General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsIf old white men feel maligned, they should take their own advice to minorities.
Daily Caller editor Matt Lewis pulled off a rare feat last week with a piece about what he describes as an unfair bias against older white men. In the wake of a major conversation about reparations and a massacre in Isla Vista, Calif., Lewis set himself up to argue that white men have become a group that its socially acceptable to stereotype and criticize en masse.
That is not really what the Atlantics Ta-Nehisi Coates is saying when he outlines the ways in which government entities and private companies made deliberate decisions to keep black communities from accumulating wealth. It is not what my colleague Ann Hornaday means when she turns a gimlet eye on the cultural tropes produced by a movie industry dominated by white men. And it is not actually what Brittney Cooper is arguing for in Salon when she ponders how particular conceptions of gender and race seem to produce a disproportionate number of mass killings in America.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/act-four/wp/2014/06/02/if-old-white-men-feel-maligned-they-should-take-their-own-advice-to-minorities/
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)For everything.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)KarenS
(4,070 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)Hekate
(90,617 posts)As for Manny, he probably gets it but doesn't want it.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)yardwork
(61,588 posts)Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)uponit7771
(90,323 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)I don't think it is. Did you read it?
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)Can he walk a mile in your shoes?
Can he even try to understand?
Can he spell *deliberately obtuse*
So tired of having to hold this remedial class after hours, aren't you?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I think he wanted some attention and he got it and is happy now. We'll see him again and he probably won't read the article next time either.
JustAnotherGen
(31,798 posts)Well he voted for Reagan in 1980 - so I guess he should apologize for voting in the Southern Strategy and ignoring St. Ronnies words in 1976 in Mississippi where you and me (you weren't even born yet ) were painted as welfare queens in Cadillacs takin' sum'thin from some'un!
bravenak
(34,648 posts)We should hold his feet to the fire for answers. I hope he stops by and explains it to us one day.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)perfectly illustrated the OP's point, you've perfectly illuminated your character.
yardwork
(61,588 posts)Just a thought. In my experience, people who have genuine regrets try to do something to make amends.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)Android3.14
(5,402 posts)The KKK became fairly powerful as they set off bombs and burned crosses against the growing ethnic group in Maine, the French Catholics (there were few blacks to suppress in white bread Maine). Eventually things settled down and then, years later, in the 1980s, the KKK had a resurgence as they targeted black immigrants. One of the groups from which members passionately joined the KKK in that second round were the French Catholics.
Be careful lest you become what you hate.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)succinctly put.
Squinch
(50,934 posts)uponit7771
(90,323 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)with that B.S., you are on the same page as Matt K. Lewis of The Daily Caller ... the guy that was honor by the American Conservative Union as CPAC "Blogger of the Year."
Are you comfortable in that space? {Rhetorical Question}
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)When one poses as something they're not, the mask occasionally slips.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)based on his fan club Rec count ... He's pretty comfort here on DU, as well.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)is made up of useful idiots who actually believe he's a liberal.
But of course there are some who know the truth, but continue to play along anyways.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Useful idiots, i.e., left leaning folks that hate President Obama and unwilling to admit why ... so "it's his policies", just like manny says; but can't/won't ask themselves why Bernie and Elizabeth, who consistently support and vote for those same policies, are untainted, per manny.
I guess if I were a similarly conflicted liberal, I wouldn't question it, either ... it might lead me to answers that I do not answered.
Laelth
(32,017 posts)Ugly attack here on Manny, a fellow Duer, as well as those who agree with Manny. Pretty much all this poster ever does is attack other DUers. It got old a long time ago.
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Mon Jun 9, 2014, 06:59 AM, and the Jury voted 3-4 to LEAVE IT.
Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Manny gets old too
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: I think Manny IS a liberal. I suppose that makes me a member of the "useful idiot" club, and, in that sense, this post is a direct attack upon me, but I voted to hide this post because it accuses Manny of being a troll, quite directly, and that's unacceptable behavior on DU.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Obvious personal attack is obvious.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: On a progressive website, I would think that there would be an understanding of where our socio-political problems stem from. Maybe it would be easier if they heard it from Michael Moore?
Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.
-Laelth
Number23
(24,544 posts)Hope you like roast!
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)Looks delicious...
Laelth
(32,017 posts)Nice allusion.
-Laelth
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)I suppose it's easy to confuse "the point" with "for everything."
Easy mistake to make when the sound of "whoosh" prevents us from a rational interpretation.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Love this, too:
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Then i just looked around and this one spoke to me. Hopefully people will read it and take it to heart.
brer cat
(24,544 posts)but your voice and POV is important. Your life experiences are different from mine as well as other DUers, and we can learn much from hearing you. We don't learn much if we are in an echo chamber or if we fail to take the time to relate to people who express a different POV.
btw, this old white lady feels the same as you about the old white men who run too many things. It has been true all my life...it needs to end during yours. I am not advocating killing them off or grave dancing as the older folks die, just expressing the desire to see women and minorities take their place running things.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I just want them to learn to share and that their needs are not the only ones we should focus on. Everyone else has gotten left behind. And now that they feel the pinch they want to concentrate solely on class issues, but i say we need to do the race stuff at the same time. Not just scream race card whenever issues are brought up.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)People are using excuses to avoid subjects that make them uncomfortable.
I don't recall too many liberal white guys bellyaching about this:
freshwest
(53,661 posts)He wasn't talking about heavy people. And Moore is well known as a heavy person, too:
Both books are really about heartlessness, not heavy-ness, white-ness, or male-ness. And they were written by white men calling out their alleged kin.
Haven't writers such as Moore used the same designation and not been accused of racism or sexism but been acclaimed as speaking truth to power and calling out conservatives?
Why is it so uncomfortable to listen to others who are not white males, who want to join into the same conversation on reactionaries?
Why are they not respected as allies, as they seek to express their oppression, to teach those who say they're against oppression?
Some seek to find an offense any criticism of what they consider their exterior qualities, when it's not about that at all. It's like identifying with a team. Just as I am of a certain physical type in race and gender, but not heart and mindset to this person:
There are critical differences between this person and myself, though some would say she might be my 'kin.' I barely regard her as a member of homo sapiens in good standing, we're so far apart:
First, I wouldn't dress with a cheesy patriotic fabric. Teabaggers think they're making a political statement and looking patriotic. Bullshit, there's nothing patriotic about hate.So I'm not offended. Why should others be?
Second, I never, make such a hateful, hostile face, particularly with that open mouthed yelling. Just imagine the coarseness you'd expect to issue out of that mouth. Hate is not interesting, nor is any help, and that is a hate group.
Third, I can spell and don't wave around signs. Might as well have a Fox News icon tatooed on their foreheads. They hav no original thoughts, just stupid, repeated slogans.
Fourth, I am aware of the issue of making all people talk and act and look the same, and don't approve. We don't have a national language because it isn't needed. The language of most of business, science and other enterprises at this time on Planet Earth is English. It's not endangered. Quit the hysteria.
Fifth, I have better uses of my time than to prate about things that mean nothing. These are simply th arguments of egotism. The baggers have the luxury of first amendent rights and the right to protest in public but this is what they do with their rights, hate on others instead of anything positive.
I'm also older than some who post here. I feel more fortunate than the current generation, having lived through the sixties and seventies and seeing and hearing JFK, MLK, RFK and others as they changed the world for me and others. I lived in a time of brave and noble people, not the grifters I see today running amuck and trying to destroy the lives of so many who never did them any harm.
I grew up in a time when unions and workers and doing the right thing by others in general but certainly not all was a given, not subjct to debate, nor was protecting the environment or personal freedoms an issue.
It was the right thing to do. A lot was done in that era, that's since been lost in a tsunami of right wing propaganda working to erase every good idea ever fought and died for to create peace within us.
Those ideals are the shared legacy of my generation of Democrats, not other parties. I'm here to remind those who have not lived in those days, there's a better way to live than what Reagan era spin tells us there is, better than the reality the Koch's are determined to force on us and the generations to come.
So I am and have been blessed, despite hardships and things I do not bring here, never internalizing criticisms of the worst of all, as some do. I don't understand why they would identify with the worst human specimens, because that's who is being called out, and not them, and if they valued what is right, there'd be no fighting.
