I Stand With Israel

[Rhinodawg]

http://cjonline.com/blog-post/kevin-mcginty/2014-07-23/i-stand-israel


For a variety of reasons I'm not much of a religious person and never have been. So everything I have to say today comes more from a common sense point of view than from a religious perspective.

First and foremost and whether the haters of the world like it or not Israel has a right to exist.

Furthermore they have the right (morally as well as legally) to defend themselves from those who seek to deny them that right.

And as hard as it is to imagine, there are those who'll no doubt disagree.

Just for the fun of it let's say you're the leader of a country completely surrounded by terrorist organizations armed to the teeth by Iran and other terror sponsoring countries who have vowed to wipe you and your people off the face of the earth.

What would you do?

[Rhinodawg]

1. I stand with Israel.

[Logical]

80. ???? posting issues? nt

[mr blur]

156. Well bully for you! Rah! Rah! nt

[uppityperson]

2. There are only 2 ways for this to end? Did you notice who the author of that piece is?

Last edited Mon Jul 28, 2014, 01:45 PM - Edit history (1)

The Hamas leadership can accept the cease fire deals they've always had available, stop with the non-stop terrorist attacks on Israel, accept the fact that Israel has a right to exist and get on with their lives.....
Israel is going to have to inflict so much pain and damage on her enemies that it becomes impossible for them to continue.

That is where we disagree or agree only in part as there are other options. IMO, BOTH sides are going to have to come together and stop attacking each other.

I stand with NO country or government that thinks inflicting pain and death and damage will solve any conflict. Unless you kill them all, in which case their relatives elsewhere will continue, or other people who do not think killing everyone works. I disagree with that.

ETA, about the author, self confessed "conservative" speaking out against the global warming myth, women wanting others to pay for their "abortion pills" and the Democrat (sic) party. Is this really someone to quote here?

[samsingh]

163. you have a good point in your last paragraph

[JI7]

3. i don't stand with Netanyahu and what the Govt is doing

i do hope israel gets another leader and they can get peace .

but i view the situation as i did when BUsh was president. i didn't support him and what he was doing around the world and in our own country. but i did want better for the people.

[msongs]

4. I'd give back the land I stole at gunpoint & quit murdering people who are not my enemy nt

[former9thward]

26. Israel is surrounded by enemies.

Look at a map.

[randome]

30. Then the smart and humane thing to do is leave.

Give back some land. Lay down your arms. Do whatever is necessary to stop people on both sides from being killed.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]TECT in the name of the Representative approves of this post.[/center][/font][hr]

[former9thward]

33. The lucky ones left or tried to leave Europe in the 30s.

No more leaving.

[NaturalHigh]

83. And go where?

Your post makes no sense.

[randome]

134. I don't mean leave the area. I mean get the fuck out of the land they are illegally settling.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]The night is always young. It's never too late.[/center][/font][hr]

[Tetris_Iguana]

102. Yeah, no.

I think Israel is enjoying the upper hand it has now; and I would, too, in this dog eat dog world.

Smart thing would be for Israel to consolidate it's territory to defend against the up-and-coming caliphate.

Just my opinion tho...

[Katashi_itto]

168. Don't bother, go look up his posts about Sgt Bergdahl

I've yet to see any of his observations manage to be even remotely accurate

[atreides1]

56. Not really surrounded.

I don't think Jordan or Egypt are actually enemies anymore...adversaries perhaps!

Lebanon has it's own internal problems in their government...and Syria is in the middle of a civil war that doesn't look likely to end soon!

[WinkyDink]

154. You forgot the Mediterranean!

[WinkyDink]

153. A little history beyond sound-bites would help here.

[whatchamacallit]

5. I stand with humanity

and against countries who justify murder in service of their national and political aims.

[lexx21]

29. Unfortunately...

a huge swath of humanity is simply bat shit crazy and has no issues with killing their fellow man.

I truly understand what you are saying and to a large degree I can agree with you. It's just that at our present state of evolution that just won't be a reality. I really hate that it isn't too.

[whatchamacallit]

45. Sadly true

[tecelote]

76. I stand with humanity

and against countries who justify murder in service of their national and political aims.

[regnaD kciN]

79. +1

[RedstDem]

160. I'm with you

I stand with humanity, not the war pigs

[bigtree]

6. bomb innocent men, women, and children in retaliation?

. . .destroy their water supply, destroy their electrical grid, block their food and aid sources, bomb known and recognized shelters and hospitals?

These are things that I would think they know are wrong. I'm at a loss to see how these actions 'defend' Israelis or make them safer. If anything, these children and other innocents they are bombing will be at the head of resistance efforts in the future.

[fadedrose]

62. Movies from an early age on have influenced many Americans

When the killer held a hostage in front of him, the sheriff didn't shoot...

When the bad guys held hostages in a bank, the cops or FBI didn't shoot....the villain escaping with the money be damned - he would go free . . .

No effort was thought excessive in the sparing of an innocent life, and the audience cheered like hell when the innocents were freed without harm.

That was the nice thing about the heroes....they never killed anyone just to get to the bad guys.

American movies are to blame for the backward sympathy in the Gaza situation and

[bigtree]

66. this is just sad

. . . backward sympathy?

Speak for yourself, alright?

[fadedrose]

68. Depends on what you THINK I meant..

[bigtree]

70. make it clear what you're saying

. . . better yet, how about just offering your own opinion of right and wrong here and leave characterizing motivations for others' opinions out of it? I think the discussion would benefit from less personalization.

