Which side do you wish would win in the Scottish election?

[FSogol]

For me: Scottish Freedom and a big thumb in the eye of Right-wing British Politics.



See my other poll for you do you think will win:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025554377

41 votes, 4 passes | Time left: Unlimited
	The "Yes" side which wants Scottish Independence
	31 (76%)
	The "No" side which wants to remain part of the United Kingdom
	10 (24%)
	4 DU members did not wish to select any of the options provided.
Show usernames Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll

[TreasonousBastard]

1. I really can't imagine any reason why I should care...

although I have been to both and enjoyed the visits.

I just hope whatever happens it doesn't hurt either side too much.

[FSogol]

32. At any rate, it is an interesting glimpse into DU.

Two identical threads, one about wishes and one about prediction.

The wish thread was much more popular, with 545 views, 31 replies, 86 votes (he majority favoring Scotland) and 2 recs.
The prediction thread had 220 views, 5 replies, 21 votes (the majority favoring the UK) and 2 recs.

[pampango]

2. For the sake of the Scots, I hope YES wins. For the sake of the UK (and the rest of the world)

I hope NO wins.

Scots are very liberal and will be better off in the long run in a liberal Scotland not weighed down by a conservative UK.

However, without the liberal Scottish vote as a part of the UK electorate, Conservative governments will be in power forever in London. That's not good for anyone.

[tkmorris]

3. I honestly don't know

My kneejerk reaction is to hope "yes" wins out. I generally support ANY group's desire to self-govern, and the Scottish people have legitimate beefs with the way they have been treated by the English.

There are a lot of potential negative consequences to a split up however, both to Great Britain and possibly to Scotland. I am not sure the world becomes a better place if this happens.

[frazzled]

21. ANY group's desire to self-govern?

So, would that mean you'd be in favor of, say, Texas seceding from the US to self-govern as their own nation-state? (It's talked about all the time, and could come to a referendum there some day in the not distant future).

Would you have been in favor of the CSA back in the 19th century? I mean, not necessarily agreeing with their politics, but their right to secede from the nation and form their own country?

[riderinthestorm]

23. Scotland like Ireland used to be an independent nation.

That they've been exploited, hunted, killed and then occupied by the British for a couple hundred years doesn't erase their past nation hood.

[frazzled]

24. Well, some Texans say the same thing

There was, indeed, a Republic of Texas in the 19th century.

[riderinthestorm]

29. Has the US Government worked to exterminate Texans?

Last edited Thu Sep 18, 2014, 04:16 PM - Edit history (1)

Exploited their natural resources? Tried to eradicate its culture or language? Brutally oppressed Texans for centuries?

Native Americans yes. But not Texans. If NAs wanted to vote on independence as well, then I'd similarly support that.

Texas?

No.

[sabbat hunter]

57. They haven't been independent since

the Scottish Stuart king James VI took the English throne. Sounds more like the Scottish conquered the English than the other way around.

[tkmorris]

49. Mostly, yes

I will tell you that I have always wondered about whether the United States had the moral authority to go to war with the CSA simply to prevent them from seceding. Please note this has nothing to do with the CSA or what they may have stood for, it's more about whether one group of people has the right to tell another group of people that they may not govern themselves.

If Texas wanted to secede from the US, what moral right does the US have to tell them they cannot? This question has always troubled me, mainly because other people seem to feel the answer to it is settled doctrine, obvious in it's correctness. Perhaps the Civil War has indoctrinated us to feel that way. OBVIOUSLY the CSA was wrong, and OBVIOUSLY the US should have stopped them from seceding, and OBVIOUSLY the good guys won (that's the usual thinking anyway, at least in the North).

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

52. Anyone is, of course, free to renounce their US citizenship at any time.

Taking US land with them is the sticking point.

[MohRokTah]

53. The union is indivisible.

IT is unconstitutional for any state to secede once it joins the union.

[tkmorris]

60. Moral authority, not Constitutional

Just because it's in the Constitution doesn't make it morally correct. They are different issues.

[MohRokTah]

63. Morality is subjective.

For example, I consider secession incredibly immoral.

[frazzled]

66. I'm not so sure as you

However, I will say that at least the South did not try to secede and keep the US currency. Of course, we saw how that turned out.

I don't see why, if Scotland votes "yes" (and I'm really a tad neutral on the question), they should be allowed to keep the pound sterling as currency.

