US cancels food aid to North Korea: That'll teach Koreans who's the boss!

[Better Believe It]

How dare those Koreans attempt to launch a weather satellite in defiance of the United States and other peaceful anti-war nations!
We'll show those Koreans who's boss. Cut off their food! That'll teach em! BBI


US cancels food aid to North Korea after missile launch, warns of more sanctions
By Kristen Welker, NBC News, and Ian Johnston, msnbc.com
April 13, 2012

The United States has canceled a proposed food aid deal with North Korea following over its attempt to launch a long-range rocket taking a satellite into orbit.

Senior administration officials told NBC News the deal with Pyongyang is off after the rocket was fired. It failed shortly after launch and landed in the sea off the South Korea coast.

"We are not going forward with an agreement to provide them with any assistance," White House National Security Council spokesman Ben Rhodes told reporters traveling with President Barack Obama to Florida.

U.S. Senate Republican Whip Jon Kyl said in a statement that the missile launch was "yet another provocative action undertaken by the regime in Pyongyang."

http://worldnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/04/13/11177478-us-cancels-food-aid-to-north-korea-after-missile-launch-warns-of-more-sanctions?lite

Any more ideas on how we can really put the economic squeeze on the working people of North Korea? Is there someway "we" can cutoff their water or deny them oxygen? BBI

[Zalatix]

1. Don't worry, the GOP is about to suggest we replace food aid with another Free Trade Agreement.

More Americans will now starve so that we can bring jobs to the poor abroad.

If you oppose that then you are a John Birch Society member.

[Better Believe It]

6. Good one!

[quinnox]

2. Well, as part of the Axis of Evil they don't deserve our food

Food aid goes to people in North Korea and we have to punish the evil doers.

[Better Believe It]

7. Right. And that will turn the Korean people against their government and make them love us!

[MineralMan]

14. I really doubt that much of our food aid

goes to ordinary people in NK. I think most of it goes to the nomenklatura there. The government of that country is not particularly concerned with the well-being of its citizenry, by all accounts.

[SwampG8r]

136. actually

i would imagine most is resold and the cash ends up in the hands of the nomenklatura
these fellows always land on a big pile of cash when they finally fall


and while i have you
very brave thing with the free republic thread and others growing from it
i found it oddly moving and thank you for it

[MineralMan]

143. Thank you for that.

[TheWraith]

3. So you really believes their claim that a ballistic missile is a "weather satellite"?

And yet, even the most factual and obvious announcements of the US government is met with total unjustified contrarianism. Go figure.

[FSogol]

26. At least we now know who he is promoting in the primaries.

Kim Jong Un

[SomethingFishy]

67. So you really believe that withholding food

is an intelligent response to a failed ballistic missile test?

And yet, even the most stupid and cold blooded policies of the US government are met with pure adulation and reverence.

[MrBig]

71. It's not that simple

You make it sound like the US is withholding food from the starving North Korean populace because their government conducted a failed ballistic missile test.

The North Korean government is starving their own people. The food shipments aren't going to the starving, they're going to the elite. It'd be like sending food shipments to the US, only it goes to Obama, Boehner, Bush, etc.

[SATIRical]

107. First, the US does not OWE NK food

And officials stated before the launch that they would lose that gift if they chose to launch. Which do they need more: food or a "weather satellite"? Well, we saw their choice.

But yet you want to make the US the bad guy here. Really?

[teddy51]

4. Sorry, but I think it is the correct thing to do by the US. Why should NK be able to spend

millions on launching satellites, and the US pay for their groceries?

[quitnesset]

33. agreed

sending them food now is the same as subsidizing their "satellite" launches

[BlueDemKev]

72. agree #2

[joshcryer]

122. Yes, it is unfortunate that US policy allows NK military industrial complex to foster.

But then I have seen it argued here that nuclear proliferation is a good thing, so it does not surprise me.

For what it's worth the food aid will likely be reinstated in a month or two at most. It's just used as a signal to the North Korean people that the "good thing" that happened is in fact "not a good thing." Basically when the nuclear test happened we stopped the food for four months, the North Korean people were forced to listen to propaganda about how almighty their leaders was, but their plates did not in fact reflect that almightiness. It's the only way to really send that signal.

[2ndAmForComputers]

130. The militaristic bullcrap will continue unimpeded and their people will starve even more.

Do you really think anything other than that will happen as a result of this decision?

[MineralMan]

5. You're a fan of NK's militarism and insane leadership?

The only leverage we have with that country is just what we're using.

I'm sorry, but this seems a bit over the top, really.

[Comrade Grumpy]

10. Over the top...

...is accusing the poster of being a "fan" of the North Korean leadership because he criticizes US policy there.

