The Hawkeye Initiative redraws absurd superheroine poses with Hawkeye

[redqueen]

We've seen a lot of clever responses to the spine-twisting, butt-baring poses so many female comic book characters are subjected to, but The Hawkeye Initiative is particularly fun. Their mission: to take those particularly awful poses and replace the female characters with Hawkeye.

Why Hawkeye? It seems it all began when artist Blue decided to switch the poses and positions of Hawkeye and the Black Widow on one of their comic book covers:



Then Blue and Noelle Stevenson (also known as Gingerhaze and creator of the fabulous webcomic Nimona threw a challenge out to Tumblr: fix those "Strong Female Character" poses by replacing them with Hawkeye doing the same thing. And the Hawkeye Initiative Tumblr was born. Granted, the poses aren't always exact copies; the contributors are having a bit of silly fun and tend to give Hawkeye but sparkles or make him mug for the camera. But it's always interesting to see artists recontextualize a female pose with a male character.

...

http://io9.com/5964969/the-hawkeye-initiative-redraws-absurd-superheroine-poses-with-hawkeye

And before anyone gets started with the false equivalence...


http://www.shortpacked.com/2011/comic/book-13/05-the-death-of-snkrs/falseequivalence/



Sadly -- but hardly surprisingly -- many people are still unclear about why sexual harassment is even a problem.

Some of the consequences of widespread sexual objectification are:

Sexual harassment
Depression, eating disorders, etc.
And of course, violence against women:

Thankfully, more and more people who do recognize the sexism inherent in sexual objectification are speaking up. Support these voices. Call out objectification and raise awareness of the problems it causes. This is just one very effective method of fighting back against rape culture and helping to change the way women are portrayed and perceived.




And because this is too good to miss and I know not everyone will click the links, I'm going to include one of the redrawn images of the Madara cover... From the awesome tumblr blog Less Tits N' Ass, More Kickin' Ass:

...just by making the pelvis horizontal and lifting the torso off the ground, I’ve managed to move the center of gravity so her weight is on her feet instead of her knees, she can use her arms to maneuver in most directions, and you still get an interesting body shape to look at. I think this works better, and much more ready to spring into motion.

More in-depth discussion here:

[pinboy3niner]

1. Clever way to make a point!

[redqueen]

2. It certainly makes the contrast impossible to miss!

Unless you try really, really hard to miss it, of course.

[pinboy3niner]

6. The great thing is that it involves others in contributing

It's crowdsourcing in a way.

It probably draws in some who would not ordinarily be sympathetic, but can't resist the challenge.

It opens minds.

[redqueen]

7. Yep, it really is a great idea.

[Rex]

18. .

[kentauros]

47. Those are great!

Now, here's a comics guy that wears a "dress" on purpose

The Bouncer
(click on "Preview" to see the comic)

[MADem]

130. I am roaring with laughter, here....

I thought the HULK doing his sexy thang was funny enough, and then I scroll down to the "pants" one...

[Rex]

136. The hulk made me LOL!

Batman looks a little bewildered.

[pinboy3niner]

3. .

[redqueen]

9. Thanks!

[Tuesday Afternoon]

4. DU Rec.

Honestly, If people on DU are not getting it by this point ... They might have a vested interest in NOT getting it.

I really don't know what other conclusion to draw.

[redqueen]

8. I dunno either Tuesday.

But that's why I started this thread, to try to make it a little more clear.

[Heidi]

5. Kick!

[redqueen]

10. Thank you!

[Squinch]

11. Kicking, because this crap gets so ridiculous. I particularly like the quote, "Welcome to the

background radiation of my life."

[redqueen]

12. That quote does sum it up where sexual objectification is concerned.

Thanks.

[redqueen]

13. Just adding more evidence of progress.

http://www.theouthousers.com/index.php/news/127045-experts-speak-out-in-defense-of-objectification-of-women-in-comics.html

http://comicsalliance.com/marvel-dc-female-audience-female-characters-female-creators/

http://whateveraspidercan.com/2014/08/23/artistic-critique-greg-land-milo-manara-spider-woman-covers/

[redqueen]

14. Guess who agrees that this issue is no big deal

Breitbart and the commenters there.

Says it all!

[BainsBane]

17. That's not possible.

Of course it is. Look at any RW website and the arguments about women, objectification, and porn are identical.

Of course, these same people told us Hobby Lobby is no big deal and that there is no such thing as male privilege. So what can you expect?

[redqueen]

22. Yep, it's interesting how those same RW arguments are so popular on this site.

[snooper2]

89. Like the xtian fundies on YouTube that say PRON IS EVIL!

[redqueen]

95. You mean the women who used to be in porn who talk about being abused?

[snooper2]

98. Yeah, there are a couple of those "converts" who are milking the scene

Then you have the die-hard brainwashed from birth crew like these idiots

Sorry, the lady in red talks a little funny It is the Christian Broadcast Network (CBN) though so what do you expect LOL

[redqueen]

100. Your lack of compassion is noted.

http://gawker.com/former-porn-star-recalls-her-horror-story-of-a-career-1450244388

I'd say it's sad that you find the issue so amusing but then you're probably just wanting another opportunity to ... do what you do.

