Neither selfish nor cowardly

[madamesilverspurs]

Last edited Tue Aug 12, 2014, 09:20 PM - Edit history (1)

[MADem]

1. It's also "not OK." IMO.

That poster concerns me. Why?

Because, even if not intentional, it appears, to my eye, to give people suffering profound depression "permmission" to kill themselves.

YMMV, but that is how it hits me--like "Oh well, he killed himself--no one bothered to tell him that his family would be hurt unbearably if he did that, because that would be, like, calling him SELFISH....and no one bothered to tell him that he needed to confront his issues, because, ya know, that would be like calling him COWARDLY....so hey, man, let it be..."

I don't like that poster at all--it may not be intentional, but it looks like it's permission for people to abdicate trying to help someone who is suicidal. Hey, why bother? Their pain is "too deep" and "too profound" for you "ordinary" types to know. You can't judge it, so butt out!!!

That may not--and probably is not--the intention of the little poster, but that is how it is hitting me. My back is up reading it, I don't like it at all.

[jeff47]

9. People suffering from depression do not need permission.

They aren't holding on because suicide is "not OK". Or because it would hurt someone.

When you're that depressed, you think your existence is hurting your loved ones. This thread does a good job of getting inside the head of someone with depression.

It is extremely difficult to really understand what someone with severe depression is feeling and thinking if you have never battled it yourself. As a result, the "normal" people aren't nearly as much help as they could be. After all, even the name "depression" is not a good description of the condition. "Normal" people construct a mental framework that is wrong, and then act according to that framework. This poster is an attempt to get "normal" people to realize their framework is wrong instead.

As an example, "normal" people keep emphasizing "you are not alone". The problem isn't loneliness. The problem is loathing - self-loathing. If you want to help someone who is suicidal, don't tell them "you are not alone". That just emphasizes the pain they are causing others.

Instead, tell them "you are wonderful".

[MADem]

11. Well, people around them are being given "permission" to not intervene by the words on that

poster, IMO. My "not OK" had to do with the people AROUND the depressed individual.

I think it's too easy to find excuses for inaction than find reasons to be proactive. And sometimes you have to hurt a few feelings to get to the heart of the matter.

We now learn that Mr. Williams, who of course generated this thread through his death, was having serious financial difficulties. He was not a "normal" person by anyone's measure--he was a creative genius and a troubled one, too. If his ex-wives had gotten together and said, "Hey, we'll take a cut in our 'dole' until you get back on your feet," or if his kids had said "Hey, paw, cut into our trust funds, it's OK..." or if he'd rented out that Napa mansion to generate a little income instead of trying to sell it right now, maybe he wouldn't have felt so alone. But clearly, he DID feel alone, and there were causes for his depression that went beyond just his brain chemistry. It was precipitated by financial ills and the fact that his source of income, his tv show, was cancelled. People KNEW he was having trouble with these things. They didn't offer pragmatic help. Maybe the best thing anyone could have done was given him a ride to the hospital. Or an interest free, pay-it[back-when-you-can, loan.

[jeff47]

12. Thanks for demonstrating you are utterly failing to understand

or if he'd rented out that Napa mansion to generate a little income instead of trying to sell it right now, maybe he wouldn't have felt so alone. But clearly, he DID feel alone, and there were causes for his depression that went beyond just his brain chemistry.

May no one you care about ever become suicidal. Because you will utterly fail to help them.

I suppose I could just copy-n-paste my last three paragraphs. Maybe this time you'll read them.

It is extremely difficult to really understand what someone with severe depression is feeling and thinking if you have never battled it yourself. As a result, the "normal" people aren't nearly as much help as they could be. After all, even the name "depression" is not a good description of the condition. "Normal" people construct a mental framework that is wrong, and then act according to that framework. This poster is an attempt to get "normal" people to realize their framework is wrong instead.

As an example, "normal" people keep emphasizing "you are not alone". The problem isn't loneliness. The problem is loathing - self-loathing. If you want to help someone who is suicidal, don't tell them "you are not alone". That just emphasizes the pain they are causing others.

Instead, tell them "you are wonderful".

[pinboy3niner]

14. Just stop and take like 10 really deep breaths

I hear that works wonders!

[MADem]

15. Oi vey!

I think I'd rather have the interest free loan and the ride to the hospital!

[uppityperson]

17. Words fail me. I am trying to wite a civil response to assumptions based on tabloid rumors

Mr. Williams had dealt with clinical depression for a long time, I read an interview by him over 20 years ago talking about it.

To assume his friends and family were so uncaring to drive him to finally end his pain, based on "financial woes" which is found only in tabloids (unless you have a reputable link, I could not find one) is really reaching.

[GeorgeGist]

2. Major typo.

[madamesilverspurs]

5. thx

[YouYou1]

3. The act of suicide; the acting out.

It's always an option, I guess, but humanely stated you pass the pain onto others. Yes, likely it seems like it would just 'fix' you. Or fix someone else, or others. Yes you'll likely be relieved...who knows. Not a 'nice' thing to do to others, but some people just must. They can't, and/or someone around them just doesn't really recognize potential symptoms. We all die anyway but not really supposed to be 'our' choice however f-ked up you feel. Sometimes if you just stop and take like 10 really deep breaths your body can force your mind to sort of hang on this too shall pass thing.

[Demit]

4. Why is it not supposed to be our choice?

[pinboy3niner]

6. Demonstrates profound ignorance about major depression

There's no excuse for not consulting some of the excellent information available before advising to "just stop and take like 10 really deep breaths."

[progressoid]

7. +1

[Skittles]

8. yup, they really, really DO.NOT.GET.IT.

they're lucky but damn they do like to talk

[jeff47]

10. You really don't understand.

Try this thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025374945

It might help you start learning a little more what depression really is like.

[bluesbassman]

16. "Acting out"? Wow.

That's damn near as bad as calling a suicide victim "weak" or "a coward".
I have no idea what your personal history is, but based on that statement alone I would suggest you do some serious research on depression as you appear woefully uninformed. Wow.

[uppityperson]

18. Think of clinical depression as cancer. Would you say all that to someone chosing to not

do chemotherapy? They are acting out, not chosing to continue to painfully fight their disease, not thinking od the pain they will cause their family?