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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThe French resistance didn't congregate in a field. They "hid" themselves amongst the populace.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)at the result of stupidity, like congregating in a field.
Gather your children together and stand in a field, shelter in a hovel, or do anything in the world you can to keep your family safe. Your family isn't responsible if they get blown away.
This revenge needs to stop. Stop killing each other - smug statements don't bring back the dead. Stopping the killing prevents it from continuing. That's the ONLY thing that prevents the death toll from rising.
Rex
(65,616 posts)Line up and shoot each other!
Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)The French resistance was truly a guerrilla unit, loosely connected to allied forces but not being a specific state fighting force. They also had no analogous political wing in power. They were in every sense of the word occupied. Hence, hiding among the population was literally the only way to exist.
Hamas, on the other hand, is partly an elected socio-political body, partly a legitimate state-based military and partly a guerrilla unit. Because of those first two facts, it is difficult to maintain the legitimacy of their guerrilla tactics. However, Israel is currently working very hard to erase the first two forms of Hamas and their legitimacy as guerrilla fighters will increase accordingly.
This reflects upon the oddly ass-backward nature of Israel's tactics.
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)I have presented those reasons. That isn't to say that I believe Hamas has no right to hide amongst the population as a guerrilla force. I simply find the comparison to the French Resistance a bad one.
Germany was essentially liquidating one-by-one every legitimate Western European state, committing systematic genocide, imposing puppet regimes and wishing, ultimately, to conquer the whole of humanity. The French Resistance tended to focus on sabotaging the Nazi forces in cooperation with the allied forces and, for obvious reasons, could not launch attacks directly against the German population. On top of this, there was the Vichy regime which was propped up by the Nazis.
That is a drastically different circumstance from the one which exists in Palestine. I realize an occupation exists. But not all occupations are the same simply because they are occupations. There is no Israeli puppet regime in Gaza. There is no grand scheme of world domination. There is no massive world war supporting the specific conflict.
It's a bad comparison.
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)domination.
Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)Firing at attacking Israeli soldiers? Absolutely legitimate. Shooting down Israeli military aircraft? Absolutely legitimate. Sabotaging, maybe through monkey wrenching or something, the implementation of Israeli settlements? Absolutely legitimate.
Firing missiles at Israeli civilians and bombing restaurants? Not legitimate.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)Desmond Tutu calls Israel an occupier and an Apartheid state. He should know.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)There is no Palestine, ergo there is no occupation of Palestine.
Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)Israel holds its current territory after 3 wars instigated by its neighbors. The West Bank is formally the territory of Jordan though Jordan seems to have ceded control to the Palestinians. The Gaza Strip was partially occupied by Israel but Israel forcibly evicted its citizens and ceded the territory to the Palestinians.
I'm sure many would want to consider the combination of Gaza and the WB to be Palestine but it seems awkward to call it a singular political entity considering each section is controlled by a different faction and those factions wage bloody war against each other moreo than they respectively wage war against Israel.
Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)Much like how Canada and the United States constitute part of North America.
On top of this fact, if we want to get semantic, an internationally recognized Palestinian state called Palestine actually exists.
Regardless of your opinion of the legitimacy of the state of Palestine, and regardless of what the previous poster was actually referring to, Palestine literally exists in at least one form and, more accurately, is a region and a state. So, denying that Palestine exists is, to be blunt, genuinely stupid.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)North America is a geographical region. If that were the case one could just as easily maintain the generic "Middle East" for purposes of conversation. Unless corrected I'm assuming the OP is claiming Palestine is a state entity capable of being occupied in the same manner the US occupied Iraq. One does not refer to the United States as an occupying power in North America do to its geographical situation.
Which I acknowledged in my previous post. However, as I also stated the territories that would be considered Palestine are controlled by two separate factions. Which faction is recognized (and by whom) as the legitimate authority?
Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)I assume you mean the territories which are Palestine. Regardless of the infighting between who controls it, it is still an internationally recognized state.
Again, I'm left astounded by your assertion that Palestine doesn't exist. Not only does it exist, but in more than one form.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)I'm not even sure what that means. "Internationally recognized" means even less. Who is recognizing what boundaries represented by which faction?
