What can the NFL do immediately to improve their image? Get rid of cheerleaders...

[PoutrageFatigue]

Yup, I know, that may seem sacrilegious to some, but in light of James Brown's commentary last night on CBS before the Thursday Night Game, MEN in general, and the NFL specifically, need to change the way they look at women. And the best way to do that, and the best way to show that the NFL really is serious about facing this issue, is to get rid of the gyrating eye-candy on the sideline.

Don't get me wrong, I like looking at pretty women as much as any another guy, but there is something deeply unsettling about the message that NFL cheerleaders send out, that the only role in this particular testosterone-filled arena is as mute, buxom sex objects.

What sort of message does that send to young girls and women out there? The only way to participate, to get noticed is to act like quasi-strippers? I don't think that's a healthy message, and certainly not one that suggests that the NFL "respects" women. The NFL can have an entire month where the players wear pink for breast cancer awareness, but until they get rid of the cheerleaders they continue to display an abject lack of awareness about women in general.

[randome]

1. Let's not be too hasty, now.

Kidding. I don't watch any of the 'games' anyways and you're right, cheerleaders have nothing to do with the supposed objective.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]The truth doesn’t always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one you’re already in.[/center][/font][hr]

[yeoman6987]

33. All those women out of work

What utter nonsense.

[randome]

35. Maybe I didn't think that through enough.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Birds are territorial creatures.
The lyrics to the songbird's melodious trill go something like this:
"Stay out of my territory or I'll PECK YOUR GODDAMNED EYES OUT!"[/center][/font][hr]

[yeoman6987]

43. I understand your overall point

Your heart is in the right place. Everything just seems so difficult today. I guess the adage life is hard, is true.

[treestar]

63. They can get other jobs.

Not that hard. It's not a major part of the economy.

[yeoman6987]

76. Holy cow! Are you for real?

[caraher]

172. For most of them the pay is negligible as I understand it

This discussion seems typical.

After two preseason games and eight regular-season home games, most cheerleaders earn about $500 to $750 per season, depending on which team they cheer for and whether that team plays any additional home games in the playoffs.

Few cheerleaders earn a living this way.

My sister-in-law's high school best friend was an NFL cheerleader (Washington, actually) for a year or two. It was just a hobby/dream thing for her. I think she would have done it for free.

[roody]

176. Didn't they have to sue just to get

minimum wage?

[big_dog]

129. the Green Bay cheerleaders are quite modest!

[GoCubsGo]

152. That's what I think of when I hear the word "cheerleader."

Not buxom women in modified bikinis and go-go boots.

[caraher]

173. The Lions used to simply invite high school squads

I thought that was great - high school kids got to be on the big stage.

[Cleita]

2. Of course it's the women's fault. Isn't it always? n/t

[NYC_SKP]

4. Yes, this is victim blaming. It's the womens' fault.

Poor men.

Somedays it doesn't pay to check in on DU, it just raises my blood pressure.

I thought we were the smarter, better, side of the aisle.

[PoutrageFatigue]

12. Are you mad? How in the wide, wide world of sports is this VICTIM blaming?

This is blaming the NFL for perpetuating the notion that women are objects simply there for male gratification, how can any organization that claims to value the input of women be taken seriously when they still under-pay women to act like R-Rated strippers on the sideline?

How in the FUCK is that victim blaming....

Good grief!!!!

[NYC_SKP]

15. You're worried about the NFL's image???? How about male cheerleaders and female players?

You remind me of people who think that banning drugs or guns will cure the depression that's behind their abuse.

It's surface treatment that ignores the root problem, in this case violent behavior.

The only good point you make, and you make it poorly, is that NFL games are gender exclusive. So, you, say, remove the cheerleaders. Brilliant, not.

The solution is to let women play and add male cheerleaders.

Problem solved.

I'd love to hear an argument against that.

[cleanhippie]

18. Do you mean a Women's Football League?

Or a mixed gender league?


Male cheerleaders? Don't see why not. Although they will look pretty ridiculous in those skimpy, sexist outfits. YMMV.

[NYC_SKP]

27. Mixed gender coed sports, like today's military and today's CEOs and every other thing.

Why the hell not?

Why are only men allowed into this very highly paid field?

[cleanhippie]

31. Why the hell not?

Why are only men allowed into this very highly paid field?

You tell me. You seem to know.

I'm sure it has noting to do with the fact that the game requires 300lb humans to repeatedly smash themselves into one another over and over and over...

[NYC_SKP]

37. Well, it was only a matter of time. Yes, those frail women, all weak and everything.

Somebody had to go there.

[cleanhippie]

49. Are we talking about the same sport here?

The one where most of the players started learning and training for this game while pre-pubescent, and over the course of YEARS rose to the elite level of Professional Football Player because of their size, strength, agility, and ability to withstand violence? That is the sport I'm talking about.

Perhaps you should spearhead the movement to open the Pop Warner, Jr/High school, and College leagues to mixed genders. Anyone, male or female, that makes "the cut" as it currently exists is welcome to try out for the NFL. I'm all for that. Seriously. Anyone that can compete at the level of NFL, man or woman, should be allowed to play, and paid the same.

Yeah, I went there. To reality. You should join me.

[NYC_SKP]

52. We have coed little league, soccer, and football now for younger ones.

Your sick male-only sport is going to die.

BTW, women come in all strengths and sizes.

[cleanhippie]

69. "Your sick male-only sport is going to die. "

Reality. It's what's for dinner. Have two helpings.

[NYC_SKP]

78. Typical NFL sports fan reaction.

I'm sorry for the fan-types with their face-paint and love for beer and grease.

But more for their kids, who have to learn the antisocial behaviors associated with pro sports, who could instead be taking walks in nature, or doing public service, or learning useful things.

Bread and circuses, my friend. You're soaking in it.

[cleanhippie]

79. Your POV seems divorced from reality.

Perhaps you should draw a hot bath of reality and have a long soak. It's what I'm soaking in and it feels great.

[Travis_0004]

105. women are allowed in the NFL

I think it was last year that a woman tried out as a kicker. Ahe didnt do that well.

[ProfessorGAC]

38. There Is The WNBA

Every team loses money and the NBA subsidizes ownership to keep the league going. Therein lies a possible answer to your query.

First, it isn't men only, it's men mostly. (Ever heard of Serena Williams?)

Secondly, excepting tennis where women's matches usually exceed the men for TV ratings, there is simply not the popular support for the product offered by women athletes.

While the players in the WNBA are very good, they are simply not close to as good as the NBA. The skill and athleticism gap is wide enough that the product is deemed lower quality. Hence, even with far lower ticket prices, far fewer attend the games.

And even with national television exposure few watch the games.

It seems to me to ba analogous to why minor league baseball isn't as well attended as MLB games. The quality of the product is very good, but not at the highest level.
GAC

[GummyBearz]

70. *crickets*

Very well put there professor

[PoutrageFatigue]

24. So your solution is to "let women play and add male cheerleaders"...

And i'm the one that's missing the point?

[Comrade Grumpy]

85. You are welcome to start your own coed professional football league.

[NYC_SKP]

89. The Federal Government should shut down the sexist and misogynist NFL (nt)

[Comrade Grumpy]

100. Write your congressman. n/t

[NYC_SKP]

104. I prefer this moment to reveal those who enable the NFL, which enables violence against women.

I can't believe I'm reading an OP that's concerned about the NFL image and suggests ways to fix it instead of taking them to task for their enabling of domestic violence.

