HomeLatest ThreadsGreatest ThreadsForums & GroupsMy SubscriptionsMy Posts
DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Main » General Discussion (Forum) » I don't know. This Trayvo...
Introducing Discussionist: A new forum by the creators of DU

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 10:04 PM

I don't know. This Trayvon thing seems to be CONSUMING America

It's really theater of the absurd. I mean, really? A white guy hunting down a black guy and killing him in cold blood? And nothing is done about it?

Sorry, from a non-American point of view, this is insanity. But I do know that Americans feel the same way.

Honest to God, WTH is happening in America? People defending Zimmerman? Have people lost their collective minds?

The system (if there even IS a system) ISN'T WORKING.

92 replies, 6581 views

Reply to this thread

Back to top Alert abuse

Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum
Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 92 replies Author Time Post
Reply I don't know. This Trayvon thing seems to be CONSUMING America (Original post)
Canuckistanian Apr 2012 OP
Lost-in-FL Apr 2012 #1
teddy51 Apr 2012 #2
Canuckistanian Apr 2012 #7
nadinbrzezinski Apr 2012 #13
Joseph8th Apr 2012 #25
Johnny Rico Apr 2012 #47
Joseph8th Apr 2012 #60
Johnny Rico Apr 2012 #70
socialist_n_TN Apr 2012 #59
Joseph8th Apr 2012 #63
rrneck Apr 2012 #78
csziggy Apr 2012 #80
barbtries Apr 2012 #90
nadinbrzezinski Apr 2012 #3
Canuckistanian Apr 2012 #8
Sarah Ibarruri Apr 2012 #4
-..__... Apr 2012 #5
Obamacare Apr 2012 #6
Art_from_Ark Apr 2012 #28
provis99 Apr 2012 #9
nadinbrzezinski Apr 2012 #11
socialist_n_TN Apr 2012 #61
hay rick Apr 2012 #15
Canuckistanian Apr 2012 #26
annm4peace Apr 2012 #10
nadinbrzezinski Apr 2012 #12
Joseph8th Apr 2012 #46
amandabeech Apr 2012 #14
-..__... Apr 2012 #17
Joseph8th Apr 2012 #64
Meiko Apr 2012 #48
amandabeech Apr 2012 #86
csziggy Apr 2012 #82
timesup Apr 2012 #16
MrMickeysMom Apr 2012 #18
jtuck004 Apr 2012 #21
MrMickeysMom Apr 2012 #54
jtuck004 Apr 2012 #81
Blort Apr 2012 #19
doc03 Apr 2012 #20
EFerrari Apr 2012 #22
mactime Apr 2012 #23
Cali_Democrat Apr 2012 #30
EFerrari Apr 2012 #38
doc03 Apr 2012 #34
Whisp Apr 2012 #42
doc03 Apr 2012 #37
EFerrari Apr 2012 #39
barbtries Apr 2012 #91
Whisp Apr 2012 #43
shadowrider Apr 2012 #73
shadowrider Apr 2012 #49
mainer Apr 2012 #50
doc03 Apr 2012 #53
mainer Apr 2012 #56
doc03 Apr 2012 #57
csziggy Apr 2012 #83
shadowrider Apr 2012 #68
shadowrider Apr 2012 #71
mainer Apr 2012 #74
shadowrider Apr 2012 #87
Canuckistanian Apr 2012 #24
dkf Apr 2012 #35
Canuckistanian Apr 2012 #40
dkf Apr 2012 #44
K Gardner Apr 2012 #76
pasto76 Apr 2012 #27
Canuckistanian Apr 2012 #29
bigwillq Apr 2012 #33
lonestarnot Apr 2012 #55
bigwillq Apr 2012 #65
lonestarnot Apr 2012 #66
bigwillq Apr 2012 #67
rufus dog Apr 2012 #31
spanone Apr 2012 #32
Americana Apr 2012 #36
cherokeeprogressive Apr 2012 #41
Cleita Apr 2012 #45
mainer Apr 2012 #51
Kaleva Apr 2012 #62
mainer Apr 2012 #69
Kaleva Apr 2012 #75
mainer Apr 2012 #77
Kaleva Apr 2012 #79
ecstatic Apr 2012 #52
slackmaster Apr 2012 #58
mzteris Apr 2012 #72
agenda 21. Apr 2012 #84
cr8tvlde Apr 2012 #92
just1voice Apr 2012 #85
indepat Apr 2012 #88
barbtries Apr 2012 #89

Response to Canuckistanian (Original post)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 10:13 PM

1. Fortunately it is the "many" that feel the same way as you do. nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Canuckistanian (Original post)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 10:17 PM

2. I think you know the answer to your question! Killing anyone in cold blood and using a f**k** up

 

law to hide behind. duh.... In any other (Supposed Democratic country) this would not happen. "Stand Your Ground" might have been drafted in good faith, but it sucks big time".