Sorry about any misunderstanding.

[fadedrose]

74. Usually the hostages, especially those killed,

receive sympathy, not the sheriff who shot them knowing they were innocent.

The end does not justify the means. That was said about communism, works here too.

This is a difficult topic. No wonder they banned it from GD unless it was current news....

It's hard not to feel sorry for people, especially the kids...

[Sunlei]

72. actually they didn't turn off power.I'm pretty sure Israel provides free electric to the entire Gaza

And I think most of their food, water, and medical attention.

Though I keep wishing at least one neighbor country would provide a safe spot for at least the Pal woman and children. But countries like Egypt have said no. And they're probably the country that allowed the vast tunnel system to be built,weapons smuggled into them through Egypt's borders.

[bigtree]

81. Electricity was already limited to a few hours a day for a limited few

. . . their generators were also reported targeted in this latest offensive.

"The latest round of conflict has disrupted water and sanitation services, as well as electricity, including the Gaza Power Plant which was shut down yesterday."
http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=48330

[sabrina 1]

7. I support Israel, but not their far right criminal leaders right now. Hopefully they

will one day get out from under their oppressive leadership.

I stand with this country, but certainly didn't stand with the far right criminal leaders who started the War in Iraq.

There is a huge difference in loving your country and opposing damaging policies instituted by your government

[H2O Man]

8. shallow

[Spider Jerusalem]

9. I love simpleminded tripe, really.

Israel is "completely surrounded" by Egypt, and Jordan, which it has treaties with and has not been at war with in over 30 years, the Golan Heights, which it occupied in 1967, and Lebanon, which has been uneasily mostly at peace since Israel's punitive expedition in response to Hezbollah rockets in 2006. Gaza, on the other hand, is completely surrounded by Israel, with a small strip of border shared with Egypt (patrolled by the Egyptian Army), and backed up to the Mediterranean. Here's a slightly different question for you: If you were surrounded by people who seemed to regard you as subhuman and wanted to wipe you out so they could take your land for themselves, what would you do? Probably not much different than the Palestinians. (Or Geronimo and Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse, for that matter.)

[malaise]

12. Geronimo and Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse, for that matter

+1,000

[former9thward]

32. How come there are no threads demanding Egypt open up the border?

Of course, Egypt like the rest of the Arab states, want nothing to do with the Palestinians.

[closeupready]

39. Which has nothing to do with anything, like the price of tea in China,

or tomorrow's weather forecast.

[Nevernose]

96. It really, really does

When people claim that Gaza is an "open air prison," they should maybe take into consideration who the guards are. In this case, it's both the Israelis and the Egyptians, both of whom have closed their borders with Gaza because Hamas launched terror attacks on both of them.

Yet only Israel has rockets launched at it, and only Israel takes the blame for the other crises in Gaza -- food, water, fishing access, medical supplies, freedom of travel. I'm not a big supporter of Israel, I just believe that he blame should be shared equally by the three governments involved (Israel, Hamas, and Egypt).

[Big Blue Marble]

136. Are you denying that Gaza is an open air prison?

On what grounds? And how would you describe it? Would you see your self living in such a place

[stranger81]

140. Like I said to 9thWard the last time he trotted out this old canard,

only Israel is occupying Gaza. Only Israel has the obligations of an occupying power under international law.

Not Egypt.

Not Lebanon.

Not Syria.

Not any other Arab nation.

I'm sure you will ignore this post, just as 9thWard ignored the same fact when posted in response to him earlier.

[el_bryanto]

10. As a friend to Israel I feel it's my duty to point out that their

suppression of the Palestinian people is inhumane and monsterous - and they need to stop it.

I note that you didn't mention the Palestinian people in your post - are you a friend to them?

Bryant

[roody]

11. Glad you are here, so you can become better informed.

[Jefferson23]

13. From your OP, the author:

Room 235



Perspectives from a right-wing (common sense) point of view...
BY Kevin_McGinty
http://cjonline.com/blog-post/kevin-mcginty/2014-07-23/i-stand-israel

[uppityperson]

15. Did you look at McGinty's other posts? What a jerk (jurors, the person who wrote the article, not th

duer who posted it)

Global warming denier. It's cold outside. See?
http://cjonline.com/blog-post/kevin-mcginty/2014-07-16/greatest-threat-facing-civilization-really

"I guess I missed the part where women were given the constitutional right to not have to pay for their abortion pills."
http://cjonline.com/blog-post/kevin-mcginty/2014-07-02/its-law-land-get-over-it

Inability to multi-task? Check!
http://cjonline.com/blog-post/kevin-mcginty/2014-06-29/few-questions-super-sensitive-pc-police-among-us

[Jefferson23]

20. Another right winger wrong and offensive on all fronts.

What a shock, huh? ( author not poster )

Thank you for the links.

[uppityperson]

21. Thank you for noticing as I hadn't. I went back to look and ewwwww (author, not du poster)

[Jefferson23]

22. You're welcome....sometimes I forget to look too. n/t

[cpwm17]

14. An oppressor can't claim self defense against the severely oppressed

as an excuse to commit another of a long line of atrocities against the very same oppressed people. That's a formula for endless unprovoked war.

It is very convenient to start history's clock at the last retaliatory rocket from an imprisoned population. It is convenient to be suddenly struck with a case of amnesia concerning the deadly rampage Israel conducted against the Palestinians and Hamas as collective punishment against the severely oppressed population for the kids murdered by the two Palestinians. This happened before the Rocket barrage from Hamas.

