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Fri Jun 6, 2014, 09:30 PM

Let's Try It This Way...Under What Instances, Is It Okay To Praise The President On DU ???

D= Democratic Underground.

Perhaps when he gave us Obamacare? Sure many feel angry that we didn't get single payer, yet spin it any way you want. The votes were not there.

However Children can now stay on their parents policies until 26. That is a lifeline for youth in low paying minimum wage jobs and those coming out of college with large debt. We no longer can be denied healthcare for preexisting conditions. Let's be frank here, how many of you do not have one? Did you know that a victim of spousal abuse was a preexisting condition? People are no longer tied to their jobs due to health care benefits, they can pursue their dreams and get affordable healthcare.

Many of the uninsured were women, 19 million of them. And guess what, they will no longer be charged more for coverage than men. Imagine that! Yeah equality!


We have DODT and Doma. Rights! They have rights now in many states to marry who they want when they want and receive spousal benefits. They can now legally be at the bedside of a loved one when they are sick. That is a human right. Yes, I know the popular response is, he only went for it only when Biden brought it up. You always sell this President short. Change can be slow, painfully slow, yet we are getting there.

This President stands for equality for all, voting rights women's rights, equal rights.


There is more so much more, yet you know that, right? Well maybe not, because here on DU it is only Progressive to bash the President over the head day after day. Well you get the best of the best rec's and soar to the top of the page when you show how loathsome and disappointing this President is. All the while you claim that you voted for him at least twice, yet he has sorely disappointed you.

Bashing the party that is really at fault, the GOP and Baggers sadly don't bring the much needed rec's. So yahoo! Let's jump on Obama! It's so much fun and sadly popular on DU.

Never once, never once do you praise his successes. This goes way beyond "holding his feet to the fire." Way beyond.

He is a man, one man, and no not perfect. I for one never believed he was, nor expected him to be. It must be rather lonely at the top. This is how I see it. You do not vote for someone that you believe will make some much needed changes then turn your back on them. You don't leave them adrift. Obama stated more than once that he can't do it alone.

Our destiny is written by us. When we join together for a common cause, there is nothing we can't do ~ Barak Obama

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Reply Let's Try It This Way...Under What Instances, Is It Okay To Praise The President On DU ??? (Original post)
sheshe2 Jun 2014 OP
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sheshe2 Jun 2014 #393

Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 09:32 PM

1. this just doesn't read well and it comes off as whining.

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Response to cali (Reply #1)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 10:02 PM

21. Irony alert

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Response to KittyWampus (Reply #21)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 10:56 PM

56. really? how so?

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #78)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 02:22 AM

167. I kinda definitely think the poster was referring a moi. My name is not Willy.

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Response to cali (Reply #1)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 08:55 AM

233. Thought the same thing as I skimmed it

Perhaps a tad over-sensitive

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 09:36 PM

2. Good post.

Sadly some here believe that their is NO instance that is OK to praise or support the president, and when some of us do praise him or voice support, well it isn't long before that crowd shows up and does their best to change the subject and bring out all the negative things they can about him. It's really sad that some just can't admit he has done any good at all since he took office.

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Response to Andy823 (Reply #2)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 09:40 PM

3. This ^ ^ ^

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Response to Andy823 (Reply #2)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 09:43 PM

4. I thank you Andy!

They never admit it. Never praise him. That's just sad on a Democratic board!

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 09:46 PM

5. Um, when you're in the BOG.

Anything else?

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Response to theaocp (Reply #5)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 09:55 PM

16. That's you answer for a Democratic board.

Our sitting first African American President can only get praise for his accomplishments in a protected group. Really? On DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND he can only be praised in a protective group! Sorry if I repeat myself yet your answer just blows me away.

You want to segregate this President and those that praise his accomplishments! WTF!

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #16)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 10:38 PM

48. If you want to call someone racist, have the courage to make the accusation directly.

Your response is one of the most egregious misappropriations of symbolism I've ever seen on this website.

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Response to Gravitycollapse (Reply #48)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 11:30 PM

81. Oh please

It is what it IS

And when I have visited the Dis, I read references to "BOGscum." Lovely.

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Response to Hekate (Reply #81)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 12:00 AM

101. I only visited dis twice...

not for me. So I/We are "Bogscum" there. Nice.

Cha posted me a picture of a BOG,

Can't seem to find it but this is close...it might be it~



This doesn't look like scum to me. Thank you my dear Hekate.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #101)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 10:57 PM

347. That's it, she.. the Beautiful BOG that drive a few people insane..

Wetlands Gardens & Bog Gardens


"Are you unfortunate enough to have part of your property on a bog or marsh or to have a swampy ditch or large area of standing water? If your answer is yes, then your biggest landscaping challenge is going to be to change your perspective. Bogs, marshes, and swamps are all vibrant ecosystems that serve an essential environmental function, and you have become a custodian one of these treassures.

Besides being home and breeding grounds to many species of birds, fish, insects, mammals, and rare plants - bogs, marshes, and swamps are one of nature's primary water filters, removing pollutants and excess nutrients, and controling errosion. The quality of many lakes and some streams is heavily influenced by the quality of the bogs and swamps that feed them"


Delightful BOG

BOG

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Response to Cha (Reply #347)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 11:09 PM

348. What a beautiful link!

I thought that was the picture that you posted me, but couldn't find the link~ so... Cha.

the Beautiful BOG that drive a few people insane..


We do have a way of doing that don't we~

BOG!

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #348)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 11:17 PM

349. Yeah, The Barack Obama Group..

Cheers to us!



BOG

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Response to Cha (Reply #349)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 11:30 PM

351. There is indeed!

A lot more to come~



Cheers~

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #351)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 11:51 PM

354. Nice, I love that gif! The Week Ahead(More to Come..)



Wednesday



For instance Wednesday!.. The President will travel to Worcester, Massachusetts to deliver the commencement address at the Worcester Technical High School graduation ceremony.