[snooper2]

106. You mean for compassion for people like Shelley Lubben the fraud?

Monica Foster Speaks The Truth On Shelley Lubben

Porn Star Savannah Jane Talks About Shelley Lubben

[redqueen]

108. No. Try reading. Did you find anyone trying to discredit Alexa Cruz as well?

How about Jersey Jaxin?

Any of the dozens of others who speak out?

That you care so little says so much. Really.

[snooper2]

111. don't know who they are, but if you go from doing porn for a living

and the next weekend you are a hard core fundy making money off the sheeple...

I'm going to be just a "little" suspect...



Anyway, I thought this thread was about butts?

[redqueen]

112. No, sexual objectification in comics. You're the one who started talking about porn.

I'm so, so very shocked that you don't know anything about any woman who says anything bad about her experiences doing porn.

And that you didn't give a shit about the issue enough to watch the interview wirh Alexa Cruz, which was at the link I posted.

Shocked. Shocked, I tell you.

[snooper2]

114. You brought up RW arguments, In post #89 I brought up fundies/PRON

where stupid ass fundies previously in porn have been posted at this site- IE: real example of RW arguments being brought to this site (remember posting those?)



You jumped in and are now lumping in ALL people who were hurt by porn. Good tactic but still a fail-


Train on track, train not on track, do we have a caboose?

[opiate69]

102. You mean the one who had this to say about our president?

Obama endorses Planned Parenthood. I guess he doesn't mind endorsing the porn industry then. Because the main porn lawyer and only registered lobbyist for the porn industry is the former Senior Vice President of Planned Parenthood Diane Duke. She went from killing babies to destroying women in porn to destroying your family by her vigorous efforts to defend pornography. See for yourself at the link below. Obama endorses these people! Will you vote for a president that endorses the porn industry and the killing of over 3,700 babies a day in the USA? God is watching your vote.

https://m.facebook.com/ShelleyLubbenFanPage/posts/284761428290794
The one who's own brother thinks she's a lying loon?

[redqueen]

107. Nope. She's just one of many. There's a link above. Try reading. nt

[Starry Messenger]

15. k&r

[redqueen]

25. Thank you.

Another bit from the progressive side of this issue...

"A woman might find these big dudes attractive, but they're not designed for her; they're designed for him. The same 'him' that the female heroes have traditionally been designed for. It's all for him," Andrew Wheeler wrote at Comics Alliance.

A common refrain from fans who think the cover is overblown is that comics are made for the men who read them. Never mind that that narrow-minded comment really doesn't do comics or their readers justice. It also ignores research that says the gender split of comic readers isn't that large. Or consider this: more than half of the attendees at Emerald City Comicon in Seattle were women.

http://www.vox.com/2014/8/25/6063553/the-non-comic-persons-guide-to-the-spider-woman-cover

[Hell Hath No Fury]

16. Thank you for holding down the fort --

I just didn't have the energy for that "other" thread.

[redqueen]

23. I understand completely.

I hope you had some time to check out some of the links.

This one is particularly good for a laugh

And the point I made in post 14 gives some much needed context to that other thread, too.

It is reassuring to know that there are actually plenty of progressive views on the issue of sexual objectification... just don't expect to see them well represented on DU... for whatever reason.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

24. Checked them out --

and shared on FB. Yes, it is heartening to know some people GET it. Sad that it's not here.

[BainsBane]

19. Who is Hawkeye?

[Blue_Adept]

20. A long time Avenger character

Very popular at the moment in a quirky book of his own. Has made appearances in a few of the films.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawkeye_(comics)

Unrelated, but shows what Marvel has done at times, "In 2012, the mother of 4-year-old Anthony Smith contacted Marvel because her son would not wear his hearing aid, as superheroes do not have to. Marvel responded with a custom comic book of the superhero Blue Ear for Anthony, and also pointed out that at one time Hawkeye was deaf and used hearing aids."

[redqueen]

21. One of the Avengers

Oops on edit I see that this has already been answered.

[BklnDem75]

57. If you've seen the Avengers, it's this guy:

[Iron Man]

26. So nobody in the links you provided know anything about comics.

It's all nonsense knee-jerk reactions.

[hifiguy]

27. And the "reversed" Hawkeye/Black Widow cover

looks perfectly normal to me, and I've probably read 10,000 superhero comics in my life.

[redqueen]

28. You guys will find no disagreement with your views at Breitbart.

[Iron Man]

29. You were shown to be wrong in the other thread about comics.

[hifiguy]

30. Seriously, I do not find the transposition of

Hawkeye and BW's poses to look odd in the slightest. They are both stock superhero poses. Hawkeye looks no more unusual in that particular "somersault" kind of pose than BW does. Standard for both action movies and comics for both male and female characters. ETA - that particular cover says "kung fu movie" to me more than anything else, and in either variant.

[opiate69]

31. And you'll find no disagreement with yours here:

http://moralityinmedia.org/

http://www.focusonthefamily.com/lifechallenges/love_and_sex/pornography.aspx

[redqueen]

32. No, those links say nothing about the Spider Woman cover.

What a pathetic and transparent attempt to dodge this issue and derail this thread

Meanwhile...