[MineralMan]

12. I made no accusation. I asked a question.

There is a difference, and it's a real difference.

[GeorgeGist]

32. I saw what you did there.

[whatchamacallit]

60. Oh, I see...

Like this:
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-september-13-2006/the-question-mark

[sabrina 1]

47. Just where did you get the idea that the OP is a 'fan' of an enemy of the US? That is a pretty

serious charge for which you surely have some proof.

A lot of things are over the top on DU lately, this rates pretty low on the 'over the top' scale.

[MineralMan]

51. It was a question, as you can see.

On another note, I have changed my opinion about DU's Ignore feature.

[frylock]

63. you're a fan of starving children?

[MineralMan]

65. I'm not starving any children in North Korea.

I can't say the same for the leadership of that country. So, no, I'm not a fan of that, and neither is the Obama Administration.

I am, however, changing my policy of not using DU's Ignore feature.

[frylock]

73. you keep saying that..

so just click the fucking button already.

[treestar]

84. You're a fan of their parents letting things stay as they are?

Why do these people keep worshipping the Kims?

Why are they entitled to us feeding them?

[Nevernose]

100. Seriously?

Offhand, I'd say it's because they're in one of the most insular countries in the world with virtually no knowledge not given to them by their own government. They're trained from birth that the ruling family are God's living incarnations. Anyone who does have contact with the outside world is a member if the ruling class, will have their families murdered if they speak out, or both.

[treestar]

104. Well they'll still have to do something

I don't guess you'd support US going to war to overthrow their despots?

And why not rag on other countries too? Don't the British have a duty to give them food, too?

[Nevernose]

114. I never took a position in the OP

I was, however, a little shocked that you didn't seem to understand why the North Koreans don't rise up against the ruling family.

[treestar]

116. It has happened in other countries

What is so shocking about expecting them to do that?

Especially in light of the OP, who thinks it is somehow all OUR fault and OUR responsibility.

[SATIRical]

108. And giving the leadership food

to give to the people and claim it is from NK, not the US, perpetuates and strengthens that insularity (if that is a real word).

[sabrina 1]

92. Yes, I saw the 'have you stopped beating your wife' type question.

I asked a genuine question, which you chose not to answer I guess.

As for changing your mind on ignore, I guess you now agree with BBI http://www.democraticunderground.com/124068693 on that subject.

[joshcryer]

121. That was a rhetorical question.

"You're" as opposed to "are you."

[treestar]

81. Saying the food we gave them was their entitlement?

No matter how they provoked us?

[sabrina 1]

86. The accusation was one of treason, using the old 'have you stopped beating your wife yet'

tactic. Are you agreeing with that? If you find someone saying we should not do to N. Korean civilians what was done to Iraqi children, to be treasonous, or to come even close to some of what has been said by the author of that charge, then our priorities differ greatly.

Maybe people ought to attend to their own business rather than judge others, especially those who have been so, so very wrong just about everything for most of their lives, wouldn't you agree?

[white_wolf]

91. That's got to be the worst post I've seen on DU all day. n/t

[DisgustipatedinCA]

8. I'm not one of your detractors, but we damn well should have cancelled food aid

It's not as though we have any control over how they distribute that food aid anyway, and I'm relatively certain that they don't send much of the grain to their gulag system, where they send people to work and starve until they die.

[Robb]

23. NK has repeatedly thwarted international efforts to monitor aid distribution.

Observers are corralled and isolated, chain of custody is nonexistent.

The distribution system is so institutionally corrupt that cutting off "food aid" actually hurts this particular regime. That's why it's a good move.

As an aside, there's no propaganda value to telling a starving people they'll really be starving now, thanks to America -- everyone inside the country not part of the power structure already knows they're starving, and where the blame truly lies.

...Outside the borders there's some propaganda value, but even then not much.

[Comrade Grumpy]

9. Gotta love our very own DU realpolitikers: "Let 'em starve. That'll show 'em."

[MrBig]

13. Given the North Korean government...

Is there any reason to believe the food aid is actually going to the people who need food?

[babylonsister]

24. No reason whatsoever=good point. nt

[aquart]

25. Really good point.

Just like aid to Gaza only gets distributed to the top of Hamas.

[Johnny Rico]

17. The people of North Korea starve whether we send them food or not.

[Better Believe It]

28. And how does "starving" the population help undermine the bureaucratic regime? Links please!

Do you really think a thin layer of government and military bureaucrats can gobble up all the food shipments. And of course they surely would not want to distribute any food to the masses because that would strengthen the regime!

