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Fri Apr 6, 2012, 01:24 PM

The pilots ejected with the plane aimed towards a residential area?

Really? Gee, I was under the impression that that was a no-no.

63 replies, 5900 views

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Reply The pilots ejected with the plane aimed towards a residential area? (Original post)
PCIntern Apr 2012 OP
Brickbat Apr 2012 #1
Poll_Blind Apr 2012 #2
PCIntern Apr 2012 #5
malaise Apr 2012 #20
MineralMan Apr 2012 #3
Indydem Apr 2012 #4
slampoet Apr 2012 #6
PCIntern Apr 2012 #8
slampoet Apr 2012 #21
MineralMan Apr 2012 #7
PCIntern Apr 2012 #9
MineralMan Apr 2012 #16
stevenleser Apr 2012 #23
MineralMan Apr 2012 #27
Strelnikov_ Apr 2012 #31
Aerows Apr 2012 #32
stevenleser Apr 2012 #33
maddezmom Apr 2012 #38
hack89 Apr 2012 #37
emsimon33 Apr 2012 #41
GreydeeThos Apr 2012 #56
Webster Green Apr 2012 #10
elleng Apr 2012 #11
taterguy Apr 2012 #50
nadinbrzezinski Apr 2012 #12
DefenseLawyer Apr 2012 #13
Marrah_G Apr 2012 #14
Gin Apr 2012 #15
WilliamPitt Apr 2012 #17
KeepItReal Apr 2012 #18
Gin Apr 2012 #19
pinboy3niner Apr 2012 #22
snooper2 Apr 2012 #24
Aerows Apr 2012 #25
librechik Apr 2012 #28
Gin Apr 2012 #26
malaise Apr 2012 #30
emsimon33 Apr 2012 #48
tinrobot Apr 2012 #29
Tom Ripley Apr 2012 #34
emsimon33 Apr 2012 #42
Tom Ripley Apr 2012 #51
KansDem Apr 2012 #46
Tom Ripley Apr 2012 #49
Hangingon Apr 2012 #35
hack89 Apr 2012 #36
emsimon33 Apr 2012 #39
sudopod Apr 2012 #40
The Velveteen Ocelot Apr 2012 #43
emsimon33 Apr 2012 #44
jwirr Apr 2012 #45
Skidmore Apr 2012 #47
hedgehog Apr 2012 #52
malaise Apr 2012 #53
rufus dog Apr 2012 #54
rrHeretic Apr 2012 #58
rufus dog Apr 2012 #61
MerryBlooms Apr 2012 #55
rrHeretic Apr 2012 #57
hack89 Apr 2012 #59
rrHeretic Apr 2012 #60
hack89 Apr 2012 #63
backscatter712 Apr 2012 #62

Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 01:25 PM

1. What the hell?

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 01:25 PM

2. Maybe you should really think twice about ascribing political affiliation in an aviation disaster. n

PB

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Response to Poll_Blind (Reply #2)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 01:26 PM

5. Ok...I'll retract the part of the post..

and then we'll endure the aftermath here with similar OP's when the AF starts ducking...

In fact, the captain of the ship has to ensure to the best of his or her ability that the craft does not kill or injure civilians...leaving that craft to crash and kill is inappropriate. "Down with the ship" is down the tubes...

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Response to PCIntern (Reply #5)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 01:48 PM

20. Funny that I did wonder why the captain has to go down with the ship

but the pilot of a military aircraft can eject even when civilians are in danger.
It's a perfectly rational question.

Word is that the pilots ejected very late - looks like they had no options and did all they could to veer away from built up area.

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 01:25 PM

3. Got Link?

Please post it.

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 01:26 PM

4. Or maybe the plane changed course after he ejected?

What in the hell does the party of the pilot have to do with it?

Seriously?

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 01:28 PM

6. The world isn't JUST YOU

Without a link you are essentially giving the same impression to US as a person who yells at nothing in particular on the subway.

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Response to slampoet (Reply #6)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 01:31 PM

8. Boy did YOU miss the point...

but I edited it out, so I hope you feel better.

I'm not gonna bother to explain...it will become clear later....and then I'll reiterate the point.

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Response to PCIntern (Reply #8)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 01:55 PM

21. Say hello to the person who is reading this in a month and wondering the same thing.......

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 01:30 PM

7. Maybe you don't have any idea what you're talking about, too.

I found the story. Awfully early to be drawing conclusions, I think. Perhaps wait to learn more...