If they really want to improve their image, they will come out strongly against domestic violence, all violence, and institute rules and consequences for their players' behaviors on and off the field.

It's all about the $$$$.

People who refuse to see that need to look inward.

[Comrade Grumpy]

112. Knock yourself out. n/t

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

153. Ridiculous.

I'd just be happy if taxpayers didn't foot the bill for the stadiums!

(And I'm a fan of football. )

[NYC_SKP]

156. Well, that, too. Taxpayers making owners richer.

Owners looking the other way when shit happens.

Failure to report could lead to liability.

There's a lot of low hanging fruit owners can pick if they would stop doing damage control and admit they have a problem.

They're like junkies, but not much different from most powerful business interests.

[cleanhippie]

178. Bwahahahahahahahahaha!

Now I know all your blather was sarcastic.



Well played, skip. Well played.

[NYC_SKP]

3. Seriously? How about getting rid of the stupid ass violence out on the field. Victim blaming?

Attractive women made it happen, are you serious???

Fucking unbelievable.

Is this what you're suggesting?:

There's nothing wrong with a couple good old guys playing "war" out in the field, I mean that's sportsmanship!

Bang heads, Kill 'em!

Damn those female cheerleaders though, they MAKE men do mean things!!!

Why do they DO THAT?

Bullshit and WTF?

Maybe we should just end the fucking Domestic Violence enabling NFL.

[Cleita]

5. If scantily clad dancers inspire violence how come dancers in Broadway

musicals don't? It's shifting the blame from where it belongs, the violence of the game itself. I don't know much about football but a football fan once told me that even the most gifted player couldn't compete if he didn't have a killer gene in him because of the violence of the game. I don't know how true this is but it is something to think about.

[kcr]

14. Broadway only uses women for eye candy? No female actors and singers?

Only scantily clad dancers? Well, that isn't true, is it? Hardly equivalent to the NFL. And the point isn't blaming the cheerleaders for domestic violence. The point was about the NFL's reputation. If they want to claim to care about women, one way they could improve their reputation in that department was cheerleaders and the message that sends. Broadway performers have scantily clad performers but they also have women who aren't. The point isn't that women should never be scantily clad.

[Cleita]

130. For one thing, the cheerleaders are dancers and athletes in their own right.

Most of them do it as a gateway to an acting and entertainment career. I work out at the gym with a middle aged, married woman with grown children, who once was a Raiders cheerleader. She aspired to an acting career but like many, didn't make it to the big leagues. She's still a fine athlete and dancer, who does little theater in our community on occasion. Oh, and she sings too.

They could use better pay, but what you are suggesting is putting a group of women out of work. I don't think that is helpful.

[kcr]

143. You'd have a point if that were the only gateway available

for women who want to pursue a dancing and acting career. But it isn't. I think it's safe to eliminate an extremely poorly paid and notoriously abusive and pointless avenue of employment for women. I'll give you that it's dancing, but athletic? Sorry, but no. They aren't meant to be admired for athleticism.

[Cleita]

144. In the eye of the beholder. Most of them work very hard at being as

mediocre as you are trying to paint them.

[kcr]

146. Well, good for them, I guess.

I don't think anyone is arguing that they don't work hard or that no one cares to look at them.

[jwirr]

16. Who said they insprire violence? I read this to mean that women are being used in this position. We

have used women (often scantily dressed) for everything from selling cars to selling sports. And I remember distinctly being against this type of exploitation in the 60s. It in no way enhances a woman's image to be connected to exploitation of her person.

After seeing the way the NFL reacted to the exposure of the abuse I watched the cheerleaders and wondered what they were thinking. They are women and they are not stupid. It would not have made me feel good to be connected in any way with these owners or players.

[Cleita]

135. Nobody said they inspire violence. Some of us had said the sport is violent

and the cheerleaders shouldn't be blamed for it.

[KittyWampus]

21. So using women purely as sex objects is okay if it's on Broadway?

[kcr]

36. Nooooo...

But there is a difference. For on thing it's not as if Broadway only purely objectifies women and never employs women entertainers for any other reason. I'm not denying the sexual objectification, but comparing Broadway to the NFL is ridiculous. Remove scantily clad women from Broadway and you'd still have plenty women performers contributing.

[Cleita]

137. Those women don't inspire violence and shouldn't be blamed for it.

Removing the cheerleaders from football will not make the game less violent. That has to be the league and players themselves who change the game from the inside.

[kcr]

139. But no one is claiming cheerleaders inspire violence nor are they blaming them for it.

You're creating that argument out of thin air.

[PoutrageFatigue]

13. You need to seriously re-read the OP...you are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay off base...

A) I never said this "There's nothing wrong with a couple good old guys playing "war" out in the field, I mean that's sportsmanship! Bang heads, Kill 'em!Damn those female cheerleaders though, they MAKE men do mean things!!!Why do they DO THAT?"

And B) Nowhere, NOWHERE AT ALL did i say, or suggest, other than inside YOUR head, that "Attractive women made it happen."

I said nothing remotely close to your wildly inaccurate assertions, in fact I said the polar opposite, but sure, whatever floats your strawman...

[NYC_SKP]

17. Not trying to paraphrase you, that's a mindset of many fans and players. You care about NFL's image

Which is just as worrisome.

Add male cheerleader, male and female. Also, let women into the boys club and be players.

Why not?

[PoutrageFatigue]

26. Why not? Because it won't happen, and it doesn't address the most obvious problem...

...that women are treated as sexual objects as long as cheerleaders parade along the sidelines...

[NYC_SKP]

32. Disallowing women from playing and earning $$$$ is the ULTIMATE sexist NFL thing to do.

[Goblinmonger]

61. Any woman who can play at that level will be drafted

and would be recruited by a college. So far, that has only happened at the kicker position. Do you realize the level of physical capability and skill set required to compete in D1 college sports, specifically football.

[NYC_SKP]

34. You say, "Women can't play AND we they shall NOT work as cheerleaders, either!"

So, tell me.

What in your world are women allowed to do?

Can they work in the concession stands, maybe do dishes and sweep?

[PoutrageFatigue]

57. Nice strawman/woman....

So, to be clear, you are fine with cheerleaders as they are, because if we removed them that would be sexist AND making them the victims...

Do i have that right?

[MADem]

131. You need to get up to speed on this topic--women would make way more money in the concession stands.

Cheerleader "pay" is a joke--it's essentially a VOLUNTEER position that makes the NFL franchises millions. The women have to try out for it, get cut from the squad if they aren't perky enough or thin enough or busty enough--but they get paid shit.

So how much do they get paid? How much, or rather how little, NFL Cheerleaders get paid is one of the league's better kept secrets. NFL teams bring in enormous profits – hundreds of millions of dollars every year – yet NFL Cheerleaders get paid nearly nothing. Truly, a waitress at Applebee's makes more per shift than an NFL Cheerleader makes per game. An experienced cheerleader can make about $1,000 to $1,500 per month. Most cheerleaders make far less than that. After two preseason games and eight regular season home games, most NFL cheerleaders make $500 to $750 per SEASON. If that's not embarrassing enough, keep in mind that NFL Mascots earn between $23,000 and $65,000 per year. Mascots also get benefits and bonuses and they don't have to prance about practically naked. To put it into even more perspective, let's take a look at a player on an NFL team's practice squad. These men never make a play during an actual game and they make about $100,000 per season. Over a season (16 games) that works out to $6,250 per game.