He will also attend a DSCC event in the Boston area.

Monday Tuesday Thursday Friday and Saturday, too..
TOD

Lucky you, she!BOG

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Response to Cha (Reply #354)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 11:57 PM

355. Oh no!

I am off Mon Tues and Thurs...not Wed!

Thanks for the heads up anyway...I will be watching. Thanks Cha.

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Response to Hekate (Reply #81)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 12:02 AM

102. Serious? They do that?

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Response to VanillaRhapsody (Reply #102)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 12:21 AM

127. I read it more than once, and it was let to stand

I have posted now and again, but on the whole have no interest in the rampant hostility.

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Response to Hekate (Reply #81)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 12:05 AM

104. "It is what is IS"- What does that even mean?

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Response to Hekate (Reply #81)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 12:19 AM

124. the Ta-nehisi Coates article really exposed a lot, i'm sure the biggest racist zimmerman supporters

on dis are regulars on DU .

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Response to Hekate (Reply #81)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 08:53 AM

232. What is Dis?

What IS what it is? Please explain what in the hell you are talking about.

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Response to theaocp (Reply #232)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 09:29 AM

243. It's "The Discussionist", the new site that DU admin have set up

and where right wingers are allowed. It's not relevant to this thread, but has been brought in anyway.

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Response to Gravitycollapse (Reply #48)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 07:06 PM

332. It's the go-to comeback

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #16)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 08:51 AM

231. Did I miss something?

I thought you wanted to know "under what circumstances". That seemed pretty clear. What's with the bold terminology? What are you implying?

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Response to theaocp (Reply #5)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 11:35 PM

352. We need to enter the BOG

Animal, man, and swamp thing together! it has supernatural properties.

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)


Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 09:49 PM

7. Easy Peasy... When One Agrees... One Promotes... When One Disagrees... One Denotes...

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Response to WillyT (Reply #7)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 12:13 AM

117. it's short and it rhymes!

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Response to WillyT (Reply #7)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 06:12 PM

326. Waste Of Time

Really who cares? If they are more concerned with cheerleading and being yes people then they are in the wrong business. Representation is about results...not "feeling good" or expecting others to. We get it. They support the president and want us to more than the policies themselves. If they spent as much energy trying to change things Obama said he expects us to vanguard instead of worrying about who is kissing whose butt then we would get more done. Obama turned out to be way more corporate, way more intrusive and way more willing to give away our advantage to the even more corporate republicans. If we keep moving the center to the right them the next thing they will pull off is forcing us to just be happy we got Jeb Bush instead of Ted Cruz. Well played Bush Crime Family Cabal and your lackeys.

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 09:49 PM

8. it should always be ok , it's a Democratic Board

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 09:49 PM

9. problem (with your expectation) is

. . . there are just too many folks compelled to speak out who have real and pressing concerns (and needs) that sometimes can't bear praise for some unrelated issue or action associated with the President.

Not all good from the WH is going to outweigh every concern out here. It seems like this is a static audience that graces this board, but the membership is so diverse that there are always going to be folks whose life experience and perspective is unable settle for gains made by this administration.

We should be sensitive to those unmet needs and expectations, if we expect any acknowledgment of those things we feel satisfied with.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #9)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 09:55 PM

15. I will agree

People have concerns, and they should be able to voice them, but some here seem to never admit that he has done "any" good, only bad, and that's just plain wrong, period. Even if they are not happy do they really have to try and hijack threads that are about things many of us find to be worth praise?

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Response to Andy823 (Reply #15)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 10:04 PM

24. I'd say there's definitely some over-zealousness on all sides

. . . I think that's understandable, in most cases. Folks want to feel like they're being heard.

I do think some folks like to stir up trouble and some work to divide the community among ourselves. Still, I think it would be a tragedy if this board only focused on the things we like and didn't find room and understanding of those expressions of dissent and dissatisfaction.

It's not pleasant or comfortable to experience all of that (especially if you don't share those views), but I think it should be understood that there are many folks who can't countenance having their concerns overshadowed by a focus on things that someone else might think are going swimmingly. In most cases, that passionate and determined advocacy is a precious and beautiful thing.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #24)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 12:05 AM

107. Its Democratic Underground....its ABOUT the Democratic Party....AND the Democratic Party

currently owns the Senate and the Executive....and we have a slight chance to take back the House....but what do we hear "overzealousness on all sides".

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Response to VanillaRhapsody (Reply #107)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 12:32 AM

140. heh . . . it's about what we make it about

. . . since I came here in 2003, it's been a forum for folks to express concerns as well as a forum to express agreement with the party. It's well-positioned to provide a platform for both sentiments. It's not surprising to find that folks who feel compelled to post here are avid in those expressions; whatever is advocated.

It's the nature of advocacy that dissent or disagreement is amplified more than sentiment which expresses contentment with something or the other.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #140)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 12:56 AM

144. Here....we are SUPPOSED to be zealous! But to come here....its like stepping through the looking

glass....

This shouldn't be a place that treats Democrats like those at Free Republic treats Democrats. For crying out loud....No good deed shall go unpunished....even here. The criticism is not occasional....its constant....exactly like it is visiting one of those sites...and if terms like "Blogscum" are being bandied about towards those that support the Democratic President and others.....How is it any different than trying to hang out at Freeperville?

It certainly doesn't make us look very sure of ourselves and our positions!

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Response to VanillaRhapsody (Reply #144)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 01:11 AM

149. I'm sorry that's been your experience

. . . it what it is here, and I'm not sure that anything I say to try and explain why is going to suffice for you.

Try and understand DU this way . . . it began as a voice against the worst of the Bush era abuses and assaults on democracy, dissent, and our constitution. Even though we elected a Democratic president, many of those issues which inspired this forum haven't been resolved, and many of those concerns have actually been exacerbated and deepened; even with the election of and advancement of Democrats.

