The Isolationist Left Needs to Get Real. And Fast.

[MannyGoldstein]

You people have led sheltered and pampered lives, but the real world is different.

Here's what you need to understand: Iraq al Qaeda the Taliban Iraq again Libya Syria ISIS are the worst people ever on Earth, an incredible threat to humanity.

It is our responsibility to spend a lot of money and risk many American lives to deal with this incredible threat. Fortunately, it will not cost much, nor risk American lives.

We have never faced a threat like this before. If we step up and stop them now, we'll never have to face a threat like this again.

Regards,

Third-Way Manny

[MineralMan]

1. Just speak from your normal perspective, please, Manny.

Please. You're blowing it again.

[MannyGoldstein]

9. Sorry. nt

[Rex]

47. Wow your Biggest Fan says you are blowing it Manny!

Way to go!

[MannyGoldstein]

163. Tough love.

I certainly need it.

[99Forever]

114. You heard him Manny...

... keep off his lawn.

[randys1]

128. Are you under 40 yrs of age? I think that is the max for signing up or is it older?

[Scuba]

180. Blowing it? Hardly. In fact, he's nailed it again.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

2. I guess when all you have is a crayon the whole world looks like a cartoon/NT

[FrodosPet]

13. Check out what this pro-war Third Way cheerleader had to say

At least friends of Ron and Rand Paul, like Dennis Kuchnich, are willing to stay out of it.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

19. "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of a small mind."

Of course there are instances where American intervention was mistaken if not tragic. I agree with the OP on that. That doesn't mean I don't get to choose whether or not this or that American intervention has merit.

[WilliamPitt]

35. "little minds"

Have some respect for Mr. Emerson, please.

"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines."

[TheSarcastinator]

96. quoting Emerson in order to cheer for war

Not kewl.

[Billy Budd]

116. Americans are the ultimate innocents

"We Americans are the ultimate innocents. We are forever desperate to believe that this time the government is telling us the truth."

[L0oniX]

133. Battered citizen cycle of abuse.

[littlemissmartypants]

179. Bingo . nt

[Laelth]

3. Manny, in the grand scheme of things, you and I are allies.

I hope you know and recognize that. I do.

But the President's current campaign against IS is not a "third way" position. From my perspective, it seems quite prudent and necessary. I invite you to consider my argument on this subject HERE. In fact, I'd be honored if you responded in that thread.

Cheers!

-Laelth

[leftstreet]

4. Energy - you advocate force over treaties. Whatever n/t

[Laelth]

8. How could we make a treaty with IS?

The have no capital, no formal government, no recognized borders, no embassies ...

I don't think a treaty can fix this problem. The Kurds are real, however, and they have broken Russia's monopoly on natural gas in Western Europe by shipping energy resources from Northern Iraq to the Mediterranean through Turkey. What we're doing is defending the Kurds, and our allies in Western Europe are benefiting from that.


War is bad, certainly, but our allies depend upon us, and we are defending them and their interests. Our own interests are tied up with theirs because our economies are interconnected.



-Laelth

[leftstreet]

11. So now IS controls BP, Exxon, Gazprom stocks? n/t

[Laelth]

27. Sorry. I am not following you, here.

-Laelth

[leftstreet]

70. Let Energy Corporations raise their own armies

Buy their own tanks, drones, explosives, uniforms, build their own bases

If they don't want to form alliances with any/all groups or individuals that stand in the way of their profits, let them them reinvest those profits.

Leave the working classes the fuck out of it

[Jack Rabbit]

72. I'd rather not

Let's see if they don't do it. They can always call on Blackwater Xe Services Academi whatever Erik Prince is calling his gang of thugs this week.

[JustAnotherGen]

177. Frontier Services Group

http://www.fsgroup.com/


And while we will be fighting ISIS - China (Hong Kong Based) has enlisted Prince to assist them in stripping Africa of its resources.

But he was on CBN a few weeks ago touting the ISIS is evil line.

He will be in Washington DC next week honoring 40 under 40 Conservatives.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

74. Wouldn't the working class be in worse shape if energy supplies are interrupted ?

If they can't make ends meet now how will they make ends meet if the costs of everything goes up since everything is based on access to energy?

[leftstreet]

95. Why would supplies be 'interrupted?'

BP, Exxon, Gazprom, Rozneft, etc want to SELL their shit to make PROFITS

I was only suggesting they not use the commons to secure their ability to make those profits

[Demeter]

80. No Going to War for Tax Scofflaws!

Couldn't agree more!

[BobbyBoring]

82. They already have

Its the US armed forces and the government that sends them to war.

[BobbyBoring]

88. They already have

It's the US armed forces and the government that sends them to war. And they didn't raise them, they bought them.

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

152. Ah yes, the coming corporate wars.

What could go wrong.

[TBF]

15. War is bad unless it is good ...

[Laelth]

26. Sadly, yes. That's about the size of it.

Before getting overly critical, however, I'd be honored if you would read my analysis of this latest foreign relations move by the President HERE.