JMHO.
Squinch
(50,934 posts)why insist on wearing it?" and then just refuse to repeat all the assurances we have been giving for eleventy seven threads to those who demand apologies and retractions because it doesn't apply to them?
PLEEEEEEEEZZZZZEEEE?????
freshwest
(53,661 posts)The physical nature of a person does not define all the qualities of that person.
Although some have believed political views are inherited. The Third Reich did.
Don't waste time with those who believe 'biology is destiny.' That's authoritarian.
Just sayin'
Number23
(24,544 posts)Loved every word.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)JustAnotherGen
(31,798 posts)Knock it out of the ballpark!
freshwest
(53,661 posts)Number23
(24,544 posts)there was an unfair bias against everyone except older white men - that's how they accumulated the privileges they now own.
belly aching white folk need to just stfu about how hard done by they are. Paint up brown or black and live like a non-white person for a month or so then report back.
mackerel
(4,412 posts)noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)That sentence speaks volumes.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)I forgot to add women.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)in this world to that of a woman of color being doubly oppressed. I stand with you Bravenak! Old White men are whiners!
Never back down....just fight on!
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I'm oppressing the whole thing now, so i demand that all men on DU send me money now, so that i may buy tools of oppression.
Imaging having to read posts that make you uncomfortable? It must hurt so much to hear an honest opinion about a group you identify with when you are the group in power. I bet some felt like they were lumped in with people who are despicable.
I feel like that everyday. All day. In Walmart. At the mall. At work. In the car. Listening to talk radio. And even reading certain things here about black men leaving their families and the women not knowing how to use birth control and having too many babies. And the Trayvon threads. And Jordan.
And the dudes who like to whip out black on white crime stats out of nowhere.
Skidmore
(37,364 posts)you troublemaker, you. Keep agitating! And I'll join you. The level of pushback needed is depressing sometimes.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I know i have explained my pov to certain people many many times. Then they act brand new the next day. Deliberately obtuse some might say.
Skidmore
(37,364 posts)One group really is wilfully ignorant and does not take any information in which does not fit into their own worldview. The other group is made up of people who manipulate information and feedback given them to support an established agenda on their part. Neither one of these groups are interested in discourse or entertaining other points of view. It becomes really frustrating when you consider how hard some of the elements of our political system have worked to shut it all down by making this sort of thing systemic.
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)abelenkpe
(9,933 posts)The Magistrate
(95,244 posts)Armstead
(47,803 posts)Our exchange yesterday was not about whether or not it is "legitimate" to bring up the subject of race, etc.
It was the dismissiveness of an entire demographic group (and the tendency of some to assume that criticisms of President Obama always have a racial undercurrent). This approach is a mirror image of what the GOP does in reverse. Divide and conqueror.
If one is trying to change social attitudes and oppressive social systems, it is important to first recognize that demographic groups are not monolithic. Society is a collection of individuals, who have a wide range of attitudes, levels of awareness and motivations. That also applies to demographic groups whose collective actions and attitudes one might collectively consider to be victimizers as well as those who have suffered because of that.
President Obama himself recognizes these complexities, and has addressed it, such as in his great speech during the campaign when he was attacked for his affiliations with Rev. Wright.
Any effort to change oppressive attitudes, behavior and policies -- and the systems that result -- has to accept people on their own terms as a starting point. Being accusatory and/or telling people they have to instantly transform themselves to fall into a certain mold of thought and behavior only alienates people, including those who are inherently sympathetic. It is no different than white people telling black people that they have to become white to raise themselves up.
And, in a larger sense, it requires a recognition that to lift everyone up requires lifting everyone up, and focusing on the systemic institutional problems and economic systems that are much larger and oppressive to the majority, regardless of color, ethnic background and gender.
For example, in the 18th to mid-20th Century, Britain was a colonial empire that subjugated, exploited and did some awful things to the "colonies" they acquired and ruled over.
It's fair to say, that the British Empire did a lot of damage and colonialism was a fundamentally bad system. However, it would be wrongheaded to say that the British people were by extension, all guilty of being members of a Colonial Empire and were terrible exploiters individually
In fact, many British citizens were exploited and abused themselves (read Charles Dickens)....Or were at least not part off the problem and included people who supported reforms to the system (Or would have if they had the knowledge of the realities of colonialism, and access to a larger reform movement).
Therefore it is a totally inaccurate generalization to say that if a person was British automatically meant they were part of the system of exploitation and abuse, and was therefore guilty of the evils inflicted by the British Empire. In fact, it was a larger system that was put into place and run by a particular segment of the population of Britain.
It is not much different than using a broad brush to portray everyone who is white, and especially of a certain age group, as being the cause of current problems.
It is a complex issue with a lot of nuances. There were (and are) people who had (have) widely differing shades of opinion and levels of knowledge about the realities of the system, which also shapes their role and opinion of it. There were people in Britain who had a sense of patriotism and pride in the Empire, for example, who did not necessarily know about the actual facts of what that really meant.
There are hard-nosed racists and sexists. There are also well meaning people who may behave or think in ways that are racist or sexist, but not because of bad intent. It is more a matter of lack of knowledge and awareness.
Telling people that progress will only be made when their demographic group becomes insignificant and/or dies off is not the way to gain their support for solving and rectifying legitimate grievances.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I have no filter. I think it may be a good thing.
randys1
(16,286 posts)fairly...
And when a Black woman like you speaks up, for example, it frightens them because to compete on an actual level playing field is something they have never been required to do before.
The day you stop talking about this is the day I give up, for real.
[link:
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I pick thing up pretty fast and i am awesome. I am getting the tone argument quite a bit.
awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)Yes, you are.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I will keep letting everyone know.
FreedRadical
(518 posts)You remind me of my mother. Rest her soul. You two are utterly fearless, powerful and relentless. I made the mistake of pissing her off once or twice. BIG mistake. I hope I don't make that mistake with you.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)But i'll remember forever.
Thank you for that. That was a sweet thing to say .
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)randys1
(16,286 posts)redqueen
(115,103 posts)betsuni
(25,446 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)You should do it if you mean me.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)I don't fight it useful to talk trash about different demographic groups.
"I have a friend who told me the problem with young black guys is..."
randys1
(16,286 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)randys1
(16,286 posts)We need time. We have already won.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)You have no content, only attitude. Sneering disdain for anyone who doesn't take your ultra positions. Good luck with that.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)okay. I think that content is readily apparent. No disdain. No 'ultra position". Just truth you can't handle. Simple as that. Always about "attitude" because it's not deferential enough and can't be controlled. Dealt with that word my whole life and thank god I had "attitude". Controlling truthful, uncomfortable dialog doesn't work anymore, anyplace, anytime. Never again!
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)An opinion I disagree with does not equal "truth you can't handle."
The rest is blather.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)No, this whole thread.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)In which case, I'd be inclined to think that he knows what he's talking about.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)If I remove my filters I'd say we are all assholes for willingly destroying the earth willingly by cars. And everyone who drives is an asshole because they know that.
I'm an asshole every time I get in my car and turn the key because I know that I am sending out a cloud of noxious gas that will help to destroy the planet and make it inhospitable for human habitation in the very near future.
But calling people assholes is not going to convince them to support policies and behavior to reduce (and hopefully repair) the damage we are collectively causing to the planet.
Rather, changing society so that we are not destroying the planet it requires taking people on their own terms and raising awareness of the problem, and encouraging them to both be more conservation-oriented in their behavior, and looking for ways we can all minimize our individual damage while dealing with the requirements of living in society, and also convincing more people to support policies tat collectively encourage alternative policies and systems.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)We are doing it willfully. We are assholes. We know it. We want people to sugar coat it for us so that we don't feel bad. Once the oil runs out we will have no choice but to find other methods of fueling our lives. If people want to pretend that drill baby drill is going to last forever, that's sad that they do not believe in science.
I also do not sugar coat things for my husband and family, myself or anybody really. Does no good and makes it seem like we can push it off forever.
