HomeLatest ThreadsGreatest ThreadsForums & GroupsMy SubscriptionsMy Posts
DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Main » General Discussion (Forum) » Michelle Rhee is smiling.

Wed Jun 11, 2014, 05:15 PM

Michelle Rhee is smiling.

One of her major battles against public education has been LIFO. That means Last in First out when layoffs occur. That is not an unfair way to do things, and I believe many major companies do that.

But today she is smiling. She's a big winner along with a group formed by billionaires to privatize public schools.

From what I can understand the lawsuit in effect said that minorities were hurt because bad teachers were put in their schools instead of being fired. That's paraphrasing, but I think it's the gist of it.

That hits me and many others who taught in schools heavily minority feeling very angry. Our school taught minorities, many others poor and needy, and we had some of the best teachers I ever taught with...even in the richer schools I had been in before. It's such an awful accusation to make.

You can bet your bottom dollar there were many rich folks behind those 9 students who brought the lawsuit.

From CNN today. There's video there of an interview done today.

U.S. schools chief calls California ruling 'a mandate' to fix tenure, firing laws

She's not the only one gloating today. Arne Duncan is also smiling a very big smile.

Poor and minority students are especially hurt by the laws because "grossly ineffective teachers" more often work in their schools, Los Angeles County Judge Rolf M. Treu said.

The ruling was hailed by the nation's top education chief as bringing to California -- and possibly the nation -- an opportunity to build "a new framework for the teaching profession." The decision represented "a mandate" to fix a broken teaching system, U.S. Education Secretary Arne Duncan said.

...Rhee called the ruling "groundbreaking" and a moment for the state to now build "a first-class educational system."


The union said:

"This suit is not pro-student. It is fundamentally anti-public education, scapegoating teachers for problems originating in underfunding, poverty, and economic inequality," California Federation of Teachers President Joshua Pechthalt said.

The CTA described Students Matter as a group created by Silicon Valley multimillionaire David Welch and a private public relations firm and said the group is supported by former Washington, D.C., schools chancellor "Michelle Rhee and Students First, Parent Revolution Executive Director Ben Austin, billionaire and school privatizer Eli Broad, former lawmaker Gloria Romero, and other corporate education reformers with an interest in privatizing public education and attacking teachers' unions."


The Students Matter page lists the media and politicians and other leaders who supported this lawsuit. Group's legal team headed by Ted Olson.

Students Matter

Editorial: Los Angeles Times
Editorial: The Bakersfield Californian
Editorial: San Jose Mercury News
Editorial: New York Post
Editorial: Pasadena Star-News
California Assemblywoman Kristin M. Olsen
Oakland Alliance of Black Educators
U.S. Secretary of Education Arne Duncan
Former Superintendent Jonathan Raymond, Sacramento City Unified School District
Former Superintendent Tony Smith, Oakland Unified School District
Superintendent John Deasy, Los Angeles Unified School District


A little more on it from the New York Daily News.

Tenure for teachers in California public schools ruled unconstitutional


Attorneys Theodore Boutrous, far right, and Marcellus McRae, second from right , are joined by nine California public school students who sued the state to abolish its laws on teacher tenure, seniority and other protections, during a news conference in January.

Beatriz Vergara and eight other students brought the lawsuit, claiming that bad tenured teachers amounted to a burden so unfair it violated constitutional rights.

The ruling, which affects 6 million students from kindergarten through 12th grade, potentially has national implications.


Eva Moskowitz according to the article is very very happy.

Reformers in New York hailed the decision.

Eva Moskowitz, founder of the Success Academy charter school chain, called it “a significant social justice win for children. The high failure rates in our schools wouldn’t be tolerated for hospitals, police or fire departments.”


Why is she so happy?

Moskowitz moving her charter into yet another public school. Causing tensions in NYC

The "Eva" Empire has expanded to the Bronx, bringing a Harlem turf war for school space into the borough. Eva Moskowitz, the City Council member-turned-charter school CEO, has opened two new academies from her charter school franchise, Success Charter Network, inside Public School 30 in Mott Haven, and PS 146 in Morrisania. And Bronx Success Academies 1 and 2 are already ruffling feathers with district school staffers.

..."Staffers at the district schools say their new neighbors have booted them from classrooms and stairwells, while sharing the libraries, cafeterias and playgrounds.

...."Staffers at PS 30 say Bronx Success 1 sealed off the third floor to its staff and students - even taking over a stairwell - so Success students don't mingle with their district school neighbors.

"We are not allowed there," said one PS 30 teacher, noting the classrooms taken over by Success were formerly used for tutoring children with special needs. Now we have to do therapy sessions in the hallway."


It's not just Michelle Rhee, Arne Duncan (as Obama's appointee) and Eva Moskowitz who are so happy today.

Far too many here are very happy also. As the implications of losing our unions in America sink in...some might change their minds. I doubt it.

