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Wed Jul 30, 2014, 03:34 PM

Why do Americans tolerate letting Israel dictate our Israel policy?

I can understand the various possible motivations of politicians, from campaign donations, to fear of others getting those donations, to hypothetical strategic interests, but why do average Americans tolerate it, especially when a lot of our politicians say we can't question what Israel does?

Especially the righties normally freak out about any hint of the US being anything less than the owner of the world and god forbid if we recognize any authority like the UN, which would somehow compromise our sovereignty.

Given that, why do Americans seem blase about a tiny country leading us around by the nose and using money we give them to do things that incite acts of terrorism against us?

Is it just that most people only see things exactly the way they are told to, so if the MSM and right wing media agree, they accept it without question?

And by the way, I would be glad to solve the Israel/Palestine problem by allowing all of one side or the other to immigrate to the US, so I don't ask this out of animus toward Israel.

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Arrow 56 replies Author Time Post
Reply Why do Americans tolerate letting Israel dictate our Israel policy? (Original post)
yurbud Jul 2014 OP
atreides1 Jul 2014 #1
Guy Whitey Corngood Jul 2014 #6
hifiguy Jul 2014 #2
el_bryanto Jul 2014 #3
yurbud Jul 2014 #7
Babel_17 Jul 2014 #35
misterhighwasted Jul 2014 #4
Cali_Democrat Jul 2014 #14
misterhighwasted Jul 2014 #31
misterhighwasted Jul 2014 #32
Cali_Democrat Jul 2014 #34
COLGATE4 Jul 2014 #38
MineralMan Jul 2014 #5
yurbud Jul 2014 #8
MineralMan Jul 2014 #11
upaloopa Jul 2014 #15
yurbud Jul 2014 #16
MineralMan Jul 2014 #17
yurbud Jul 2014 #39
yurbud Jul 2014 #45
yurbud Jul 2014 #43
HooptieWagon Jul 2014 #20
upaloopa Jul 2014 #9
closeupready Jul 2014 #10
yurbud Jul 2014 #54
La Lioness Priyanka Jul 2014 #12
m-lekktor Jul 2014 #24
Avalux Jul 2014 #13
SQUEE Jul 2014 #19
Avalux Jul 2014 #23
SQUEE Jul 2014 #25
Avalux Jul 2014 #33
Enrique Jul 2014 #18
KamaAina Jul 2014 #21
HooptieWagon Jul 2014 #22
Matrosov Jul 2014 #26
yurbud Jul 2014 #40
HereSince1628 Jul 2014 #46
4now Jul 2014 #27
BillZBubb Jul 2014 #28
Swede Atlanta Jul 2014 #29
oberliner Jul 2014 #49
countryjake Jul 2014 #50
ismnotwasm Jul 2014 #53
countryjake Jul 2014 #55
kcjohn1 Jul 2014 #30
yurbud Jul 2014 #42
tularetom Jul 2014 #36
yurbud Jul 2014 #41
randome Jul 2014 #37
Trillo Jul 2014 #44
countryjake Jul 2014 #47
yurbud Jul 2014 #48
fujiyama Jul 2014 #51
yurbud Jul 2014 #56
MisterP Jul 2014 #52

Response to yurbud (Original post)

Wed Jul 30, 2014, 03:36 PM

1. It's complicated

Or it's not complicated...it just depends on who you talk to!

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Response to atreides1 (Reply #1)

Wed Jul 30, 2014, 03:41 PM

6. It's simply complicated..... o complicatedly simple. nt

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Response to yurbud (Original post)

Wed Jul 30, 2014, 03:39 PM

2. I have been wondering this for decades.

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Response to yurbud (Original post)

Wed Jul 30, 2014, 03:39 PM

3. What gets my goat is that the range of debate is so narrow

At least in Washington D.C. The same kind of talk printed in left wing Israeli papers about the inhumanity of Israels actions would get an American politician branded as an anti-Semite and enemy of Israel.

Bryant

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #3)

Wed Jul 30, 2014, 03:41 PM

7. oh yeah--even the critic is Jewish themselves.

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #3)

Wed Jul 30, 2014, 05:52 PM

35. Good point, it makes me wonder

I think part of it could be because over there one's loyalty tends to be a given. By default you have skin in the game. So, it's again almost a given that objections to actions by the government are pragmatic (as well as about morality).