I never called anybody an asshole, just spoke on age and demographics and how they vote. Then the large swarm. I apologized for hurting her and she responded by posting an anti Bravenak thread and posting all through it were people calling me racist, ageist and viciously attacking me. For a post i apologized for and the jury refused to hide. Message after message attacking me and calling me names. And i'm the oppressor? The villain? I was trying to explain my meaning. This article says what i was trying to say better.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Therefore your words were twisted, your meaning changed, and the pile on crew went apeshit. 260 recs for that huge fucking self-pitying strawman of an OP.
And now you're being treated to another lecture on how to be nicer.
I swear to Goddess the shit that happens on this liberal, progressive site.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)So many people to offend, so little time. Nobody cares when i get called names but if i say old white men + a negative, all hell breaks loose.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)And yeah, the tone argument is so over. Nobody but those making them thinks they hold even a molecule of water. Everyone else just rolls their eyes and keeps moving forward.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)Armstead
(47,803 posts)I've been accused of wanting pomies" and bein an "unrealistic leftist" and a lot of otehr things for some of the things I post regarding the corporate state and the concentration of wealth and power.
And I've certainly not always practiced what I am preaching all the time. I can be strident at times when people react in ways that seem like baseless attacks. (When people disagree in civil ways I do respond civilly.)
So I can understand your response. But just because I sometimes live in a glass house doesnlt mean my points weren't valid.
For example the poster who got so upset yesterday is a very stalwart, very progressive long time member of DU. And being told that the entire demographic she belongs to (apart from gender) makes her part of the problem is understandable. It's the way I felt.
That's a problem with generalizations that dismiss whole groups, regardless of the political perspective or goal.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)No matter how many times i say it, nor the fact that I apologized and received a bash me thread in response that i rec'd, i am still getting the lecture. The post went to jury and it stood. It was not a controversial post.
Someone posted this:http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4953402
Where was the out cry by the same posters who hate generalities? You guys did not show up to help me and i was hurt very bad reading that. I guess the groups attacked in that post in the link do nit merit the sane amount of support. I am sad that it is that way. You guys should have stepped up to the plate and defended me.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)" I have read too many times here that we need to try to reach out to... Drumroll please...... WHITE MEN! Not our base, and our voters, but we need to reach out to old white males and not say stuff that might make them anxious. Why? Because the board is full of them and some of them think that the nation is not paying attention to their problems."
I am sorry if you feel that me and others overreacted to that. Personally, I reacted because I have a fundamental disagreement with it for a variety of reasons. It gets very,very complicated and the weather is too sunny outside today for me to go into all of it now.
I will just say that as a White Man, I reacted strongly because it hit a fundamental chord that goes back through my years of experience as a progressive/liberal since the 70's. I believe that statement is both tactically wrong, does not represent history and I found it personally insulting to hear white men are irrelevant to efforts to revitalize the Democratic Party as a politically effective force to represent the poor, working and middle class of all gender and races -- i.e. the majority of the population.
It also runs contrary to a fundamental belief -- that I have professionally worked on with reasonable success in my own tiny little sphere -- that the best way to foster positive change is to accept all people on their terms as a starting point, rather than putting them on the defensive about where tey are in life at the time. It also requires addressing the reasons people develop stereotypes or fallacious briefs.
As for the post you cited from another thread....Well, I happened to just hear a debate a little while ago on MSNBC (Melissa Harris Perry) in which President Obama was being criticized for saying some things tat were some what similar to that post.
As I said it all gets very complicated.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)Not unless we act like we're the only people who matter, and everyone should cater to our perspective 24/7. Those are the white men we don't need, and who will only hold us back.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)after reading that link. Man I was bowled over by the so-called progressives. Damn! And they want you to feel bad? I'm always amazed at hypocrisy run rampant. Damn!!! I am so sorry I missed that post and didn't have your back.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)"Hypocrisy run rampant" is a good way to put it.
Not to mention I got my first-ever hidden post when I responded angrily to his bullshit. Meanwhile said bullshit is still up there for all to see.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)i've grown to expect it and am surprised no more at the...............pick your words. There are a lot of them to explain such actions.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)If it pisses them off directed at them they should be especially vigilant about it coming from their demographic instead of trying to nanny me. I love this hipocrisy on parade.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)You said something I responded to viscerally, whether intended to me or not. Also I strongly disagreed with your premise.
Emotions got overheated, making calm discussion about it difficult.
We're ultimately on the same side, even if we don't see eye to eye on this point. So let's just agree to disagree on that and move on.
As for the other post you referred to. I'm not on DU 24/7. I check in and out irregularly, and only read a fraction of the threads....and of those I only comment on a tiny fraction of the posts.
And frankly, I think it goes with the DU (and Internet) territory that whatever one posts has a chance of eliciting responses that are negative or that cause offense to someone or another....... Heck, I've often found that even when I post something here I think is totally innocuous and inoffensive -- including non-political tidbits -- it will generate that.
JustAnotherGen
(31,798 posts)So we can see precisely what the issue is and why you are linking to it.
224. To be blunt prvilege has nothing to do with the fact
that single mothers are on the rise in our country and children simply don't have two parents to help raise them. Also a single mother must work more hours to raise children compared to a household that has two incomes to pull from. The government is tight on money and more and more men (especially black men) are incarcerated for not paying child support whether they are they father or not (biological). Straight Black males have walked away from father hood because there are no role models to look to for inspiration anymore and the entertainment media portrays them as fools. Bill Cosby I rarely agree with but he has talked about how there have always been strong black role models to look to but instead of focusing on black achievement the focus has shifted now.
The black community has the same issues as the LDC of the world in that that birth control education is lacking and that having a lot of kids reduces your spending power simply put. This cycle is difficult to break but it starts at the school level or more specifically public education levels.
We should start a lesbian black commune to fix this problem for that poster. But then we will get accused of discriminating against older white men for not letting them join. Smack my ass and call me sally - this shit was for real!
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Why does that sound so pleasant and i'm not even lesbian. I am kinda ready to move there if it has a beach and a mall. And alcohol. But i need my white ladies and asian ladies and more. Maybe a rainbow lesbian commune with free margaritas and vollyball. Misandrists get in free.
JustAnotherGen
(31,798 posts)And yep - no charge for misandrists! And we shall start each day with bellinis or kir royales! Cheers!
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Girl party!
heaven05
(18,124 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)heaven05
(18,124 posts)nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)That is false, and a strawman. Not every white person is a "problem" - only the ignorant and bigoted and clueless.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)"For example the poster who got so upset yesterday is a very stalwart, very progressive long time member of DU. And being told that the entire age demographic she belongs to (apart from gender) makes her part of the problem is understandable. It's the way I felt."
It should have read:
"For example the poster who got so upset yesterday is a very stalwart, very progressive long time member of DU. And HER UPSET REACTION TO THE IMPLICATION that the entire age demographic she belongs to makes her part of the problem is understandable. It's the way I felt."
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)My own parents are nearly 60, and very progressive, conscientious people.
But there are also those - yes, even on DU - who use the "tone argument" as an excuse to shut down discussion of uncomfortable topics.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)It explains my on views more fully from the perspective of a 62 year old "old fart" progressive.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)and no apology is needed ever for the truth about a certain demographic that is now whining because people are on to them and their world destroying shenanigans. Those on here attacking you cannot take the heat of the pure light of truth. Keep up the good fight.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I believe what i wrote with all of my heart.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)because they were/are the presented truth that is hard to take by some. Stand tall.
Number23
(24,544 posts)noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)JustAnotherGen
(31,798 posts)Maybe we need an op stating that?
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)Because there is nothing racist about pointing that out...at all...not even remotely.
JustAnotherGen
(31,798 posts)Point out the GOP IS indeed those things in the title.
Of course - that could be a really interesting 'thread' to see some additional 'layers' to folks around here.
Be interesting to see how we CAN'T point it out eveeeeeeeeeeeeer because one of them over there might be offended.
Alas - I'm anxiously awaiting this!
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)redqueen
(115,103 posts)others criticized the empire WERE part of the problem.
Those that recognized their country's awful practices, and didn't whine about being smeared when people talked about how awful the british empire is, are part of the solution.
And being nice and polite and genteel when criticizing the british empire is a red herring.
I think this needs to be posted again:
Armstead
(47,803 posts)Telling someone who who was just barely eking by in Britain that they were automatically colonialist pigs because they were British would not have been the way to start to encourage them to support change to the colonial system.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Nobody told anyone on here that they were anything. They read a criticism of conservative old white men, and somehow managed to miss the copious amounts of context which signaled that it was not about them.