[Massacure]

77. I want to take your point of view and twist it a bit...

If the Union did not have the right to tell the Confederacy that they may not govern themselves, what right did the Confederacy have to tell African-Americans how they had to live their life (IE, as a slave)?

Take the issue of slavery out and I'd agree with you 100% though.

[JHB]

4. The Picts

Damn overdressed Scots, with their kilts

[pnwmom]

5. The liberal economist Paul Krugman thinks it would be a disaster for Scotland economically.

So I hope it doesn't happen, for their sakes.

[Nye Bevan]

42. Having a currency whose interest rate you do not control has proven to be disastrous.

Ask the Greeks or the Spaniards.

[pnwmom]

47. That was his fear. n/t

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

54. Wasn't that based on his assumption that they'd still share a currency with England?

And England has already said 'hell no you can't.'

So they'd be forced to have a separate currency anyway.

[F4lconF16]

76. Do you have a link where England stated that?

[Skidmore]

6. I'll remain more concerned about what happens here

and I'm sure the Scots are able to sort out their own needs.

[Shadowflash]

7. I don't live there

and have no skin in the game. I hope the vote goes the way it's best for them.

[librechik]

8. I want re-Balkanization everywhere.

Let's fight globalization with furious re-development of independent countries with their own national banks.

[hifiguy]

14. i like this idea.

Centralization only makes it easier for the 1% to rule the world.

[Puzzledtraveller]

35. You got that right

the 1%, has no allegiance, no loyalty to any country. They want a world government, a world bank.

[hack89]

17. Why are many small national banks a good idea?

it guarantees a bunch of weak, under capitalized economies.

[librechik]

19. yeah, that part is iffy--but at least there would be the chance for govt regulation

instead of all this banditry among the banks. Iceland did well with this strategy.

[Puzzledtraveller]

34. Right with ya librechik!!

[ieoeja]

37. Actually, balkanization serves globalization.

You would be surprised how many countries are home to more global corporate giants than citizens.

And look at what Reagan did by shifting tax burden from the federal government to the states. State taxes were pretty much a non-issue pre-1981. State A could not lure a company to relocate from state B through a tax-free deal because state taxes just weren't that big anywhere. The Reagan shift allowed those states to compete with one another in this manner, and they leapt at it.

That does not alleviate the need for that tax revenue. You and I are left making up the loss.

Corporations bigger than governments is already a problem. Balkanization excerbates that problem.

[underpants]

9. Willie!

http://m.smh.com.au/business/groundskeeper-willie-cries-freedom-for-scotland-but-boss-rupert-murdoch-prevaricates-20140915-10h2j6.html

[LiberalArkie]

10. My family fought for freedom from the Englanders too many times

I hope they finally get it. London has a big problem in that they don't have a deep water port for their submarines. Although the oil fields are almost dry, they are in Scotland.

I was looking at my family tree and saw how many of my kin on my dads side died at the hands of the kings of England.

[enlightenment]

18. Sassenach

is the pejorative you're looking for - "Englanders" sounds a bit like a cricket club.

[KamaAina]

11. I'm leaning Aye

and the other thumb goes in the eye of mega-corps like RBS who have threatened to take their marbles and go home.

[KamaAina]

12. For those of you who think it doesn't matter on this side of the pond

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025510837

[jberryhill]

13. I would not pretend to know the up/downsides of this thing

I hope everyone wins, no matter what the decision.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

15. Yes, for several reasons.

1. Schadenfraude: fucking british rule broke my land, i can want the same thing for theirs

2. I have been following the BBC and the NO side has made no good case just a lot of fear mongering

[La Lioness Priyanka]

36. India. A practice commonly used by the british called Divide and Conquer.

although, i suspect you know that, so you're just being glib.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

41. LOL. i guess misogynists little assholes feel entitled to create their own history. nt

[La Lioness Priyanka]

44. you're having quite the breakdown, aren't you? aww

[WinkyDink]

16. I'm for the United Kingdom.

[LittleBlue]

20. The UK is broken, the only question is whether today will be a clean break. Here is why

Parliament has already promised Scotland incentives to stay, incentives that the rest of the UK don't get. Meaning Scots will get preferential treatment. This will lead to acrimony among the rest of the UK. They will wonder why people who want to leave will get freebies while the rest of them won't.