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Response to yurbud (Original post)

Wed Jul 30, 2014, 03:39 PM

4. I was told it is because Israel holds a great percent of the world wealth.

I asked this same question to a friend a few months ago.
This was his answer. I haven't researched it in any depth beyond that day.
Be interesting to know just why we are so beholding to Israel.
Where did the loyalty get its start?

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Response to misterhighwasted (Reply #4)

Wed Jul 30, 2014, 03:53 PM

14. Your friend doesn't know what he's talking about. nt

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Response to Cali_Democrat (Reply #14)

Wed Jul 30, 2014, 05:29 PM

31. Ha.well I've said those same words to him on several of our discussions, so I'll just leave it there

I don't doubt Israel holds wealth influence but I doubt it dictates US Policy

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Response to misterhighwasted (Reply #31)

Wed Jul 30, 2014, 05:33 PM

32. ..but then farther down to POST #30..may explain what my friend was referring to.

Money has to figure somewhere in the mix of it all.

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Response to misterhighwasted (Reply #31)

Wed Jul 30, 2014, 05:44 PM

34. The wealth of a nation is essentially determined by productive capacity (GDP)

It is factually inaccurate to say Israel controls a large percentage of the world's wealth.

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Response to misterhighwasted (Reply #4)

Wed Jul 30, 2014, 06:11 PM

38. Yep. They let you in on the 'secret' -

the world is really secretly controlled by the Rothschilds and the rest of their Jewish moneylenders (except for the handful of Illuminati). That's why the US supports Israel. You can research it
'more in depth' on WND.

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Response to yurbud (Original post)

Wed Jul 30, 2014, 03:41 PM

5. Our Israel Policy is unanimously supported by

Congress. The senate just passed a resolution to that effect by unanimous consent. Expecting that to change is expecting what will not occur. The United States was intimately involved in the creation of Israel after WWII, and we have not backed away from supporting that new state. Agree or disagree, that is the fact of the matter. The U.S. commitment to the survival of Israel is unlikely to change in the foreseeable future.

Do I agree with it? No. I have always felt that the United States should not be supplying arms or military aid to any nation or organization in that part of the world. But my opinion is not shared by our government, and is unlikely to be during my lifetime.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #5)

Wed Jul 30, 2014, 03:44 PM

8. supported is one thing, but allowing the appearance of letting Israel take the lead

is the mystery.

and why pols cower before Israel.

And I do understand the original argument for support of Israel: we felt bad about the Holocaust, BUT we didn't want to let all the Jewish refugees come here since we were barely out of the Depression.

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Response to yurbud (Reply #8)

Wed Jul 30, 2014, 03:47 PM

11. I'm not seeing Israel taking the lead.

I'm not seeing politicials "cower" as you do. You are seeing those things. The White House just condemned the Israeli attack on the UN School. There's a thread on that just now in GD. I believe you are incorrect in your assessment.

You may believe that Israel dictates policy to the United States. I think you are incorrect. It has been our policy all along to support Israel as a most-favored nation. Why that is can be discussed, but I believe you are wrong in your assessment.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #11)

Wed Jul 30, 2014, 03:56 PM

15. The condemnation says attack not the Israel attack

I think that is a part of the thread's discussion.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #11)

Wed Jul 30, 2014, 03:57 PM

16. Obama and Kerry to a lesser degree are taking the reins a bit more, but if it was any other

country, we wanted them to settle some business with a subject people and they wouldn't do it, we would make sure the politicians obstructing what we want left office one way or another.

Since we don't do that with Israel, our government either doesn't really want to settle things, or they are cowed by Israel for some reason.

The fact that it has been our policy for decades is obvious.

I'm more curious about the why and why the optics are different than other countries.

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Response to yurbud (Reply #16)

Wed Jul 30, 2014, 04:01 PM

17. If you're curious, you might read some history.

If you want to know why our policy is and has been what it is, read.

I don't have time to run through the history of the relationship between the U.S. and Israel on DU. There's plenty of material out there to help you understand it. The U.S. does attempt to influence Israeli policy, but does not dictate to Israel, nor does Israel dictate to the United States.

Most of the elected national leadership in this country thinks Israel's success and survival is important. They are considered an ally by this country. If you want to know why, you'll have to go and do a little (or a lot of) reading.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #17)

Wed Jul 30, 2014, 06:13 PM

39. I've done quite a bit of reading on it, and the minuses seem to nearly outweigh pluses

They have been our "bad cop" on the Middle East beat, but their treatment of Palestinians has earned us a lot of ill will in the neighborhood we wouldn't have gotten if we had delivered the same beating to neighboring countries ourselves.