Thanks.

-Laelth

[TBF]

36. I've read it and I give you points

For honesty. That's more than I can say for the blind hero worshipers on this board.

I'm too old to buy in - I've seen this movie before.

[Laelth]

39. Fair enough.

Thanks for reading my analysis.



-Laelth

[Scootaloo]

66. Untrue on a few counts...

The have no capital

They do, actually - Rakkah.

no formal government

The head of the Islamic State is their Caliph, that al-Baghdadi guy. They've set up a more or less functional government, everything from finance ministers to local judges. They collect taxes (or, in their parlance, zakat and jizya, depending on who it's being collected from), maintain a standard of weights and measures in commerce, all sort of shit like that.

no recognized borders

Yeah well, one of our allies in the region has already shown that fluid borders are no impediment to recognition by the United States.

no embassies

Most nascent states don't.

Now mind, I'm not backing the idea of a treaty with 'em - But IS really is about as close to a leginimate, functioning state as you can get under the circumstances. Really all that's missing is international recognition - this will likely remain missing, of course, as even IS' backers in the gulf states aren't going to stick their necks out for it.

[amandabeech]

143. The Kurds have been shipping oil, not natural gas, through a pipeline

from Kirkuk to Ceyhan in Turkey for many years.

The pipeline was unusable during the Bush II Iraq adventure, but is back in use now.

There's not that much oil being pumped in northern Iraq. The big oil fields are in the south.

And oil and natural gas are not fungible for most uses.

[MannyGoldstein]

51. If we need to use our military to protect energy resources

Then we need to nationalize those resources.

More important, we need to move to renewable resources, and fast. Which will only happen if we clean out D.C.

[Laelth]

57. Hmm ...

It would be difficult for us to nationalize oil and natural gas resources in Northern Iraq (i.e. Kurdistan). Those are the resources I am talking about.

-Laelth

[MannyGoldstein]

62. Right, but where does that oil and gas go?

To private industries who sell it to us at a mighty profit.

Private entities shouldn't profit from our military actions. It's not only inherently wrong, it set up some terrible incentives.

[Laelth]

65. I am a fan of Smedley Butler.

I concede that war is a racket. That said, Japan, the U.K., France, Germany, and a host of other countries rely upon us to insure that energy flows from the Middle East. In exchange, they agree to trade energy in USD, and that makes us rich.

For better or for worse, it appears to me, we must defend our allies' energy interests ... and that's what the President is committed to doing.



-Laelth

[Half-Century Man]

91. Allies' energy interests?

As the countries you list are going renewable as fast as they can, in fact most of the world is going renewable or non-fossil fuel at top speed. We (USA) are one of an ever shrinking minority of fossil fuel fanatic nations, and that fact is because the fossil fuel industry lobbies their very rich asses off to keep it that way.
And causes the invasions of other countries to gain controlling influence of their fossil fuel resources and artificially inflate the price of fuel commodities.

[nashville_brook]

112. [phone]

[leftstreet]

135. +1

[msanthrope]

63. 1) Why are you interested in nationalizing what is the Kurds, and 2) when you say "clean out D.C."

two months before an election, what are you suggesting?

[Generic Other]

75. Exactly how King George acted after the French and Indian War

Billed those who stood to gain the most from the "protection" of their interests -- the colonies. Difference is that since corporations are people in our country today, they can't argue they have no representation. They are fully represented. And should do exactly as you say. Underwrite the costs, provide the manpower to wage this war or be nationalized to pay the bill.

[Kablooie]

185. At first I thought you wrote, "you and I are Ailes." - sheesh.

[rug]

5. Well done!

But you did leave out, Russia, China, Cuba, Viet Cong (What? The label on my shirt says Made in Vietnam, WTF!), Khmer Rouge, and the Sandinistas. Oh, and Grenada.

[MisterP]

41. Grenada? that living nightmare? that Red Triangle!?

"It was a Soviet-Cuban colony, being readied as a major military bastion to export terror and undermine democracy. We got there just in time"
they even made a comic book! http://www.ep.tc/grenada/
http://www.reagan.utexas.edu/archives/speeches/1983/102783b.htm

[tazkcmo]

76. I amolst went there when I was serving

I feared the dentist more.

[Oilwellian]

107. LOL n/t

[rug]

125. We are lucky that we as a nation survived that threat.

[MisterP]

127. what intrigues me is how *little* the script has changed, even as the actors were rotated in

and out--British, then French, then Masons, then Irish, French, Asian, Jewish, Russian, Mexican, Somali

a century ago it was the Chinese who were the girl-mutilating threats to our res publica: "To rule the World, is a dogma, a creed, a holy tradition of China" until "the Imperial Dragon of China already floated from the dome of the Capitol"

so the real task is to be against the *next* war: I predict it'll be the Gabonese

[rug]

129. No, it's the same arguments over and over again, disguised by different flags.

The only solace I can take is that there are so few cogent arguments for war. We really have to articulate the many arguments against it.