If Palestine is meant to mean the WB and Gaza as represented by the PA -- which the US has negotiated with in the past -- then Hamas is far more of an occupier than Israel.
Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)Except Hamas is popular amongst Palestinians in Gaza and they are the majority power in the Palestinian Parliament. So they are not occupiers even under the most liberal of definitions. On top of this, the Fatah-Hamas electoral government unification to be held later this year has the potential to once again retain a single body governing the state of Palestine.
Either way, Hamas is a popular, elected body. Not an occupation.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)It strikes me as more akin to a Kardashian marriage --
The core of Yadlins argument is that Hamas has never been weaker than now. Its own war strategy is a shambles: Its missiles arent hitting Israeli cities; its fighters arent able to sneak through tunnels and perform suicide missions or conduct kidnapping operations. Its base in Syria is lost and its patrons in the Muslim Brotherhood have been toppled from power in Egypt.
Hamass biggest weakness of all is its unpopularity among Palestinians in Gaza now. A poll taken in June, before the latest fighting began, showed that 70 percent of Gazans wanted a continuing cease-fire with Israel; 57 percent wanted a Fatah-Hamas unity government to renounce violence against Israel; 73 percent thought nonviolent resistance had a positive impact, and large majority thought Hamas had failed to deal with crime and corruption.
The future? Asked if Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas should send security personel and other officials to take over administration of Gaza, 65 percent said yes. The poll was published in July by the Washington Institute for Near East Policy and its senior fellow, David Pollock.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2014/07/21/how-to-break-hamass-stranglehold-on-gaza/
The rest of the article is rather interesting and seems to speak towards a careful-what-you-wish-for strategy. It certainly makes sense.
Anyhoo -- none of this changes the fact that the WB was once Jordan and Israel, the supposed occupier, voluntarily ceded Gaza. Whatever Palestine may be it is cobbled together from other nations that allowed it to assume its current form. Nor does the article you provided say what the territorial boundaries of "Palestine" are supposed to be.
That was, after all, the nature of my original comment in this sub-thread. No one is saying what Palestine is territorially because they want it to mean whatever they want it to mean at any given moment depending on self-interest. To territorially define Palestine would be to admit borders, acknowledge the right of Israel to exist and thus reveal Hamas and those acting like them as the aggressors. To leave the borders undefined is to have the luxury of calling Israel an occupier whenever it is convenient to do so for propaganda purposes.
And that's the game every body knows is being played.
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)LiberalArkie
(15,713 posts)Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)Chathamization
(1,638 posts)under foreign occupation by Israel while being colonized by it. Take your pick.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)Arafat rejected borders in favor of an Intifada; much to President Clinton's dismay.
Chathamization
(1,638 posts)to Israeli colonization?
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)The radical Palestinians ethnically cleanse the territory they occupy.
Chathamization
(1,638 posts)be citizens of Israel. Israel will also not allow them to be citizens of their own country. Either these territories are part of an apartheid Israel or they are a separate nation under military occupation, and Israel (as well as others) should recognize them as such.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)You can cry apartheid all you want but you do so ignoring the outright ethnic cleansing of the radicals. To be a Jew in Hamas controlled territory would be suicidal. Meanwhile, the Israeli Knesset has Arab members.
There is no permanent Israeli presence in Gaza. Gaza is only as much of a prison as Hamas chooses to make it. They are such degenerate thugs that the Egyptians do not support them and Egypt maintains a strong presence on its border with Gaza.
The PA in the WB could have had defined borders when President Clinton sought to broker an agreement but Arafat rejected the opportunity to provide a state for his people. He chose to keep things hostile presumably to protect his own sad, sick power base.
Chathamization
(1,638 posts)presence in them, annexation of them, etc. is an occupation. Also, if they aren't part of Israel, then Israel and others need to recognize them as separate entities. The "they're not part of us but they're under our control and not their own entity" shell game is why people refer to it as apartheid. Oh, but it's not apartheid, since Israel has created some Bantustans...