119 replies, 9469 views

Reply to this thread

Back to top Alert abuse

Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum
Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 119 replies Author Time Post
Reply Michelle Rhee is smiling. (Original post)
madfloridian Jun 2014 OP
madfloridian Jun 2014 #1
Jefferson23 Jun 2014 #5
GeorgeGist Jun 2014 #2
madfloridian Jun 2014 #7
laundry_queen Jun 2014 #56
madfloridian Jun 2014 #57
nikto Jun 2014 #62
nikto Jun 2014 #63
SalviaBlue Jun 2014 #16
WillyT Jun 2014 #3
Jefferson23 Jun 2014 #4
madfloridian Jun 2014 #88
sabrina 1 Jun 2014 #6
zeemike Jun 2014 #37
nikto Jun 2014 #65
nikto Jun 2014 #64
madfloridian Jun 2014 #94
FloriTexan Jun 2014 #8
theaocp Jun 2014 #9
vi5 Jun 2014 #10
bvar22 Jun 2014 #11
blkmusclmachine Jun 2014 #17
nikto Jun 2014 #66
Starry Messenger Jun 2014 #12
madfloridian Jun 2014 #13
antigop Jun 2014 #15
madfloridian Jun 2014 #23
Starry Messenger Jun 2014 #18
madfloridian Jun 2014 #20
Starry Messenger Jun 2014 #22
madfloridian Jun 2014 #91
kmlisle Jun 2014 #101
madfloridian Jun 2014 #103
kmlisle Jun 2014 #104
madfloridian Jun 2014 #112
historylovr Jun 2014 #14
nonoxy9 Jun 2014 #19
Maedhros Jun 2014 #21
ancianita Jun 2014 #24
madfloridian Jun 2014 #41
msanthrope Jun 2014 #75
YOHABLO Jun 2014 #25
TexasBushwhacker Jun 2014 #26
madfloridian Jun 2014 #38
TexasBushwhacker Jun 2014 #44
Android3.14 Jun 2014 #27
randys1 Jun 2014 #28
Android3.14 Jun 2014 #34
madfloridian Jun 2014 #29
Android3.14 Jun 2014 #30
madfloridian Jun 2014 #33
Android3.14 Jun 2014 #35
madfloridian Jun 2014 #36
Android3.14 Jun 2014 #45
madfloridian Jun 2014 #48
nikto Jun 2014 #70
madfloridian Jun 2014 #80
madfloridian Jun 2014 #49
Android3.14 Jun 2014 #71
madfloridian Jun 2014 #78
Android3.14 Jun 2014 #82
madfloridian Jun 2014 #83
ancianita Jun 2014 #99
madfloridian Jun 2014 #100
nikto Jun 2014 #113
Android3.14 Jun 2014 #106
Starry Messenger Jun 2014 #52
madfloridian Jun 2014 #58
nikto Jun 2014 #69
ancianita Jun 2014 #98
Android3.14 Jun 2014 #108
sulphurdunn Jun 2014 #39
Android3.14 Jun 2014 #46
sulphurdunn Jun 2014 #73
Android3.14 Jun 2014 #79
madfloridian Jun 2014 #81
sulphurdunn Jun 2014 #84
ancianita Jun 2014 #47
Android3.14 Jun 2014 #85
ancianita Jun 2014 #92
Android3.14 Jun 2014 #93
nikto Jun 2014 #68
roody Jun 2014 #72
Android3.14 Jun 2014 #74
neverforget Jun 2014 #31
sulphurdunn Jun 2014 #40
daleanime Jun 2014 #32
The Second Stone Jun 2014 #42
madfloridian Jun 2014 #43
msanthrope Jun 2014 #77
msanthrope Jun 2014 #76
The Second Stone Jun 2014 #90
msanthrope Jun 2014 #117
The Second Stone Jun 2014 #118
msanthrope Jun 2014 #119
roody Jun 2014 #50
madfloridian Jun 2014 #51
madfloridian Jun 2014 #53
sabrina 1 Jun 2014 #67
madfloridian Jun 2014 #86
BrotherIvan Jun 2014 #54
madfloridian Jun 2014 #55
BrotherIvan Jun 2014 #59
madfloridian Jun 2014 #89
Enthusiast Jun 2014 #60
nikto Jun 2014 #61
madfloridian Jun 2014 #87
madfloridian Jun 2014 #95
liberal_at_heart Jun 2014 #96
emsimon33 Jun 2014 #97
Jakes Progress Jun 2014 #102
charmay Jun 2014 #105
madfloridian Jun 2014 #107
mstinamotorcity2 Jun 2014 #109
madfloridian Jun 2014 #110
mstinamotorcity2 Jun 2014 #111
nikto Jun 2014 #114
madfloridian Jun 2014 #115
nikto Jun 2014 #116

Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Wed Jun 11, 2014, 05:31 PM

1. More on why her smile is so big.

Right-Wing Billionaires To Use California Ruling to Nationally Crush Teachers’ Unions

The lawsuit was the brainchild of the man behind Students Matter, a close affiliate of privatization, charter school advocate Michelle Rhee’s Students first. The man, Silicon Valley entrepreneur David Welch, is a wealthy elite businessman and researcher who made his fortune in the field of optical devices and optical transport systems for telecommunications networks. He is not an educator, education administrator, or remotely related to advancing anything to do with public education other than crusading for profit-driven schools, busting teacher unions, and eliminating teachers’ due process legal protections. Welch or his billionaire corporate cohort were not interested in helping nine students in poor neighborhoods get an education.

The group of Silicon Valley billionaires is now preparing to file the exact same lawsuit, likely using nine different students’ names, in New York, Connecticut, Maryland, Oregon, New Mexico, Idaho, and Kansas as well as every other state with strong teacher unions and populations that do not support school privatization.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Reply #1)

Wed Jun 11, 2014, 05:39 PM

5. I'd love to see a lawsuit, People vs Arnie Duncan. n/t

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Wed Jun 11, 2014, 05:33 PM

2. Next they can work on disbanding countries ...

so that Free Market™ can work it's Magic. Afterall what are countries anyway but big unions.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to GeorgeGist (Reply #2)

Wed Jun 11, 2014, 05:47 PM

7. Arne is doing Newt Gingrich's Free Market Schools policy.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024363202

Gingrich's education reforms with sources.

Introduce competition among schools and teachers

We should apply the free enterprise system to our education system by introducing competition among schools, administrators, and teachers. Our educators should be paid based on their performance and held accountable based on clear standards with real consequences. These ideas are designed to stimulate thinking beyond the timid “let’s do more of the same” that has greeted every call for rethinking math and science education.
Source: Gingrich Communications website, www.newt.org Dec 1, 2006

Support charters; insist on change for failing schools
We should encourage the spread of public charter schools--one of the happiest new developments on the education scene--so parents, educators, & students working together can enjoy the maximum freedom to explore options and innovations until every child has a genuine opportunity to learn. As a corollary of this, we must identify the worst schools. We should insist on immediate change for bad schools. To start with, there should be no tenure and no binding contracts in the worst 20% of schools.Source: Lessons Learned the Hard Way, by Newt Gingrich, p.208 Jul 2, 1998

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Reply #7)

Thu Jun 12, 2014, 01:41 AM

56. That's just so amazingly fucking disgusting.

Thanks for your posts about this.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to laundry_queen (Reply #56)

Thu Jun 12, 2014, 01:55 AM

57. Apt description. lol

You are so right. For years we criticized Gingrich's ed policies, and now here we are putting them into effect. It blows my mind.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Reply #57)

Thu Jun 12, 2014, 03:58 AM

62. Regarding Ed policy, America is INSANE

 

I'm convinced, the country's gone 'round the bend.

The destruction to the system is so damn obvious.




Aaaaarrggghh!!!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Reply #7)

Thu Jun 12, 2014, 04:01 AM

63. One of the stupidest and most amoral men in recent US history, and we adopt his system

 

America's off the rails.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to GeorgeGist (Reply #2)

Wed Jun 11, 2014, 06:12 PM

16. ^^^ very good point ^^^

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Wed Jun 11, 2014, 05:34 PM

3. K & R !!!

 


Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Wed Jun 11, 2014, 05:37 PM

4. Frightening..we are talking about millions of America's children. K&R

They have to do therapy sessions in the hallway. Sickening, not one good reason for this, not one.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Jefferson23 (Reply #4)

Thu Jun 12, 2014, 10:54 AM

88. It really is.

There are other charter schools doing this in NY in the charter friendly atmosphere there.
I wrote about one who moved into a public school and took over the library the school's parents had just renovated.

They "allowed" the public school students some time to use it. Wasn't that nice of them?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Wed Jun 11, 2014, 05:39 PM

6. How did this ever happen to the Democratic Party? That we have come to the point where

Republican policies on Public School Education are now the norm? Weren't WE the ones fighting FOR the Public Schools where every child had a right to an eduction?

The dream of the Right, privatize everything, is coming true. Arne Duncan is a disgrace as is Michelle Rhee. Saw her on RT a while ago, she sounded so 'reasonable'.

I doubt anyone here who has opposed the destruction of the Public School system is happy about any of this. I don't recall any Dem being happy about Bush's Corporate Created NCLB and this is THAT enhanced beyond belief.