[MisterP]

131. "everything I need to know about the Senegalese I learned 7-1-09! NEVAR FORGET!"

[rug]

132. I won't believe any of them unless they're wearing blue paint.

[MisterP]

136. ayup--in Belfast the English shot 30 of them in the back; in Edinburgh the English found oil for 'em

and they saw a movie by an Australian Nazi sedevacantist

(it helps to remember that all Europe's nobility at that time were helpless fashion plates--even a Scots baron would've had handy access to rosewater by the cistern-full)

[christx30]

147. I don't know...

the Swiss have been looking awefully shifty lately.

[geek tragedy]

6. Because of course the situation is so simplie that one must either

be a chest-thumping jingo or a hand-wringing pacifist. No room for nuance, nope.

It's a very complex situation--factually and ethically--and it does no one any good to pretend it's "just like" any other situation.

[JoePhilly]

113. Complexity and nuance mute outrage.

And we can't have that.

I'd like to see the far right who thinks we should invade, debate the far left, who thinks we already have.

[treestar]

118. good observation

I used to read both the Nation and the National Review. They were sort of mirror images of each other.

I learned you could feel a lot better by reading the other side's views. There you learned that your side was already in charge and already accomplishing its most outrageous goals.

[woo me with science]

7. ...

Human pattern recognition is so inconvenient for war profiteers.

[Ed Suspicious]

10. Axis of Evil. Seemed like that should be shoe-horned in as well.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

12. Yep. After our Glorious Triumph over Mighty Grenada, we must "smoke 'em out" again.

Sooner or later...maybe...it depends on how you look at it...if the weather is right...it's possible...we might have a victory over one of the many bogeymen we create.

[TBF]

14. El Salvador, Honduras, Bolivia, Panama, Liberia, Kuwait -

I know I'm still missing a few

[sub.theory]

16. Uh, sure

We've had plenty of issues with ISIS in those countries...

Why are we not capable of more nuance here? The situation with ISIS is extremely complex and these simplistic "it's all a conspiracy by the MIC!" type of arguments aren't helping. What would you do if you were the President? I think he has a very smart, restrained strategy. What would you do?

[TBF]

17. What would I do? Cut the military

by 90%.

Next question?

[sub.theory]

21. And that solves the issue how?

Ok, military funding is cut 90%. How did that resolve the issue with ISIS?

[TBF]

24. ISIS is only an issue if

We are determined to push around other countries in order to get their resources as cheaply as possible. That's the issue.

[sendero]

55. If we hadn't invaded Iraq..

.... there would BE no ISIS. At least not with the power they have accumulated.

That is why I am out of step with DU again, we caused this problem and we need to at least take a shot at helping solve it.

I am FOR the air campaigns. I do not support putting troops on the ground at this time.

[liberal_at_heart]

20. how about only use military force when we are actually being attacked and not get involved in

a regional civil war over power and oil? The whole world was behind us after 9/11. You know why? Because we had actually been attacked. We lost the world's support when we went into Iraq. Why? Because they had not attacked us.

[sub.theory]

23. That condemns too many innocents to death

Not only does waiting until we are attacked condemn innocent Americans to death, but it also abandons God only knows how many innocent people in the ME to ISIS's bloodlust and brutality. That's not something I can accept and it's clearly not something President Obama can accept.

Remember, ISIS has threatened us. They have vowed to drown us in a sea of blood. They have said they will raise the black flag of ISIS over the White House. This rhetoric must be taken seriously. Al-Qaeda did the very same thing with clearly threatening us before 9/11, and it was not taken seriously enough. Why can't be believe what ISIS are saying?

Even setting aside the threat to us, how can we simply abandon thousands of innocent people to rape, murder, and enslavement by ISIS? Ignoring them is not at all likely to make this stop.

[MannyGoldstein]

29. 1,000 children will die from malnutrition today

And tomorrow.

And the next day.

And...

It might be best to think carefully how we interact with our fellow humans on our planet. How we can do the most good.

[sub.theory]

38. "Why not both?"

Why can't we do both? Why can't we ensure that people have enough nutritious food to eat, access to medical care and education, sanitary living conditions, and economic opportunity while also ensuring that murderous death cults like ISIS aren't allowed to go wild? I don't see why these have to exclude one another.

[liberal_at_heart]

43. Leaving out the fact that there will always be more bad guys to kill, there will always be leaders

and rebels killing each other over money, power, and resources, it is never ending, you can't pay for both. It costs trillions to go to war, and it costs trillions to feed and clothe people. We are already having to cut food stamps and education and many other programs to pay for when Bush invaded Iraq. Where will we get the money and when, Oh God, when will we shift our focus to feeding and clothing and educating the poor in this country and around the world?

[GeorgeGist]

94. Much, much, much better at killing!

[FrodosPet]

170. So you support clearing out more rainforests to build farms and roads

Money does not stop starvation.

Food, along with a way to get that food to hungry people, is what stops starvation.

So what is better, and which is worse: clearing more land near the starving people to agriculture, using technology to increase yields, or using more and more energy to transport food from distant places before it spoils and becomes not only useless, but a killer in itself?

