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Sat Sep 20, 2014, 08:36 PM

Somebody sure wants me to hate ISIS

5 weeks ago I'd rarely/barely heard of ISIS. Now it's the most hated outfit on the planet. It certainly didn't take long to be taught to hate them.

And that makes me ponder a few things.

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Reply Somebody sure wants me to hate ISIS (Original post)
Saboburns Sep 2014 OP
shenmue Sep 2014 #1
Electric Monk Sep 2014 #111
woolldog Sep 2014 #2
Maedhros Sep 2014 #5
woolldog Sep 2014 #7
99Forever Sep 2014 #9
baldguy Sep 2014 #22
MrMickeysMom Sep 2014 #138
baldguy Sep 2014 #153
MrMickeysMom Sep 2014 #156
newfie11 Sep 2014 #27
Maedhros Sep 2014 #97
Maedhros Sep 2014 #95
whathehell Sep 2014 #102
annm4peace Sep 2014 #10
Maedhros Sep 2014 #96
FrodosPet Sep 2014 #119
Maedhros Sep 2014 #123
YvonneCa Sep 2014 #135
Maedhros Sep 2014 #141
YvonneCa Sep 2014 #142
Maedhros Sep 2014 #143
YvonneCa Sep 2014 #144
Maedhros Sep 2014 #147
YvonneCa Sep 2014 #148
Maedhros Sep 2014 #150
YvonneCa Sep 2014 #151
Maedhros Sep 2014 #154
YvonneCa Sep 2014 #145
YvonneCa Sep 2014 #146
polichick Sep 2014 #35
whathehell Sep 2014 #103
NYC Liberal Sep 2014 #116
Igel Sep 2014 #50
SomethingFishy Sep 2014 #149
NYC_SKP Sep 2014 #3
Igel Sep 2014 #52
Rex Sep 2014 #4
Saboburns Sep 2014 #6
Dreamer Tatum Sep 2014 #93
Aerows Sep 2014 #8
oberliner Sep 2014 #11
99Forever Sep 2014 #12
oberliner Sep 2014 #13
99Forever Sep 2014 #15
GeorgeGist Sep 2014 #16
Cha Sep 2014 #18
oberliner Sep 2014 #41
99Forever Sep 2014 #51
muriel_volestrangler Sep 2014 #55
99Forever Sep 2014 #73
muriel_volestrangler Sep 2014 #75
99Forever Sep 2014 #78
muriel_volestrangler Sep 2014 #80
99Forever Sep 2014 #87
tabasco Sep 2014 #81
99Forever Sep 2014 #85
Number23 Sep 2014 #157
Cha Sep 2014 #162
Scuba Sep 2014 #38
CJCRANE Sep 2014 #21
oberliner Sep 2014 #42
CJCRANE Sep 2014 #44
whathehell Sep 2014 #106
LostInAnomie Sep 2014 #14
cali Sep 2014 #19
Erich Bloodaxe BSN Sep 2014 #31
Cha Sep 2014 #17
cali Sep 2014 #20
FrodosPet Sep 2014 #48
Art_from_Ark Sep 2014 #126
muriel_volestrangler Sep 2014 #23
CJCRANE Sep 2014 #24
muriel_volestrangler Sep 2014 #25
CJCRANE Sep 2014 #26
muriel_volestrangler Sep 2014 #30
CJCRANE Sep 2014 #32
Igel Sep 2014 #53
JustAnotherGen Sep 2014 #28
Shankapotomus Sep 2014 #29
polichick Sep 2014 #33
Tarheel_Dem Sep 2014 #34
CJCRANE Sep 2014 #36
freshwest Sep 2014 #67
CJCRANE Sep 2014 #37
geek tragedy Sep 2014 #47
Scuba Sep 2014 #39
geek tragedy Sep 2014 #46
Scuba Sep 2014 #54
muriel_volestrangler Sep 2014 #56
Scuba Sep 2014 #57
kwassa Sep 2014 #64
Scuba Sep 2014 #65
muriel_volestrangler Sep 2014 #68
Scuba Sep 2014 #70
muriel_volestrangler Sep 2014 #71
Scuba Sep 2014 #72
kwassa Sep 2014 #74
muriel_volestrangler Sep 2014 #79
treestar Sep 2014 #84
AgingAmerican Sep 2014 #129
muriel_volestrangler Sep 2014 #132
AgingAmerican Sep 2014 #133
muriel_volestrangler Sep 2014 #134
AgingAmerican Sep 2014 #136
muriel_volestrangler Sep 2014 #139
AgingAmerican Sep 2014 #140
kwassa Sep 2014 #69
geek tragedy Sep 2014 #82
AgingAmerican Sep 2014 #130
sufrommich Sep 2014 #40
MADem Sep 2014 #61
AgingAmerican Sep 2014 #131
randome Sep 2014 #43
geek tragedy Sep 2014 #45
stevenleser Sep 2014 #49
TBF Sep 2014 #58
sufrommich Sep 2014 #59
TBF Sep 2014 #60
kwassa Sep 2014 #62
sufrommich Sep 2014 #63
TBF Sep 2014 #91
geek tragedy Sep 2014 #121
TBF Sep 2014 #90
kwassa Sep 2014 #100
TBF Sep 2014 #104
kwassa Sep 2014 #109
TBF Sep 2014 #112
kwassa Sep 2014 #113
TBF Sep 2014 #114
kwassa Sep 2014 #115
Maedhros Sep 2014 #152
YvonneCa Sep 2014 #160
Scuba Sep 2014 #66
geek tragedy Sep 2014 #88
geek tragedy Sep 2014 #86
karynnj Sep 2014 #76
merrily Sep 2014 #77
William769 Sep 2014 #83
etherealtruth Sep 2014 #89
Dreamer Tatum Sep 2014 #92
Dems to Win Sep 2014 #94
Logical Sep 2014 #98
Donald Ian Rankin Sep 2014 #99
Maedhros Sep 2014 #155
Donald Ian Rankin Sep 2014 #161
Maedhros Sep 2014 #163
Scootaloo Sep 2014 #101
La Lioness Priyanka Sep 2014 #105
whathehell Sep 2014 #107
1000words Sep 2014 #108
pa28 Sep 2014 #110
FrodosPet Sep 2014 #117
Nye Bevan Sep 2014 #127
Dreamer Tatum Sep 2014 #159
JEB Sep 2014 #118
Initech Sep 2014 #120
1000words Sep 2014 #122
Brigid Sep 2014 #124
Chathamization Sep 2014 #125
LanternWaste Sep 2014 #128
Xyzse Sep 2014 #137
bigwillq Sep 2014 #158

Response to Saboburns (Original post)

Sat Sep 20, 2014, 08:39 PM

1. Why should you hate such a good TV show?

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Response to shenmue (Reply #1)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 04:08 PM

111. And we read, and we watched, all the specially selected news...

 

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Response to Saboburns (Original post)

Sat Sep 20, 2014, 08:39 PM

2. They've beheaded Americans on video.

Why wouldn't you hate them?

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Response to woolldog (Reply #2)

Sat Sep 20, 2014, 09:54 PM

5. We've obliterated hundreds of Iraqi, Pakistani, Afghan and Yemeni children with our drone strikes.

 

Why wouldn't they hate us?