Cheerleaders clearly cannot subsist on cheerleading alone, The average per game salary for a cheerleader is $70-$150. Like I said, they'd make more money at Applebee's. Cheerleaders also put in an enormous amount of time practicing – sometimes up to six hours per practice, several nights a week. Factor in full time jobs and you're looking at a very long day. Oh, and cheerleaders are not compensated for practice time, further driving their hourly rate down. And don't forget, game days can be 12-hours long as well, for a mere $70-150 paycheck.

There is an opportunity for cheerleaders to make a little extra money through public appearances. Every cheerleader is required to make a number of non-paid public appearances throughout the season. Paid public appearances can bring in some extra cash as can being a part of a group within a squad. The Dallas Cowboys Cheerleaders' Show Group, which selects the very best dancers from the squad for a smaller team that does public appearances and performances, is an example of this.

With such a low salary, you may be wondering why anyone wants to be an NFL Cheerleader. Well, consider the fact that most of these young women have a dance and/or cheer stunt backgrounds and they may simply enjoy doing it. For many it's about performing, not about money. However, being an NFL cheerleader can lead to good networking opportunities and a much better paying job in the future. If a former Dallas Cowboys Cheerleader goes in to interview for a position in Texas, don't you think her history as one of America's Sweethearts holds some sway with hiring managers? It's good PR for a company to have a former cheerleader on staff.

http://www.celebritynetworth.com/articles/entertainment-articles/much-nfl-cheerleader-make-nfl-cheerleader-salary/


Unpaid college internships are illegal, now--this kind of employee eploitation should be illegal, too.

[NYC_SKP]

136. I learned that today, about the pay, but the OP is still misguided.

The NFL needs to reach more deeply than this if they want to make a lasting and meaningful difference.

Cheerleaders? Meh. How about stricter policies, transparency, counseling.

While they're at it, though, http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2014/09/10/ray-rice-domestic-violence-cheerleaders/

One thing I've read that's even worse than this OP is an article from today in Philly:

NFL sends mixed message on women

snippet:

While the league covers up and obfuscates and dithers around until it figures a way to create the mere appearance of change again, here's one simple thing Roger Goodell could stand in front of the American people and say:

"Folks, we're getting out of the cheerleader business."

Now, that would be for appearances, too. It would be a symbolic message that the league understands that part of the problem is related to objectifying women, which it does by parading them around in skimpy outfits that are little more than lingerie with logos. The cheerleaders are there, to a large degree, for the pleasure of the male customers and it's fine to leer at them and whistle at them and view them as whatever you like, with the possible exception of "equals."

Read more at http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/eagles/20140912_NFL_sends_mixed_message_on_women.html#gOJB2iSEiCv4udcJ.99

[MADem]

151. The "policy" needs to be that, regardless of the crime, football players aren't above the law.

The NFL shouldn't "cover up" for football players, smooth over the rough spots, mitigate the criminality, tell them all is well, and let them get on with their lives, and then only profess "outrage" when they get CAUGHT.

And that is what apparently happened here. The NFL fired the elevator puncher for something they've KNOWN ALL ALONG that he did. The only "crime" as far as they are concerned is that someone leaked the video--so now, what was once "OK" is now NOT "OK."

I think there just might be a connection between how talented/well performing a player is, and how far the league will go for him. In other words, if they're not so hot anymore, they'll be under the bus in no time.

The cheerleaders are just a distraction, like everything else. The NFL obviously doesn't care about them--they've been exploited for years. The women tolerate it because they "hope" to parlay it into something better, like connections, a good job or a spokesperson gig--some kind of improvement to their lives. It's not right, though.

The real issue here is that the NFL had the video and they pretended they didn't. They said up until a few days ago that it was "vague" what happened in that elevator when the perp himself flat-out told the NFL a half a year ago that he punched his fiancee, that he was guilty of the crime.

This is all about protecting the "reputation" (such as it is) of the NFL. It isn't about protecting players, certainly, as they will be abandoned the minute the story falls apart, and it sure as hell isn't about protecting women, either girlfriends or fiancees or spouses or even 'special friends.'

It's all about not making BIG FOOTBALL "look" bad. As soon as the heat is off them, they'll go back to business as usual, warning their players to just not get caught.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

155. A lot of these cheerleaders would "cheer" for free

Exposure and all that.

Meeting the players and rich men, being on tv...there's a type who aspires to that sort of thing.

[MADem]

158. What's your point? That exploitation is OK if maybe someone can gain from it?

That One Percenter attitude that a laborer is not worthy of his (or her) hire won't take you very far around these parts.

[LanternWaste]

23. What are the precise additions relevant in any measurable way to the outcome of the game, that cheer

What are the precise additions relevant in any measurable way to the outcome of the game, that cheer-leading brings?

[treestar]

64. you must realize that the women in question are objects

they can't be blamed. The OP is clearly blaming, if anyone, the NFL (or more to the point, the patrons)

[Capt. Obvious]

6. I have an even better idea

Outlaw vulture touchdowns. Dennis Pitta should have had those 2 TD grabs last night.

[sarisataka]

7. Rather than blaming and punishing women

for NFL sexism (I say punishing because as far as I know the women choose to be cheerleaders, they are not forced out there) how about paying them a decent wage for their work and come up with ways to make them team ambassadors rather than just be eye candy...

[kcr]

8. Isn't that the OP's point?

That's basically their job in the NFL. Being eye candy. I guess you could give them entirely different jobs. But that's essentially getting rid of cheerleaders. The OP's point isn't blaming the victim.

[sarisataka]

28. No,

the claim is the NFL has a sexist culture (it does) and treats women as sex objects (they do)

...so the answer is to remove the only visible female presence in football

That is victim blaming and does nothing to change the culture

[kcr]

39. How is that victim blaming? Explain the logic, please.

Do the cheerleaders insert themselves into football by force, somehow? I'm seriously not understanding your point, here.

[sarisataka]

45. Gladly

Some football players have abuse issues and the NFL only uses women in sexist stereotypes.

Obviously that is because of scantily clad cheerleaders (who were put there by the team)

So if we just eliminate the women from the role we assigned them all will be well...

No blame assigned to the players or NFL... just to women.

[kcr]

48. Who were put there by the team

Exactly. So why are you claiming that the cheerleaders themselves are being blamed?

[sarisataka]

53. They are being blamed

for their limited role. There is no demand for teams to treat the cheerleaders fairly.

I see it as a corporation with a glass ceiling who tells a woman, you have been here ten years but have not made it to VP so we have to let you go. All VPs are men but that is not the company's fault...

[kcr]

56. Who is blaming them for their limited role?

Cheerleaders themselves aren't the ones being blamed. I continue to be confused by your claims.

[sarisataka]

77. I don't know how to be more clear

Dear Cheerleader,
It has come to our attention that your roll with your team has been unfair.
You have had poor working conditions, demeaning expectations, held to higher standards and subject to stricter discipline than the players.
Through all this you have been paid a pittance.

In light of this and the sexist way we have utilized you it has been decided that change is needed.

You're fired.

Sincerely,

the NFL

[kcr]

83. Not seeing the blame

It seems more your argument isn't that cheerleaders in the NFL are'nt damaging to the NFL's reputation, but that it's job elimination and that is not fair to cheerleaders. But you're expressing it as something completely different and accusing others of blaming instead, which makes no sense.

I agree that it doesn't seem fair that they get fired for something that isn't their fault. And it isn't their fault that their jobs were created in the first place. But that doesn't mean that jobs that shouldn't have been created in the first place should continue because firing is bad and people don't like to be fired.

[sarisataka]

88. Typically the person blamed

For a problem is the one punished.

