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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsEconomy Adds 120K Jobs In March; Unemployment Falls To 8.2 Percent
The U.S. economy added 120,000 new jobs in March, and the unemployment rate fell to 8.2 percent, according to the Labor Department jobs report.
Here's how the numbers break down:
Biggest industry losers: Employment services (-14k), department stores (-21k), retail overall (including department stores -34k), construction (-11k).
The Labor Department revised February's numbers from 227,000 to 240,000 and January's numbers from 284,000 to 275,000.
http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entries/economy-adds-120k-jobs-in-march-unemployment-falls
CAPHAVOC
(1,138 posts)ProSense
(116,464 posts)CAPHAVOC
(1,138 posts)Meanwhile 150k quit looking for work and lose benefits. LOL.
Meanwhile 150k quit looking for work and lose benefits. LOL.
...it's a conspiracy!
You know, maybe the economy didn't actually lose the 800,000 jobs the month it was reported. Maybe we're all being tricked!!!!
mathematic
(1,431 posts)If you just quit looking for a job but still want one you're marginally attached. The rate that includes this type of unemployment in the definition dropped from 9.8 to 9.6.
As you ought to know, benefit status does not determine unemployment status. Nevertheless, long term unemployment (over 27 weeks) declined from 5.4 mil to 5.3 mil.
And finally, while persons not in the labor force increased from 87.654 mil to 87.897 mil the number of those that actually want jobs declined from 6.378 mil to 6.299 mil. Yes, people DO leave the labor force with no desire to have a job.
CAPHAVOC
(1,138 posts)Who is leaving the Labor Force? The 1%? When one runs out of unemployment what are they counted as in the 8.2? Or are they counted at all. This is whacky. This reality could only exist in the Funny Farm. 40% of the people do not work.
mathematic
(1,431 posts)There are 4 main rates used to measure labor underutilization (unemployment). They are referred to as U3, U4, U5, U6. U3 is the most narrow measure and it is the headline number reported (the 8.2 rate). The one I quoted you above (the 9.6 rate) is U5. U6 is the broadest measure, including people working part time that want and are able to work full time, and it dropped from 14.9 to 14.5.
People leave the labor force for all sorts of reasons: retired, student, housewife/househusband, unable to work. Considering our two biggest generations, the boomers and millennials, intersect with the retired and student demographics, it's not surprising that the labor force participation rate is declining.
One does not need to have ever collected unemployment insurance to be counted in the 8.2 rate. For example, a person that quits a job can still be counted in the 8.2 rate. Simply put, unemployment insurance status has nothing to do with these BLS numbers.
Finally, 40% of the people don't work. I think that's great... as long as they don't want to work. Heck, if 100% of the people didn't work and 100% didn't want to work I'd think that's great too. I'm not holding my breath for that fully-autonomous-robot-future-freeing-humanity-from-the-drudgery-of-work any time soon though.
former9thward
(31,936 posts)The Labor Department does not count students, unable to work and retired as being in the labor force. The rate went down because of people giving up looking for work.
phleshdef
(11,936 posts)All of them 100% accurate. Nothing was made up.
Of course they wouldn't count "unable to work" or "retired" as being in the labor force. It would be monumentally stupid. If you are retired or unable to work, then you are most definately not part of the labor force. What part of "not working" or "not able to work" do you have an issue understanding? Obviously, the "not" part. Additionally, if you are "not looking for work", for whatever reason, you aren't part of the labor force. Some people quit looking for work because they don't want a job, some because they are tired of not finding anything. In either event, the only way anyone SHOULD be counted as part of the labor force is if they are seeking a job or they have a job. Its the only way that makes sense by the definition of what a labor force is.