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to teddy51 (Reply #2)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 10:43 PM

7. It seems to go against Common English Law

I mean, you have the right to defend yourself - but this is a perversion of law and common sense.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Canuckistanian (Reply #7)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 10:54 PM

13. These laws are indeed a perversion of common law

And castle doctrine going back a long time.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Canuckistanian (Reply #7)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 12:43 AM

25. Right on... plus...

 

... if we followed the English example further and enacted sensible gun regulations ... if the SCOTUS wasn't in the NRA's pocket ... then "self defense" wouldn't always be lethal. It might still be violent to be attacked or forced to defend oneself, and can even still be lethal, but the fact is gun nuts have gone too far, and we've GOT to rein this shit in.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Joseph8th (Reply #25)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 04:18 AM

47. How do you want to "rein it in"? Specifics, please.

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Johnny Rico (Reply #47)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 11:12 AM

60. Sure... sensible gun regs...

 

If the SCOTUS would quit their judicial activism and wilful reinterpretation of the 2nd Amendment, to start, then Congress could pass laws to enforce the 'well-regulated' part. What those regs would be, in a purported democracy such as ours, would require a serious debate to hash out. I'm saying its time we start having that conversation, now, and let our 'leaders' catch up.

If you want to know MY specific proposed regs... where I come in on this debate... no prob:
* Repeal Stand Your Ground laws (obvious one)
* Repeal Concealed Carry laws (no individual right to carry)
* Ban assault weapons, including for hunting (no right to bear an F-16 or nuke... reasonable limits on what can be sold)
* Close the gun-show loophole
* Criminal background checks
* 3-day min. waiting period
* Strengthen training and licensing reqs
* Crack down hard on gun-sellers who break the law -- esp. suppliers to smugglers. Life prison for knowingly arming, i.e., Mexican drug cartels, unregulated militias, ex-cons.
* Strengthen sentencing guidelines so that crimes of gun violence are punished more severely than violent crimes that do not involve the misuse of the 2nd Amendment.

My point is if Americans want to keep the 2nd Amendment in the long term, we'd better start reining in our gun nuts -- esp. the ones in office and on the bench. If they don't like (which they won't), then we argue. We attack, relentlessly, and incite them to react (verbally!) so that everyone can see who they really are.

I grew up country. Very country. I KNOW who these gun nuts really are. These are not good people, and they should not be armed.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Joseph8th (Reply #60)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 11:45 AM

70. Thank you for being so specific, it's appreciated.

 

If the SCOTUS would quit their judicial activism and wilful reinterpretation of the 2nd Amendment, to start, then Congress could pass laws to enforce the 'well-regulated' part.

Not about to happen with a Republican majority in the House and more than 40 Republicans in the Senate.

* Repeal Stand Your Ground laws (obvious one)
Disagree.

* Repeal Concealed Carry laws (no individual right to carry)
Disagree.

* Ban assault weapons, including for hunting (no right to bear an F-16 or nuke... reasonable limits on what can be sold)
Disagree with banning the most popular centerfire rifle in America.

* Close the gun-show loophole
Disagree.

* Criminal background checks
Disagree, already in place when buying from someone with an FFL.

* 3-day min. waiting period
Disagree.

* Strengthen training and licensing reqs
Disagree.

* Crack down hard on gun-sellers who break the law -- esp. suppliers to smugglers. Life prison for knowingly arming, i.e., Mexican drug cartels, unregulated militias, ex-cons.
Disagree, simply because it's not against the law to sell firearms to someone who belongs to an unregulated militia.

* Strengthen sentencing guidelines so that crimes of gun violence are punished more severely than violent crimes that do not involve the misuse of the 2nd Amendment.
Partial disagreement. I couldn't care less what weapon someone uses when committing a crime of violence, but I am in favor of strengthening sentencing guidelines for all violent crime.

I KNOW who these gun nuts really are. These are not good people, and they should not be armed.
What steps would you take to disarm them, and what would be the legal definition of a "gun nut"?

As for my recommendations, I would institute unrestricted concealed carry at the national level and repeal the 1986 ban on the new manufacture of fully automatic weapons for civilians. Given this trend:



I daresay my agenda has a better chance of coming to fruition than yours.

Obviously we're not going to come to a meeting of minds here; our agendas are diametrically opposed. That having been said, let me reiterate my appreciation of you being open and candid in expressing your agenda; I hope I've done the same.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Joseph8th (Reply #25)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 11:09 AM

59. ... then "self defense" wouldn't always be lethal."..............

That's it in a nutshell. These SYG laws in the varying states make it IMPOSSIBLE to have an escalating self defense policy. It means that all situations go IMMEDIATELY to "lethal" level. At least for most people. You're going to be "in fear of your life" from the first verbal jab. And it doesn't matter if you're the aggressor or the defender in an altercation, BOTH are going to be "in fear..." and there's a higher chance of somebody pulling a gun, earlier in the altercation.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to socialist_n_TN (Reply #59)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 11:15 AM

63. Exactly right! Thx for saying more clearly... nt

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to socialist_n_TN (Reply #59)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 12:42 PM

78. I dont think the mere posession of a gun

eliminates the continuium of force.