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Hollywood/2014/08/20/Female-Comics-Fans-Upset-Over-Spider-Woman-s-Ass

[opiate69]

34. *Squawk!* Derail!! Derail!!! Derail!!!!

[Inkfreak]

36. Jury results.

On Tue Aug 26, 2014, 02:43 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

*Squawk!* Derail!! Derail!!! Derail!!!!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5447171

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Rude, disruptive, etc.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue Aug 26, 2014, 02:48 PM, and the Jury voted 3-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Rude and immature post that's just an empty attack on another DU'er's post with no other purpose/content.
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: This whole thread is quasi-feminist twaddle--leave it
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Agree with Alerter - rude and disruptive. Also extremely juvenile but typical for this poster.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The poster is correct. As if Brietbart has squat to do with the discussion. It's funny that those antiporn crusaders here would try to smear by association. As they enjoy a seat under the fundys tent with their views.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[opiate69]

37. lmao. Thanks

Alas, not an 0-fer... maybe next time lol

[Iron Man]

40. The person dodging the issue in this thread is you.

You said two posters who don't agree with your views on this matter are better suited for that piece of crap website Brietbart.

[PragmaticLiberal]

38. Yeah, I was thinking the same thing.

I can understand why some of the poses might be considered offensive etc but others are just standard superhero poses.

[KitSileya]

122. How can you say it looks perfectly normal, when Black Widow's spine is severed?

That's the only way she can show off both her butt and her breasts at the same time in that manner.


...but I guess if butts and breasts are one's only interest in a woman, the rest of the body is incidental.

[hifiguy]

123. As I noted elsewhere, the first thing I thought of when seeing

both of those covers was that it recalled the gymnastic stunts in "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon." Believe me or not, it is the truth. I look for composition and skill in comic art. Maybe that's just me, and a cover never sold me ONE of the thousands of comic books I have bought over the years. The quality of the creative team, the character, the overall storyline, even nostalgia? Sure. The cover art, never.

[KitSileya]

124. Oh well, I guess none are so blind as those who will not see. n/t

[hifiguy]

126. The very fact that someone who is a veteran reader of comic books

can simply pass over it belies the theory that what you see in it is somehow omnipresent or subliminal. I see two superheroes doing superhero kinds of things in both pieces of cover art, nothing more.

No matter how many times you call a dog a cat, that does not make it true.

[KitSileya]

128. It isn't subliminal, it is very explicit.

However, a lot of even veteran readers of comic books can be blind on some issues, simply because it is so omnipresent.

However, other veteran readers of comic books, such as myself, see it quite clearly. If you cannot see the difference in the poses of Hawkeye and Black Widow, I suggest look at the differences in the poses of male and female superheroes. Try them out, if you dare. Get someone to take pictures. And have the phone number of a doctor handy. You'll see that for the most part, you'll have no troubles doing the poses of the male superheroes, but try to get you butt and your chest to face the same way. I dare you.

[hifiguy]

131. Mocking Rob Liefeld's impossible anatomy

was one of my favorite pastimes in my fanboy days. Bad art is bad art. I always preferred photorealists like Paul Gulacy, Neal Adams and George Perez. There were some artists whose work I simply could not tolerate. Because they were bad comic artists with failed imaginations or stylistic ripoffs of other, better talent.

Unfortunately the very excellent Jim Lee influenced a lot of people without a fraction of his talent to try and draw like him, with results that were not good. McFarlane's influence also was not a good one even though his extreme stylization owed a lot to Steve Ditko, the co-creator of Spider-Man.

[KitSileya]

132. Shall I take it as read that you agree that the poses of the women are anatomically impossible?

Since you write nothing about it.

[hifiguy]

140. I will. Because anatomically impossible poses

are generally not good art, the sort which makes a story better as a whole thing. Liefeld can't draw any human figure with anything like anatomical correctness. There are dozens of pages on the 'tubes dedicated to his artistic ineptitude. See for example: http://unrealitymag.com/index.php/2012/08/17/a-gallery-of-rob-liefleds-anatomical-abominations/ or google "40 worst Liefeld drawings". How is this klown a professional artist? That hack had a huge and highly pernicious influence on comic art. More than anyone else he is responsible for the anatomical impossibilities so many of today's artists seem to be in love with.

The best artists, IMO, bring plausibility to their art even given the exaggerated conventions of the superhero genre and don't overextend those conventions but play with them. I will let Jack Kirby's late work slide in terms of anatomical questionability because he was Jack Kirby and he was getting on in years, but it was always artists like Byrne, Adams, Perez and Gulacy to name a few, that really drew me in to stories with their art. Believable worlds make for more involving stories.

[Warpy]

33. The drawings are done by and for sexually immature males

who want to see an idealized woman's tits and ass at the same time.

Any live woman who tried these poses would need to have a chiropractor on retainer.

Besides, get it? Tits and ass. The rest of her is just filler, right?