[TBF]

30. it wouldn't have started in the first place

If we weren't so hell bent on stealing resources from other countries.

And if ISIS didn't exist we'd find some other way to make sure we had am "interest" to "protect" in the ME. Or we'd create them ourselves as we created Osama bin Laden.

Nothing is particularly nuanced about this - in fact it's not new at all. Eisenhower warned us years ago ....

[Enthusiast]

33. PLUS ONE, a huge bunch!

[sub.theory]

42. We can't change the past, we can only deal with the present

I agree with you 100% that actions of the US, most especially the 2003 Iraq War, have made a significant contribution to the problem of ISIS. The problem is that we are stuck with those consequences. The question is: what do we do about the problem of ISIS now? I believe if we do nothing we endanger our security and condemn untold thousands of innocent people in the ME to death.

There's no silver bullet here. It is a serious mess. I do think, however, that President Obama has chosen the best option from a set of bad options. The one point I do agree with many here, though, is what do we put in the vacuum once ISIS is gone? That's going to be an even harder problem than ISIS itself, particularly in Syria.

[Autumn]

48. If only there were countries in the mid east that could fight the evil that is threatening them.

You know, countries that we have sold weapons to and countries that have armies

[sub.theory]

69. We gave zillions of dollars of equipment to the Iraqis

And they abandoned it all and fled in the face of ISIS. None of the other Arab states have lifted a finger to do anything, and I don't think they will without American leadership. American air support is proving effective and collateral damage minimal so far (have there been any noncombatant deaths? I'm not aware of any). Obama and Kerry are working to put together a coalition that will have several Arab states included. It will be up to them to take the fight to ISIS on the ground, and I wish them every success in it. Without the US, however, none of this happens.

[former9thward]

105. How would we know of any civilian deaths?

There are not reporters there.

[TBF]

52. Then we deal with the present by leaving

We get the hell out. We bring the soldiers home, we downsize, we work on infrastructure. We do not deal with it by doing additional killing.

That's my recommendation - that we not buy into the PNAC craziness.

[sub.theory]

60. Non-action doesn't stop ISIS

Would it be better if we had never gotten involved in the ME? Almost certainly. Do we need to get out? Yep. The fact remains we have a very serious problem in ISIS. Unfortunately, without American air power, the local forces have shown that they are unable to stop ISIS advances, let alone retake territory. We're just not out of this one yet. I don't see how this has anything to do with oil. The 2003 War - yes. But I don't believe for a second that is Obama's reasoning now. He's not Dick Cheney.

[TBF]

79. Tutorial -

Top oil reserves -

1 Venezuela (see: Oil reserves in Venezuela) 297,570[2]
2 Saudi Arabia (see: Oil reserves in Saudi Arabia) 267,910
3 Canada (see: Oil reserves in Canada) 173,625 - 175,200
4 Iran (see: Oil reserves in Iran) 157,300[3]
5 Iraq (see: Oil reserves in Iraq) 140,300[4]
6 Kuwait (see: Oil reserves in Kuwait) 104,000[2]
7 United Arab Emirates (see: Oil reserves in the United Arab Emirates) 97,800
8 Russia (see: Oil reserves in Russia) 80,000[2]
9 Libya (see: Oil reserves in Libya) 48,014
10 Nigeria (see: Oil reserves in Nigeria) 37,200

(source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_proven_oil_reserves)

Oil in Iraq:



ISIS/ISIL/IS (whatever you prefer) in Iraq - many maps but #4 is especially important:

Iraq's enormous oil reserves

Iraq has the fifth largest proven oil reserves of any country, after Venezuela, Saudi Arabia, Canada, and Iran. Production has gone up since the fall of the Hussein regime; in February 2014, 3.6 million barrels were being pumped a day, while in 2002 about 2 million were pumped a day. In 1991, following the Gulf War, a mere 305,000 barrels were pumped a day, gradually picking up as the country recovered from its defeat. The oil is concentrated in the Shia south and Kurdish north, with Sunni regions to the west notably lacking in oil wealth. That makes it all the more significant that the Sunni ISIS rebels have targeted the country's largest oil refinery and have suggested they plan on seizing much of the country's northern oil fields; see the map of "ISIS's 2006 plan for Iraq and Syria" below for more on that.



Much more here to learn more about Iraq and why Cheney wanted control of that country: http://www.vox.com/a/maps-explain-crisis-iraq

BTW, I am sure Obama didn't love inheriting this problem. I happen to think he's not that bad of a guy. He's personable, talented, and really quite bright. His mistake was thinking he could control capitalists and their MIC. Ain't no one tearing it all down easily ...

[Stardust]

109. President Obama has repeatedly said we will defend, among other things, "American interests,"

although, yesterday he began calling them "facilities" instead. "Interests" in the ME means oil.

[NYC Liberal]

64. Because everything bad that happens in the world is the fault of

the U.S. No matter what it is there are some who always argue that the U.S. is at fault.