Zimmerman will prove to be an interesting test case since he is obviously trying to exploit what he perceives to be a loophole in SYG law.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to teddy51 (Reply #2)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 12:59 PM

80. Stand Your Ground was drafted by ALEC, not in good faith

It is a perversion of the "Castle" laws and self defense laws and is completely unnecessary in order for people to lawfully protect their property and themselves.

I hope that the death of Trayvon Martin will lead to the repeal of SYG in every state where it has been passed!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to csziggy (Reply #80)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 09:39 PM

90. i think we should change the acronym

and just call them what they are: LTK laws.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Canuckistanian (Original post)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 10:19 PM

3. Yup, many of us feel this way

Today we crossed into power keg territory. Brown shirts are running armed patrols in Sanford...yup those brown shirts.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #3)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 10:44 PM

8. I know

That's what triggered my post.

This is pure insanity.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Canuckistanian (Original post)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 10:20 PM

4. What is happening here is that the corporate right wing has control

and it has since 1980. Even Democratic Party presidents have had little influence because of the sheer monstrosity of funds poured into right wing corporate propaganda.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Canuckistanian (Original post)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 10:25 PM

5. No... the system is working (at least so far)

 

Despite the...



here, and elsewhere, this is a case still under investigation.

Only a fool or biased person would draw a conclusion based on the evidence reported by the MSM...liberal or conservative.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Canuckistanian (Original post)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 10:35 PM

6. I just don't understand how anyone couldn't be outraged at what happened to Trayvon.

 

Whatever nationality, race, religion etc, especially parents out there. Unfortunately, some folks, mainly rethugs will always see every issue along racial lines and never put themselves in someone else's shoes.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Obamacare (Reply #6)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 12:52 AM

28. +1

Well said

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Canuckistanian (Original post)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 10:48 PM

9. what I find stranger, is how obsessed Canadians are with the issue.

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to provis99 (Reply #9)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 10:51 PM

11. Well think about it

This powder keg goes, they share a border.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #11)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 11:12 AM

61. A long and mostly undefended and even unwatched ...........

border.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to provis99 (Reply #9)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 11:39 PM

15. Maybe they thought that they were like us.

And now they have to wonder.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to provis99 (Reply #9)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 12:46 AM

26. I wouldn't say "obsession"

Just confusion and incredulity.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Canuckistanian (Original post)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 10:50 PM

10. people also need to look at their own communities

It is horrible that they still refuse to arrest Zimmerman.

But have their been similar cases in your state, or city?

We need to open our eyes to injustice and racism all over this country.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to annm4peace (Reply #10)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 10:53 PM

12. Locally we have at least four hate groups.

I just sent a note to my editor to keep an eye for trouble. One are our local cuddly nazis. Nope, I am not kidding.

This could have serious aem, spread.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to annm4peace (Reply #10)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 02:31 AM

46. Ohhhh.... yeahhh...

 

I live in Albuquerque, home of the Albuquerque Death Squads -- gangs of cops that killed dozens of immigrant workers' rights activists in the '70s. Around the time the Martin tragedy started getting picked up by the media, we had 2 shootings by cops in 2 days. In one case someone got in a car accident with a cruiser, and the cop pretty much jumped out and blew him away while he ran for his life. Media distorts, complicit in the cover-up, until called on it.

They got called on it:

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57403496-504083/albuquerque-police-involved-in-shootings-got-union-checks-report-says/

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Canuckistanian (Original post)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 10:54 PM

14. The killing of Trayvon Martin was horrible.

However, the system is working, however slowly, even though Zimmerman has not yet been charged.

The original prosecutor who refused to charge has recused himself and Zimmerman now is being investigated by a higher level State Attorney, who has an investigative team and the authority either to charge or to take the case to the grand jury for an indictment. A grand jury here is composed of citzens just like a regular jury, but the grand jury works in private. The prosecutor puts the evidence and the law before the grand jury, but the grand jury votes on whether to indict, or charge, the alleged criminal.

Zimmerman could easily be indicted or otherwise charged within the next two or three weeks.

Once charged, he will be brought before the court for a preliminary hearing, at which bail and a trial date will be set. I expect that Zimmerman will be required to post a very significant amount of bail.

All I ask is that people not believe everything said in the media or on the internet. There have already been instances of inaccurate reporting in the TV media. This is a very, very upsetting case, and I think that the media needs to be careful to check facts thoroughly before airing or printing them.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to amandabeech (Reply #14)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 11:57 PM

17. And what do we do with Zimmerman?

 



Zimmerman could easily be indicted or otherwise charged within the next two or three weeks.