This aggression by Israel is an attempt to destroy the Palestinians' new unity government, plus they haven't conducted such an aggression against the Gaza Strip in a couple of years. A new beat-down was scheduled. Netanyahu knows what he is doing.

[tech3149]

16. You can stand with Israel if you wish but in the long run you will suffer the same fate

I have no objection to a Jewish state or the concept of a Jewish nation. My problem comes with the unquestionable subjugation and removal of those who lived in what western Europe decided should be the nation of Israel.
That was beyond stupid and revealed the anti-semetic views of western Europe. It was not only stupid but many at the time predicted the outcome. Most Jews at the inception of the Zionist plan were extremely opposed to the ideas. They did not want to be isolated from the rest of the world. They understood that the best way to survive and be accepted was to be a part of the community. The worst thing you can do is shut yourself off and proclaim that is the only way you can survive.
I had never been political and world events were just background noise until 2003.
That was my turning point and drove me to study and learn. I'm lucky that the best part of my life is behind me. I've done well for myself, taken care of my parents to their Final Days.
I'm living in the house my grandfather raised his family. I couldn't imagine it being blown up by a neighbor that 100 years ago would have shared my own fruits.

[former9thward]

37. Maybe you should try and sell that philosophy to the Arabs.

They have isolated themselves and they have the worst economies in the world.

[snagglepuss]

84. Hear Hear

[GeorgeGist]

17. What do you mean by STAND?

Because typing at a keyboard thousands of miles away doesn't impress me much.

Personally I think Israel chose a very, very bad location, location, location.

[former9thward]

42. Israel did not choose the location.

The U.N., controlled by the U.S. and western Europe, chose the location. At the time it was a barren patch of land with no resources. The western powers figured this would be a good place to get the displaced Jews of Europe out of the way. No one dreamed it would grow to be the most prosperous nation in the region.

[akbacchus_BC]

90. Pardon me, how is Israel the most prosperous nation in the middle east?

What is its economy based on except from support in the billions from the US. Question is, what is the US' investment in Israel?

Perhaps, the powers that be at that time should have given the Jews the Falkland Islands and then there would be no conflict! And it was not a barren patch of land in Palestine, it was occupied by Arabs!

[former9thward]

103. The Arabs had done nothing with the land.

So yeah it was barren except where there were already Jews living there. Israel's economy dominates the Middle East. Go to Israel and then go to its neighbors and see for yourself. They are economic basket cases. No, Israel's economy does not depend on U.S. aid. What a simple minded statement.

http://www.algemeiner.com/2013/12/08/analysis-israels-economic-dominance-of-the-middle-east-foreign-currency-reserves-dwarf-neighbors/

[Mosby]

149. 243 billion GDP

for a country of 8 million people.

By comparison, Jordan 31b. GDP, Syria 74b., Lebanon 43b.

Israel has one of the largest, most developed tech industries in the world, all the major companies are there like Intel, Microsoft, Cisco, IBM, Motorola etc.

The US military aid to Israel is about 3 billion per year.

[closeupready]

18. I do not support this current unilateral escalation of violence against the Palestinians.

I do not support this current unilateral escalation of violence against the Palestinians.

So take your jingoism, and stick it.

[bravenak]

19. More right wing drivel.

Israel has a right wing terrorist government that panders to the settlers, shoots teenagers in the back for throwing rocks, bombs family homes and kills children, bombs hospitals killing pregnant women. How could i as a black woman support the oppression of other brown people? To be a part of the 'in-crowd!?

I never give praise or support to foreign armies who kill children playing ball on a beach. Use. Swat team to get the rockets or missiles, do not just blast through hundreds of civilians. That shows lack of humanity.

Not to mention Israel is bombing people who have nowhere to go. If they get in a boat, they get blasted out of the water. The borders are closed. Israel has innocent civilians locked up with terrorists and have no qualms about killing any and everyone to get to the bad guy. That makes Israel now the bad guy.


LIKUD MUST BE STOPPED.

[alsame]

34. +1 It's always

mystifying to see Democrats rallying around a rabid right wing gov't in Israel. Likuds are the equivalent of our neocons, it's not like it's a moderate peace-seeking gov't.

And yet, DUers who presumably don't support neocons here just love Bibi and his gang.

[bravenak]

43. It blows my mind too.

I feel like i need to keep repeating over and over 'Netanyahu is like Cheney' And ' Likud is worse than the Tea Party' just to remind everyone what type of people we are dealing with. Right wingers. No one even bothers to listen to the crazy that comes out of Bibi's mouth. Sigh. I'll just keep reminding everyone that these folks are right wingers. Blood thirsty and irrational.

[malaise]

49. +1,000

BiBi must be condemned

[akbacchus_BC]

91. Not only that, Israel is showing its powers because it is being backed by the

most powerful country, the US. The US supports Israel in billion of dollars, have no idea why!

[Mosby]

159. Some of the Israeli fatalities

Lieutenant Paz Elyahu, an IDF paratrooper




Staff Sergeant Tal Ifrach




Staff Sergeant Moshe Malko




St.-Sgt. Guy Levy

[bravenak]

161. Very sad.

At least there aren't many civilians that got killed by Hamas. We can all be thankful for the fact that there haven't been any suicide bombers in Israel this time around.

Very sad. Such handsome young men, gone too soon.