[Iron Man]

39. Wow.

You are totally wrong. It's clear you don't know what you're talking about either when it comes to comic books. Those "sexually immature males" enjoy reading about nerdy superheroes saving the world. Watch tv shows like Comic Book Men on AMC. Not one of their discussions are about how hot female superheroes are.

If "sexually immature males" wanted to see idealized women, they'd surf porn. Not comic books.

[Warpy]

41. Uh, I hate to be the first one to tell you

but that garbage is porn.

I'm talking about the drawings, not the content.

[Iron Man]

43. Comic books are porn?

I wasn't aware that one had to 18+ to purchase a comic book.

[Marr]

46. Yeah, really.

The ignorant, puritanical strain that pops up in these discussions is just bizarre. And it always seems to be the people who know the absolute least about it that mouth their opinions the loudest.

[Iron Man]

48. You know, those of us who read comics are "sexually immature men".

I'm sure my wife would say otherwise. She reads them with me. Is she a sexually immature woman?

[hifiguy]

110. ALWAYS. 100% of the time.

As sure as eggs is eggs. Makes ya wonder.

[el_bryanto]

72. Comics Alliance - people who make their living writing about comics - have pointed out a lot

of these issues.

I think they know about Comics.

Bryant

[Iron Man]

86. Nobody here knows what they're talking about when it comes to comics

except those of us who read comics.

I'm a male in my early 30s and I was told only sexually immature males read porn, erm, comics. My wife, in her late 20s, would disagree with that. In fact, we met at our college's comic book club, which had many young men and women involved. You know what we found fascinating about comic books? Superpowers.

This thread, and the other one like it, are filled with people making broad brush statements about something they know nothing about.

[el_bryanto]

90. I read comics as well

There are a lot of great comics out there - that said there is a lot of sexism and unfortunate stereotypes of women in comics, sometimes shading into outright misogyny.

I love comics, but because I love them, I don't want to turn a blind eye to their faults.

Bryant

[leftstreet]

35. DURec

The Batman redraw...very clever!

[Marr]

42. I've been a comics fan since I was kid, and I'd be the first to admit

that women still tend to be more objectified in comics, in terms of poses, costumes, writing, etc.

BUT--

If you aren't familiar with the art form, you're not going to see just how much better things have gotten over the last fifteen years or so. It is immensely improved. There are lots of female artists, writers, colorists, etc. now-- and they tend to bring a different sensibility that's been a real breath of fresh air. The work of male writers and artists, too, is also much more equitable and non-sexist than it used to be.

One other thing, and I think it's just another point that's missed if you aren't familiar with this type of media. The guy who did the Spider-Woman cover is named Milo Manara, and he's known primarily for erotica. He's got to be in his 70's now. He's a brand, and very well known in Europe, though much less so in the States. All that is to say that he would be commissioned specifically because his work is out of step with mainstream American comics.

I would really encourage you to pick up some issues of... maybe Saga or Fiona Staples' run on Fantastic Four... and see for yourself how much more female friendly the field is today.

[Blue_Adept]

45. Huge rec on Saga

Fantastic book that should be read by all.

And for those looking for some really thoughtful material that has a lot of content, definitely pick up Sandman.

[redqueen]

49. Tend to be? Why the watering down? Progressive fans state it plainly:

Female characters are sexually objectified as a rule. There are few exceptions.

It is a problem that progressives recognize and it is sad to see this topic getting the Limbaugh/Breitbart treatment here.

Not surprising. Just sad.

[Blue_Adept]

50. Just curious, but do you read any?

I mean, first hand experience and all. It's not a requirement for comment of course, but just a curious question as to whether you've read anything from the medium.

[redqueen]

51. My favorite is The Tick. I used to go to Comic Conventions in my teens and twenties.

Now I take my teenage daughters.

I still have to resist the urge to browse the racks at Half Price Books. I really don't make enough money to support that habit.

[Blue_Adept]

52. Love the Tick

The creator was a local back in the day with New England Comics publishing it, so it was obviously huge here.

Visit comixology.com sometime - they have a lot of free books and tons of sales that makes getting stuff really cheap and accessible, especially since they have a Submit program that allows indie artists and writers to get stuff out there. The amount of free stuff is impressive and you can get trades for a couple of bucks on sale usually.

[redqueen]

53. Ben Edlund?

I started watching Supernatural solely because he was involved with the show.

[Blue_Adept]

59. Yup

He's had decent success in Hollywood, though I wish he was driving his own projects and creativity rather than that of others. But that's what you do sometimes.

I still giggle when I think about those shirts NEC produced for the book with the ninjas holding shrubbery and saying "I am hedge." And people who get "SPOON!" are the best people in the world.

[redqueen]

60. SPOOOOOON!

He really is the best.

[Blue_Adept]

62. Yep!

Did you ever see the live action shown? Patrick Warburton totally owned that role.

[img][/img]

[redqueen]

64. Of course.

And the cartoon as well.

Night of a million zillion ninjas was one of his best comics ever IMO.

[Marr]

77. I said "tend to be" because that accurately describes the situation, in my view.

I don't think this is endemic to the industry, and I'm not going to condemn a whole sea of artists and writers unfairly. That's not "watering down".