And piling more carnage on top of what we've already wrought solves the problem how?

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Response to Maedhros (Reply #5)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 12:06 AM

7. So your solution is to

allow them to behead our citizens.

Thankfully Obama has more sense than that.

They hate everyone who isn't like them, which is why they're not just going around beheading only westerners but ethnic and religious minorities in the region who won't convert. They are evil.

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Response to woolldog (Reply #7)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 12:17 AM

9. Ahhh crap...

... where have I heard this fucking bullshit before?

Oh yeah...

I remember now...

... it's precisely the same line of lies used by George W Bush, Dick Cheney and company to drag us into Iraq in the last gigantic fuckup.

You want to fight those people? Have at it, jump on a plane and go do it. ON YOUR OWN FUCKING DIME.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #9)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 05:15 AM

22. You're implying Omaba is lying about ISIS. Prove it.

 

I swear, Obama haters of all stripes are starting to sound the same. The bullshit here is the automatic assumption that the situation is exactly the same as it was in 2003, with the administration making up excuses along the way & having it's lies exposed repeatedly. That is not what is happening here.

The current situation in Iraq & Syria is a direct result of the actions of the Bush Regime. ISIS would not have existed without the invasion of Iraq in 2003, and the removal of a stable govt in that country. Ten yrs have gone by, and it's a different world because of it.

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Response to baldguy (Reply #22)

Mon Sep 22, 2014, 12:10 PM

138. What reason do you have to think this criticism of O administration is hate for him?

… When it's simply hate for the same old crap that has lured the United States into war after war after war after war?

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Response to MrMickeysMom (Reply #138)

Mon Sep 22, 2014, 06:10 PM

153. Because the argument that Obama is "exactly the same as Bush" has no basis in reality

 

And requires as a prerequisite that the situation in 2014 is exactly the same as it was in 2002. It's not - MAINLY BECAUSE THE BUSH REGIME WAS A FUCKING DISASTER!!

The hatred of Obama from the uninformed Left is just as bad as the hatred for Obama from the uninformed Right.

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Response to baldguy (Reply #153)

Mon Sep 22, 2014, 10:32 PM

156. So, being "uninformed" about Obama = hatred?

Because I have to tell you, other than what you have just written, I've never seen the written argument, "Obama is exactly the same as Bush" written here.

Maybe you see something I don't. What I see is a lot of time running out after disastrous Bush policies to head the United States in the right direction in foreign policy. The domestic ones don't seem to take into account any justice for the criminal acts of corporations.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #9)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 06:03 AM

27. +1. Nt

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #9)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 01:29 PM

97. When the war is being proposed by a hated political foe

 

these people will scream about it from the highest rooftop.

When the war is being proposed by a beloved leader, these people will defend it with the same zeal.

To them war is not a terrible atrocity to be avoided, but a political football.

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Response to woolldog (Reply #7)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 01:24 PM

95. Bombing ISIL will not prevent beheadings, nor bring back those who are dead.

 

Bombing ISIL will only make them stronger. Vengeance is not sensible, and Obama is not demonstrating any kind of prudence on this issue. He's being led by the nose.

It's not about disallowing atrocity - after all, Obama allowed Israeli commandos to kill American citizen Furkan Dogan aboard the Mavi Marmara in 2010. Nary a peep out of the White House for that.

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Response to woolldog (Reply #7)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 03:03 PM

102. Thank you.

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Response to Maedhros (Reply #5)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 12:18 AM

10. Thank you

and agree.

I agree that actions that the US takes can add fuel to the fire of other hating the US.

both are bad.

There should be ways to cut off the oil transactions, and funds.



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Response to annm4peace (Reply #10)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 01:27 PM

96. Yes - ISIL's main source of funding is oil trades on the underground market,

 

primarily accomplished via markets in Turkey.

A sensible plan would be to choke down on their funding, which we should be able to do since Turkey is a NATO ally.

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Response to Maedhros (Reply #96)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 05:31 PM

119. And any nation that balks at that for whatever reason

We need to send them strongly worded letters expressing our disapproval. If they still refuse to cooperate, their name will be removed from the Secret Santa box.

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Response to FrodosPet (Reply #119)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 09:24 PM

123. But none of this will be tried.

 

Look - it's clear that the Obama Administration has been chomping at the bit to get back into the game and take it to Syria. They almost had their war last year until Kerry fucked up and presented a diplomatic out that Russia provided. The Administration took that in stride, however, and waited for the perfect opportunity which they now have.

Nothing is going to keep the Administration from going to war again. Nothing.

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Response to Maedhros (Reply #123)

Mon Sep 22, 2014, 12:02 PM

135. Please read and...

...educate yourself.

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Response to YvonneCa (Reply #135)

Mon Sep 22, 2014, 12:56 PM

141. I have, hence my post.

 

Are you somehow of the opinion that the Administration does not want to go to war in the Mideast? The sheer volume of military actions undertaken by this President suggests otherwise.

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Response to Maedhros (Reply #141)

Mon Sep 22, 2014, 01:37 PM

142. I think during GWB Administration...

...we here at DU often complained about issues being portrayed in stark 'black vs white' terms instead of seeing the nuanced 'shades of grey.'

That nuance is lacking in our FP discussions, both on DU and elsewhere, IMHO. I would like to see it return. That requires reading (source docs not sound bites) and educating ourselves...all of us...on the facts. In this discussion, that would be the facts about what President Obama and Secretary Kerry are actually trying to do. I don't think that is happening enough.
And I do apologize if I sounded disrespectful. It's just very frustrating...

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Response to YvonneCa (Reply #142)

Mon Sep 22, 2014, 02:18 PM

143. Consensus among the pro-war faction here seems to be that Obama is attacking ISIL

 

because the publicized beheadings have left him no choice but to do so. If that is indeed true, then Obama is committing both a grievous error and a war crime. ISIL has taken refuge in large population centers such as Mosul, such that air and missile strikes against ISIL will be absolutely certain to cause further civilian casualties. Taking this action to save political face with a reactionary electorate is repulsive.

However I don't think that's the case. I think military action against Syria has been a long-term goal and ISIL's barbarism has provided a useful justification. They initially tried to use the August 2013 sarin attacks as justification for striking Syria, but evidence that the sarin attacks were a false-flag operation by Turkey created a rift within the White House and led to the strikes being called off in favor of a diplomatic solution brokered by Russia (http://www.lrb.co.uk/v36/n08/seymour-m-hersh/the-red-line-and-the-rat-line).

Now with ISIL making gains in Iraq, with an associated media propaganda blitz designed to hype the threat, Syria once again has crept into America's gun sights.

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Response to Maedhros (Reply #143)

Mon Sep 22, 2014, 03:57 PM

144. Neither is the ...

...policy. The focus on the military component only is the problem many have in understanding the complete policy. This is not Shock and Awe II. That was a military response to what happened on 9/11.
Obama and Kerry are seeking to unite the region...and the world...around a solution to a bad situation, of which ISIS is only a part. The military response...whether one supports it or not...is also only a small part of the total planned response.