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #7)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 01:33 PM

9. Jeez...

I guess everything has to be spelled out here these days:

My POINT was, that a jet crashing into a residential neighborhood wherein the pilots have ejected is dereliction of duty. When the military apologists come to explain why it wasn't, we'll all have a good time here excoriating them. And there'll be the usual DU stuff... -sigh--

on edit: I appreciate your edit, MM

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Response to PCIntern (Reply #9)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 01:41 PM

16. The thing is that you have no idea what happened in that cockpit

or what the pilot's intentions were. Looks to me like there's water on one side of those apartments. Since the pilot survived, what happened will be determined in the investigation. All radio traffic will also be part of it. Jumping to conclusions before there is any information just doesn't make sense to me.

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Response to PCIntern (Reply #9)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 02:34 PM

23. Every loss of an aircraft is thoroughly investigated by the military.

If the pilot should have been able to control the aircraft, regardless of where the plane ended up, they are going to lose their flight status permanently and could face disciplinary measures up to and including courts martial.

If the evidence indicates conditions were such they could not have safely controlled the aircraft, they will be exonorated.

Very simple.

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #23)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 02:52 PM

27. Yup. We don't have the information needed to assess this yet.

It will all come out, once the investigation is done.

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #23)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 03:06 PM

31. Your response is extreme and completely unacceptable


The balanced and hyperbole-free content of your response has no place on a modern day internet forum.

You, Sir, are a dinosaur.

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Response to Strelnikov_ (Reply #31)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 03:08 PM

32. ROFL!

I couldn't have said it better!

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Response to Strelnikov_ (Reply #31)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 03:18 PM

33. I love it. LMAO







Well played!

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #23)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 04:30 PM

38. well said

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Response to PCIntern (Reply #9)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 04:26 PM

37. Why do you assume they had control of the aircraft? nt

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Response to PCIntern (Reply #9)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 04:57 PM

41. Given where the jet crashed, there weren't many options for the pilot

I was raised near the jet crash site and spent most of my life in that area. Even if the pilot had gone down with the plane, in that area he would have hit in a populated area as that whole area around Oceana has been built up and is densely populated. It appears that he waited until the very last second available to eject. I, for one, am glad that he did as not doing so would not have made any difference in the outcome given how close he was to the runway and how populated it is between where the jet crashed and where he would have landed the jet.

Unless someone is familiar with the area, it is difficult to understand how limited the choices are for Navy pilots flying in and out of Oceana Naval Air Station if they encounter a devastating situation with their craft.

If you want to lay blame, do so at the Virginia Beach City Council who has been in the pockets of developers for years to the detriment and safety of the city and its citizens. The encroachment on Oceana Naval Air Station is just one of too many to count examples of the City Council selling out the 99% for the 1%.

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Response to PCIntern (Reply #9)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 09:09 PM

56. And adding the death of the pilot to an already horrific tragedy improves the situation in what way?

Just where do you get this notion that it is the "duty" of a pilot to needlessly die in an accident.

Or does it just give you a warm fuzzy to know the pilot died too?

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 01:34 PM

10. Perhaps they only bailed when they no longer could control the situation.

I would bet that will be the case.

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 01:35 PM

11. 'Aimed?'

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Response to elleng (Reply #11)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 06:09 PM

50. Planes that can't fly when it's windy?

Shhhhhh

If our enemies find that out we'll be screwed.

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 01:35 PM

12. I think your second, non political explanation,

Is far more likely.

We had an F-18 go down two years or so ago here in La Jolla. It flattened a home, killing five.

When the investigation was over...yup pneumatic failure, lack of stick control.

If I were the Navy, I'd check every fighter in the fleet if indeed this is the problem. Could be a defect.

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 01:36 PM

13. Maybe the pilot's ex-girlfriend lived in the apartment

I mean as long as we are speculating.

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 01:37 PM

14. Perhaps they could not turn the plane away

I seriously doubt they would purposefully allow it to head towards a residential area if there was any other choice.

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 01:40 PM

15. They had just

Taken off.......no deaths or other injuries reported yet......both pilots are in hospitals......don't know what the protocol is for pilots when plane is going. Down.......awful scene...surprised there aren't more crashes....

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 01:43 PM

17. I heard on CNN that this was a training exercise.

Might explain your concern if the report was accurate.

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 01:44 PM

18. From initial reports... Lost control after takeoff... Sounds like they dumped fuel

So if anything they were trying to lessen the damage to be caused by the jet fuel when the plane eventually augured in.

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 01:47 PM

19. Pilot

Apologized to residents that helped pull him to safety..

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 02:22 PM

22. CNN: "All indications show they tried to make it to the beach" nt

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 02:41 PM

24. When's the last time you went zipping around in a fighter

LOL

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 02:46 PM

25. They are trained rigorously to eject

And I believe in certain circumstances, the plane will eject them automatically if the pilot is in a condition that could render them unconscious.

