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Fri Apr 6, 2012, 06:17 PM

Prejudice against whites is not the same as prejudice against blacks

Prejudice against men is not the same as prejudice against women.

Prejudice against straight people is not the same as prejudice against those who are not.

Most here will grant that judging someone on the basis of their innate characteristics (race, ethnicity, orientation,gender) is wrong. In that sense, prejudice is the same...but there's more to it and it makes all the difference.

If one is prejudiced against a white person, the larger culture is not backing that up.

For example, in the case of Trayvon Martin, it's not just that he was suspected and then killed as a result of prejudice by one person against African Americans, it's that in the aftermath, media coverage and societal reaction included vicious stereotyping that sought to justify his death. That was possible because such stereotyping is believed and accepted so widely.

And in the case of Sandra Fluke, her health care needs were viewed differently because she was a woman. While it would be wrong if a man's health care needs were discounted by an individual simply because of his gender, that would be wrong. But what wouldn't happen to a man, that did happen to Sandra Fluke was that her personal life was widely used to suggest that she didn't have a right to health care. Denial of health care to a man would not be accepted by society at large on the basis of whether or not he has sex, but for this woman, it was widely accepted as relevant.

All this said, my argument is that when prejudice is dominant against minority groups (or groups treated in similar fashion), individual discrimination is not the exception, it's symptomatic of a societal problem and experienced by people as institutional discrimination because these feelings are so widely held.

And even if a belief isn't held universally, that there is s substantial or even dominant belief in racial, gender or other stereotypes makes it that much harder for the victim of discrimination to overcome the effects of individual prejudice against them.

That is why though discrimination against people when they are white or male or straight, while wrong, often doesn't have the impact on the individual that it does on a minority individual.

This is why it's important to understand the difference between individual prejudice and widespread racism and prejudice. The latter is much more powerful and has made second class citizens of a large percentage of Americans who live with fewer economic opportunities and greater mistreatment by society simply because of the color, gender or other ways that they were born.

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Arrow 147 replies Author Time Post
Reply Prejudice against whites is not the same as prejudice against blacks (Original post)
CreekDog Apr 2012 OP
OccupyTheIRS Apr 2012 #1
CreekDog Apr 2012 #6
obamanut2012 Apr 2012 #10
Ecumenist Apr 2012 #11
saras Apr 2012 #134
OccupyTheIRS Apr 2012 #136
malaise Apr 2012 #2
uponit7771 Apr 2012 #5
provis99 Apr 2012 #36
CreekDog Apr 2012 #44
malaise Apr 2012 #50
cherokeeprogressive Apr 2012 #81
OccupyTheIRS Apr 2012 #89
Major Nikon Apr 2012 #132
malaise Apr 2012 #135
hughee99 Apr 2012 #142
obamanut2012 Apr 2012 #3
quinnox Apr 2012 #4
CreekDog Apr 2012 #7
obamanut2012 Apr 2012 #13
Ecumenist Apr 2012 #15
quinnox Apr 2012 #20
Ecumenist Apr 2012 #21
CreekDog Apr 2012 #24
obamanut2012 Apr 2012 #26
quinnox Apr 2012 #29
JonLP24 Apr 2012 #52
Number23 Apr 2012 #125
Skip Intro Apr 2012 #67
CreekDog Apr 2012 #74
Skip Intro Apr 2012 #95
CreekDog Apr 2012 #111
Skip Intro Apr 2012 #114
CreekDog Apr 2012 #117
CreekDog Apr 2012 #124
Skip Intro Apr 2012 #128
CreekDog Apr 2012 #129
Skip Intro Apr 2012 #130
Skip Intro Apr 2012 #139
CreekDog Apr 2012 #140
Skip Intro Apr 2012 #144
CreekDog Apr 2012 #141
Skip Intro Apr 2012 #143
mactime Apr 2012 #8
obamanut2012 Apr 2012 #14
CreekDog Apr 2012 #16
Ecumenist Apr 2012 #22
CreekDog Apr 2012 #27
Ecumenist Apr 2012 #30
Mariana Apr 2012 #61
Ecumenist Apr 2012 #65
mzteris Apr 2012 #9
gaspee Apr 2012 #17
mzteris Apr 2012 #94
OneGrassRoot Apr 2012 #33
Number23 Apr 2012 #127
mzteris Apr 2012 #138
gaspee Apr 2012 #12
CreekDog Apr 2012 #47
TeamsterDem Apr 2012 #18
mactime Apr 2012 #40
CreekDog Apr 2012 #45
TeamsterDem Apr 2012 #46
CreekDog Apr 2012 #48
bart95 Apr 2012 #57
TeamsterDem Apr 2012 #58
EFerrari Apr 2012 #59
TeamsterDem Apr 2012 #63
EFerrari Apr 2012 #64
TeamsterDem Apr 2012 #66
CreekDog Apr 2012 #80
EFerrari Apr 2012 #108
TeamsterDem Apr 2012 #109
CreekDog Apr 2012 #71
TeamsterDem Apr 2012 #83
CreekDog Apr 2012 #84
TeamsterDem Apr 2012 #87
Skip Intro Apr 2012 #145
KamaAina Apr 2012 #19
noiretextatique Apr 2012 #105
meow2u3 Apr 2012 #23
joshcryer Apr 2012 #28
CreekDog Apr 2012 #31
Ecumenist Apr 2012 #34
Gormy Cuss Apr 2012 #37
2ndAmForComputers Apr 2012 #110
Gormy Cuss Apr 2012 #121
redqueen Apr 2012 #25
Zalatix Apr 2012 #32
DLevine Apr 2012 #35
Tuesday Afternoon Apr 2012 #38
JoePhilly Apr 2012 #39
CreekDog Apr 2012 #42
JoePhilly Apr 2012 #68
Ecumenist Apr 2012 #69
CreekDog Apr 2012 #79
Ecumenist Apr 2012 #88
Starry Messenger Apr 2012 #41
jp11 Apr 2012 #43
EFerrari Apr 2012 #62
lumberjack_jeff Apr 2012 #49
CreekDog Apr 2012 #51
lumberjack_jeff Apr 2012 #53
CreekDog Apr 2012 #54
lumberjack_jeff Apr 2012 #55
CreekDog Apr 2012 #78
lumberjack_jeff Apr 2012 #91
CreekDog Apr 2012 #122
eridani Apr 2012 #100
CreekDog Apr 2012 #126
eridani Apr 2012 #133
Mister Ed Apr 2012 #56
eridani Apr 2012 #101
varelse Apr 2012 #60
WRabbit Apr 2012 #70
fishwax Apr 2012 #75
noiretextatique Apr 2012 #107
fishwax Apr 2012 #115
CreekDog Apr 2012 #77
Bjorn Against Apr 2012 #72
Zax2me Apr 2012 #73
fishwax Apr 2012 #76
Vattel Apr 2012 #82
CreekDog Apr 2012 #85
redqueen Apr 2012 #90
cherokeeprogressive Apr 2012 #86
bart95 Apr 2012 #93
CreekDog Apr 2012 #131
OccupyTheIRS Apr 2012 #92
Skip Intro Apr 2012 #96
OccupyTheIRS Apr 2012 #97
CreekDog Apr 2012 #103
OccupyTheIRS Apr 2012 #112
eridani Apr 2012 #98
CreekDog Apr 2012 #102
noiretextatique Apr 2012 #106
madokie Apr 2012 #99
noiretextatique Apr 2012 #104
OccupyTheIRS Apr 2012 #113
CreekDog Apr 2012 #118
OccupyTheIRS Apr 2012 #120
antigone382 Apr 2012 #123
Egalitarian Thug Apr 2012 #116
noiretextatique Apr 2012 #119
Daniel537 Apr 2012 #137
Name removed Jul 2014 #146
The Magistrate Jul 2014 #147

Response to CreekDog (Original post)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 06:31 PM

1. I'm not buying it...

 

I fight prejudice in all forms. It is not okay to say one kind of prejudice is better than another. If I go to an area where I am a minority race and start insulting others it is better than if I go to an area where I am a majority race and do it? No way, we can't judge people based on the actions of others.