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Response to YvonneCa (Reply #144)

Mon Sep 22, 2014, 04:04 PM

147. Do you have a link that discusses the greater, non-military scope of the plan? [n/t]

 

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Response to Maedhros (Reply #147)

Mon Sep 22, 2014, 04:19 PM

148. I will give you several...

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Response to YvonneCa (Reply #148)

Mon Sep 22, 2014, 05:50 PM

150. I'm struggling to find the relevance in these links.

 

http://m.state.gov/md231245.htm : this contains "Remarks at Ceremony in Honor of Special Representative to Muslim Communities Shaarik Zafar" by John Kerry, and no details of the ISIL reaction plan are included. It's mostly Kerry's rhetoric on religious relations.

http://m.state.gov/md231773.htm : Kerry uses very broad brushes in this speech. Military action is repeatedly mentioned, but not much else is detailed:

At its core, our strategy is centered on a global coalition that will collaborate closely across a number of specific areas, including direct and indirect military support. Military assistance can come in a range of forms, from training and equipping to logistics and airlift, and countries from inside and outside of our region are already right now providing that support in these venues.
...
Number one, U.S. ground troops will not be sent into combat in this conflict.
...
Number two, this is more than just a military coalition, and I want to emphasize that. In some ways, some of the most important aspects of what we will be doing are not military. This mission isn’t just about taking out an enemy on the battlefield; it’s about taking out a network, decimating and discrediting a militant cult masquerading as a religious movement. It’s similar to what we’ve been doing to al-Qaida these last years. {N.B. Because that worked so well...}
...
In addition to the military campaign, it will be equally important for the global coalition to dry up ISIL’s illicit funding. {N.B. No details follow}


http://m.state.gov/mc60685.htm : This is simply a list of hundreds of links to Kerry's remarks in 2014.

I see many, many references to military action in Kerry's remarks, and only a passing reference to ISIL's funding with no details.


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Response to Maedhros (Reply #150)

Mon Sep 22, 2014, 05:53 PM

151. Seek to...

...understand.

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Response to YvonneCa (Reply #151)

Mon Sep 22, 2014, 06:23 PM

154. So, in essence, you provide three irrelevant links as support for your thin argument?

 

Maybe it's you who need to educate yourself. Good luck with that.

/ignore list for you.

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Response to Maedhros (Reply #96)

Mon Sep 22, 2014, 04:00 PM

145. And that is part of the...

...plan.

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Response to Maedhros (Reply #96)

Mon Sep 22, 2014, 04:03 PM

146. Part of the plan...

...

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Response to Maedhros (Reply #5)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 07:03 AM

35. Really. We're reaping what our mic, empowered by our leaders, has sown.

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Response to polichick (Reply #35)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 03:07 PM

103. Yeah, I guess all the Iraqi Shias and Christians have too..

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Response to polichick (Reply #35)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 05:07 PM

116. What have the innocent Iraqis being murdered by them "sown"?

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Response to Maedhros (Reply #5)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 09:49 AM

50. That misses the point.

It was quite clear what ISIS' rationale was. It's very communalistic and collectivist. "Tribal" is a good word for it, except that some view "tribe" as some sort of condescending term that can only be applied to indigenous peoples when viewing them as backwards or ignorant. It doesn't have to have that meaning, often doesn't have that meaning, and people shouldn't be forced by others to give it that meaning.

I call ISIS' worldview tribal because it is. It's ummah versus everybody, with genocide as the goal (preceded by "pacification" or Islamization by imposing the proper order on the world--Islam on top, then others that have some revelation, and the destruction or conversion of everybody else).

So the beheading makes perfect sense. We killed them. They killed us. The minor fact that those who did the killing of ISites weren't those killed by the ISites doesn't matter. It's tribe versus tribe, our tribe killed members of their tribe and so their tribe killed members of ours.

This is precisely the kind of view your post assumes. That an attack on a Muslim anywhere by the US is an attack on Muslims everywhere. Religion = identity = ethnicity. So it's not a completely foreign idea. Used to be very common in the West, before the rise of nation-states and then the 19th century rise of nationalism as a way of raising ethnicity to new heights. They just take it to its natural conclusion, which was very Ottoman (and prior to them, Horde).

However, many--most?--Americans don't quite view religion as ethnicity. They miss that whole "we killed them and so they killed us" kind of insight that Americans only adopt when racist or at war (at which point racism is fairly standard). IS killed innocents because they hold, unlike how much of collectivist and communalist thinking sees things, that guilt is individual.

It's a good thing that this kind of thinking is both uncommon in the West and only applied partially and in a biased manner. Otherwise we'd be in the awkward situation of punishing people at the local masjid for what IS did. IS, of course, would consider this a logical outplay and quite reasonable. And arguing in those terms may be reprehensible to Westerners, even those who sort of get it but only in a biased way, but culturally appropriate.

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Response to woolldog (Reply #2)

Mon Sep 22, 2014, 04:24 PM

149. So it's ok to behead Saudi Women as our "friends" the Saudi's like to do

when they shame their families by being raped. We also seem to like the Saudi's even though 11 of them killed 3000 Americans on 9/11.

I'm getting tired of the hypocrisy.

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Response to Saboburns (Original post)

Sat Sep 20, 2014, 08:49 PM

3. Yes. ISIS wants you to hate ISIS. They want the entire West to hate them.

 

...

You are right to ponder a few things.

I'm tempted to issue warnings to reporters and not give them the attention they clearly want.

Not that they'd just go away, but giving them attention isn't productive.

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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #3)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 09:52 AM

52. Fear, not hate.

They want to terrorize us by those beheadings into leaving them alone, if they can't get submission.

By their lights, what they did was righteous and appropriate. As soon as rights and such are all at the group level, this is a logical outcome. A necessary outcome, if you like consistency--and not necessarily a foolish consistency, since this has been a fairly common and socially useful outcome in broad areas of the globe for thousands of years. It fails when there's rapid social change and population borders are very porous, as well as when large collectives form, esp. messianic ones.

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Response to Saboburns (Original post)

Sat Sep 20, 2014, 08:51 PM

4. ISIS wants you to hate them so much, that you demand the government go back into Iraq

 

and go to war with them! I have no idea why they have such a death wish, but then again I could never understand violent extremism in the first place.

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Response to Rex (Reply #4)

Sat Sep 20, 2014, 10:05 PM

6. Well, I'm not altogether sure it's all ISIS

Making me hate ISIS.

I dunno, but it just strikes me as how very damn easy it is to get us to go to 'war'.

How very easy it is to train the people.

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Response to Saboburns (Reply #6)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 12:53 PM

93. Ooooh, look at the iconoclast.

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Response to Saboburns (Original post)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 12:14 AM

8. If you see a giant hill

 

of manure, some cows are nearby in the field, and it smells like bullshit, assuming that it is a mountain of gold isn't very wise.

It appears that you recognize a hill of shit when you see it and smell it.

I do, too.

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Response to Saboburns (Original post)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 12:23 AM

11. Putting out videos of themselves beheading Americans might play some role

That certainly earned some antipathy for that group from me and, I would imagine, others.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #11)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 12:36 AM

12. Does it only bother you when there's video?

Because when it comes to beheadings, these guys are pikers compared to our "ally."

http://www.inquisitr.com/1458897/as-far-as-beheadings-go-saudi-arabia-appears-to-be-competing-with-the-isis-why-is-u-s-turning-a-blind-eye/

In case you hadn't noticed, you are being manipulated. Just who do you think might want to do that?