Moreover, I think it's a mistake to view this forum as some static or cohesive community of concerns. There is a myriad of opinion and interest here - much like the country as a whole - which is never going to be completely assuaged by the balance of power in Washington. To me, that's a refreshing and reassuring dynamic which ensures the vigilance and commitment that is necessary to effect progressive change.

I am sorry that a few folks are working overtime to pluck at your last nerve.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #149)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 01:27 AM

152. I lurked here for years...came to be informed....and then suddenly it started reading like FR

and I decided that people need to push back on that noise....be heard. This place should be the one place Democrats should be expect to be able to see Democrats being respected...and I can hear the reply already "they have to earn respect"....the problem is....nothing is EVER good enough. Its stick stick stick all the time....rarely any carrot. And those that actually try to use the carrot....are called "Bogscum"? How's that for ironic!

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Response to VanillaRhapsody (Reply #152)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 01:30 AM

154. I know it's hard to wade through the BS

. . . and I certainly appreciate the efforts, like your own, to present what you believe is good about and proper for our party. More power to you, VanillaRhapsody!

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Response to VanillaRhapsody (Reply #152)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 05:30 AM

193. That 'bogscum' comment was (is?) used on The Discussionist, not DU

Which I now find some people above have shortened to "the Dis" or "dis". It will help keep this thread clear if we keep the 2 sites separate.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #193)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 09:52 AM

250. And was it regulars to DU that used the term?

because that is the impression that I got. And is the Dis going to be the another yet another Blog where members of DU are going to be brought up and "discussed"? I note that they seem to know about the BOG....so obviously it WAS people FROM DU...

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Response to VanillaRhapsody (Reply #250)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 10:37 AM

261. You don't have to be from DU to know of the Barack Obama Group

Cavers know about it, for instance, and they've been attracted here. I can find 2 people using it on The Discussionist; one says they used to post here, but don't any more (which may include that they were banned); the other appears to be someone who is currently suspended from here for have 5 hides in the past 90 days.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #261)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 10:41 AM

264. Apparently you just contradicted yourself. As the 2 that used the term are or were former

members....

And guess what....if you google Bogscum....you get links to Free Republic....

My point stands!

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Response to VanillaRhapsody (Reply #264)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 11:10 AM

266. I couldn't see that you had a point - you didn't know who was using it

and I found out for you. I pointed out that you don't have to be a DUer of know of the 'BOG'.

So what was your point? And what are the contradictions you think you've seen?

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Response to VanillaRhapsody (Reply #107)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 07:26 AM

201. Interesting perspective. So it's about the Democratic Party, not Democratic policies?

See, to me, without those traditional Democratic Party policies, the Democratic Party is just the Republican Party in drag. Take a look at Mary Burke, Democratic candidate for Governor in Wisconsin. She's as Republican as they come, policy-wise. Should we support her anyway?

Seems like having a "Democrat" in the governor's mansion who is pushing Scott Walker's policies down our throats is actually worse than having Scott Walker do it. We'll still all get shit on, and Democrats will take the blame.

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Response to Scuba (Reply #201)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 02:09 PM

300. +1 a whole fucking bunch.

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Response to Scuba (Reply #201)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 02:35 PM

304. Well said, Scuba

Very well said.

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Response to Scuba (Reply #201)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 03:35 PM

308. well said

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Response to Scuba (Reply #201)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 09:32 PM

342. Thanks for the affirmation

I thought it referred to democratic policies and the values of democracy, forced underground by its social antithesis. This implies resistance to antidemocratic ideas wherever they are found, even in your own home...especially in your own home.

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Response to Scuba (Reply #201)

Sun Jun 8, 2014, 11:00 AM

365. Excellent post, Scuba! nt

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Response to VanillaRhapsody (Reply #107)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 08:14 AM

213. From the DU "About Us" page: "...we have no affiliation with the Democratic Party."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus

The DU Mission Statement in full:
Democratic Underground is an online community where politically liberal people can do their part to effect political and social change by:
• Interacting with friendly, like-minded people;
• Sharing news and information, free from the corporate media filter;
• Participating in lively, thought-provoking discussions;
• Helping elect more Democrats to political office at all levels of American government; and
• Having fun!

After more than a decade online, Democratic Underground still hosts the most active liberal discussion board on the Internet. We are an independent website funded by member subscriptions and advertising, and we have no affiliation with the Democratic Party. Democratic Underground is a truly grassroots community where regular members drive the discussion and set the standards. There is no other website quite like it anywhere on the Internet.

We are always looking for friendly, liberal people who appreciate good discussions and who understand the importance of electing more Democrats to office.

DU is a board for liberals. Beyond agreeing to help "elect more Democrats to political office", DUers are not required to be Democratic Party members, are not required to be Democratic Party partisans, are not required to hold any particular viewpoint with regard to the Democratic Party - and, in particular, are not required to either believe or vow, Democratic Party, right or wrong.

DU is NOT "ABOUT the Democratic Party" - it's about politically liberal people discussing issues. It's a "grassroots community" - that's the Underground part.

You are free to be a diehard Democratic Party partisan here, but it is not a requirement.

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Response to scarletwoman (Reply #213)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 12:17 PM

278. It's about "politically liberal" people who VOTE FOR DEMOCRATS, though.

So to some extent it IS about the Democratic Party. From the TOS:

Vote for Democrats.
Winning elections is important — therefore, advocating in favor of Republican nominees or in favor of third-party spoiler candidates that could split the vote and throw an election to our conservative opponents is never permitted on Democratic Underground. But that does not mean that DU members are required to always be completely supportive of Democrats. During the ups-and-downs of politics and policy-making, it is perfectly normal to have mixed feelings about the Democratic officials we worked hard to help elect. When we are not in the heat of election season, members are permitted to post strong criticism or disappointment with our Democratic elected officials, or to express ambivalence about voting for them. In Democratic primaries, members may support whomever they choose. But when general election season begins, DU members must support Democratic nominees (EXCEPT in rare cases where were a non-Democrat is most likely to defeat the conservative alternative, or where there is no possibility of splitting the liberal vote and inadvertently throwing the election to the conservative alternative). For presidential contests, election season begins when both major-party nominees become clear. For non-presidential contests, election season begins on Labor Day. Everyone here on DU needs to work together to elect more Democrats and fewer Republicans to all levels of American government. If you are bashing, trashing, undermining, or depressing turnout for our candidates during election season, we'll assume you are rooting for the other side.