That scenario makes absolutely no political sense at all and one doesn't have to be a rocket scientist in North Korea to figure that out!

Please don't accept propaganda or lame political excuses in defense of starving the Korean people.

I waiting for someone to explain how stopping food shipments to North Korea will help the Korean people and make them love us.

[MrBig]

35. WE aren't starving the North Korean people

Their own government is starving them.

I bet the North Korean people have absolutely no clue that we were even sending food shipments. And they'll have no clue that we've stopped. Sending or not sending food makes absolutely no difference to the well being of most poor North Korean families.

Don't you wonder how and why they were able to launch this rocket, regardless of its purpose, yet so many people there are starving to the point where the international community is needing to send food?

[Codeine]

58. Ask the people who are starving them,

namely the government of North Korea.

[treestar]

83. They could grow their own food!

They choose not to feed their own people. Why does that make it our duty than any other country's?

And you probably think WE should rise up and riot. Well then they certainly should.

[bluestate10]

94. The North Korean government is starving the people.

That is a fact. Also, unless US citizens can deliver food aid directly to the people that need food.

[FSogol]

27. You'd rather have a war than economic sanctions?

[hack89]

42. Perhaps NK should spend their money on food and not missiles?

why should we subsidize their missile program?

[sabrina 1]

48. Yes, it will work out just like Iraq, where over half a million children died as a result of

those sanctions. We never learn.

[msanthrope]

11. You actually think that was a weather satellite? nt

[MineralMan]

16. Well, it's nothing at all, now.

It 'sploded real good.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

19. I think it probably was a weather satellite, but the satellite part was a mere adronment

They were testing a ballistic missile system. That which can deliver a satellite into space can also deliver multiple impact reentry vehicle warheads.

[Better Believe It]

34. Warheads that Korea doesn't have and won't have for a very long time.

"That which can deliver a satellite into space can also deliver multiple impact reentry vehicle warheads."

Not this rocket!

The small low-thrust Korean rocket could no more become an multiple warhead ICBM than the old Vanguard rockets of NASA.

And if it could, but it can't, what's your point?

And if your point is that North Korea would become a nuclear armed danger do you think we should disarm Israel's dangerous 200+ nuclear arsenal and threaten them with economic sanctions if they refuse our dictates?

[DisgustipatedinCA]

46. Here's what I think, BBI

-I think....no, I know that North Korea is a world pariah.
-I know that North Korea has a system of gulags that sends approximately 150-200K people into this system, with no trial, no adjudication.
-They never come out of the gulag. They work, they starve, they die (unless they're shot first).
-North Korea has hundreds of thousands of mortars aimed directly at Seoul.
-Those mortars can be delivered to this giant population center within a matter of minutes, and there's not a thing we can do to stop them if they start firing.
-I think the launch pad for this rocket is twice as large as it needs to be. Guess what that means.
-I think that the leaders of North Korea have amply demonstrated that they'll slaughter their own in huge numbers for their own personal gain.
-I think that North Korea is going to be belligerent about this failed launch no matter what we do. Young'Un is under extreme pressure to prove he's a worthy leader, and no amount of food aid on our part, or threatening on our part, or 5-country talks is going to keep NK from being belligerent.
-I think that North Korea will be conducting an underground nuclear test within a matter of weeks.
-I think that North Korea reneged on their agreement not to test launches.
-I think North Korea is about to renege on their agreement not to conduct nuclear tests.
-I think North Korea is capable of becoming the largest security threat in the world within a matter of minutes, when they so choose.
-I think that EVERY SINGLE CITIZEN of North Korea who isn't part of top leadership is living a miserable, miserable existence.
-I DO NOT think this is propaganda, and I don't think I was born yesterday.
-I think that the danger of killing a million South Koreans within a matter of minutes is, for the present, the greatest danger that North Korea poses.
-I also think that they'll pose a much greater danger when they have long-range ballistic missile systems and more nuclear-tipped warheads, and that their menace will spread far beyond the Korean Peninsula and Japan.

---

Here's what else I think:

-I think that the US should tell Israel that aid will be curtailed or cut off if they don't become better players on the world stage, most especially in relation to their policies toward and treatment of Palestinians.
-I think that Israel should be required to admit the existence of their nuclear arsenal.
-I think that the US should not have a kill vote in the permanent UN Security Council when matters of Israel are concerned (and I feel the same way about Russia and China, and their client states--yeah, I said client states).

[Better Believe It]

20. What kind of a satellite do you think it was?

It could have been but if you know for certain that it wasn't please post your information.

I think either it was a very simple basic weather satellite or a communications device similiar to Russia's first satellite launched in 1957.