Once charged, he will be brought before the court for a preliminary hearing, at which bail and a trial date will be set. I expect that Zimmerman will be required to post a very significant amount of bail.


BURN HIM!!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to -..__... (Reply #17)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 11:17 AM

64. Love it!! Remember how...

 

... this scene ends?

"Fair enough," sez the witch.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to amandabeech (Reply #14)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 04:22 AM

48. Well said

 

Allow the system to work...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Meiko (Reply #48)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 03:22 PM

86. Thank you! n/t

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to amandabeech (Reply #14)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 02:11 PM

82. The reason the family went to Al Sharpton and brought the case to the media

Is that NOTHING was happening. They could get no answers from the Sanford Police why the killer of their son was not charged. They could get no information on what was being done in an investigation. They knew from talking to people in the neighborhood that witnesses were not getting call backs from investigators when they were trying to share information.

Until the family went to Benjamin Crump and Crump approached Al Sharpton, the case was at a standstill.

So the system at that point was NOT working, except it was working the way it almost always had in Sanford for black people - not at all in the interests of justice.

All this family has asked from the beginning is a proper investigation and the arrest of the man who killed their son. If a black man had shot that teenager, no matter the color, he would have been arrested that night and still be in jail or bonded out while waiting for the result of an investigation.

That George Zimmerman was not arrested shows that the system was not working that night in February. That he still has not been arrested shows the system is still not working.

Any time there is a violent death, there needs to be an investigation before the admitted killer is allowed to walk free.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Canuckistanian (Original post)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 11:57 PM

16. The greed of corporation interests put ahead of individuals...

This is the problem in a nutshell.

Until that is dismantled, the billionaire assholes will continue to fuck things up, just for fun.


Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Canuckistanian (Original post)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 12:04 AM

18. I am embarrassed about a poll I saw tonight...

... TYT... The disparity between answers to a pole as to how Americans think about this killing from a racist point of view ...

I've repeated a few times this week and it's worth repeating again ...

http://www.favreau.info/misc/14-points-fascism.php

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MrMickeysMom (Reply #18)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 12:20 AM

21. That first point, "nationalism". That was something the folk schools in Denmark


fostered, and I don't remember them being thought of as particularly fascist.

I frequently have this trouble with checklists...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to jtuck004 (Reply #21)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 10:47 AM

54. What about the 14 points?

Do you have trouble with the list as a whole and the what has historically been documented in the history of fascism?

I have trouble with lists, too, when they appear as talking points, rather than notations on history in regard to what a particular society experiences.

When looking at "nationalism", I compare and contrast the American experience with the rise of Hitler in Germany, but, this can also be compared to other countries. When I think of "nationalism in the United States", I think of our early experiment with each wave of immigration, whether other factors, such as assimilation to society and the health of society assisted in new Americans' assimilation into what we've historically called "culture". Relevant to the status of the other 13, I believe we prosper when we are open to what this nation is becoming.

When I think of the extreme nature of one culture over another under the guise of "America - Love it or leave it!", or, "Build a higher fence", or, "Speak English!", or "The United States nuclear capabilities are better than other countries, except Israel", I begin to examine the point of "nationalism" in a more serious way. Taken as a whole 14 point checklist, I'd say we are in dangerous territory.

I have no problem evaluating and considering the 14 points of fascism as a checklist

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MrMickeysMom (Reply #54)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 01:07 PM

81. Maybe the problem is that people always, incorrectly, think of Nazi Germany


when they think of nationalism, but perhaps the fault is in their thinking.

In the Danish folk schools this meant singing songs that filled the spirit, that crossed the river of separation between the elite class and the common folks, between those who had been educated in the "black schools" - the soul-sucking public school versus the schools for life of Grundtvig. And while one can see similarities everywhere, the aim was much different. The Germans drank water too, but that doesn't make everyone who is thirsty a Nazi, or every kid who marches straight-legged a storm trooper.

The list is ok, but I am not sure it isn't so simple that it risks encompassing other philosophies which don't belong or not being clear enough.



Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Canuckistanian (Original post)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 12:12 AM

19. 2 separate police shootings in Austin today

there were 2 police shootings in Austin today, one in which the police shot a suspect (a seriously bad dude) but may have been a little quick to the draw. and a second shooting in which a cop was basically gunned down in cold blood by a dude with a gun. But par for the course the Martin-Zimmerman thing has got the right wing radio people just foaming at the mouth... apparently only more guns can keep this country from sliding into Kenyan-Marxism, and since Obama is comin fer yer guns -- you have to buy buy buy now now now--- and a million rounds of ammo too. I do love the fact that the morning hate radio is actually sponsored by a gun store.

I don't think either shooting today would have been helped by MORE guns.

The defense of Zimmerman only rests upon the theory that more guns is going to help, That and pure Obama derangement syndrome.