When Corporations are running our Education system, if people think it was bad before, wait a few years to see what this produces in terms of an 'educated' population.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #6)

Wed Jun 11, 2014, 08:15 PM

37. Let's face it we are all Republicans now.

Even here on this Democratic board...we have to support the party right or wrong or the crazy will win...they have triangulated us into the Republican party.
We can cry and moan and wring our hands but in the end we must give in...and we have been giving in for some time now...one policy at a time they move us right.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to zeemike (Reply #37)

Thu Jun 12, 2014, 04:04 AM

65. Yes, and it is a tragedy

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #6)

Thu Jun 12, 2014, 04:03 AM

64. Current Pub Ed policy is The Great Shame of Democrats

 

You are exactly right.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #6)

Thu Jun 12, 2014, 01:10 PM

94. Fact that they are Newt Gingrich's plans makes it even worse.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Wed Jun 11, 2014, 05:48 PM

8. Kicking

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Wed Jun 11, 2014, 05:50 PM

9. This is all bullshit.

When are kidz is learning ni a fue yrs, ull b singing a difrent toon.

At least, that's what MR and AD will be thinking tonight as they toast champagne. I wonder what they'll say when their fucking TFA toadies are the way of the walk? Should I say more or am I fucking clear?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Wed Jun 11, 2014, 05:56 PM

10. Let's not forget who else is smiling.....

Two of her biggest swooning fanboys: Arne Duncan, and his boss.

Both of them have done as much to damage public education, teachers, and teachers unions as any Republican has, by on yet another issue shifting the acceptable narrative so far to the right that now "all reasonable, serious people agree......" that teachers unions are the problem and that public education can only be fixed by destroying them.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Wed Jun 11, 2014, 05:58 PM

11. More Union Busting co-sponsored by a Democratic Administration.

Was there a time before we had Organized LABOR?
YES!!!
It was called the Gilded Age, and the 1% lived VERY well.

We are headed there again,
bu this new Gilded Age 2.0 will be worse.
We could stop it,
IF the Working Class had a Political Party that represented them.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bvar22 (Reply #11)

Wed Jun 11, 2014, 06:32 PM

17. Time lo look at facts. We have a "Democratic Party" in nothing but name.

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bvar22 (Reply #11)

Thu Jun 12, 2014, 04:08 AM

66. I too am sick of it

 

Democrats are basically turning into Republicans who support abortion and gay rights.

That's really what's happening, when you think about it.


But we need to ask ourselves...
Are a couple of social issues enough anymore to keep us in line, while the rest of our society goes to shit?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Wed Jun 11, 2014, 06:02 PM

12. Erik Hanushek of the right-wing Hoover Institution was one of the witnesses.




<snip>

The plaintiffs called just two witnesses — Eric Hanushek, a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution at Stanford and an expert in using economic analysis in education, and Anthony Smith, a former superintendent of the Oakland Unified School District.

Both were used to amplify testimony of other plaintiffs’ witnesses and to refute testimony of defense witnesses. Hanushek spent most of his time on the stand defending his belief that using value-added measures of teachers is critical for evaluating their effectiveness and supporting a recent Stanford report that showed LA Unified charter schools did a better job educating students than traditional district schools.

While plaintiffs attorney Marcellus McRae steered clear of asking about an even more recent Stanford report, a survey of all California charters that showed they performed about the same as regular public schools, a lawyer for the unions, Peder Thoreen, went right at it, only to be swatted back by objections because Hanushek said he had been out of the country when the report was released, and he was not entirely familiar with it.

That struck some of the lawyers as a bit disengenuous in that Hanushek’s wife, Macke Raymond, wrote both reports.

“It is a pretty outrageous statement given that it was written by his wife,”
Jonathan Weisglass, a lawyer for the defense, said during an afternoon recess. “And it, in fact, says that for the entire state of California, that the performance of charter schools is equal to or worse than traditional public schools. It’s far less favorable to charter schools than the LA study. So it’s really kind of odd and surprising that he was only familiar with that one.”

<snip>



http://laschoolreport.com/vergara-trial-ends-objections-closings/

Why VAM is not not useful when employed in the manner that ed deformers use it, by statisticians:

http://blog.hmleague.org/asa-statement-on-using-value-added-models-for-educational-assessment/



<snip>

*VAMs are complex statistical models, and high-level statistical expertise is needed to develop the models and interpret their results.

*Estimates from VAMs should always be accompanied by measures of precision and a discussion of the assumptions and possible limitations of the model. These limitations are particularly relevant if VAMs are used for high stakes purposes.

*VAMs are generally based on standardized test scores, and do not directly measure potential teacher contributions toward other student outcomes.

*VAMs typically measure correlation, not causation:
*Effects – positive or negative –attributed to a teacher may actually be caused by other factors that are not captured in the model.

*Under some conditions, VAM scores and rankings can change substantially when a different model or test is used, and a thorough analysis should be undertaken to evaluate the sensitivity of estimates to different models.

<snip>

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Starry Messenger (Reply #12)

Wed Jun 11, 2014, 06:06 PM

13. They really pulled off a big deal today. Money talks, and we know about BS

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink



Response to antigop (Reply #15)

Wed Jun 11, 2014, 07:08 PM

23. Thanks, I missed that.

Heading to read it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Reply #13)

Wed Jun 11, 2014, 06:38 PM

18. It's baffling.

I don't think the judge read anything other than ed reform boiler plate. Maybe he's ready to retire. I'm angry but I feel sure this will never survive an appeal.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Starry Messenger (Reply #18)

Wed Jun 11, 2014, 06:51 PM

20. I hope you are right.

Fingers crossed, but there are other battles by this group set up down the road.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Reply #20)

Wed Jun 11, 2014, 06:55 PM

22. And not one dime from them or any of them to actually help education.

No money to hire teachers, to help build schools or even to donate to campaigns to pass funding bills. Civil rights, my feisty ass.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Starry Messenger (Reply #22)

Thu Jun 12, 2014, 12:14 PM

91. On the way...cheaper teachers, temp teachers, no benefits, no tenure.

Not good.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Reply #91)

Thu Jun 12, 2014, 05:07 PM

101. Also teachers who no longer dare to advocate for the children in their classrooms

Which often means pushing back against ed reform. The truth is that experienced teachers with tenure are good for kids and bad for ed reform

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to kmlisle (Reply #101)

Thu Jun 12, 2014, 05:18 PM

103. If I were teaching in FL now, I would never cross kids or parents.

That's no way to get done what often needs to be done. Schools have resources for children who need help, and whose parents do not want to hear it. I used to correspond with doctors, even hospitals when kids needed them. Our team of teachers got one child help in Shriners hospital. He showed up several years later to thank us...he was walking normally. The mother had grudgingly allowed him to have treatments, but had threatened several of us first.

Teachers won't take those chances now and I don't blame them at all.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Reply #103)

Thu Jun 12, 2014, 05:27 PM

104. My experiences were with administrators on issues like scheduling and curriculum

The tenured teachers were always the ones who pushed back while the young teachers without a professional contract never said a word. (I have to admit we worked together and hijacked data meetings by bringing in issues we were concerned about) Lucky for me I worked in a school with a lot of respect between teachers and admin so they did listen and kids did win some. Good teachers are by definition advocates for the children they teach and taking away tenure takes away many chances to be that advocate. No one except families see as much of those children and understand what they need other than their classroom teachers. For me that is the major reason that tenure is important.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Reply #103)

Thu Jun 12, 2014, 06:46 PM

112. My last 4 years I had the principal from hell.

She once told the coach and me that a mom said her daughter was being picked on during PE. She said fix it. We both told her we had joint conferences with the parent to let her know her child was the bully. A very bad bully.