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #12)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 12:42 AM

13. It bothers me when people post videos of themselves beheading Americans

Certainly no fan of the Saudi justice system either.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #13)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 12:55 AM

15. You are being played.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #15)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 04:48 AM

16. +1

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #15)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 05:00 AM

18. So is your Avatar Bernie.. "playing" you then..

Bernie stands with the President on this "Enormously complicated issue".. as he calls it. He disagrees with staying out of ISIS like some around are clamoring on about.



As he stated it's an "International effort" and guess what.. "they have to put money in it too."

Hartman and he talked about one republiCon saying.. they'll "blast him if it doesn't work and ask why he didn't do it sooner if it does." Sounds like a familiar whine.

Senators Warren and Sanders are on board with the President..

FrodosPet http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5527989

Sen. Elizabeth Warren says she supports President Obama's decision to authorize airstrikes in Iraq

BOSTON — Warning against a new U.S. war in Iraq, U.S. Sen. Elizabeth Warren on Friday stood by President Barack Obama’s decision to authorize targeted airstrikes to help defend Americans in Erbil, Iraq, and provide aid to a religious minority taking refuge in the Sinjar mountains.

It’s a complicated situation right now in Iraq and the president has taken very targeted actions to provide humanitarian relief that the Iraqi government requested, and to protect American citizens,” Warren told reporters. “But like the president I believe that any solution in Iraq is going to be a negotiated solution, not a military solution. We do not want to be pulled into another war in Iraq.”


Senator Elizabeth Warren, D-Mass., said she supports president Barack Obama's decision to authorize new airstrikes in Iraq but cautioned against U.S. involvement in a new war in the Middle East.

http://www.masslive.com/politics/index.ssf/2014/08/sen_elizabeth_warren_warns_abo.html

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #15)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 08:14 AM

41. I have the same opinion on this subject as the guy in your avatar

Like him, I do not approve of a group capturing and beheading Americans and putting out videos of same.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #41)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 09:52 AM

51. You would do well to also note...

... that the guy in my avatar voted NO to financing more war. So your cutesy "gotcha" seems pretty damn silly to me.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #51)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 10:30 AM

55. He voted against training and arming Syrians against ISIS; he favours airstrikes in Iraq

Sen. Bernie Sanders on Thursday voted against the United States training and arming Syrian rebels. Sanders said the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria “is a brutal and dangerous extremist organization which must be defeated, but this war cannot be won by the United States alone. There needs to be a real international coalition led by the countries most threatened – Muslim countries such as Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Turkey and Iran. The worst thing that we can do now is allow ISIS to portray this struggle as East vs. West, as Muslim vs. Christian, as the Middle East vs. America. That is exactly what they want and that is exactly what we should not be giving them.”

The senator faulted wealthy Middle East nations for doing too little to protect their own interests, especially when Saudi Arabia has the fourth largest military budget in the world. He also questioned why American taxpayers are footing the bill when royal families that rule those Mideast nations are worth hundreds of billions of dollars.

“This is not just a question of whether young men and women in Vermont and across America should be putting their lives on the line in another Mideast war. It is not just about whether the taxpayers of our country should once again pay for a war in the Middle East. It is about the reality that, long term, this struggle will never be won by the United States alone. It must be won with the active participation of the Muslim countries in the region,” Sanders said.

Sanders said he supports President Barack Obama’s judicious use of airstrikes which already have shown some success, but in opposing the resolution Sanders said, “I fear very much that supporting questionable groups in Syria who will be outnumbered and outgunned by both ISIS and the Assad regime could open the door to the United States once again being dragged back into the quagmire of long-term military engagement.”

http://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/recent-business/sanders-to-vote-no-on-war-funds

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #55)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 11:51 AM

73. Parse it any way you please.

When it counted America's Senator voted against your war.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #73)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 11:54 AM

75. Quoting the senator's own website is not just 'parsing' it

I think you need better understanding of what his position is. It's more your war, than mine - you're American, I'm not, and the senator you support favours the airstrikes.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #75)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 12:00 PM

78. As I said...

... when it really counted, Senator Sanders voted NO. Sorry if that blows the warmonger meme for you. Not my problem.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #78)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 12:06 PM

80. I think that you don't understand Sen. Sanders, and that is your problem

This thread isn't about funding rebels in Syria, but about ISIS - and if you think there is 'manipulation' going on with ISIS, Sanders has either bought the manipulation you think exists, or is taking part in it. That should be a problem for you.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #80)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 12:22 PM

87. Bernie Sanders is a politician.

I watch what politicians DO, not what they say.

A sad lesson that was driven home for me by one Barack Obama.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #78)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 12:10 PM

81. You're not making any sense

 

Try again.

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Response to tabasco (Reply #81)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 12:20 PM

85. Turn down the pounding of the war drums and try listening again.

If that doesn't do it, you're beyond my ability to help.

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Response to tabasco (Reply #81)

Mon Sep 22, 2014, 10:50 PM

157. I was just thinking that exact same thing

But I guess when the end goal is always "Obama bad" then consistency or even making sense doesn't matter all that much...

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #51)

Tue Sep 23, 2014, 03:51 AM

162. Nope, you're wrong and in deep denial.. Bernie voted to not fund arming Syrians on the GROUND..

You are actually the "cutesy gotcha" guy that means jack shite when it come to Bernie's standing with the President on AIRSTRIKES AGAINST ISIS. Have you ever even acknowledged that? Or do you just want to keep your head in the sand and repeat over and over about Bernie not funding Syrians on the Ground?

Jimmy Carter and Elizabeth Warren Support the President,
too..

Bernie stands with the President on this "Enormously complicated issue".. as he calls it. He disagrees with staying out of ISIS like some around are clamoring on about.



As he stated it's an "International effort" and guess what.. "they have to put money in it too."

Hartman and he talked about one republiCon saying.. they'll "blast him if it doesn't work and ask why he didn't do it sooner if it does." Sounds like a familiar whine.

Senators Warren and Sanders are on board with the President..

FrodosPet http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5527989

Sen. Elizabeth Warren says she supports President Obama's decision to authorize airstrikes in Iraq

BOSTON — Warning against a new U.S. war in Iraq, U.S. Sen. Elizabeth Warren on Friday stood by President Barack Obama’s decision to authorize targeted airstrikes to help defend Americans in Erbil, Iraq, and provide aid to a religious minority taking refuge in the Sinjar mountains.

It’s a complicated situation right now in Iraq and the president has taken very targeted actions to provide humanitarian relief that the Iraqi government requested, and to protect American citizens,” Warren told reporters. “But like the president I believe that any solution in Iraq is going to be a negotiated solution, not a military solution. We do not want to be pulled into another war in Iraq.”


Senator Elizabeth Warren, D-Mass., said she supports president Barack Obama's decision to authorize new airstrikes in Iraq but cautioned against U.S. involvement in a new war in the Middle East.

http://www.masslive.com/politics/index.ssf/2014/08/sen_elizabeth_warren_warns_abo.html

"I think we need to attack ISIS. I'm really concerned about them."

"Is the bombing of ISIS justified? I say yes. And I hope President Obama has every possible success in getting allies to join with us, some with ground troops effected inside Syria."



