On Scotland voting on whether or not to stay.

[DonCoquixote]

Folks, by this time tomorrow, we will know whether or not Scotland is a part of the UK, or if those words "UK" mean anything anymore.

On the one hand, there are positives about Scotland going it's own way. Scotland has had centuries of a relationship that, even at it's best, has been full of strife. It is nice to see London try to make nice, I even believe they may be sincere about it, but honestly, when most of Ireland declared independence, would that not have been a better time to sweeten the pot for the Scots?

An Independent Scotland would be a more liberal country, and probably closer to Europe than London. In light of the lousy job that both Labor and Tory have done, would that not be a clear message that the Centre-left/third way stuff will not work anymore? Imagine for example, if Scotland thrived, that would shake the financial center of London, and thereby, also shake Wall Street.

In addition, it would be something epic for all humanity. A nation that had changed hands by a simple vote. Not an armed revolution as we Yanks did, and as the Irish later did, not even a heavy protest led non violent revolution, as did India. No, a Democratic vote, that idea mocked by both Rush Limbaugh and Ahudrunti Roy, would be the agent, that alone may do a lot to save what little civilization we have left.

On the other hand, there are some strong negatives. As Galloway pointed out, all the countries in the UK would be smaller, and the Scots would be a smaller voice within the EU, at a time when the EU is not showing a willingness to listen to her citizens, especially because they are too busy listening to Merkel's calls for austerity. Never mind that the EU was strong precisely because they rejected Anglo-American austerity, Merkel is too busy trying to be Margaret Thatcher. There is also the facts that the BRICS are LARGE NATIONS. Yes, I like some things Brazil and India are doing, and dislike others, but let's be honest, there is a lot about the current actions of both the Russians and Chinese that do NOT inspire confidence.

No, that is not a code word for "You yanks are just mad because Putin got the Ukraine back" it is the fact that both nations have shown themselves to have taken the worst aspects of Capitalism, with less and less of that nice Communist idealism.

All in all, if Scotland leaves, I wish them the best, because I truly think they have a chance to show the world that, as insane as we are, there is still a chance to abandon the primitive ways of settling disputes, and for all of us to actually work together, with respect, without the need for domination or Oppression.

Godspeed Scotland.

PS, if you decide to stay, take a lesson from the Quebecois. You not only have every right to demand that, in exchange for staying, you get to be a real influence on the UK, but it is your duty, to the world as well as yourselves. After all, the fact that France has demanded a true multicultural scheme has kept Canada from keeping it's character, despite it's southern neighbor. You can demand that England, if it wants you, has to change as well, and if not, then let you be a bunch of ex spouses that still remain friends, and work together for the sake of the children.

[CJCRANE]

1. What was missing from the "No" campaign

as far as I can tell, was them wishing Scotland well, whatever choice they made.

The "No" side seemed to be mostly negative, all about warning the Scots of disaster if they went their own way, telling them that there's no turning back, that's it, if you make the wrong decision you have to live with it.

The "No" campaign came across as a codependent spouse or a dominating parent.

[DonCoquixote]

2. aye

especially when they kept saying they cannot have the pound. Considering several hundred years of Scotch labor helped make that pound what it was, there seemed to be a lot of Malice, like some old man who yells "You will starve without me!"

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

6. Of course, they can't keep the pound

What happens when Scotland's economy goes belly up? Who is going to be backing sterling? It will be the citizens of the remaining countries of the U.K. Frankly, I wish the Scots all the best, but think they are stupid to believe that they can keep the pound.

[Denzil_DC]

7. Joseph Stiglitz, among many others, disagrees with you:

...Prof Joseph Stiglitz, the Nobel prize-winning economist, says a currency union would be accepted after a yes vote because the Scottish and UK economies were so closely intertwined. Stiglitz, one of Salmond’s key economic policy advisers, says the UK government is bluffing over its opposition to a currency union.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/03/can-scotland-be-independent-sterling

For balance, the Adam Smith Institute seems pretty sanguine about the whole thing too:

An independent Scotland that carried on using the pound without the permission of the rest of the UK would have a stronger economy than it does now, a free-market thinktank said on Thursday.

The Adam Smith Institute said the country would not only survive but thrive outside of a formal currency union provided there were changes to the banking system to inject competition and reduce risk-taking.