The righties are sort of a sad little bunch

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Canuckistanian (Original post)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 12:14 AM

20. Lets wait to the facts are all in before we say a white guy hunted

down a black guy and killed him in cold blood. I don't think we have enough evidence to make a judgement either way.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to doc03 (Reply #20)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 12:25 AM

22. Yeah, a white guy twice as big and ten years older than this kid

hunted him down and killed him in cold blood.

And the worst thing is, this isn't the only case that is ongoing right now. There's the black ex-Marine who was shot to death in his own home after he was called the N word and after his service was mocked by the White Plains police. There's another case of the same WP policeman who beat a handcuffed Jordanian American while calling him a raghead. Then, there's that case in Pasedena where a crank call about a black robber got the police to shoot the first black kid they ran across.

At some point, America has to start putting the pieces together. Now would be a good time to do it before anyone else gets killed.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to EFerrari (Reply #22)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 12:39 AM

23. the pasadana case

 

The caller stated that the robber was armed. The police caught the right guy (not the first black kid they ran across). They were just quicker on the trigger thinking the guy was armed.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to mactime (Reply #23)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 12:53 AM

30. shoot first, ask questions later

"he was reaching for his waistband"

Notice how often cops and wannabe cops use that excuse to shoot and kill?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to mactime (Reply #23)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 01:14 AM

38. Bullshit.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to EFerrari (Reply #22)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 01:01 AM

34. You don't think it is possible a young wiry guy 10 years younger and 6' 3" could

whip a guy 10 years older and much heavier? It would depend on what kind shape he was in. At 28 most boxers are past their prime. When I was 28 I sure as heck wouldn't have gone up against a wiry young guy 6' 3"10 years younger than me..

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to doc03 (Reply #34)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 01:47 AM

42. adrenalin starts flowing when you are in self defense mode and

fighting for your life.

I don't see any problem with Trayvon fighting back against that racist ugly fucker Liarzim. I don't understand why this is even talked about - it's made to twist it into the kid attacking Zimmerman. By all accounts that is not at all what happened. Zimmerman was stalking Him.

What the hell?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to EFerrari (Reply #22)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 01:12 AM

37. Bottom line is don't rush to judgement before the facts are known, That's what

the courts are for. If it turns out Zimmerman is telling the truth a lot of us are going to be eating crow. The MSNBC commentators are going to look silly. Worse yet Faux and the Limbaugh's will be able to say we told you so.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to doc03 (Reply #37)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 01:16 AM

39. There is no scenario in which Zimmerman shooting Martin is right.

And I don't give a flying f#ck what Fox or Limbaugh say. They are open sewers.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to EFerrari (Reply #39)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 09:46 PM

91. thank you

could not have said it better.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to doc03 (Reply #37)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 01:49 AM

43. you got to be shitting us.

turns out that Zimmerman telling the truth... he can't even tell the same fucking lies consistently.

I think you should work on better tv news channel habits....


Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to doc03 (Reply #37)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 12:21 PM

73. I've been saying the same thing

and have been accused of staunchly defending Zimmerman, which I have not done. I am a fan though, of gathering all the facts I can before I make up my mind. That said, there is a lot people don't know, and don't need to know (The public at large is not the jury), that will be divulged in a courtroom (if it comes to that).

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to EFerrari (Reply #22)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 06:03 AM

49. ? Twice as big ? Martin 6'2", 160, Zimmerman, 5'9", 170

How do you figure twice as big? Or is that something you "heard" in the media?

Just curious.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to shadowrider (Reply #49)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 07:26 AM

50. Wow, Zimmerman keeps losing weight and Martin keeps gaining weight

Every early report puts Zimmerman at 50 pounds heavier.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to mainer (Reply #50)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 10:46 AM

53. In the video of Zimmerman arriving at the police station

he doesn't look anywhere near the 260 lb thug he has been portrayed as. From what I saw he is way closer to 170 lb than 260 lbs. The pictures I have seen of Martin appear to be couple years old, he certainly doesn't appear to be any 6' 3". It looks to me both sides are embellishing this story to fit their own interest. On the 911 recording the cop asked Zimmerman if he was following him and he said yes then the cop said we don't need you to do that and Zimmerman said OK. That sounds like Zimmerman agreed not to follow him. Where is the proof Zimmerman didn't turn around and head for his vehicle? This case will probably go on for months like the OJ trial and we may never know what really happened.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to doc03 (Reply #53)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 10:53 AM

56. Zimmerman was described as 200 pounds

And that phone conversation you refer to continues after that exchange, with ZM breathing loudly as if he's on foot, not to mention the remark he makes that these *** always get away.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to mainer (Reply #56)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 11:03 AM

57. He could have just as well been on foot returning to his vehicle and

said that in frustration thinking Martin was going to get away. So far in this thread Zimmerman's weight has ranged anywhere from 170 lbs to 270 lbs. Wow a 100 range! The facts aren't out and I am not going to judge it either way until they are.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to doc03 (Reply #57)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 02:32 PM

83. So if Zimmerman was returning to his vehicle how did he end up shooting Martin

over a 100 feet AWAY from the road where his vehicle could have been?