You can't legitimately claim anything is done "as a rule" in comics, because you don't read them. Twenty years ago does not count-- the industry has changed immensely in that time. I gave you an honest opinion. Suggesting that I'm lying or watering things down because I don't agree with the extreme position you've taken, sight unseen, is absurd.

[redqueen]

85. Why are you claiming I don't read them?

The fact is many progressive fans are aware of the extent of the problem.

[Marr]

88. Do you?

I inferred that you don't currently read comics because you cited the Tick as your favorite. I agree that series has been hilarious in every iteration, by the way.

But the Tick hasn't been an ongoing title for about 20 years now. He pops up in specials occasionally, but that's about it, unless I'm mistaken.

[redqueen]

92. Is it your implication that unless I continuously purchase comics I can't criticize

the sexual objectification of female characters in the medium?

See this is what's annoying: Sexual objectification is fucked up. But so few acknowledge that one simple fact. And in this thread, even though I've posted many links to progressive voices IN THE INDUSTRY and from ACTUAL CURRENT FANS who recognize that depicting female characters as if they were porn is sexist and misogynistic, STILL the discussion is diverted to well do I even read them still now currently. Or what about the poor, poor artists who want to draw every female comic character in the pornified style that so many men seem to feel so entitled to - what about THEIR fee fees?

Ugh

[Marr]

99. Anyone making such sweeping condemnations should know what they're talking about, yes.

You're the one who insisted my acknowledgement that sexist representations of women are present in some comics was watered down, and that such representations were "the rule". If you're going to insult a whole collection of writers, artists, and fans in this way, yes-- I definitely think you should actually know something about the art form you're condemning.

Don't we make fun of right-wingers who moralize about movies they can't be bothered to watch?

[redqueen]

101. "Insult." Love that framing. nt

[ismnotwasm]

125. I read them

And I agree with RedQueen. And, no I'm not wasting time defending or describing what I read, because it appears you've missed a few salient points in this discussion.

Whoosh is the sound.

[Marr]

129. Strange.

"I refuse to waste time describing what I read".

If you really think that the comics industry, as a rule, is misogynistic and sexist, and you frequent HoF, and you regularly read comics... I would think you'd have a thing or two to contribute on this subject.

[Sheldon Cooper]

133. What's even stranger is the expectation that she should

bother to contribute anything when it's very clear that SOME people are completely unreceptive to hearing it.

[Marr]

137. Of course she should.

If you want to take an extreme position and condemn a whole community of artists and writers as producing sexist work, you're damned right you should be able and willing to engage with specifics. You disagree with that?

Again, my position here has not been that the comics industry is devoid of sexist or misogynistic portrayals of women. They exist, and too often. However, I think the industry has greatly improved over the years, and cannot fairly be so broadly condemned.

[Sheldon Cooper]

139. What I disagree with is anyone trying to have this conversation with you in particular.

You have aggressively made it quite clear that you'll accept no feedback from people who disagree with you. In fact, you even threw out the old 'member of HOF' allegation, which makes your motives rather obvious. So, why should ism or anyone else bother? You have no intentions of accepting anything less than total surrender.

And now, I'm done talking to you. Have the last word...

[Marr]

141. My entire position is that redqueen's accusations have some merit...

...but that her blanket condemnation is unfair. How can you possibly judge my position as the one demanding "total surrender"?

It's that kind of blinders-on, dig-in-and-defend sort of dialogue that I have no interest in. So if that's all you have to contribute, I'm glad you're done talking.

[ismnotwasm]

134. Aw, you went and hurt my feelings.

If I thought you wanted a discussion-- I'd do it. You want an argument. I almost never play these games with y'all. Not gonna do it now for that matter.

And Whoosh was the sound of not getting 'the' or any, for that matter, point. Your sentence structure and general argument technique show a reasonable degree of intelligence too. That always makes me sad.

I do like the 'flying bullshit' line-- pretty good. I think I might make a meme, or at least save it for future reference

[Marr]

138. I actually deleted that retort because it was rude.

And I'm honestly interested in a discussion here.

[el_bryanto]

109. All you would have to do is look at the Marvel DC solicitations for any given month

and you would see plenty of examples.

And there clearly are people who read a lot comics who are pointing out this issue.

I don't know what your objection is exactly? I want comics to be more open to women and less of a boys club because I want comics as a medium to succeed. Narrowing them down to "things middle aged men remember liking when they were teenage boys" is going to limit the ability of comics to succeed as a medium - and yet that's what we see at Marvel and especially DC.

Bryant

[hifiguy]

113. Which is why there are so many non-Marvel, non-DC titles out there these days.

Non-superhero, too, for that matter. Comics are a lot like the US beer market - there was one basic style with a small number of producers. Now there are countless producers making comics to suit every possible taste from childish to highly sophisticated with everything in between to boot. The big guys are still there but you can be a serious comics fan and not read one DC or Marvel book. If you want something different it is clear you haven't been looking because it is out there like never before.

[el_bryanto]

115. That's true - but DC and Marvel are still the face of the industry

and they still sell the lions share of comics. Given the success of the Marvel Movies and the DC Animated Series they are likely to be the gateway into comics for new fans. And if they portray a world that isn't interested in females except as objects, than that's problematic.