FrodosPet http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5566788



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Response to 99Forever (Reply #12)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 07:48 AM

38. +1,000

 

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Response to oberliner (Reply #11)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 05:10 AM

21. Putting American troops in harm's way after 9/11

just caused more deaths and more problems and set the dominoes in motion that led us to today's events.

IMO we should block their funding streams and ignore their propaganda.

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Response to CJCRANE (Reply #21)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 08:16 AM

42. Should we do anything to try to rescue the hostages?

Would you support such an endeavor?

Separate question: Do you think the US should have paid the ransom for those who were killed before they were beheaded or allowed the families to do so?

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Response to oberliner (Reply #42)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 08:20 AM

44. We apparently tried to rescue them

but that didn't work out.

We did a deal to get Bergdahl back so that apparently isn't out of the question.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #11)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 03:13 PM

106. You bet..

They're sick, sadistic monsters.

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Response to Saboburns (Original post)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 12:44 AM

14. You're right. They're probably swell guys.

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Response to LostInAnomie (Reply #14)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 05:00 AM

19. I don't think the OP expressed herself/himself well at all

 

but there has been, for instance, an enormous amount of verbiage from politicians and the media about the unique evil and threat of ISIS as compared to boko haram.

Does ISIS really pose an existential threat to the U.S.?

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Response to cali (Reply #19)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 06:42 AM

31. While, oddly enough, ISIS is supposedly engaging in a lot of the same

practices as Boko Haram, on a large scale, and there's very little coverage of that. Rounding young women up in towns they overtake, selling them off as 'wives'/sex slaves to their jihadi, even underage. They're a pretty vile group, but as you point out there are a number of pretty vile groups around the world about whom the US does squat.

Do they pose an existential threat to the US? No, but they might pose a serious one, if we have idiots in Congress and the WH who fearmonger us into another depression/recession as they did after 9/11/2001. They can't do it alone, but with enough lunatics in DC helping them along, they could finish the job of destroying the American middle class.

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Response to Saboburns (Original post)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 04:59 AM

17. Yes, Senators Sanders and Warren want you "to hate ISIS" Ponder that..

Bernie stands with the President on this "Enormously complicated issue".. as he calls it. He disagrees with staying out of ISIS like some around are clamoring on about.



As he stated it's an "International effort" and guess what.. "they have to put money in it too."

Hartman and he talked about one republiCon saying.. they'll "blast him if it doesn't work and ask why he didn't do it sooner if it does." Sounds like a familiar whine.

Senators Warren and Sanders are on board with the President..

FrodosPet http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5527989

Sen. Elizabeth Warren says she supports President Obama's decision to authorize airstrikes in Iraq

BOSTON — Warning against a new U.S. war in Iraq, U.S. Sen. Elizabeth Warren on Friday stood by President Barack Obama’s decision to authorize targeted airstrikes to help defend Americans in Erbil, Iraq, and provide aid to a religious minority taking refuge in the Sinjar mountains.

It’s a complicated situation right now in Iraq and the president has taken very targeted actions to provide humanitarian relief that the Iraqi government requested, and to protect American citizens,” Warren told reporters. “But like the president I believe that any solution in Iraq is going to be a negotiated solution, not a military solution. We do not want to be pulled into another war in Iraq.”


Senator Elizabeth Warren, D-Mass., said she supports president Barack Obama's decision to authorize new airstrikes in Iraq but cautioned against U.S. involvement in a new war in the Middle East.

http://www.masslive.com/politics/index.ssf/2014/08/sen_elizabeth_warren_warns_abo.html

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Response to Cha (Reply #17)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 05:01 AM

20. Bernie and Warren voted against training and arming "moderate" Syrian rebels

 

so clearly they don't entirely stand with the President.

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Response to cali (Reply #20)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 09:36 AM

48. Two people smart enough to not want to arm our potential enemies

But they still support coalition military action, like airstrikes, against the evil assholes.

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Response to FrodosPet (Reply #48)

Mon Sep 22, 2014, 10:07 AM

126. And Senator Fulbright voted with 97 other Senators

for the Tonkin Gulf Resolution and to crank up the fight against evil assholes, who were called Godless Commies in those days.

Two years later, he came out as one of the biggest critics of the Vietnam War.

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Response to Saboburns (Original post)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 05:20 AM

23. Maybe you should have listened to the UN 3 months ago

UN 'extremely alarmed' at 'hundreds of deaths in Iraq'

13 June 2014 at 10:12am

The United Nations Human Rights Chief Navi Pillay said the UN was "extremely alarmed" by the impact of the Islamist takeover of several cities in Iraq on the civilian population.

Pillay said the UN was alarmed by reports that the number of people killed in summary executions and extrajudicial killings "may run into the hundreds".

The UN said an estimated 500,000 people have been forced to flee their homes to escape the violence.

http://www.itv.com/news/update/2014-06-13/un-extremely-alarmed-at-civilian-displacement-in-iraq/

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #23)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 05:29 AM

24. How often does the American MSM mention what's happening at the UN?

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Response to CJCRANE (Reply #24)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 05:34 AM

25. We were talking about ISIS in June on DU:

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #25)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 05:37 AM

26. I knew about the proto-ISIS about 18 months ago

because I stumbled across an extremist supporters' group on Facebook.

So I've watched it all unfold since then and noticed that the media and politicans said very little about it until the crisis on the Sinjar mountain.

I don't think we can fault other DUers for not following every story in every region.

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Response to CJCRANE (Reply #26)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 06:30 AM

30. But I think the tone of the OP implies this is manufactured outrage

"It certainly didn't take long to be taught to hate them.

And that makes me ponder a few things."

Perhaps the media, and we, weren't paying them enough attention earlier. But that doesn't mean we are being 'taught to hate'.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #30)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 06:48 AM

32. The MSM and polticians concentrate on an issue when it's convenient for them.

It wasn't convenient to focus on the bad rebels when they were rampaging through Syria because that interfered with the plan to arm the rebels and attack Assad's infrastructure.

But now the bad rebels have been elevated to superbad status, that provides an excuse to arm the not-so-bad rebels to fight them.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #25)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 10:05 AM

53. Earlier, if you go back and search on posts that involve Iraq and Ramadi.

Or other places in the West. I guess it was in winter or very early spring that they started their offensive and there were reports about the Iraqi army being deployed to stop or roll back territorial gains in the west of Iraq.

Every few weeks there'd be another report, either talking about deployment to the same place as before or to a location that showed ISIL was making gains. Not a big deal until it either it gained sufficient size or until we needed to be distracted.

And once all the progressive buttons could be pushed it became a big deal, esp. when conservative buttons could also be pushed at the same time. We could play up being anti-Assad, pro-minority, anti-imperialist, pro-"real"-Muslim so that "they" like us while blaming it all on Bush II and simultaneously merge it with jingoist "how dare they kill an American and humiliate all Americans!" fervor and even let it co-opt some of the Mexican border anxiety. Then that could really take off. It's a Madison Avenue PR man's dream come true.

Immediately other problems vanished from sight in a rally-round-the-president campaign: We don't do rally-round-the-flag anymore. So Libya, Syria, Ukraine + Russia, the fatuousness of the anti-Boko Haram craze, Israel + Palestine, etc., etc., all fell from the public eye. In those, the US and the West are utterly impotent and, to be honest, double-dealing and contemptible. It was the much-needed huge "real life" campaign that could lead to victory that we need in a political campaign season to show ourselves just how damned great we really are.