Maybe it's just time to give up Palestine. Stop the killing, allow for healing, and allow the people self governance. Israel cannot keep ruling over the Palestinians anymore.

It is making Israel less safe and killing Palestinian civilians by the hundreds. No more rationalizations for killing should be made. Israel has lost the support of my generation because of this and yes, we are the future leaders of this Nation who always supports Israel.

When the baby boomers are gone, woe unto any warmongers. We are not interested.

[Comrade Grumpy]

23. "Perspectives from a right-wing (common sense) point of view... BY KEVIN_MCGINTY"

That is all.

[dilby]

24. I have a Palestinian friend who sides with Israel and his reasoning is thus:

One side has gay pride parades and the other stones gays. It should be noted he is a Palestinian Christian who has been to Palestine but was not born there.

[Hissyspit]

28. What a shitty rationalization for killing children on a mass scale.

And committing war crimes.

[stranger81]

162. No kidding. I'd think the necessary predicate to exercising your right to free sexual orientation

would be being alive in the first place. And Israel doesn't seem very keen on respecting the Palestinians' right to exist.

[akbacchus_BC]

94. You kidding us, just like you have one black friend you like!

Get lost!

[Rex]

25. Hold on a minute, let's look at the situation.

There were people living there before we decided to force them to admit that Israel would be a nation again and it's people would have a home...surrounded by their traditional enemies (gee what a great idea NOT). This is ALL ABOUT religion, so you really cannot take that out of the equation no matter how hard you try.

So let's see...we have resentment on both sides now, decades of hate and resentment, so NO I don't stand with Israel. I don't stand with the Palestinians either.

I stand with the dead children of Israel (both Palestinian and Hebrew) that seem to be forgotten all about...except when the adults need a reason to kill some more innocent children. To protect their own children...or so they say. I stand for those that cannot, because they are dead. The hatred has to stop, but since this is all over religion - I don't see that happening.

If the SOS can workout a ceasefire, how many more decades will there be a need for our SOS to try and workout a ceasefire?

How high do the bodies have to pile up, before the fathers of the sons and daughters finally sees them? Children deserve...no...they have the absolute right to grow up and become adults...that right is being violated, by both groups.

So NO...I cannot justify or support anyone in this conflict. The body count is piling up, the future is dead to those young souls.

[Rhinodawg]

35. Thanks.

.

[uppityperson]

44. Did you notice who the author of the piece you quoted was?

[Hissyspit]

27. Bullcrap. Two children dead an hour on average last two days.

Its like defending Bush on Iraq.

Here, read and learn (This from an Israeli):

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025274142

http://972mag.com/how-can-you-possibly-oppose-this-war/93924/

By Dahlia Scheindlin |Published July 19, 2014

How can you possibly oppose this war?

Someone asked me an innocent question: “What is the position of Israelis who are against the war?”

There are obvious answers.

First, this is a disproportionate war that harms huge numbers of civilians. The IDF is bombarding an area that it has already imprisoned by occupation from 1967, and then through suffocating border, movement, import and export control since 2007. Its residents have been stateless since 1948. It is attacking by air, land and sea, while Hamas attacks civilians in Israel through rockets and now through terrorist infiltration, at an increasingly frenzied pace.

Second, escalation breeds escalation. The south of Israel has not been at peace for a decade, but in this war, the whole country is under attack. And “Protective Edge” made things even worse for the south; all the Israel casualties so far – as of today two civilian deaths, numerous wounded (including children) and one soldier killed – have been in the south. “Code Red” warnings in Sderot all these years were awful, but death is worse. On a good day, there is suffering in Gaza; now the death and destruction there is indescribable.

- snip -

Fourth, the political and social consequences of the war will be a disaster in the short, medium and long term. In the short term, Hamas could easily become stronger, having become the defiant face of military resistance against Israel as diplomacy crumbles.

- snip -

Here is my extremely unpopular answer. There is no such thing as today devoid of yesterday and tomorrow; it is a fiction. The measures of the last ten days grow directly out of the measures in recent years. They will have devastating consequences in years to come. My criticism of this war is not “I told you so,” because some of us have warned for years that the status quo is illusory. Opposition to this war means finding a different response to predictable situations, so that there won’t be a next time, and in two years Israelis won’t have to say “this is no time to analyze the past.’”

- snip -

In the long term, I shudder to think about the souls of people who lost two, three, or 18 family members to Israeli bombs. The sobbing father who begged his child to wake up because he had brought new toys; the woman who told her sister in England to stay away and live, so that at least one of the family members would survive. I see what national trauma has done to the Jewish people more than 60 years following their darkest moments. The manifestations of Palestinian suffering in future generations will be terrible.

The fifth and final reason to oppose the operation is that previous wars have failed. Operation Cast Lead in 2008/9 begat Pillar of Defense in 2012, begat Protective Edge in 2014. Hamas was not toppled, Gaza was not disarmed. The only thing changing is the accelerating pace of the wars.

MORE AT LINK

[closeupready]

38. "The manifestations of Palestinian suffering in future generations will be terrible."

That's the bottom line for me, as an American, and one who supports Israel most of the time.

[ripcord]

31. People forget what Palestine could have been

The split that created Israel was a tripartite made up of Palestine, Israel and Trans Jordan. If only Palestine had given up the goal of destroying Israel maybe they would be in the state as Jordan is now.