{snip}

Adding to the political debate between the yes and no camps about the currency regime for a post-independent Scotland, the ASI said the nationalist leader Alex Salmond should follow the example of Panama, which uses the US dollar as its currency and does not have its own central bank.

Sam Bowman, the ASI's research director, said Scotland should adopt a two-pronged approach – unilateral use of the pound together with the removal of protections for banks that allow them to engage in risky behaviour without suffering the consequences.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/aug/21/scottish-independence-pound-thinktank-thrive-currency

Are they stupid?

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

9. No, but a bit over confident in their predictions

Imagine being a sovereign state with no ability to print your own money.

And then tying yourself to the EU. Certainly, there are advantages to being part of the EU, but there the Scots are fooling themselves if they believe they are voting on independence.

[sibelian]

10. "Imagine being a sovereign state with no ability to print your own money."

Yeah PANAMA - 6th most stable banking system in the world, better than most of Europe.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

11. But not working well for PIGS in the EU, is it?

Nor those countries that are having to bail them out.

[Denzil_DC]

12. So they're not stupid, then?

If not, presumably the Scots considering voting Yes aren't "stupid" either, so we're getting somewhere. But now I see they're "fooling themselves," so perhaps it's one step forward and two steps back.

Now perhaps you can enlighten me as to why I should trust your judgment more than the "over confident" Joseph Stiglitz and the Adam Smith Institute, both of which happen to be extremely familiar with both the UK and Scottish economies?

Fact is, there are quite a few economies which don't have their own currency and haven't collapsed despite that, but you can look all that up for yourself since it seems to be a gap in your knowledge.

As for the EU, that's not a strong field of argument at the moment given that if Cameron has his way there'll be a referendum in 2017 that could see the UK withdraw from the EU anyhow. By the way, Scotland has done pretty well from EU funding over the years and is a lot less insular-thinking than the south east of England in particular.

[muriel_volestrangler]

13. However, Stiglitz and the ASI are talking about 2 different things

The currency union is where the 'Bank of England' is part-controlled by Scotland as well as 'NotScot', and it backs Scottish banks. Sterlingization is where the pound is used without any formal arrangement.

But, as the Sept 3rd article says, the EU rules say the latter is unacceptable for a member country, and the Yes campaign is built around EU membership. So it would be a question of Scotland persuading, by fair means or foul, the rest of the UK that it should stay in fiscal and monetary union with Scotland - that one central bank should set monetary policy, and both governments should cooperate to make that a viable area, like the Euro. And then we ask if the Euro really is that great a model.

[Denzil_DC]

21. They're discussing two scenarios, yes.

If you watched the first debate, although Salmond made plain what he favored, he wasn't dogmatic that this had to be the outcome of negotiations. All he got from Darling in response was petulant bluster and a refusal to accept that any country can use any currency it chooses. The fact is, the UK would be weaker without Scotland's economic involvement. That's likely to factor into negotiations if Yes wins, when the posturing for real can begin as the terms of separation are thrashed out.

Then the impending referendum on UK membership of the EU complicates matters (assuming it happens).

It has to be said, Cameron made this bed by vetoing the inclusion of Devo Max on the ballot. It would have barely been worth holding the vote, as all the polls showed extremely decisive majorities for that.

[DonCoquixote]

15. Then do not be surprised

When Moscow and Beijing come in, offering help. Oil + Strategic locations + England's alliance to the Yanks =a great way to say FU to Washington.

[redruddyred]

4. yeah they seemed to harp on and on upon the same issues

there didn't seem the same commitment to change whereas salmond was passionate in arguing his case.

[liberalhistorian]

14. Precisely. And I keep hearing the old

Lou Rawls song "You're Gonna Miss My Loving" whenever I see or hear British leaders talking about it or talking to the Scots. Then again, Great Britain HAS kind of perfected that attitude over the centuries.

[DonCoquixote]

16. Not to mention "Just say naw"

I mean, you would THINK George Galloway would be dressed in woad a la Mel Gibson, chanting "freedom", especially as it would reduce London so much in stature, but the best he can do is "just say naw?"

[DonCoquixote]

17. That attitude

"miss my loving.." In other words, the attitude that a husband who beats his wife, denigrates at every turn, taker her money, and other abuses has when the wife finally says "I am sick of this shit."