It's politics. This bit of international politics is intensely domestic, and domestic to a lot of countries in different ways.

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Response to Saboburns (Original post)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 06:07 AM

28. ISIS wants us to hate ISIS

But we don't have to.

Sometimes you have to fight - I'm not sure this time is one.

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Response to Saboburns (Original post)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 06:12 AM

29. They would be beheading people

even if we weren't there. It's their interpretation of justice. They see women going to school on the same level as American's invading the Middle East. You don't need lessons to object to that.

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Response to Saboburns (Original post)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 06:49 AM

33. Can't keep the war industry vital without a bad guy.

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Response to Saboburns (Original post)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 06:59 AM

34. 5 weeks ago? That says more about you than anything you could or couldn't be taught.

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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #34)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 07:09 AM

36. Well, Western leaders and politicians didn't say much about it until about five weeks ago.

And they chose to remain on vacation for the month of August, so it can't have been that urgent

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Response to CJCRANE (Reply #36)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 11:32 AM

67. The GOPTaliban are not my leaders. The SOS and POTUS have been paying attention to this for years.

SOS and POTUS didn't want to set off the masses into wanting a war by putting in on the front burner.

Corporate media and their owners profit from wars. Not the American people, nor those we elected to serve our national, want or need the debt of wars.

Obama has just sent 3K troops with specialized training to Liberia, an old ally formed by former American slaves, to stop the outbreak of Ebola. Before it gets here by natural vectors, and it will get here, because we are an immigrant nation.

It can be used as means of terrorism, just at the Mongols deliberately set off bubonic plague as they were leaving Europe in one of the invasions there. It wasn't the first time disease has been used as weapon, and it could be again.

It's very egocentric to think that it's all about how we in America are being presented news. The world has a mind of its own, it's not all about propaganda, something that can be turned on and off with the flick of a switch. Scientific facts do not cease to exist when we don't believe them.

There are surer ways to gain control of territory and resources than news media inflaming people. ISIS is the response to the displacement of twenty million people by the Iraq War looking for a new national identity.

ISIS is simply playing the old game and we're not going to war with them, we're letting allies do it. The heavy handed Bush regime with its global ambitions served up a lesson neither we nor the world is willing to forget.

There will be new and more startling lessons, faster than ever, and like it or not, we elected people to deal with it.

If we stick our nose in the air and don't vote, others will make our decisions for us. Just as ISIS is doing for those who are caught within the regions it controls.

ISIS will be taken care of by its neighbors. The threat of stochastic terror encouraged by them, just like any other rightwing cult is real. We're betting that nameless persons will prevent that from happening.

Those nameless persons are working on this all the time so we don't have to do so. It's in our interest to participate in government and see what path that will take.


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Response to Saboburns (Original post)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 07:24 AM

37. Yes, I was keeping track of events unfolding in Libya and Iraq/Syria

over the summer.

The Israel/Gaza conflict took up nearly all of the TV news' attention and they completely ignored developments in Libya and Iraq/Syria. (And, as with many things, I commented about it at the time right here on DU).

But then at some point after the Israel/Gaza conflict they flicked over to Iraq with the Sinjar mountain crisis.

It was literally like flicking a switch. One day - nothing. The next day - a floodlight.

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Response to CJCRANE (Reply #37)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 08:28 AM

47. The catastrophic route of the Iraqi army

certainly merited increased attention.

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Response to Saboburns (Original post)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 07:58 AM

39. It's easy to dupe the American public, especially when you own all the major media.

 



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Response to Scuba (Reply #39)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 08:26 AM

46. So ISIL, in your view, is the victim of

a corporate smear campaign?

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #46)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 10:20 AM

54. More likely the fabrication of those who would keep us in perpetual war.

 

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Response to Scuba (Reply #54)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 10:33 AM

56. 'fabrication' as in 'you don't believe they really exist'?

Or 'fabrication' as in 'there is a secret cabal, who are not fundamentalist Muslims, who created ISIS for profit'?

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #56)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 10:40 AM

57. "Created for profit" is certainly plausible.

 

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Response to Scuba (Reply #57)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 11:12 AM

64. This is clearly the handiwork of the Illuminati.

They also faked the moon landings.

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Response to kwassa (Reply #64)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 11:30 AM

65. Yes, dismissing any suspicions as wild conspiracy theories is the way to go.

 

It's right in the MIC handbook!

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Response to Scuba (Reply #65)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 11:33 AM

68. You think you have an explanation that isn't a conspiracy theory?

You just said that your suggestion is that a secret cabal created ISIS for profit. In what way is a claim of a secret cabal manipulating world governments and murdering hundreds of people for profit not a conspiracy theory?

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #68)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 11:37 AM

70. I reviewed my posts but can't find mention of a "secret cabal". Maybe you have a link.

 

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Response to Scuba (Reply #70)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 11:44 AM

71. You said "those who would keep us in perpetual war". I said 'secret cabal'

That was the option you went for, rather than the media lying about the very existence of ISI. Are you suggesting there is an open consortium that created ISIS? If so, then name it, and its members.

You are putting forward a conspiracy theory - that "those who would keep us in perpetual war" created ISIS for profit. if you can't see that, then you need to stand back and examine what you are suggesting.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #71)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 11:46 AM

72. Are suggesting that's not a plausible scenario? If so, why do you think it's not plausible?

 

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Response to Scuba (Reply #72)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 11:54 AM

74. The mere fact of limited ownership of media isn't proof of anything.

It doesn't even suggest anything. You assume that it does. You believe in a media conspiracy, and you advance that theory.

You level a serious charge for which there is not a shred of evidence. That leaves it in the realm of unsupported fantasy, rather than plausible scenario.

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Response to Scuba (Reply #72)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 12:02 PM

79. because the people in charge of ISIS, especially the man at the top, have a long record

of fanaticism and violence, and their actions are severely limiting the ability of international corporations to profit from the extraction of oil in the area. It is implausible that your corporations could manipulate a major group of religious fundamentalists for about a decade without either the fundamentalists noticing, or a single person in the corporations deciding that mass murder isn't an ethical way to conduct business.

There is actually an important message in 'Austin Powers'; it's that corporations make far more profit from international business as usual than from mayhem and destruction. I thought that once it had appeared in a famous satirical film, people would have taken it on board; it's seems not, unfortunately.

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Response to Scuba (Reply #72)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 12:19 PM

84. so it's a plausible scenario

but without evidence, there is nothing more to it than that. I have a feeling you would like to believe this plausible scenario.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #71)

Mon Sep 22, 2014, 11:44 AM

129. 'An open consortium that created ISIS'

 

The name of this consortium is 'The Neocons'. There is also the 'Military Industrial Complex'.

Everybody knows their names and they have some very powerful and outspoken members. People like John McCain, Lindsay Graham, Dick Cheney.....the usual suspects.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #129)

Mon Sep 22, 2014, 11:48 AM

132. No, that is not an 'open consortium'. They do not admit it.

If you think they got together and created ISIS for profit, then you are claiming they did it in secrecy. That is the definition of a conspiracy. And if you think it's open, then get them arrested for the murder of James Foley.