Bryant

[Marr]

127. I began here by acknowledging that such depictions are still present.

What I have a problem with is the claim that such depictions are "the rule" in comics, as in endemic-- and that anything less than a sweeping condemnation of the art form is "watered down" criticism. I think comics have greatly improved on this front over the years-- especially the last ten or so.

[AngryAmish]

44. Let us be clear: Imaginary people with superpowers are important because so many young people

nowadays have superpowers. And if anyone views images of imaginary people or creatures with superpowers in pornified or unnatural poses or dress that is less than proper, then the young teens nowadays with superpowers, such as the ability to form change, or have ray guns on their feet will then internalize these images and make them dress too sexy.

While the 1st Amendment, sadly, remain a bulwark against the criminalizing of these images we can still exert social and commercial pressure to make sure such images cannot be produced or sold without those that do people who choose to cross such a line become unemployable and have their creative lives ruined.

We are making progress.

[LittleBlue]

54. Comic books reflect what teenage boys want to see

Women in tight clothes and sexual poses, and men who look jacked up on roids.

Why politicize the tastes of teenage boys? Reminds me of the pointless outrage over Twilight. You'll never convince teen girls to stop liking cheesy vampire romances or boy bands. Similarly, you can't teach away boys' love for fit women in spandex and pumped male heroes.

[redqueen]

55. There are tons of progressive voices on fan sites that you can use to educate yourself.

I've posted plenty of links, I'm not going to explain it again here.

Or you can just continue with the Limbaugh view of sexual objectification.

[LittleBlue]

58. He dislikes comic books, like you

A quick google was all it took

RUSH: I’ve never read comic books, in fact. I just never have. You know, I was stunned. I mean, I’ve heard of Spider-Man and all that stuff but I’ve never read them. I didn’t know Iron Man was a comic book. They make these movies. (interruption) The staff is worried here that I’m somehow doing harm to myself by admitting truthful aspects. What is so horrible about not having…? (interruption) Well, I’m sorry, Snerdley. Sorry, Snerdley. (interruption) Snerdley’s telling me that Marvel comic books are a way of life for American boys. See, that’s… (interruption) X-Men. I never knew the X-Men was a comic book. When I saw the first X-Men movies, I thought, “Wow, somebody’s got a creative imagination.” I never knew X-Men was a comic book.

If there were a repository of every item I’ve ever had, you would not find one comic book. There was… (interruption) What did I do…? (interruption) I did play with baseball cards. I played baseball. I read a lot. I started working when I was 13. I hated being a kid. Don’t forget that, Snerdley. I hated being a kid, and I didn’t want to do anything that was identified with being a kid. I wanted to be an adult the first time I hung around ‘em. They were having fun, plus they were bossing me around. So I might have… (interruption) Wait a second, wait a second! Wait a second, wait a second, wait a second! I do remember this. I have erred. I do remember one time my mother gave me a Swanson’s Frozen Fried Chicken TV Dinner and I read a couple pages of a Superman comic book while eating it, and I watched Clutch Cargo on TV, which is a cartoon show. One of the worst of all times, but it was still on TV. One of my favorite cartoons was The Wacky Races. (interruption) Oh, yeah, The Wacky Races and the Road Runner and the Coyote, but I didn’t read comic books. (interruption) No, no, no. Guys in Missouri didn’t have to go out and do the harvest. I’m sure even people had to go out and do the harvest read comic books. (interruption) Now I never read Sgt. Rock. I never heard of Sgt. Rock. Let me go back to the phones here. Why is this so unbelievable? (interruption) No, it’s not! Comic books…? Comic books are like Rockwell Americana stuff? Sorry. Sorry. Not me.

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2010/05/13/rush-limbaugh-refuses-to-read-own-comic-book-attacks-it-anyway/


He actually got criticized for attacking comic books that he doesn't read. Like you.

[redqueen]

63. I referred to his view of SEXUAL OBJECTIFICATION, not comic books.

And I actually DO like comic books.

And now that you've demonstrated, once again, that you're ... doing what you're doing (ahem) ... I'm done

[Blue_Adept]

61. A bad argument

Considering that the majority of new books cost $3 - $4 a pop and can largely be purchased through limited distribution of the direct market as opposed to newstands, corner stores and drug stores, it's not an accessible medium overall for "teenage boys." The majority are men in their twenties and up, which is why most books barely break 100,000 issues a month and the majority are in the 30-40,000 copy range.

And even still, it's a worthy discussion because there is a lot of imprinting and bad habits being taught to young men and women that read these at an impressionable age. Best to chip away and make progress with the change. It won't happen overnight - which is good and bad - but it is happening. For every flareup like the Spider-woman cover, we get a lot of great books that are smart, well illustrated and without the heavy fanservice while still being sexy and appealing where it should be. I'm looking forward to the Spider-woman book itself because of what Dennis Hopeless is bringing to it, though I'm wary of the Greg Land artwork.

[LittleBlue]

65. And if those people prefer comic books the way they are

they are to be force-fed something they don't want?