The principal said she told us to fix it and did not want to hear excuses.

The mother was on drugs much of the time, and we could not even get her to listen.

We simply could not fix it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Wed Jun 11, 2014, 06:10 PM

14. K & R

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Wed Jun 11, 2014, 06:43 PM

19. I think our only hope against these Corporate Education types is

that, one day, the anger and energy of those parents that they have been using to sell their snake oil, will turn on them. And when the truth comes out that Rhee and the rest have just been trying to get rich at the expense of our nation's youth, they'll get run out on a rail!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Wed Jun 11, 2014, 06:54 PM

21. This issue perfectly illustrates how broken is our political system.

 

"Vote for Democrats!" they say.

"They're better than Republicans!" they say.

But what we get are Democrats that behave like Republicans. What good does it do for our schools when we elect Democrats, but then they appoint absolutely despicable people like Duncan and Rhee who proceed to destroy public education?

The party rank-and-file need to put the fear of God into Democratic politicians so that they know that if they stab us in the back like this, there will be electoral consequences.

Right now, there are no consequences for Democratic politicians that govern as Republicans.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Wed Jun 11, 2014, 07:21 PM

24. Students? Minors? Voters? Since when do they have either qualifications, evidence or standing to

prove that tenure fails the way they say it fails. This is corporate manipulation of the privatizing interests of the few over the overriding interests of the citizenry.

What is all the data-based evidence that they used to make their case? I find it hard to believe that this won't be thrown out on appeal.

Every state should decide on the constitution of its schools constitutionally, not judicially.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ancianita (Reply #24)

Wed Jun 11, 2014, 09:23 PM

41. Yes, it is manipulation.

It really is that.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ancianita (Reply #24)

Thu Jun 12, 2014, 08:52 AM

75. Indeed...how did the 13 child Plaintiffs in Brown have the qualifications, evidence, or standing for

 

an Equal Protection claim, just like these students? In Brown, the political interest group, the NAACP, and Thurgood Marshall put together a class of minority Plaintiffs that challenged the viewpoint of the citizenry.

The ruling relies heavily on Brown....can you tell me specifically what the judge got wrong?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Wed Jun 11, 2014, 07:22 PM

25. Michelle Rhee .. I can't stand that woman.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Wed Jun 11, 2014, 07:30 PM

26. Who is going to take the place of all the "bad" teachers?

I was a public school teacher for 9 years in a suburban, predominantly white school district. My mother taught in a urban, predominantly minority school district for 21 years (Houston ISD). One thing we both witnessed was that teachers who were the principal's favorites were awarded the best schedules (honors students, small classes) and teachers the principal didn't like were punished by having to teach the basics classes with students who were 2 or 3 years below grade level. A soccer coach who also teaches biology and shows films half the school year has nothing to worry about as long as his team is winning.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to TexasBushwhacker (Reply #26)

Wed Jun 11, 2014, 09:03 PM

38. TFA is waiting to come in through the now open door.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelle_Rhee

That's where Michelle Rhee started out. She founded a similar project, The New Teacher project. This is all very convenient for them.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Reply #38)

Wed Jun 11, 2014, 10:30 PM

44. But few of those teachers stay

Most use it as a resume builder.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Wed Jun 11, 2014, 07:32 PM

27. I also taught for 8 years, and LIFO is vile

 

I've seen more useless burned out lazy teachers who arrive at school two minutes before the last bell of first period, teach from their desks, pass kids for writing their names on papers, and hit the door at the exact moment the clock hits their exit time, and these teachers keep their jobs as entire programs in music, art, science and language turn into nothing but rubber stamps of mediocrity. And then I will see a new teacher, still full of the fire that called her to the classroom, coming in early, staying late, working weekends, inspiring students and raising the bar for everone while receiving a pittance, and when the layoffs come through, the good teachers lose their jobs and the bad teachers keep floating in the toilet that their classroom has become.
I've seen excellent, award winning teachers, moving into a new area to teach, and having to start all over again with the local union. At my last teaching position, when the RIF came through, even with eight years of experience under my belt, because I was new to that district which is still suffering from lack of academic progress today, I was at the top of the RIF list.
I understand the need for unions, and I was a member of the teachers union for eight years. But teachers' unions, in their current form, have dumbed down our kids, shielded incompetent teachers, and contributed to the early burnout of our youngest and most vital instructors.
I don't know that LIFO should be eliminated completely, but the way it works now is a travesty.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Android3.14 (Reply #27)

Wed Jun 11, 2014, 07:37 PM

28. I dont know enough about it to know if you are right or not but the answer

is fix the union, not kill it

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to randys1 (Reply #28)

Wed Jun 11, 2014, 07:58 PM

34. Exactly

 

Teacher's unions need to be more like trade guilds, police their membership, and establish their own education standards. If a member is unable to meet those standards, the union should take steps to help the teacher, and if he or she is unable to improve, drop them as members.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Android3.14 (Reply #27)

Wed Jun 11, 2014, 07:39 PM

29. The career teachers with years behind them of hard work also work late, love kids. are passionate.

So that is really a bunch of Michelle Rhee hooey, that only new fresh teachers are worthy.

It's baloney.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Reply #29)

Wed Jun 11, 2014, 07:50 PM

30. Don't put words in my mouth

 

Shame on you. I said the policy keeps worthless teachers only because they have been teaching at a particular district for years and eliminates new teachers, including some of the best, just because they haven't been at that district for long.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Android3.14 (Reply #30)

Wed Jun 11, 2014, 07:56 PM

33. Not true. So not true. And I have enough people jumping all over me right now....

so enough is enough.

I put no words in your mouth. I know many teachers who spent their careers at one school, and they become better teachers every year.

That is "reformer" talk, and it is hurting our public education system for the benefit of billionaires who are greedy.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Reply #33)

Wed Jun 11, 2014, 08:03 PM

35. The problem with our ed system has been developing for 50 years

 

I come from a long line of teachers, and my mother was the head of the retired teachers union in north Texas for years. Unions have their place. But in their current form, they support bad old teachers, crush talented new teachers, and do nothing to improve their craft.
I also know teachers who spent their careers at a single school and became better teachers every year. My mom was one of them. I also know teachers who burned out, becoming zombies in class, and going through superficial motions and leaving their students in abject ignorance for decades.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Android3.14 (Reply #35)

Wed Jun 11, 2014, 08:08 PM

36. "bad old teachers" there's that old folks theme again.

BTW I never did know a zombie teacher.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Reply #36)

Wed Jun 11, 2014, 10:53 PM

45. Irrelevant

 

Look, I know education is one of your target topics, but I can tell you have little idea what the teaching experience is like. People might be picking on you, and you might feel a need to derail the discussion.

Still, you need to understand something.

I've been in the classroom trenches with fellow teachers, and just like any other collection of people, there are good ones and bad ones. The profession tends to draw people with good intentions, at least initially. But any idiot knows that good teachers can change, and almost-incompetent teachers can hang around for decades.