Why, if you think these people do such things, do you deny the everyday meaning of 'conspiracy'?

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #132)

Mon Sep 22, 2014, 11:53 AM

133. The intent of going into Iraq

 

...was oil and money laundering.

They knew there would be, 'Blowback' and openly admitted such. They also knew that 'blowback' would give them even more reason to perpetuate their psychopathic little adventure.


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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #133)

Mon Sep 22, 2014, 11:57 AM

134. You confuse "did things that contributed to the region's situation" with "created for profit"

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #134)

Mon Sep 22, 2014, 12:03 PM

136. Contributed? They caused it intentionally by invading Iraq

 

And they did so purely for profit. Their ultimate goal was and is an empire.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #136)

Mon Sep 22, 2014, 12:14 PM

139. If you think they fabricated ISIS, then you are suggesting a conspiracy

They did not openly create ISIS. You have named several of them. Therefore, it is a conspiracy. By definition. It is your theory; therefore it is your conspiracy theory.

Note that 'fabricate' doesn't mean 'contribute to', or 'encourage', or 'to be one of the causes', but 'manufacture'. It's the specific process of intentionally bringing something into existence.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #139)

Mon Sep 22, 2014, 12:42 PM

140. ISIS is the predictible end result

 

...of their intentional endeavor.

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Response to Scuba (Reply #65)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 11:34 AM

69. and where is the MIC handbook? Got an online source?

or do I have to buy it from Amazon?

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Response to Scuba (Reply #54)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 12:12 PM

82. You should inform all the people

ISIL has killed and those living under its rule about your brilliant insight.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #82)

Mon Sep 22, 2014, 11:45 AM

130. They are already aware of it

 

They already know the Neocons created this whole mess to begin with.

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Response to Saboburns (Original post)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 08:13 AM

40. Because what's not to love about misogiynist,homophobic,theocratic

thugs marching across a huge swath of the globe?

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Response to sufrommich (Reply #40)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 11:06 AM

61. They'd be so welcoming to their defenders here, I'm sure!

I mean, really--what's not to love? They'd love their religious practices, or lack of same, their style of dress (and that includes the style of dress of the women, or the female family members), their political views, their views on equality...sure, it's all Happy Families with those guys!

They're just "misunderstood"--like Putin!

Heck, I'll bet they'd give 'em a brand new suit of clothing to welcome them to their group....


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Response to sufrommich (Reply #40)

Mon Sep 22, 2014, 11:47 AM

131. Are you talking about ISIS

 

...or the Neocons? The similarities are ironic, aren't they? ...or perhaps not so ironic...

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Response to Saboburns (Original post)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 08:19 AM

43. Then you're easily let astray.

A group of murderous thugs is rampaging through the middle east. There should be no debate about stopping them, only about the means.

Where do uncaptured mouse clicks go?

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Response to Saboburns (Original post)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 08:24 AM

45. It means you weren't paying attention to the region, nt

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Response to Saboburns (Original post)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 09:37 AM

49. Yes, Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren among others. nt

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Response to Saboburns (Original post)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 10:45 AM

58. I see someone is paying attention -

I used to joke about Dick Cheney making the Osama bin Laden videos in his basement. Now we know he didn't need to resort to that - they are making them right in the Pentagon (or at Langley).

It's pitifully transparent at this point but still the masses go for it.

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Response to TBF (Reply #58)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 10:49 AM

59. Seriously? You think the ISIS videos are made at the Pentagon?

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Response to sufrommich (Reply #59)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 10:56 AM

60. I don't believe the story we're being fed -

anymore than I believed the "weapons of mass destruction" BS that was paraded around the last time the MIC wanted war.

Try reading Eisenhower's speech on the MIC:

http://coursesa.matrix.msu.edu/~hst306/documents/indust.html


A snippet:

A vital element in keeping the peace is our military establishment. Our arms must be mighty, ready for instant action, so that no potential aggressor may be tempted to risk his own destruction.

Our military organization today bears little relation to that known by any of my predecessors in peacetime, or indeed by the fighting men of World War II or Korea.

Until the latest of our world conflicts, the United States had no armaments industry. American makers of plowshares could, with time and as required, make swords as well. But now we can no longer risk emergency improvisation of national defense; we have been compelled to create a permanent armaments industry of vast proportions. Added to this, three and a half million men and women are directly engaged in the defense establishment. We annually spend on military security more than the net income of all United States corporations.

This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence -- economic, political, even spiritual -- is felt in every city, every State house, every office of the Federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society.



If this doesn't spell it out for you I don't know what more I can say.

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Response to TBF (Reply #60)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 11:09 AM

62. It doesn't spell it out for me, thank you.

Conspiracy theories are so fun.

Unfortunately, a speech by Eisenhower is proof of ..... what?

Now, I think that ISIS are really a vicious group of Martians that beamed into the Middle East, and are just pretending to be religious fanatics. I saw one of their saucers last night.

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Response to kwassa (Reply #62)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 11:11 AM

63. Alex Jones grade derp knows no political persuasion. nt

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Response to sufrommich (Reply #63)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 12:52 PM

91. Try again - Alex Jones is not a communist.

But thanks for playing.

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Response to TBF (Reply #91)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 06:14 PM

121. Holy non sequiturs Batman! nt

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Response to kwassa (Reply #62)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 12:51 PM

90. We don't need conspiracy - we have capitalism and the MIC. nt

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Response to TBF (Reply #90)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 02:52 PM

100. all you have is conspiracy.

Not a speck of evidence.

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Response to kwassa (Reply #100)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 03:10 PM

104. If you can't see what capitalism is doing to this

country you are either blind or benefiting from the pillaging. Which is it?

Never mind, rhetorical question.

BTW, this has very little to do with Barack Obama so you needn't get upset. I'm talking about systems - not attacking the beloved leader.

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Response to TBF (Reply #104)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 03:38 PM

109. If you believe that communism is a viable solution for anything ....

you've missed the past 100 years of actual history.

Like I said, you have no evidence to support your conspiracy theory.

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Response to kwassa (Reply #109)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 04:22 PM

112. We haven't tried communism -

hell, we haven't tried democracy. What we have is a very small number of oligarchs running the planet for profit. If you see that as conspiracy you need to figure out how to read an income inequality chart.

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Response to TBF (Reply #112)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 04:31 PM

113. Why should we try communism? It has failed absolutely everywhere, and ...

brought about more human death at the hands of dictators than any other belief system ever. It has also failed in it's economic mission.

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Response to kwassa (Reply #113)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 04:34 PM

114. I think we've seen some socialist systems led by dictators -

and that was never advocated by Marx. But you've got you're red baiting narrative and by god you're going to hammer away. Sorry, not playing.

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Response to TBF (Reply #114)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 04:44 PM

115. and I am not playing with your evidence-free conspiracy theory, either.

Come back when you have some facts.

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Response to TBF (Reply #114)

Mon Sep 22, 2014, 05:58 PM

152. Red baiting narrative = belongs on ignore list.

 

Problem solved.