I'd guess it was a pretty small satellite because their rocket doesn't look much more powerful or bigger than the old "Vanguard" rocket used to launch our satellites in 1957-59.

[Freddie Stubbs]

38. Great Successor would never do anything underhanded

[Swede]

15. Maybe they should buy food instead of building "weather satellites".

And nuclear technology.

[Cali_Democrat]

18. LOL

It was a weather satellite? Are you sure?

[MrBig]

21. Do you also believe Kim Jong Il...

shot a 38 on an 18 hole golf course, including 11 holes in one?

Me thinks not everything that comes out of North Korea is the truth.

[hughee99]

29. And not just that, I believe it was his first time golfing. n/t

[Better Believe It]

36. Do you believe that everything Washington politicians say is the truth?

Me thinks that not everything that comes out of Washington is the truth.

Lots of lying by both the "axis of evil" and the "anti-evil powers".

So what's your point?

That the North Korean regime is building a massive ICBM system with hundred of nuclear bombs in preparation for a "surprise" nucelar attack on the United States in order to take over North America?

Hell, that's straight out of the cold war 50's!

[MrBig]

39. Wow, you put a LOT of irrelevant words into my mouth

Frankly, I don't see the relevance of my opinion on Washington politicians as that isn't at issue at all here.

You are the one who thinks the US should continue sending food aid to North Korea. I say that North Korea has given us no reason to think that the food is actually going to those who need it.

Even if they hadn't launched the rocket, I would question the intelligence of sending food aid to North Korea. What proof do you have that this food is getting to the people who need food?

[Better Believe It]

66. Do you think they are hiding food in their rockets?

And exactly how much food assistance has been given to the Korean people so far this year?

Well, the U.S. cutting off food assistance should certainly help the Korean people overcome their regime.

How do you think the North Korean government will pitch this to the general population?

The North Korean regime thanks the west for their helpful action .... of course they can't publicly do that.

Yup .... this action should be pretty damn powerful and convince the Korean people to embrace that great caring democracy in the west.

Ugly American? Nah! Just pretty compassionate and anti-war politicians in government like the good Senator and Republican leader Jon Kyl who regurgitates 1950's cold war propaganda.

[MrBig]

70. Huh?

How do I think the North Korean government will pitch this to the general population? They won't. Because the general population doesn't know about it. Because the government suppresses information. Do you think the general population even knew that the US was giving them food?

And yes, I think the US cutting off any supplies to the elite in North Korea will help the general population overcome those same elite. Because if you think anybody other than the elite are getting any of that food or other supplies, then I would recommend reading more about the government there and how they operate.

[treestar]

85. You didn't answer the question

Everything out of DC may not be true, but more of it than comes out of NK.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

59. They do have top-notch weather forecasters, you'll have to give them that.

Here's Johnny Mountain's forecast (Tina Fey's 30 Rock):

"

"

[bluestate10]

95. No. But anything to trash President Obama is fair game for some. nt

[aquart]

22. Naive, much?

We have nothing else to negotiate with. Sadly, NK doesn't mind if its people starve. BUT HOW COMPLETELY RIDICULOUS TO PUT THAT ON US. Anyone else in the world is perfectly free to feed them if they feel like it. NK can choose to spend its money on food instead of military display. But it doesn't.

It is ARROGANT to assume that we are in charge here. Arrogant and racist. As if the poor dumb North Koreans can't survive without our beneficence.

The new leader is trying to prove he has a penis so that nobody will kill him. If thousands, hundreds of thousands of his own people die so that he can save his own worthless hide, he doesn't mind a bit. That ain't on us. It is up to the North Koreans to murder this young clown. Or die. That's their choice. It sucks.

But what on earth makes you think that we are their masters and should make those decisions for them?

[bluestate10]

96. Not naive. Read posts by the OP. You will develop a true picture of what is happening. nt

[GeorgeGist]

30. Aw Jeez ...

[cali]

31. you are impressively predictable

[Better Believe It]

37. Do you have any suggestions on how we can really stick it to the Korean people?

[bluestate10]

97. Distortion of the first order.

North Korean leaders are sticking it to their people, like dictators typically do. The basic issue is simple, North Korean leaders either work to feed the people of their country, or they chose to not feed their people. North Korean leaders are obvious in the choice that they are making.

[Better Believe It]

98. And how is the U.S. denying food aide helping the Korean people .... what do you say to them?

Do you really think the denial of food assistance won't have any impact on the average Korean person and that Koreans will greet Americans with flowers and kisses when the regime tells them about that action?

[Wait Wut]

40. No, it won't.

But, it sure as hell will teach them we aren't on board with their bullshit.