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Response to OccupyTheIRS (Reply #1)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 06:45 PM

6. I didn't say you should accept either one

And neither do I accept either one.

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Response to OccupyTheIRS (Reply #1)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 06:47 PM

10. That's not what the OP is saying

It is different when it is aimed at someone who is in the majority/power group. It doesn't make it right, but it is different, because of the effect is has on society and how it reflects on our society.

Laws aren't being passed forbidding heterosexual marriage, or making vasectomies so difficult and stigmatized that men have to go to veterinarians to get snipped.

Why is Trayvon Martin, a young man well-liked and respected by his teachers and neighbors, labeled a gangbanging druggie thug out of the box? Would a young white man dressed the same way (ie like an average teen) killed for no reason by a black cop wannabe be labeled that way? Would his killer not be charged? Would be be John Doed?

Targeting the minority/the group not in power takes away even m,ore of that group's power., and reinforces the stereotype. Institutional racism, homophobia, sexism, anti-Semitism, xenophobia.

Props to Creekdog.

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Response to OccupyTheIRS (Reply #1)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 06:48 PM

11. Plan on leaving the planet? Because unless you're another species of sentient hominid,

YOU'RE A HUMAN BEING!!! PART OF THE HUMAN RACE, just a variant but still completely genetically compatible with any other human ON THE PLANET.

Although, people shouldn't be judged based on the actions of others, people who look like me ARE all day, everyday! What the OP said is correct. Hatred and prejudging, (prejudice) are the same but they are expressed toward everyone in the same way or with the same reinforcement.

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Response to OccupyTheIRS (Reply #1)

Mon Apr 9, 2012, 04:18 AM

134. The difference is THEY WILL STOP YOU or THEY CAN'T STOP YOU

 

If a white goes to Nigeria and starts tossing the n-word around, they''ll pretty much deserve what happens to them. But they're not being racist because they don't have Nigerian institutions and the Nigerian government on their side, insisting with police power that folks damned well are exactly what they were called.

Now go to Sanford, Florida, and start tossing the n-word around, and the local police are on your side, a frighteningly large proportion of the public is on your side, the county and state governments are on your side. it makes a difference.

And when the in-power side uses tanks and other military hardware it makes a hell of a big difference.

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Response to saras (Reply #134)

Mon Apr 9, 2012, 12:16 PM

136. What???

 

The N-word is only racist depending on where it is used?

So, If I go to the most solidly black city in the country, with a majority black city council, police force, mayor, and judges, I am not being racist if I start using the n-word? what on earth kind of sense does that make? And how are the police in this country on "our side" if we are racists?

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Response to CreekDog (Original post)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 06:38 PM

2. Thre is a fundamental difference between racism and prejudice

I might dislike a particular ethnic group but as long as I do not deny them social, economic or political equality then I am not a racist - I would be prejudiced.

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Response to malaise (Reply #2)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 06:43 PM

5. GREAT explanation !

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Response to malaise (Reply #2)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 07:17 PM

36. you're just as dead if you're killed by a prejudiced individual as killed by a racist.

 

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Response to provis99 (Reply #36)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 08:06 PM

44. yeah but if you're black Fox News will report that you deserved it

and that does count for something, no?

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Response to provis99 (Reply #36)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 08:57 PM

50. True but until we remove the institutional racism

people will continue to be prejudiced and the racial profiling will continue

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Response to provis99 (Reply #36)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 01:43 AM

81. Or if by accident, no?

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Response to provis99 (Reply #36)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 11:16 AM

89. Exactly.

 

If it doesn't matter to the person being hurt, it doesn't matter to anyone else. Motives don't matter, only actions.

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Response to malaise (Reply #2)

Mon Apr 9, 2012, 02:26 AM

132. You can be a racist without denying anyone anything

Racism just means you believe one or some races are superior to others.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #132)

Mon Apr 9, 2012, 05:57 AM

135. No it does not - that is prejudice

When that is spread institutionally it becomes racist.

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Response to malaise (Reply #135)

Wed Apr 11, 2012, 04:46 PM

142. I thought when racism spred institutionally, it was called Institutional Racism.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racism

Racism is prejudice based on race (rather than other factors).

racism
1: a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
2
: racial prejudice or discrimination

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Response to CreekDog (Original post)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 06:39 PM

3. Excellent OP!

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Response to CreekDog (Original post)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 06:41 PM

4. oh great, so now its ok to be prejudice or racist, as long as it

 

is against us white folk? Or at least, not as bad, as the traditional racism. Give me a friggin' break.

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Response to quinnox (Reply #4)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 06:46 PM

7. My OP said prejudice is wrong.

Against white, straight or whomever.

What were you reading?

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Response to quinnox (Reply #4)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 06:49 PM

13. The OP said nothing like that

It just talked about the power dynamic.

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Response to quinnox (Reply #4)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 06:51 PM

15. Can you read? THAT IS NOT WHAT WHAT THE OP SAID...AT.ALL!!!

What is your hang up, noone is pushing hatred toward ANYONE period. You seem to be showing signs of a persecution complex. You're not the only white person on the planet. I don't hate you and I'm pretty sure noone else here does either. What is wrong with you?

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Response to Ecumenist (Reply #15)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 06:55 PM

20. maybe being bombarded by threads saying essentially how terrible white people and white men are

 

for the past week has led me to becoming irritated by this crap. The OP is making a distinction between one prejudice and another, its right in the title of the OP for gods sakes and then followed up with arguments for why they think this way in the OP!

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Response to quinnox (Reply #20)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 06:56 PM

21. You need to go back and read the post carefully because that IS NOT WHAT WAS SAID NOR

IMPLIED...AT ALL!!

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Response to quinnox (Reply #20)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 07:01 PM

24. i made it clear that both are wrong, but there is an additional injury when one's experience

is compounded when society joins in to back up the individual act of discrimination.

i don't know why you have to reduce my argument to hating white people. i'm white. i don't hate white people and i don't hate myself. if you think that's what i'm saying, then your frustration is stopping you from reading what i actually wrote.

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Response to quinnox (Reply #20)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 07:04 PM

26. No, the OP is not saying any of that

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #26)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 07:09 PM

29. oh hell, I'm going to back out of this thread

 

before I really start to get mad, because I disagree with you people and you guys think yours is the only valid interpretation of the OP. I can't argue with that kind of thinking, and I'm done. This thread has potential to really piss me off so I'll bow out.

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Response to quinnox (Reply #20)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 09:04 PM

52. Many of the posts (I think we're both talking about the same ones) weren't declaring

white people as terrible, just that (my overstatement) black people don't have any troubles and saying so is racist against white people. Saying that there is white (male) privilege is not the same thing as saying white (men) are terrible.