The problem with your view here is that you are acting like the numbers we see these days are trying to hide something, and thats just bullshit. In the late 90s, when the unemployment rate was golden, it was surveyed and calculated then exactly the same way it is now. Whenever the economy is good or bad, we measure unemployment the same way. Because of the consistent approach to measurement, we can have confidence that each report is showing us a true movement in the trend one way or the other.
former9thward
(31,936 posts)Your post "Additionally, if you are "not looking for work", for whatever reason, you aren't part of the labor force." That is incorrect. The labor department does count those people as part of the labor force but does not count them when developing the basic unemployment number. That is why the unemployment number went down despite a poor jobs number.
phleshdef
(11,936 posts)You are not counted as part of the labor force unless you are seeking work. Period. There are people that have no interest in working, like stay at home parents for example. They are not counted as part of the labor force. If you aren't looking for a job, it would make no sense to count you.
former9thward
(31,936 posts)If you don't like how they collect stats take it up with them. If are not looking for a job because you are too discouraged that you will ever find one you are not counted as being in the labor force so the unemployment number goes artificially down. It has nothing to do with being disabled, student, stay at home parent, etc.
phleshdef
(11,936 posts)And it has nothing to do with their statistics. We are discussing what they consider "in the labor force" vs "not in the labor force".
A series of questions is asked each month of persons not in the labor force to obtain information about their desire for work, the reasons why they had not looked for work in the last 4 weeks, their prior job search, and their availability for work. These questions include:
1.Do you currently want a job, either full or part time?
2.What is the main reason you were not looking for work during the LAST 4 WEEKS?
3.Did you look for work at any time during the last 12 months?
4.LAST WEEK, could you have started a job if one had been offered?
These questions form the basis for estimating the number of persons who are not in the labor force but who are considered to be "marginally attached to the labor force." These are persons without jobs who are not currently looking for work (and therefore are not counted as unemployed), but who nevertheless have demonstrated some degree of labor force attachment. Specifically, to be counted as "marginally attached to the labor force," individuals must indicate that they currently want a job, have looked for work in the last 12 months (or since they last worked if they worked within the last 12 months), and are available for work. "Discouraged workers" are a subset of the marginally attached. Discouraged workers report they are not currently looking for work for one of four reasons:
1.They believe no job is available to them in their line of work or area.
2.They had previously been unable to find work.
3.They lack the necessary schooling, training, skills, or experience.
4.Employers think they are too young or too old, or they face some other type of discrimination.
http://www.bls.gov/cps/cps_htgm.htm#nilf
Its right there for your own reading. You are not considered part of the labor force if you have no job and aren't looking for one. Discouraged workers are considered "marginally attached to the labor force", only if they've looked for work in the last year. And thats a different category and are not counted among the unemployed. No one said they didn't measure the people that fit that category. Thats a false argument that you are pretending someone made. Its just that those people are not considered part of the labor force in ANY figure where they are specifically giving a measurement based on labor force participation. Participation requires people participating. If you aren't looking for work, then you aren't participating, no matter what the reason is.
former9thward
(31,936 posts)Do you think people dropping out of the workforce because they are too discouraged they will ever find a job is a good thing? Because that is what is happening. And that is why the unemployment rate is dropping. Not because jobs are being added. People are dropping out because there are no jobs they can find. That is a good thing???
phleshdef
(11,936 posts)And no one denied that some of the unemployment drops we've seen over the last 2 years have been due to people dropping out of the labor force. But its a far reach to act like that accounts for most of it. We've actually seen jobs come back as well. Some companies who cut positions during the height of the recession have in fact started reinstating people back to those positions.
Also, don't forget that we just completed a census not that long ago. And the results of that census resulted in a lower estimated labor force size as well.
And not everyone that drops out of the labor force does it because they are giving up on looking for work. People retire EVERY DAY. People die EVERY DAY. People decide to become stay at home parents EVERY DAY. Yes, some people become discouraged and stop looking for work. But there are many reasons someone exits the labor force. And I don't think most people have the choice of just giving up on employment. I know I wouldn't. If I find myself without a job again, unless some unforeseen circumstance rendered me physical or mentally incapable of it, I'll keep looking for another one until I'm dead.
mathematic
(1,431 posts)I clearly say that those people are NOT in the labor force. If a person was in the labor force but retired or went to college while not working or became unable to work, etc then they would LEAVE the labor force. Furthermore it's not true that they necessarily gave up looking for work because they need not have even started looking for work after they left their last employment.
