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Sat Apr 7, 2012, 07:24 AM

OK, so some of you jumped all over me yesterday after the horrible plane crash

because I had the temerity to state that in no time at all, the apologists for the military would be all over this story, changing facts and generally making shit up.

Well, guess what? I was not wrong...

Within minutes, Kyra Phillips on CNN stated that these two pilots were "heroes" because they tried to make it to the beach because, she added and I'm only slightly paraphrasing, all fighter pilots know that they must ditch over water or open territory so as not to hit areas which contain people and property (and oh yes, pets - musn't forget those). She apparrently has flown planes out of this "exact same runway" herself, and because the tail of the plane was horizontal, then blah blah blah, pilots doing an amazing job of not hitting a school.

First, how the Hell would she know what was going through their minds during the incident? She didn't interview them, she was just busy making excuses before she knew anything.

Second, the whole area is densely populated so if you crash on takeoff, you're gonna hit something civilian almost fer sure. Fair enough...I grew up near the Willow Grove Naval Air Station and we had some near misses and a couple incidents over the decades. It happens...but I have no recollection of the local news people making up stories a priori. what they USED to say was "The FAA and military investigators will have to investigate this incident." and leave it at that. They didn't make up plausible scenarios and state them as fact.

Third, and damn it, I KNOW I'm right about this: the lying-ass military-industrial complex is given a big pass even by those on Progressive Websites by those who think that they're all gung-ho-military such that you went after me when all I stated was that they were going to concoct a story, if they could, which would absolve the pilots if at all possible, reiterate that they do everything as safely as possible, and that if the pilots happened to be Republicans, then all the better - OK, that was a cynical remark, but not far off the center of truth. Those who have any kind of memory will recall the young lady who was the POW in Iraq rescued by a team whose exploits could have been portrayed in Marvel Comics. Turned out of course, that it was almost all BS. But that's OK...we need our stories of heroism and valor and since Audie Murphy's dead, and John Wayne was only a movie actor, then we have to come up with new ones for the new generation.

Fourth and finally, to those who typed out a knee-jerk response to my post: you might consider the bigger picture once in a while. It would do you some good - the fact of the matter was that all I really said was that I was awaiting the usual gabble-degook from the PR folk at the military and for that I was excoriated.

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Reply OK, so some of you jumped all over me yesterday after the horrible plane crash (Original post)
PCIntern Apr 2012 OP
brewens Apr 2012 #1
panzerfaust Apr 2012 #5
madokie Apr 2012 #8
treestar Apr 2012 #27
PavePusher Apr 2012 #29
onlyadream Apr 2012 #2
PCIntern Apr 2012 #3
Demit Apr 2012 #4
PCIntern Apr 2012 #12
izquierdista Apr 2012 #14
proud2BlibKansan Apr 2012 #6
quaker bill Apr 2012 #7
MadHound Apr 2012 #9
PCIntern Apr 2012 #11
MadHound Apr 2012 #15
PCIntern Apr 2012 #21
hack89 Apr 2012 #26
WilliamPitt Apr 2012 #28
atreides1 Apr 2012 #13
azmesa207 Apr 2012 #43
MADem Apr 2012 #51
Javaman Apr 2012 #10
MadHound Apr 2012 #16
Javaman Apr 2012 #56
trof Apr 2012 #17
MadHound Apr 2012 #18
Rex Apr 2012 #39
trof Apr 2012 #47
gateley Apr 2012 #20
Skittles Apr 2012 #50
gateley Apr 2012 #19
bvar22 Apr 2012 #22
gratuitous Apr 2012 #23
barbtries Apr 2012 #24
monmouth Apr 2012 #25
DevonRex Apr 2012 #30
1620rock Apr 2012 #31
PCIntern Apr 2012 #33
Air Marshal8 Apr 2012 #46
trof Apr 2012 #48
Egalitarian Thug Apr 2012 #32
PCIntern Apr 2012 #34
1620rock Apr 2012 #35
PCIntern Apr 2012 #36
MADem Apr 2012 #52
quinnox Apr 2012 #37
Make7 Apr 2012 #38
PCIntern Apr 2012 #40
whistler162 Apr 2012 #41
Air Marshal8 Apr 2012 #45
nadinbrzezinski Apr 2012 #42
PCIntern Apr 2012 #54
nadinbrzezinski Apr 2012 #55
Air Marshal8 Apr 2012 #44
Sherman A1 Apr 2012 #49
DesertDiamond Apr 2012 #53

Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 07:41 AM

1. It doesn't surprise me that Phillips came out with that "Great Santini" shit.

I'd like to know if avoiding "punching out" over populated areas is an official part of their training? I'm sure in a lot of cases it's not an option. If you don't have control, save yourself!