Meanwhile in Scotland, the elderly will be solely responsible for the union's preservation. The 60+ heavily favor union, all others slightly to heavily favor independence. Every bad decision by parliament will be met with "well, we didn't want to stay anyway". Or "don't worry about it, we'll be gone from the UK in 10 years." Which is a lot different than channeling those energies toward the opposition party. Centrifugal forces will poison the political environment.

So I favor "yes" to avoid the political fallout of a close "no" vote. Unfortunately this means the rUK goes conservative, but there is no way to prevent that now that UKIP is taking over. The only good outcome for unionists today is a strong no vote, which doesn't appear likely if the polls are in any way accurate.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

56. While some have pointed out that the withdrawal of lefty Scots from Parliament

would drive England into solidly Conservative territory, I don't think it would last. We all know what happens when Conservatives are handed power - they completely screw over anyone who isn't rich. Hand England solidly over to RW'ers and there will be massive defections among the electorate within the decade of people thoroughly disgusted by the unholy mess the RW politicians will make of England. So instead of the fairly even split there is now, you'll have a solidly left Scotland, and a swing left in England as well as a result.

[Zorra]

22. Go Scotland! I mean that in every way. Nt

[Raffi Ella]

25. I don't know.

Change is exciting, Independence is always good but it's gotta be a scary prospect for Scotland. I've always thought Scotland should be their own entity, they are distinct from England. But I don't know what all that involves and the consequences of it so. I don't know.

I'm rooting for Scotland, whatever's best for them.

[bigwillq]

26. I want whatever the Scottish people want, and I wish them luck.

I would probably vote yes (for freedom).

[CanonRay]

28. I wish the Scots well either way

My wife and I were married there, and have traveled it from Gretna to Inverness. They are lovely, hospitable people. However, I fear that England will slip into the hands of the far right without the liberal Scots to balance them out.

[Aerows]

75. If the English are short-sighted enough

to allow themselves to fall into far right hands, like we do in Red States and the US as a whole, we suffer the consequences. Then we vote them out.

[still_one]

30. It doesn't matter what anyone else "wishes" except the people of Scotland.

[lunatica]

31. Getting our independence worked. Why shouldn't it for Scottland?

I'm all for independence.

[valerief]

38. If Scotland gets its independence, will it be bombed for its oil?

I mean, bombed for democracy?

[me b zola]

40. I believe in the right to self-determination

So...YES for Scottish independence.

[MohRokTah]

45. For the world, I hope the no side wins.

If Yes wins, the UK will take a giant step to the right and stay there for two generations.

[Generic Other]

48. So where does the Queen go?

She is the direct descendent of the Scottish King James Stuart who inherited the English throne. The Crown owns Holyroodhouse and Balmoral. The Royal family is Scottish on Elizabeth's mother's side as well. What a mad mess. Like a bloody divorce. The Scot ways and traditions beloved in the UK. This is Sean Connery not being 007. The Royals without kilts. Pomp and tradition without bagpipes. These are emotional ties, not political ones.

I understand that the Scots don't need England, but maybe England does need them because they represent such a large part of the national identity. There will be Scots in England and English in Scotland even after the vote.

And I sincerely wish the best for all.

And yes, the Scots have every reason and right to vote for independence given the history between the two countries. Sadly. But I will feel a twinge of sadness even though my family left in the 1840s. "Should Auld Acquaintance be forgot and never brought to mind?"

[Spider Jerusalem]

50. It's already been announced that an independent Scotland would retain the monarchy

there's ample precedent for it in Canada and Australia and New Zealand et cetera, and the Queen is monarch of Scotland already (as part of the Union of the Kingdom of Great Britain formed out of the kindgoms of England and Scotland in 1707). Americans who think of the Queen as "Queen of England" are both wrong and ignorant.

[Generic Other]

58. So we will still be allowed to have bagpipes at Buckingham Palace?

I guess I always assumed Scotland already had the same rights as Canada and Australia, et al. I was under the impression that the England and Scotland governed as one over other nations in the British Empire, then later the Commonwealth. Obviously not true. And being part of the Commonwealth is not exactly independent, is it? For example, if we attacked Canada, wouldn't England come to their defense?

Anyway, what an historic moment in Scotland's history.

Any news on the count, yet? Paper or electronic ballots?

[Spider Jerusalem]

59. The first results aren't expected until around 2am BST.

And this is the ballot:

https://s2.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/.O4Py5iaWjgMYeKQOJISYg--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7cT04NTt3PTYzMA--/

[Generic Other]

61. Doesn't look like a Florida butterfly ballot anyway!

Hard to imagine not wanting to take a symbolic stand.