The analogous situation would be if someone wrote that the british were no longer going to be an empire in the future and would have to compete with other nations on a more even footing, and some peasant getting all upset because someone said they were a bad person.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)telling the peasant that s/he is inherently bad because they part of a society that is awful and by extension they are bad people unless they totally reject their entire lives instantly (and most likely either get kicked off their land to starve to death or possibly just getting directly killed or tossed into prison)
redqueen
(115,103 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)" I have read too many times here that we need to try to reach out to... Drumroll please...... WHITE MEN! Not our base, and our voters, but we need to reach out to old white males and not say stuff that might make them anxious. Why? Because the board is full of them and some of them think that the nation is not paying attention to their problems."
bravenak
(34,648 posts)And exactly that reason was given.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)That did not happen here.
That a few people are choosing to try to make her comment all about them is the problem.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)staunch and loyal Democrats, liberal and progressive and have been for decades.
The statement that older while males are politically irrelevant is personal. Just as personal as if I said that women, yong peope or any otehr group are irrelevant.
It's a mirror image of the GOP saying that women, non-WASP ethnic groups and gays are irrelevant.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)It is so far from a mirror image. That is false equivalence at its finest.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)Michael Moore says a lot of things i totally aree with, and i think would resonate with a lot of white men, if it weren't packaged that way.
He's an entertainer, so being shocking is part of his schtick.
But he isn't nearly as effective in affecting the actual machinations of public opinion and politics as he could be. All he really does is massage the people who already agree with him.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)She didn't make it the title of a book.
Her post was aimed at people who (we would think) agree with her about the stupid, selfish, greedy old white men who are holding back progress.
Why then this rush to take her words as a personal insult? HERE?
HMM?
Armstead
(47,803 posts)I guess because as an older white male I am automatically greedy and a victimizer.
You're correct, I give up. We're all useless, irrelevant and inherently piggy. Not entitled to have an alternative opinion.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Did you really miss the point of my post - which is that the reason white liberal men didn't whine and cry about the title of his book is because they understood the context?
And that it is worth thinking about why this context is being ignored in bravenak's post?
Armstead
(47,803 posts)I disagree with the point in the excerpt I originally quoted that started this all is that white males -- especially older white males -- should not be considered in efforts to revitalize the Democratic Party and bring about positive social change -- including on matters of racial justice and gender equality.
Things got too personal and emotional from there. As in many situations there's a lot of room for differences of opinion and nuanced consideration, but not when personality and emotions get involved.
That's it for now. I'm going outside.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)I don't know how many times "it's not about you" has to be repeated before it sinks in.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)We all have to work within the circumstances we've been given. Anything else is unrealistic.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)To be perectly honest, it is not a matter of making people with grievances "less irritating to the powerful."
It is a matter of getting average people who may be inadvertently supporting oppression to recognize the falicacy of their stereotypes, and to recognize the common humanity of people.
Yes, it does require a certain amount of shit stirring. But i also should be seen as a process.
IMO, gay-rights activists have made a positive difference. But what really made the difference has been getting previously homophobic people to recognize that the gay couple down the street were not a different exotic species, and are deserving of the same rights that straight people have, and the same "live and let live" tolerance they expect for themselves.
pennylane100
(3,425 posts)While it is amazing just how much of the world was colonized during the life of the Empire, there can be no polite way to criticize the harm that we (the British) caused to the countries we occupied.
The crimes our country committed during these years are part of our history and smearing our behavior during this period is legitimate. It is important to remember our history so we can learn from it.
enlightenment
(8,830 posts)Nicely explained. Thank you for taking the time to post.
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)Why do we have to tiptoe around that fact?
Armstead
(47,803 posts)noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)I am surprised that you cannot face it.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)But you are making a generalization that is the same as the GOP saying "We don't need any minorities."
Both are formulas for political extinction.
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)I am stating the fact that GOP voters are mostly white and male. That is all. I am really not understanding why that is in contention.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)What seems to be in contention is whether or not whites and males should be written off by the Democratic Party.
I dont think they should be written off. My opinion. Your mileage may vary.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Armstead
(47,803 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)after generations of this group asking everyone else to play second fiddle. It's time to get over it and treat others as equally important, and not expect them to tip toe around with their concerns, waiting for some cue that is is their turn.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)If you believe this is about not treating others as equally important, you have no clue what I believe, which is that EVERYBODY should have the right to have a decent life, equal opportunity, the ability to be treated as individuals (not as part of some bigoted or sexist stereotype) and that we should not be ruled by an economic elite.
Everyone -- including thee and me -- has personal priorities. That's called human nature. You can feel free to believe that any part of that agenda is some "white male" wish list -- and I am free to tell you that you're wrong if you believe that has anything to do with perpetuating white male entitlement.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Never said it was about you- we are talking about white men who shoo away others concerns. Expect that they should be catered to, first and foremost. Only if the shoe fits, should you be getting all emotional like that about this topic.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)hard not to take that personally with that little "you" in there
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)It's time to get over it (that feeling of entitlement) and treat others (particularly women and POC) as equally important".
Left out "this group" and all context. I added some clarification above. Hope that helps.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)betsuni
(25,446 posts)I feel like I've been eavesdropping on a group therapy session but the denial is too strong and that breakthrough isn't going to happen. You all should be charging by the hour!
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)You could not have put this any more plainly, yet some will still misconstrue your message.
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)Stating a fact is not 'writing off' anyone. It is just the reality. I really do not understand the opposition to this reality , especially not from such smart people.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)A very simple fix
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)No we do not. There is a rich tradition of liberalism in this country. We should already know who we are, and be able to talk about reality without having to qualify everything. I see you as an ally, and I still know that GOP voters are mostly white and male. Really quite simple.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)It has always been the distraction used by those receiving a truth that is uncomfortable, to whine about how that truth is presented and that that truth may be taken as offensive therefore whining is justified. No matter the offense the oppressed may be responding to. While the demographic described is still in a position to ignore the truth of their privilege and racism, which they typically do, they always tell the oppressed group, go back rewrite and present it again and I might just read it. No change, just read. Usually it's something like, "you can't call a asshole an asshole even if the asshole is an asshole because you might offend them and they won't want to change. So change the wording so I don't feel the hate. BS, the whiner never has changed the wording and/or meaning while denigrating minorities and women. Wouldn't have changed anyway. The old/middle white male demographic has had generations to change and accept everyone as an equal. THEY HAVE NOT WANTED EQUALITY and a lot still don't. As evidenced by old and middle demographic examples now running rampant in the halls of Congress, on the Supreme Court and definitely in state and local politics. Turning back voting rights that for the most part will affect minorities, turning back civil rights, same effect, "post racial society" according to one of those old white men on the SCOTUS who is in the majority is now the order of the day. BS!!!!!! Gender rights under a most vicious attack not seen since ROEvsWADE. An asshole is an asshole. Unless they want to change and do change they are an asshole..... You talk about broad brushes, just go to Discussionist.com, you'll find a lot of broad brush from the group under discussion and that are the reason for this OP. All gays, all blacks, all minorities, all women are broad stroked by the rampant racism, bigotry and misogyny that is still very evident and perpetrated by old, middle and young white males in this american society of 2014. Sometime I think the only solution will be the dying off of a certain breed of human being that finds it impossible to live in peace and equality with their neighbor no matter the superficial differences.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)Good luck with that in terms of actually changing anything
the people I am "broad stroking" don't want any damn change. And have been the same damn way for generations. Please! Don't try to insult me with an insulting answer. You're right about that luck thing! Change hasn't happened significantly for 300+ years in this country alone because of ............. good luck to you.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)and no white males ever support social progress or ever vote for Democrats. The Labor Union movement never existed. No white males supported the civil rights movement. LBJ and FDR were not older white males. Bernie Sanders is really an African American woman in disguise. Sarah Palin, and all the women who love her and go to Tea Party Rallies and people like Michelle Malkin and Laura Ingam are are secretly male cross dressers.