Hate to break it to you, but groups like ISIS would exist regardless. And to allow countless innocent people to die at their hands is in no way liberal or progressive. It is the same argument made by isolationists while Hitler was stampeding across Europe. "Let's only worry about ourselves and fuck everyone else" is the right-wing's favorite argument.

And even if, as you say, it is our fault, then it's also our problem.

[BlindTiresias]

68. How would ISIS exist?

If there wasn't the vacuum of power we left there when we invaded Iraq?

[TBF]

83. My perspective is different - I see capitalism

as the problem here.

I don't care how much name-calling you want to do - if being a pacifist is not "liberal" or "progressive" then that's fine with me. If preferring socialism or communism as an economic system is wrong in your eyes than you're never going to like what I've got to say.

See post #79 for a tutorial on the oil. If being opposed to stealing resources from other countries seems "right-wing" to you I think you are very confused.

[NYC Liberal]

141. And I see the problem as watching horrific crimes being committed

against countless thousands of people and doing nothing about it.

I see it as no different than seeing one person getting beaten up or robbed or raped on the street and doing nothing. Same thing, only on the scale of tens of thousands instead of just one person.

If standing by and doing nothing while one person is being harmed is wrong (and I absolutely think it is) then doing the same while thousands are is even worse.

[TBF]

146. There are horrific crimes all over the world -

we intervene only when it's a top-10 oil producing country.

Want to talk about Rwanda next?

[NYC Liberal]

150. Sure. Let's talk about Rwanda and our failure to act.

Let's talk about how you want us to refuse to act now just as we did then.

[TBF]

154. What we'll talk about is the refusal to act

unless oil is at stake. It has nothing to do with people living in those countries. At least be honest about what you're after. I doubt 90% of this country could even come up with the words Sunni, Kurd or Shia if pressed.

[NYC Liberal]

157. What I'm after? I'm after stopping countless thousands of people from being slaughtered.

There is no "do nothing" option here. Either we act by trying to stop the murder, or we act by allowing it to happen.

[TBF]

160. Any thoughts about helping out the folks in Detroit -

you know, folks in this country?

Gaza? Any thoughts on stopping that slaughter?

Any thoughts about the trials of Guo Feixiong and Sun Desheng in China?

We are back at the original point. Which people do we help? For you, it's people in proximity to large amounts of oil.

[Demeter]

86. Stay out of other people's civil wars--a general principle to follow

in short: MYOB

[NYC Liberal]

139. Too bad we didn't do that in WWII, right?

Lend-Lease was terrible and FDR was an imperialist warmonger for sticking his nose in "Europe's war" by helping England.

He should have listened to the right-wing isolationists.

[Demeter]

144. Perhaps you are reading impaired?

WWII was NOT a civil war pitting brother against brother, confined to one nation, dealing with matters of internal power struggles. It was a war of aggression and genocide against other nations.

[NYC Liberal]

145. Oh, so if the perpetrators are murdering their own people

we leave them alone. So they just have to be killing the right people before we do something.

[lob1]

93. If Isis was in Africa, we couldn't avoid them fast enough.

I find it strange that the only people worth helping have oil.

[liberal_at_heart]

169. strange indeed.

[JustAnotherGen]

178. I do too

I posted this up above.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025520589#post11

There will be no training or security provided by Erik Prince. His company is too busy grabbing resources in Africa to be bothered by this.

[Half-Century Man]

78. Here is a thought.

One probably very effective way to strip ISIS/ISIL of its recruitmenting tools is to, in international court, hold hearings and perhaps war crimes trials for the members of the Bush Administration and officers of Halliburton (and other American military contractors). Use this as a way to separate, in the worlds eye, the United States from it's rouge actors. The very same thing we demand from other countries. This will deeply effect ISIS/ISIL influx of new members.

[TBF]

85. They're not going to like that one -

they want to continue the pillaging. They want the oil. That is all it comes down to.

[Half-Century Man]

101. They are addicted to the money.

You do not treat a heroin addiction by granting access to unlimited amounts of heroin. You stop the addict from getting a fix and get them medical treatment. You punish them for crimes committed while in thrall if their addiction.
I suggest we try the same therapy in this case.

[Oilwellian]

108. Perhaps we could stop supplying them with weapons n/t

[arcane1]

53. Today is the Chilean coup anniversary

Still touted as a free-market success story.

[navarth]

81. Yep. 9-11 was the day of the Chilean coup. Always has made me wonder:

"Coincidence, or something more?"
-One Step Beyond

[n2doc]

84. Panama!

Manuel Noriega, that super villain.

Lebanon/Hezbollah, Made Ronnie Reagan so angry that he left them alone.

[arcane1]

90. Ah yes! Mustn't forget our invasion of a country without an army.

Such a brave move!

[KG]

18. Because it's worked so well before. because....obama!

[snooper2]

22. the isolationist left touches the teabagging right to complete the political circle

so Ron Paul?

[whatchamacallit]

130. Idiotic

[bobduca]

174. Nailed it!

High five fellow center-interventionist!!111 w00t U pwned that lefty!