They are trained rigorously to eject simply so that it will be a reflex under certain conditions. I feel horrible for the civilians in the situation and hope everyone is okay, but I find it hard to blame people who are following their training and possibly got ejected automatically.

In fact, I find it kind of shocking that people would want MORE casualties rather than fewer.

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Response to Aerows (Reply #25)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 02:53 PM

28. +1

pls don't blame the pilots--I'm sure they did their best in this tragic situation--I have heard ejection is automatic under certain conditions.

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 02:50 PM

26. Good Friday

No injuries or deaths at this time..5 buildings destroyed....plane landed in a courtyard....had only been in air 15 seconds....runway end close to area hit.....


It is a good Friday even though the crash was awful....

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Response to Gin (Reply #26)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 03:02 PM

30. They don't kmow about casualties yet

No one has entered those buildings but neighbors say those apartments were full of seniors so I expect some horrific stories.

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Response to malaise (Reply #30)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 05:22 PM

48. No casualties as yet according to WAVY TV

I don't think that either apartment complex was anything but demographically balanced. Over the years, I have known people who have lived there and they have been all ages.

http://www.wavy.com/dpp/news/local_news/va_beach/military-plane-crashes-in-virginia-beach

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 02:59 PM

29. If they had the ability to "aim" the plane, it wouldn't have crashed.

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 03:21 PM

34. The must have attended the George Herbert Walker Bush Flight School

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Response to Tom Ripley (Reply #34)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 05:03 PM

42. Don't blame the pilots, blame the city council of Virginia Beach

The city council sold out to developers and refused to listen to the Navy. A pilot taking off or landing at NAS Oceana any more has very few options if he loses control of the plane or has some devastating mechanical problem.

Navy pilots are consummate professionals. They do everything possible to avoid populated areas, after all, their families live there, near the air station. In Virginia Beach, if you check on Google Earth, you will see how limited the options are for Navy pilots!

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Response to emsimon33 (Reply #42)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 06:09 PM

51. I don't blame the pilots, and I regret my snark

it was a cheap shot

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Response to Tom Ripley (Reply #34)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 05:19 PM

46. Are you by chance referring to this incident?

From DU, 2004--

He was a pilot who bailed out in the pacific, however, his two crewman didn't make it. They died. Poppy won a medal, however, the story surrounding the event is disputed by others in the squadron and leaves a lot of unanswered questions.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2323909

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Response to KansDem (Reply #46)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 06:08 PM

49. That is indeed the war "hero" incident

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 03:25 PM

35. Problem is construction encroachment at Oceana

There is another thread with news story and pictures. One of the pictures shows the NAS surrounded by housing.

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 04:25 PM

36. Every inch around Oceana is developed.

the Navy has been warning the city for decades to not build so close to the air base but developers got their way.

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 04:47 PM

39. I grew up in that area of Virginia Beach

And the neighborhood where the jet crashed is very close to one of the runways. It is near the resort area of the Beach and is heavily populated. I don't think that the pilot had much choice given where it crashed. If he could have put it down in a less populated area, such as the Atlantic Ocean, which is about 5 blocks away but in a much different trajectory, I am sure that he would have.

One of the Navy's major concerns with the Virginia Beach City Council over the years has been neighbor encroachment on Oceana Naval Air Station, one of the largest such military air stations in the world. The noise from jets in many of the neighborhoods in Virginia Beach is deafening and a real problem, especially at the end of the month when the jets seem to fly 24 hours a day in order to use up the fuel allotment so that the fuel allotments are not reduced.

In fact, we JOKE that Virginia Beach is one of the few places in the US that people ask for surface to air missiles as gifts for birthdays and holidays (just joking--so please don't flame me--but the noise IS a real problem).

I pray that no one was hurt in the crash and that the pilots are safe. Navy pilots are consummate professionals and try in such situations as today's to avoid populated areas in a crash situation; however, in Virginia Beach, this is not always an option.

The mailbox UPS store where I get my mail is a little over a block from the crash site. I called to see if they sustained any damage. They didn't but said that the jet flew so close over the store that they thought they were goners.


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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 04:49 PM

40. Physics took it out of their hands, if it was a stall out. nt

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 05:10 PM

43. "Aimed"? What makes you think they had control over the aircraft?

If the airplane was controllable they wouldn't have had to eject, would they? It's incredibly insulting to these professional pilots, whose training requires them to eject under certain specific circumstances, to suggest that they knowingly intended to let their plane crash in a residential area. Not to mention that the entire area surrounding the airfield is residential.

Jeez.