Yuppers. Okay. Yes good luck with that belief.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)or suggested anything as you say. There is a huge demographic out there in la la land that is hateful and racist for one reason only. They hate people because of the melanin in their skin. And they are NOT going to change and they will be called out for what they are each and every time they rear their racist, hateful, bigoted heads and utter vile despicable things. People like Ryan, Issa, Cruz, Limbaugh, West, yes west, Clarence, yes clarence, beckerhead, handmedown, wordsalad palin. People who kill kids with skittles and tea in their hands. Whether it's cultural, which it is, whether it's religious, which is a large part of the reason for racial hate, gender and sexual orientation attacks of violence, I can't break down those numbers because they're not out there. Certain segment wouldn't want that broadcast, I'm sure. Why I have friend who sat with Bill Ayres and Bernadine Dohrn just a week or so ago. They are not part of what I'm talking about or referring to. There are GOOD people of many racial and ethnic persuasions out there and I don't think the writer of the original OP and neither do I, deny that fact and NEVER said there wasn't. The point being made by me, is about the whiner screaming of being a victim when they victimize others everyday by virtue of the privilege they gain by being a certain demographic segment of our society...... You forgot anne coulter. have a good one.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)thought better of mentioning her in that context.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)I still don't like her.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)This is really the crux of it, right here. The subset of white, mostly male Americans who don't believe others deserve even the most basic human rights or considerations.
Frankly, I can understand why one would be offended at being lumped in with that group. But that's not what's happening here - if anything, it's a matter of certain DU'ers (perhaps unwittingly) identifying with people they should be running away from as fast as possible.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)One of the things I most like about President Obama his recognition of that.
I know older white conservatives (and younger ones too) who are thoroughly decent people. They grew up in different times and different circumstances, and were shaped by that and/or they are uninformed or swallowed a bunch of crap from the right wing and corporate propaganda machine that unfortunately took hold. But they try to do what they think is right in their daily lives, and many believe that conservatism will "lift all boats."
Most people have a lot of internal contradictions. My late mother thought of herself as a staunch liberal and Democrat. She thought Obama was the greatest thing since sliced toast and unabashedly supported him during the 08 primaies and election. (Unfortunately she passed away before the inauguration.) ....But she was also a product of growing up in the south, and she had a blind spot about immigration, which she thought was eroding American society with foreign influences.
I also know a woman who was a staunch liberal and extremely progressive on women's issues. But as soon as her daughter didn't get into a certain school, she got pissed off about affirmative action because she though it was unfair that her daughter couldn't get into a school, while in her view less academically accomplished people of color did.
Nobody (at least hardly anybody) is all good or all bad. Most of us are a mix of conflicting motivations and views, and we're all shaped by individual circumstances and experiences.
Any effort to move (or nudge) society in a better direction has to start from a recognition of that fact.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)But when I see the vile racist comments posted on blogs and articles - all manner of vicious racial slurs, gloating over the violent deaths of people of color, saying a murdered unarmed teenager got what he deserved for being a "thug" - it's hard to think that these individuals are in any way redeemable.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)As I said originally, it's a complex subject.
Some people are just a'holes regardless of their political beliefs. Some people are a'holes in one aspect of their life, and great people in another.
That's just human nature. Was ever thus and, unfortunately will probably always be.
Demo_Chris
(6,234 posts)Mojorabbit
(16,020 posts)zeemike
(18,998 posts)There is no better way to divide people than pointing out their differences.
Today it might be old white men, tomorrow the Millennials and emoprogs...but it is always about why we should hate or fear them as a class or group.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)Virtually everyone recognizes this already. But as I've said before on here, adding "some" as a prefix ("some men," "some white people," etc.) presents the problem in such a way that one may be inclined to absolve themselves of responsibility, i.e. "not my problem." When in reality, trying to make the world a less shitty place is the responsibility of all of us.
PowerToThePeople
(9,610 posts)It is an easy tool to use and gives results that are easy to see.
If young (old) black (white) women (men) feel maligned, they should take their own advice to white men (minorities)
Daily Caller editor Matt Lewis pulled off a rare feat last week with a piece about what he describes as an unfair bias against younger (older) black (white) women (men). In the wake of a major conversation about reparations and a massacre in Isla Vista, Calif., Lewis set himself up to argue that black (white) women (men) have become a group that its socially acceptable to stereotype and criticize en masse.
That is not really what the Atlantics Ta-Nehisi Coates is saying when he outlines the ways in which government entities and private companies made deliberate decisions to keep white (black) communities from accumulating wealth. It is not what my colleague Ann Hornaday means when she turns a gimlet eye on the cultural tropes produced by a movie industry dominated by black (white) women (men). And it is not actually what Brittney Cooper is arguing for in Salon when she ponders how particular conceptions of gender and race seem to produce a disproportionate number of mass killings in America.
But by suggesting that is the case, Lewis seems to have done a pretty effective job of inducing other people to work themselves up into a lather. No one should have to feel this way about who they are, he laments. Not even historically under(privileged) black (white) females (males). Lewis is a cordial correspondent of mine, so I will give him credit for pulling off an intentional act of provocation, rather than tilting at windmills.
In the spirit of Lewiss piece, I would like to offer him some advice. If younger (older) black (white) women (men) feel maligned, they might try taking some of the recommendations that they routinely offer to Caucasians (people of color) and men (women) who want to better their lot. These suggestions are often presented as radically simple solutions to centuries of structural inequality. In reality, they function mostly as an attempt to make people with legitimate grievances less irritating to the powerful figures who might be expected to respond to their demands.
Cont at link...
Would you alert this?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I do the same thing when posters write things like this:
The government is tight on money and more and more men (especially black men) are incarcerated for not paying child support whether they are they father or not (biological). Straight Black males have walked away from father hood because there are no role models to look to for inspiration anymore and the entertainment media portrays them as fools. Bill Cosby I rarely agree with but he has talked about how there have always been strong black role models to look to but instead of focusing on black achievement the focus has shifted now.
The black community has the same issues as the LDC of the world in that that birth control education is lacking and that having a lot of kids reduces your spending power simply put. This cycle is difficult to break but it starts at the school level or more specifically public education levels.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4953402
TO THE JURY :THIS IS A QUOTE FROM A POST THAT I ALERTED ON AND THE JURY LET IT STAND
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Alert it if you must.
PowerToThePeople
(9,610 posts)The way I see it, AA do not like to be all grouped as thugs and gang bangers, and they do not deserve it. Hispanics do not like to all be grouped as border jumpers and illegal aliens. In the same light, white men do not like to all be grouped as bigots and barriers to progress. It seems simple to me. Maybe it is not.
About 100 or so days ago, I had 4 posts hidden within 10 minutes. I was ticked off because there had been a number of cop killings in the news. I broad brushed all cops in the same light. Said the exact same statement 4 times in four threads. All my posts got alerted and hidden. Not because I attacked any one individual or DUer (because I did not), but because I lumped the whole group "COPS" into the same negative light. In hindsight, it was wrong for me to do that, though at the time I felt very justified in my statement.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Also a single mother must work more hours to raise children compared to a household that has two incomes to pull from. The government is tight on money and more and more men (especially black men) are incarcerated for not paying child support whether they are they father or not (biological). Straight Black males have walked away from father hood because there are no role models to look to for inspiration anymore and the entertainment media portrays them as fools. Bill Cosby I rarely agree with but he has talked about how there have always been strong black role models to look to but instead of focusing on black achievement the focus has shifted now.
The black community has the same issues as the LDC of the world in that that birth control education is lacking and that having a lot of kids reduces your spending power simply put. This cycle is difficult to break but it starts at the school level or more specifically public education levels.
Where were you to defend me from this?
PowerToThePeople
(9,610 posts)I support and vote for politicians who support a strong safety net. Ideally, I would like to see a socialist system in place where every citizen has enough resources to support the standard of living that our GDP can support. That is a tough fight though. I support better education and fully support Planned Parenthood and other similar organizations.
I am a single father of a young child and do not receive any support from the child's mother. I can relate to and appreciate what you must be going through on a daily basis.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)And it was saying that BLACK fathers leave their families. Do search and replace on that one for me please?
PowerToThePeople
(9,610 posts)Ask for help in regard to a bullcrap post? I took you at your word and thought it was an honest request, sorry.
