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Tue Apr 3, 2012, 10:53 PM

How does the "Stand your Ground" law handle this:

1. Guy goes to local park with daughter to check out a small "Occupy" event. Guy as usual is packing as he has his cc permit. They are standing on the sidewalk watching the peaceful protestors do their thing. Cops show up and start taking down the tents and telling everyone to go home. Officer in white shirt heads over towards guy's daughter and her friend and pulls out some pepper spray and let's her have it right in the face. Guy, afraid for her life, knowing that what the cop was doing was not authorized, pulls his gun and shoots the officer.

2. Same story only this time it's with his son who wants to get involved by videoing the event. This time the cop rips the camera from the kid, grabs him and throws him to the ground and pounds on him like you've seen in the various tapes of the Occupy events last fall. Guy, afraid for his son's life, pulls his gun and shoots the officer.


3. Same story only the guy is there by himself. Guy is watching things, is on the sidewalk, not really participating when suddenly a cop comes at him with his club yelling at the guy to get out of there. Guy, afraid that he about to get hit, pulls his gun and shoots the officer.

4. Same story only the guy is standing with a flag, not bothering anyone. Cops start throwing grenades, guy watches friend get hit and afraid for his life, pulls his gun and starts shooting the cops.

Just wondering.

19 replies, 2236 views

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Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 19 replies Author Time Post
Reply How does the "Stand your Ground" law handle this: (Original post)
rgbecker Apr 2012 OP
virgogal Apr 2012 #1
NutmegYankee Apr 2012 #2
pipoman Apr 2012 #9
NutmegYankee Apr 2012 #15
rgbecker Apr 2012 #16
NutmegYankee Apr 2012 #18
BiggJawn Apr 2012 #3
RC Apr 2012 #4
ManiacJoe Apr 2012 #6
RC Apr 2012 #8
ManiacJoe Apr 2012 #11
RC Apr 2012 #13
freshwest Apr 2012 #5
pipoman Apr 2012 #7
freshwest Apr 2012 #10
ti66er8pooh Apr 2012 #12
rgbecker Apr 2012 #17
MineralMan Apr 2012 #14
Rex Apr 2012 #19

Response to rgbecker (Original post)

Tue Apr 3, 2012, 10:57 PM

1. Bad cop! Sit! Stay!

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Response to rgbecker (Original post)

Tue Apr 3, 2012, 11:00 PM

2. Most have an exception for police officers.

They thought of that.

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Response to NutmegYankee (Reply #2)

Tue Apr 3, 2012, 11:38 PM

9. I don't remember seeing that in any SYG laws

however, I certainly haven't read them all. The determining factors would be if the shooter/defender was acting legally, in fear of their life/serious injury, and most importantly, the cop was acting unlawfully.

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Response to pipoman (Reply #9)

Wed Apr 4, 2012, 08:36 PM

15. It's buried in other parts of the law code in most states.

Basically, the use of deadly force on police officers is prohibited by most states when they are arresting or detaining you, whether lawful arrest or not.

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Response to NutmegYankee (Reply #15)

Wed Apr 4, 2012, 11:16 PM

16. What about when the are pepper spraying you?

Like the young ladies in NYC and the kids at the california college.

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Response to rgbecker (Reply #16)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 10:26 AM

18. Sadly, if you attack them, you can be arrested and charged with battery on an officer

Now with a jury, it's questionable that you'd be convicted, but that is the law in most states. Now, played out correctly, the charges may be dropped and the officer disciplined with the correct media coverage. But all too often this doesn't happen.

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Response to rgbecker (Original post)

Tue Apr 3, 2012, 11:06 PM

3. Need a tissue?

Another Anti-Gunner's J-O fantasy...

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Response to BiggJawn (Reply #3)

Tue Apr 3, 2012, 11:19 PM

4. "Stand your Ground" sounds like a

 

gun nut's wet dream.

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Response to RC (Reply #4)

Tue Apr 3, 2012, 11:25 PM

6. Feel free to explain your reasoning.

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Response to ManiacJoe (Reply #6)

Tue Apr 3, 2012, 11:37 PM

8. Pick a fight

 

Fear for your life. Draw and fire. It allegedly already been done.