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Response to Ecumenist (Reply #15)

Sun Apr 8, 2012, 09:54 PM

125. "Can you read?" "What is wrong with you?"

We'll take rhetorical questions with obvious answers for $200. Thanks.

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Response to quinnox (Reply #4)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 10:39 PM

67. Nothing new. Where have you been? nt

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Response to Skip Intro (Reply #67)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 12:07 AM

74. i don't think i could convince someone who defended Ron Paul's newsletters as not being his views

that racism exists in any shape or form at all.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #74)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 03:53 PM

95. Veering off topic and misrepresenting my views do little to help your case.

It is diversionary to bring this up but since you did, I will say that on Paul's newsletters I questioned whether to believe him that he did not write the racist articles, or to believe others who claimed that he must have. I sought proof - I sought the truth.

Back to your thread, please let us know when you are finished figuring out which of us are more equal and which of us are less equal.

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Response to Skip Intro (Reply #95)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 07:56 PM

111. the reason your statements saying Paul isn't racist are relevant

(and you weren't neutral, as you're claiming to be)

the reason it's relevant is that in the context of a thread about racism and in the context of your posting the term "race card" at virtually every mention of racism...

that you are beyond reason and rationality on this topic.

you reflexively doubt every mention of racism and where people have seen racism against Obama you have called that the "race card" in every instance I've seen.

so yeah, you have another agenda and isn't equality here. your history shows everyone that.

from one long-timer to another: i ain't stupid.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #111)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 10:31 PM

114. Dude, do you have me confused with someone else? WTF are you talking about?


Please show me where I've said Paul was or wasn't racist.

Please show me where I've used the term "race card" on this board ever, much less "at virtually every mention of racism..."

Actually show me more than one to at least appear to substantiate your "every mention" claim.

I don't recall ever using that term.

And that's important because for some reason you appear to be more focused on evaluating me, rather than the issue at hand, and passing judgment on me.

And you don't know what the hell you're talking about. The problem appears to be that I dare to be honest, I try to withhold judgment until I have sufficient facts, and I think everyone should be treated equally, and that really irritates you for some reason, and you react by trying to twist that into me being some crusader for injustice.

You are really slamming my character, implying some harsh stuff. That's fine, speak your mind. I love free speech and I don't like the alert button. But have the guts to come right out and say what you want to say. Use the word you want to use so badly. Don't be a coward. You're salivating at the thought. Couldn't be more obvious.

I know why you don't, though. You can't back up the bs you're saying about me.

Short of an apology, why don't you just take a deep breath and back off.

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Response to Skip Intro (Reply #114)

Sun Apr 8, 2012, 02:21 AM

117. If i'm wrong i'll apologize here

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Response to Skip Intro (Reply #114)

Sun Apr 8, 2012, 09:13 PM

124. Im back to confirm that you used the term "race card" several times in reference to Obama

Why you cant imagine or remember doing that as well as the theme you were posting seems odd to me.

Also since you said that was BS and it isnt, you should correct yourself as vigorously as you tried to correct me in this thread.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #124)

Sun Apr 8, 2012, 10:07 PM

128. Oh man. This is surreal.


Links please.

Give a link. Provide a quote.

When and in what context?

What does it prove?

Btw.

What are you accusing me of? And what would my use of that term prove?

What exactly is your deal with me?

I really think you have some misplaced feelings.

If people on discussion boards can't express views outside of agreement with yours, what is the point of a discussion board?

Seriously, take a break.


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Response to Skip Intro (Reply #128)

Sun Apr 8, 2012, 10:13 PM

129. You said it was bs when i pointed out you used the term

You didnt need to say that so unequivocally. You could have explained yourself, etc. instead you basically called me a liar which is easily disproved.

If you hadnt called me a liar we wouldnt be discussing why you have denied using avterm you really did use.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #129)

Sun Apr 8, 2012, 10:21 PM

130. Dude, look, you are just spouting bs. I'll prove it -


You say I deny unequivocally that I ever used the term "race card" on this board.

The bs part is that I never made such a claim.

I asked for links, which I still haven't gotten, and said I didn't recall having used that term.

If you provide links to me having used that term, we can have a conversation about it. So far you haven't.

But you are lying when you say that I said I never used that term. Isn't so. I asked for proof that I did, and said I didn't recall using it, but I never denied I'd used it.

You're talking bs about me and defending it.

Its cool, I'll run with it.

Next.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #124)

Wed Apr 11, 2012, 03:51 PM

139. Three Days, No Links, proves you full of it, yes?

Next time you attack somebody's character and hurl wild accusations you might want to have your facts straight first.

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Response to Skip Intro (Reply #139)

Wed Apr 11, 2012, 04:06 PM

140. they are easy to find, go find them, look at 2008 in particular

they are there.

quite easy to find actually.

you know, you could at least own it. certainly your reaction to Obama is relevant to this discussion.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #140)

Wed Apr 11, 2012, 05:26 PM

144. Lordy. Post 143. nt

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Response to Skip Intro (Reply #139)

Wed Apr 11, 2012, 04:14 PM

141. Skip Intro: "Oh give the fucking race card a rest, will you?..."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5725641&mesg_id=5725873

how many do you want before you stop trying to call me a liar for saying you said it?

one, two, three? a dozen?

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #141)

Wed Apr 11, 2012, 05:24 PM

143. Lol - CreekDog, are you on drugs?


You accused me of using "the term "race card" at virtually every mention of racism... " which is bs.

I said in response that I didn't recall using that term. One reason I didn't recall is because it was during the heated primary wars four years ago, and in reference to what I saw as insinuations from some Obama supporters then that other DUers who supported Hillary were racist. (You know the kind of insinuation, you made a very similar one against me upthread, just didn't have the guts to come out and say it.)

You said I used it at virtually every mention of racism. You had to go back four years to find an example. Please, stop embarrassing yourself.

But let me ask you, so what if I have used that term? What does that prove? What are you trying to say? Just say it.

You also said I said Paul isn't racist, with no links to back that charge either.

But here's where you almost come out and say what you are too afraid to say - you said that "so yeah, you have another agenda and isn't equality here..."

CreekDog, your as full of it today as you were when you began attacking me. You have absolutely no basis on which to hurl such accusations at me, to assault my character in such a way, and you're like a fish out of water trying to justify your bs.

What is your problem, and why don't you just come out and say what you mean instead of being so timid?

Please, bring it on.

Or is this all some attempt to divert attention from your ridiculous OP? Btw, have you figured out which of us are more equal and which of us are less equal, when racism is ok and when it isn't?


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Response to CreekDog (Original post)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 06:46 PM

8. Oh poor me!

 

Either prejudice and racism are wrong or they are not wrong. Let's stop it with the whole 'I have it worse than everybody else' whining.

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Response to mactime (Reply #8)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 06:50 PM

14. Creekdog is a white, straight male

And, his OP didn't say what you think it said.

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Response to mactime (Reply #8)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 06:51 PM

16. i did say they are wrong, are people not reading my post?

i think i was very clear in saying it's wrong.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #16)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 06:58 PM

22. CreekDog, I understood what you were trying to say and most of the poster did. Some, however

refuse to understand for their own reasons. I've been seeing more and more of these types of comments that are coming out of left field.

