Mr. Duncan knew he was exposed to Ebola. The more interesting question is

[JimDandy]

Why did he fly?...not, Why was he allowed to fly.

When did he purchase his plane ticket? After the exposure, or was this a long-planned trip? If after, did he deliberately fly to the U.S. in the hopes of being in a country where he would have a better chance of surviving than had he stayed in Liberia where the survival rate is abysmal? He would have known he had only a small window of days to get on a plane before a spiked temperature would have kept him from traveling by air.

I understand the desire for self-preservation, but it bothers me terrifically that he knew he was exposed and was willing to risk exposing others, especially when he was showing symptoms after he arrived in the U.S.

And an even more ominous question is, What is to prevent someone exposed to Ebola from purposefully traveling to another country in that small window of days with no temperature in order to cause a health havoc?

Must get to bed. Will check back in morning...

[AverageJoe90]

1. Certainly concerning.

Which is why the government should take every step possible to prevent things from getting much worse here in the States.

[TorchTheWitch]

2. I said the same thing

And I think he did know he was exposed and used the small window he had to get to the US where he would get far better treatment and not be turned away by Ebola overwhelmed hospitals in Liberia.

I don't believe he nor anyone else doing the same thing would be doing it to cause a contagion but because of being terrified they were going to die horribly and extremely quickly and want to get somewhere where they would receive far better medical treatment and thus a far better chance of survival. Why would any of these people want to deliberately cause a contagion? They aren't terrorist for heaven's sake.

I also said that in his situation I would have likely done the same thing except the second I got off the plane I would have run to the nearest hospital and told them I'd been exposed to Ebola, please quarantine and treat me now so I have a much better chance of survival and to not cause an outbreak. Maybe he thought he had enough time to first visit with his family before symptoms started and was horrified at being turned away the first time he went to the hospital.

It doesn't make sense though that he wouldn't have told them the first time he went to the hospital that he was afraid he might have been exposed to Ebola and why. Could be he just assumed that telling them he'd come from West Africa that would be all they needed to know and immediately put him in isolation. After all, that's what is being reported that the hospitals are supposed to be doing, and since he travels widely and is no dummy he probably has been keeping up with the news. Maybe saying he was from West Africa he assumed that hospital staff would know that meant one of the hot spots not realizing they may not have known what "West Africa" meant and just had a list of various countries without knowing where they were.

I still think he knew he was exposed and that he had to get out of Liberia pronto, and having relatives in the US was a very lucky thing for him.

He wasn't just going for a visit. He quit his job suddenly and without giving a reason to his employer on Sept. 4. That really raised an eyebrow for me.

[Aerows]

26. I agree with you

Maybe he didn't tell anyone at first, though, to avoid a stigma if he turned out not to have it. People don't always act rationally when they fear for their lives.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

39. Really?

He wasn't just going for a visit. He quit his job suddenly and without giving a reason to his employer on Sept. 4. That really raised an eyebrow for me.

He quit his job 11 days before he was exposed to ebola, so I don't think that's very significant.

[TorchTheWitch]

46. yes, really

It makes no difference to me when he was exposed to Ebola. Though he said he was going to the US just to visit he abruptly quit his job with no explanation before leaving for the US. The guy was in a hot zone. I don't blame him for wanting to get the hell out... geez, anyone would. I don't believe that this was just a very conveniently timed "visit". His son had been trying to convince him for awhile to come to the US, and I can certainly see why he would want to.

Once he was exposed though he KNEW he was exposed yet also knew that he'd never get on a plane when questioned at the airport if he'd said he'd been exposed. So, he said nothing about that to get on the plane nor did he when he first went to the hospital here. In a way, I can also understand that he would be afraid of being sent back if he'd admitted that he knew he'd been exposed and kept that information to himself in order to get here.

And I totally understand his wanting to get out, his plan to do it and not telling anyone he knew he'd been exposed in order to get on the plane, and when he first went to the hospital. There's know way he didn't know he'd been exposed. He's not some basic superstitious villager. He had a good job, a passport, family in the US, and would have read the news. He was also in a very fortunate position to get out and have somewhere to go with modern medicine and hospitals not up to their eyeballs with Ebola victims.