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)The game fools no one. Hamas wants to see Israel and its citizens exterminated and you and every other apologist knows this. Israel is quite capable of living beside its neighbors when not being attacked.
Hamas doesn't want peace; they're little more than corrupt two-bit thugs that hide behind their own civilians while targeting other civilians. They spend their every minute stockpiling and firing weapons with no legitimate military value so as to provoke attacks to ply the faux indignation of others.
Their "territory" does not exist because they do not want it to exist. If the radicals were to define their own borders then they would de facto be recognizing Israel's borders but they refuse to accept the existence of Israel.
Get back to me when Hamas is willing to acknowledge the Right of Israel to exist within defensible borders.
Chathamization
(1,638 posts)Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)terrorist-enabling spin. Israel used its own military to forcibly evict its own citizens from Gaza.
As noted before, Arabs can and do serve in the Knesset. If you're even half as sincere as you pretend to be perhaps you could regale us with the accounts of all the civil liberties enjoyed by Jews, Christians and others in areas under Palestinian control. Please tell us about the full citizenship rights, equal participation and legal protections extended by Hamas.
You can't, because they're thugs. So, your complaint about Israel is unfounded yet you conveniently discard the standard when applied to a group of criminals who would be light years ahead of where they are now if Apartheid were their only offense, so grievous are the balance of their crimes.
The act isn't fooling anyone.
Chathamization
(1,638 posts)are colonizing it and denying it the right to be recognized as sovereign entity, that goes even further. On the other hand, if the land is yours and you are denying the people their equal citizenship and rights, then its apartheid. Arguing that its not occupation/apartheid because its justified isn't terribly compelling. Its like saying the US didnt occupy Iraq because the militants it was fighting in Iraq were nasty.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)when Hamas is firing Qassam rockets into Israel, kidnapping Israelis and dispatching its personnel kill Israels its occupying Israel.
And no matter how many times you repeat the propaganda of "colonizing" the charge is demonstrably false since Israel forcibly evicted its own citizens from Gaza.
Sadly, whenever the radicals amongst the Palestinians are in control ethnic cleansing ensues. Why do you support people who engage in ethnic cleansing?
Chathamization
(1,638 posts)international status, colonized its land at will and was a foreign entity, then yes, I would say it was occupying Israel. You probably would as well, and wed probably agree that anyone saying it wasnt was so biased that they were ignoring the facts and constructing their own reality.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)By your definition, whenever Egypt shuts down its border with Gaza because the thugs in Hamas are importing weapons and causing mayhem then Egypt must be militarily occupying Gaza.
The only misery in Gaza is that instigated by Hamas. If Hamas were to accept the current borders and recognize Israel's right to exist while insuring full civil rights for those living within its territory then these conflicts would end. Israel has demonstrated time and again that it is content to leave its neighbors to their own devises so long as Israelis are not being threatened.
Chathamization
(1,638 posts)Israel has no control of the border? Its like saying that if Hamas controlled the entire border of Israel except for the Golan Heights and made an agreement with the Assad regime where Assad would control the Golan Heights border in a way acceptable to Hamas, then Hamas would not be controlling the border with Israel. Again, if someone said that wed probably both agree that they were biased and creating their own reality.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)Hamas seems to have no trouble importing thousands of Qassam rockets, the materials to support those rockets and other weapons.
Whatever troubles Gaza is experiencing are the fault of Hamas.
Chathamization
(1,638 posts)travel, international status, colonized its land at will, had a military presence there, used it's military to exert control there, and was a foreign entity, you wouldnt say they occupied Israel? I suppose if the meaning of words isnt important to you we dont have much to discuss.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)then the moral failing is your own. Israel evacuates civilians. Hamas targets Israeli civilians and places their own people in harm's way for propaganda purposes. Hamas seeks the destruction of Israel and the extermination of Jews. Israel is not colonizing Hamas territory; Israel evicted its own citizens. That fact does not change no matter how many times you repeat the lie of "colonization."
You're taking the side of genocidal monsters.