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Response to Ecumenist (Reply #22)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 07:05 PM

27. I'm actually a bit surprised with the viciousness and ferocity by apparent progressives

at the long and widely accepted fact of societal bias and institutional racism/discrimination and its effects.

such ideas don't excuse any kind of bias against people, they just show how much more powerful they are when lots and lots of people get together to enforce a stereotype.

thanks for posting.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #27)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 07:09 PM

30. Exactly, The latent bigots are surfacing in the wake of Trayvon's murder and as far as posting.....

anytime. I like you, (well, what I can gather from a forum) and read your posts with pleasure.

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Response to Ecumenist (Reply #22)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 10:22 PM

61. Out of left field?

Seems to me they're coming out of right field. If you know what I mean.

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Response to Mariana (Reply #61)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 10:32 PM

65. Yes, I do know what you mean. It's just sad but I suppose, it's better that "they" are unmasked so

that they can be seem for what they REALLY are.

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Response to CreekDog (Original post)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 06:47 PM

9. society itself, the institutions that comprise our society

is prejudiced FOR the white straight male.

Honey, it's like trying to describe what it's like to be pregnant to a man. They ain't nevah gonna get it.

(And deep down, I don't think they want to.)

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Response to mzteris (Reply #9)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 06:52 PM

17. No, they don't want to

Because maybe they might then have to acknowledge that while they might not cause the oppression of others, they sure do benefit from being part of the "special" class responsible for the oppression.

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Response to gaspee (Reply #17)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 11:55 AM

94. exactly.

They want to believe they got that job, promotion, raise, nice house, special treatment - cause THEY themselves are "special" and they 'worked hard". And maybe they did "work hard", but that guy standing right next them probably had to work ten times as hard to even GET THERE and still get paid less, get passed over, and ignored at any store requiring someone to wait on you in lieu of them running to the white guy who walked in 15 minutes after you did.

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Response to mzteris (Reply #9)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 07:13 PM

33. Yep. White, straight, Christian males...

It is systemic.

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Response to mzteris (Reply #9)

Sun Apr 8, 2012, 10:01 PM

127. "They ain't nevah gonna get it."

You are absolutely right. The ignorance is astounding. But ignorance can be overcome. It's the DENIAL that is the real issue here.

I had a conversation with a poster that said point blank that "white people as a whole did not benefit from slavery" and that the only whites who've mistreated blacks in America were rich ones. These were just a few of the gems that flowed from his/her fingers. How in the hell are you supposed to have anything resembling an intelligent conversation or find common ground with someone so ASTOUNDINGLY ignorant and who has no interest in becoming anything otherwise?

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Response to Number23 (Reply #127)

Mon Apr 9, 2012, 08:08 PM

138. oh good lord -

AMERICA WAS BUILT ON THE BACKS OF SLAVES!!

And continued to built on the backs of disenfranchised blacks, and all the new immigrants (who eventually assimilated and themselves discriminated - pecking order, doncha know).

It struck me the other day, how we tore families apart, husbands from their wives, fathers from their children - and we're STILL DOING THAT. Some would argue that the original was that Welfare was instituted perpetuated the "childless father" syndrome. Now it's the disparate treatment in lack of (good paying) jobs and opportunity, coupled with increased criminal persecution. Educational poverty and white corporations who are totally pushing this whole "gangsta" rap video mentality. They make money and the create a whole generation of poor kids who think it's '"cool" to do drugs, sell drugs, and disrespect women. Hell disrespect anyone without a gun.

If people don't believe that it's the institutionalized racism in this country that is contributing to the crime rate and poor graduation rate and high incarceration rate and fatherless children rate, then I have some swampland in FL to sell them.

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Response to CreekDog (Original post)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 06:48 PM

12. I don't knowwhy you bother.

Some peole are either too stupid, or too willfully ignorant to acknowledge the impact of institutional and societal racism.

And the hatred of your oppressor sometimes comes out as hatred of the entire group your oppressor is a member of. That does not equal reverse racism.

I somtimes hate men as a class when I get emotionally run down by the misogyny I am subject to as a female. Sometimes I hate straight people when a particularly nasty spate of violence against GLBT or when legalized discrimination is reafirmed by the courts or the court of public opinion.

When I hate men or straights because of the oppression I am subject to as female, GLBT and poor, I don't have the power to affect their lives. I may be wrong to feel that way but I'm not oppressing anyone.

Good luck getting people who don't want to see the difference to see it.

I don't even bother any more.

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Response to gaspee (Reply #12)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 08:27 PM

47. good point about hatred against the oppressor not being the same



i don't know why i bother with this topic either. i tried before, on a slightly different angle of it, but that one was little noticed:

Why the Martin case can be about racism, regardless of Zimmerman's race/ethnicity

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002490734

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Response to CreekDog (Original post)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 06:53 PM

18. There is no acceptable form of bias or prejudice

Any person prejudiced against any other group of persons is a moron. It's all the same; there is no relativism about it.

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #18)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 07:44 PM

40. Well said

 

If you have to qualify absolutes like 'racism is wrong' you know you are on the wrong track.
Some other examples where adding a 'but' is not a good idea and can't possible be acceptable would be:
Rape is wrong, but....
Setting somebody on fire is wrong, but...

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Response to mactime (Reply #40)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 08:10 PM

45. if a thousand people are doing something wrong isn't it worse than if one person is?

don't you get it?

it's not that complicated.

prejudice against blacks is wrong and it's being done by many more people than those doing it to whites.

there's just mathematically more wrong being done to certain groups than to others.

it's all bad, but to a group that's historically been discriminated against, it's just frankly, harming them in ways that we can statistically see has left them more impoverished, more discriminated against, more harmed than the white population.

wrong is wrong, yes. and more wrongs are worse than less wrongs.

so many white people are threatened by what this one white person is saying. i don't get it.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #45)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 08:20 PM

46. The frequency with which something is done doesn't make it better or worse

It would be just as wrong if, for example, I refused to hire a black person as if they refused to hire me - if that decision was made on racial grounds. That it's statistically more likely that a white person will discriminate against a black person doesn't make it worse, but instead more prevalent. All forms of discrimination are equally wrong, no matter the frequency or "accepted" nature of it.

Any idiot who discriminates against any group of people is just that: an idiot. There are no "worse" idiots, just idiots.

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #46)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 08:28 PM

48. then why do we study the Holocaust?

come on.

it's all bad. and yes, more of it is in fact, worse.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #48)


Response to CreekDog (Reply #48)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 10:07 PM

58. I don't study the holocaust. And don't attempt to link your argument to the noble cause of ...

the anti-Nazi movement and, ultimately, war. That blacks might be treated disparately is wrong, but unless you're putting them in ovens and conducting horrific "scientific" experiments on them doesn't equate their struggle to that of WWII-era Jews; the two things aren't comparable. That you would try to make such a comparison suggests a rather hyperbolic approach to argument, and simultaneously suggests you're not altogether capable of making a cogent point.

What you appear to be arguing is quite apart from the way you phrased it initially; e.g. you seem to be arguing that institutional racism needs to be dealt with - a point with which I think almost everyone agrees. But you phrased it in a way seeming to suggest that one form of discrimination isn't as bad as another, something you're not getting much traction with because, frankly, no one could agree with that as an abstract statement. It's absurd, frankly, something I think you've now noticed but are attempting to shift your argument so that it doesn't look quite as silly as it did when stated.

Your argument has the logical equivalent of saying that it was more wrong for the Nazis to kill millions of Jews than it was for Ted Bundy to murder those girls. I don't distinguish between homicidal psychopaths: Both killers (the collective Nazis and Ted Bundy) were equally atrocious, although admittedly one - by sheer size and dint of government/military power - did have the effect of killing more people. Yet I'm betting if you spoke to a relative left behind after Ted Bundy murdered one of their beloved that they would probably not see him as a "better" evil than the Nazis.