[Hissyspit]

36. Yes, please massively oversimplify things for us.

[leftynyc]

41. Sometimes the truth is very simple

If the Palestinians had accepted the UN partition in 1948 they could have a thriving country by now. Instead they voted in terrorists as their leaders and their children are dying. Yes, sometimes the truth is just that simple.

[Comrade Grumpy]

46. No, the truth isn't that simple. One-sided propaganda is, however.

[leftynyc]

48. History is not propaganda

They were offered a state (one they're begging for now) and instead tried for the whole shebang. Their gamble lost. Very, very simple.

[stranger81]

142. Let me ask you this.

Your family owns 100 acres. Has lived on it for generations. Hundreds of years, if not more.

Two strangers show up at your front door. They offer to split your property three ways with you. Two parts for them, and one for you.

What would you say? I bet it wouldn't be, "sure, I'll give you 2/3 of what's currently mine, and just live on this little sliver over here."

And if you said no, and fought back? What would you say to those who tell you you could have had your own property had you just agreed to take a third of what you already had?

[bravenak]

47. Half of the people living there are younger than me.

I'm thirty three. We do not punish the sons for the sins of the father. The Berlin wall fell when i was about 8. Germany is now unified and free after many years. Palestine deserves the same opportunity to live in the here and now, not have their children suffering because their great grandparents did not take a deal. How many decades do the palestinians need to be punished and imprisoned because of 1948? A hundred? A thousand? How many years can the rabid right wing government in Israel use 1948 to punish people who weren't even born until the 1990's. Generations have already suffered because of the Nakba. We cannot let this continue forever.

Do not be a proponent of collective punishment because of 1948. My generation will not be assisting Israel with the collective punishment of Palestine. Israel is winning the war and losing the hearts and mind of the Millennials. They are making themselves less safe in the long run. We will not be teaching our children to support right wing bullies.

[leftynyc]

51. Perhaps voting a terrorist organization

into the government leadership wasn't such a great idea.

[Hissyspit]

55. What Israel is doing is such a great idea.

Yes, ler's blow up kids for how their parents voted.

Using that logic, Iraq should be blowing kids up in the U.S. for letting Bush have two terms.

[leftynyc]

100. Like we wouldn't have people here

ready to forgive and give excuses to any Iraqi to did that. You know I'm right.

[frylock]

111. kinda like you're doing now?

[bravenak]

58. I see Likud as a terrorist organization.

Perhaps they do too. Go read the Likud charter and pretend you are arabic or black. You should see how nasty Israel treats it's black jews. Go look. I can find you a video of a member of the Knesset using racial slurs at a go home ni@@@r rally.

We voted in the terrorist cabal of Cheney and company. Should we also be punished for the next hundred years? They killed hundreds of thousand of civilians.

[Violet_Crumble]

124. I agree, especially when they have sickos like Moshe Feiglin in positions of power...

Read this...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025264271

Also, Moshe Feiglin called Baruch Goldstein's massacre of Palestinians, which was definitely an act of terrorism, an 'act of resistance'

[bravenak]

125. I had to remind our good friend in IP of that article.

It's getting to the point where we cannot tell the sides apart from their views. I am watching MSNBC right now and the sympathies seem to be shifting from Israel because of the body count and high number of civilian deaths. Maybe this will force a change in government. I hope.

[Violet_Crumble]

126. Heh. No point even trying. It'll be automatically dismissed coz 'Israel is a democracy!!!'

...or something equally bizarre.

I really hope public opinion does change in the US, and that change flows up to the politicians there. At least over here the media coverage is good (except for the Murdoch owned rags, which I don't read and don't know what they're saying) and I can be confident I'm getting an accurate account of what's happening. If I was in the US I'm not sure I'd be getting that at all

[bravenak]

128. The news here ha been basically about Israel's right to self defense.

Until today. Even morning Joe had a segment painting Netanyahu in a bad light and describing th horrors of Gaza. So, it's finally happening at the media level here. Congress is still a joke. All morning they have been replaying the gaza school bombing and showing bodies. Not good for Likud.

[frylock]

110. using that rationale, 9/11 was justified

[jaycrewz]

97. smh

Ah yes, they should just accept the partition that stole land from them. Palestinians should just accept how Israel year by year encroached and stole even more land. Because accepting the partition would have meant Israel wouldnt have ever tried taking more Palestinian land.

Its like right wing Zionists arent terrorists. Killing women and children....not terrorist. Shooting unarmed civilians by way of sniper...not terrorist. Bombing the King David Hotel...not terrorist.

But when Palestinians fight back...terrorists. Make sense.


/sarcasm

[leftynyc]

98. You seem to have no sense of irony

The Israeli's never took over any land in a offensive war. They were attacked over and over again and took land in order to make themselves more secure - the way any winner in a war would do. You, on the other hand, want to reward the attackers which would give free rein to any group who feels they have a grievance to take some casualties in order to get the ones attacked to give in to whatever demands the group has. That's madness.

[jaycrewz]

133. lol...u srs?

so the Der Yassin massacre wasnt an offensive move? How about other countless invasions and Palestinian villages? How about the other countless displacements, bulldozing and creations of Israeli settlements?

[Big Blue Marble]

137. Did Israel not take the West Bank and Gaza and hold it under occupation? N/T

[leftynyc]

138. AFTER being attacked

and having to defend themselves. Why don't you understand that? They gave up the Sinai for peace, left gaza only to get rockets raining on them almost immediately. Every other country gets to defend themselves except for Israel.