[ZombieHorde]

187. I prefer the term "not murderous."

[Autumn]

25. Manny hits it out of the park. So very true, they are

an incredible threat to humanity. Just until the next one steps up due to our actions.


Autumn a sorry member of the Isolationist Left.


Seriously though. I threw up in my mouth when the undead Cheney uttered that word, he has a lot of nerve complaining about isolationists.

[jeff47]

28. I forget. Are Iraqi lives worth anything?

I seem to remember a lot of people upset about Iraqis killed when we stupidly invaded under W.

But now the same people are saying we should ignore ISIS ethnically cleansing chunks of Iraq.

So could you guys post a message or something to let us know when Iraqi lives are important and when they aren't? Thanks in advance.

[TBF]

32. Clearly nothing is worth as much as the oil. nt

[Scootaloo]

126. Who do you think will be dying in our bombing runs? Leprechauns, perhaps?

We haven't invented a massive incendiary device yet that only targets "bad guys" you know.

[jeff47]

142. Will we be lining them up by the hundreds to shoot them?

No? Then perhaps fewer would die to our bombs than ISIS's ethnic cleansing.

Nah, just "let them work it out". I'm sure ISIS will run out of civilians to shoot soon.

[Scootaloo]

155. That's really where you want to set the bar?

[NYC Liberal]

153. So because there may be some UNINTENTIONAL innocent casualties

we should do nothing to stop the intentional MURDER.

Standing by and doing nothing makes us just as culpable. There is no "do nothing" option here. Either we act to try to stop the murder, or we act by allowing the murder to happen. Allowing it to happen is not inaction. It's not "neutrality."

[Scootaloo]

156. Where did I say "DO NOTHING"?

I'm curious, please point it out to me.

[NYC Liberal]

158. Then let's do something.

I have a feeling these guys aren't going to show up to a peace summit, though.

[Scootaloo]

161. I'm asking someone to realize that our action is going to kill plenty of people

And those people will not give a shit that it's the US and not IS.

And spare me the "intent" argument. it's an argument that is utterly preposterous. One, because again, the people being killed don't give a fuck what your intent is, but more importantly, because your intent absolutely IS to kill as many civilians as you can.

Do you know what a bomb is? What they do, how they function? if not, a bomb is a weapon that explodes. Usually in the form of a concussive wave of air around a fireball, with the entire thing filled with shrapnel from the bomb itself and stuff caught in the blast. That blast, barring physical barriers impeding it, is going to be as close to a sphere as it can get. And everyone and everything caught within that area, is going to have a bad time. as I explained to your friend before, we have not invented a bomb that can only hit "bad guys."

do you know what a town or a city is? In loosest terms it's a patch of terrain where a large number of people live, work, and reside. it's a place full of homes, businesses, infrastructure, and importantly, people. Lots of people. often numbering in the thousands, all the way up to millions in the case of some cities.

Do you know what happens when you drop bombs on cities? I can tell you're not an especially creative or imaginative person, so allow me to lay it out for you - when you choose to drop bombs on a city, you are intentionally using a weapon that is by intent going to kill or maim a large number of people, on a location just chock full of people.

There is no argument that you can possibly make, that deaths caused from dropping bombs on a city are 'unintentional." it's a full-of-shit argument, espoused by people who have more hate than brains.

For instance, the core city of this "Islamic State" is Rakka, in Eastern Syria. it has a population of roughly three hundred thousand. Sicne our president has publically declared that Syria has no right to sovereign territory and will be bombed whenever the US goddamn feels like it, we can be pretty sure that Rakka will be pummeled with bombs.

Each of those bombs intentionally built to do this.

So yes, spare me your "intent" bullshit.

[Enthusiast]

31. Hey, Manny, I bet we will be greeted as liberators.

Anyway, oil will pay for the whole war.

[JimDandy]

40. Had to laugh...

Wish Obama's War was a sick joke too. Endless, endless war, and the MIC companies are laughing all the way to the bank.

[flamingdem]

89. We were in erbil amerli etc

This is not the same war

[PADemD]

34. Manny, this needs to be on a T-shirt

Where can I buy one?

[PatrickforO]

37. Absolutely right, Manny

We don't need no social programs or regulation.

Those things are for wimps! We need to keep this nation on a WAR footing at all times, because the shareholders of Halliburton are counting on us!

[Rex]

44. Hitler, something something.

Evidently, DUers are the worst sort of people...read it here on DU!

[AgingAmerican]

45. Maybe someday they will go to the source

...of the problem and deal with it there. Saudi Arabia.

[Puzzledtraveller]

46. Yeesss Manny!!!!!

I'd be happy to direct people to their nearest armed forces recruiting center because air strikes require A LOT of personnel, that wear boots, and stand, on the ground, some paint targets with lasers too, should be fun for the Gung-Ho types.

[Octafish]

49. C'mon, Manny! USA gave Saddam Hussein his first job.

Guy was an active duty CIA assassin, all in the fight against (godless and private propertyless) Communism.