Wonder if it will ever come to this in America?

[Spider Jerusalem]

62. A symbolic stand against what, exactly?

The Tories won't be in government forever.

[Generic Other]

64. Ghosts of Culloden

1745. I go to the Highland Games in the West. The clans still wear their plaids and speak of the auld days. They sing the old Jacobite songs, wail on the bagpipes, and grimace when they speak of the English. A romantic and doomed history.

[Spider Jerusalem]

65. That was centuries ago and doesn't much influence any reasons for Scots voting for independence...

or not, now. It's pretty largely irrelevant. (NB that Salmond and the SNP have said that an independent Scotland will retain the Queen as monarch and, significantly, not invite the current Jacobite claimant to be King of Scotland.)

[Generic Other]

68. No one would expect them to install a bonnie Stuart!

But it is true they have long memories. As do the Irish. Perhaps it is human nature to remember the old feuds. A long lingering example of the underlying animosity between the two countries concerns the Stone of Scone that the English captured in 1296. It was liberated in the 1950s by Scottish nationalists and returned to the Scots by the British in the 1990s to appease Scots who wanted to part with England. That's a long time to be fighting over a stone. And the unofficial national anthem is "Flower of Scotland" that celebrates the Scots defeating Edward's Army.

O flower of Scotland
When will we see
Your like again
That fought and died for
Your wee bit hill and glen
And stood against him
Proud Edward's army
And sent him homeward
Tae think again


2.
The hills are bare now
And autumn leaves lie thick and still
O'er land that is lost now
Which those so dearly held
And stood against him
Proud Edward's army
And sent him homeward
Tae think again


3.
Those days are passed now
And in the past they must remain
But we can still rise now
And be the nation again
And stood against him
Proud Edward's army
And sent him homeward
Tae think again

I find it hard to imagine a Scot with any sense of history voting to keep the union.

[Spider Jerusalem]

69. Actually this sort of historic sentimental bollocks..

seems to inform the opinions of American members of the Celtic diaspora far more than it does actual Scots and Irish.

[Generic Other]

70. I believe you are 100% right about that

Isn't this typical of immigrants? They romanticize the old country. They try to retain the traditions.

On the other hand, I have always believed the Scot's semi-official National Anthem was a call to action against the British. When the clans gather at the Highland Games in the Pacific Northwest, they are re-enacting their fur trading /Hudson Bay Company traditions as well as the older romantic Scot ones. Have you ever been to one of those events? It is a bit like stepping back a century.

[Spider Jerusalem]

71. I live in the UK

(not in Scotland, though!) and people here by and large are more concerned about the present and the future.

[Generic Other]

72. Of course your concerns are about current issues

But I live at the far reaches of the former British empire where your comment about a "Celtic diaspora" seems spot on. I grew up with men crying in their beer about Ireland, or thumping the table about Scotland, even the Confederate South...I saw a man weep over the singing of "Dixie." Powerful emotions, romantic bollocks (I love that word -- first time I've ever used it). Of course. I willingly acknowledge this.

So, not to change the subject but what's your feeling about it? Is it more symbolic than significant? On another thread they were likening the event to the Occupy movement. That was an interesting comparison.

[Spider Jerusalem]

74. It's both symbolic and significant

the SNP won a majority in the Scottish parliamentary elections in 2011 and were pledged to deliver a referendum on independence (it was in their manifesto). I expect "no" to win, but the result will be a significant constitutional change for the whole of the UK with further devolution of powers not just to Scotland but probably also the creation of a separate English parliament or regional assemblies (thus finally addressing the so-called "West Lothian question", where Scots and Welsh and Northern Irish MPs can vote in Parliament on issues which only affect England, but English MPs can't vote on similar issues that are devolved to the Welsh and Northern Irish assemblies and Scots parliament).

[Glassunion]

51. I want the Scottish people to get what they want.

Regardless if it is to stay in the union, or to gain independence.

It is their right, their vote, and their country to do with as they see fit.

[eissa]

55. I'm hoping for a YES win

No reason -- just for shits and giggles. I want to see how it all pans out.

[Kalidurga]

67. FREE SCOTLAND

I think the AYES are going to have it.

[NaturalHigh]

73. I don't know enough about it to say.