Now, sure, we can get away with a lot outside of "election season," but by our words we are known--both to other DUers and the admins.

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Response to MADem (Reply #278)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 12:50 PM

290. But Obama is not a candidate.

Therefore, the TOS you quoted just above does not apply to criticisms of him.

Furthermore, it could be argued that the defense of Obama here interferes with the process of getting Democrats elected to offices in 2014 and 2016. The defense of Obama bogs and clogs up the message board.

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Response to grasswire (Reply #290)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 01:07 PM

292. I can't believe you said this:

".... the defense of Obama here interferes with the process of getting Democrats elected to offices in 2014 and 2016. The defense of Obama bogs and clogs up the message board."

I think that is probably one of the most bizarre comments I've ever seen on this board.


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Response to MADem (Reply #292)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 01:21 PM

294. go read the thread...

....where multiple members have posted their sense of offense at the vicious attacks here by defenders of Obama.

And I suppose you think the Joan of Arc reference to me is an insult? Duly noted.

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Response to grasswire (Reply #294)

Mon Jun 9, 2014, 12:18 AM

373. What Joan of Arc reference?

That picture is ALICE THROUGH THE LOOKING GLASS.

Know your meme...

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Response to MADem (Reply #292)

Sun Jun 8, 2014, 04:13 AM

360. Makes perfect sense to me. Defending right-wing policies and appointments is harmful ....

... to our party as it alienates the base.

I have difficulty fathoming why liberals would defend right-wing policies, and even more difficulty understanding why other liberals can't see this harms our cause.

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Response to Scuba (Reply #360)

Mon Jun 9, 2014, 12:21 AM

374. No, that's crap.

Right wing policies are those touted by Boehner, Cantor, et. al.

Frankly, I'd like, so long as we're talking about bullshit policies, to get rid of all the Paulbot shit, dressed up in liberal affectations, infesting this board like a horde of termites.

There's nothing liberal about those assholes--the attitudes on pot are just coincidental.

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Response to MADem (Reply #374)

Mon Jun 9, 2014, 03:05 AM

375. So you think right-wing policies can only come from Republicans?

Do you believe drone strikes, spying on citizens, chained CPI, too-big-to-fail-or-jail, secret trade agreements and similar policies are consistent with Democratic Party principles?

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Response to Scuba (Reply #375)

Mon Jun 9, 2014, 09:46 AM

377. "So you think" the POTUS is a right winger?

You know, those "So you think..." arguments are stale as last week's toast.

I guess all the help those terrible Democrats did in helping Liz Warren win her Senate seat, and vaulting her as a newcomer to the banking committee means nothing?

And when, pray tell, has "chained CPI" been IMPLEMENTED? Not tossed out like a crumb to get assholes to the table, but IMPLEMENTED?

And what "secret trade agreements?" Getting mad because you aren't "in" on the discussions that predate any actual agreements doesn't cut it. Did you want a seat at the table for the Berghdahl negotiations, too? Because it's your "right?"

As for "spying on citizens" you might have crabbed and cried about that a decade--or three--ago...and make sure you yell at your supermarket, drugstore, airline, and remember that every time you give up information to facebook, twitter, and every contest entry, that you are part of the problem. Get rid of that smart phone, too--it can track you, and that's no good (unless you're at the bottom of a ravine). Only drive an old car, the new ones have that ONSTAR thing in 'em that can be activated even if you don't pay for it (Obama didn't invent ONSTAR, either, just so you know). Oh, and let's take down every camera that records the average person a dozen or more times a day--in some urban environments, hundreds of times a day--yeah, that'll happen because you say so.

And, so long as we're complaining, let's tell the Russians, the Chinese, the Brits, the French, the Romanians, the Israelis, and every other nation with skin in the monitoring game to just STOP because we don't LIKE it! That'll convince 'em!

You know, Chicken Little learned that insisting that the sky is falling will persuade people to disregard you after a time. It's a good lesson.

The horse has left the barn. If you think you're going to stop surveillance with a foot stomp and a "That's outrageous" you'd better think again.

It's too late, baby! Even if we don't do it, someone else will. Welcome to the new world--if you don't want to be surveilled, you will have to take active measures to avoid it. Go on--start by getting off the net, and getting rid of that smartphone...it's the only way to be "sure" that no one sees what you're doing!

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Response to MADem (Reply #377)

Mon Jun 9, 2014, 10:14 AM

378. Wow, I'm amazed that a longtime DU member would defend that stuff.

"... chained CPI ... tossed out like a crumb to get assholes to the table..."

Yes, the basis for the starting position in any negotiation should be to adopt the opposition's positions as your own. At least if you want to give away the store.

A non-right-wing starting point would be lowering the eligibility age for SS, increasing the benefit and lifting the cap, not "a crumb" of capitulation. Unless you're trying to make things better rather than worse.

And it's not "a crumb" to SS recipients. It's food on the table.

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Response to Scuba (Reply #378)

Mon Jun 9, 2014, 11:36 AM

379. That line of attack is getting stale, too.

Why don't you try, for a change, to see the world as it is?

Instead of pretending that you're "Shocked, SHOCKED!!!!" and "Outraged, I tell you...OUTRAGED!!!!!" at what has been going on for many decades, now?

So, tell me--has the "Chained CPI" thing happened? Hmmmm? No? Anyone? Beuhler?