Most senior teachers are awesome, but some are not.

The teachers unions, as they are, throw new highly talented and recently trained teachers under the union bus when there is a RIF, while it protects the elder incompetent teachers to the detriment of their students and the profession that called them.

Additionally, teachers unions can also allow administrators to exert covert and overt pressure on other teachers to ignore unacceptable behavior, and label students as proficient who have refused to learn.

I am not talking out of my ass here.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Android3.14 (Reply #45)

Wed Jun 11, 2014, 11:54 PM

48. "I can tell you have little idea what the teaching experience is like" Did you really say that?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Reply #48)

Thu Jun 12, 2014, 04:39 AM

70. Unbelievable comment by Android3.14, who is losing credibility, FAST

 

Total insult, and totally inaccurate.

Android is falling fast.

I forgive Android for his ignorance. He can't help it.

But the dude seems stunningly un-evolved.



Android3.14 is unworthy to make such a comment about you.



Personally, I prefer Android 22/7.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to nikto (Reply #70)

Thu Jun 12, 2014, 09:11 AM

80. Still doesn't believe me. See post $71. Amazing.

I appreciate your post, and yes it is a wee bit insulting. But I would never alert. Not worth the effort anymore.



Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Android3.14 (Reply #45)

Thu Jun 12, 2014, 12:08 AM

49. You can see short "about me" at this link. Yes, I have good knowledge of teaching.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Reply #49)

Thu Jun 12, 2014, 06:46 AM

71. Okay

 

People can claim whatever they want about themselves online. I've made claims about myself that would be difficult to prove, but the only thing that counts in anonymous forums, when it comes to claimed competence in a topic, is the consistency of the author's message and whether it coincides with the reader's own research and experience.

I have never run across a teacher in the real world who is unable to recognize that teacher unions, in their current form, protect bad teachers along with good teachers and sacrifice new teachers in a RIF. Many professional teachers dislike the pragmatic reality of the situation while still paying their dues to the union, but all of us recognize the way things are.

Folks on this thread may be unhappy with this, but, as most great teachers and philosophers have taught, reality is hardly ever a source of happiness.

If anyone wants to argue specific points, I'll be glad to do so.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Android3.14 (Reply #71)

Thu Jun 12, 2014, 09:06 AM

78. You got me, Android3.14. I have been fooling folks since 2002 in 80,000+ posts. lol

It's amazing to be just found out.

What you said is probably so very true.


People can claim whatever they want about themselves online. I've made claims about myself that would be difficult to prove, but the only thing that counts in anonymous forums, when it comes to claimed competence in a topic, is the consistency of the author's message and whether it coincides with the reader's own research and experience.


Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Reply #78)

Thu Jun 12, 2014, 09:24 AM

82. Super-high posting numbers

 

Are you saying that, because you have 80,000 posts in 12 years, that this proves your opinion has more value than another person's?
If I had one more post than you did, does this make me that much more knowledgeable than you about any subject? Perhaps, rather than educate our children, we should simply have them make posts to forums, which would be much less expensive, and, based on your implication, a better methodology.
Super high posting numbers are an ineffective tool of rhetoric, and more a reflection of how much time a person spends online. I don't know whether you are truthful in the persona you represent online or not. That has nothing to do with anything.
Like I said, if you want to argue the merits, I'm willing.
But this conversation appears to be simply falling into obtuse willful ignorance, for which I have little time or patience. Going forward, I'll respond when your posts actually address the topic.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Android3.14 (Reply #82)

Thu Jun 12, 2014, 09:35 AM

83. No, it goes to credibility only. Hard to survive 12 years without being "found out".

You seem to have a real problem with me personally.

Why is that.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Android3.14 (Reply #71)

Thu Jun 12, 2014, 04:09 PM

99. ALL organizations. ALL professional organizations might hide "bad" somebodies, but you don't hear

people like you saying, " Oh, crush the AMA," "Get rid of the Lawyers Guild" because they have a few -- not BAD, but just not the stereotype of good -- doctors and lawyers, now do you. Hell, no. So let's not say that no doctor or lawyer has not heard of bad lawyers and doctors being "protected" by those organizations, either. Because they'll laugh in your face.

As a 34+ career high school teacher and sometime college instructor, I have never seen tenure eever, ever, ever make teachers "bad" or "lazy." If any "bad" teachers get DUE PROCESS protections from tenure, it's PRINCIPALS who conferred their tenure. Principals.

While you're crediting teachers who have taught that reality is not all positive, remember that they also have taught that one does not "throw out the baby with the bath water," which is where you and your supporters want to go.


I'm sick. sick. sick. of this teacher hating. Stop it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ancianita (Reply #99)

Thu Jun 12, 2014, 04:11 PM

100. Yes, teachers are now the enemy at a Democratic forum.

That's what Arne's attacks on teachers has done. It is shameful time in our history of education.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Reply #100)

Thu Jun 12, 2014, 07:54 PM

113. American Teachers have no friends in politics anymore

 

GOPers. Dems are all the same, and want privatization.

People who want to Privatize US Public Schools are lying scumbags to the core.
FACT, not opinion.

So I could be accused of "giving no quarter"?

Hell, I wouldn't give the privatizers and public school-haters a bent penny.

I refuse to use euphemisms when I attack them now.
They are hideous, evil traitors. They are America-Destroyers.

I wish them much fracking
VERY near their homes.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ancianita (Reply #99)

Thu Jun 12, 2014, 06:01 PM

106. Misunderstanding

 

Who said tenure makes a teacher bad? Certainly not I. I said that LIFO, in the form of tenure perhaps, protects bad teachers as well as good teachers.
I've also taught math and science in public schools, secondary and as college adjunct, for 8 years, in four different districts, on the northern and southern borders of the U.S.. We moved a great deal in order to follow Mrs. 'Droid's career. Each time, I had to start over with the local union to wait out my two years before I would receive any support, and each time, a RIF occurred and I was booted.
I love teachers. I love teaching. If I had any indication that our public system would allow me to actually teach, I'd leap back into it.
My criticism of LIFO is specific on two points. It throws good newly minted teachers under the bus when a RIF occurs, and it protects the few bad teachers for the simple reason that they have seniority.
I recommend that teacher unions start behaving like professional guilds in which the organization determines their standards, and their fees for service (salary). If a member of the union undermines the fees or is unable to meet the standards, then the union should boot them. Unions should also take on the states that make it illegal to strike. I'd also recommend the union determine what is acceptable behavior from their clients and refuse to serve students who misbehave to the point that they disrupt other students' learning.
I believe, in a RIF, the determination for termination should include more than seniority.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Android3.14 (Reply #45)

Thu Jun 12, 2014, 12:55 AM

52. Yes, actually. You are.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Starry Messenger (Reply #52)

Thu Jun 12, 2014, 02:35 AM

58. .....