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Response to brewens (Reply #1)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 08:38 AM

5. "If you don't have control, save yourself!"

 

In my experience few pilots would agree with this statement.

Though I do think saving the (expensive) pilot is likely the military doctrine.

Friend of mine flying an F-111 took a migrating goose through his canopy. Aerodynamics immediately changed, severe buffeting, difficult to maintain control. Doctrine: Immediate eject.

As he prepared to do so, though he was not quite sure of exactly where he was (not uncommon) he realized that he was close to a major city and decided to try to ride it until he could eject in a less densely populated area.

As he fought the plane to a safe heading and came back on the power he realized that he could probably keep it in the air long enough to get back to base.

He did this, safely landed, and was immediately in trouble for not ejecting. One thing led to another but after going though a lot of crap, he was not disciplined.

However, he had had enough and shortly thereafter - though he had 12 years in - said to hell with the USAF.

He simply did what I, speaking as a pilot, think most pilots would do given the chance: Put the safety of unsuspecting people on the ground second to his own personal safety.

I have no idea of the circumstances of this F-18 crash beyond that it occurred on take-off: That flight segment where you have the fewest options.





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Response to panzerfaust (Reply #5)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 08:52 AM

8. If they had no control over the plane then get the fuck out, eject

Why add to the carnage by adding your own body to the list. If they could still control the plane then the ball game changes. If I understand it right they couldn't control the plane so they done the right thing, in my eyes. To help in correcting things such as this don't have so many lives living so close to the runways and cut back on the MIC. After all the MIC is a self preserving entity, are they not?

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Response to panzerfaust (Reply #5)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 11:35 AM

27. Why should they die if they had no control?

If would save no one and just add 2 deaths. It's like punishing them with death for ending up on a non-functioning plane.

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Response to panzerfaust (Reply #5)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 11:38 AM

29. "Put the safety of unsuspecting people on the ground second to his own personal safety."

 

Eerrrr.... I thnk you meant "Put the safety of unsuspecting people on the ground before his own personal safety.", yes?

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 07:43 AM

2. It's the 24/7 news cycle.

And this type of conjecture is done all the time.

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Response to onlyadream (Reply #2)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 07:45 AM

3. Doesn't make it right and she wasn't in 'conjecture' mode anyway...n/t

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 08:32 AM

4. Oh cry me a river. You're the one conjecturing.

You made it about political parties in your thread yesterday & then you took it back when you realized how stupid that was. So you think what Kyra Phillips said somehow exonerates you enough to start this second thread about it? Weak beer.

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Response to Demit (Reply #4)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 09:49 AM

12. the only reason I scaled back that post

as I stated in the edit yesterday, was to just give time to those who were gonna do what I said they were gonna do and they did and here I am again. Sorry for the "inconvenience".

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Response to PCIntern (Reply #12)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 10:04 AM

14. Why scale back?

 

You were proven right.

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 08:42 AM

6. Jessica Lynch? Was that her name?

The POW in Iraq. Pat Tilman was involved in that rescue. One of the more interesting parts of Krakauer's book.

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 08:44 AM

7. There is always a matter of timing.

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 09:01 AM

9. So basically you're disappointed that the pilots lived

 

That's what it sounds like to me.

Never mind that they followed Air Force procedure, and only bailed after it was obvious that they did everything they could to crash safely as possible. They didn't go down with their planes and that pisses you off.

Never mind that there were no civilian deaths.

Oh, and if you think that I'm an "apologist for the military" then you seriously need to do some digging in the archives.

But I do recognize what SOP's are in the military, since I have a fair amount of military in my family, including fighter pilots.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #9)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 09:46 AM

11. The you better get your ears checked...

'cause the sounds ain't making any sense...