Can't adults make their own decisions?

[Blue_Adept]

68. Then they'll get them.

Nobody is saying there won't be books like this. But comics have changed incredibly over the last 50 years in so many ways that even as much as fans go on about the constantness of it all, it's really not all that constant. Story and art has evolved incredibly and will continue to do so.

This is one of those evolving moments. Not all of it will, but larger chunks of it will.

[LittleBlue]

70. Agreed. It happened in Japan

Shojo is a very popular alternative to shonen. Maybe there are already genres for girls in the US and I have just never seen them.

[Blue_Adept]

73. Such a different market there

Comics and animation were never stigmatized for the most part and there are comics for all groups, from corporate owners to golfers and everything all over the map.

The bigger thing is the accessibility of it all there. You can get the massive weekly tomes of the manga at the train stations easily and dispose/recycle them there as well. Kids have easy access to an entire compiled volume of work, average of 200 pages, for about 4 bucks equivalent. Which is what fans here would pay for a single 32 page issue.

The manga boom here in the last decade went well for bookstores with girls being huge in being drawn into it. The sad part is that when they went to comic book stores - which didn't carry much manga - a lot (but not all by any means) of stores and customers there were hugely dismissive, rude and crude towards this new potential audience.

There's sadly not a lot of crossover between the two types of fans (manga/comics) as they tend to stay in their respective mediums.

[Marr]

93. That's too bad.

The manga section at my local comic store has grown and grown over the last 5-10 years, and forced them remodel a bit and stop carrying back issues of western comics. I was really blown away by the variety in Japanese stuff. After a decade of darkity dark American stuff, a Kosuke Fujishima about nothing but building a motorcycle for a high school race was pretty refreshing.

[Blue_Adept]

94. Definitely!

I've been into manga since the 80's when Dark Horse started bringing out the Masamune Shirow stuff with Appleseed and then Viz Media getting into it. Sadly, I lost about $10k worth of books in a flood a few years ago.

[Marr]

104. Oh man, that's too bad.

This is somewhat unrelated, but have you watched the Ghost Stories series? Not the second version with an actual accurate translation, but the first one, where the American voice actors just sort of wing it? Funniest thing I've seen in years.

&list=PLfjOfxTx984kT4VsOE5aa08pD4fPqXjQS&index=2

[Blue_Adept]

105. Yup!

That whole thing was quite the controversy when it happened. I'm still iffy on it since I prefer accurate translations, but they had a blast with it, as dated as a lot of it feels now.

[LisaLynne]

74. I don't think anybody is talking about force-feeding anybody anything.

The thing is a creative site like the one being discussed here can raise awareness. Maybe there are some artists out there who will see this and be like, "Hey, I didn't realize I was doing this. Maybe I should look at things differently." Art is about doing new things, not just falling into the traps of doing the same things over and over, just because that's the way it's been done. It's about looking at things in new ways.

[Blue_Adept]

76. Exactly

And comics, like a lot of art, can be fairly cyclical as well. Looking at the changes in comic art over the past 75 years shows some really amazing things about culture. We're just moving into the next phase here, and this one is feeling like it's coming on harder because it's more exposed to the world that's more connected now and because of social media.

And because a lot of women and a good number of men are also making it clear that things must change.

[LittleBlue]

80. You don't think that criticism will impact the freedom of the artist?

On the other hand, artists may feel less free to express themselves for fear of being attacked like the Spiderwoman artist was.

[LisaLynne]

81. Artists aren't and shouldn't be criticized? nt

[LittleBlue]

82. Big difference between criticism

and a political group pressuring artists to change their artwork to avoid offending.

[LisaLynne]

83. The artists have a right to continue to portray women in that manner and I ...

have the right to continue to not like it and point it out.

[LittleBlue]

84. Of course you do. Just recognize the difference in these two arguments

1) I don't like the colors/lines
A criticism of the art

2) The artist is sexist, his/her portrayal is too sexual
A technique used to pressure them to change their work to avoid offending. Until modern times it had been used to ban art.

I see a difference.

[hifiguy]

91. As does every thinking person.

[edhopper]

66. The age and gender of comic book readers

is far broader than teenage fanboys.

In fact the majority of readers are adults.

[LittleBlue]

67. Then it looks like

more than just boys prefer the sexualized portrayals. Hard to see why we should politicize the taste of adults.

Good to know

[edhopper]

69. Most likely

A recent survey by DC showed over 90% were both male and over 18.

[LisaLynne]

71. But would that be different if comics were different?

I was way into comics as a teen and I always liked that there were actual female characters who had powers and did stuff, right along with the guys. That was (and sadly still is) pretty rare out there in the realms of fiction. However, I can totally see how there would be many, many women and girls who would look at the way women are drawn and conclude that this is not intended for them, which I think is a shame.

[Blue_Adept]

75. It's instructive to look elsewhere for that to some degree

As talked a bit elsewhere in the thread, Japan is an interesting (if somewhat unique) market where there's huge markets designed for women from comics aimed at girls of all ages and then a lot of women's books in the josei genre that are really fantastic reads that tackle a lot of subjects. It can be done, but there's so many other issues to be tackled that are connected here that I don't see it happening easily because it's about cost and accessibility.

