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madinmaryland

(64,920 posts)
Wed Apr 11, 2012, 09:53 PM Apr 2012

Does something seem a bit off with the Zimmerman 2nd degree murder charge?

Are they charging him with something that no jury will convict him of? Would a manslaughter charge have been easier to get a conviction?

I just don't trust these fuckers down in Florida on this case. It just seems off. I just want to see the fucker spend time in jail and have a felony on his record, because in Florida with their fucking laws, he will never get the real punishment he deserves.



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Does something seem a bit off with the Zimmerman 2nd degree murder charge? (Original Post) madinmaryland Apr 2012 OP
Not sure what the options are for lesser charges in FL ProgressiveProfessor Apr 2012 #1
If a lesser-included offense Seeking Serenity Apr 2012 #2
If the lower charges are still available, then yes, going for the highest possible charge madinmaryland Apr 2012 #12
It's best no matter what. DevonRex Apr 2012 #19
Jury MAY have opportunity to vote for 'lesser included offense.' elleng Apr 2012 #3
This won't go to a jury. This will be pleaded down to manslaughter. DevonRex Apr 2012 #14
There is no reason for GZ to take that plea SlipperySlope Apr 2012 #35
the ONLY thing that would get in the way of a M2 is the SYG abomination got root Apr 2012 #4
They could plea bargain this Life Long Dem Apr 2012 #5
He has had a felony charge before?? Do you know what happened? madinmaryland Apr 2012 #6
In 2005 Zimmerman was arrested on DUI and battery on a police officer. Life Long Dem Apr 2012 #13
Thanks for the information. nt madinmaryland Apr 2012 #17
Does anyone have handy the legal definition of what constitutes murder in the 2nd in FL? Honeycombe8 Apr 2012 #7
Link: ManiacJoe Apr 2012 #27
Not at all. DevonRex Apr 2012 #8
Do you have the criteria of the 2nd degree murder charge in FL? Honeycombe8 Apr 2012 #10
It was posted just last night. DevonRex Apr 2012 #15
His nose healed up nice from the booking photo. bluedigger Apr 2012 #16
Yep it sure did, didn't it. DevonRex Apr 2012 #20
No. HooptieWagon Apr 2012 #9
Thank you. DevonRex Apr 2012 #22
saw something on the ny times SteveABG Apr 2012 #11
Damn. Another one. People are having serious Solomon Apr 2012 #18
Yes, I agree the evidence is there, HooptieWagon Apr 2012 #21
I don't have a problem with the charge in this case. My concern is that he madinmaryland Apr 2012 #24
manslaughter is a lesser included offense in a second Solomon Apr 2012 #31
The Special Prosecutor seemed very certain that 2nd degree was the right charge, JDPriestly Apr 2012 #36
I see three possible reasons for it RZM Apr 2012 #23
Well, #3 is a big stretch. HooptieWagon Apr 2012 #26
Well, that's why I said it was a stretch too RZM Apr 2012 #29
When I think about Zimmerman's first call to 911 -- which can come in as an JDPriestly Apr 2012 #37
I'm hoping it means they have evidence we don't know about. Baitball Blogger Apr 2012 #25
Coroners report, for one. HooptieWagon Apr 2012 #30
It would be a move that would signal, 'Hey we tried him on murder, he was found not guilty, now we Lint Head Apr 2012 #28
Three words. Blue_In_AK Apr 2012 #32
I think it was an undercharge, but an unavoidable one... Kalidurga Apr 2012 #33
You could be right, Blue_In_AK Apr 2012 #34
Not at all. We don't know what evidence the prosecutor is sitting on magical thyme Apr 2012 #38

ProgressiveProfessor

(22,144 posts)
1. Not sure what the options are for lesser charges in FL
Wed Apr 11, 2012, 09:56 PM
Apr 2012

Varies from state to state.

I am not sure Murder II will stick, but have a hard time seeing how manslaughter could not.

Seeking Serenity

(2,838 posts)
2. If a lesser-included offense
Wed Apr 11, 2012, 09:58 PM
Apr 2012

such as manslaughter ISN'T available to the jury, then, yes, I think that was a mistake to charge him with 2d-degree murder. If the jury will have the option of finding him not guilty of 2d-degree murder but guilty of a lesser offense (that will still result in prison time), then yeah, go for the most you might get.

madinmaryland

(64,920 posts)
12. If the lower charges are still available, then yes, going for the highest possible charge
Wed Apr 11, 2012, 10:04 PM
Apr 2012

is probably the best. I suppose this will play out over the next year or two, so who knows.