In his shoes I can't deny that I wouldn't do the same, and I understand his fear of saying he knew he'd been exposed in either trying to get here or once he did get here. I would also have lied to get on that plane, but once I got here I would have run straight to the hospital and tell them I was afraid that I had been exposed, and please isolate and treat me. But I also live here and know that I wouldn't be jailed or in any other sort of trouble or worse, sent back, and I can absolutely understand that he wouldn't know that and would have been afraid of it... far better for him if he says he had no idea he'd been exposed and rely on American medicine to realize what he had.

I can see his being terrified that the hospital didn't recognize what was wrong with him after telling him where he had just come from and being sent home, because that's not what the media and the CDC had been saying. They were all saying that hospitals were prepared and would recognize any possible Ebola victims. He'd just been through taking a member of his landlord's family where he also lived to the hospital and her being turned away to die that night back at home and her family members and neighbors also falling ill in a devastating chain reaction and had been assured by media and the CDC that it was impossible for that to happen here and that hospitals were all on the ball and would know if someone had presented with Ebola. But that's not what happened. He, too, ended up turned away, and I can completely understand how that terrified him and still keeping his mouth shut about his exposure. I can also understand his family still claiming they and him had no clue that he had Ebola. But there's no way that he didn't know or that they didn't.

I can see this from both sides... him and his family being afraid of admitting that he came here knowing he'd been exposed and not telling the hospital as well as peoples' anger about his exposing others and knowingly bringing it here. But putting yourself in his shoes and his likely fear that had he admitted once he got here that he knew he'd been exposed and kept his mouth shut about it for fear of being sent back or jailed or who knows what I can't say I wouldn't have done the same. Hell, were it me I'd be so much in terror that I would have done anything on earth to get on that plane and the fear of not knowing what would happen to me if I'd admitted to anyone that I'd known I'd been exposed, yeah, I would probably also have lied like a rug and believed that the hospital would know what I had. Self-preservation is extremely powerful, and it's in all of us.

[ecstatic]

41. It is suspicious, but if the NY Times article is true,

Mr. Duncan, the first person to develop symptoms outside Africa during the current epidemic, had direct contact with a woman stricken by Ebola on Sept. 15, just four days before he left Liberia for the United States, the woman’s parents and Mr. Duncan’s neighbors said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/02/world/africa/ebola-victim-texas-thomas-eric-duncan.html

Unless the 21 day incubation period is wrong, this guy quit his job before becoming infected. It's possible that he mistakenly thought he had already caught it and quit his job and purchased the flight to the US. That would explain his direct and prolonged encounter with his landlord's family (if he already thought he had it and was confident that he'd be cured in the US). Of course, that doesn't explain why he'd expose his wife and kids to the virus.

Alternatively, he exposed himself to the virus on purpose because he was fed up with seeing so many people dying--possibly in response to the meme about Ebola's cure being 50 white people away? That still doesn't explain exposing his family, unless he was aiming for an indirect murder-suicide (but was taken aback by how ill he became and decided to get care?). Or maybe he thought the whole family would be cured and it wouldn't be a big deal?

[TorchTheWitch]

47. see my post #46

That should probably explain it.

[LostInAnomie]

3. I'd say he probably knew he was exposed.

You would have to be beyond ignorant to not see the writing on the wall after he came in physical contact with that dying woman.

Unless we quarantine the area it's probably going to keep happening because there is nothing in place to stop it.

[CoffeeCat]

35. Do you know what kind of contact the man had with the dying woman?

I am just curious about this man who was in Liberia. You mentioned that he came into contact with a
dying woman.

I am wondering what kind of contact this was?

Was this very close contact where they were exchanging body fluids? Or was he just around her, in the same vicinity?

I'm curious about how someone contracts Ebola. I know it's not airborne, but what exactly has to happen for the virus to be spread?

Those are questions I'm wondering about, and I was interested if anyone knew about the particular contact this man had with this dying woman?

Thank you for any info.

[LostInAnomie]

36. From all the reports I read...

... he helped carry her from a taxi to her home because she was to weak and consumed with the disease to make it.

[CoffeeCat]

43. Isn't that interesting?

I wonder if this strain of Ebola is mutating, which is why I'm so interested. This virus is mutating rapidly, and it's having plenty of chances to do so, with tens of thousands being infected.

If he carried her, I'm assuming the contact was brief.

What could she have done that gave him Ebola…coughed on him? Threw up on him? I'm just thinking out loud--and wondering about this virus.