Who gets punished in this scenario and what is the consequence to the person who created the situation?

[kcr]

96. That's about as big of a stretch as I've ever seen.

Do you think the labor reform movement was punishing and blaming the children when they moved to outlaw child labor? People actually made that argument. It was bad for them and their families to lose their jobs. And before you go there because I have a feeling you will, no I'm not comparing cheer leading to child labor, but your logic in blame apportioning. The argument against the NFL isn't blaming the cheerleaders anymore than those who fought to banish child labor were blaming the children.

[treestar]

65. So if I want to get rid of prostitution, I'm blaming the prostitutes?

[sarisataka]

73. Do you deny

Any blame to their customers? If so, yes.

Are you saying being a cheerleader is no different than being a prostitute?

[treestar]

189. some people can't do analogies I guess

The issue at hand is wanting to get rid of something is blaming the people doing it and therefore we should continue to support it, just because there are some people doing it.

Yes, the customers should be blamed. They are the ones turning people into products.

[PoutrageFatigue]

74. Apparently, yes...

[wryter2000]

181. I didn't read the OP that way at all

It said that if the NFL considered women human beings, the NFL wouldn't display them as t&a for the titillation of male fans. Nowhere did it say women caused violence on or off the field.

[ProfessorGAC]

40. The Cheerleaders Are The Only Visible Presence?

You are aware, i think, that there are 70 or 80 thousand people at these games and 30 or 40% are women.

How would the cheerleaders be the only visible female presence when there are 25 or 30 thousand women in the arena?

[sarisataka]

46. Last I heard,

the NFL doesn't hire the people in the stands. The NFL and teams are what we are speaking about here.

[ProfessorGAC]

122. That Is Not, However, What You Wrote

And, i don't know about all teams, but when the Bears did have cheerleaders, they weren't paid. Expenses were covered and that was it. We knew a woman who worked at a restaurant that her dad owned when i used to work up near the west side of Chicago. She told us she didn't get paid and i have no reason to doubt her.

[NYC_SKP]

41. I read it as "women need to know their place". This is a mans' game, women can sell beer, maybe....

But they can't play because they are frail and they can't earn money, good money, as boosters/cheerleaders because it might make the NFL look bad.

Or something like that.

I guess if they work hard in "womanly careers" and save their money, they can buy an NFL team!

But they'd better dress appropriately.

The NFL and their defenders make me ill.

[sarisataka]

50. I am baffled

why people do not see the sexism in the proposal.

Rather than opening opportunities to woman, in coaching, administration (especially executive level), possibly even as players, the argument is to reduce women's role to combat sexism.

Yes cheerleaders are unnecessary fluff bu-t one, women choose to be cheerleaders for various reasons and two, the fluff role is assigned; think outside the box and expand their role.

Also it is well know that the cheerleaders get little or no pay. How about paying them for their work? They have been compared to strippers here (somewhat unfairly IMO) but at least strippers make good money...

[kcr]

55. The problem with your argument

Is it if cheerleaders were going to have that role expanded, don't you think it would have happened by now? The power structures that lead to the existence of cheerleaders in the first place are the problem. I do agree that if the NFL insists on having cheerleaders they should at least pay them decently. The fact that they aren't should be another clue that the Expand Their Role! suggestion isn't going to fly. Strippers actually do make much better money. There's nothing really to defend about the continued existence of cheerleaders in the NFL.

[sarisataka]

81. Would you use that same argument

For women in the business world?

If women were to hold more upper management positions it would have happened by now?

The power structure is the problem; change that.

[kcr]

92. How is that even remotely the same argument?

Are all women in the business world employed as sex symbols for objectification? Is that their prime role?

It's just as creative as the one comparing the NFL to Broadway. I'll give you that.

[sarisataka]

95. You are getting close

The NFL only allows women to be sex objects.

At one time their were no AA quarterbacks, coaches or owners either. The answer was not to get rid of all AA locker room attendants and food vendors...

[kcr]

99. The answer is to let the cheerleaders play football?

I'm not sure they'll be good at it, but okay.

Seriously, again with the huge stretches. Do you think the issue with the NFL and cheerleaders is analogous? Do you think anyone counterarguing would have argued that the solution when AAs were excluded were to get rid of all AAs? I wonder just how deliberate these logical stretches of yours are to miss the point?

[sarisataka]

102. I've known women

With the size and strength to be damn good football players.
I know many men, self included, who do not have the physique to be more than a kicker.

I see the analogy as very comparable. The opening of higher opportunity is not dependent on eliminating low end positions.

Someday cheerleaders may fade away on their own; it wouldn't bother me as the football I watch involves actually kicking the ball. Arbitrarily eliminating cheerleaders will not do anything to open roles for women nor will it change the sexist and overall entitled culture within the NFL.

[kcr]

110. Okay. Do you honestly think the argument is get rid of cheer leaders

instead of pushing for allowing women to play? You're not seeing that it's two different issues, here?

[Lurker Deluxe]

121. Not a soccer fan ...

I opened the wiki page for US Soccer teams, the first one is the Chicago Fire.

They have zero female players.

They seem to have an all female cheer leading squad.

Are they more or less sexist than the NFL?

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

157. A lot of "small," but otherwise talented male players

can't make it in the NFL. Small being, 5'll" and 200 pounds.

Seriously, I'm just amazed that anyone thinks that women could play football. Serena Williams is built like a tank, and she cannot beat the top seeded male players, and tennis isn't even a contact sport!

We are talking about the top players in football. Top male players. Not the top women players against average male players. This isn't that difficult to understand.

Someday, there may be a female kicker who is good enough for the NFL, but I'm not holding my breath while waiting.

[MADem]

101. Coaches? Don't most coaches have at least some experience in playing the game?

I think there are some things that men gravitate to, and some things that women gravitate to, for reasons of both physical suitability and culture. Football is a sport for very large people with a specific body type and that body type/size isn't something we see in most women.

Should we "integrate" everything just because it's (noxious term) "politically correct" to do so?

More to the point, are half-naked women (or men?) needed to persuade people to go to a football game? Why not fire up some marching bands, and acrobats, and use them instead? That would give a lot of musicians and circus performers work. It would make the commercial breaks/half time events in the stadiums more family friendly, too.

[sarisataka]

108. An actual NFL

Football fan could answer the coach question accurately. IMO playing experience is not an absolute requirement.

Are cheerleaders needed- no. Will eliminating them change attitudes and culture in NFL players and organization-no.

I like the band/acrobat idea. I can't stand baseball but go to minor league games just for the "side show"

[MADem]

126. I think playing experience--at some level beyond Pop Warner--is pretty much expected in most

cases. The coach with no playing experience is probably the exception, not the rule.

I think not having near naked women on the sidelines shaking and baking would change the culture--the whole "football hero" with "adoring, simpering acolytes, displaying their approval with sexy dances in unison" thing would become a vestige of the past. Eventually, people would laugh at it--sort of like people laugh at beauty pageants today.

People don't believe/realize this, but many years ago, when "The Miss America Pageant" came on TV, it was a MUST SEE event--everyone tuned in. EVERYONE talked about it the next day. The focus on it was obsessive. And no one thought anything amiss with the parading of women in scanty clothes/swimsuits--the whole "meat market" attitude was not just accepted, it was CELEBRATED. They didn't have to have "brains," they just had to look good. And boy oh boy, was there a pecking order. If they weren't sufficiently shapely, if they didn't have the 1950s/60s "pneumatic" figure, they weren't considered serious candidates, no matter what sort of resume they brought to the fore.