No...my point WAS, and listen carefully, so you don't miss it again, that it wasn't going to take long for the Boys to start the disinformation campaign...the FACTS have yet to come out. The POINT was...still listening?...that CNN started making excuses for HITTING AN APARTMENT BUILDING without knowing whether the plane was unresponsive, or there was no choice but to do so, or the pilots just got the Hell outa there, or ANYTHING. Phillips called the pilots "HEROES"...OK....maybe they are, maybe they aren't. It would seem to me that a news organization should try to gather info FIRST...rather than to decide what happened.

Maybe you don't remember "Three shots fired in Dallas..." it was forever "Three shots" EVEN THOUGH MANY MANY EYEWITNESSES AND EARWITNESSES heard more than three without question.

You have fighter pilots in your family? Perhaps they will want to post here and discuss this.

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Response to PCIntern (Reply #11)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 10:11 AM

15. Yes, all the facts have yet to come out,

 

Yet you're jumping to conclusions already, and have been since this news came in yesterday.

Perhaps you've become that which you hate, a person who jumps to conclusions without all the facts

Witnesses state that their were flames coming out of at least one engine. Fire starts to mess with various controls, rather quickly. Which means that in a matter of seconds the plane can be unresponsive.

So what do you want the pilots to do, stay in the plane?

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Response to MadHound (Reply #15)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 10:43 AM

21. OK, one more time with feeling...

The pilots ejected and the plane hit an apartment building. I would hazard a guess that if it were YOUR apartment building, or that in which your family member lived, you'd be a mite perturbed about this incident, and would want to hear the facts about the case in toto. I for one, would be concerned that those facts might or might not ever make it to the Public-at-large, but Hey, it's the military and shit happens when you deal with weapons of war. As I stated before, the Willow Grove, PA runways were not all that far from my home when I was very young and we lived with the possibilities that things might happen, and we hoped that they didn't for all concerned.

My point, and I'll say it again, was that rather than awaiting an investigation, in the immediate aftermath of this fairly horrific incident, it didn't take long for the story to be rewritten so as to exonerate, at least partially, the people who caused it directly. Somehow, there's going to be a mix of military heroism, Blessedness of God that people weren't killed, A FACT WHICH WAS UNKNOWN AT THE TIME in which Ms. Phillips was waxing poetic about the skill of the pilots, and then a general quietude for a number of months, and then the Official Report.

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Response to PCIntern (Reply #21)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 11:34 AM

26. You didn't wait for an investigation to smear the pilots.

sounds pretty hypocritical to me.

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Response to PCIntern (Reply #21)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 11:37 AM

28. "the people who caused it directly"

You mean the people who built the thing? It stalled out on takeoff.

I'm confused.

When a car's brakes fail, are you in the habit of blaming the driver?

Machines break. The ones that fly fall to the ground when they break.

But yeah, I get you, it's terrible we have fighter planes at all.

Or something.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #9)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 10:02 AM

13. I don't think so

But you're entitled to your opinions.

They wouldn't follow Air Force flight procedures, mainly because the f-18 is Navy/Marine jet...and we don't know if they did everything they could!

It's fortunate that there were no casualties on the ground, but a few years ago in California that wasn't the case...and that pilot was already near the water but decided to try to land at an airfield inland.

There are many things that may have played a part in this crash...a mechanical failure, the pilots hotdogging, pencil maintenance done by the ground crew, etc.

But the media is already sounding the trumpets of how heroic the pilots were, and that's become common when the military is involved, even the situation with SSG Bales, the media was all over his home town listening to people say what a wonderful guy he was...yet when it came out that there was a civil judgement aganst him for basically ripping off an elderly couple, the same media put in a small blurb.

My point is we'll never know the truth, the military with aid from the media is already in PR mode.

I served in the military and understand that there are SOP's, regulations and procedures...and while it's easy to follow the rules when you're not in a situation...that ease flies right out the window when you're put to the test.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #9)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 04:38 PM

43. Madhound

These were two Navy pilots not Air force big difference as the Navy pilots are the best.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #9)

Sun Apr 8, 2012, 12:26 AM

51. I hope they didn't follow Air Force procedure!

That was a Navy plane, and that was a Navy Instructor Pilot with a Navy student pilot!

They had problem on top of problem almost immediately--they ejected very close to the ground (which is why they ended up so close to the wreckage).

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 09:31 AM

10. I'm always amused by the railing against the MIC here on DU, but then...

the defending of it's actions in situations as this crash.