NONE of the stories attributed to Zimmerman match where Trayvon's body was laying when the police arrived.



Trayvon's body was found behind the building marked with the "A", close, but not on the sidewalk.

Zimmerman's first story to police was that he was looking for a street sign when Trayvon jumped him. There are no intersections where there would be street signs anywhere near where the body was lying, much less near the closest approach to that point where Zimmerman could have left his car.

His second story (from his father's statements) was that he was looking for street numbers. There are no street numbers on the BACKS of the townhouses.

It's 130 feet from the street at the curve in the road to the intersection of the sidewalk to get to where the body was. It's over 90 feet from the other road to the same point. Accounts and estimates available to the public vary on the exact location of the body up that sidewalk but the distance is between 30 and 90 feet.

So George Zimmerman was between 120 and 220 feet away from his vehicle when he shot Trayvon Martin. How did Zimmerman get that far away from his car if he was NOT stalking Martin?

Between those FACTS and the information from the audio experts that it was most likely Trayvon Martin's voice on the 911 recording begging "Help me" for over 40 seconds, I believe George Zimmerman is a murderer.

I do want Zimmerman to have a trial. That means he must be arrested and charged with his crime. That is all the Martin family has been asking since their first press conference.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to mainer (Reply #50)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 11:34 AM

68. Early reports had him at 250.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to mainer (Reply #50)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 11:57 AM

71. According to the police report (Link included)

Martin - 6'0", 160 lbs. (His family says he was 6'2")

He isn't "gaining weight". It was mistakenly reported at 140 based on years old info. Zimmerman was reported at 250, based on years old info.

http://mit.zenfs.com/102/2012/04/69081607-29132322.pdf

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to shadowrider (Reply #71)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 12:22 PM

74. The autopsy will give us Trayvon's weight

The police report would be merely a visual estimate.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to mainer (Reply #74)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 03:41 PM

87. Agreed

But that may be one of those things we (the public) won't find out about until the trial (if there is one).

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to doc03 (Reply #20)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 12:42 AM

24. Well, that's true

But unless there's some damn compelling evidence we haven't heard yet, it looks bad for a lot of people involved.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Canuckistanian (Reply #24)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 01:02 AM

35. Once arrested there are 175 days to charge Zimmerman. That means 175 days to find evidence beyond

 

a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman did not shoot Trayvon Martin in self defense.

Rushing the arrest could put everything in jeopardy and could result in even more injustice which would enrage people more I imagine.

Then they would be pissed that the Prosecutors mishandled everything and the conspiracy would be that they rushed the arrest so they could let him off.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to dkf (Reply #35)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 01:32 AM

40. Well, let's not rush into anything, then

Wouldn't be prudent, would it?

Remember, arrest doesn't automatically mean guilt. It's just normal police work to arrest suspects, even if the facts are not known.

But that's not the case here, is it?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Canuckistanian (Reply #40)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 01:52 AM

44. Nope because Florida has this specific 175 day law which doesn't seem to be the norm.

 

People that want him arrested now are probably demanding the opposite of what they ought to be clamoring for which is as airtight a case as possible.

It does make me feel like pulling my hair out though.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to doc03 (Reply #20)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 12:30 PM

76. Not enough evidence? ROFL. Now THAT is the absurdity of which the OP was speaking. n/t

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Canuckistanian (Original post)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 12:50 AM

27. sorry, nope, it isnt consuming anything

Unfortunately.

the only news I see about it is on DU or Huffpo. Most people I know dont know a thing about it yet. I wish it would sweep into every living room nationwide. People are shitheads, but most people still believe in law and order, and at least then Zimmy would be in jail.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to pasto76 (Reply #27)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 12:53 AM

29. Really?

From what I see, it's getting PLENTY of attention from the RW elements, all defending Zimmerman, of course.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to pasto76 (Reply #27)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 12:59 AM

33. It consumed the news cycle for awhile.

Not so much anymore.

Life eventually goes on and most folks go back to worrying about their own problems.

Like the three black families in my hometown whose sons were murdered. The killers are still on the loose.

Why isn't that being shown in every living room? Are those kids' lives not worth as much as Trayvon's?

Yes, yes, the situation surrounding the Martin case is certainly interesting and I can see why it has gotten a lot of attention, deservedly so.

But it's funny how the media latches on to one story and runs with it. Like when they choose one missing little white girl to fixate on, even when there's hundreds of other missing children all over the world.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bigwillq (Reply #33)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 10:51 AM

55. Oh really? Then what do you have to say about Oklahoma this morning?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to lonestarnot (Reply #55)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 11:18 AM

65. Oh really what?

I don't get your question.