[LisaLynne]

78. I think that's true and ...

also that basically, since we're talking about a for-profit industry, as long as they are making money, why change? I do sort of wonder if things will change since online comics are becoming more popular and doable. In that case, the cost of producing a physical item is taken away, perhaps loosening things up for more experimentation.

[edhopper]

87. There are many comics that appeal to

women/girls, they just aren't published by the big two superhero companies.

Japanese Manga is one genre with a big female readership.

The numbers aren't easy to come by, but a couple of surveys showed female readership at 35% to 40%.

Women and Comics

While we lack accurate data on comic readership, women DO read comic books

According to a Facebook scan done by Brett Schenker, women make up about 40 percent of the self-identified comic-reading population in the United States.[8]
Comic book store Comicopia employees estimate that 35 to 40 percent of their customers are female.[9]
When the proportion of female creators for DC Comics plunged from 12 percent to 1 percent in 2011, women and their supporters helped convince DC Comics to hire more female creators.[10]

http://www.geekgirlcon.com/media/facts-about-geek-girls/

[hifiguy]

97. Comics aren't just Marvel and DC superhero books anymore

and haven't been for a long time.

A guy who has been one of my best friends in the world for more than thirty years is the sales VP at IDW Publishing, the #4 comics/graphic novel publisher. Their biggest comic hit of the last couple of years? The spinoff comic from the hit animated series My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic. And IDW also publishes series featuring mega-popular franchises like GI Joe and the Transformers.

Why was MLP:FiM such a big hit, with some issues outselling all other comics in a given month? The show's appeal to older fans (teenagers and up into the middle-age bracket) of both genders. IOW, the brony community. Of which I am a proud part; in fact I am wearing a Princess Luna button on my shirt as I type this. Once a nerd, always a nerd.

[edhopper]

103. Yes this

there are many comics based on popular shows, movies, cartoons that have a wide appeal.

[edhopper]

117. This is apropos to this thread

and pretty funny too.

[video]

[/video]

[G_j]

56. K&R

[Blue_Adept]

79. For those looking to talk a little more about comics

I kicked off a recommendation thread here to try and help introduce people to new series:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1018657912

[Tuesday Afternoon]

96. fyi =

The Lounge is a Forum.

Only Groups may attain a safe haven status.

If I recall correctly, Safe Haven status must be written into the SoP for that group.

[hughee99]

116. So were the pictures from The Hawkeye Initiative supposed to make me feel uncomfortable?

If that was the artists were shooting for, I don't think it worked.

[hifiguy]

119. Some of the poses are kinda dopey

but well within the conventions of superhero art. The first thing I thought of when I saw BOTH of the Hawkeye/BW covers was the gymnastics in "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon."

[opiate69]

120. And actually, in the very first picture...

It wouldn't be nearly as dopey if they hadn't given him that ridiculous facial expression... very subtle, but no less disingenuous, manipulation.

[hifiguy]

121. Very true.

Wonder Woman looks like she is gonna tear someone's head off or blow them to smithereens. I knw I sure as hell wouldn't mess with her. Hawkeye is campily mugging for the camera.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

135. Apparently, yes

A cartoon posted in the OP even said so. I mean, THEY SAID SO!!!!

[hughee99]

142. I get that I don't understand the "background radiation" of a girl or woman's life,

but when someone shows something like this that's supposed to be a good example of "turning the tables", and I still don't see it, in my eyes, it hurts, rather than helps the argument.

The Wonder Woman example wasn't very good because the 2 poses really, in no way, resembled each other in art quality or much else. The other example, where the pictures were much closer in style and quality, looked just fine both ways to me.

It's not my intention to dismiss the concerns that some people have with the artwork, but given the examples above, I still don't see it. I don't know, maybe better examples might help make a clearer argument.

When looking at the pictures I've seen, I've wondered why the covers of Vogue and Cosmo picture women, often in "sexualized" positions, since they're magazines that target women and why would any woman buy a magazine with a picture on the cover that makes them uncomfortable.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

143. It shouldn't go unnoticed that they used the fat bald neckbeard comic book guy stereotype....

....to argue the point, either. Writers and artists absolutely reveal their inner thoughts and feelings....warts and all, once they get going. That's true for the Marvel artist of Spider-Woman and the artist of the rather broad attempt at "satire" in the OP.

[justiceischeap]

144. I think what they were going for is ridiculous

Do the male heroes look ridiculous in the poses and clothing that female heroines and villains are drawn in. The answer is yes, so why do that to the female characters?

[hughee99]

145. In the Hawkeye/Black Widow, I didn't think either the original or the redone version

looked ridiculous. In the Wonder Woman picture, the guy did look a little silly in comparison to the original, which it looked nothing like. I think WW in a similar pose with the same "artistry" would probably look similarly silly.

[Ilpavision]

146. Fail

Such fail. Some of the guy versions look pretty hot to me. Also hardly clever, people have been drawing to this exact concept for many years.

[uppityperson]

147. mark to read later

[Nye Bevan]

148. K&R