As others have stated in this "thread", there is no proof that any of that aid reaches the starving people of NK. The only proof we have of anything is that they are consistent liars. I'm much more concerned about the neighbors that they constantly taunt and threaten. Countries that treat their citizens like humans and not cattle.

My only hope is that the citizens of NK see that "weather satellite" as not only a failure of their leadership, but lost opportunities to feed their children. That country is in desperate need of an enema and maybe this little failed threatrical display will light a flame in the hearts and minds of their young people.

Let China send them aid. Hell, even China is sick of their bullshit.

I really hate kicking your thread, and have avoided doing so since I started posting on DU. This time, it's more personal. I'm not rolling my eyes at this one.

Fucking Unrec.

[Muskypundit]

90. +1

[chrisa]

41. Why do you think we have an obligation to give them food?

We just use food as a bargaining chip with them anyways. That's the way it's always been with North Korea.

When the food aid is cut off, it keeps North Korea in line, and from doing something insane.

[MineralMan]

43. Pick your battles, BBI.

This one won't wash, I'm afraid. NK uses our food aid to oppress its people, not to feed them. It's the real "Hunger Games" over there. Want food? Come celebrate the supreme leader's golf game!

[quinnox]

44. lol, you giving "advice", especially in light of recent revelations, is

something else!

[MineralMan]

45. Irrelevant.

I have recently changed my opinion on DU's Ignore feature, BTW.

[dionysus]

131. get back to me when MM posts whack ass OPs like this one...

rofl:

[Throd]

49. Why on Earth should we give the North Korean government a dime's worth of aid?

[Better Believe It]

99. Because we give extreme right-wing regimes and dictatorships billions every year to maintain them?

And no political demands are made on those governments!

But, those regimes are not part of George W. Bush's "axis of evil"!

Ahhhhh .... that explains it!

[RZM]

129. You're seriously going to try to justify it like that?

By pointing to rw regimes and saying: 'Why not NK too?!'

I thought the former was a bad thing?

[Codeine]

50. The massive failures of the North Korean system are our fault?

We aren't starving anybody -- the people of NK are being starved by their own regime. If their government wants our yummy handouts then they can abide by the rules we put forth regarding aid, or they can refuse and figure out how to eat without our food shipments.

Perhaps a few less dollars spent on failed experiments with rocketry and a few more bucks spent on noms might be a good plan for North Korea.

[sabrina 1]

54. No, Bush is responsible for where the US stands today with problem of N Korea

He destroyed South Korea's 'Sunshine Policy' which was backed by Clinton. A return to those policies, which did not resolve the issues, but was moving in a better direction, eg, N. Korea had agreed to allow inspectors in and was agreeing to talk to the S. Korean leader.

Bush's policies have failed everywhere. Sanctions will only harden the North Koreans and bolster their claims that they need Nuclear power because they have enemies who will do them what was done to Iraq.

Of course with all the damage done to what were already very delicate diplomatic efforts, by the Bush warmongers, Obama was handed those problems when he took office. They need Carter again, who played a key role in helping to move things in the right direction during the Clinton administration.

[Codeine]

57. Completely irrelevant to the question of whether we have an innate responsibility

to feed the people of North Korea when their own idiotic government refuses to do so. Bush was an idiot, yes -- but nobody forced the imbeciles that run that benighted chunk of land to go the direction they went.

[whatchamacallit]

61. Yes, let's punish the people for their poor choice in dictators

Charity and aid should be politics free.

[SATIRical]

110. And people should be able to eat unicorn poop

You are free to send food over there. How much have you sent so far?

[whatchamacallit]

112. Only 161 before you start leaking RW gas

Enjoy your visit.

[SATIRical]

113. Reality is not a RW meme

Sure, it would be nice if our (political) gov't didn't involve politics to give something free to another nation.

But that is reality. Always has been, probably always will be, as long as humans are involved.

And my point was that so many people think that "someone" should do things like send food to the NK people. However that "someone" is usually "someone else". Why haven't you sent any?

My guess is because A) it is expensive or B) you realize it would never make it to the people who need it.

So deep down you understand reality. I'm just willing to face reality when typing my thoughts as well.

And feel free to call that RW if it helps protect your fragile reality from the real world.

[sabrina 1]

64. That is not really the question. The question is, will sanctions achieve the goal of influencing

any positive changes in N. Korea's current policies. Have sanctions ever succeeded in accomplishing anything positive? They certainly did not work in Iraq, and only resulted in the deaths of half a million children and eventually a disastrous war, BECAUSE they did not work and Bush and his warmongers were able to use the failures to bolster their arguments against their former ally.

Do you have any examples of sanctions working? I can't think of any.