I'll get back to you on Oklahoma. Haven't heard anything about anything going on in Oklahoma, but I haven't watched the new very much this morning.

Edited: Rallies in Oklahome for Martin?

Yes, the Martin story is still being told across America, but it isn't dominating, at least I don't think so, the news cycles like it did when it first broke.

If that's what you mean by "oh, really and Oklahoma", then that is my answer.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bigwillq (Reply #65)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 11:22 AM

66. Here let me help you out. You don't even have to turn on the TV box. DU has it all! As always.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to lonestarnot (Reply #66)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 11:28 AM

67. Thanks for the link.

I think it's sad. Sadly, there's too much killing in the US on a daily basis.


I wish that all these senseless murders could warrant the same attenion as the Martin case has.
It's good to see this case in Oklahoma is getting some attention. So many others don't.


One of the kids that was murdered in my town got some local coverage. They had a few rallies, and the kid's father has a sign on his lawn asking for help in solving the murder.

But going back to my original statement, I find it interesting that some of these cases get national attention and others don't. I know that's the way things go. Was just making an observation.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Canuckistanian (Original post)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 12:54 AM

31. It highlights the divide in the U.S.

28% will support anything as long as that anything goes against a Liberal. When Zimmerman's father made it a "threat" from the President 28% of the people automatically dig in for the crazy. Bush never fell below that threshold, Joe Arpaio the same, Cheney dropped to about 20% which tells me some people (mainly right wing females) saw the light

Crazy assed part is that 90+ percent of those in the 28% would call themselves Christians if you asked them to describe themselves in three words.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Canuckistanian (Original post)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 12:58 AM

32. the united states of insanity

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Canuckistanian (Original post)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 01:02 AM

36. I know it hurts now...

But we all have to pull together to help this kid and the millions of other folks in this and and every country. I rarely post here. Been online here since 2002, and love you guys. But this, this is a changeable moment. This kid, his heart, the tears on his face, the heartache, the pain...it all illustrates the hatred and racism in this country that has exploded in the last decade. Ah, my kids, they are blonde and blue eyed...it won't happen to them, or to me, but to their friends, who are beautiful, and of color, it may happen. So, how do we all stop this, and make it better? First, take Zimmerman and put him in the spotlight and make him say in lights and camera what happened in his view, then play the tapes, then deal with the real issues of....racism...speculation...carry concealed weapons issue...this should never have happened. I feel for that young man, and his family...I imagine his last moments...his family, his fear, his helplessness. This is NOT what America is about. Let's make it better. Let's honor this young American man and many others...by our actions. Love and Light...Americana.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Americana (Reply #36)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 01:40 AM

41. I don't understand the whole "tears on his face" thing. Trayvon's own father

"noted that on the night of Martin’s death it was raining and his son was justified in wearing his hoodie. Martin said:

“Your apology is accepted… Let me just add one thing with the wearing of the hoodie. I don’t think America knows that, in fact, at the time of the incident when he initially made the call, it was raining (emphasis mine). So Trayvon had every right to have on his hood. He was protecting himself from the rain. So if being suspicious, walking in the rain with your hoodie on is a crime, then I guess the world is doing something wrong.


How does one distinguish between raindrops and tears? This for me is just one more instance of what happens when too many people speculate about the same thing... It's kind of like the "telephone" game.

Read more at http://www.inquisitr.com/214462/geraldo-rivera-apologizes-to-trayvon-martins-parents-video/#Cg8QzRxCIuldrtmj.99

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Canuckistanian (Original post)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 02:22 AM

45. The patients are in charge of this asylum we call our country.

It's pathetic really. However, this might shed some light on the deep seated racism of much of our country. We have a whole political party that thrives on race baiting. If we finally can uproot that racism and bringing injustices like this out in the light might help do it, then maybe we can get our country back on track because that racist party will have nothing to offer it's voters anymore.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Canuckistanian (Original post)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 07:29 AM

51. What I can't believe is that there are ZM defenders on DU

Who are these people who think it "might" be justified for a guy with a gun to kill an unarmed teen?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to mainer (Reply #51)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 11:12 AM

62. I haven't seen any Zimmerman defenders here. At least not in GD.

I've seen several who are arguing that this is a complex matter because of the SYG and 'Right to a speedy trial' laws in Florida.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Kaleva (Reply #62)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 11:42 AM

69. You haven't seen ANY Zimmerman defenders on DU?

You might want to look in the mirror.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to mainer (Reply #69)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 12:23 PM

75. And you might want to look at my posting history on this subject.

I've stated that if Zimmerman had followed his training and did what the police dispatcher told him, Trayvon would be alive today. I've said that the SYG law sucks and the citizens of Florida ought to work to change it. I've even started a thread where I said that Zimmerman was a vigilante and not a Neighborhood Watchman.