There are plenty of other countries we dictate to, and even allies whose governments we have overthrown if they aren't compliant to our business interests.

So either our leaders are insincere in their efforts to make peace, or Israel is exerting some unique pressure.

I prefer to think it's insincerity on the part of our politicians since it's hard to believe "the lobby" has pressured and bamboozled so many politicians and presidents for so many decades.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #17)

Wed Jul 30, 2014, 06:40 PM

45. a lot of the stated reasons for policies are very different from the real ones

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #11)

Wed Jul 30, 2014, 06:23 PM

43. When they build new settlements even as we are trying to negotiate peace...

and our politicians don't take any action because of it, that looks a lot like cowering.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #5)

Wed Jul 30, 2014, 04:42 PM

20. And Congress is unanimously paid by AIPAC.

The entirety of our Israel/Palestine policy is dictated by special interest lobbyists and their deep pockets.

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Response to yurbud (Original post)

Wed Jul 30, 2014, 03:45 PM

9. I think a lot of the idea comes from the idea that

Israel is the "holy land" and we don't want the non Jews non Christians in control of the Holy Land. Even though it is also their holy land. It is a fucked up religion thing that we should get over!
People are killing each other over who they think their god favors and we take sides in this bull shit.

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Response to yurbud (Original post)

Wed Jul 30, 2014, 03:46 PM

10. Israel HELPS guide our foreign policy with respect to Israel,

just as every other foreign ally does (and each does so in a way that they'd like to steer that policy in their favor), but they don't 'dictate' it.

But as to why our policy can seem so lopsided, I suspect part of that is the value of the intelligence they help collect in order to secure our interests in the Middle East.

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Response to closeupready (Reply #10)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 01:01 PM

54. Helps? Let's compare how we treated France after they refused to join the Iraq War

With how we treat Israel when they undermine our efforts at resolving things by building more settlements or shooting some kid for throwing rocks.

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Response to yurbud (Original post)

Wed Jul 30, 2014, 03:47 PM

12. most Americans are not aware of the history of the creating of Israel

or really have much interest in the middle east, but they do have a pretty poor image of Islam, which is why they do not care very much to look into the Palestinian argument. By default, due in part to distaste for Islam, we are pro-Israel and don't really care that much who dictates our Israeli policy.

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Response to La Lioness Priyanka (Reply #12)

Wed Jul 30, 2014, 04:52 PM

24. i often see gays blindly support israel because it is "pro gay"

and palestinian muslims are antigay so that solves which side to support for them. they fall for the pinkwashing.


http://www.pinkwatchingisrael.com/

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Response to yurbud (Original post)

Wed Jul 30, 2014, 03:50 PM

13. Did you know there are thousands of American born Jews who volunteer for the Israeli Army?

The are Americans, but they will tell you their loyalties are with Israel. I found that very interesting.

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Response to Avalux (Reply #13)

Wed Jul 30, 2014, 04:39 PM

19. One can serve, and to say our "loyalty" are ONLY with Israel is not true.

Some serve in both nations militaries, and as things stand today, this is not a conflict of interest at all.

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Response to SQUEE (Reply #19)

Wed Jul 30, 2014, 04:48 PM

23. So you've served. Thanks for replying...

I watched an interview with several American Jews who have volunteered, and they outright stated their loyalties lie with Israel over the US, which is why they did it. I've pondered this, trying to understand this way of thinking. I guess I will never understand since I'm not Jewish, but I fail to understand how it cannot be a conflict of interest.

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Response to Avalux (Reply #23)

Wed Jul 30, 2014, 04:58 PM

25. I also came HOME

I felt a duty to my people, and my family there, it is complicated, but I am very American, and, to be honest, a terrible Jew, being an atheist and all, my "jewishness" is cultural and family oriented, not religious.

I also will admit to the terrible sin of enjoying being a soldier, and wanted to make a difference with the gifts I have available, in my case....they are martial in nature.

In a fight, my loyalties, as they are lie here, and if need be I would sadly, but determindly take up arms against the IDF. My country is flawed but I love her for what she gave my direct family after the Holocaust, and we have given back as well, I have uncles in Arlington from VietNam, and my father died from obvious Agent Orange exposure 30 years after.. we never regretted our sacrifices.