[Aristus]

50. I tend to distrust people who sell themselves as clear-eyed paragons of

practical necessity.

People who insist: "You people are living in a dream world. Not me. I live in the real world. and in the real world, we etc. etc.

Idealism doesn't necessarily negate pragmatism.

One can be guided by an idealistic vision, and still be capable of dealing with practical, nuts-and-bolts concerns.

I distrust people who insist that solutions to real-world problems can only come about after lots and lots of plunder and bloodletting.

[BlindTiresias]

67. It's an old problem

The hellenic and hellenistic world was plagued by "hard nosed pragmatists" who ended up burning their world up and leading them into ruin. Those who speak of pragmatism and political expediency should be intensely distrusted as they are easily the most dangerous and sophistic of people. They will run things into the ground and then engage in elaborate rhetorical tricks and sophistry to evade blame so they repeat their process of vainglory and self glorification.

[MannyGoldstein]

121. Thread win.

That cannot be topped.

[L0oniX]

137. ^^^this^^^

[BrotherIvan]

138. You have earned your moniker with this post.

[TBF]

148. ...

[pa28]

162. They wear their pragmatism like a badge of honor.

The are so proud of being half wrong all the time.

[rhett o rick]

166. You give them way too much credit. nm

[rhett o rick]

167. well said. nm

[ChairmanAgnostic]

54. you forgot to mention

how winning will allow us to pump their oil fields to pay for the attacks.

[Cali_Democrat]

56. Warren: Destroying ISIS should be our No. 1 priority. Step up tracking of Americans traveling abroad

Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.) on Wednesday said that the Obama administration should make defeating the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria (ISIS) its top priority.

<...>

"We need to be working now, full-speed ahead, with other countries, to destroy ISIS. That should be our No. 1 priority," she said in a wide-ranging interview promoting her latest book, A Fighting Chance.

<...>

Asked about the dozens of Americans who have reportedly joined ISIS, Warren noted that the U.S. should be "stepping up our efforts to track where people go when they leave the United States."

"The terrorists have moved, and we have to move in response," she said, adding part of that "means we're going to have to change in fundamental ways how we monitor our citizens when they go abroad."

http://thehill.com/policy/international/216559-warren-destroying-isis-should-be-our-no-1-priority

[Andy823]

97. It won't be long now

Soon Elizabeth Warren will, like so many others, be thrown under the bus by those here who seem to only be able to "attack" everything the president says or does. Sadly she has been "agreeing" more with the president, and that's a bad way for those who can't seem to stop hating the president, for whatever reasons they may have.

I think this group should be callers the "one way" gang, their "one way" or the highway, to them its that simple. I just wonder how many of them would be supporting some kind of action agains ISIS if the president was actually against any action?

[Autumn]

102. Yes she did say that. I still support her and want her to run for President.

She and I may disagree on this but we agree on what should happen to the real assholes who harmed our country and hard working American citizens that are running around scott free.

[azurnoir]

58. Insanity:

doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Albert Einstein

[whatchamacallit]

59. American Psychosis Nailed K&R

[actslikeacarrot]

61. I have a "Mission Accomplished" banner i'm willing to part with...

....for cheap! One previous owner, good condition. 17 trillion obo. pm for details!

[yurbud]

71. they are getting lazier & lazier with the stuff. By the next war it will be reduced to "yada yada..

BOOM."

[TBF]

92. Gotta give them credit for the eve of 9/11 announcement -

that was a nice touch. And today on Facebook I'm learning that the day is now referred to as "Patriot's Day".

They work fast.

[yurbud]

110. That's just plagiarism from Bush

[TBF]

181. It's what we call bi-partisanship

my congress moron is Pete Olson. Got an email from him yesterday - he is ready to go to war! Well, not him personally. But he is ready to send other people's children to war.

After all the bickering of the past 6 years they finally found something they can agree on.

But FWIW, I don't think Obama has been biting at the bit to go - I think he's been trying to avoid it. But the MIC does not back down easily.

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

73. you keep forgetting

the sarcasm thingy when you post........ like that see?

[bleedinglib]

77. It's a good bet-

that IS is not forkin with Chinese interest in Iraq?
They know China will blow them too hell!!
U know who I am ??

[Earth_First]

87. Bake sale profits...

...or we could just tax each box of Girl Scout cookies to fund the War Department.

They even get a patch!

[Boom Sound 416]

98. Sadly,

Great Post

[SoLeftIAmRight]

99. Thank you - thank you - thank you

And here i am worrying about being in my mid fifties underemployed, my daughters rapidly growing student loans, my elderly parents. Lets go get ISIS.

[TBF]

106. Maybe you could join the military!

I hear they need some good soldiers ...

Sorry - I couldn't resist. And I agree with you 100%. It is time to worry about our domestic issues and one of those is jobs. Building the military industrial complex and killing excess men via war is not the best jobs plan. We need some drastic changes in this society and getting ourselves into another war is not going to help matters.