So stow your faux drama about "crumbs," do. No changes have been made, so stop crying like they have been. The sky is NOT falling.

With people living and working longer, and remaining healthier into old age (and thanks to that Obamacare that some so-called lefties were crabbing about on this message board, they'll be healthier still as time goes by) you're not going to see the age for SS lowered. Holding it will be a massive victory. And since the GOP won't negotiate with the melanin-enhanced POTUS, they won't be able to make any changes. That's a win in my book.

Still and all, Obama can legitimately say he tried to get them to talk to him, though they refused.

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Response to MADem (Reply #379)

Mon Jun 9, 2014, 04:19 PM

387. Excellent subthread, MADem.

Thank you so much for such an entertaining episode. Well done.

I especially liked Alice through the looking glass!

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #387)

Mon Jun 9, 2014, 04:55 PM

388. Well, I gotta say....

When Alice was mistaken for Joan of Arc I felt like I'd just gone through that doggone looking glass, myself!

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Response to bigtree (Reply #9)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 10:04 PM

24. A refreshingly even-handed comment

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Response to bigtree (Reply #9)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 10:36 PM

47. Bigtree, I have no problem with people speaking out their concerns.

And have compassion to many that do.

However, have you noticed that many here that bash this President daily never express a positive? Never. He is called a POS and that stands on DU and is applauded by many.

Change my title, omit Praise and substitute Criticize. That is part of an OP from last night. They admitted that they do it for the rec's.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #47)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 10:54 PM

55. I know some folks just like to aggravate

. . . and I know you have no problem with dissent, sheshe2.

Thing is, I don't believe most folks seek out a place called Democratic Underground to express satisfaction, even during a Democratic presidency. Contented people seem to be less likely to speak out than those who believe their voices aren't being heard, who believe their concerns and needs aren't getting enough attention and focus. It seems natural and understandable, to me, that discontent and disagreement would attract more support and attention than those things we feel have been resolved.

Yeah, the internet is a malcontent's haven. I just happen to think the reality of that is a motivating and energizing catalyst in our necessarily perpetual and vigilant advocacy.

Try to not take that dissent personally, and maybe take some comfort in how integral the instinct to agitation is to our efforts to effect progressive change.

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 09:50 PM

10. I give Obama good grades on drug policy, although that will elicit some howls.

He and Holder have been very good on sentencing reform, especially around the hideous crack/powder cocaine sentencing disparity, which affects almost exclusively black people. And now, they're actually asking drug war prisoners to apply for clemency.

The Obama administration has not threatened other countries that are enacting or contemplating drug reforms. That's a first.

And they're dealing with medical marijuana and marijuana legalization in a relatively enlightened way. Yeah, there have been raids on medical marijuana people and some of them are rotting in federal prison, but that seems to have lessened in the past couple of years--partly because people know what the Justice Department is going to go after, and partly because Justice has largely limited itself to people who violate its guidelines.

But Obama is basically allowing state-level legalization to take place. They could have fought it in various ways, but they haven't.

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 09:51 PM

11. You were referring to this

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025055646
So... Since The GOP Has Become Batshit Racist And Crazy... We Are Not Allowed To Criticize The Pres?


Your post is so timely, thank you! Obama has earned and deserves total respect. I am proud of him and not afraid to say so.

But you knew that.

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Response to babylonsister (Reply #11)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 10:00 PM

18. Yes it was what I was referring to, bsis.

Thanks~

And ya! I knew that.

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Response to babylonsister (Reply #11)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 10:17 PM

34. Never would I have expected

to see a thread like that on a place that calls itself DemocraticUnderground. Not in a million years. What a weird thing to post on a site like this.

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 09:51 PM

12. I believe i read last night that the reason some can't give him any credit is because.......

Anti Obama posts get more recs. I believe thats was the jist of it.
My best explanation for the lack of support he receives here as opposed to the broad support he receives from the party as a whole is because the make up/demographics of DU is not representative of the party's demographics nationally. The base of the party is women, Blacks, Asians and Latinos/Hispanics along with LGBT and young people. The make up of DU skews heavily older, whiter, and more male than the Democratic party and has a heavy streak of Libertarianism. We have been seeing a bit of a xenophobic attitude lately, a coldness towards AA's, some homophobia and a nice tasty dash of sexism to round out the course. And those posts can go to jury and stand.
Why would anyone who isn't already here who is of the base as i described above want to join and engage with us just to be called a Obamabot or a reverse racist or a screeching feminist or told to speak english or go away by democrats?
Our democratic board has so much in common with republican boards i like to read and compare us to them and sometimes i LOL at the similarities between their posters and ours.
I have read too many times here that we need to try to reach out to... Drumroll please...... WHITE MEN! Not our base, and our voters, but we need to reach out to old white males and not say stuff that might make them anxious. Why? Because the board is full of them and some of them think that the nation is not paying attention to their problems.


That's my tldr explanation of the sickness that we suffer from.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #12)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 10:08 PM

26. I agree with the part about older people dominating DU. This is anecdotal but I

get the impression from reading comments at this site that most posters are older and many are really old. We have the Baby Boomers Forum and the Seniors Forum. But where is a forum for young people? There isn't one. I don't mean to sound ageist, and I realize we all get there one day, but I wish there were more people closer to my age at this forum.

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Response to totodeinhere (Reply #26)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 10:21 PM

37. "where is a forum for young people?"

That's actually not a bad idea. I remember when I was on Datehookup.com, that site had separate forums for all the age groups, and people were allowed to post random stuff.

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Response to totodeinhere (Reply #26)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 10:31 PM

42. We do need a forum for the under 35's.

I only used 35 because i'm 33 and i want to be included.
Somebody needs to start one.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #42)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 10:41 PM

51. Well would you allow me to post there once in awhile if we get one?

I am almost twice your age, bravenak.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #51)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 11:07 PM

64. Of course anyone should be allowed to post regardless of age but the

focus of the forum would be issues important to a younger age group. And conversely I'm sure that I would be welcome in the seniors forum to discuss issues important to seniors. As I said we all get there one day.