We've had Ebola outbreaks before in Africa, but nothing like this. Just wondering if the virus is more easily transmitted.

Thank for answering.

[LostInAnomie]

44. I believe she died the next day.

Which means when he was in contact with her she was probably as saturated with the disease as you could get. She was probably in clothes that she had sweated/vomited/bleeded on profusely.

I also believe she was his neighbor.

[grasswire]

4. local news in Portland tonight is headlining the fact that the same plane..

....was on the ground here in Portland just hours after the ebola patient disembarked in Dallas. It also was here in Portland tonight. Lotta people nervous, unnecessarily.

[alcibiades_mystery]

5. If that was the case he wouldn't have left the hospital the first time

He would have told them he had just come from Liberia and started yelling Ebola and gotten treated immediately.

Who hatches a plan to fly to the US to get treated for Ebola but leaves the hospital with antibiotics and assurance that he just has a minor infection?

Nobody. It's preposterous.

[LisaL]

9. He did tell them he was from Liberia.

Hospital claims that the nurse didn't fully communicate that to the rest of his treating team.

[alcibiades_mystery]

11. The point of the OP is that he deliberately and deceitfully traveled to the US for treatment

since he knew he had been infected. That's the thrust and claim and argument of the OP.

If that was the case, he would have insisted on being treated the FIRST time he went to the hospital. He would not have left the hospital with a bottle of antibiotics. Who travels from Africa to Dallas to obtain treatment for a disease but then gives up when a hospital sends him home with some pills? It's a ludicrous proposition.

Besides, we know that he quit his job in early September in anticipation of the trip to the US, for which he had already obtained a travel visa. Weeks before his exposure. So the OP is simply false.

[JimDandy]

25. He couldn't have known he was infected. He certainly knew he had been exposed.

I explained in the post below what I think might have been his mental process (hope against hope) involving the first hospital visit. His trust in professionals, lack of assertiveness and unfamiliarity with the U.S.health care system, and the hospital's failure to literally 'catch a clue' didn't help.

(As an aside, one of the things the federal govt has been focusing on is reducing the number of second visits to the ER for the same thing, under penalty of the hospital receiving less funding if they don't manage to get those numbers down. Mr. Duncan's treatment being a case in point.)

The whole point of my original OP was to ask, not claim anything. Thanks for providing the info about Mr. Duncan quitting his job and getting a travel visa prior to the Ebola exposure from his neighbor.

[JimDandy]

22. I suspect he had a case of "hope against hope"

which could be why he flew to the U.S. in the first place and then why he felt reassured that he hadn't actually contracted Ebola after the professional health care workers (to whom he DID tell he was from Liberia, a fact which the hospital has now admitted) released him from the hospital with just antibiotics. People do this kind of thinking all the time when dealing with professionals they trust to know better then them.

Had I been him, though, I would have made sure to tell them that I had transported a sick pregnant neighbor to a hospital in Liberia and that she died of Ebola the day after transporting her.

In any case, the hospital had enough info to have suspected Ebola, and the blame for the additional cases of exposure (and delay in Mr. Duncan's treatment and the delay in identification of everyone he contacted up until he was admitted the second time) after that first visit are squarely on the hospital.

[treestar]

37. And get a ticket at that short notice

I'm thinking he already had the ticket.

[ZombieHorde]

6. We can't control everything.

We tried after 9/11, with some really crappy results, in my opinion. If someone comes up with something clever, then fine, but I would rather we just roll with the punches if our other option is to be what I would consider to be overly restrictive.

There is a lot of death and destruction that we can address on this planet without fucking other people over. I would much rather help people who want to be helped, such as starving people, than go oppress people.

[pnwmom]

7. If he was thinking this clearly, then why did he wait two whole days after he got symptoms

before going to the hospital? And why didn't he shout it to the rooftops when they wanted to send him home?

[Javaman]

8. because there was nothing in place to prevent him.

did they close flights from Liberia? no.

did they quarantine Monrovia? no.

should the man have shown a little bit more common sense? sure.

the list goes on and on.

[seveneyes]

10. Nobody should be allowed to leave the hotzones without 20+ days isolation first

Why are we allowing the plague to leave its origin? Blatant stupidity or ignorance in spades.