London, the time to start wooing Scotland came around 1916, when people in Glasgow saw a Free Dublin and wondered what that would be like. Instead, you doubled down on the hitting.

[Justitia]

3. The American in me is encouraging Scotland ~ "C'Mon, you can do this!!"

I have no ill feelings whatsoever in regards to the UK, I was an ex-pat in London for awhile & loved it there.

There is just a piece of my DNA that wants Scotland to strike out on her own and would be thrilled for her if she did!

know what I mean?

Scotland, you got this!

[muriel_volestrangler]

5. Actually, it's by this time *on Friday* the result will be known

Voting starts 7am UK time on Thursday (2am Eastern), and ends 10pm. Results will be announced by local council region; the big ones of Glasgow and Edinburgh are expected to announce at 5am, Friday Scottish time (ie midnight Eastern). That may be when the result becomes clear; the last expected result is Aberdeen, around 6am, so if it's really close, they may have to wait for that.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/16/scottish-referendum-voting-no-carnage-polling-day

[Denzil_DC]

8. John Curtice said on the BBC the other day

that it's likely to be too close to call till a late stage, but one region to watch is Dumfries & Galloway, which may declare earlier - if it goes Yes, it's probably all over, he reckons.

[DonCoquixote]

18. mea culpa

though this moment is still strong. The last moment that had this sort of flavor was when the Berlin Wall came down.

[muriel_volestrangler]

19. It's all right - I just didn't want DUers saying "where are the results? Where are the results?"

I'd found that page shortly before, and this was a good thread to post it in.

[KamaAina]

20. Scotland's admission to the EU is far from guaranteed

the vote would have to be unanimous, and Spain and others are worried that Scotland's admission would encouage their own separatists (in Spain's case, the Catalans and Basques).

http://www.democraticunderground.com/11333784

P.S. "France has demanded a true multicultural scheme"? You mean Quebec, n'est-ce pas?

[Denzil_DC]

22. Spain makes extensive use of Scotland's territorial waters for fishing.

The United Kingdom and Spain have had several recent disputes over fishing rights, particularly with regards to the European Union's Common Fisheries Policy. When Spain became a member state in 1986, she had the world's sixth largest fishing fleet, and much of the economies of Galicia, Asturias, and Cantabria depended upon catches by Spanish boats outside Spain's national Exclusive Economic Zone, just as they do today.

To prevent the fleets of other EU members (particularly Spain) taking up the UK's Common Fisheries Policy quota, the UK sought to create a framework that discriminated between British- and Spanish-owned boats, regardless of flag flown, so that its waters wouldn't be over-fished by foreign-owned trawlers. Due to fishing's importance to some of the regional economies of Spain, the Spanish government protested vehemently, but had no power to prevent the UK determining its own domestic policies. However, when the Single European Act was implemented, in 1987, this became illegal under EU law, and a Spanish company successfully challenged the right of the British government to prevent Spanish fishermen taking up the British quota in what has now become known as the Factortame case. In total, £55m has been paid out by the British government to Spanish parties (both public and private) for loss of earnings.

To this day, the large Spanish fishing fleet does the majority of its fishing outside Spain's EEZ, as far away as Canada and Namibia. Nonetheless, a large part of its business comes from fishing in the waters of northern Europe, particularly those of the United Kingdom and Ireland. At times of debate of the United Kingdom's declining fish stocks, this has caused strained relations between Spain and the UK, and particularly between Spain and the membership of the devolved Scottish institutions, since Scotland is more dependent upon fishing than the rest of the UK.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain%E2%80%93United_Kingdom_relations#Fishing_dispute

If you can find Scottish-caught langoustines in Scotland at all, your eyes are likely to water more at the price than your mouth will. Go to Barcelona and they're dirt-cheap and plentiful.

If the EU wants to cut off a significant nearby fishing ground from its members and Spain wants to play its part in promoting this course of action, that's obviously its prerogative, but it may not prove popular domestically. The Scottish Government has already made plain it's prepared to play hardball over this: http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/snp-in-threat-to-block-foreign-fishing-boats-from-north-sea.21443529 and http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/10147764/Alex-Salmond-threatens-to-blockade-North-Sea-over-EU-membership.html

Scotland has a few such favorable cards in its hand.

[suffragette]

23. "Should I Stay or Should I Go?"

http://m.

Your OP title made me think of this