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Response to totodeinhere (Reply #64)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 11:20 PM

73. Well thanks, totodeinhere

And LOL, I don't consider myself a senior yet and am not part of that forum. Give me another 15 years or so, maybe I will apply. I feel pretty young. You will to when you get here. You are as young as you feel!

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Response to totodeinhere (Reply #64)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 11:33 PM

82. And the alternative is that you never get there.

Depends on which you prefer.

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Response to madfloridian (Reply #82)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 09:46 AM

247. Hopefully our spirit and outlook will remain young and optimistic.

I was just referring to our chronological ages.

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Response to totodeinhere (Reply #247)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 09:48 AM

248. It's what I was referring to also.

You either get old or you die young.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #51)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 11:13 PM

70. I never exclude anyone. And you in particular can go anywhere with me.

We would need somebody to talk to instead of just the ten or so of us posting gifs and wondering why it's so quiet and lonely.
Maybe i should send out a PM to ten trusted DUERS and ask what they think.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #70)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 12:13 AM

115. Well I know you would not exclude me...

thanks sweetie!

And I just choked on my wine reading your last line!



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Response to bravenak (Reply #70)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 09:13 AM

239. I saw that ...

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Response to bravenak (Reply #42)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 07:56 AM

206. I'd like to see a group for college students as well

It seems like the education group is more for policy than anything (nothing wrong with that, my guess is there are a lot of teachers on DU). I support both ideas.

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Response to totodeinhere (Reply #26)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 11:26 PM

76. Why you young whippersnapper



Actually, it's easy easy to start a new forum, so have at it.

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Response to totodeinhere (Reply #26)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 12:06 AM

108. "most posters are older and many are really old."

Well you don't have to get older. There are alternatives.

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Response to totodeinhere (Reply #26)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 12:18 AM

121. age is just a number

if you are wise beyond your years, join the chorus of us...

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Response to icarusxat (Reply #121)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 09:50 AM

249. I understand what you are saying, but in our society we are often categorized by our age

whether we like it or not. At my age I am ineligible for Medicare for instance. And in some states older people are required to renew their driver licenses more frequently. We can't escape our ages completely.

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Response to totodeinhere (Reply #26)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 08:18 AM

215. True and older people are more critical of everything

It was the way it was in school and growing up. Every little mistake could be dwelt on, because there wasn't as much information out there as there is now. You had people who were upset at scores of 99% on tests because it was not 100%. Nobody believed in encouragement as they do today. It was all assuming the worst of you and dwelling on mistakes and paying no attention to successes, taking that for granted.

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Response to treestar (Reply #215)

Sun Jun 8, 2014, 04:13 AM

361. Oh my Godz

You are damaging my brain.

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Response to Hissyspit (Reply #361)

Sun Jun 8, 2014, 09:09 AM

363. Thank you!

I read that post and just thought, "WTF???", and quickly moved on - because I couldn't figure out how to even begin to deal with the unbelievable wtf-ness of it.

I'm so glad you posted your response - it's perfect!

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Response to Hissyspit (Reply #361)

Sun Jun 8, 2014, 09:31 PM

372. It was damaged already

What do you not get? If you grew up in the 60s you got a lot of criticism. Because they believed you need that or you'd have too big a head.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #12)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 10:13 PM

32. I am pissed off at the Democratic Partyv because it has become too cozy with...

Wealth and Corporate Power.

That's a problem that affects all of us.

Liberal on "social issues" if one is apathetic/supportive of the status quo of concentrated wealth and power doesn't cut it in my book.

I would hope that women,women, Blacks, Asians and Latinos/Hispanics along with LGBT and young people would also be critical of that, because it is oppressing you too. After us "old white guys" are gone, you will have to live under the stifling weight of an entrenched Oligarchy and Monopoly Capitalism unless we all push the party back to economic progressive populism and liberalism.



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Response to Armstead (Reply #32)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 10:29 PM

41. After you old guys are gone the rest of us will make up the new majority.

I think it will take much less time than the estimates project. I have two children, he has four, i expect to have two more and that will still mean i will have the least amount of children for a Lady in my family. My grandmother had ten. Most of my friends have several already and are continuing to procreate. Many of my white friends are in mixed marriages and have several children who identify as asian or black or hispanic not white. Minorities are not cozy with wall street for the most part, and women especially single one are less likely to vote Republican. So in twenty years we will not have 2 Parties run by Old white Dudes who service the rich. We will be voting ourselves a right good part of their money, praise R'hllor.

You got to realize that power is shifting towards a more liberal society and that it is the old white men who are standing in the way of progress, passing shit laws and fighting against womens rights. The kids growing up see their congressmen screeching about illegals, urban youths, thugs, wetbacks and more. They will not be voting for Republicans. And Democrats better get our shit together and start bringing in the next generation quickly before Republicans decide to get smart, steal our platform, and out voters. Because sorry to tell you, the youth is not interested in the NSA all day everyday, they post every private thought they have on Tumblr, facebook, etc.

They will kill wall street when they get their time. I'll be right here helping them find the means. And we need their help to do it because the old party bosses still control the legislature, for now.
The only way to get the votes is to get the voters engaged. And horror stories about how much you hate Obama is not a good lure when you are fishing in a pond of Obama supporters, and the youth , women, lgbt's, and minorities are supporters of this President. You are driving them away and losing us votes.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #41)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 10:43 PM

52. Ha!

Rather then referring to old white men you ought to get off your immature high horse and start looking at issues in terms of issues and realize that you're playing the same game as the Republicans in terms of stereotypes.

A lot of old white guys were championing civil rights equality, etc. long before the next generation was even a glimmer of possibility.