[Codeine]

76. I made no claim as to the effectiveness of the sanction decision.

I merely pointed out that we are in no way even vaguely responsible for the care and feeding of the North Korean people. If we choose to send food aid that's good, but we're under no obligation to do so if the regime continues deliberate acts of political provocation.

[Ikonoklast]

78. South Africa.

[sabrina 1]

79. Yes, to an extent. But there is a lot of disagreement as to how much of an effect they had.

Combined with all the other opposition tactics, according to many observers, they played a role. There were different kinds of sanctions against the S. African Government, some private, others by Governments. Some Corps eg, voluntarily agreed to raise the standards of workers, without their Governments' assistance. Mainly it was the continued fight inside the country, the huge demonstrations, the violence, the fact which became obvious over time, that the fight would not end until Apartheid did helped by the efforts of various kinds of actions from the International community, that finally ended Apartheid.

Iow, sanctions by Governments alone, would have had little if any effect since Corporations found ways around them. The voluntary participation of private Corps and Banks were more successful as no one was looking for ways to get around them.

The fight has to come from the people and that is what happened in S. Africa. In N. Korea so far there is no sign of the people rising up against their Government, most likely because they would be crushed.

Clinton's and Carter's policies re N. Korea together with S. Korea's own efforts and some cooperation at the time, influenced by 'carrots' rather than sticks, from the N. Koreans, have been the most successful so far.

[joshcryer]

120. North Korea's nuclear tests and increased MIC ended the Sunshine Policy.

North and South Korea rightly ignored Bush's preposterous axis of evil rhetoric and paid no heed to his "foreign policy" which was nothing but childish petulance, but North Korea continued its military industrial complex. South Korea kept the Sunshine Policy even after the North attacked the South in 2002 and killed 6 South Koreans. South Korea kept the Sunshine Policy even after the North did a nuclear test in 2006. The North's continued militarization made the South Korean people afraid and they finally elected a right winger who ended the policy.

[NuttyFluffers]

138. thank you. someone who actually remembers history.

when i was there were some young students who wanted a continuation of the sunshine policy, but they were unable to point to any tangible successes. well, there was the routine hostage situation at the joint ROK/PDRK factory, which ended up with more concessions to the PDRK... but other than that, ROK got less than nothing; they got flagrant assaults, hostage crises, and brinksmanship.

at some point you gotta throw your hands up and say, 'hey china, mind your rabid dog lest it causes greater regional problems.'

the PDRK ain't anyone's friend but their own. time to get used to it.

[joshcryer]

141. Yeah, it's hard to blame the South Korean people for voting in people that ended it.

North Korea just kept rejecting it and rejecting it and blowing smoke and ignoring the truly gracious attempts by the South Koreans to reunify and open dialog and just be one with their northern cousins (and brothers and sisters).

I still think South Korea, just by its nature as a kind, gentle culture, wants the Sunshine Policy to stand, just, at a cultural and philosophical level, but North Korea wouldn't have it. It threatens the status quo too much there.

It's just a crying shame that the same people who were against the Sunshine Policy are also kind of against South Korean progressivism. There's a sort of ideological conflict there and it seems, at least to me, that progressives needn't necessarily be pushovers to an authoritarian regime while still being for the people. You can be for the Sunshine Policy for example, and still be for the people, and if the Sunshine Policy isn't working, OK, keep at it but subdue it in some senses.

I dunno. Just a shame. It seems like the authoritarian elements in North Korea are winning, because South Koreans want to unify.

[jp11]

52. We didn't cut off their food, their government and dear leader chose to spend their money

on this type of thing, military/nuclear, etc instead of feeding their people.

We wanted them to just stop with the missiles/nuclear crap and we'd feed their people, they said okay, then launched their missile fail.

It is just us choosing not to pay to feed their people while they work on their weapons after breaking our deal.

Is it 'right', no, but I really don't think we should pay to heat and power the factories where people make bombs they intend to sell to our enemies. Further if their people are hungry maybe they are that much more likely to depose their leader/government or put pressure on their government to change some policies and you know feed them instead of working on missiles.

Again it isn't 'right' but how 'right' is it for us to feed their people while their country works on building missiles/bombs to prove their strength and/or use them on their neighbors or sell them to anyone willing to buy them?

The circumstances of the people of North Korea aren't our doing it is that of their governments.

[Tarheel_Dem]

53. Wow! Biggest Fail Ever!

[SidDithers]

55. It's not just a fail...

Sid

[Tarheel_Dem]

62. !!

[dionysus]

126. is that a triple kickboxin' power fist? them's.. .fightin woids!

put em up!