DevonRex

(22,541 posts)
19. It's best no matter what.
Wed Apr 11, 2012, 10:10 PM
Apr 2012

It's to encourage a plea deal as well. But this prosecutor is good. She wouldn't file M2 without the goods. He takes his chances at trial. He might as well just plead manslaughter and be done with it.

elleng

(130,128 posts)
3. Jury MAY have opportunity to vote for 'lesser included offense.'
Wed Apr 11, 2012, 09:59 PM
Apr 2012

Haven't studied THIS detail, mad. AND zim may be able to bargain down to such.
Edit: Just heard jury DOES have authority to go 'lesser included.'

DevonRex

(22,541 posts)
14. This won't go to a jury. This will be pleaded down to manslaughter.
Wed Apr 11, 2012, 10:07 PM
Apr 2012

If he knows what's good for him, he'll plead.

SlipperySlope

(2,751 posts)
35. There is no reason for GZ to take that plea
Thu Apr 12, 2012, 01:14 AM
Apr 2012

My understanding is that he would be looking at 35-40 years in prison for manslaughter versus 40-50 years in prison for murder. Given he isn't looking at much reduction in penalty if he takes the manslaughter charges, why would he plea?

I could be wrong but I think the Florida 10-20-LIFE law is going to make the plea not make sense.

 

got root

(425 posts)
4. the ONLY thing that would get in the way of a M2 is the SYG abomination
Wed Apr 11, 2012, 10:00 PM
Apr 2012

just all the more reason it needs to be repealed ASAP.

 

Life Long Dem

(8,582 posts)
5. They could plea bargain this
Wed Apr 11, 2012, 10:00 PM
Apr 2012

Zimmerman received plea bargains before. He had a felony charge reduced to a misdemeanor. Then again the prosecutor doesn't need to offer a plea bargain.

Honeycombe8

(37,648 posts)
7. Does anyone have handy the legal definition of what constitutes murder in the 2nd in FL?
Wed Apr 11, 2012, 10:02 PM
Apr 2012

Hard to say without knowing what the critria in FL is of murder in the 2nd, as welll as lesser charges.

DevonRex

(22,541 posts)
8. Not at all.
Wed Apr 11, 2012, 10:02 PM
Apr 2012

He was told to remain with his car once. Then he was told not to persue Trayvon. He ignored both instructions. He was armed and stalked an unarmed teenager. The taped 911 calls prove that it was the teenager crying for help. THEN the shot was fired.

Second degree murder charges are appropriate. That's without forensic testing, which you can bet will prove from angle of the shot that things did NOT occur as he claimed.

He did not have a broken nose. He was not bleeding. He had no bruises. He had no grass stains even. What scuffle, much less what attack upon his person? So, no, the charge appears to be perfectly appropriate.

DevonRex

(22,541 posts)
20. Yep it sure did, didn't it.
Wed Apr 11, 2012, 10:12 PM
Apr 2012

They have him on really solid evidence, otherwise no way in hell they'd go for M2. Combined with the bullshit he put out there, he'd better be praying they take a plea at this point. Unless he got his new attorneys out of a cracker jack box.

 

HooptieWagon

(17,064 posts)
9. No.
Wed Apr 11, 2012, 10:03 PM
Apr 2012

I dont think a prosecutor can file charges above what they have evidence to prove, and have a reasonable jury convict. That would be abuse of power and prosecutorial misconduct, which would subject her to removal from office and disbarrment. Thats not to say there is a guarrantee the charge may stick, and she may end up going for a more certain manslaughter plea.

Solomon

(12,305 posts)
18. Damn. Another one. People are having serious
Wed Apr 11, 2012, 10:09 PM
Apr 2012

problems with the charge in this case. I have every
confidence that clear evidence is there.

 

HooptieWagon

(17,064 posts)
21. Yes, I agree the evidence is there,
Wed Apr 11, 2012, 10:13 PM
Apr 2012

But a jury is going to be a wildcard. They may not decide based on the evidence.

madinmaryland

(64,920 posts)
24. I don't have a problem with the charge in this case. My concern is that he
Wed Apr 11, 2012, 10:32 PM
Apr 2012

walks based on being overcharged. I hope the evidence is there that you seem so confident is actually there.

It is in Florida, which can be pretty fucked up at times.

Solomon

(12,305 posts)
31. manslaughter is a lesser included offense in a second
Wed Apr 11, 2012, 10:56 PM
Apr 2012

degree murder charge. There's no damn "overcharge".

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
36. The Special Prosecutor seemed very certain that 2nd degree was the right charge,
Thu Apr 12, 2012, 02:48 AM
Apr 2012

that she had sufficient evidence to support that charge.

She knows more than we do about it.