And if you're biding your time until you get a chance to "kill wall street" I'd say you're blowing it if you ignore the continuing entrenchment of the power of the Gilded Age Oligarchs -- a lot of us old white people have been sounding the alarm about that for years. . And you also a bit blind if you ignore the fact that many of your contemporaries are contributing to that process in their professional lives even as they champion social issues.

What is behind the dislike of much of what Obama does is not because he is liberal on some social issues, or is an African American, or any of that. It's because he is contributing to a wrong turn towards increasing Corporate Power and decimation of the economic safety net for average people. Ad so many democrats have done, they package Republican economic policies in a more appealing social package.

That's the problem. Some old white guys conribute to the probkem, but so does anyone who gives them a pass and says it's okay to do things like sell out the Internet and pass secret right-wing trade agreements



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Response to Armstead (Reply #52)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 11:02 PM

60. Immature high horse. You sound so old.

I just laid out the world as seen from my view down here in the gutter and my telling you that the vicious of the attacks against the president is not winning voters to our side. It is not helping to engage the youth or women or minorities. You know, the people who make up the bulk of our party.
Those low minded liberals who try to accomplish what they can and move us toward a more perfect union are not the ones who will receive the wrath of the future voters.
And talking down to younger voters and blaming my contemporaries for not fixing the problems caused during YOUR time, during the reagan revolution is silly and disingenuous.

We had two choices for president and we choses the best candidate both times by electing Barack Obama, i am Proud of my choice and i would fill in that bubble for him over McCain or Romney any day. There were no other candidates that appealed to a majority of voters.

If you have problems with the amount of power corporations have you need to look to the legislature and the supreme courts. Blaming everything that has gone wrong in this nation on one man majes you all sound....... Like republicans.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #60)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 12:10 AM

113. I believe your insults toward older people here are something quite new.

I don't remember ever seeing it happen here.

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Response to madfloridian (Reply #113)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 12:20 AM

125. They are not insults.

This is my view of the issue. Sometimes the truth hurts us the most when we are unaware that there was even a problem.
Would you prefer i not give my opinion? The older people in the party need to start reaching out to the next generation of voters, be more inclusive, and notice when there are no minorities in the conversation.
And when we speak out, instead of getting pissed and feeling oppressed, realize that you are not the oppressed, we are. And we are asking to be included in the discussions and sometimes we get offended when our politicians that we support are denigrated by the party. We would like for you to support us a bit more and we will return the favor in the future. Our votes matter and our voices too often get shut out by the cacophony of wailing and the gnashing if teeth.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #125)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 12:24 AM

131. You think the issues are mostly with the elderly?

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Response to madfloridian (Reply #131)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 12:25 AM

132. Mostly men and mostly older.

Yes.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #132)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 12:27 AM

135. The jury agrees with you. Which carries bad connotations even for us white women.

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Response to madfloridian (Reply #135)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 12:32 AM

139. I am sorry for that truly.

I am sorry you are hurt by my words and i want you to know that i have never seen you post anything harmful or hurtful to me. We all suffer the sins of others in our nation.
The woman's burden. It's a shame really, white women just barely got the right to vote and own themselves and now we lump them in with their former oppressors. I do feel bad that i hurt you.
I just cannot think of another way to express what i see.

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Response to madfloridian (Reply #113)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 03:14 AM

179. Didn't you just note to another poster that there are "alternatives" to getting old?

For simply daring to note the obvious -- that many DUers are out of touch with the Dem party and for wanting to have a forum for members close to his age?

For sure, that is something I know I don't remember seeing here before.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #60)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 06:08 AM

194. Worth looking at actual voting figures before using your broad brush

2012 exit poll: http://elections.nbcnews.com/ns/politics/2012/all/president/#exitPoll

Look at the 'Age by Race' category. because 'white 45-64' is by far the largest category, it's also the largest category for 'voted for Obama'. Here's where the Obama vote came from:
White 45-64 11.02
White 30-44 6.84
White 65+ 5.46
White 18-29 4.84
Black 30-44 3.76
Black 45-64 3.72
All other 3.35
Latino 18-29 2.96
Black 18-29 2.73
Latino 30-44 2.13
Latino 45-64 2.04
Black 65+ 0.93
Latino 65+ 0.65

You are right that women are the majority of Democratic voters (29.15% to 21.15% men). The median age for an Obama voter is about 44 (see the figures for the 1st "in which age group are you?" question). If you regard "under 45" as 'youth', then you can say youth make up the bulk of the Democratic party, but most people would use a younger age than that.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #194)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 06:46 AM

195. I was really speaking of the proportion of demographic to how they voted.

Blacks vote democratic whether they are male or female, a higher percentage of us vote for democratic candidates than any other group. Hispanics are a growing population demographic and we vote democratic also, a high percentage of us vote dem. Millenials are a large group also and skew left, young minority millenials vote dem in high percentage with white millenials voting dem less than their minority counterparts. As you go up the age demographic the votes for republican candidates go up with minorities skewing left and the majority skewing right. This is not a broadbrush, this is just how the votes go and the political views lay of Americans.

I wasn't saying youth make up the party, i was saying that the party is made up of women, minorities, lgbts and younger voters with white males voting in lower percentages for democratic candidates. 18-35 or 40 to me is a young voter since we don't get to start voting until 18. This information is not controversial.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #195)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 07:26 AM

202. This is the first time you've mentioned percentages or proportions

"The base of the party is women, Blacks, Asians and Latinos/Hispanics along with LGBT and young people. "
"the youth or women or minorities. You know, the people who make up the bulk of our party. "

You seemed to think these categories actually described majorities in the party. That's only true for women. And yes, "it is the old white men who are standing in the way of progress, passing shit laws and fighting against womens rights" is a broad brush.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #202)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 07:30 AM

203. If you add women to minorities and younger voters you get a majority of dems.

The majority of dems are not older white men. They are women, minorities and younger voters. I am absolutely correct without even using percentages or proportions. And it is old white men standing in the way of my progress. Most of them are republican.
You have not seen restrictive laws against black votong and womens wombs put forwards by young white women. Old white men push those laws and get them passed.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #203)

Sun Jun 8, 2014, 03:17 AM

358. This

And it is old white men standing in the way of my progress. Most of them are republican.
You have not seen restrictive laws against black votong and womens wombs put forwards by young white women. Old white men push those laws and get them passed.


madfloridian posted in an op she's been away for a year. She doesn't have any idea about what we've been reading around here. It's creepy sometimes. But a youth board or nextgen - that sounds cool. GenX and younger. Cut off at issues for those born in 69 or later.