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Response to Maedhros (Reply #152)

Mon Sep 22, 2014, 10:56 PM

160. Can't ignore every problem... n/t

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Response to TBF (Reply #60)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 11:31 AM

66. +1,000

 

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Response to TBF (Reply #60)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 12:24 PM

88. Citing a 60 year old speech doesn't make

Alex Jobes-level tinfoil woo credible. Sorry!

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Response to TBF (Reply #58)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 12:21 PM

86. Alex Jones would be impressed at your creativity. nt

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Response to Saboburns (Original post)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 11:54 AM

76. If you barely heard of them until 5 weeks ago you were not paying attention - and that likely is

not all your fault.

However, it does mean that in addition to not following what was happening in Iraq and Syria, you also missed Obama's speech in mid June speaking of the threat, committing advisers and speaking of potential air support.

The reason is the US news is mostly of celebrity, politics and whatever the "interesting" story of the week is. Even the main newspapers have greatly cut back on ALL their coverage - they can't afford all the foreign news bureaus they once had.

The reason coverage exploded 5 weeks ago is that ISIS beheaded two men. THAT is something that our media finds interesting to cover.

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Response to Saboburns (Original post)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 11:58 AM

77. Not somebody. Almost everybody wants you (and me) to hate IS enough to bomb,

probably killing, maiming and displacing more innocent Syrians than members of IS.

Our bodies may have evolved to a degree, but our emotions and ability to do anything but flail and cudgel when we feel threatened is still pre-Stone Age. I hope our "hearts and minds" catch up before global warming moots the issue.

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Response to Saboburns (Original post)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 12:13 PM

83. While you are pondering, ponder this.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025558798

Or should I just accept this and move on?

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Response to Saboburns (Original post)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 12:28 PM

89. The Yazidis do

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Response to Saboburns (Original post)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 12:52 PM

92. Let me be sure I understand this ridiculous bullshit

SOMEONE wants you to hate ISIS?

Have you turned your critical thinking skills over to someone else? ISIS is on video beheading innocent people
and there are confirmed reports of MASS MURDER. Of WOMEN AND CHILDREN.

And when confronted with this, you say what, exactly? That "oh well, we did it too!"

Which, #1, no we didn't. If we did that, the lasting images from Abu Ghraib would be pictures of beheaded children
and their mothers, not dudes with underwear on their heads.*

#2, is your moral compass THAT compromised, that you refuse to hate one group of murdering thugs because you
think they were somehow PROVOKED? Because despite ANYTHING you sputter to the contrary, THAT IS EXACTLY what
a reasonable person would infer from your post.

#3, ISIS/ISIL has been reported on for months in one way or another. Put down the remote or the 50 Shades or whatever
is distracting you from correctly disregarding a group of murderous thugs, and read.

#4, you are accusing the POTUS of lying to the nation. Can you back that up?

Do yourself and your moral composition a favor: in matters of right and wrong, don't apply your own relativism.





* - yes, Abu Ghraib was worse than that, much worse. I get it. Spare me.

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Response to Saboburns (Original post)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 01:09 PM

94. IS is taunting US into a war to take out Assad, just as their Saudi creators ordered. imo

 

Sickening to see US fall for it.

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Response to Saboburns (Original post)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 01:32 PM

98. Please state your love for them. I will promise to alert it and get it locked! nt

 

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Response to Saboburns (Original post)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 01:56 PM

99. Yes, I at least want you to hate ISIS.

The thing you should ponder is "if I automatically assume that anything that the "mainstream media" tells me is Bad and Wrong, aren't I refraining from exercising my judgement just as completely as if I automatically trust is?"

ISIS are, indeed, very evil. I wouldn't go as far as to say it's a character flaw not to hate, but it certainly is a character flaw to condemn those who do for doing so.

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Response to Donald Ian Rankin (Reply #99)

Mon Sep 22, 2014, 06:27 PM

155. Hate is counterproductive.

 

It's what racists feel for black people. It's what homophobes feel for LGBTQ persons. It's what misogynists feel toward women.

It is not healthy or productive to hate.

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Response to Maedhros (Reply #155)

Tue Sep 23, 2014, 03:09 AM

161. It's what I feel for murderers. I'm afraid I think your platitudes are empty and meaningless. N.T.

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Response to Donald Ian Rankin (Reply #161)

Tue Sep 23, 2014, 12:43 PM

163. Hate can be manipulated by those with an agenda.

 

It one is feeling hate, one isn't thinking rationally.

So hate away! There's apparently nothing wrong with being a tool of the MIC.

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Response to Saboburns (Original post)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 02:54 PM

101. Well, Kony kinda fell off the face of social media, didn't he?

 

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Response to Saboburns (Original post)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 03:12 PM

105. do you not follow world news?

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Response to Saboburns (Original post)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 03:22 PM

107. Wow, that's a tough job they've taken on..

considering how loveable they are, and all.

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Response to Saboburns (Original post)


Response to Saboburns (Original post)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 04:05 PM

110. This is a good time to stop and reflect on the mistakes of the past decade.

Is the public going to respond as critical thinkers who refuse to be manipulated or instead will we make knee jerk emotional responses based on fear and anger?

It's hard to be optimistic when you see people on this very web site advocating the "kill 'em all let god sort 'em out" approach.

Let's all have a hearty round of B'aaaaaahs because it seems to me a substantial portion of the American public can't wait to make the same mistakes over and over again.

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Response to Saboburns (Original post)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 05:21 PM

117. Former President Carter wants you to hate ISIS

"Is the bombing of ISIS justified? I say yes."

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Response to FrodosPet (Reply #117)

Mon Sep 22, 2014, 10:10 AM

127. You know the MIC means business when they have even gotten to Jimmy Carter.

I wonder what leverage they have over him.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #127)

Mon Sep 22, 2014, 10:53 PM

159. MIC, TPTB...acronyms for those too chicken to type POTUS. nt

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Response to Saboburns (Original post)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 05:31 PM

118. ISIS is going to allow a few in the good ol' USA

 

to do another big bloody mess of money making. I suppose they are appreciated for that.

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Response to Saboburns (Original post)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 06:06 PM

120. We're supposed to hate the Danger Zone?




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Response to Saboburns (Original post)


Response to Saboburns (Original post)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 09:35 PM

124. Could it be . . .

You don't like people whose favorite hobby is beheading journalists and assorted other innocents?

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Response to Saboburns (Original post)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 11:25 PM

125. They're doing the things they were doing when we said the U.S. should withdrawal therefore the U.S.

needs to become more involved.

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Response to Saboburns (Original post)

Mon Sep 22, 2014, 11:20 AM

128. No current need for the media or a government to invent boogeymen when real monsters already exist

Often, an organization becomes quickly relevant due to its own actions; and through those actions, actively invites the hatred of others. No current need for the western media or a western government to invent boogeymen when real monsters already exist among us.



"Somebody sure wants me to hate ISIS..."
No doubt ISIS 'sure wants you to hate them'... as it fits well within their established and advertised itinerary.

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Response to Saboburns (Original post)

Mon Sep 22, 2014, 12:08 PM

137. Somehow, I am finding it hard for me to take them seriously.

Other than improving security here, in regards to finding credible threats, I don't see the point of this.

Attacks of opportunity don't mean a well organized system.

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Response to Saboburns (Original post)

Mon Sep 22, 2014, 10:52 PM

158. I don't hate them.

 

I don't love them.
They are of little concern to me.


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