Examples:
retired person - "That's the last job I'm ever going to work" - did not give up looking for work
student - "I hate this job. I'm going to school so I can get a real one" - did not give up looking for work
stay-at-home parent - "Screw that job I'm taking care of junior!" - did not give up looking for work
unable to work - "Healing from my sudden illness requires my full attention." - did not give up looking for work
And don't even try to tell me these examples aren't common. As I said above, the number of people not in the labor force that actually want a job declined!
former9thward
(31,936 posts)You are attempting to imply that people are leaving the labor force so that is the reason the number of those who have given up looking for work is rising. That is false. The labor department does not count those people. The rat went to 8.2 because of the rise in people who have given up looking for a job. It matters not those who have actually left the labor pool for whatever reason. Keep trying to white wash bad numbers.
mathematic
(1,431 posts)But for the benefit of the people reading this that are interested in facts, here goes.
The definitions and numbers from the actual BLS report.
Labor force = employed plus unemployed
unemployed is available for work and looked for work in the last 4 weeks
Definitions
People not in the labor force include people that gave up looking for work over 4 weeks ago, people that never looked for work after their last job, and people that were never in the labor force. Of these three types, only the first represents an economic problem. People can leave the labor force from employment or from unemployment. I have given many legitimate, everyday scenarios where people leave the labor force from employment.
The total number of people that want a job that do not have a job are the unemployed plus the people not in the labor force that want a job. The BLS reports BOTH these numbers. And both these numbers declined last month. Unemployed declined from 12.806 mil to 12.673 mil. Explain how that is bad! People not in the labor force that want a job declined from 6.378 mil to 6.299 mil. Explain how that is bad! The total number of people in the United States of America that wanted jobs but were jobless DECLINED last month from 19.184 mil to 18.972 mil. Explain why fewer people wanting jobs and not having them is a bad thing.
data
I'll repeat that last part for the people skimming... the total number of people that wanted a job but did not have one declined last month. This is out of everybody! Even including people that want a job but have never had one or ever looked for one.
The numbers say that the labor force declined, the number of employed declined, the number of unemployed declined, and the number of jobless that wanted a job declined. How can this possibly make sense? Easy: a bunch of people got jobs but even more people with jobs left the labor force due to one of the many everyday scenarios I mentioned above (retirement, school, etc).
CAPHAVOC
(1,138 posts)Less people working the lower the rate.
klook
(12,151 posts)Wonder where you're getting that 40 percent number.
SpencerShay
(72 posts)Not at all surprised that a George Zimmerman apologist wants the black president to fail. Don't count your chickens, just yet...
WI_DEM
(33,497 posts)based on reports. The recovery continues to be less than vigorous but lets face it the Bush Depression was the worse since the Great Depression and the Great Depression wasn't really solved until World War II.
aaaaaa5a
(4,667 posts)I have noticed that when the actual numbers come out, the jobs number is almost always much higher than reported. If current trends hold, a 120,000 jobs claim will probably be about 150-175,000 when the true figures are known. Its not 200,000 but its pretty close.
former9thward
(31,936 posts)Last edited Fri Apr 6, 2012, 01:00 PM - Edit history (1)
The January numbers were revised down 9,000 and the February numbers were rivised up 13,000. So combined those two months together went up 4,000. Not much difference at all.
aaaaaa5a
(4,667 posts)Here is a link on job revision numbers.
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0312/73815.html
From the article:
The payroll numbers slightly beat Wall Street forecasts of 210,000 jobs, confirming that the hiring jumps in recent months were not flukes. The January jobs numbers also were revised upward to 284,000 from 243,000, while the December results were increased to 223,000 from 203,000.
former9thward
(31,936 posts)From the OP: The Labor Department revised February's numbers from 227,000 to 240,000 and January's numbers from 284,000 to 275,000
aaaaaa5a
(4,667 posts)And in all honesty thank you for the correction. I always want all of the threads and posts here at DU to be as factually accurate as possible.