One thing about lawyers -- especially prosecutors -- that we must remember: they like to win. Losing really hurts. So, I think the prosecutor is more likely than not to prosecute this case diligently. In addition to the natural desire to win the case, Trayvon's parents seemed very gentle, very kind and likeable. The prosecutor was quite solicitous of their feelings and needs. I may be wrong, but I am fairly optimistic. I am usually the total pessimist.

I do not mean to say that I am optimistic about a particular outcome -- guilty or not guilty. But I am optimistic that the prosecutor will do her best and that she is being pretty cautious about what she says. That is smart.

 

RZM

(8,556 posts)
23. I see three possible reasons for it
Wed Apr 11, 2012, 10:16 PM
Apr 2012

1) Prosecutor feels the evidence is strong and that a second degree murder charge is entirely appropriate.
2) Get him to plead down to a manslaughter charge.
3) Prosecutor is deliberately overcharging in the hopes of a 'hail mary' conviction that increases her profile and clout.

I'd say one and two are the most likely. Three is kind of a stretch, but it's not outside the realm of possibility.

 

HooptieWagon

(17,064 posts)
26. Well, #3 is a big stretch.
Wed Apr 11, 2012, 10:39 PM
Apr 2012

If shes just throwing shit against the wall, then shes going to be facing charges of prosecutorial misconduct. I think shes too smart and careful for that. I think she has evidence for murder2 charge, and a reasonable (but not 100% certainty) that a jury will convict.

 

RZM

(8,556 posts)
29. Well, that's why I said it was a stretch too
Wed Apr 11, 2012, 10:41 PM
Apr 2012

I actually saw it floated here first (can't remember the thread, but h/t to whomever it was

It's a remote possibility for sure. Probably it's either 1 or 2.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
37. When I think about Zimmerman's first call to 911 -- which can come in as an
Thu Apr 12, 2012, 02:50 AM
Apr 2012

admission of the defendant I believe -- I think the 2nd degree charge may be less ambitious than it first appeared to me. It depends on what other evidence is out there especially the autopsy report and the medical report on Zimmerman.

 

HooptieWagon

(17,064 posts)
30. Coroners report, for one.
Wed Apr 11, 2012, 10:44 PM
Apr 2012

Also the report of police and paramedics on the scene regarding GZs alleged injury. And there may be additional witnesses that we dont know about. And its unlikely the investigators turned up any exculpatory evidence backing up GZs SYG claim.

Lint Head

(15,064 posts)
28. It would be a move that would signal, 'Hey we tried him on murder, he was found not guilty, now we
Wed Apr 11, 2012, 10:41 PM
Apr 2012

can go back to the way it was before'. Just thinking.

Kalidurga

(14,177 posts)
33. I think it was an undercharge, but an unavoidable one...
Thu Apr 12, 2012, 12:00 AM
Apr 2012

I think that it is clear that Zimmerman was hunting for a victim. There were several 911 calls iirc there were 47 in one year. When ever the operator asked Zimmerman to identify the race of the person he was calling about that person was black. I haven't heard that any one was ever arrested because of any of these calls. I can only assume, his calls were deemed nuisance calls because of that. It seems clear Zimmerman had issues with black people. I would investigate further to rule out or prove that Zimmerman committed a hate crime. He was told to not stalk his victim he did anyway and less than a minute later Trayvon was dead.

The reason it was unavoidable is because a grand jury is the only way to push for murder one. Grand Juries are unpredictable. I would have not gone that route either seeing what the SPD, did and didn't do with this case already. No, telling if this is part of the towns culture or not having race issues. So, 2nd is the most we can hope for in this case.

Blue_In_AK

(46,436 posts)
34. You could be right,
Thu Apr 12, 2012, 01:03 AM
Apr 2012

but proving that iintent, "hunting for a victim," would be difficult, I would think. He may very well have been, but how do you prove it?

If she can get a conviction for second-degree murder, he can still be put away for a long time. Other "vigilantes" might think twice.

 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
38. Not at all. We don't know what evidence the prosecutor is sitting on
Thu Apr 12, 2012, 08:42 AM
Apr 2012

If voice analysis plus witnesses prove the 40 seconds of pleading for his life were Trayvon, not Zimmerman, it clearly becomes murder.

If the autopsy report in any way disputes Zimmerman's claim of shooting him in the chest at close range, say if the chest wound is an exit wound, then his whole story becomes a fabrication. And if by chance he was shot in the back (he was found face down with his hands under him) that becomes murder.

Other forensic evidence that we don't know of may also prove murder.

We don't know. But by going for murder, she also leaves the door open for a plea that will still see him convicted and doing serious time.

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