Chathamization
(1,638 posts)reality. And to say that calling a military occupation a military occupation is supporting enemies of the occupation is ridiculous. If a right-winger said that anyone who was calling the US occupation of Iraq an occupation was taking the side of the militants that were decapitating civilians, wed justifiably say they have no understanding of language, logic, or reality.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)For Israel to be colonizing Palestinian territory the Palestinians would have to legally defined borders. The PA is seeking a return to 1967 borders but that is not the same as the actual, legal borders.
Furthermore, the Palestinians cannot even agree among themselves what the borders should be. Many factions within Palestinian camp won't accept any borders that include Israel seeking to 1) destroy Israel outright and 2) use the conflict for personal power gains.
What, exactly, are the borders that Israel is supposed to have violated?
Chathamization
(1,638 posts)Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)Keeping weapons out of the hands of genocidal lunatics is not a crime.
Palestinians have equal rights in Israel. The can serve in the Knesset and even serve in cabinet positions and on the Israeli Supreme Court. Please show us where similar rights are extended to those under Palestinians who are not Palestinians.
Show us the Jews allowed to keep their lives in Hamas controlled areas, let alone participate in civil government.
You can't.
Chathamization
(1,638 posts)Palestinian rights.
Geez, why would anyone have trouble with magical borders that change depending on what subject your on?
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)Why do you support Hamas, a group whose stated goal is the genocidal extermination of Jews and the elimination of Israel?
Why do you support Hamas, a group that ethnically cleanses the territory it controls?
Why do you support Hamas importing weapons with no military value that are only used for indiscriminate attacks against civilians?
closeupready
(29,503 posts)hack89
(39,171 posts)Gaza is not occupied.
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)holds the party that instigates fighting from such sites responsible for any collateral damage. Protected sites lose their protected status and opposing forces are entitled to engage.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)Kaleva
(36,294 posts)There isn't one without the other.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)Behind the Aegis
(53,951 posts)chrisa
(4,524 posts)sufrommich
(22,871 posts)and still supports them is no liberal.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)aggression is equivalent to "supporting Hamas?"
That's Bush-grade mischaracterization.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)conservaphobe
(1,284 posts)What's the receiving end of that "resistance" supposed to do?
"You're in an untouchable area, so our hands are tied... you win!"
No, it doesn't work that way.
I'm no fan of Netanyahu, but some of the disingenuous propaganda coming from the Palestinian side is just as laughable.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)msanthrope
(37,549 posts)Dreamer Tatum
(10,926 posts)dilby
(2,273 posts)Because I would have more sympathy for Palestinians if Hamas was only targeting military targets instead of just lobbing missiles into Israel hoping to hit anyone.
Throd
(7,208 posts)SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)of the occupiers.
Tetris_Iguana
(501 posts)We believe you...
iandhr
(6,852 posts)
WERE UNIFORMED GERMAN SOLDIERS.
Hamas shoots rockets at cities not military bases.
Quantess
(27,630 posts)WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)aint_no_life_nowhere
(21,925 posts)An example is the up to 8,000 man resistance army that was organized in the rugged Vercors region near the Alps. They intended to try to open a new front inside France against the Germans to draw German soldiers away from Italy and the eastern front and the impending invasion of southern France. They drew to their ranks hundreds of ex-military from France's forces and hoped that many others would join them. The plan was to have the allies drop ammunition and military weapons as well as American paratroopers. The resistance army declared the part of France they occupied free, a new republic, with its own flag. Unfortunately, the aide they needed didn't arrive and they were left with poor weaponry. The Germans sent General Karl Pflaum and 20,000 Nazi troops to surround them. They took very heavy losses and few escaped.
There was a similar uprising and concentration of about 500 resistance fighters on the Plateau des Glieres in the Savoy region of southeastern France. The British made several parachute drops of arms but the Germans sent three battalions of about 4,000 men against them along with ground support aircraft and they were massacred over a campaign of several days. General Charles DeGaulle is the one who called them out into the field from his headquarters in London, forever gaining the hatred of many French because it was claimed he was just trying to show his power and influence to other allied leaders, knowing the campaign was doomed to failure from the start.
Response to Luminous Animal (Original post)
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