[KittyWampus]

100. Another pathetic FAIL. Your strawman argument shows the weakness of your attempt at a point.

[grahamhgreen]

104. Cuz killing all those people worked out so good the last war.

[MannyGoldstein]

119. Welcome to FailClub

Lots of room for us under the bus.

[grahamhgreen]

120. Hey! Look at the record! 13 years of war, and we're on the cusp of success!!!!

[TBF]

149. 13 years - you need to look at this

Wiki on the US at War: (well I guess there was a break from 1999-2001 if you don't count the no-fly zones ... the chart for pre-1900 is also at the link)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_United_States_at_war

[Union Scribe]

172. Uh, Manny. Rule one of FailClub

Don't talk about FailClub! Aw hell now I did it...

[marmar]

165. Yet you can't counter it.

[grahamhgreen]

103. You can't handle the truth, can you, Manny?

😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛😛

[valerief]

111. I've heard that song before.

[99Forever]

115. Same old warmonger song and dance...

... different band leader, but the steady beat of the war drums is always the same.

[DocMac]

117. We have nuclear weapons

and 300+ million guns here. People are so afraid that they will shoot their kids sneaking in late at night!

I better stop here before a rant goes on.

[blkmusclmachine]

122. Let's face it: the 99% IS the enemy!!!

[RedCappedBandit]

123. Word.

[Zorra]

124. This will be the war to end all wars! I promise!

[whereisjustice]

134. we should send those cops from Ferguson and the thousands more just like them

Big, tough defenders of freedom, send 'em over there so we don't have to fight them here.

[TBF]

151. ^ now that is an idea with merit. nt

[Maedhros]

140. Good to see that Neocon scare-tactic talking points have finally made it to DU.

Soon, we'll all come to love Big Brother.

[LibAsHell]

159. Everyone should have gotten real after the Iraq and Afghanistan wars

You do not "stop" this. I cannot imagine how people still believe that you can do anything except disperse these groups and push them into other areas, where they eventually regroup and start over.

Also don't understand the third set of sentences. It's our responsibility to spend a lot of money and risk many American lives, but this doesn't involve either? So we're not meeting our responsibilities?

And how will not cost much nor risk American lives? Are you talking about using military equipment like planes and drones to drop bombs? Because that costs money. Quite a bit, actually.

But you can't simply be talking about an air assault because you say we need to step up and stop them, and surely that means you're suggesting we put boots on the ground?

This post is confusing.

[MannyGoldstein]

164. My post is sarcasm

Well, technically parody.

Hard to tell these days, but I do what I can. Sorry for the confusion!

[rhett o rick]

168. Wait, what? Sarcasm? You? Now I'm confused. And I thought I was getting the

hand of it too. It's cool, don't worry about me.

[MannyGoldstein]

189. That's just what I tell 'em

Prevents rioting.

[LibAsHell]

188. Hahaha, ok

I can at least claim that it seemed funny, even if I missed that it was a purely sarcastic post.

Well done.

[rhett o rick]

190. Don't trust him. He has multiple personalities, and you have to be careful who you agree with.

Just sayin.

[Marr]

171. Can't type right now-- eating my peas. /nt

[bobduca]

173. You have to bold *Reality* too

Real *Reality Based* Liberals Embrace War!

[TeamPooka]

175. You forgot the Soviet Union, I mean Russia on your list. nt

[imthevicar]

176. LOL!

Only till the next Manufactured Threat used to funnel Money from us to the Military Industrial Complex.




REALLY MANNY, REALLY!?

[Sancho]

182. ...and for those in my generation...

we have to include the Russians, North Koreans, North Vietnamese, communist Chinese. Wait, what about the Mexican drug cartels, Sandinistas, Grenada, Panama, Somali, Bosnia, Kosovo, Haiti, and Libya???

If we could just convince the military complex it was worth invading schools and hospitals, we'd all be healthy, wealthy, and wise.

[iamthebandfanman]

183. scarasm

is not a mark of an intellectual.
no matter how much your school teachers got a kick out of your wit.


nobody on DU was ever for the war in Iraq. to have been here in 2002/2003 is to know that.. and to mix it in with the others you listed is a faux comparison... but way to legitimize it!

this idea that we as a nation can just cover our eyes and close our ears and everything will be okay is truly naïve.

we are a part of the world. just as the things we do effect others in the world, the things they do effect us.

no one should advocate war, especially as the first and only option to a problem in the world...
but sticking your head in the sand isn't much of an improvement...
and if the 'passive' (which is a joke.. because they weren't passive when it came to internal affairs, and rightfully so) leftist had gotten their way 100 years ago.. most of Europe would be speaking german... but hey, maybe there wouldn't have been a ww2 ? score! nah, greed and lust for control aren't traits/emotions that people just lose over night, and german ambition would have been no different..

[NealK]

184. We've always been at war with Middle Eastasia

[Alkene]

186. Indeed, doubleplusgood irony thread.

Oldthinkers unbellyfeel Obama.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

191. shall we dance?