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Reply #36)

Thu Jun 12, 2014, 04:35 AM

69. Me neither

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Reply #33)

Thu Jun 12, 2014, 03:59 PM

98. Absolutely, positively right and true ALL OVER this country. The corporate meme of "the longer

they stay, and older they get, the worse they get" is complete and utter horseshit.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ancianita (Reply #98)

Thu Jun 12, 2014, 06:07 PM

108. Not what I said

 

Absolutely not what I said.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Android3.14 (Reply #27)

Wed Jun 11, 2014, 09:07 PM

39. Your argument is predicated

 

on the assumption that you are a better judge of how others teach than their evaluators. You even presume to make this judgement based upon indicators such as how early they arrive for work or how long they stay after school or how many years they have in the profession. Without proof you claim that seniority systems sacrifice good (younger) teachers for the benefit of older (bad) teachers. Your whole position is one sweeping generalization. If you were a member of a union that wasn't working correctly, and did nothing to change that situation, then that's your fault and the fault of all those teachers still "full of the fire" who should have devoted some of that blazing talent to the democratic structure of their union.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sulphurdunn (Reply #39)

Wed Jun 11, 2014, 11:03 PM

46. You can be sure of that assumption

 

My evaluators were always administrators lacking a degree or even training in the subjects I taught (math and physics), coming into my room, marking checklists and then leaving within 10 minutes. I always received awesome evaluations. Hell, we all did. If you didn't receive at least a half dozen EQs, then the evaluator was out to get you or you must be mentally defective.
But don't mistake an assumption with a presumption. My argument is predicated on how teachers unions tend to work and simple logic.
And unfortunately, it is a sweeping generalization of one of the roots of the problem with our education system.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Android3.14 (Reply #46)

Thu Jun 12, 2014, 08:42 AM

73. Back it up.

 

education does nothing if not collect data. Show me evidence that supports you allegations with evidence to suggest that the evaluation system you claim didn't work at your school(s) is endemic to public education unions or to public schools in general. Where is the correlation between the evaluation system you decry and evidence of inferior classroom pedagogy? I'm not interested in the "simple logic" of your inferences. I have been a public school teacher for 25 years, and I've taught in both wealthy and poor systems, with and without unions. The only predictable indicators I have ever encountered that would explain educational outcomes have been socioeconomic and not pedagogical, and that is supported by evidence.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sulphurdunn (Reply #73)

Thu Jun 12, 2014, 09:08 AM

79. Misunderstanding me.

 

I took the same courses. Socio-economic status is the strongest indicator of academic success, followed by the education level of the parents.
You are mistaking my criticism of the original post and teacher unions in their current form as criticism of teachers. That is not the case.
I'm not saying the evaluations cause inferior classroom pedagogy. I'm saying they are useless because the evaluators are unqualified to do the task. I taught math and science, and I almost always had an administrator who taught history or PE or some other unrelated subject evaluating me.
Still, here are some links to expert opinion and research
"In your typical teacher evaluation system, it’s mostly the principals and some assistant principals who do evaluations."
Praise inflation
Little or no correlation between teacher evaluations and results.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Android3.14 (Reply #79)

Thu Jun 12, 2014, 09:21 AM

81. 2 of your links refer to Charlotte Danielson evaluation.

Many teachers find those methods punitive and time-consuming.

We have had discussions here about her methods. I see you linked to the Ed.gov, which means Arne's views and contempt of teachers shines through.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Android3.14 (Reply #79)

Thu Jun 12, 2014, 09:36 AM

84. OK.

 

I jumped the gun and apologize. Yes, current teacher evaluation systems are imperfect. They go back to the days when everyone already knew who was a good teacher and who wasn't. If a member of the teaching staff was not trying to teach, or to become a better teacher, the system served well in removing that teacher. Of course, it also placed unwarranted power into the hands of administrators. Unions served as a balance against that, but maintaining balance is always difficult. The problem now is to determine what works better. Obviously, predicating professional competence with standardized test scores is far worse than the current system, where at least the interactions are human. Where I teach we use a system based upon a combination of 3 classroom observations that last for an entire period. Content expertise is assumed and a rubric is used to assess the lesson plan for desired indicators such as differentiation and cooperative learning, among others. Statistically measurable indicators of student improvement, designed by individual teachers or academic departments are included in portfolios of professional development. This includes such things as evidence of innovative implementation of curricula, published work in the content area and whatever else a teacher wished to include. There are 20 indicators discussed during evaluation conferences. While this system is itself imperfect, it does combine both objective and subjective information into the system.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Android3.14 (Reply #27)

Wed Jun 11, 2014, 11:33 PM

47. LIFO is a staffing formula unrelated to tenure, which is solely every principal's decision.

Which most states have now denied.

LIFO is probably here to stay, and is a district-run seniority system based on experience, whether a union exists or not. It was developed by districts because was part of the business model in this country. Teachers didn't invent the concept of seniority. Unions try to make districts use LIFO fairly by making districts provide student numbers behind their RIF claims. Often RIFs are just attempts to cut back on contracted benefits districtwide.

The ruination of education is that citizens have let the business mentality take over their schools, and exploit the art and science of professionals who know how to make a difference in the hearts and minds of communities' children.

By the way, there is no such thing as a lazy teacher.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ancianita (Reply #47)

Thu Jun 12, 2014, 09:41 AM

85. "By the way, there is no such thing as a lazy teacher."

 

Put the qualifier "good" in front of the word "teacher" and I can agree with that.

As far as the origins of LIFO, I don't know much about it. As far as the ruination of education, I think there are several factors, including the business mentality and LIFO. It also includes the celebration of mediocrity, low pay, lack of support for teachers by administrators when it comes to classroom management, unwillingness of teachers (through their unions) to accept some measure of responsibility for education outcomes, and a need for a national curriculum, among others.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Android3.14 (Reply #85)

Thu Jun 12, 2014, 12:24 PM

92. What? You're saying there's no such thing as a good teacher? I don't get it.


Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ancianita (Reply #92)

Thu Jun 12, 2014, 12:32 PM

93. I'm saying there is no such thing as a lazy good teacher

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Android3.14 (Reply #27)

Thu Jun 12, 2014, 04:31 AM

68. I'm sure...

 

You are a great and wonderful teacher, and you got shafted so some slimy incompetent
POS could keep their job. Total injustice. All very simple...

You--Great, lost job.
They--Suck, kept job.


Am I in the ballpark?


Poor victim of cosmic injustice.



Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Android3.14 (Reply #27)

Thu Jun 12, 2014, 08:41 AM

72. I have never seen this. The teachers

at my school work their butts off. You see their cars there weekends and evenings. They volunteer for family nights, etc.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to roody (Reply #72)

Thu Jun 12, 2014, 08:47 AM

74. Most of the teachers at my school did too

 

Most teachers work their butts off and deserve an enormous pay increase. I advocate that teachers receive pay that is 2-3 times what they currently receive.
But we both know, just like with any workforce, there are those particular teachers...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Wed Jun 11, 2014, 07:53 PM

31. As a member of a union, we need to hang together or surely we will hang

separately.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to neverforget (Reply #31)

Wed Jun 11, 2014, 09:19 PM

40. Haven't you heard?

 

Younger, highly motivated and talented individuals don't need unions, only unproductive, burned out old hacks who should have moved on years ago need them. See, education shouldn't be a collegial undertaking. It should be a competitive, take no prisoners fight to the top. You know, like on Wall Street. That's best for the kids.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Wed Jun 11, 2014, 07:55 PM

32. K&R....

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Wed Jun 11, 2014, 09:25 PM

42. The judge's tentative decision is amatuer hour

 

I've read it and there is no way that this tentative decision can be upheld in the Court of Appeal. The judge is illiterate when it comes to constitutional law. The final decision may have suggestions cut and pasted from the Plaintiff's lawyers, but it is hard to imagine this as the foundation of anything.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to The Second Stone (Reply #42)

Wed Jun 11, 2014, 10:28 PM

43. I hope so. This is such manipulation of young people against their school system.

Thanks for the opinion. I have no background in legal terms.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Reply #43)

Thu Jun 12, 2014, 08:55 AM

77. Madflo...which plaintiff do you think was manipulated? nt

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to The Second Stone (Reply #42)

Thu Jun 12, 2014, 08:54 AM

76. Thankfully, I've finally encountered another DUer who has read the actual decision! Tell us

 

what you think is grounds for appeal?


Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to msanthrope (Reply #76)

Thu Jun 12, 2014, 11:58 AM

90. Here is my take

 

That strict scrutiny does not apply because it isn't a strict scrutiny group of plaintiffs. Also, the judge relied on the testimony of an expert that 1 to 3 percent of teachers are incompetent therefore the remedy is to remove protections for all teachers via tenure. It doesn't follow, there is no causation and the remedy is not narrowly tailored.

The judge is a legal illiterate. The tentative part of the decision means that the Plaintiffs may offer language that makes more sense for the final decision.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to The Second Stone (Reply #90)

Fri Jun 13, 2014, 01:48 PM

117. strict scrutiny doesn't apply to SES minority defendants???

 

That's a fairly astonishing argument..... Do you have any citations in California law that might back your claim???

I shoot for the rest of your paragraph that you would appeal the judges reliance on a particular expert as an abuse of discretion. How would you frame that argument??

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to msanthrope (Reply #117)

Fri Jun 13, 2014, 02:02 PM

118. subject

 

That they haven't established by evidence (which may be forthcoming in the final decision) that the incompetent 1 to 3 percent of teachers are inflicted on a discriinatorily affected group, such as race, ethnicity, sex, etc. and not the whole of the student body. For strict scrutiny to apply, it must be shown that the impact falls disproportionately upon the protected minority as contrasted to the general population.

The particular expert that the judge relied on has stated that he pulled the 1 to 3 percent number out of the air as a ballpark estimate, and thus lacks any foundation and should not have been admitted, much less relied upon.

And a 1 to 3 percent failure rate of teachers, while not perfect, is not perfect, not a catastrophe of constitutional proportions. Any remedy must be narrowly tailored to fix the ill in a constitutional overturning of a legislative scheme, and removing the tenure protections of 99 to 97 percent that are not failures is hardly narrowly tailored. An example of narrow tailoring would be the suspension of tenure for the 1 to 3 percent of teachers who are utter failures. But the judge shows his true colors by wiping out all tenure. The judge equivalent would be removing a judge from the bench if a certain percentage of his/her decisions are overturned. By this judge's logic, continued employment of a judge who is overturned in a decision is unconstitutional.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to The Second Stone (Reply #118)

Fri Jun 13, 2014, 10:53 PM

119. As to your first paragraph, that

 

is precisely what was shown.

As to the second, cite please?

Third, as I read it, the solution is narrow, because it does not eliminate tenure, but like the recent LAUSD lawsuit (which I describe in my journal) allows for a modification by consent decree.

Again....is your claim that the judge abused his discretion with respect to a particular witness?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Thu Jun 12, 2014, 12:08 AM

50. They must have promised those students

a job for life!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Thu Jun 12, 2014, 12:34 AM

51. Tenured Harvard professors who testified in Vergera against teacher tenure....

should give up their own...quote from Diane Ravitch.

https://twitter.com/DianeRavitch/status/476566864274149376

Diane Ravitch ‏@DianeRavitch

Harvard professors who testified against teacher tenure in Vergara trial should give up their tenure at Harvard.


I agree.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Thu Jun 12, 2014, 01:01 AM

53. You know you are no longer relevant when...

....someone tells you that you don't know what the teaching experience is like. Bam! Then you know you've been fooling yourself that your posts are being read.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Reply #53)

Thu Jun 12, 2014, 04:10 AM

67. That doesn't make YOU irrelevant, MF. It means there are some people around who are in serious

denial and knee jerk react to anything they perceive as a threat to them and/or the agenda of those they want to protect for whatever reason.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink



Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Thu Jun 12, 2014, 01:04 AM

54. Air Traffic Controllers

As the offspring of a teacher this sickens me. My mother taught 41 years in an impoverished and dangerous neighborhood. Thankfully, she retired with a pension that allowed us to take care of her until her death. At her memorial former students came, generations of families my mother taught, and told me how she changed their lives. Three of them became teachers and credit my mother with the inspiration.

In that time of stability, when she and her fellow teachers who all were long timers, administrators came and went. Some better than others, some so bad that parents and teachers demanded she be replaced. But the tenured teachers made the school a stable place and a focus of the community it served.

Anyone who has a child had better stand up for public education and that means teachers. If they think cowed, underpaid teachers with no job security working hours they are not paid for are the solution to education they are sadly mistaken. But by the time they figure it out it will be too late. I doubt they will be able to fill the need for teachers, but that's ok, send your kid to some mill with uncredentialed teachers with little experience in the classroom.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to BrotherIvan (Reply #54)

Thu Jun 12, 2014, 01:10 AM

55. "the tenured teachers made the school a stable place and focus of community" Vital.

Thanks for posting that. It's scary to think ahead to there being no neighborhood schools, no community activities in them. I was raised in schools like that, and it was so important.

I was thinking today when I wrote this about Reagan and PATCO. What a bad day that was for unions. I found this article in the NYT from 2011 looking back at that time and pointing out the bad effects it has had.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/03/opinion/reagan-vs-patco-the-strike-that-busted-unions.html?_r=0

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Reply #55)

Thu Jun 12, 2014, 02:42 AM

59. Yes bashing unions is always seen as the tough guy position

The reight has done an excellent job of demonizing union workers as lazy and protected. I don't have television, and whenever I went over to my mother's I was always shocked at least once a week there was an anti-teacher story on the local news. Without fail. Or a Dr. Phil about teachers being perverts. Not that we should turn a bling eye to this issue, but there were never positive stories. Even Sandy Hook, the teachers were not identified, nor was their heroism highlighted.

Busting unions is the wet dream of the corporations. Democrats need to fight against it, not enable it. These billionaires against education are a blight. Every public employee might have to get together in a national strike (and police that means you.)

Thanks for fighting for teachers!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to BrotherIvan (Reply #59)

Thu Jun 12, 2014, 11:46 AM

89. It's having a huge effect on what were once middle class dreams.

Maybe that's the purpose after all.

Even when jobs reappear they are low wages, few benefits.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Thu Jun 12, 2014, 03:23 AM

60. Kicked and recommended a whole bunch!

I was saddened by this decision.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Thu Jun 12, 2014, 03:46 AM

61. Unbelievable decision----America is destroying itself!!

 

No foreign enemies necessary.

America-hating terrorists only have to sit back and watch America dis-embowel itself.