Maybe text only format does not do this discussion justice.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I want you to see it from the perspective you looked at the old white men post and wanted to see if you could see the racism in a post directed to a class of people you do not belong to. You did not see it. There fore i wanted you to replace the words black men with the words white men and see if you then saw the racism. It is not called baiting you. It is called putting you in my shoes.
I'll do it manually for you.
(that single mothers are on the rise in our country and children simply don't have two parents to help raise them. Also a white single mother must work more hours to raise children compared to a household that has two incomes to pull from. The government is tight on money and more and more men (especially white men) are incarcerated for not paying child support whether they are they father or not (biological). Straight White males have walked away from father hood because there are no role models to look to for inspiration anymore and the entertainment media portrays them as fools. Bill O'Reilly and I rarely agree with but he has talked about how there have always been strong white role models to look to but instead of focusing on white achievement the focus has shifted now.
The white community has the same issues as the LDC of the world in that that birth control education is lacking and that having a lot of kids reduces your spending power simply put. This cycle is difficult to break but it starts at the school level or more specifically public education levels. )
TO THE JURY. I DID A REPLACE OF THE WORDS BLACK TO WHITE TO DEMONSTRATE THE RACISM OF THE POST. THESE ARE NOT MY WORDS BUT THE WORDS FROM A POST THAT IS UNDER DISCUSSION
PowerToThePeople
(9,610 posts)I overlooked it to respond directly to your request.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)and get lots of support and no push back from hundreds of posters who look nothing like me?
Things like that get said about people who look like me everyday and it happens alot around here. So forgive me if i thought that it was okay for me to say something like what i said. If it's sauce for the goose it's sauce for the gander right? I received very little assistance from those who are calling me racist when i was upset at that broad brush of black people. Why don't they ever get angry when those type of things are said about me and those who share my color. I expected better from liberal than to leave me flailing in the wind when attacked and generalizations are made about people of color, but then to attack me with such zeal even after i apologized. No one ever apologized for hurting me and no one attacked that poster for saying those things about us. Why?
PowerToThePeople
(9,610 posts)If someone had posted that without the context and knowledge that I had (about you) in this particular instance, I would have very likely alerted it and called it out for a bigoted post too.
I do understand that there are still many right-wing tea-party Caucasian bigots in the USA preaching hate on a daily basis. I do not think there are any here on DU, at least not for any real length of time before MIRT gets to them. If there are bigoted/racist/anti-AA posters floating around and posting on this board, I will have your back calling those posters out for what they are, racist fucks.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)You also did not see it until i changed the words black to white. Then you saw it. I see broad-brushes of black people all the time and i never see the out cry or the rush to denigrate posters who do that to people who look like me. They use generalities about us here day after day and only notice when it applies to them and could not care less when it does not. When i point something out that is racist and say it was racist, my statement gets hidden. I get told i am playing the race card. I have been called racist many times today and no one told them they were playing the race card and no one alerted on the posts calling me a racist. All those people that are a part of the majority bashing a minority woman loudly and proudly and calling her names with zeal and high fives galore. Enjoying my misery because i made them uncomfortable and never acknowledging my apology. I find it strange that you do not see the irony in a hundred white people bashing a black woman even after she apologized while ignoring hurtful things said about her and patting themselves on the back and being spiteful towards her. I hope you guys enjoyed yourselves at my expense.
PowerToThePeople
(9,610 posts)This is a completely false analysis:
You obviously have some very poor preconceived notions going on. You should work on that.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)You did not say you did until i switched out the words. Have a good day.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)in the very same thread where he was whining about being broadbrushed as a white male. Irony much?
So you question this OP, but thinly veiled racism is allowed to stand all the time around here.
PowerToThePeople
(9,610 posts)I was unaware of the other poster's reply, I do not read every post in these multi-hundred post threads.
As I said before, had I seen that post I would have alerted on it for it's bigoted viewpoints.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)the maligned one is true. So if you had to apologize for that one, I'm pissed! One way to look at the racism alerts directed toward you is that it brings out the normal hidden attitude of people good at hiding it. I have experienced a lot of that in this society in the last 6 years or so, even during the run up to election. Black women have been racistly maligned and abused for as long as black women have been a part of this society. Anyone who alerts on a statement such as that is a hypocrite. Anyone high fiving and trying to denigrate your truth is the same slick type that has been denigrating blacks and minorities for generations. You have NOTHING to apologize for. I love ya!!!! Hang in there, we need truth speakers in all 'progressive and liberal' forums. You're shining lights in very dark places and it causes the denizens of that darkness to scatter, scamper and whine about the light.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)What i said was true, i just do not feel like getting attacked by strangers all day long. I just sometimes think that people need to hear from a pov that they are not aware of. I hear their pov all day every day, but if i say something that makes them uncomfortable there is a mad rush to jump on the band wagon and insult me and call me names. I want them to be able to look back in a few years and know that something i said made them mire aware and empathetic towards people who do not look like them. One day their posterity will be in the minority and i want them to see what their grandchildren may be facing from a majority minority nation. I hope they do not face what i face. If we don't fix this stuff now, i think they will.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)ditto on everything you just wrote. Can't wait. Apologize for the truth and it gives people a reason to believe they spotted a chink in your armor. I have never apologized for truth hurting anyone.. You spoke/wrote/referred to the truth. I love it!
alp227
(32,013 posts)Isn't it scary that DU lets people echo right wing talk radio POV's?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)It is also scary to see the enjoyment they share at my misery and the enthusiasm with which they go after a black woman even after she apologized for hurt feelings. Hundreds of strangers attacking me and calling me names. I would call it a lynchmob but we are on the internet and i can leave if i choose.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)How many custodial fathers refer to their child/children as "the child"?
Yes ... as a father, I'm calling B.S.
PowerToThePeople
(9,610 posts)Talking behind my back negatively about me.
206. Just a question ...
I am a single father of a young child and do not receive any support from the child's mother. I can relate to and appreciate what you must be going through on a daily basis.
How many custodial fathers refer to their child/children as "the child"?
Yes ... as a father, I'm calling B.S.
Maybe I wanted to be as generic as possible so that no one knows too much info about me. Internet has all kinds out there. Your hate has kept you very close to my ignore list. This shity unsubstantiated post about me lying about my child's existence just put you over the limit.
Good bye.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)in a thread that you are actively participating in be considered "talking behind your back"?
Maybe ... But most parents would find "The Child" versus "My Child" a very strange construction.
Just saying ...
redqueen
(115,103 posts)ismnotwasm
(41,973 posts)K&R
WorseBeforeBetter
(11,441 posts)THIS is what works:
Moral Mondays... people coming together, not pounding away on keyboards.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)WorseBeforeBetter
(11,441 posts)But you brought it here, along with other divisive posts. It won't work. Trust me.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)You do not have to enjoy it. I do not know what you are talking about otherwise.
You can ignore me instead of being nasty. Good day!
WorseBeforeBetter
(11,441 posts)Notice anything interesting about that last pic? It's a sea of white. Mostly older. They're not your enemy.
Number23
(24,544 posts)coming across.
The fact that you see bravenak as saying all old white people are the enemy and yet this thread is absolutely FULL of older white people agreeing with her and telling her that her voice is needed and disagreeing quite passionately with people like you that keep denigrating her and distorting her crystal clear message, I keep waiting for some type of awareness to come into play.
WorseBeforeBetter
(11,441 posts)I've had enough Bravenak and her "crystal clear message" for one day.
Ditto re: "awareness."
Number23
(24,544 posts)I've had enough Bravenak and her "crystal clear message" for one day.
Your almost dozen posts in this thread alone say otherwise.
WorseBeforeBetter
(11,441 posts)I popped on over to see some quality posting and, wow, there it was. Whole lotta whining going on about DU; it's very Meta in that regard. Which I tended to stay out of when it existed.
"For one day" -- get it? Pulling the plug "for one day," capisce? I'm not sure why you're having difficulty with that.
Number23
(24,544 posts)And we've all seen your "quality posting" and know that we have sorely been deprived. Wonder why that is, exactly??
Cha
(297,029 posts)are up to so they can whine about it later.
Number23
(24,544 posts)WorseBeforeBetter
(11,441 posts)Oh, Cha, aren't you the charmer?