The obvious reality is that any sort of discrimination is intolerable and wrong, no matter who is doing it.

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #58)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 10:18 PM

59. No, you are misreading.

Creekdog said that institutionalized racism is more impactful and he is right.

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Response to EFerrari (Reply #59)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 10:24 PM

63. He said some discrimination isn't the same as other discrimination

An absolutely absurd point. All discrimination is wrong. Period. Anyone who argues otherwise is powerfully stupid.

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #63)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 10:28 PM

64. It isn't and that's so self evident

I can't even believe anyone is arguing with it.

He also said discrimination is wrong.

Are you not able to hold both of those ideas at the same time?

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Response to EFerrari (Reply #64)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 10:35 PM

66. Don't get smarmy

He said in explicit terms that when some groups discriminate that it's not the same. Those were his words, and they don't make a lot of sense. That you choose to overlook that part of it doesn't mean it isn't there. Hell the title of the OP is "prejudice against whites is not the same as as prejudice against blacks."

All prejudice is ignorant. That you and the OP seem to think some is less bad than others doesn't speak too highly of to your conception of what prejudice is. Funnier still is that both of you seem to be rather cocky about your ignorance of just what prejudice is. Odd, that.

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #66)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 01:38 AM

80. I explained what made them different, but I also said that both were wrong

I explained that the quantity of the discrimination and the larger acceptance of discrimination against certain groups means that there's more of it to overcome for them. Not only is there more to overcome in terms of discrimination, there is more doubt, more stereotypes to overcome --things that people in more favored groups experience far less.

Have you heard of the Kerner Commission? These injustices have a way of compounding themselves and harming a community in ways that a community that doesn't face institutional racism is not subjected to.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerner_Commission

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #66)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 06:29 PM

108. LOL. I didn't overlook anything.

All forms of discrimination are not the same. If you are a white man, you have a better chance times 8 of not being stopped by the police in American cities.

Prejudice against whites is not the same as prejudice against blacks.

Deal with it.

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Response to EFerrari (Reply #108)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 07:24 PM

109. You didn't overlook anything except the obvious part

That you refuse to accept that is both telling and vicariously embarrassing.

As I said to the OP, the frequency of a stupid act doesn't make it better or worse. Arguing the advanced likelihood of something occurring doesn't make what causes it to happen any different. Any racist or any other such person who discriminates against people is equally as bad as any other person who does the same thing.

What you're doing is accepting the OP's gist because it's one with which you agree but ignoring the parts of his argument which made no sense. In plain English the statement that "prejudice against whites is not the same as prejudice against blacks" INTRINSICALLY means that the prejudice itself - not the outcomes, but the act of prejudging based upon race - is something which is in some way different when one group does it as opposed to when another does it. That you can't read English to decipher what the words plainly mean - or more likely, that you're choosing to overlook that clumsy sentence because the broader argument suits your worldview - isn't something I'd be as cocky as you're being, were I ever in your position. Of course I wouldn't be there because I think language and its meaning are important things. Shame that you don't share that view.

Any form of prejudice is wrong, and they're all equally stupid. In other words, everyone who prejudges another person is "the same" as any other racist moron. That English is escaping you is - as you said to me - something with which you'll have to deal, for I'll not accept the responsibility for your English language failings.

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #58)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 11:25 PM

71. i would argue, except that i think you made my point

unwittingly, perhaps.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #71)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 01:52 AM

83. Not in any version of reality, but ok. nt

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #83)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 01:57 AM

84. I explain to you what I said 100 times and you are telling me what I really said?

that's ridiculous. you don't agree with me, and that's your right. but something in you decides that you have to tell me that I think something worse or different than I said --though I've been perfectly willing to explain myself and what I think.

you accuse me of some other meaning in my words, when I always post on these issues at DU and have done for years.

there is no hidden agenda --though you accuse me of one of trying to justify racism, which I didn't do and don't approve of.

don't tell me about reality --it's you that's trying to make my posts into something they aren't. that's YOU distorting reality.

and it's a terrible reflection on the proud Teamster name that you use in your screen name.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #84)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 02:23 AM

87. In all seriousness, do you have a problem with reading comprehension?

I ask because nowhere did I accuse you of anything. I simply said that you stated in plain English that it's not the same for someone to discriminate against blacks as it would be to discriminate against whites. Where did I pull that from? Well, your OP which is titled as "Prejudice against whites is not the same as prejudice against blacks." So silly me, I took what YOU WROTE to mean what you think. I know, crazy, isn't it?

It seems as though you not only don't understand what I wrote, but even more disturbingly you don't even seem to understand what YOU wrote. That I find striking. You don't seem to understand that laden in your OP title it explicitly says that prejudice against whites is not the same as other prejudices, a statement which by almost any objective standard seems to suggest that anti-black prejudice by whites is simply more abhorrent than any other form of "reverse" discrimination. You can try and say that's not what you meant all day long, but the fact is that even if you didn't mean it that at best makes your argumentation style and efficacy very dubious, at best. Hell you don't even know what you're writing, why in the world would anyone give you much credibility? The short answer is that they won't because they shouldn't.

All I've ever "accused" you of is what you wrote in your OP. I didn't modify it or read anything into it: It's right there in black and white for all to see. That you are now somewhat uncomfortable with your own phrasing would normally suggest to a rational person that they tweak their statement, but you instead go off on some tangent, inventing a million different things that I supposedly did to your glorious OP when, in reality, I didn't distort the thing at all. I don't have to, you distorted things just fine when you penned the OP.

Speaking of screen names, yours is interesting given your particular statements inasmuch as much like many modern-day creeks your ideas seem laden with, shall we say, refuse.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #84)

Sun Apr 22, 2012, 07:24 PM

145. Lol. Interesting coming from you, CD.

Very interesting...

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Response to CreekDog (Original post)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 06:54 PM

19. Racism = prejudice + power

same goes for sexism, etc.

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Response to KamaAina (Reply #19)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 06:14 PM

105. GMTA...i just post the exact same thing

prejudice + power = institutional isms

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Response to CreekDog (Original post)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 06:58 PM

23. Don't try selling me that bulls**t

I was run out of my childhood neighborhood, and almost killed, by black racists--I was a target of hate crimes before the term "hate crimes" was coined. And you're trying to tell me that my life is not worth anything?!

I have news for you, pal. Prejudice is prejudice and discrimination is discrimination, no matter who's the perpetrator or target.

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Response to meow2u3 (Reply #23)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 07:07 PM

28. Yeah, except your neighborhood would not have existed were it not for...

...racist mortgage discrimination that allowed rural expansion for whites, but denied it for people of color.

It's still going on.

This is not to say that it's OK to be prejudiced or to discriminate, it is to understand the various levels of discrimination and their effects on society as a whole.

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Response to meow2u3 (Reply #23)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 07:10 PM

31. I don't know what OP you're responding to, because I don't approve of what happened to you

i'm a white male, trying to get an idea across. discrimination and prejudice against white people is wrong and i said so in my OP.

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Response to meow2u3 (Reply #23)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 07:13 PM

34. Gosh, I'm really sorry that happened Meow. You're right, hatred is hatred. Your life is priceless

and I have never understood the thought that black folks couldn't be racist. Oh, yes the hell they can be. ANYONE can be. WE are a country of people who need to understand that we ar all human and are worthy of the right to follow whatever dreams we have, so long as it doesn't hurt anyone.