[TBF]

20. As is often the answer - oil.

Not directly of course, but there are many folks in Africa working in oil & gas with our executives here in the states. This involves a lot of $$$ which is why it hasn't been halted yet. Folks fly back and forth to attend seminars, do deals, etc ... It's no surprise to see the first case of Ebola in TX - in fact I suspected it would be here in Houston given the international nature of this city (combined with the oil & gas industry). But there are also tons of corporations headquartered in Dallas.

[planodemocratic]

12. I agree, I think he knew he was exposed.

I agree, I think he knew he was exposed before he got on that airplane and potentially exposed thousands. Because of that window of "now having a fever", but still having been exposed is there - until this is all under control we should not allow anyone in the US from the hot zones. How could he have not known he was exposed. Just days before he got on the plane he physically carried a pregnant lady to the ER in Liberia, which she was turned away due to overcrowding. The pregnant lady died of Ebola just the day before he got on the plan. He knew he was at high-risk and he should have never got on the plane. I agree with you, the question is: "Why did he fly?...not, Why was he allowed to fly."

[gopiscrap]

45. Welcome to DU!!

[herding cats]

13. As to when his trip was planned; he had to apply for a visa to travel to the US from Liberia

I've seen it speculated he knew he was exposed and decided to travel to the US for treatment. That's not possible considering when he was exposed and when he arrived. He couldn't have possibly gotten the paperwork arranged for the trip in such a short time.

As to why he traveled here after being exposed, hopefully Mr. Duncan will live to tell the tale and settle that for all of us.

[alcibiades_mystery]

14. He received his visa in early September, weeks before the exposure

The OP is just empirically and factually wrong about the entire claim.

[herding cats]

15. Thank you for the information on when he actually did receive his visa.

I knew with the process of application there was no way he could have been exposed and then got his documentation for travel, but I didn't know when his application was approved. If you can recall where you saw this I'd love to have the link. I've run into a few people who don't understand the process and are speculating along the same path as the OP.

[alcibiades_mystery]

17. From the New York Times

"Mr. Duncan worked at a shipping company in Monrovia, the capital of Liberia, but quit his job in early September. Neighbors said he had gotten a visa to visit family in the United States."

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/10/01/us/retracing-the-steps-of-the-dallas-ebola-patient.html

It's not an official date, but I'm sure the State Department knows when the actual visa was issued.

[herding cats]

21. Thank you!

It helps greatly to nip this latest round of speculation in the bud even without a specific date. I appreciate the link.

[planodemocratic]

23. He knew he was exposed.

I agree with you, he couldn't have known he was exposed when he got his paperwork to come to the US, but he knew he was exposed before he got on the airplane. The person he was exposed to died just a day before he got on the plane. All of the people exposed due to him being here are under a 21 day quarantine. He should have been under a 21 day quarantine too before he got on that airplane.

[herding cats]

24. Yes, he did know.

As to why he chose to travel after being exposed we'll just have to wait and see what he has to say if he makes it.

[librechik]

16. all you have to do is read the ignorance and entitlement in some of the ebola threads here

to realize why it happened. People are not perfect and mistakes get made and lies get covered up. That is what I expect.

And why rosy scenarios are not to be expected, even in the exceptional US, with it's exceptional medical system (exceptionally bad) When dealing with epidemics you have to expect the worst, just for safety's sake.

[JimDandy]

28. My question was more to why this one individual

made the decision to travel knowing that he had been exposed. It was really more of a psychological questioning pushed by my musing as to whether I would have done the same thing for self preservation.

I have decided I might have done the approximate scenario knowing that:
1. I was definitely exposed to Ebola;
2. I wouldn't be contagious until symptoms present;
3. Ebola has what appears to be a set window of time between exposure and when symptoms present;
4. I had enough money for a ticket, an airplane seat was available, and I had the necessary travel documents already;
5. I traveled during that window only;
6. The country I was traveling from has shown it is not equipped to handle Ebola and thus my ability to survive the disease there is reduced to near zero;
7. The country I am traveling to has a good health care system in place and in fact has cured people of Ebola with an experimental drug it produces;
8. I would go immediately to a hospital on landing and tell them unequivocally that I am absolutely positive I have been exposed to Ebola.

Mr. Duncan was fortunate that he had everything needed in #4 (due to having an already purchased ticket) in order to travel during the safe window. Unfortunately, he diverged from me at #8-the last and most important step.