WorseBeforeBetter
(11,441 posts)I don't come to DU bitch/whine/complain about DU or my fellow DUers. If you and others consider this site a "cesspool," why keep returning to it? And if DU doesn't matter in the real world, why are so many invested in it?
Number23
(24,544 posts)Where we discuss movies, prison sentencing, gun rights, civil rights heroes, politics, racism and bigotry -- on the right AND left -- and about 100 other issues that you apparently can't be bothered to wade through because of the handful of posts where people have discussed the well noticed, well documented ignoring of our issues, lives and perspectives on DU.
Your (and those like you) dismissal of this forum says more about you than it will EVER say about the AA forum or the AA posters and our friends that post there. Which is why so many of us have left and the forum, much as this entire site, is just a shell of its former self.
Cha
(297,029 posts)like the AA forum. "It's very Meta" They hate the BOG.
WorseBeforeBetter
(11,441 posts)This delightful little post of yours could be one example of why the vast majority of DUers are dismissive of the BOG: condescending, mean-spirited, and childish use of smilies.
Look in a mirror, Cha.
WorseBeforeBetter
(11,441 posts)in which so many members consider DU a "cesspool"? I don't care for whining about DU, accusations of stalking and witch-hunts, the persecution complexes, etc. -- in ANY forum.
If you were to visit the NC group, you'd see that I have started numerous threads on issues that affect the AA community, including proposed dumping of fracking fluid in coastal counties with high AA populations, no Medicaid expansion, hospital closures in rural communities, repeal of the Racial Justice Act, exorbitant electric bills in poverty counties, and voter suppression.
Have you participated in those threads? It's a drama-free zone, and doesn't garner much attention. And if there's one thing DU does, it's drama. And division. The "old white" threads are perfect examples, and I'm happy to see the majority of my fellow DUers rejecting them.
I'll stick to this...
...not the nonsense I'm seeing on DU of late.
Number23
(24,544 posts)Really. It has. And you seem to have not realized that when I noted that you had been "missed" from the forum, that was a joke. Please believe that no one wants you to spend your "precious time" with groups of people you obviously find beneath you.
Your lack of participation has not been noted or missed in the slightest.
WorseBeforeBetter
(11,441 posts)And trust me, I fully realized your little swipe late last night. You're not challenging me in the least.
Again, the NC group touches on issues affecting the AA community and raises awareness re: the NC GOP juggernaut. Join in. Or don't. We tend to be issue, rather than personality, driven. And I don't recall ever seeing any "DU is a cesspool" threads in all the time I've participated. It's refreshing.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)separating the wheat from the chaff.
WorseBeforeBetter
(11,441 posts)And I imagine more than a few have taken advantage of the Ignore feature to block out the noise.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)provided by our illustrious Admin.
WorseBeforeBetter
(11,441 posts)alerting on wayward cartoons and politically incorrect language.
I feel safer already.
Kurska
(5,739 posts)Why are you offended that someone would assume that this represents your views?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I actually read it. Many did not. Therefore they are feeling feelings that they would not feel if they read it.
Kurska
(5,739 posts)"If you don't agree with my interpretation of the article, you clearly didn't read it".
I read it
"Other white people have dismissed mass stereotyping of other races, so particular white people have no grounds to say that it shouldn't happen to them when it happens to them"
I'm sorry, I don't accept collective responsibility for everything every other white person has ever done. Just like I don't accept collective responsibility for everything every other gay or Jewish person has done. I deserve to be treated as individual. Actually, I demand to be treated as an individual. If you're going to lump me together with our people, I'm going to tell you to sod off.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Have a wonderful day sir.
Kurska
(5,739 posts)I just wish you hadn't of dumped it in the middle of DU before you decided to.
If you disagree with me, clearly you just didn't read my post.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Have a nice day.
Kurska
(5,739 posts)I'll stop that immediately.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Feel better, now?
Kurska
(5,739 posts)Gimme a sec I'll try harder. Don't worry, I'll get you of this endless cycle of posting soon my friend!
WorseBeforeBetter
(11,441 posts)You are not the arbiter of what anyone "feels."
bravenak
(34,648 posts)You are very angry and i do not know you well enough to continue with you. Good day to you.
WorseBeforeBetter
(11,441 posts)Seriously bravenak, assigning emotions to anyone on a message board is weak. You may think it's some sort of effective debating technique, but it's not.
Trying listening, rather than just talking AT people.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)It is not. It is aimed at those who feel maligned and suggesting that they take their own advice.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)They much have lost their way while en route to a Tea Party rally
WorseBeforeBetter
(11,441 posts)And these guys? Yikes!
?1373351175
So much broad-brushing, so little time.
CJCRANE
(18,184 posts)Treat people as individuals.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)If you read it you will get the picture better than just assuming that it is stereotyping.
Kurska
(5,739 posts)Hey there buddy, I didn't write it, so it must be kosher for DU.
I'm gay by the way.
People are individuals, addressing millions of people as homogeneous blobs is stupid. Not to mention incredibly lazy thinking.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)You did not read the article. Obviously.
Kurska
(5,739 posts)Understand now?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)You are being very aggressive and i do not know you, sir and have not had many interactions with you.
Kurska
(5,739 posts)I didn't ask you a single question about the article, are you kidding me?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Have a blessed day.
Kurska
(5,739 posts)"I didn't write this, so I won't defend it. Except when I feel like defending it, because I also say that I agree with it. But It isn't my responsibility for bringing it to this forum, because reasons."
Mind boggling.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Have a blessed day. Good day.
Kurska
(5,739 posts)I'll fight the good fight right along with you buddy.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I need no help giving hell. Don't believe in hell unless you mean...... Being black in America.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-2i2-KR2K-sU/UQEmcyKXlgI/AAAAAAAAb7A/wVVasfVjLPc/s640/What+racism+means.png
Kurska
(5,739 posts)Some of it in the form of open violence towards me.
But yeah, clearly I don't know nothing bout feeling discriminated against. Otherwise I'd have problems with old white men too.
Also, I thought you were done talking to me? Does this ride never end?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I have gotten told to Africa by a dude throwing a Big gulp at me. I have been raped. I have been called names by teachers and students alike. I have gone to schools where i was the only black person there and got hostility from students and staff. I have been pushed in creeks by teenage boys playing drown the n-word. I have had ropes put atound my neck while they played hang the nword. I have told adults who refused to help me because i was a nword and they didn't want to look like nword lovers. I have no idea what discrimination you have faced, and you know now just the tip of the iceberg of foul treatment i recieved. I have stories for days.
I never said anything about you. You are taking this personally and i do not know you and did not post this article as a slight against you. Please stop.
Kurska
(5,739 posts)from people who I really ought to have been able to trust. The specifics, I am frankly not comfortably discussing with someone I do not know.
I'm proud to say that in some instances, I got the chance to give a little violence back to those horrific people.
I do take it personally when you imply I don't know what it is like to feel discriminated against. I can't marry the man I love in the state I live in. I can be fired for being nothing but myself. This isn't a competition though, though based on what you say you'd probably win that one. All I can say is it really rubs me the wrong way when we talk about a group, any group, as nothing but a blob instead of the individuals they deserve to be considered as.
That inclination is the root of all discrimination in society and it disgusts me whenever I see it.
WorseBeforeBetter
(11,441 posts)And many DUers have championed decriminalization and/or legalization for YEARS. But just the other day we learned that the AA group busts their collective guts over the pot warriors. Why not be thankful for those in Colorado and Washington? Who cares if they're predominantly white? They've accomplished something huge, and it's going to trickle down to other states. Well, sane states, at least on this issue. And hopefully it will benefit blacks.
Again, whitey is not the enemy.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)...if I may lift a phrase from Michelle Alexander.
A lot of us have been working on this issue for a long time. And, finally, some progress is being made. Obama got the Fair Sentencing Act of 2010 passed that reduced--but didn't eliminate--the crack/powder sentencing disparity. A policy screamingly racist in its results, even if you're willing to give the people who passed it the benefit of the doubt. There's more sentencing reform legislation in the pipe, and Obama and Holder are practically begging drug war prisoners (mainly black) to apply for clemency.