[7962]

121. Why is it no one remembers that little fact??

[leftynyc]

123. Beats me

For republicans, history started January 2009 and for the anti-Israel brigade, it was 1967.

[Maedhros]

59. If only Israel would have stopped bulldozing Palestinian settlements and appropriating their land,

then Palestine may have stopped trying to destroy Israel.

Either side can (and does) claim justification for its violence toward the other. Trying to lay blame only on the Palestinians is, frankly, either ignorant or disingenuous.

[akbacchus_BC]

92. Exactly and walling in the Palestinians when the world was trying to break

down the Berlin Wall. Meanwhile, the UN is casting a blind eye to Israel continuing to occupy Palestinian land. Reminds me of how effective the UN and the US were in the Rwanda genocide.

Why on earth they put the Jews in the Middle East? They could have relocated them to the Falkland Islands and then America could pour in billions of dollars to them to create a country!

[NightWatcher]

40. they have the right to defend themselves against the people they're slaughtering?

How very noble of you.

Maybe everyone hates them for a simple reason. Maybe they have taken over the territory of people who were not ready to leave and are fighting to stay.

I love posts from people who do not know their history

[leftynyc]

50. Considering the pollling

I've seen that has 51% of Americans siding with Israel and 17% with the Palestinians, you may want to rethink that whole "everybody hates them" comment. Even the EU put out the most evenhanded press release I've ever seen from them. No - the only ones defending the terrorist hamas are far leftists.

[NightWatcher]

57. How many Americans support Israel because they think Revelations tell them to?

I'm sick of judeo-christian ideals shaping politics.

The rest of the world sees this for what it is. Too many Americans have to filter things through their preacher before they have a position on an event in the holy land. It's a damn shame

[mr blur]

67. +1 (nt)

[progressoid]

69. Yep. If the Bibull wasn't involved, this would be a whole different game.

[leftynyc]

101. Too bad

They're American citizens and voters just like I assume you are. And the polls are very clear on which side has the sympathies of the majority of Americans (by A LOT). As for your "rest of the world" nonsense, you know what I've seen? Just about every demonstration seemingly about Gaza turns into a hatefest against Jews...Paris, Germany, right here in the US to the point where one organizer is apologizing for the behavior of their group. So what the "rest of the world" has to say doesn't really touch me on this issue. Too many are using it as a cover for their antisemitism. That's what I'M sick of.

[stranger81]

143. The majority of Americans believe angels are literally real.

25% of this country thinks the sun revolves around the Earth.

I really couldn't give two shits about what the majority of the American people think.

[leftynyc]

144. Well then let's just poll DU users

to see what the pulse of the nation is. Whether you like it or not, these people are your fellow citizens and get to vote and have their voice heard. If you want to put your head in the sand not give a shit what they think, that's entirely your problem.

[stranger81]

145. Our representatives don't care what we think

40% of this country opposes the brutality Israel is engaging in at the moment. Our representation in Congress?

Zero.

Zilch.

Nada.

Kind of like the land between the river and the sea itself, one side gets all, and the other side gets nothing.

[leftynyc]

146. Where are you getting

your poll numbers from?

[stranger81]

147. Latest NYT numbers this weekend.

Link is floating around the boards here somewhere.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

52. I stand with righteous Jews -

who work for peace and Justice for their Palestinian brethren.

[B Calm]

53. Like it or not, we all stand with Israel. (121 billion dollars in foreign aid)

while our infrastructure crumbles.

[AngryAmish]

54. I stand with trouble

Especially when I finish this sixer of lil sumptin.

[BillZBubb]

60. The propaganda runs deep in this one!

What a sophomoric analysis of the situation.

[Swede Atlanta]

61. I don't stand with Israel or Hamas or the Palestinian Authority

I stand with the Israeli and Palestinian people who want an end to 50+ years of strife. The Jews have enjoyed a relatively high standard of living whereas the average Palestinian is still living in near poverty.

The time has come for the politicians to move out of the way and let the people make their decisions.

I am a vociferous critic of the state of Israel for its tactics, continued settlement building but I am also a critic of the Palestinians for supporting and letting themselves be hoodwinked by power-hungry leaders that do not have their interests at heart.

Down with Bebe. Down with Hamas.

[TransitJohn]

65. You sure you're in the right fucking place?

Maybe you should be on a right wing board.

[Rhinodawg]

71. Interesting...so...

democrats and progressives should be AGAINST ISRAEL..... right?

that will come as news to probably 95% of the house dems and 95% of the senate dems.


edit b/o I didn't like what I said

[uppityperson]

73. No, posting links to right wing jerks to prove your point is the problem.

[muriel_volestrangler]

107. You are explicitly supporting inflicting "pain and damage"

and you surely know the pain and damage that Israel is inflicting, which you support, lands overwhelmingly on civilians; but you want it to continue until "it becomes impossible for them to continue".

[Rhinodawg]

112. huh?

Where did I ever say that?

I support hamas stop shooting missiles at innocent Israeli civilians.

I support Israel defending itself against missiles and tunnels.

where the hell did I ever say until "it becomes impossible for them to continue".?

where did I ever say "inflicting "pain and damage"?

I think youre confused.

let me make you feel better...

https://www.facebook.com/StandingWithIDF

[muriel_volestrangler]

113. You posted the OP; the author ends it saying the only solution is for Israel to inflict

pain and damage until it's impossible for the Palestinians to continue. You reiterated that, like the author, you 'stand with Israel'; and now, you're explicitly standing with the IDF.