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Response to meow2u3 (Reply #23)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 07:33 PM

37. One can be the victim of a hate crime and also the beneficiary of institutional racism.

Your experience sounds like a sad and scary testament to what happens when prejudice and racism are tolerated. I know that many white people can't relate to being threatened that way.
If you don't mind sharing a bit more about your experience, what was the outcome? Was law enforcement involved? Were the perpetrators brought to justice? Had it happened recently it would have been investigated as a hate crime if you asserted that it was racially motivated.


BTW, the OP did not in any way condone ANY prejudice or ANY racism no matter who is the target.

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Response to Gormy Cuss (Reply #37)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 07:33 PM

110. You people are forgetting your grains of salt. Just saying.

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Response to 2ndAmForComputers (Reply #110)

Sun Apr 8, 2012, 03:24 PM

121. You people?

That alone says a lot about your perspective.

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Response to CreekDog (Original post)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 07:02 PM

25. Thanks for saying this.

I wouldn't dare try to get this message across.

Good luck.

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Response to CreekDog (Original post)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 07:12 PM

32. Soooo.... It all depends on who the target is, as to how atrocious it is. Gotcha.

 

Let me get this straight. it's okay to be racist against people who aren't racist because someone ELSE in their demographic is racist?

That's what your argument is saying.

It's bad enough that we have to wage war against racists and we cannot get away from doing that, and it takes away from our ability to fight the PLUTOCRATS who keep egging both sides on - whites, blacks, men, women, all agitated into hating each other so we can't concentrate on the most powerful oppressors of all.

But then your argument justifies doing worse than this - your logic says that we should in fact downplay bigotry against a whole demographic JUST because they're white or male.

Uh, no. I don't practice bigotry against all white men because some are racists. I take my fight to the racists, take them on face to face, and try to find common ground with every other white man as fellow members of the 99%.

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Response to CreekDog (Original post)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 07:14 PM

35. Agree with you 100%. n/t

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Response to CreekDog (Original post)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 07:42 PM

38. prejudice against any individual is prejudicial.

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Response to CreekDog (Original post)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 07:43 PM

39. This white guy follows you ... I have 3 examples from my own life.

First the examples.

Ex 1: When I was growing up in Philly, I played a lot of basketball. At my high school, the majority of guys who played basketball were the black guys. So during gym, even though I was one of the better players, many of the black guys would not pick me for their team. The way it went was like this ... the first two guys to make a foul shot got to pick their team. If you didn't get picked, you sat out, and you tried to build a 3rd team to play the "winners" ... the winners held the court. There came a point where if I wanted to play in that fist game, then I needed to be the first person standing at the foul line when gym started, and then I had to make that foul shot. If you made the shot you could pick anyone you wanted. The system was stacked against me. I had to work harder than many of the others, just cause I was white. After a while, I was accepted, and more of the black guys would pick me.

Ex 2: To get to and from high school, I rode the Philly subway. And then after the subway, I rode a bus the rest of the way. That Bus stop was in a black neighborhood, and so I was usually the only white person there. And it was not unusual, on the way home, for black teens to confront me at that bus stop. Threaten me. Had more than one fight. I had to worry about this every single day.

Now ... as a white guy ... those 2 stories are the WORST examples of racism that I ever encountered that were directed towards me.

Ex 3: I went to graduate school at Texas Tech. One weekend shortly after I arrived a bunch of us went to a lake that was about 3 hours out side Lubbock. On the way we stopped in some gas station convince store. At that point I liked Texas because everyone smiled at you. In Philly, on the subway, you do not make eye contact. But in Lubbobk, everyone seems to be smiling at you. So we are in the store, and I'm walking down an aisle. And walking towards me is an older black man. Maybe 30. I've gotten used to saying "Hi" to everyone I pass ... and so I say "hi" ... the black man averts his eyes, looks down and says "hi" ... its clear to me that I just scared him. The guys at the counter who work at the store joke with everyone who comes up to pay. But not the black guy. The go silent. So does he. They take his money. He takes his stuff and quickly leaves.

I have to believe that the older black man I saw that day had to put up with that nonsense every day of his life.







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Response to JoePhilly (Reply #39)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 08:02 PM

42. thanks for that.

i remember feeling like a minority living in Utah (ask Jim McMahon...). i really don't count my experience there as any kind of major mistreatment, though i did see discrimination towards non-Mormons there, and people close to me were in tears more than once recounting things that had happened to them.

my reaction was not to tell black people or women or whomever that i know what discrimination is like. my reaction was to think, wow, i just had a small taste of this, imagine if there was nowhere in the USA i could live and not feel this way. imagine if the discrimination were 10 times worse than it is?

it gave me a sense for discrimination and made me feel more sympathy and empathy for others who experience it in greater amounts than i did.

and it changed my political philosophy from the party of the people who are supposed to be the same to the one where everyone is different.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #42)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 10:42 PM

68. Yup ... makes sense to me.

At most, I got what you describe as "small tastes" of racism aimed at me.

My first example was frustrating, but it was one I could deal with. I had to work harder to get time on the basketball court, but I felt like I had options.

My second example was the more scary situation because the threat of physical violence was included. But even that represented a rather small part of my day. I quickly learned to time my appearance at the bus stop ... I knew exactly what time the bus was supposed to be there. I also learned which businesses were near by, populated places in which I'd be safer. Once I was on the bus, I was generally OK after about 4 stops or so. I always looked for older people on the bus, black or white, and sat near them. Or close to the driver. Or I'd stand. But still, this was a very small part of my day.

I can't imagine having to spend my day assessing all of the people in the environment beyond what I had to do as a kid in Philly to start with. I mean, northeast Philly was a rough place when I lived there, and so you had to watch yourself, and others all the time ... but most of that was nothing compared to that subway and bus ride. And then those, were a small part of my day.

So I see that same thing. The idea that you had to watch for such things 24/7 ... and be concerned that you might be confronted in a physical manner all the time, I can only imagine.

That 3rd example I gave really hit me hard. The fact that an older black man became intimidated by me because I smiled and said "hi" ... and then how I saw the guys at the counter act as if he did not exist ... that blew me away ... and this was around 1985.

I lived in TX for another 3 years, and saw more racism than I ever saw in Philly. I know a number of white guys who are concerned that they are the ones getting the short end. And they find comfort in blaming minorities.

Fact is, the GOP is screwing them ... and too often, they help the GOP do it.

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Response to JoePhilly (Reply #39)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 10:44 PM

69. JoePhilly, my grandfather told me MANY stories of having to deal with "sun Down" laws, if you know

what they were, (are?). He grew up in west Texas and told me how when anyone who was black who was walking on the sidewalk had to lower their eyes and step off the walk if a white person was walking toward them. He told me about seeing and smelling charred, rotting bodies in 1930's Texas; of being called "boy" even though he was a man in his mid 20's.

I listened as he recounted memories of "nightriders" terrorising and murdering black families, often buring their homes to the ground. Even though there is a HORRIFIC history of vicious racism that people of color, (AND IRISH AND ITALIAN in some regions of the country, not to mention Jews), it still DOES NOT excuse the bigotry you experienced at the hands, mouths and minds of those black folks you knew in Philly.

We can't keep this up. We have to work to get past this because it will destroy us if we don't.