I think it was you who made a crack about all those white Libertarian drug legalizers who just want to smoke pot (and if it wasn't, this isn't about you). There are some folks like that--the drug reform movement cuts across ideological lines--but there are a whole lot more who are involved in this issue for social and racial justice reasons. And a whole bunch of them are white, and increasingly old.
And here's something to think about regarding those white pot heads: I suspect that for many of them, their persecution for smoking pot was the first thing that opened their eyes to the injustices of the criminal justice system. Once you've been fucked over by the system, it may make you somewhat more likely to have to some empathy and sympathy for other people being fucked over by the system.
If you want to work to end the racially discriminatory war on drugs, I'm with you. I'm not the enemy. And neither are the other people you're managing to piss off with your divisive posts. I gotta give it to you, though: In that thread started in response to your stuff yesterday, you managed to get a lot of people to post that I haven't seen for awhile. Of course, none of them are very happy with you.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)is the one where you have a personal interest.
That doesn't mean the other issues aren't just as real, just that you aren't able to empathize because it doesn't benefit you to do so.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)Bravenak posted about the racially discriminatory drug war. If Bravenak wants to post about issues like social justice, or racial inequality, or the military industrial complex, or corporate control of our political system, for starters, I'm happy to engage.
But in my opinion, talking about how bad white people are isn't a useful way to solve the real issues we face.
I love you how you think you know how I feel. You don't know me. Take your snark and insults and put them where they belong.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)of person with a persecution complex. Whether the article/statement is true or not, disparaged or agreed with, you take it all to heart because maybe you see yourself in the point of that article as being the person described? If so, then you have the problem. The poster was not the author, just found it interesting, I'm sure. I did...."Thou protesteth too much" to be taken as a serious individual with a balanced argument against the article mentioned.That type of attack is incredibly stupid and lazy thinking. You attacked the wrong person, YOU ARE WRONG!
Kurska
(5,739 posts)So no the article isn't about me in the slightest, I just think it is a dumb article. So no I don't think I'm being persecuted for anything. I just think it is an idiotic article, for the same reason I think moralizing to all gay people (which I am one of of) would be equally idiotic.
Thanks for playing I guess, maybe leave your assumptions at the door next time? It will save you looking pretty dang foolish when they are flat out wrong.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)in the sense that you were projecting your sexual orientation upon the article. Don't have to be "foolish" to see that, just aware of ones motivations, mine and others. No assumptions. The article stands as well as the pro-poster responses stand. Go try to confuse the issue with someone else. bye.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)not their age, or their skin color.
Older white guys are not all Donald Sterling.
Kurska
(5,739 posts)That would be racist.
progressives right here at DU do that all the time.
Kurska
(5,739 posts)by their supposed ethnic and age based foes.
They should make a thread on DU.
Inkfreak
(1,695 posts)gollygee
(22,336 posts)"If old white men feel maligned they should X" assumes that old white men who don't feel maligned need not do X.
In fact, it is even more specifically aimed at old white men who feel maligned and give advice to minorities, or else there is no X.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I have not clue as to why people assume i wrote it and am directing it at them. I never met any of these people.
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)And your moniker. You are brave
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I think it's called a lack of tact. Thank you for you help today. I really needed it.
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)You brought up a subject that I am shocked that has such resistance...on a so-called 'liberal' site, and I an astonished by some of the responses.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)This is very telling. Oh, yes, it is indeed.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)I think they know it isn't about them but don't want racism discussed and so they use this kind of a thing as a way to derail any discussion about racism.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)Some people have fed into the blacks are the real racists argument.
Bobbie Jo
(14,341 posts)Or you're dealing with people who struggle with extreme self-centeredness.
I mean, that's the only way you can misinterpret this issue, continually.
It looks seriously dismissive to me.
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)It was clear to me.
Cha
(297,029 posts)They will not be denied!
Leme
(1,092 posts)LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)Corruption Inc
(1,568 posts)Although I'm sure you won't.
alp227
(32,013 posts)Look up systematic discrimination. Racial inequality is a real thing in modern America, something even DU sadly wants to deny.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)JI7
(89,244 posts)in this country because a someone at a store might say happy holidays instead of merry christmas .
Bobbie Jo
(14,341 posts)apples/oranges
Why is this so difficult for some to grasp?
Seriously.
Skip Intro
(19,768 posts)And no, they won't.
They don't want to acknowledge the glaring truth.
They like bashing Whitey.
Response to Skip Intro (Reply #257)
Inkfreak This message was self-deleted by its author.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)good question and you are?
Response to heaven05 (Reply #300)
Inkfreak This message was self-deleted by its author.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)IGLTAF
freshwest
(53,661 posts)We're all in this together. Now it's time to act like it. Thanks for posting this piece.
Cha
(297,029 posts)link me to that con propaganda site that got MIRTed.
Anyway, Alyssa Rosenberg responds to him well.. "they should take their own advice to Minorites.."
"First, I would recommend a healthy dose of self-respect. Lewis seems to have that down all right, reminding readers that A lot of old white men have done really great things!"
White Privilege on parade..
Casey @pari_passu
Follow
What if this situation were reversed? This is what #WhitePrivilege looks like: #p2 #tcot
12:41 AM - 6 Jun 2014
327 Retweets 184 favorites
Thank you, bravenak
heaven05
(18,124 posts)of white fear and intimidation tactics all because we have an AA POTUS, National Security Adviser and Attorney General. Their heads are exploding. Although the brother doesn't look too afraid of that ding a ling.
Cha
(297,029 posts)heaven05
(18,124 posts)ran into this thread. It has really provided me with an eye opening experience about so called progressives and leftists on this site. I also know you are a true progressive in how you have revealed how much work we still have in ferreting out the truth as to what so called lefties are supposed to represent. The attacks on you have not been representative of balanced and fair disagreement. Talk of white male privilege and the underlying racism really scares a lot of people on this board. Really has been an eye opening afternoon. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)So many of us are schmucks. I'm glad we were able to demonstrate that.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)sheshe2
(83,710 posts)You are awesome, keep on fighting for the truth and some justice! We will not sit down and we will not shut up!
bravenak
(34,648 posts)It led to this and that is a good thing. I think we need to hold the party's feet to the fire and help them progress on race issues. I want no one shocked or to say they were not told that there are race issues in the nation, and yes, even in the Democratic party.
sheshe2
(83,710 posts)This I like! Yes! Let's hold the party's feet to the fire for a change, for a change that enlightens people of a real issue that has plagued America for centuries.
It is time, bravenak, past time. Both AA and women are way past due for the respect and equality that they rightfully deserve.
And, you are welcome. You are right, it is a good thing.
HockeyMom
(14,337 posts)and totally IGORNED. I say this all the time to my old, white husband. Try being FEMALE, whatever race, if you think you have it bad.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)The world does not cater to us and we don't have the priviledge of expecting it to. They do.
GeorgeGist
(25,315 posts)it's apparent that DU has a few old white men feeling maligned.
I'm not one of them.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Please spread the word. I'd really appreciate not getting bashed anymore.
I only mention one democrat by name- Bart Stupak. I meant conservative politicians and conservative democrats.
Anyone not fitting into the leans more conservative group was not being discussed.
Number23
(24,544 posts)WELL DONE. I bow down to your pwnage which is the sweetest most excellent executed pwnage I've seen around here.
Well done.
Skip Intro
(19,768 posts)This place has been thick with that bashing for some time, to the point that the admin felt compelled to make a statement on it. The cries of racism at every criticism have been incessant, here and from the larger party.
A "na-ah" piece in wp doesn't change that reality.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)Thank you for always providing us with the right wing perspective when it comes to bigotry.
At least you're consistent.
Skip Intro
(19,768 posts)Skip Intro
(19,768 posts)Posting things that you repeatedly decide you want to quickly hide.
Too bad no one has any screen shots of any of the many offensive and sick self-deletes you kick out on a regular basis, eh?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Skip Intro
(19,768 posts)Lies and personal attacks not needed when you got reality on your side, eh?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Last edited Mon Jun 9, 2014, 03:56 AM - Edit history (1)
I let other people alert me. They enjoy it ever so much.
JustAnotherGen
(31,798 posts)Love it!
bravenak
(34,648 posts)It reminded me of you and 23.
JustAnotherGen
(31,798 posts)heaven05
(18,124 posts)of topic discussion. What's the problem?