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 05:10 PM

44. Trust me: The pilot DID NOT aim the plane at a neighborhood!

I grew up in the area of Virginia Beach where the jet crashed. A jet taking off or landing at NAS Oceana has a very small margin for error as the City Council of Virginia Beach has been the wh*or* of local developers for years and has permitted high density building right up to the very edges of the air station despite the Navy's urging that they not do so. If you look on Google Earth, you will see this.

The Navy has the jets take off and get out over the Atlantic Ocean which is very near by (about 5 blocks from where the jet crashed) as quickly as possible--within seconds. This had to be a catastrophic failure for the jet to go down where it did. I doubt that the pilot had any control over where the jet would go down. Another few seconds in the air and it would have been in the Atlantic.

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 05:19 PM

45. I read that the plane was not responding to controls. They would not have been able to direct it

to a less populated area even if they would have stayed.

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 05:21 PM

47. Try directing your concern toward the legislators who

try to hold onto military installation while promoting economic growth in the same areas. I daresay this scenario could be played out many times over in various geographical locations in this nation. Same goes for nuclear power development.

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 06:12 PM

52. Seriously? Better read more about the story:

One pilot was briefly tangled at the crash site and had to be freed from the wreckage by residents at the scene, David Schleck, assistant city editor at the Virginia Pilot, told msnbc cable television.

"(The pilot) was snagged on the burning building," said Schleck. "They actually cut him free from the building and then emergency crews showed up a little bit later and were able to get him a safe distance from the burning building."

Witness accounts of the jet dumping fuel before the crash suggest that the pilots averted a worse disaster, Bruce Nedelka, the Virginia Beach EMS division chief, told The Associated Press.

"By doing so, he mitigated what could have been an absolute massive, massive fireball and fire," Nedelka said. "With all of that jet fuel dumped, it was much less than what it could have been," he said.

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/04/06/11057385-navy-jet-crashes-in-virginia-beach-hitting-apartment-buildings?lite

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 07:02 PM

53. Really good news

"...we didn’t find anyone in the first two buildings,” said Mayor William Sessoms on CNN. “I don’t know what to expect in the other buildings until they get into them.”

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/04/06/f-18-delta-fighter-jet-crashes-into-virginia-beach-apartment-building/
----------------------------

Nine people injured so far

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 07:10 PM

54. As stated numerous times on your thread and from initial reports

It appears that the pilots road the dead plane down as long as possible, dumped the fuel and then ejected. When I heard the original reports I had a similar WTF response, but it appears that they did all they could, had an unresponsive aircraft, then finally ejected. Seems like not ejecting would have resulted in two dead pilots and the same point of impact.

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Response to rufus dog (Reply #54)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 09:28 AM

58. So, where will the ticker tape parade be for those 2 'heroes'?

 

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Response to rrHeretic (Reply #58)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 01:25 PM

61. Haven't seen anyone call them heroes

Although it is possible some talking head threw that out. The ticker tape parade comment is ridiculous.

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 07:38 PM

55. You're so far out of bounds on this one, you really should just delete your OP and lock this mess.

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 09:20 AM

57. Kudos

 

PCIntern regardless of the flak you're taking. I can't wait until your detractors begin chirping some nonsense like "we gotta fight em over there so we don't fight em over here". Laughable in a way. So called liberals defending the military industrial complex. I guess they never heard of Dwight Eisenhower's parting remarks which mirror yours in many ways.

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Response to rrHeretic (Reply #57)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 10:08 AM

59. PCIntern is taking flak for the stupidity of his post

how much intelligence does it take to realize a crippled plane may not be controllable and the pilots had no other choice? His immediate instinct was to attack the pilots because he hate the military.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #59)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 12:34 PM

60. and you

 

on the other hand love the military right? And if so, then it begs the question...well out of respect to this site I'll refrain from any further logical queries. But in the future please don't presume to say what someone does and doesn't think or feel. PcIntern, like myself, might actually be a military vet. I know it boggles one's mind to think that a vet would actually loathe war, guns, killing but that's the fact of life for some. The old, tiresome mantra of 'I oppose the war but support the troops' is laughable for those of us inclined to think more rationally. I mean, if the troops are participants in the war, why would one support them and not the war? That's a philosophical query surrounding morality among other things so I expect no response.

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Response to rrHeretic (Reply #60)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 01:53 PM

63. So being anti war justifies unsubstantiated attacks on the military?

his initial post was an knee jerk smear against the pilots. One can have principles without being a jerk.

I spent 20 years in the Navy. I don't "love" the military but I do understand it.

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Response to PCIntern (Original post)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 01:29 PM

62. I'm inclined to wait until the investigation before blaming the pilots.

Sounds to me like they had engine trouble, and when a fighter jet like an F/A-18 loses its engines, it flies like a lawn dart.

I'd bet that due to whatever was wrong with the plane that it was impossible to control. The pilots probably did the best they could.

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