Seppuku on a national scale, just because a bunch of fuckhead investors and money-makers
want some easy plunder. Politicians are in for part of the take, so most are just enablers.

Sympathetic elite-owned mass-media kicks-in with a drumbeat of "failing schools! failing schools!!"
or "Teacher in sex-abuse case--Film at 11!" providing a background of noise-level support for
the investor/privatizers relentless siege on Public School Teachers.

Teachers and schools are not equipped to fight back in
the ways necessary to save themselves, so they are easy prey now for big money.

The Privatizers' modus operandi:
Big Money just gets a few local unhappy parents, sublimates their gripes (which may be legit in many cases),
uses the families as window-dressing, wins again (as with Parent Trigger, or a misgided court case like this),
weakens unions, cut teachers' pay/benefits and investors pocket the money shaken loose
via for-profit charter schools.

Later on, the parents often realize they were duped and used, but alas, too late, as their school is
subsequently run by portfolio managers in another part of the country, and local control has, in reality, been LOST.

As a retired teacher, I probably shouldn't let myself be bothered so much by this loathsome process.

But I enjoyed the benefits of REAL, NON-PROFIT public schools, both as a student and later an employee,
and goddamn it, with all its problems, the system worked.

Now?
Not so much.
And it will only get much worse.

This is how a foolish nation dies.

Slowly.

Self-inflicted.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Thu Jun 12, 2014, 10:10 AM

87. Karoli at Crooks and Liars had a good article about this case in March.

New information pulls back the curtain on the wealthy businessmen funding the latest legal attack on teachers.

As defense attorneys in the Los Angeles "bad teacher" trial defend teachers' right to due process and a fair hearing of accusations regarding their effectiveness or lack thereof, let's have a look at those funding the effort.

David Welch: David Welch is a wealthy Silicon Valley businessman who is the founder of Students Matter. His bio on the Students Matter website says "is passion for public education arises from his roles both as a parent of three school-aged children and as an employer in two highly successful start-ups in Silicon Valley."

....(John) Radford is the mayor of Los Altos Hills, a Silicon Valley suburb that ranks as one of the wealthiest towns in the country. Interestingly, this small town is home to a charter school: Bullis Charter School. Unlike traditional charter schools, Bullis operates essentially as a government-subsidized private school. According to a 2011 Bloomberg News article, Taxpayers Get Billed for Kids of Millionaires at Charter School, parents are expected to contribute up to $5,000 per student at Bullis, which is attended by a disproportionately white and wealthy students.

...Donald Scifres: Silicon Valley venture capitalist and rightwing financier Donald Scifres has donated $33,000 to Students Matter over two years. Scifres also donated a total of $10,500 to two groups who campaigned against Prop. 30: Howard Jarvis Taxpayers Association and Californians for Reform & Jobs.



Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Thu Jun 12, 2014, 02:46 PM

95. Welch is starting a nationwide fight on teacher due process.

They call it tenure, but it's really a way for teachers to get due process. As it stands now in Florida teachers pray no students or parents complain about them, and they hope to never be too controversial. They are careful not to make waves.

No new teachers in Florida have gotten tenure since 2011.

Older teachers are under fire now for having tenure. Some are trying to take that away as well.

We used to be able as teachers to have the difficult talks with parents about their child, even when they were in denial. We had a support system backing us up when hard decisions had to be made about special programs or getting help for a child.

That support system no longer exists.

Time will show that teacher effectiveness will suffer because of the fear of being fired. In turn that will harm students. And parents.

Link to Welch's coming battle:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-06-12/silicon-valley-s-welch-vows-nationwide-fight-on-tenure.html

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Thu Jun 12, 2014, 03:02 PM

96. Someday we will wake up and wonder how we lost our public education system. But by then it will be

too late. Environmentalists used to say what will we tell our children when they ask us why we destroyed their planet. Well now teachers and parents are asking what will we tell our children when they ask us why we destroyed their education. As a parent with a child in college and a child in high school I am truly, truly saddened. This is such a disgrace.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Thu Jun 12, 2014, 03:56 PM

97. K&R--The attack on public education is an attack on democracy

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Thu Jun 12, 2014, 05:14 PM

102. Is our president evil, clueless, or just in it for the money?

With this education policy there is no way to say that he is anything but one or more of the three.

I'm very ashamed of the work I did to elect him. Fooled me real good.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Thu Jun 12, 2014, 05:51 PM

105. I've been retired for a year, and I can't believe how many of my former coworkers are looking into a

career change. The sad thing is that I have no argument to talk them out of it. There is something very wrong with a government who constantly craps all over those who have a passion for teaching.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to charmay (Reply #105)

Thu Jun 12, 2014, 06:07 PM

107. I agree.

Good post. All too true.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Thu Jun 12, 2014, 06:12 PM

109. Madfloridian, they will get it when

it comes to their little town. you see what they are doing in Detroit!!! These rotten Mofos have lost the Federal Money on purpose for head start. Yes I said it. It was on Fucking purpose!!!! They waited until the Deadline date to try and file the paperwork. Who does that?????????????????????????????? http://wchbnewsdetroit.newsone.com/3107294/breaking-news-dps-failure-to-apply-on-time-results-in-cancellation-of-detroit-head-start-in-schools/#.U5hMgVx5Bz0.facebook They have gone crazy. They are cutting off 70,000 residential water service, while big business like Comerica Park, Ford Field, and one of the biggest culprits the State of Michigan itself. For all their state facilities in the city. People don't understand. If you have no working utilities, CPS can take your children. What if you are a renter and your landlord is in default for thousands of dollars because water was included in rent payment. Now you must find a place to live or pay the bill yourself.
Head Start is a basic need for children to learn, socialize, and get them used to being away from mom for extended periods of time. It helps them learn to be independent. Why they are not in the streets is still beyond me!!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to mstinamotorcity2 (Reply #109)

Thu Jun 12, 2014, 06:25 PM

110. Sad. Your gov and ours in FL are virulently anti-public schools and teachers.

I think probably they are two of the worst. What is so sad is that the reformers got people on board by claiming choice...but once the deed is done the only choice is what the charter schools want.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Reply #110)

Thu Jun 12, 2014, 06:35 PM

111. What is so stupid, they hear Republicans

talk stupid about education. They see they call people who can read and write "Elites". The demean anyone who can see through their bullshit. I was in Education transportation and I have seen how they talk about teachers. How did teachers go from being revered by the students they educate to being the boogeyman??? These are some of the same individuals that had the pleasure of a teacher that taught their ass. Now teachers are no good. this isn't about shit but dumbing down the population so they can Privatize education and control what it is they learn. And only those they deem acceptable will be allowed to have knowledge. we see all the ridiculous people they have brainwashed already. right back at you.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Thu Jun 12, 2014, 08:01 PM

114. The ugly fact that school privatizers use THE LANGUAGE OF THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT to persuade...

 

...the masses,
Makes them all the more phony, duplicitous and scummy.


Their rottenness is empirical.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to nikto (Reply #114)

Thu Jun 12, 2014, 08:11 PM

115. Perfect example of Jeb doing that...from 2006

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Reply #115)

Thu Jun 12, 2014, 09:25 PM

116. Thanks!

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink

Reply to this thread