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Response to Ecumenist (Reply #69)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 12:45 AM

79. my grandmother moved to Vero Beach, Florida in 1980 said older black men would step off the sidewalk

when she walked by. she was aghast (originally from the Northeast).

of course, a couple years later, i went to her workplace, the bank, and noticed among all their Presidential Portraits --no Lincoln.

Florida, the 1980's.

do people really think things are all better now? that it's all fixed, mostly better now?

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #79)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 03:36 AM

88. Yep. so true, CreekDog. So very true.

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Response to CreekDog (Original post)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 07:54 PM

41. k&r

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Response to CreekDog (Original post)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 08:05 PM

43. I live in a world where what you've written is understood by people capable of rationale thought

with a modicum of intelligence who understand the world we all inhabit.

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Response to jp11 (Reply #43)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 10:22 PM

62. No kidding. n/t

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Response to CreekDog (Original post)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 08:41 PM

49. "her health care needs were viewed differently because she was a woman"

Reconcile these facts.
1) women live 5 years longer than men.
2) 35% more is spent on women's health care than men's.
3) By outlawing gender as a rating criteria, HCR shifts this extra cost onto men.

That's the social and legislative backdrop, it reflects society's dominant values and has been adopted as law.

Congressional Republicans tried to play the christian culture card against HCR and failed miserably, significantly harming their chances in the next election.

Rush Limbaugh called her a name and has subsequently lost most of his advertisers.

You're right about one thing; predjudice against men is absolutely not the same as predjudice against women.

By all means shove their words back down Republicans throats, but the fact that we can do this shows the degree to which theirs is not a dominant belief.

You won't get any argument from me regarding the disadvantage resulting from being a minority (racial or otherwise), but you will get an argument from me extrapolating this to the "oppression" faced by the majority.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #49)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 08:59 PM

51. how much healthcare did your dad require to have you born?

if you advocate discrimination in health care costs towards women, maybe this is not a great place for you to post.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #51)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 09:11 PM

53. Is higher car insurance rates for young men "discrimination"?

Young men inarguably are higher risks and incur more costs. The opposite of discrimination is "indiscriminate" so... maybe so.

Principal Findings
Per capita lifetime expenditure is $316,600, a third higher for females ($361,200) than males ($268,700). Two-fifths of this difference owes to women's longer life expectancy. Nearly one-third of lifetime expenditures is incurred during middle age, and nearly half during the senior years. For survivors to age 85, more than one-third of their lifetime expenditures will accrue in their remaining years.


Men (workplace injury) and women (pregnancy) have roughly equal medical costs up to middle age. One half of the total cost of women's care is spent when her male peers are already dead.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1361028/

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #53)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 09:12 PM

54. yes and illegal in my state

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #54)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 09:13 PM

55. Then I hope you're happy to bear those extra costs.

If you lived in my state your insurance would be less.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #55)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 12:41 AM

78. Am I really arguing with the guy offended that women live longer than men?

Is there any point in even having this discussion?

Dude, women living longer is not discrimination.

You're being irrational. Your posts about men's rights have become satire and are working against your stated goals.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #78)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 11:32 AM

91. I dunno. Your words suggest that you're arguing with someone else.

I asked a simple question; is it okay to charge you more for your insurance because the average 19 year old boy-racer feels the need for speed?

If not, is it fair to describe the resulting disparity in insurance costs "the cost of being a man"?

Shorter life expectancy may or may not be evidence of oppression. But it's a strong proof arguing against the presence of systemic oppression against those who live longest.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #91)

Sun Apr 8, 2012, 07:36 PM

122. Then you support different prices for health ins based on race

That blacks can be charged differently than white

Disabled more than non disabled etc.

In short that is Republican health care reform that you are advocating when you advocate to charge women more.

Now if youre only suggesting that women be chrged more and not other groups, then youre just choosing a wat to take a shot at women for men's advantage -ehich is worse.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #49)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 04:57 PM

100. Fuck any and ALL health care ratings

Thankfully, HCR outlaws different ratings for women, but it leave age rating firmly in place. Anyone who favors differential access to health care on any grounds is nothing but an apologist for mass murder.

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Response to eridani (Reply #100)

Sun Apr 8, 2012, 09:59 PM

126. How do you feel that a DUer is advocating charging women more?

Have you ever met a liberal or a Democrat that supported such an idea? How many Republicans would?

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #126)

Mon Apr 9, 2012, 03:27 AM

133. Unfortunately, plenty of DUers seem to be fine with age rating

A number of posts in this and other threads indicate that many think it's just fine that those statistically more likely to become sick is just fine, and analogous to car insurance. Here's a clue--you don't have to have a car, but you do have to have a body.

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Response to CreekDog (Original post)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 09:35 PM

56. "Huh? Are there people prejudiced against white guys?" Honestly, that was my gut reaction to the OP.

I'm a middle-aged, straight white male. And in absolute honestly, I can tell you that I don't think the idea that there might be some people who're prejudiced against me ever once even crossed my mind until a few minutes ago, when I saw the OP.

That's how stark the contrast is. A whole blissful goddam lifetime of not ever once wondering or worrying about prejudice, compared to...well, you tell me. Does a black man in America get even a single day in his life that prejudice doesn't haunt him, at least on some subliminal level?

That is white privilege, folks. The luxury, that freedom, that I've enjoyed all my life without even noticing it. And I am ashamed.

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Response to Mister Ed (Reply #56)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 04:59 PM

101. Of course some people are prejudiced against you

It just doesn't make any difference to your life, which is what the OP was about.

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Response to CreekDog (Original post)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 10:20 PM

60. K&R

Thank you for saying this. It bears repeating, especially here.

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Response to CreekDog (Original post)


Response to WRabbit (Reply #70)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 12:17 AM

75. "Anti-racist is a code word for anti-White"

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Response to fishwax (Reply #75)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 06:28 PM

107. ridiculous, isn't it?

absolutely fng ridiculous.

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Response to noiretextatique (Reply #107)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 11:58 PM

115. totally ridiculous -- and apparently repeated

I see the poster in question managed three posts before their tombstoning, and all have variations on that cowardly, idiotic theme.

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Response to WRabbit (Reply #70)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 12:34 AM

77. Clever. Except I want the government to do more for whites than you want it to do.

I want universal, affordable health care which will help whites and blacks who are denied or cannot afford it get the health care they need.

I want universal, free access to higher education which will help both whites and blacks who cannot afford it.

I want better safety net programs which will help both whites and blacks who fall victim to hard economic times.

And I want these things for all Americans, no matter their color, race, ethnicity, gender, age, income level, IQ, etc.

Brainwashed into wanting better for the poorest in our country --yeah, perhaps.

Anyway...bye now. I'm guessing you're gone for a while.

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Response to CreekDog (Original post)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 11:58 PM

72. I am a white male and I agree with the OP 100%

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Response to CreekDog (Original post)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 12:06 AM

73. Yea.

 

It is.
You don't paint someone into any corner based on anything other than individual merit.
Individuality circumvents group separatism.

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Response to CreekDog (Original post)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 12:19 AM

76. some people seem to be responding rather angrily to things you're not really saying

That happens often in threads like this, though.

k/r

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Response to CreekDog (Original post)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 01:52 AM

82. I don't know how anyone could disagree with you.

I would add that, at least typically, prejudice against an oppressed group is an instrument of oppression and so more harmful than prejudice against a group that is not oppressed.