Or are you saying you don't agree with the article you linked to? If so, shouldn't you have said that 112 posts ago?

[Rhinodawg]

114. I DO stand with Israel.

and I'm not going to back down on that.

what the author said is his business.I just agree with him on standing against shooting missiles at innocent Israeli civilians.

My wish is that hamas accepted BOTH cease fire proposals that were backed by the arab league.

But they want to try to kill as many Israelis as possible.... that's too bad.

[muriel_volestrangler]

115. But you went out of your way to find a right wing writer who wants 'pain and damage'

so that you could say you stand with Israel, along with him.

Weird.

Have you considered finding a pro-Israel article that doesn't advocate pain and damage? Or is it that there aren't any?

[Rhinodawg]

116. I didnt know or really care what his politics are.

quite frankly you may want to ask hamas why they advocate pain and damage on innocent Israeli civilians.

[muriel_volestrangler]

117. Hamas don't post articles on DU

and I don't see DUers saying "I stand with Hamas", either.

You did read the article you posted, didn't you? The 'inflict pain and damage' message was well-known to you? Because you seem to be a bit surprised that it's there. You didn't know what his politics were, despite the page being headed "Perspectives from a right-wing (common sense) point of view..." ... odd, frankly ...

[Rhinodawg]

118. Ok...i will keep that in mind.

thx

[William769]

75. Why? I stand with Israel also.

Should I also be on a right wing board?

ETA: I did not visit the link, I stand with Israel because they stand with me.

[akbacchus_BC]

93. Why you concur with the atrocities of Israel doing to the Palestinians?

[Bohunk68]

104. William, over the years I have read many of your posts

and appreciate that as a gay man you have done so much. You must realize that there are indeed our brothers and sisters in gayness on the Palastinian side as well. You do realize that the Israelis are indiscriminate in their killing madness fever and our brothers and sisters are getting killed as well. But yet you insist that Israel stands with the GLBT community? And, since the Palastinians have not done that, they should be killed? I find it hard to believe that you would think or even imply this.

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

77. I wouldn't kill little kids.........

eom

[politicman]

78. some questions for those that stand with Israel...

I have a few questions for all you Israeli apologists:

You claim your support for Israel is because Israel has a right to self-defence when faced with Palestinian rockets lobbed in the direction of Israeli civlians, YET you have no problem when Israel does even worse than that by using precision weapons to target schools, hospitals, children and women?

You claim outrage that Palestinians would kill some innocent Israeli settlers that have established homes on land confiscated from the Palestinians yearly, YET dont have outrage when Israel kills over 150 Palestinian children in 2 weeks?

You claim that Israel has a righ to self-defence, YET you deny that right to the Palestinians who Israel continually oppresses and regularly bombards?

You stand with Israel when Israel has shown repeatedly its disregard for Palestinian human life, YET you stand against Palestinians because in your eyes that have disregard for Israeli life?


Seriously, how can you guys even live with yourselves thinking that way, let alone try to convince others to think that way as well?

[WinkyDink]

130. Well, your post would argue for the non-support of both groups.

[politicman]

131. i would take that..

That's fine, I will be happy with non-support for both groups.

Because right now, you have the U.S aiding and supplying Israel with billions in aid, and even more billions in military aid every year. Whilst Palestinians gets a pittance to help with some recovery every time they are demolished by Israel.


I'd love to see how powerful Israel would be if they didn't get the support they do.

If both groups got the same amount of non-support, then the Palestinians would be able to make Israel pay a heavy price every time it decided to commit to war, thus making war less likely as Israel would think twice about oppressing and killing Palestinians.

Already the Israeli army is so cowardly that they need advanced weaponry to fight Hamas who have rudimentary weaponry.
Already Israel is so cowardly that they are scared to actually have a fait fight, instead they use bombs and missiles from far away to try and kill their opponents rather than face them in a fair fight.

But we all know Israel is so cowardly that they are targeting children instead of letting Hamas arm themselves properly and meet them on the battlefield.

[WinkyDink]

150. I'm not sure "equality in weaponry" is part of the Geneva Conventions. (See: Hiroshima.)

[WillyT]

82. Oy Vey...

[alarimer]

85. I don't.

Bloodthirsty assholes.

I should clarify that I mean the government, who gets away with literal murder daily, and not the people.

Although I think they need to stop voting for the war-mongers.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

86. What are America's interests in standing with either side?

[Dragonfli]

88. The defense/offense industry profits and AIPAC will write large checks to politicians

It is as simple as that I believe. It is easy to understand when you realize only the wealthy and corrupt Americans interests are considered when speaking of Americas Interests.

[Damansarajaya]

87. Whoa. Poster seen throwing self on sharpened stakes.

Masochist much?

[applegrove]

89. That is not to say that there are not some

dangerous right wing extremists in Israel that cause war too. Extremist are the real enemy worldwide.

[akbacchus_BC]

95. You stand with Israel, how nice of you! Whilst Israel is occuping

Palestinian land, killing innocent people, you must feel good about that!

Who are you anyways? You sure not a Democrat!

[eridani]

99. If Palestinians are armed to the teeth, why isn't their air force bombing Israeli cities? n/t

[NM_Birder]

105. because .......

4 out of five dentists who chew gum, prefer Trident.

[jimlup]

106. I don't I think we should sanction Israel

I support full sanctions against the Israeli state.

My own person response will be to avoid all Israeli goods and services. I hope others will join me.