CAPHAVOC
(1,138 posts)QE2 is wearing off. The addicts are Jonesing. They need a shot. QE3 will have to be a bigger dose. Or the addicts will have to be sent to Re-Hab.
Why do they say people who run out of 99 weeks of unemployment have left the job market and are not looking for work? I doubt that is true.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)They don't.
The unemployment rate is not tied to unemployment benefits. The unemployment rate is determined via a survey. Which is why they're able to produce so many different unemployment rates.
U2: Percentage of labor force who lost jobs or completed temporary work.
U3: Official unemployment rate per the ILO definition occurs when people are without jobs and they have actively looked for work within the past four weeks.
U4: U3 + "discouraged workers", or those who have stopped looking for work because current economic conditions make them believe that no work is available for them.
U5: U4 + other "marginally attached workers", or "loosely attached workers", or those who "would like" and are able to work, but have not looked for work recently.
U6: U5 + Part time workers who want to work full time, but cannot due to economic reasons (underemployment).
U6 is the one I personally think they should use. That was about 14%.
phleshdef
(11,936 posts)How many times do people need to be told this around here? Every fucking time new job numbers come out, its the same shit.
The unemployment rate is not tied to unemployment benefits
The unemployment rate is not tied to unemployment benefits
The unemployment rate is not tied to unemployment benefits
The unemployment rate is not tied to unemployment benefits
The unemployment rate is not tied to unemployment benefits
The unemployment rate is not tied to unemployment benefits
The unemployment rate is not tied to unemployment benefits
The unemployment rate is not tied to unemployment benefits
I swear, its like we are going to need to pre-emptively spam the board with that fact on the first Friday of every month.
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)And it getting tougher for Fox News to claim that "unemployment is still almost 10%".
I bet Romney wishes he had a dog to kick this morning.
Tennessee Gal
(6,160 posts)Romney is a fool.
aaaaaa5a
(4,667 posts)The Presidents stimulus package has saved the country from a depression and we are now in 20+ months of positive private sector job creation.
Remember the unemployment number will be coming down more slowly, because more people are entering the market to find work. This is actually a sign the economy is improving from the (GBR) Great Bush Recession.
WI_DEM
(33,497 posts)Dawson Leery
(19,348 posts)great white snark
(2,646 posts)Thanks and be safe.
I say "be safe" because truly, what would we do without you? What would I do?
I'd be lost..walking in circles. An unkempt shell of a man lost and stumbling around while pulling at my overused adult diaper. Going in circles. Round and round. The monotony of my empty existence only interrupted when my fungus ridden, overgrown toenails snag on tufts of carpeting that my endless pacing hasn't worn out. Round and round and round.
Please don't let that happen to me!
Anyhoo, don't worry 'bout me and have a great weekend. Really, I'll be ok.
aint_no_life_nowhere
(21,925 posts)Whoops, that one's looking less and less promising, too.
MadHound
(34,179 posts)And sadly, the number of those dropping out of the work force increased as well.
Mixed news at best.
mathematic
(1,431 posts)I posted on this above. It comes down to why people are leaving the labor force and if they left the labor force from employment (retired people, etc) or unemployment (giving up looking for work).
People in the labor force decreased by 160k last month but people not in the labor force that actually wanted a job decreased by 80k. This suggests that the labor force decline has far more to do with employed people leaving their jobs and not wanting another one than the economically dire situation of more people losing their jobs and not being able to find one.
girl gone mad
(20,634 posts)Nothing mixed about it. At this rate, we might see losses in the private sector by the end of this quarter. No monetary fix will can get us back on track, and fiscal solutions remain hopelessly out of reach.
ProSense
(116,464 posts)"At this rate, we might see losses in the private sector by the end of this quarter."
Jared Bernstein: http://jaredbernsteinblog.com/jobs-report-take-2/