OR

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Response to RC (Reply #8)

Wed Apr 4, 2012, 11:39 AM

11. The "pick a fight" part invalidates the defense.

But you knew that already, right?

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Response to ManiacJoe (Reply #11)

Wed Apr 4, 2012, 01:12 PM

13. Depends on witnesses, if any.

 

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Response to rgbecker (Original post)

Tue Apr 3, 2012, 11:22 PM

5. If the cop was undercover, it'd be SYG.

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Response to freshwest (Reply #5)

Tue Apr 3, 2012, 11:35 PM

7. I don't think he would have to be undercover

I think the threshold in most SYG states would be if the cop was acting unlawfully, and the shooter was in reasonable fear for their life or of serious injury.

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Response to pipoman (Reply #7)

Wed Apr 4, 2012, 12:54 AM

10. In uniform? I've never heard of anyone shooting an LEO and it being called self-defense.

What I'm saying, is that there is no common relation.. Well, I'm not sure how to say it.

Everybody dressed the same (even as I type that, I feel that it's insane) then the treatment is the same. How sad that is, though.

The uniform, the badge, the authority, seems to take precedence over common sense in this case. The rogue cop who doing something as suggested in the OP, would seem to be appropriately stopped by SYG.

But in all cases, an LEO is carrying a gun. So that makes it still unequal in that the citizen is always considered less reliable than the LEO. The citizen that draws on a policeman, is going to be charged with attempted murder, or whatever.

And if the LEO sees the gun there, it can be an excuse for killing the citizen, legally. This is a nightmare scenario. In the case of the Occupy protester, his protection is being non-violent. So he should not be carrying a weapon.

There was an interesting protest in AZ where some burly open carrying men came to stand between peaceful protesters (who were a bit freaked by them in the videos) and the police. They explained by saying. 'Our second amendment rights protect our first amendment right, and theirs, too.'

It was a remarkable protest, right meets left. There was no violence, and it was not a matter of CCW. AZ had open carry, that in some states would be termed brandishing a weapon to intimidate, or something.

I'm having trouble though, answering the OP. All things being equal, a person could take all those actions he listed, but what we have to figure out, is how to justify things not being equal. Because they aren't. It's not that simple. Any help in reasoning this out would be appreciated but I'm about to drift off to sleep!

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Response to rgbecker (Original post)

Wed Apr 4, 2012, 11:56 AM

12. SYG does not apply to LEO

Florida State Statute:
776.013(2)(d) - exceptions
The person against whom the defensive force is used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who enters or attempts to enter a dwelling, residence, or vehicle in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person entering or attempting to enter was a law enforcement officer.

However, If you want to be the one to try this theory out, You will probably not live long enough to know the outcome. Shoot a LEO and try claiming self defense...Your claims will be silenced by loud, rapid fire from multiple firearms. GOOD LUCK!

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Response to ti66er8pooh (Reply #12)

Wed Apr 4, 2012, 11:28 PM

17. If you think about a typical drug raid....

Cops yelling and breaking down doors....Would be easy to be frightened that it could be a gang coming in. The officer has to identify himself or herself...but personally, in the middle of the night, if someone came breaking in the door, I'd be tempted to shoot now and identify later.

Actually, some years back, a drunk guy broke open my front door and came in the house. I held the bedroom door closed and yelled at him to get the fuck out and he wandered off down the street. I think he just got confused about which was his house or something. I guess I should have just killed him, but the truth is, I don't keep my guns loaded in the house.

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Response to rgbecker (Original post)

Wed Apr 4, 2012, 01:47 PM

14. It does not handle this. What happens

if a guy does that is that he is either shot and killed by another nearby cop or he spends the rest of his life in prison. Shooting cops is not a good idea, SYG or not. Unless you're ready for your life to end, it's not something that's recommended by anyone.

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Response to rgbecker (Original post)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 10:29 AM

19. The SYG law is a moot point in your OP.

No matter which scenario you pick in your OP, they all have the same ending - suicide by cop.

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