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Response to SQUEE (Reply #25)

Wed Jul 30, 2014, 05:39 PM

33. I appreciate your honesty....

and as I try to understand, I realize how complicated and emotional this is for so many. I will never stop hoping that somehow, human beings will shift and learn from our differences, even celebrate them, instead of fighting each other over them.

I also hope that someday, soldiers won't be necessary (sorry!).

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Response to yurbud (Original post)

Wed Jul 30, 2014, 04:07 PM

18. Israel is in some ways an extension of the U.S.

I've always been struck by the fact that people in such a distant country talk with American accents

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Response to Enrique (Reply #18)

Wed Jul 30, 2014, 04:44 PM

21. Many Israelis made aliyah (emigrated) from U.S. Jewish strongholds

like Brooklyn. Others, like Netanyahoo , were educated here.

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Response to Enrique (Reply #18)

Wed Jul 30, 2014, 04:46 PM

22. An extension... like the tail that wags the dog.

When Israel says "jump", our govt says "how high?" US pols are paid well for their blind support of Israel, even when its against our interests.

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Response to yurbud (Original post)

Wed Jul 30, 2014, 05:01 PM

26. Religion, culture, pragmatism, and guilt

Religion is one answer. Supporters of Israel see ours as a Judeo-Christian nation and therefore believe it is our duty to help our "Jewish brothers," especially in such a hostile part of the world. Interestingly, when you look back over the past 1500 years or so, Jews and Muslims were much more likely to be allies while Christians were more than happy to fight both.

Culture is another one. Israeli culture is generally far more Westernized than Arab culture, and this makes it easier for the average person to identify with Israelis than with Palestinians. Furthermore, the Palestinians have historically been allied with Hamas and other groups who like to engage in terrorist activities, which doesn't help their image among Americans.

Israel is also seen as one of the very few reliable allies in the region. Plus while Israel often does what it wants, there is an argument to be made that US support for Israel actually tempers their actions. I've seen several people make compelling cases that without the threat of the US withdrawing financial and political support, Israel probably would've engaged in many more military campaigns.

Lastly, there is guilt. Jews have traditionally not been treated very well, and like I said, Christians have often been the worst offenders. Then there is the Holocaust, and while the Jews weren't the only victims of that genocide, they bore the brunt of it, and many Americans feel we would be making a huge mistake if we left the Israeli Jews to fend for themselves. Hamas and others have not exactly made it a secret that the complete destruction of Israel is their ultimate goal.

At least that's my take on things, regardless of whether our support for Israel is ultimately good or bad.

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Response to Matrosov (Reply #26)

Wed Jul 30, 2014, 06:15 PM

40. the less foreign argument makes sense. Israel could not have engaged in the military operations

it has without our support diplomatically and with military equipment and money.

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Response to Matrosov (Reply #26)

Wed Jul 30, 2014, 06:41 PM

46. When you win, your side's terror organizations, i.e. the Irgun

are written out of terror histories and into the stories of the founding of a nation.

It isn't unique to Israel, it's the way things go.

The "Sons of Liberty" of the American revolution, were seen as terrorists by the British, and loyal patriots by young boomers watching Disney movies about them on Sunday evenings in the early 60's

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Response to yurbud (Original post)

Wed Jul 30, 2014, 05:02 PM

27. Older Americans were raised on an incredible amount of Israeli propaganda

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Response to yurbud (Original post)

Wed Jul 30, 2014, 05:09 PM

28. Most Americans simply don't care and the corporate media helps keep it that way.

Americans hear only one side of the argument. So, they don't see a problem.

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Response to yurbud (Original post)

Wed Jul 30, 2014, 05:12 PM

29. It is actually very simple...we are Israel's "bitch"

 

The world felt bad after millions of Jews were cooked in the Holocaust. So the U.N. created Israel out of whole cloth using land that had been inhabited, farmed, etc. by Arabs/ Palestinians for years.

When this happened Palestinians were thrown off their land and into camps (Jews shouldn't like the idea of camps since millions of their kind were put there by Hitler). The Palestinians languished with no jobs, no hope, no opportunity. A resistance movement grew into the PLO. Hamas is in many ways the progeny of the PLO.

Back to U.S. policy. In the heyday of the Cold War, Egypt was a Russian proxy. So we continuously saw Israel as our one ally in the region. We have always supported them, regardless of their bad acts, because of a genuine belief the Jewish people deserve a homeland and for purely selfish influence reasons.