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Response to Vattel (Reply #82)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 01:59 AM

85. that's a more concise way of saying the point that I was posting about

I was explaining a different angle of it, but it all adds up as you stated so eloquently and elegantly.

so thanks.

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Response to Vattel (Reply #82)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 11:23 AM

90. Precisely. What is so hard to recognize about the concept of oppression

that makes the kind of equivocation in this thread so easy for some?

I don't get it.

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Response to CreekDog (Original post)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 02:06 AM

86. Prejudice doesn't come in degrees. It's wrong on the same level no matter which way it travels.

I took the liberty of using your own words in a small experiment. Read both of the following paragraphs. Apologies for paraphrasing your words in the second paragraph, but I would ask... Is it possible that the second paragraph has the slightest bit of truth to it? Perception is reality. We all build our own realities around what we perceive our worlds to be.

For example, in the case of Trayvon Martin, it's not just that he was suspected and then killed as a result of prejudice by one person against African Americans, it's that in the aftermath, media coverage and societal reaction included vicious stereotyping that sought to justify his death. That was possible because such stereotyping is believed and accepted so widely.

For example, in the case of Zimmy, it's not just that he killed as a result of prejudice by one person against African Americans, it's that in the aftermath, societal reaction included vicious stereotyping that sought to justify his imprisonment without indictment or trial. That was possible because such stereotyping is believed and accepted so widely.


Which is the more widely believed and accepted stereotype here at DU... Black man in hoodie as thug, or white man with gun as racist bloodthirsty killer?

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Reply #86)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 11:39 AM

93. or calling him a 'white hispanic', a term i had never heard before

 

hispanic is hispanic, unless it's bad, then it's WHITE hispanic!

maybe when Obama does something the base doesnt like, we can call him a WHITE african American, just to remind everyone that it was the WHITE in him that made him do it. The African American in him would NEVER have done that!

seems like a real peril for mixed race persons, people seeing only one side of your background depending on how they feel about you at the moment

maybe we can start threads asking mixed race person to acknowledge their 'partial white privilage'

LOL

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Reply #86)

Mon Apr 9, 2012, 01:30 AM

131. prejudice may not be in degrees, but the amount of prejudice a person experiences does vary

and more of it does seem to harm outcomes more than less of it does.

how do you explain disparate economic and social circumstances among people for whom 99%+ DNA is the same?

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Response to CreekDog (Original post)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 11:34 AM

92. So, how do we determine

 

If there is a prevailing prejudice among a larger group of people? Who determines this? It's hard enough to figure out if the person committing the actual offence meant it racially, much less the thoughts of other random strangers in their race.

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Response to OccupyTheIRS (Reply #92)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 03:54 PM

96. I guess the OP will do that.

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Response to Skip Intro (Reply #96)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 04:40 PM

97. good one!

 

I'm glad there are smarter people than me around, to make these decisions and determine the correct path for things! This hasn't ended badly in the past!

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Response to OccupyTheIRS (Reply #92)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 06:11 PM

103. i don't think it takes rocket science to say that blacks and minorities are at a disadvantage

in this country, generally speaking.

one thing i have noticed, anecdotally, is that despite years of discrimination against black people --and even laws enforcing that for long periods of time --that white people are the only ones i've met that seem to think that proof is needed to say that discrimination has occurred.

which is odd. why would you need proof that something which has occurred for centuries and even in recent decades has continued.

it would seem one needs proof that it has ended, not the other way around.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #103)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 08:48 PM

112. Oh, I'm not doubting that discrimination occurs now, or has occurred,

 

I just realize that one kind of discrimination is not worse than another. Equal justice under the law.

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Response to CreekDog (Original post)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 04:49 PM

98. Maybe it would be easier for people to get if we leave black and white out of it

Why not try Japanese and Korean? It is very common for Japanese people to be prejudiced against and to stereotype Koreans. In America, since both groups are minorities, that's just a prejudice--which of course does NOT make it OK. In Japan, where Koreans are vastly outnumbered, that prejudice becomes institutional racism--not only quantitatively but qualitatively different.

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Response to eridani (Reply #98)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 06:06 PM

102. that's a good example of the point i was trying to make

thanks for posting it.

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Response to eridani (Reply #98)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 06:24 PM

106. also, divisions between northern and southern italians

my italian-born creative writing professor called that racism.

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Response to CreekDog (Original post)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 04:52 PM

99. Spot on

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Response to CreekDog (Original post)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 06:13 PM

104. prejudice + power = institutional isms

a good example: sentencing differences for powder and crack cocaine. and of course the GOP's vicious and insane "war on women." women don't have the political power to wage a war on men, and pass stupid, vicious anti-woman laws all over the country. nor do black people have the power to pass laws that disproportionately discriminate against white people. it is a fact on the national level, and in most states in america.

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Response to CreekDog (Original post)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 08:56 PM

113. So, since black people are more likely to be murdered by another black person,

 

Does that mean the penalty should be worse for black on black murder because there is some sort of "over abiding systemic factor" that causes blacks to kill each other at a higher rate? Of course not, this is nonsense.

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Response to OccupyTheIRS (Reply #113)

Sun Apr 8, 2012, 03:04 AM

118. have you ever considered that...

when society tells a black person that their lives are valued less, that some, even though they shouldn't, think their lives and the lives of other black people are in fact of less value than others?

it must seem like some kind of cruel joke that society can tell a person as who is every bit as equal as another that their life is less valuable because of their skin color --and i mean the cruelty is that some would internalize those thoughts.

in a sense, this is a theme, but you don't want to believe that it's any worse towards a minority --but in every statistic, it's clear that something is going on. people are being harmed on the basis of their skin color in our society, even though our DNA is almost exactly the same.

so there is another explanation, but you are so intent on arguing with me that you do not want to think about what is contributing to that, even though knowing this is the key to fixing it.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #118)

Sun Apr 8, 2012, 02:37 PM

120. It's not argument, it's debate.

 

I seriously don't understand where you are coming from and want to know. I'm exploring the idea, but I don't get the concept. I have always thought that all people should receive equal protection under the law, regardless of race. Where does society tell black people their lives are less valuable than white people? Certainly the media portrays the idea, popularizing stories about missing and exploited white people, ignoring those of blacks, but what laws project this concept?

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Response to OccupyTheIRS (Reply #120)

Sun Apr 8, 2012, 07:51 PM

123. Statistics...

Statistically speaking, white on black crime is dealt with the least severely, while black on white crime is dealt with the most severely (with black on black and white on white crimes falling in between the two). Statistically, a murderer is much, much more likely to receive the death penalty if the victim is white than if the victim is black. If the violent death of a white person requires the death of his or her murderer as penalty, but the violent death of a black person does not, what message does that send, except that white lives are more valuable, and black lives are less so?

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Response to CreekDog (Original post)

Sun Apr 8, 2012, 12:07 AM

116. When I read your diary I thought, "and rain is wet", then I started reading the replies...

 

Just wow! WTF have I stepped into?

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #116)

Sun Apr 8, 2012, 02:20 PM

119. doodoo

deep doodoo

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Response to CreekDog (Original post)

Mon Apr 9, 2012, 12:21 PM

137. Nonsense. Prejudice is Prejudice.

As a multi-racial man, i believe any type of prejudice is abhorrent and inexcusable, and the sins of the past do not excuse it.

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Response to CreekDog (Original post)


Response to Name removed (Reply #146)

Tue Jul 1, 2014, 07:17 PM

147. You A Special Little Snowflake, Fella, Ain'tcha?

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