Of course, people don't realize that years ago, it was absolutely "OK" to pay women less than men (Justification--You don't have a family to support, dear).

Years ago, men's jobs and women's jobs were segregated in the newspaper (oh, yes). You could even demand that an applicant be "colored" or "married" or "catholic" or "Hungarian" too--and no I am NOT making this up--check out the samples in this blog, they're eye openers: http://grazhina.blogspot.com/2008/11/from-1920.html

Will the day come when women are playing all positions (not just kicker) in professional football? Maybe. I'll never say never about anything on those lines. I doubt I'll live to see it, though. I think it's more likely that the "football craze" will start to die down. Not straight away--it might take three or five generations--but eventually I think that people hitting each other wearing absurd amounts of padding while allowing their brains to slosh around in their craniums, causing physical injury, will be regarded as a really, really dumbass thing to do -- or watch.

[mythology]

82. Cheerleaders earn crap wages

http://mobile.businessweek.com/articles/2014-09-10/nfl-cheerleaders-battle-teams-for-minimum-wage

There is a lot the NFL could do to better incorporate women. Cheerleading, as it's currently done, isn't one of them.

[NYC_SKP]

87. I just learned that this morning. Cheerleaders+ ~$80/game, Practice Squad players= ~$6,250/game.

Wow, what a sexist and misogynist racket.

NFL Cheerleaders Salary
The Average Salary of NFL Cheerleaders

Being an NFL cheerleader looks like a great job. The girls get paid to look good and dance around, supporting some of the most popular sports teams in America. But just how much they get paid is one of the NFL’s best kept secrets. You would think that teams that generate hundreds of millions of dollars of revenue each year would be able to generously compensate their cheerleading squads. In reality, these girls get paid next to nothing. In fact, they’d be financially better off serving beer at the nearest concessions counter.
Per Game Basis

Incredibly, while NFL players are getting paid thousands (if not tens or hundreds of thousands) of dollars per game, cheerleaders are generally paid about $70 to $90 per game. Now, you’re probably saying, well of course, these are elite athletes we’re talking about. Let’s put this into perspective, shall we? A player on an NFL team’s practice squad makes around $100,000 for the season. These players never set foot on the field during a game. Still, over a 16-game season, they make $6250 per game. Some cheerleaders are paid monthly salaries ranging from $1000 to $1,500 with the higher end of the scale being reserved for those with extensive cheerleading experience.
Yearly Total

After two preseason games and eight regular-season home games, most cheerleaders earn about $500 to $750 per season, depending on which team they cheer for and whether that team plays any additional home games in the playoffs. The New Orleans Saints are paying Drew Brees $40 million this season. Ok, that’s not fair, Brees is the highest-paid player in the league this year. Some more perspective: NFL mascots get paid anywhere between $23,000 and $65,000 per year, and that’s not including benefits or yearly bonuses (which can be substantial if the team wins the Super Bowl). Cheerleaders see nowhere close to this amount of salary, and in most cases have to dress up in even crazier outfits.

http://www.therichest.com/sports/football-sports/nfls-cheerleaders-salary/

The Federal Government should shut this bullshit down.

[The2ndWheel]

117. Only one reason they don't make much money

They're unnecessary. Nobody pays the price for a ticket to watch the cheerleaders. They could get rid of all of the cheerleaders today, and nobody would care.

[kcr]

140. And it's also why all the suggestions to increase their job responsibilities is laughable, too.

I guess they can go ahead and try, then. The NFL would just as soon get rid of them.

[Fred Sanders]

9. If the had male cheerleaders, so as to inspire the female crowd.

Sexism sells suds and buds, so that is never gong to happen.

[Atman]

22. Boxing has bikini-clad women in high heels announcing the next round.

Most major sports have cheerleaders. Baseball and hockey have, well...never mind. Just sayin'...It is a cultural thing, for better or for worse. I tend to think worse, but what the hell do I know? I've been a naturist for so long that a woman in a skimpy spandex halter top doesn't really set off my buzzers anymore.

[Cleita]

132. If they had that shirtless guy in a kilt, whose the lead in the TV

series "Outlander" as a cheerleader even I would watch football.

[leftynyc]

10. +1000

My beloved Giants never has had cheerleaders and they still fill up the stadium every single game. The NY knicks didn't have them either until the scummy Pat Riley took over.

[jwirr]

11. A lot of other sports also use scantily dressed women to enhance their programs. I remember the

reputation that went along with being a cheerleader in high school. It was terrible and untrue. I think this should begin there and follow through to the professional teams as well. This does not teach women anything that they need to succeed in life. I agree get rid of them.

[Johonny]

19. Several teams do not have them so clearly they aren't essential to the game

I always respected the Giants owners for refusing to have them.

[PasadenaTrudy]

20. I agree with you

And for what it's worth, I don't see victim blaming here

[theHandpuppet]

25. Think you might find this article of interest

BTW, I'd also be interested to know just how much the people who run the concessions make. Does anyone know?

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2014/09/10/ray-rice-domestic-violence-cheerleaders/
Want to Avoid Another Ray Rice? Pay NFL Cheerleaders a Fair Wage
September 10, 2014
By Wendy Widom

CHICAGO (CBS) — This season, in every roaring football stadium around the United States, athletes will be thinking about Ray Rice and how he knocked his then-fiancé (now wife), Janay Palmer, unconscious in an Atlantic City hotel elevator. The difference is that the athletes in the center of the field, the football players, will be making millions (or close to millions) of dollars. The athletes who stay mostly on the sidelines, the NFL cheerleaders, will do so as they earn less than minimum wage.

Cheerleading is a job. As part of this job, NFL cheerleaders endure grueling workouts, time-consuming rehearsals, demanding game-time performances, expensive personal maintenance visits and extensive travel. Many starve themselves to fit into society’s alarming standard of skinny and submit themselves to demeaning requirements such as how to manage their pubic hair. In 2013, Ray Rice’s former team, the Baltimore Ravens, benched a woman who had a “rough year” because she gained 1.8 pounds. 1.8 pounds.

Our society seems to have a massive blind spot when it comes to appropriate compensation for NFL cheerleaders. In a world where we want clear distinctions between right and wrong, cheerleaders challenge our perceptions of what women, especially women who dress up in skimpy outfits, deserve. Popular arguments against giving these athletes a fair wage include: it’s their hobby, it’s their choice to cheer, they are getting exposure, if they don’t like it someone else will happily take their place, and their role isn’t that critical anyway.

The response to these arguments should be disgust and bewilderment. This weekend, the New York Times published a story about a 13-year-old girl slaving away in a tobacco field in order to feed her family and advance in life. Let’s break it down. The girl is getting ‘exposure’ by building a work history showing how industrious and reliable she is. If she leaves, sadly, many others would be eager to take her place. You could even argue that it’s her choice....

[JNelson6563]

47. Well said.

[NYC_SKP]

29. Why is it that ONLY MEN are allowed to become millionairre players? WTF?

We have female soldiers and pilots and CEOs.

Almost everywhere women are making headway, but not in the NFL.

Why are only men allowed to have multi-million dollar contracts.

If they don't want to open it up, I say we should shut them the fuck down.

[ProfessorGAC]

42. You Are, Of Course, Using Hyperbole.

Right?

[NYC_SKP]

44. No. Women should be allowed to become players. Women are tough and fast.

Like men, they come in all sizes.

Why do you think they should not be allowed to play?

Separate but equal, is that the idea here?