This is augmented by a strong Jewish/Israeli lobby in Washington that owns pretty much everyone in Congress and all Presidents. Whatever Israel wants it gets. Americans are paying to kill Palestinian children. I hope you think that is a good use of your taxpayer dollars. I would rather that be spent on fixing some bridges and roads here.

Oh and don't forget that within the Republican party there is a "sincerely held religious belief" that once Israel rebuilds the illusive "temple" Jebus will come back and rapture up the earth.

That is their motivation for supporting the Jews killing innocent civilians in Gaza. Nothing complex about it.

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Response to Swede Atlanta (Reply #29)

Wed Jul 30, 2014, 07:45 PM

49. This is one hell of a doozy of a post

Disturbing in so many ways.

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Response to Swede Atlanta (Reply #29)

Wed Jul 30, 2014, 08:39 PM

50. "the Jews killing innocent civilians in Gaza"

Last edited Thu Jul 31, 2014, 06:47 PM - Edit history (1)


Can you get any more blatant?

My eyes have officially rolled out of my head reading what you've posted. Your words demonstrate both a simplistic and negligent knowledge of US Imperialism. And other, much more serious things.

(on edit)

Please please think about what you've said here, re-examine your words and try to grasp an understanding of how they are perceived. I read your signature line and have to wonder...what are you thinking?





Boycott, Divestment, Sanctions
Free Palestine!

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Response to Swede Atlanta (Reply #29)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 08:30 AM

53. What the fuck is this bullshit?

"Israel's "Bitch"? In addition, You obviously have a poor grasp on current events based on history and exactly what so you mean by "bitch"?

"Jews"??? "Hitler"??

"Jews killing innocent civilians"???

This is exactly what anti semitism looks like. Regardless of what's going on in Gaza.

I'm sure this post was alerted on and allowed to stand, but this is disgusting.

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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #53)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 04:06 PM

55. Careful, ismnotwasm.

You could be judged unfairly for calling it out. More than likely, actually.

Schmears of prejudice against an entire people are rationalized away, but sadly, it's risky to point them out.

Same as it ever was.

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Response to yurbud (Original post)

Wed Jul 30, 2014, 05:17 PM

30. Very Simple

Can't believe most people's naivety on this subject. It is very simple and the root of it as most things is the corruption in the political system. Most important factor for all politicians in their positions is MONEY.

1) AIPAC is very powerful and buys both parties. Going against this lobby is very dangerous for any politician especially when there is little to gain (not going principle which has no currency in DC). Most politicians stay quiet and avoid any attention, and being the lone voice would be suicidal.

2) Less known and talked about is rich Jewish donors on both political parties. Right wing are always for more war but the left's donor base consists of large Jewish faction who support Israel unconditionally even despite their liberal politics. As dem politician without this base + AIPAC attacks it is almost impossible to win local elections yet alone national election as most politicians aspire to.

You get rid if money in politics and Israel would become irrelevant to US policy

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Response to kcjohn1 (Reply #30)

Wed Jul 30, 2014, 06:19 PM

42. this would imply that rich Jews have different motivations from other rich people

most of the rich make donations to get politicians to give them even more money BACK.

How does the existence of Israel help any wealthy Americans, let alone wealthy Jews?

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Response to yurbud (Original post)

Wed Jul 30, 2014, 05:55 PM

36. It will take a couple more generations to change that

Right now the Holocaust is still relatively vivid in the minds of the people in policy making positions in most countries. The creation of Israel was a means for the world to collectively relieve its guilty conscience. As time passes and the memories of the horrors fade, there will be less and less tolerance for the war crimes perpetrated by right wing Israeli governments. Eventually, the world, including our creditors, will call bullshit on Israeli aggression and the US will be powerless to defend it, regardless of the influence on congress of the Israel lobby.

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Response to tularetom (Reply #36)

Wed Jul 30, 2014, 06:17 PM

41. there is something to that.

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Response to yurbud (Original post)

Wed Jul 30, 2014, 06:01 PM

37. Because it has something to do with religion.

Apparently anything goes when God is invoked.

Sometimes it seems like the only purpose in life is to keep your car from touching another's.

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Response to yurbud (Original post)

Wed Jul 30, 2014, 06:33 PM

44. I think the TV media is probably a very large reason.

Science has its downsides, and the ability to "market" and convince through the TV screen appears to be a big downside when only a few globally connected firms own essentially all the airwaves. Reading and researching on the Internet is a possible solution, but unfortunately it takes time, time that a lot of working folks simply don't have.

