The search for probable cause against George Zimmerman in Trayvon Martin case

[Baitball Blogger]

From the Orlando Sentinel:

In order to arrest George Zimmerman for the shooting death of Trayvon Martin, the special prosecutor heading the investigation must show a judge that she has found probable cause.

Sanford police faced public outrage when they announced they found no probable cause to arrest the Neighborhood Watch volunteer.

So what exactly is it?

"It's a 'reasonable person' standard under the law," said John Tanner, former state attorney in the 7th Judicial Circuit, which includes Volusia Count


http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-04-04/news/os-trayvon-martin-probable-cause-20120404_1_special-prosecutor-angela-corey-evidence-standards-arrest

[d_r]

1. the thing is, to me

I don't see how a reasonable person would think that zimmerman needed to pull the trigger to protect his life or to protect himself from grievous harm. Even if his story was true, that Trayvon was whipping him, when he pulled out the handgun he was in charge of the situation, and he knew that police would arrive soon. There was no need for him to fire to protect his life. He could have easily gotten out of that without shooting. Frankly, I don't see how a reasonable person could conclude that the shooting was necessary.

[pipoman]

3. More people are killed annually with

hands and feet than with rifles according to the CDC.

[dpibel]

7. Oh, very clever!

This has what to do with anything?

Fill in the blank quiz: George Zimmerman was carrying a __________.

If you answered "rifle," you are mistaken.

In 2009, murders with:
Rifle, 348
Shotgun, 418 (not sure why you left this out, since you're going with long guns)
Hands, fists, feet, etc., 801

Oops!
Handguns, 6,452
Source


Your point was...what?

[pipoman]

8. Thickness..

a person doesn't need a weapon beyond their hands and feet to inflict great bodily harm or death..

[d_r]

9. sorry, this is not an important point here

I am talking about this specific situation, not statistical overviews of the population. In this situation, I don't think a reasonable person would agree he should have felt threatened enough to have to pull the trigger.

[pipoman]

11. We have gotten bits and pieces of what his story is

in the absence of any witnesses. If he kept his mouth shut and lawyered up, again in the absence of any evidence to the contrary, his story would be completely exculpatory if his lawyer is any good and he kept his mouth shut. I'm not saying it is good, only what I believe the situation is. A case can be made that one absolutely feared great bodily harm if another person is beating one. A bunch of arguments which boil down to some illusive equal force standard for determining if a reasonable person would fear great bodily harm are erroneous...there is no equal force standard and there shouldn't be..If he can make even one "reasonable person" believe that martin was beating his head on concrete, that reasonable person might agree that one's head can't take a lot of beating against the concrete.

[d_r]

13. I wasn't saying equal force

I was saying a reasonable belief that his life was in danger or a threat of serious bodily harm. I just don't see it. But you are right, we only know the details that have been reported.

[pipoman]

14. I think it is interesting that the feds are involved

I have heard of similar cases of something happening, no witnesses, a suspicion that the suspect committed a criminal act, just no good evidence...not enough to convict. The state calls in the feds to investigate. The feds ultimately get an interview with the suspect with the suspect's lawyer present. The feds carefully construct their questioning around a few details which are absolutely known. The suspect lies about one or more of these details, which is a crime when talking to the feds, and in the absence of evidence to convict on the actual crime suspected, the suspect is charged with lying. I think something like this happened with Martha Stewart, IIRC.

The problem I have with the crime of lying to a fed is that the feds can lie to you all they like..a double standard which I believe should be remedied.

[d_r]

16. That is interesting about the feds

That's a good take on it.

[Baitball Blogger]

4. Completely agree with that assessment.

[applegrove]

10. +100

[Baitball Blogger]

2. Here is my list of probable cause:

1) Trayvon Martin ALSO called 911 for help because someone was following him.

2) Trayvon Martin was screaming for his life. A witness reported it and the police tried to change the testimony.

3) There was no sign that Trayvon had a chance to beat George Zimmerman to a pulp. At most, he might have had one last chance to tackle him, since the boy was a football player and it was his defensive move of last resort. But there was no indication that George Zimmerman was pummeled.

4) Zimmerman's story did not hold up to at least one state attorney officer, but the arrest was halted by his superior officer.

I think we can determine that the reason why there is such outrage is that there was nothing but indications of probable cause.

[CAPHAVOC]

5. Judge Sharpton and his Prosecutor Mr. O'Donnell

With their expert witnesses NBC and ABC. May in the end blow the case for the real Judge and Prosecutor. Their court has no rules. And if the truth erodes their so called evidence the Jury becomes skeptical. The real Judge has to deal with evidence that can actually be shown to be true. Without doctoring. In fact tampering is a crime. In addition witholding of exculpatory evidence is grounds for a mistrial.

[obxhead]

6. A bullet in the chest of the victim.

Zimmerman holding the gun that fired it.

Probable cause.

[Egalitarian Thug]

12. Possibly the weakest excuse since "the dog ate my homework". n/t

[Baitball Blogger]

15. I don't see how Zimmerman can use the SYG argument, when

he broke protocols that even a policeman would use. AND he took criminal justice courses. That would raise the expectation that he took his own chances when he went after Trayvon.

[magical thyme]

17. a reasonable person would not have left his car

even if he had "probable cause" to follow Trayvon, he had no reason to get out of his car and no reason to confront him or get within touching distance.

He chose to follow him, he chose to exit his car, he chose to confront him.

Travyon had a cell phone in one hand. What was in the other hand? Candy? Iced tea? How did Trayvon threaten him?

Trayvon was talking on the phone until 60 seconds before being found dead by the police.

During 40 of those 60 seconds, he is heard on 911 tapes crying for help until a shot rings out and silences his calls for help.

He is found face down with his hands under him.

Exactly when did he have time to attack Zimmerman? In the brief second(s) between when he was talking to his girlfriend and when she heard skuffling and the phone went dead? In the 20 seconds between after he was shot and before he was found dead?

If he was on top of Zimmerman, and Zimmerman shot upward at him, how did he end up face down on his arms? If he fell backward, he'd end up on his back. If he fell forward on top of Zimmerman, and Zimmerman then pushed him off of him, he'd end up on his back and Zimmerman would have backscatter and blood on his shirt.

The time line does not seem to allow for Trayvon to attack Zimmerman. Found face down on his arms discredits Zimmerman's description of shooting up at him. There is probably cause to believe Zimmerman followed him, confronted him and shot him.