[Lurker Deluxe]

59. If you are serious

It would be the same reason men and women do not compete head to head in most sports.

Tennis? No chance ... and it has been proven more than once. Difference there is while embarrassing, no one gets hurt.

Boxing? MMA? Soccer? Hockey?

Don't even bring in the NFL, no one wants to see it. First though ... I guess if a woman made it through the combine and had the stats I imagine she might get a shot. Of coarse there is the other option, four years of college ball with success and a draft spot.

Well women are certainly strong, tough, and fast they simply can not compete against TOP male athletes.

I imagine you already know that though, but what the hell ... it's friday.

[cleanhippie]

72. Skip seems to be playing a game here.

And I think that game is taunting others into posting something she can alert on as sexist.

Her arguments are not fact or reality-based, and as such, should be ignored.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

90. Is it sexist to suggest that just about any woman if she collided with guy would get seriously hurt?

[cleanhippie]

106. It would be if we were talking about all women and all men.

But we're not. We're talking about elite athletes trained to withstand maximum violence and punishment as part of the game. Any woman that is able to get on an NFL team and compete at that level has my full support.

And to add some perspective here, there are very few men who can be on that field. Most men cannot compete at that level. This is about athleticism, not gender.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

109. "Any woman that is able to get on an NFL team and compete at that level has my full support."

Sadly they don't exit. Physiological differences are immutable.

[Starry Messenger]

171. FYI, Skip is a man.

[cleanhippie]

177. My bad.

Doesn't change a thing though.

[NYC_SKP]

127. I read that they are allowed to try out

Best news I've read all day.

Well, that and this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025526259

[ProfessorGAC]

124. Hardly What I Said and You Know It

Ever watch the Olypmics track and field? Spritners and hurdlers? Bigger, heavier bodies going faster. And that is an equal opportunity situation. But there has never been a woman who was as fast as the world class sprinters even though they're moving less mass.

You don't think a BIG woman at 6'2" and 210 pounds, in fantastic athletic condition, is not disadvantaged if the opponent is 6"5" and weighs 290?

No matter how much anybody wants a level playing field, we still have to adhere to the laws of physics.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

159. FREE MARKET

People buy tickets to see the best players play. It's not that difficult to understand.

And, of course, it's not really a "free market" at all. More like a monopoly. hehe

But the reasoning why women don't play still stands.

[NYC_SKP]

166. I'd pay good money to watch cheerleaders play football.

Male or female, or co-ed. Play Ball!

After all, it's not like male players aren't out there in skin tight gear!

Am I lyin'?



Some players look better than others!

[lumberjack_jeff]

197. Ask Lauren Silberman.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000146837/article/lauren-silberman-stages-pointless-sideshow-at-regional-combine

Women are allowed to compete in the NFL.

[NYC_SKP]

198. Token effort and totally trashed n the NFL videos. nt

[ProfessorGAC]

30. Bears Got Rid of Their Troupe in The mid-80's

They aren't missed. Completely unnecessary.

[alarimer]

51. The real problem with the cheerleaders is the NFL's sweatshop work conditions for them.

The league makes billions, yet most cheerleaders make minimum wage at best, have horrendous working demands placed upon them and are basically exploited in order to titillate.

They need a union.

[upaloopa]

54. Well when do you think we can get the burkas

out of storage.
I think some people take this way too far.

[NYC_SKP]

93. The boys don't want their silly game to suffer. So, no girls allowed!

The OP is concerned about the image of the NFL.

Never mind equity, or having ignored the violent behavior of their players.

Must protect image, can't let anything harm the NFL!

Really disgusting POV.

[PeaceNikki]

58. They are not employed by or required by the NFL, but the team. Many teams don't have them at all.

The Packers, for example, usually bring in local college dance troops.

I think you're focusing on the absolute wrong thing.

[hughee99]

60. "Ladies, to fix the perception that the NFL has no respect for women, we're firing you all,

now get the fuck out."

[MADem]

161. Firing? They don't pay them diddly--they'll have more time to get real jobs that don't

work out to less than five bucks an hour, when you add in travel, practice, and "beauty regimens."

Those are exploited workers, playing a crap shoot game that they "might" make a connection to be a spokesmodel, or get hired because of their associations with a team, or whatever.

[hughee99]

168. I'm not suggeting they're treated well,

but the fact that it's hard work for almost no pay would suggest that they WANT to be there, if only for the opportunities they MIGHT get out of it.

Whether you're exploited or not, getting fired from a job you want to have is still getting fired.

[MADem]

170. That's like saying that the exploited workers in the farm fields who worked for a couple of dollars

an hour, who had no recourse because if they quit some other undocumented worker would just take their place, "wanted" to be there. They didn't WANT to be there--they were doing the best with what they had, looking for an opportunity, looking for a way UP.

I am stunned at the One Percenter attitude--it doesn't matter if the job presents the possibility of maybe a better opportunity--you don't pay people less than minimum wage unless you're some kind of asshole. And that IS what the NFL is doing.

Again, The Laborer Is Worthy of His (or Her) Hire.

The fact that you think it is "OK" to exploit people because "they WANT to be there" is bullshit.

Those women are athletes--athletes who have to wear really stupid costumes that are a bit objectifying, but athletes nonetheless--and they deserve a fair wage AND benefits for the talents they bring to the entire "game experience."

But this whole "Rice Drama" isn't about the cheerleaders. The NFL has done a good job of flipping the script. It's about an organization that knew about the conduct of their player, knew exactly what he did in that elevator (because he TOLD them), they facilitated his guilty plea and diversion treatment, and then, a half year later, when THEY get caught for tolerating all that, they throw the guy they tolerated under the bus, and point at him and the cheerleaders. ANYTHING to get the stink off THEM.

This really isn't about Rice--it hasn't been since the NFL said "Go and sin no more." It's about the NFL leadership--or lack of same. Rice is just the latest in a string of players who have been guilty of criminal misconduct. He's by no means the first.

[hughee99]

174. You've suggested the cheerleaders would have more time to get real jobs

so, even in your opinion, they do have recourse. It's not the same.

Should they get paid more? Absolutely. NOWHERE did I suggest otherwise, but do you think any are stuck in that job with no other means of employment? Of the few that I've met, most do have other jobs already.

[MADem]

184. No--you're not GETTING IT. If you employ a person, pay them a FAIR WAGE. Give them benefits.

That's what "A laborer is worthy of his hire" means. It's not "Oh well, they already have other jobs so they don't "need" this one..." How do YOU know what they "need?" They could be supporting an out of work relative or aging parents. A fair wage is -- at the least -- minimum wage. And they aren't getting that.

I'm absolutely astounded at your concept of "recourse." Gee, there are plenty who will take that job at shit wages, just for the "opportunity"....don't let the door hit ya where the good lord etc. etc.

That's what the farm owners said to the farm workers ... before Cesar Chavez showed up. You remember him, don't you? They put his face on a stamp.



Can't believe you side with the one percent on this issue. That IS what you are doing.

Flat out wrong.

[hughee99]

185. Please show me where I said I thought they shouldn't get a fair wage?

I said that they have a job that they want DESPITE the poor pay, and if you fire them, while YOU might think you're doing them a favor, I bet THEY won't feel that way.

[MADem]

191. Your comments about the "recourse" available to them is your "on the other hand."

It's not a question of doing ANYONE "a favor." Getting appropriate pay for work performed is not "a favor." It's the law of the land, and these billionaire owners are paying these cheerleaders less than minimum wage, when one adds up the preparation, travel, rehearsal, etc. It's outrageous. It's mind-blowing that they could be so frigging CHEAP, too.