[Boom Sound 416]

108. I stand with Israel

[treestar]

109. Why do they have a right to exist?

This is said over and over mindlessly.

A country has to be able to establish and defend itself. Thus the USA has a "right" to exist, in that it established itself and maintains its defenses. If it could be conquered, it would no longer exist, "right" to or not.

Israel is created artificially and propped up. Had it not been purposely created, it most likely wouldn't exist.

They should have made some kind of deal with the Palestinians living there rather than simply informing them that the world had decided the place they lived would be created as a country in which they were preliminarily unqualified to live.

[WinkyDink]

151. So...If the US decided to "conquer" say, Malta, you'd be okay with that?

[LWolf]

119. You do that.

I don't stand with any war-mongering countries, including my own.

I'll stand with all peaceable people who will live and let live, regardless of their nation's actions.

Just for the record, though...the right to exist is not the same as the right to expand.

[DeSwiss]

120. Click the ''I'' button. n/t

[XRubicon]

122. Ok Rino...

[peacebird]

127. What would I do? Move. But that's just me.

and I no longer stand with Israel, not if the Israelis support their governments actions in Gaza.

[WinkyDink]

152. Yes, the world is chock-full of employment opportunities. (Reagan said, "Vote with your feet," and

it was stupid then.)

[Quantess]

129. I love the photo of the young women (teenagers?) with big smiles

waving Israel flags. They look like they are cheering a sports event. YAY!!!!!

[msanthrope]

132. I stand with the dead children. nt

[WinkyDink]

157. So do I, and more:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Terrorism/victims.html

http://archive.adl.org/israel/israel_attacks.html#.U9aBeWdMu71

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks#Total_number_of_fatalities.2C_by_year

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/terrorism/terrisrael.html

http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/18/world/europe/bulgaria-israel-blast/

[WatermelonRat]

135. I'll stand with Israel in Gaza but against it in the West Bank.

[Katashi_itto]

141. Gosh low count...I wonder where this poster comes from....

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/08/14/israel-pay-students-propaganda_n_3755782.html

"Israel to Pay Students for Pro-Israeli Social Media Propaganda"

Israel has announced it will pay university students to circulate pro-Israeli information on social media networks, without having to identify themselves as working for the government.

The move was publicised in a statement from Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu's office, the Associated Press reported. Students will receive scholarships to "engage international audiences online" and combat anti-Semitism and calls to boycott Israel, it was alleged.

In 2012, a Palestinian-run blog reported similar arrangements between the National Union of Israeli Students and the Israeli government. Students would be paid $2,000 to post pro-Israel messages online for five hours a week.

According to Israeli daily newspaper Haaretz, the most recent proposition is being spearheaded by Danny Seaman, who was slammed by the media for writing anti-Muslim messages on Facebook.

Students will be organised into units at each university, with a chief co-ordinator who receives a full scholarship, three desk co-ordinators for language, graphics and research who receive lesser scholarships and students termed “activists” who will receive a “minimal scholarship”, the Independent reported.
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[BlindTiresias]

148. Cool right wing article!

Why are you posting right wing talking articles on DU and agreeing with them? Are you a right winger?

[Swede Atlanta]

155. Couldn't disagree more....

We have treated Israel like a baby for decades giving them billions if not trillions of dollars in U.S. aid.

What has that gotten us? Oh we have probably gotten some good intelligence but other than that zip, nada.

We tell Israel not to expand settlements and they thumb their nose at us. We try to get them to engage in meaningful dialogue with the Palestinians and they do so nearly under protest.

We must immediately stop all support for either side. We need to pull out our missile shield from Israel. If they want a missile shield they can purchase one. We need to make sure we are making good profit on that sale. Any arms or anything they want they can purchase at market prices. No more special treatment for Israel.

Israel is NOT America's ally despite what people tell you. Israel is only out for one thing - Israel. They will kill, lie, cheat, spy, etc. without any regard for our relationship because they know the American political establishment is owned by the Jews. That is plain and simple.

I fully support Israel's right to exist and for Israelis to live in peace. But I am tired of the "thumbing of the nose" from the Israeli side. If they want to play games let them play them with their own money or the wealthy American Jews can send their money directly to the Israeli treasury.

[2pooped2pop]

166. congrats for surviving an alert

this post was alerted on. 4-3 to leave it. I voted to leave it.

[DrewFlorida]

158. I also support Israel, but, I don't support those in Israel who sabotage peace with Palestine.

There are extremists on both sides who don't want peace, as well, there are moderates on both sides who have come close to peaceful accords many times. Each time they are close to agreement, extremists sabotage the peace initiative. Israel continues to build settlements on land which was annexed supposedly to hold as a buffer zone, yet we see Israel has no intention of using that land as a buffer zone, in reality, they simply stole the land. Palestine on the other hand continues to behave as a terrorist state, run by a terrorist organization.
It is quite frustrating to see Israel not taking steps that would bring about peace, and it is even more frustrating to see people making statements that suggest, that to criticize Israel is equal to not supporting Israel. Yes we can support Israel's right to exist, while also disagreeing with Israel's continued buildup on stolen land. A true friend does not simply rubber stamp his friend's actions, he sometimes tells his friend what he needs to hear for his own good!

[KamaAina]

164. "Completely surrounded"?

Last I heard, Israel had made peace with both Jordan and Egypt.

[Kingofalldems]

165. Really swell of them trashing our Secretary of State.

[spanone]

167. i stand on the side of peace.