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Response to Javaman (Reply #10)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 10:13 AM

16. Ah, so we're not pure unless we're pissed that the pilots didn't die? n/t

 

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Response to MadHound (Reply #16)

Sun Apr 8, 2012, 08:03 PM

56. you cherry picked a lot from my comment.

bless your heart.

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 10:15 AM

17. Won't jump ON you, I'll jump in WITH you.

Drives me up the wall when people with little or no knowledge of a situation, speculate on it on national TV.
Or anywhere else, for that matter.

"COULD have been this..."
"COULD have been that..."
"POSSIBLY it was..."


I'm a pilot and I've flown fighters, but I have very little knowledge of the FA-18 and would never speculate on what happened. The military accident investigators are generally very good at what they do.
It's in their best interest and those of other pilots flying that type of aircraft to do everything they can to find out exactly what happened.

Most accurate information will probably come from debriefing the two pilots involved.

And what about this headline I found this morning of various news headlines websites: "Massive (or 'Catastrophic') Mechanical Failure resulted in crash"...?
Attributed to someone (not identified) at Norfolk NAS.
How could they possibly know that right now?
(It was the NY Daily News ), but other papers picked it up.
Are they just making this crap up?
jeez

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Response to trof (Reply #17)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 10:21 AM

18. Well, considering that witnesses saw flames coming out of at least one engine

 

I would say that "catastrophic engine failure" is a pretty good bet.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #18)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 02:39 PM

39. +1

nt.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #18)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 05:33 PM

47. Couple of things: 1. Flame could have been afterburner.

I wasn't there and don't know, but that's a possible explanation of flames.

And 2. The headline I read made no mention of "engine" failure.
It said "Mechanical failure".
Granted, engine failure could, by definition, also be called a mechanical failure.
But pilots would usually differentiate between a mechanical failure (airframe, control surfaces, etc.) and an engine failure.
Also, if the failure involved electrical, hydraulics, fuel, whatever, it would normally be referred to as a 'systems' failure.

I mean no disrespect, but I place little faith in any non-pilot civilian's description of what happened.
Here's a good example:
A friend punched out of an F-84 (single engine fighter) following total engine failure shortly after take-off. No fire, the engine just started throwing turbine blades and came apart.
The plane crashed in a river in a wooded area.
My friend survived with a few bruises.

A local TV station interviewed an eyewitness.
"I seen it. The airplane was on fire. Two guys bailed out, and one of 'em was hangin' on to the other one by a rope. He had an orange outfit on."

There was never any fire. The pilot said there was no fire.
The plane was recovered from the river and there was no evidence at all of fire.
The 'second guy' in orange hanging on by a rope was, in fact, the orange raft attached by a long nylon lanyard to the pilot's survival seat pack.


And I have to wonder if anyone at the NAS actually gave the quote the paper claimed.

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Response to trof (Reply #17)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 10:30 AM

20. I heard/saw a Navy spokesperson on TV saying that the fuel leaking (gushing?) led them

to consider a massive mechanical failure. So that's where they got that from, probably.

And that seems reasonable. If the jet just crashed -- up in the air one minute, down on the ground the next -- I'm assuming they would have said 'we won't know until we investigate', but that that the fuel was an indication to them.

Give them a break, they HAVE to report the news and they're doing the best they can with constantly changing information. I think they do a good job in always adding "this has not been confirmed" or "this is not official" or whatever.

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Response to trof (Reply #17)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 09:48 PM

50. THANK YOU

I worked USAF Personal Affairs office in the CBPO - it covered crashes - the facts take quite some time

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 10:24 AM

19. I wouldn't necessarily assume Kyra Phillips is a military apologist (although she may very well

be for all I know), but just rather that she was "reporting" stuff that was actually just her opinion. Like they do -- and shouldn't -- all the time.

But other than Kyra, was anybody else -- military included -- crowing about the heroic efforts and amazing feat of missing the school?

I generally agree that the military will put the best spin on things like this (lie if it can) but I didn't see hit happen in this instance. I think it happened too quickly, with too many witnesses, and the facts seem to bear out that it was a major mechanical catastrophe rather than pilot error. And to my recollection, none of the reporters I heard made up stories a priori, but actually reported the facts, and acknowledgment of their lack of facts, pretty accurately.

Maybe in this case you should consider the source of your self-vindication -- Kyra Phillips.