But hey, they have "recourse" and that "recourse" is "Quit if you don't like it," and there are plenty more to be exploited where those ones came from! And because they just MIGHT make a connection that offers a better job down the line, don't worry about 'em... they'll tolerate getting paid less than the guy who picks your tomatoes, who can be exploited because he doesn't have papers.

[hughee99]

192. You were the one that compared them to undocumented farm workers,

who often have NO other job options available to them. I haven't suggested once, despite your assertions, that they shouldn't get paid more, or that they don't deserve to get paid more.

I did suggest, however that the fact that they continue to be cheerleaders despite the awful pay suggests that this is a job they want, not a job they're stuck in (like the farm workers) since any one of these cheerleaders could leave the stadium they work in, go to the nearest restaurant, and make 5 times as much waiting tables or tending bar. If it were just about the money (like, you suggested, they had to care for an out of work or sick relative) they could easily make more. I'm NOT making an argument that they shouldn't be paid more, but using it as evidence that they're not "stuck" in this job. When you have better job options (and ALL of them do), you're not "stuck".

Again, I'll say this one more time, they SHOULD get paid more, the OP suggested they should all be fired. Do you believe the solution to the NFL's image problem really firing women who WANT to work as cheerleaders? I don't.

[MADem]

193. And these women don't either--if they're spending forty hours a week trying to

make those connections to get that corporate spokesmodel job, they aren't going to be holding down a full-time job of any consequence. They don't "want" that shitty, under-pay. They want the opportunity. They shouldn't have to tolerate unfair wages just to get that opportunity--that is the issue you aren't grasping. It's not "OK" to underpay these women. Even if they want the opportunity. And to keep doubling down and saying it's their "choice" is absurd. If you want a job modeling, you're not going to find it in some of these NFL towns--you have to go to NYC or LA. How are you going to afford that "waitressing" or "bartending?" Particularly when those waitressing/bartending jobs are also highly competitive?

The courts recently ruled on internships during college 'work study' periods--it's NOT OK to not pay those kids--even if they "want" the opportunity to make those connections to get a better job upon graduating.

What you've suggested is an "Oh, well" attitude. That's just not acceptable. Minimum wage is the law of the doggone land.

And "If they don't like it, they can waitress or bartend" is precisely the excuse-making that is unacceptable here. That's like telling that undocumented farm hand "If you don't like it, go hang out at Home Depot, or go home to your own country and see how much you can make there." In other words, "Don't threaten ME--I'm the only game in town. I don't HAVE to pay you minimum wage."

I think the solution to the problem is to pay them a living wage and make their routines a bit more than just jiggle and bounce--no "Oh well" about it. Or dump the program entirely and go to acrobats at half time, or a marching band with dancing. It's not like those bums can't afford it.

[hughee99]

194. No dice. If your going to continue to base

Your disagreement with me in something that I not only didn't say, but I've explicitly said the opposite of more than three times, I'm done. You can go argue with yourself. You're already assigning opinions and attitudes to me that aren't mine, what do you need me for.

[MADem]

196. Whatever. nt

[treestar]

62. good idea

At least the NFL's version. College squads with men are different.

But that would show good faith on the NFL's part.

[BillZBubb]

68. Do you believe the attire of college female cheerleaders is not more "sexy" than the

fewer in number male cheerleaders?

[MADem]

163. The men's costumes look like something Wally Cleaver would wear to the sock hop.

Maybe if they put the guys in hot pants with their cheeks hanging out and a crop top, it would level that silly ol' playing field...

[treestar]

190. I don't know

I don't watch a lot of college football.

When I was in college, the cheerleader uniforms weren't sexy. They were more or less athletic-looking.

[BillZBubb]

66. Should we outlaw cheerleading in high schools as well?

Does having them in high school add to the process of objectifying women? High school cheerleaders are predominantly female. Male cheerleaders are usually dressed in long pants, female cheerleaders in short skirts. That's bad right?

[PoutrageFatigue]

71. Yes. Absolutely.

n/t

[Blue_Adept]

97. Well, that would disappoint my daughter

She's been looking forward to doing cheerleading since she was a little girl. Not that she was ever really exposed to it as we're not a sports household, but what she learned of it made her want to do it.

[NYC_SKP]

103. Mustn't let young women tarnish the image of the NFL, this is about preserving and protecting them!

I can't believe I'm reading an OP that's concerned about the NFL image and suggests ways to fix it instead of taking them to task for their enabling of domestic violence.

If they really want to improve their image, they will come out strongly against domestic violence, all violence, and institute rules and consequences for their players' behaviors on and off the field.

It's all about the $$$$.

[mr blur]

116. What ARE you talking about?

Having completely missed the point of the OP you're now digging yourself deeper into incomprehension.

[NYC_SKP]

125. "What can the NFL do immediately to improve their image? Get rid of cheerleaders..."

That is the subject line of the OP.

What a backward idea, their image???

First, it would only backfire and piss off as many people as it would please.

But, more importantly, it would do NOTHING to discourage the behavior of their players.

They should first own up to their complicity, and then create guidelines and expectations of their players, with clear consequences.

Now THAT would help their image.

[PoutrageFatigue]

148. Try reading the WHOLE post....

...you know...CONTEXT and all that....

This post is not about the players, or the violence inherent in the sport itself, but about the league sending the wrong message to MEN....

Re-read the first sentence. It specifically references a comment made by James Brown on the CBS broadcast of the game last night. THAT is what this post is about and it has nothing to do with your wildly inaccurate accusations.

If the NFL is worried about its image, then the least it could do is stop objectifying women, and using women, and femininity as a slur like "you throw like a girl", or "you're a p*ssy"...But sure, my suggestion that the quickest, most obvious way that the NFL could show that is was serious about re-configuring it's attitude toward women is to get rid of the sexbots on the sideline...

But yeah, I'm actually victim-blaming....

[NYC_SKP]

149. You should have included this Philly dot com story in the OP:

You aren't the first to suggest the idea, or maybe you saw the article yourself.

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/eagles/20140912_NFL_sends_mixed_message_on_women.html

To be sure, all of those things like name-calling are bad, but cheerleading is a competitive sport in K-12 school, a chance for girls to compete and excel and you and others are seeking to defeat it.

Unless you're a woman, I would leave it to individual women to decide if they want that job or not, and not remove the option for the sake of image.

As it turns out, our culture and the NFL as a reflection of it are both filled with woman hate.

Removing women because it mars the image of the male-dominated NFL is, to a small degree, victim blaming.

Not you, just your suggestion.

[wryter2000]

183. I don't read the OP as real concern for the NFL

More like pointing out the hypocrisy of claiming to value women while objectifying them on the field.

[Scout]

119. if they ever had sexy boys cheering for the GIRLS teams that would be nice...

but since that won't ever happen, yes, get rid of it.

the girls can participate in gymnastics or other sports, rather than sucking up to the boys teams and treating them like little gods.

[EX500rider]

167. High school cheerleading is nothing like the NFL version..

It's a hard and dangerous sport.

&list=PL95B79F4A82D4D7B8

[KamaAina]

67. I'd settle for them paying the cheerleaders an adequate wage

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024383196

[NYC_SKP]

80. That's the truth! But pretty typical in that sport, that mindset, and our sexist society.

I did not know how underpaid they are.

[PDJane]

84. Thank you. That was going to be my comment, too.

Give the cheerleaders a decent wage, give them some time off and pay them for appearances, and give them a little respect. That would go a long way to improving the situation.