Here's a link to that thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002515036

You didn't post in it but may have read it. What is your opinion on what I said? Would you give it a rec?

Your comment:

"What I can't believe is that there are ZM defenders on DU
Who are these people who think it "might" be justified for a guy with a gun to kill an unarmed teen?"

I can't read minds but even then I've not had the impression that the poster was thinking that it "might" be justified for a guy with a gun to kill an unarmed teenager.

I've seen several members, and I'm one of them, who have pointed out that the SYG law in Florida makes this a complex matter. I'm also of the opinion that if this had happened in any number of other states, Zimmerman would be in jail right now facing at least a manslaughter charge.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Kaleva (Reply #75)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 12:33 PM

77. I've been following your posts on numerous Trayvon threads

And you're always the first to say "Zimmerman is justified if Trayvon hit him" and "The fact ZM was carrying is irrelevant". You REPEATEDLY say that Trayvon might have been the aggressor. You REPEATEDLY give ZM the benefit of every single doubt.

I don't even have to read your posts anymore to know you're going to give ZM some love.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to mainer (Reply #77)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 12:51 PM

79. So, what di you think of my thread that I gave you a link to?

Last edited Sat Apr 7, 2012, 03:07 PM - Edit history (1)

No comment at all on it?

Here's the link to it again:

"Zimmerman was a vigilante and not a Neighborhood Watchman."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002515036

Your comment:

"And you're always the first to say "Zimmerman is justified if Trayvon hit him""

Could you provide a link to one of my posts where I supposedly made that comment. You won't because I've never said such a thing.

An excerpt from your post where you supposedly quote me:

".....and "The fact ZM was carrying is irrelevant". "

This is what I actually said:

"Zimmerman having a gun on him may be irrelevent." Then I go on and explain why I think it might be. No where have I said that it is irrelevant.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=528997

Note the difference.

Edit: If you are going to quote me, I ask that you just cut and paste my comment rather then use your own words and then put quotation marks around them. I don't mind people paraphrasing what I said but don't try make it look like you are quoting me when you aren't.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Canuckistanian (Original post)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 07:35 AM

52. I live in Georgia, and you should see all the Facebook

posts defending GZ on our local news stations' pages. The latest gem? Black men kill each other all the time, so why focus on G Z?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink



Response to Canuckistanian (Original post)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 12:05 PM

72. Oh the "system" is working just fine.

It's keeping minorities suppressed and demonized. It's keeping them "other". It's creating divisions in America.

It was started deliberately by the earliest white male landowners to keep the poor lower classes from joining forces (blacks & whites) and rising up against them.

It's perpetuated. It's institutionalized. It IS the system. And we need to change it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Canuckistanian (Original post)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 02:34 PM

84. I think the problem is the rush to label it racism.

 

Here's a guy who had a restraining order against him by an ex-girlfriend. Unless she's also Black, it sounds like he has a violence/impulse issue rather than a racist issue.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to agenda 21. (Reply #84)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 10:10 PM

92. There is no doubt he has violence/impulse/aggression issues

and I doubt the girl he threw down and injured her ankle or the domestic charges, likely both women, were black either ... just a guess. But in these cases even the assault on a police officer, what I believe is the distinction here, is that they were not strangers walking on the street minding their own business. He was in a position of authority whether by size or relationship or employment, and "flipped out".

I do think focussing on the racial implications make it more difficult to convict him as they are more difficult to determine and serve to rile up a substantial majority of the public, particularly in Sanford. Prove it. Not an eyewitness, an ear witness, or apparently any 911 or concurrent cell phone calls can prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that he was a racist.

Zimmerman has had to prove nothing other than discussing his "feelings" of being threatened ... which clearly he's had many times. Prove him wrong. Tough to do... even the eyewitness and the other 5 witnesses listed on the police report can't testify to the fact that he did or did not feel threatened.

To me, that's the real insidious nature of SYG ... burden of proof is an emotional negative ... that someone did or did not "feel" threatened.

I'm waiting for the "insanity" defense. Unfortunately, that's easier to prove and more likely than any of the other pleas. Just get a good ol' boy psychiatrist in or around Sanford and do a psychological study. At least, hopefully, they can at least lock him up.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Canuckistanian (Original post)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 02:49 PM

85. Here's another one: Americans set up torture camps and nothing is done about it

 

Corruption is corruption, it feeds on itself and grows if left unchecked.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Canuckistanian (Original post)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 03:54 PM

88. Tens of millions of Americans have lost their mind: the proof lies in what they say, what they do,

and how they vote against their own interests. Then there are the general garden-variety extremist nuts, be it right-wing, bigoted, racist, anti-abortion, religious, gun et al ad infinitum.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Canuckistanian (Original post)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 09:28 PM

89. yeah, it's pretty whack.

especially the part about people pretending it isn't MURDER. grrr

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink

Reply to this thread