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Response to yurbud (Original post)

Wed Jul 30, 2014, 06:55 PM

47. All that average Americans hear is our MSM's propaganda...

so who can blame any of them for believing it? The USA has carefully crafted the dehumanization of Palestinians for many many decades, so that only a fearsome image of them prevails. They are the easiest people of the world to demonize simply because they are such a small population and if one happens to go berserk to seek revenge or justice, all Palestinians will be condemned for that action. And that's propaganda by our media, primarily, not Israel's. It's been that way throughout my entire life.

If you think that our government backs Israel because it's "a tiny country leading us around by the nose", you need to examine the importance that our own government places on any Middle East interests that we have in the region. We keep massive military provisions stored all over Israel, for our OWN use, if necessary, and the convenience of it's very location makes the nation an extension of the USA's military industrial complex.

The USA uses Israel as continuing protection of our own national security, not the other way around.

When I notice or hear others saying things like "Israel says jump, USA jumps", I immediately begin to wonder if there may be closeted bigotry or anti-semitism hidden behind such phrases. Normally, I'll simply chalk it up to naivety and a basic ignorance of the USA's history of imperialism, but the wariness remains in the back of my mind, and that feeling has been on red-alert this past month, as both Israel and the USA carry out this latest destruction and massacre of Occupied Palestine.

Boycott, Divestment, Sanctions
Free Palestine!

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Response to countryjake (Reply #47)

Wed Jul 30, 2014, 07:32 PM

48. I tend to think of the strategic value too, but again, that comes at a heavy price

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Response to yurbud (Original post)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 12:02 AM

51. It's a codependent relationship

Throughout the Cold War Israel did play a role as a proxy state in the region, counter to the Soviet backed Arab states. It was useful in terms of its strategic location and as a conduit for arms to other states in the region (Iran-Contra!). But aside from the Cold War geopolitics, Israel has historically seemed like a much less "foreign" country than the Arab states to the casual American viewer.

Culturally and religiously, Israel is more familiar to the average American than the Arab states. Most Christians, especially in the US are much more familiar with Judaism than Islam. Jews have been in the US since before the American Revolution. The US has also been seen historically as a haven for many Jews that were persecuted throughout Europe and Russia. Jews did face discrimination in the US, but in spite of that many were able to rise to prominence in government, academia, finance, the media, and the sciences. And of course some of them did play a crucial role in the Zionism movement. The Holocaust also made the cause more sympathetic and understandable - and there were great religious undertones for evangelical Christians as well, who in latter years especially have become very supportive of Israel. And it was mostly bipartisan. Jews were a crucial part of the New Deal coalition as well. So the state had unwavering support of Democrats, with only slightly less enthusiastic support of Republicans (Eisenhower did try reigning them and the French in during the Suez Canal conflict in the '50s). It was not really until GW. Bush that the GOP was viewed as the uber-pro Israeli party.

Yes, there has also been a fair amount of propaganda as well. The Israelis at first seemed like the underdog, fighting back against the entire Arab world.

US familiarity with Islam is much more recent, and the perception is much more negative. Much of the impression grew out of the Arab-Israeli conflict, during an era in which the PLO hijacked airplanes and went after other Western targets, including the Munich Olympics. Then there was the Iranian Revolution, which had a major impact on how Americans saw Islam. Following that there was The civil war in Lebanon (where American Marines were killed) and Libya Pan Am bombing, the First Gulf War (remember, Iraq had launched scuds into Israel at one point) and a whole bunch of other terrorist attacks culminating with 9/11, that to many, made Israel look even more like a victim of fundamentalists hell bent on destroying western civilization.

Israel, on the surface looks more like a European nation, where women in bikinis hang out at the beach and it has a parliament (remember, "They hate us for our freedoms!"). Granted all this hides the ugly and fundamental fact that the Israelis are an occupying power, controlling the territory and resources of the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza. The settlements have also expanded, which have made Israel less and less democratic as it rules over an increasingly repressed people. This is the ugly truth.

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Response to fujiyama (Reply #51)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 08:25 PM

56. good points all.

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Response to yurbud (Original post)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 12:10 AM

52. Melani McAlister says since '76 we've seen them as a proxy--someone that can do what we want to do

better than poor prostrate Murka

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