[librechik]

30. I get you, and so would I

I take it back, I would not have flown. But most human are not as grounded and civil minded as we are. I assume these incidents will become somewhat common as the epidemic proceeds.

[JimDandy]

32. I believe your assessment is correct. n/t

[ProdigalJunkMail]

31. ebola presents symptoms in 2 to 21 days

so unless you could travel within two days... you're at risk for developing symptoms in transit. and to assume that you will not be contagious is ridiculous. if he survives he should be charged with, at a minimum, reckless endangerment and, at a maximum, attempted murder... and murder if anyone dies as a result of exposure to him.

he knew... and he traveled... fuck everyone else.

sP

[JimDandy]

38. My scenario is based on the wider window I have seen quoted most often.

Last edited Thu Oct 2, 2014, 05:13 PM - Edit history (2)

and my understanding from CDC statements is that Ebola is not contagious unless the afflicted person is symptomatic.

If it was a carefully calculated risk based on knowledge and hope (and not "fuck everyone else&quot , then I can sympathize with Mr. Duncan, while at the same time being taken aback by his actions after he arrived.

eta spelling etc

[ProdigalJunkMail]

40. 2 to 21 days... that is the window

most present within 6 days... if you have been exposed and travel your attitude is 'fuck everyone else... i am more important than the lives of these people'... period.

sP

[TBF]

18. If we're honest any of us

would have done the same thing in that situation. Ebola in Liberia is often a death sentence.

[Baitball Blogger]

19. Survival is a human trait.

Expect more similar cases to arise. The more people are convinced that their countries cannot handle the situation, the more they will be drawn to countries where they think they have a chance to survive.

Which is why it would have been wise for the Republicans to release more funds to handle this situation.

[haele]

27. He travelled while exposed but *not contagious*.

Much more responsible than those who are exposed to TB and are contagious who travel on planes...
If I were him, I'd fly back to my relatives in the US, too - and wait out the incubation period of up to a month to see if I started coming down with flu symptoms (and still not be contagious!) and then hope the hospital I go to will diagnose me properly and put me into isolation after I tell them where I was.

Hospital f'ed up here. Mr. Duncan - an educated young man who had lived in the US previously - was just trying to improve his chances of survival should he have actually caught the disease and used every means available to him.
I would never try to compare his actions to Spock saving the Enterprise and crew by nobly stepping into the core reactor...

60% - 70% fatality rate and a miserable time dying in Liberia? You'd bet I'd do the same thing in his shoes if I had a chance...

Haele

[JimDandy]

29. I agree. n/t

[ecstatic]

42. Ebola becomes contagious once symptoms emerge. Symptoms might include headache, sore throat,

muscle pain, abdominal pain, and other things that might be overlooked/brushed off if they're not all happening at the same time. Maybe he didn't have a fever when boarding the first flight, but do we know he didn't have a headache on the flight? Or that he didn't feel muscle pain and weakness? Or abdominal pain?

What are typical signs and symptoms of infection?

Sudden onset of fever, intense weakness, muscle pain, headache and sore throat are typical signs and symptoms. This is followed by vomiting, diarrhea, rash, impaired kidney and liver function, and in some cases, both internal and external bleeding.

Laboratory findings include low white blood cell and platelet counts, and elevated liver enzymes.

The incubation period, or the time interval from infection to onset of symptoms, is from 2 to 21 days. The patients become contagious once they begin to show symptoms. They are not contagious during the incubation period.

[JI7]

33. no

[IVoteDFL]

34. Well you can't just show up in the US any time you please

He must have applied for a visa before the exposure. I honestly think Mr. Duncan just got lucky in that he was exposed just before he was already scheduled to travel here.

Instead of worrying about a potential health havoc in other countries we should focus on the ones who are already facing a crisis and maybe these poor souls wont feel compelled to travel to places for a better shot at survival. I can't say I fault the guy for coming here, even if he knew he was exposed. He wants to live as much as you or I do.

[SoCalDem]

48. Visa was applied for on 9-2

He probably did know he might be exposed, but when your life is in danger, you do whatever it takes to preserve your life.

He should have self-isolated from his family once he arrived though and should have clued them in as well..

There are probably other who have access to the funds for travel who are leaving as well..some infected, others not..

This is how epidemics work..

He will be in big trouble when he goes home...and I doubt that anyone here will be eager to grant him asylum..