Then, make sure that men who abuse their girlfriends/fiancées/wives are charged and convicted, and toss them out of the league.

[Sivafae]

75. I think that is a "baby with the bathwater" suggestion

I understand the issue of cheerleaders being seen as eye-candy, however, there is a lot of athleticism that goes into being a cheerleader. Why can't we see that on the field? And why can't the cheerleaders be paid richly for all the hard work they have put into training that athleticism?

[kcr]

111. NFL pro cheerleading has nothing to do with athleticism

If the argument is to make it more like the cheerleading you see in high school and college, that's a valid one, but the NFL would probably rather do away with it than go that route, because they only want the cheerleaders for eye candy. It's not about athletics because it isn't supposed to be about that.

[Iggo]

86. That ain't sacrilegious. It's sexist and it's misogynist. But it ain't sacrilegious.

[dilby]

91. There are a lot of teams who already don't have Cheerleaders.

My Browns don't have them but they are getting them and new team uniforms in 2015 both of which are a complete sacrilege to the Browns history. I would support the ban of cheerleaders to prevent this abomination from touching the Holy ground my Browns play on.

On the other hand let's face it the Browns suck and bad, hell they have not had a winning season since Lyndon Johnson was President. Maybe they need the new uniforms and cheerleaders.

[MADem]

94. Noooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!

Who will tell the crowd how and when to cheer for their team? They surely won't be able to figure it out on their OWN!!!

_{(Have to put one of these in, because way too many people have no sense of irony or amusement: )}

Maybe they should work on their "cheerleader diversity" efforts, though.

I think these folks are looking for work....

?1349215007

[Oktober]

98. Gads....

[DemocratSinceBirth]

107. I'll settle for men not battering women and...

I'll settle for men not battering women and let women decide what to do with their bodies.

[MisterP]

113. cheerleaders are mute?

[LadyHawkAZ]

114. Er. Yeah. OK.

Let's ignore the highly competitive, violent game on the field, played by vastly overpaid men who are venerated like godlings until their egos require aircraft cables to prevent them floating away. Let's ignore all that and focus on the cheerleaders. Because women dressing too sexy where men can see them is the real problem.

Ugh. Stop. Just stop.

[PoutrageFatigue]

115. Good grief...

"Because women dressing too sexy where men can see them is the real problem" - If that is what you got from the OP then you totally, utterly, and completely missed the point...

[LadyHawkAZ]

118. No. No, I think I got the point just fine

I just didn't agree with the point, any more than I did the last few dozen times it's been posted on this site.

If you want to fix the problem, address the problem.

[PoutrageFatigue]

120. Nope, you missed the point. Completely.

n/t

[Logical]

145. Maybe your post is at fault hor them missing the point! Nt

[deaniac21]

123. There will never be a

Steeler Cheerleader.

[Lurker Deluxe]

128. 'cept they were the first

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittsburgh_Steelerettes

[MineralMan]

133. I'm all for cheerleaders:

[Egnever]

134. Haha this thread illustrates perfectly why DU is a mess.

The idea that cheerleaders are now victims by being removed when just a week or two ago they were victims for being exploited is just so over the top Bat shit crazy you have to laugh.

A perfect example if I have ever seen one that there is no way to do the right thing according to many of these posters. It is all about finding a way to make people into victims.

Having said that removing cheerleaders is a bad idea IMHO I love them. Would love to see them paid better but beyond that I would be sorry to see them removed from any sport. I have seen games where the best thing in them were the cheerleaders.

[Cleita]

138. Yes.

[Curmudgeoness]

141. I have no idea why people are piling on this OP.

The OP is in SUPPORT of women, and critical of the objectification of women as sexy cheerleaders in the NFL. People who are jumping all over this seem to just want to be offended, because there is nothing here to offend....unless you want to defend men using women as sex objects.

[hughee99]

142. I think people have an issue with this because it's not the same issue.

The issue is that the NFL is willing to turn a blind eye to the behavior of it's players with respect to violence against women, and a suggested remedy to this perception among the public is to fire the cheerleaders?

Maybe they should get rid of the cheerleaders, but I don't think you're going to find many people who believe that doing THIS will help their image very much if they're not going to take domestic violence far more seriously. The objectification of women on the field (or right next to the field) might be a symptom of the same problem, but the objectification of women and violence against women isn't really the same thing.

[Curmudgeoness]

180. I see how you can read it that way, but I didn't.

I don't think that the OP condoned the blind eye to violence against women. I think that the point was that there has to be respect shown to women at all levels, including not objectifying them on the sidelines, if the mentality is ever going to change. But that is just how I read it, and reading through the comments, and the OP writer's answers, I do think this is how it was meant.

It seems that men who want to stand with women just can't win.

[badtoworse]

147. Sorry, but that's a crock

Last edited Fri Sep 12, 2014, 05:18 PM - Edit history (1)

Cheer leading has been part of sports for decades and it starts in high school. The cheer leaders themselves look at it as participating in the competition. Most people have the intelligence to recognize that and not make some kind of female self image crisis out of it.

By the way, I've actually spoken with a few of the Jets cheerleaders (The Flight Crew). They told me they have a great time (both on and off the field) and love being part of the game.

[GoCubsGo]

150. Awwwwww!!! Come on!

People pay all that money for a ticket. Shouldn't it come with a T & A show? The only thing missing is the topless hunky men for the female fans to gawk at.



--except for the hunky men part. Fair is fair, if you're going to insist on having this kind of thing.

[JoePhilly]

154. Can't we just make them wear burkas??

[edbermac]

162. Rah rah rah!

[eShirl]

160. What would professional team sports be without objectification of women on the side?

[Rex]

164. Or maybe make it a terminable offense if you punch and knockout your wife/girlfriend?

You know...not cover it up and try to buy the media? Fire and prosecute? Seriously, that would help with their 'image'.

[exboyfil]

165. A better suggestion

$500M ($50M/yr for ten years) to domestic abuse shelters, transition funds, education, and legal services. That is about what Goodell makes in a year.

[LittleBlue]

169. I've got a better idea. How about those who don't like the NFL

stop watching the NFL. And those who don't watch the NFL can stop making lists of demands about what they want the NFL to do.

This is entertainment, not a social engineering project. Cheerleaders should not lose their jobs just because some random person is offended. What if some random person came to your workplace and told your bosses to eliminate your position? All because your existence is deemed offensive.

I find it interresting that some English soccer clubs, contrary to all tradition, are adopting cheerleaders into the game. Long may it continue.

My advice is to stop being overly sensitive. Cheerleaders exist at every level in football and they aren't going anywhere because fans like them.

[JEB]

182. They could pay the cheerleaders a better salary.

[WinkyDink]

186. Just came here to post this! Circus elephants get more peanuts!

[Doctor_J]

187. firing all of the cheerleaders would improve their image?

[Lancero]

188. A better idea would be to actually *pay* them

At least minimum wage, since they currently don't make even that.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/30/cheerleaders-make-minimum-wage-nfl-labor-rights

Frankly, I'd think the NFL deciding to pay their cheerleaders a living wage would do more for women's equality then the NFL deciding to kick them out.

[ScreamingMeemie]

195. You DO realize some teams don't have them...right?

The Packers use squads (typically dressed for bitter temps) from local colleges. When I was in high school, the Lions used to invite local high school squads to cheer in each corner of the field...

No, it's not the cheerleaders. It is the arrogance of the men who run the NFL that has caused this. Let's get rid of them.