[Tarheel_Dem]

127. Hey dion. Are you as speechless about this o.p. as I am?

Perhaps you've kicked me in the head once too often.

[dionysus]

133. i'll let you know ow speechless i am once i stop laughing...

[Tarheel_Dem]

137. I don't think you're the only who's laughing. Normally, the op would have thousands....

of recs by now. I think this one has made even the most devoted fans scratch their collective heads. The very thought that anyone would directly, or even indirectly endorse NK spending a shitload of money on missiles, while their own people starve, then turn around and blame the US for said starvation, has completely lost the plot.

You just can't make this crap up.

[SunsetDreams]

68. OMG!!!

Who knew they use skateboards for vasectomies?

[Odin2005]

89. LMFAO!!!!

[SidDithers]

56. Keep trying...

Really. Keep trying.

Sid

[paulk]

69. fail

[Ikonoklast]

74. You cannot be serious.

We subsidize them with food, and they build and test a ballistic missile delivery system for nuclear weapons.

The "working people of North Korea" are being starved by a despotic dynastic family and their sycophants, no one else.

[Whisp]

75. I think you are getting a real good schooling here, BBI

pay attention and learn something.

[SidDithers]

77. They're ignoring almost everyone doing the educating...nt

Sid

[Better Believe It]

103. I wasn't adequately schooled about George W. Bush's "axis of evil" bull shit.

I'm glad I wasn't!

So tell me exactly how denying the Korean people food assistance will win over the "hearts and minds" of the people.

That hasn't been explained yet by anyone in this discussion. Perhaps you can.

We tried napalm in Vietnam and that didn't work out very well so I'm not so sure this new and more compassionate policy will be very effective.

The "cold war" Democrats and Republicans taught me so much during the Vietnam war and I forgot most of it!

I'm sure thankful for that. It's harder to fool me a second time around!

Now I'm prepared to hear pretty much the same sort of crapola about Korea. But, it won't take nearly as long for me to seperate misleading political propaganda from the tiny bit and rare factual reporting we'll see in the corporate mass media.

However, if you can provide me with something other than crude propaganda "talking points" we're bombarded with everyday in the mass media I'd like to read them!

I'm listening!

[SATIRical]

111. Because the NK gov't would simply claim

that they, not the evil US is giving them the food, solidifying the "hearts and minds" against us and democracy.

You don't think the NK people would actually know the food came from us, do you?

[joshcryer]

124. The food aid will return, actually. Much sooner than when we did this in 2006 (nuke test).

Probably the Obama administration will request dialog for its return which is more than Bush ever did.

It doesn't really matter whether or not the people know where it's coming from.

[joshcryer]

123. The reason it is done is to send a signal to the people.

They are inundated with music and video about how their launch was successful and how great their leaders are. Their plates are then a lot more empty. The greatness isn't felt in the stomach.

I don't particularly like this method, of course, but that's why it's done.

Of course, if the North Korean government cared about its people it'd stop spending so much on its military industrial complex and feed them, but that's a distant hope.

[treestar]

80. "their food"

"weather satellite?" You've gone over the top with this one.

[Texasgal]

82. Are you serious???

Economic sanctions are WAY, WAY better than war.

North Koreans are suffering at the hands of their own government, not ours!

Wow. *shakes head*

[Daniel537]

87. Take up your concerns with the fine generals of the DPRK.

They apparently see no problem in spending billions on nuclear weapons while their people starve and have to deal with living in a modern day concentration camp.

[Odin2005]

88. I doubt the aid reaches the average North Korean, anyway.

It's all consumed by the elites, I bet. The aid is a waste of food that could go to places where the people that need it will actually get it.

[Kaleva]

101. It's alleged that much of it goes to the leadership and military

[joshcryer]

119. That is a foregone conclusion, the west does it just to say "well we helped."

[bluestate10]

93. The leaders of North Korea could invest money in food.

Instead of weapons. But, I suspect the comeback will be North Korea does not do that because the evil US of Obama will crush NC if NC doesn't arm to the teeth and beyond, even amid the lunacy of doing so at the expense of a starving populace. Facts can be bastards. The facts are that South Korea and the US have bent over backward to come up with any saleable reason to provide food to NC. And things would be kumbaya if NC leaders displayed an ounce of sanity.

[SidDithers]

102. North Carolina? I really don't think they're that bad...

Sid

[joshcryer]

118. Food security is the easiest thing for a country to do.

Bar none the easiest thing.