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 10:54 AM

22. In the "old days",

...it was possible to wrestle with a damaged aircraft.
Today's modern jets are fly by wire, computer controlled, inherently unstable, and fast.

While I believe that pointing a damaged aircraft toward an unpopulated area is always a concern for any pilot before ejecting,
there is very little the pilot of a modern fighter can do when things start to go bad beyong GTFO (Get-the-f**k-out),
especially at low altitude.

Did anyone else notice the jet nozzles in the photo of the tail section?
One was wide open, and the other was full closed.
While that could have happened during the crash, to me it indicates a power failure on one engine
which is always a bad thing on take off.

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 11:04 AM

23. Now let that be a lesson to you

Say heretical things, and the devotees of our national religion, the High Church of Redemptive Violence, will be all over you. Every one in uniform is a hero (until they aren't), every relic of the High Church (every gun, rifle, bullet, missile, aircraft carrier, F-15, bayonet, and so forth) is imbued with a sacredness that you can't begin to comprehend. The people who had their homes destroyed will soon be joining the chorus of Good Friday hosannas that they were so favored as to have been touched by the hand of their great god Violence.

Our next hymn is number 354, "Praise Holy Violence for the Freedom It Bestows." Like you mean it!

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 11:07 AM

24. i didn't see that thread

but i find little if anything you state here to be wrong.

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 11:33 AM

25. I turned on the tv when the Navy spokesperson was giving his spin. That is exactly what it was

and the first thing that came to mind was he had a future in politics. The spin was almost laughable even before the inspection(s) are completed. I've become very cynical these days and believe little or nothing coming from these "authorities."

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 11:51 AM

30. I didn't jump on you. I know that area well.

And I know procedure well. I also know there is no way in fucking hell they could have known so quickly what had happened.

If people would just think how long it took to find out what actually happened in any air disaster in recent memory, they'd know that PR damage control was in full swing immediately. That's assuming it was mechanical rather than pilot error.

Not accusing the pilots of anything. I'm just saying that what was put out yesterday by CNN was PR. I'm happy the pilots survived and I'm sorry for the loss of life on the ground.

PCI, your questions were valid given the area. We will see if further details are forthcoming. I doubt they will be. If there was pilot error, the only way we would know is perhaps a change in the type of aircraft the pilots fly. So, a quiet transfer for training somewhere else.

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 12:48 PM

31. Well it seems today that by the grace of God, or sheer luck (take your choice)...

...no one on the ground was killed or even seriously injured. Yet it's too bad the pilots didn't die because they are associated with the MIC?

I flew for eight years in the USAF and ANY pilot would sacrifice himself to prevent casualties on the ground IF there was any way to do that. If there is NOTHING he can do, then punch out.

This isn't 1900 when the captain must go down with the ship as a matter of honor

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Response to 1620rock (Reply #31)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 01:05 PM

33. Wow! i didn't know we had all these fighter pilots here on DU!

Some must have higher powers of intellect than I, because I can't find where I said that the pilots should die. Can you please help me with this, since in no place did I state or intimate that they should die. what I DID say was that the media were going to pump the meme that there was nothing that the pilots could have done to prevent this EVEN BEFORE there was any kind of investigation, among other predictable memes.

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Response to PCIntern (Reply #33)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 05:11 PM

46. Which proves you know nothing whatsoever about airplanes OR pilots.

 

Every pilot wants to avoid crashing into people, and will do anything humanly possible to
avoid it, even if only it's because they know they're the first ones to hit.
jeezus....

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Response to 1620rock (Reply #31)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 05:49 PM

48. Sorry, bud. I wouldn't 'scarifice' myself.

I flew single engine fighters for 7 years.
Out of a semi-major regional civilian airport.
Our engine failure procedure (unless it happened on short final) was to punch.
The F-84 glided like a brick.

Sure, if I had the opportunity to point it toward an unpopulated area and then punch, I would.
The one time I thought I might have to, I was out in the boonies anyway.

But my sense of self preservation is much stronger than my altruistic tendencies.
I'm in serious danger, and I'm scared shitless, and I want AWAY FROM THIS!

Yeah, maybe I'll feel bad about it later.
Probably I would.
But I'll still be around to feel.
OK, I'm an asshole, but that's the way it is.

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 01:00 PM

32. Lost cause. The military has been elevated beyond sacrosanct to become

 

a fetish in America. We will brook no criticism or question of our brave fighting men and women holding the walls against the barbarian hordes.

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 01:08 PM

34. BTW, I once flew 747's AND the Space Shuttle simultaneously

using a complex joystick derived from popsicle sticks and rubber cement with frozen concentrated orange juice cans and a coat-hanger antenna. Really.

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Response to PCIntern (Reply #34)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 01:26 PM

35. Welcome to ignore.

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Response to 1620rock (Reply #35)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 01:42 PM

36. It's an honor, believe me. n/t

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Response to PCIntern (Reply #34)

Sun Apr 8, 2012, 12:32 AM

52. Well, that could have happened. There was a specially-built 747 designed to transport the space

shuttle if it landed at an alternate site. If you were flying that a/c with the shuttle on it, you were, in effect, flying both craft. Never mind all that popsicle stick and coat hanger stuff, mind you...



Read all about it...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuttle_Carrier_Aircraft

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 02:17 PM

37. The military are really good about lying and making shit up when they screw up

That is fairly obvious when you look at the pattern over years. And most people will believe it, because we are taught that any military man is some kind of hero and should be implicitly respected and trusted, and because of the strong patriotism bullshit every person is indoctrinated in from within our schools from day one.

It always reminds me of that super sappy public service commercial, of course there are many others but this one stands out to me, where the uniformed military soldiers are walking through an airport, and all of a sudden spontaneously one person, who is some Joe Blow average citizen of the general public, starts clapping and then another citizen joins in and another until everyone in the airport in the immediate vicinity of the soldiers is clapping for them in some kind of spontaneous expression of celebration for these "heroes". They usually play this commercial near Christmas time...

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 02:38 PM

38. I'm not even sure how this is related to your previous OP.

The pilots ejected with the plane aimed towards a residential area?
Really? Gee, I was under the impression that that was a no-no. Maybe the pilots were Republicans, so it'll be OK.

Yeah, I know, maybe the plane was unresponsive to the stick...we'll see...or we won't.

 
 

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Response to Make7 (Reply #38)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 02:59 PM

40. Note the indeterminate nature of my positing...

and I mean positing, not posting


Fact of the matter is that so far I'm not off by much...we shall see how this works out.

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Response to PCIntern (Reply #40)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 03:42 PM

41. Fact of the matter is....

you are the one jumping up and doing screaming "LOOK AT ME I AM A IDIOT!" and you most certainly are.

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Response to whistler162 (Reply #41)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 05:08 PM

45. Amen.

 


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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 03:51 PM

42. You said the pilots were Republican

I will still call you on that...

As to the accident, given f-18 seem, operative word, seem...to have some issues with stick control, I will wait fr the final investigation.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #42)

Sun Apr 8, 2012, 07:02 AM

54. I believe that I said or inferred that

if the pilots WERE Republicans, then all the better as far as the military were concerned...but if you want to be mad at me, that's OK. Really.

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Response to PCIntern (Reply #54)

Sun Apr 8, 2012, 02:01 PM

55. You are confusing mad with calling you on it

I personally know service members. They come from all walks of life and political affiliations. To use the Marine saying, when they suit up, they are one color ( or belief) Marine Green.

You want to call the mic on it, and CNN, by all means...but to call the pilots republican just because they happen to be in the Navy is inaccurate at best.

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 05:08 PM

44. The occupants of the apartment said publicly on camera they were not upset at the pilots

 

or the navy. Perhaps their opinion is worth more than yours...?

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 09:26 PM

49. When I was taking instrument flying lessons

many, many years ago. The instructor told us in no uncertain terms, there are only two places to crash should that situation arise.

One was the airport, the other was Farmer Jones field.

So while their will be an investigation, there will be PR spin, there will be "interesting" news reports, I believe that Pilots overall take those situations rather seriously and do whatever they can do to protect innocent lives.

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Sun Apr 8, 2012, 04:19 AM

53. Cassandras always rub some people the wrong way. I found that out when I said 9/11 would be used

as an excuse for war and for creeping fascism in this country. Back then I was only on email lists, not DU. But I received so much vicious hate email that I ended up dropping off of all of the lists I was on. Nonetheless, I don't regret speaking the truth I saw, and I know you don't either.

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