And before anyone says "they don't have a lot of arable land" let me tell you that you don't need one inch of arable land to do it.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

105. Does this mean there is another "peace" prize in the offing?

[SammyWinstonJack]

106. heh

[DevonRex]

109. Your next thread calls it a rocket. Which is it, BBI?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002561485

[Better Believe It]

115. It sure looks like a rocket to me. Using your rocket expertise what do you think it really is?

[Robb]

144. You're a rocket scientist?

I always had you pegged as a brain surgeon.

[SidDithers]

145. For those who haven't seen it, Mitchell and Webb brilliance on that topic...

Last edited Sun Apr 15, 2012, 10:58 AM - Edit history (1)

Sid

[dionysus]

132. whatever it is.. it somehow makes Obama evilllllllllllll

he'd defend hitler or stalin if it makes Dems look bad!

[DevonRex]

147. My head is spinning.

First it's a weather satellite and we should be ashamed, ashamed I tells ya! for stopping their food! But in the very next damned one he calls it a ROCKET!!!

But even though it's a ROCKET (lol) we shouldn't be spending any money to defend against NK since they can't launch without blowing their own stuff up. Hmm. Seems to me that we've blown up some of our own stuff up on launch a few times, haven't we?

In any case, we're sending BBI up to investigate next time they launch [url=http://www.cosgan.de/smilie.php][img][/img][/url]

[joshcryer]

117. When we reinstate it quietly in a month or two at most...

...I'll look forward to the OP talking about how "great we are" for helping the people of a failing and corrupt authoritarian system since the system doesn't give a shit about its people.

They did a nuke test in 2006, aid was dropped, 4 months later it was reinstated.

[dionysus]

125. poutrage fail. try harder...

[rudycantfail]

128. Here's another example

of the people who are in control of the Democratic Party being scared of the RW echo chamber calling them weak for not doing "something" about the grave threat NK poses to America. Some people, who knows how many, will be hurt by this and it's a purely political gesture by unscrupulous jellyfish.

[NashvilleLefty]

134. It wasn't getting to the people who needed it, anyway.

It was being intercepted and being used as NK government propaganda, anyway. It was being used to prop up the regime.

Often, the best intentions have unintended consequences.

NK has a history and a pattern - anytime they want more attention or more aid, they do something like this. The only way to change their behaviour is to break the pattern.

You may frame this as punishing the people for the actions of the regime, but the bottom line is that we weren't helping the people despite our best efforts. We were inadvertantly helping the regime.

IMHO, we should have done this long ago.

[SwampG8r]

135. why should we feed them?

are they not ideologically linked to china?
we are heading into shallower waters and our largess may not include those not so friendly to us
let the north koreans to the isolation they crave

[WonderGrunion]

139. Clearly North Korea was using the food aid for a bake sale to raise money for Bradley Manning's

legal defense fund. Damn that Obama and the lengths he will go to keep American heroes in prison.

[Better Believe It]

146. Do you think Manning is guilty of espionage and should do years of hard labor in prison?

Perhaps you can tell me what foreign or domestic "enemy" Manning was spying for.

The American people I suppose.

[agentS]

140. They had their chance.

The US strongly warned the Norks about this, but did they listen? Nope.
Even the Russians and the Chinese (their #1 backers) pleaded with them to not launch. But did they listen? Nope.

These are the consequences. If the people of North Korea don't want to starve, then it's time they rose up en masse in some form or fashion.
AFAIK, there have been minor uprisings, so there is a chance for a major one at some point.

[joshcryer]

142. There is zero chance for an uprising, like Libya North Korea believes in Collective Punishment.

One person acts out, everyone gets punished. It's an extremely effective tool. If one person acts out their whole family is punished, if a few people act out their entire families are punished, if a large enough number of people in a district acts out their entire district gets punished. Even suicide is punished. Kill yourself, your family suffers. That's a really fucked up prospect to be sure.

What it does do is send a signal to the North Korean people that what "good thing" happened is not in fact good.

Because they are going to be quite hungry as the state propaganda machine announces how effectively they launched their rockets, etc.

[zorahopkins]

148. The US Should Punish North Korea's Leaders, NOT Its People

If the US really thinks it is important to punish someone, then it should punish the leaders of North Korea.

All the US is really doing when it cuts off FOOD AID is to punish the starving people of North Korea.

This is truly a terrible policy.

We are better than this.

Truly we are.

[Tarheel_Dem]

149. Did you bother to read through this thread before commenting?

Can you assure us that the NK people get the food aid? You do know that NK is a closed society, right? How would we verify that "the people" are actually getting the food? How do you suggest we punish "the leaders"? Lots of emotional rhetoric in your post, but no concrete solutions. I'm really curious what you know about the situation, and how you propose to resolve it? Since it seems that China is closer to NK than the US, why do we have to feed them in the first place? In case you haven't heard, China's doing okay economically.