Why? We understand the deck of cards in play and put Bill Clinton in office.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #60)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 09:08 AM

238. I am getting old...but I wouldn't have said that to all young people

There are a lot of young people I admire and respect. It has nothing to do with age.

It has everything to do with attitude. There are huge numbers of young people I would not apply the term immature to.

But your dismissiveness of anyone not within your own definitions of demographically acceptable is immature.

Your statements are engaged in the pitting of people against each other is a lot like the mirror image of the GOP and wingnuts. You equating a lot of stuff by age, race, sex, ethnic etc.

I LIKE President Obama, agree with him on much (including the fact that he has a 3D view of racial issues) etc. Etc. Blah.

But on the issues that ultimately drive who gets what, who holds the power, etc. I profoundly disgaree with many of the things he has done...Just as I profoundly disagree with the

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Response to bravenak (Reply #60)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 05:14 PM

321. You are missing the point I'm afraid

"And talking down to younger voters and blaming my contemporaries for not fixing the problems caused during YOUR time, during the reagan revolution is silly and disingenuous."

The problems became entrenched during the "Reagan revolution" and the problems continue due to the influences of the Democrats that decided to absorb the Reagan economic policies into a new branch of "Democrats" (New Democrats), as well as the party that spawned Reagan, and among the New Democrats that have adopted his policies is our current president.

You need to study up on the topic if you wish to discuss Reaganization issues, because in fact those are centrist positions by design and definition.

A quick primer below: (there is much more to know about the 30 year "Reaganization" effort against our party which is responsible for shifted us so far to the right of center regarding all but social issues, but a few key facts should get you started on understanding "Centrists" and how much damage has been done by them).

New Democrats, in the politics of the United States, are an ideologically centrist faction within the Democratic Party that emerged after the victory of Republican George H. W. Bush in the 1988 presidential election. They are identified with centrist social/cultural/pluralist positions and neoliberal fiscal values. They are represented by organizations such as the Democratic Leadership Council (DLC), the New Democrat Network, and the Senate and House New Democrat Coalitions.

After the landslide electoral losses to Ronald Reagan in the 1980s, a group of prominent Democrats began to believe their party was in need of a radical shift in economic policy and ideas of governance. The Democratic Leadership Council (DLC) was founded in 1985 by Al From and a group of like-minded politicians and strategists. They advocated a political "Third Way" as a method to achieve the electoral successes of Reaganism by adopting similar economic policies (Reagan Democrats and Moderate Republicans would provide burgeoning new constituencies after adding these new economic policies and politicians to our tent they contended) While hoping to retain, woman, minorities and other social issues allies with long ties to the party. Such would be their new Democratic coalition forged between fiscal right and social left under the "New" Democratic banner.

The term Third Way refers to various political positions which try to reconcile right-wing and left-wing politics by advocating a varying synthesis of right-wing economic and left-wing social policies. Third Way was created as a serious re-evaluation of political policies within various centre-left progressive movements in response to international doubt regarding the economic viability of the state; economic interventionist policies that had previously been popularized by Keynesianism and contrasted with the corresponding rise of popularity for neo liberalism and the New Right. In a sense, 80s Moderate Republicans are almost identical to "Third Way" Democrats, one reason I found Obama's statement that he was, policy wise, closest to an 80's Republican refreshingly honest and at the time I gave him kudos for his honesty.


The idea that such sold out Democrats are liberal simply because they champion liberal social issues is the reason they have been so effective in imposing conservative economic policy during those times when the Republicans lacked the power to do so.

I think your youth is partly to blame for thinking Reaganesque policies are liberal because the DLC Democrats support them when in fact liberal economic theory was part of the party from the thirties until the eighties. A time before you were politically active and so you likely do not know that Keynesian economic policy is a Democratic option that is no longer tried (but yet was the most successful for the larger population than Chicago school economics has ever been).

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Response to Dragonfli (Reply #321)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 10:48 PM

346. Excellent post! Well said!

The idea that such sold out Democrats are liberal simply because they champion liberal social issues is the reason they have been so effective in imposing conservative economic policy during those times when the Republicans lacked the power to do so.


I'm of a generation when left economic policies were actually the norm. People who became politically aware after Reagan have no idea how this country used to be, what the Democratic Party used to stand for, what life was like in the pre-corporate globalization years when unions were strong, monopolies were broken up, tariffs protected domestic production of goods, and taxes on the upper income brackets were high.

It has long astounded and saddened me that there are so many people willing to accept social liberalism as sufficient, as the benchmark of being "liberal".

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Response to Dragonfli (Reply #321)

Sun Jun 8, 2014, 11:00 AM

364. Great post, Dragonfli.

Last edited Sun Jun 8, 2014, 11:45 AM - Edit history (1)

This is exactly why I don't see the Democratic party becoming more liberal, even after the "old guys are gone." It has less to do with demographics than the political atmosphere of the last thirty or so years and where it's pulled the party.

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Response to Dragonfli (Reply #321)

Sun Jun 8, 2014, 12:25 PM

366. Great post! Those ignorant of history are doomed to repeat it, and those ignorant of present reality

are all too often the unwitting tools of the 1%.

For those ignorant history and present reality, I post these educational materials for their convenience, in the hope they may get an inkling of the reality of our present situation, and not doom future generations to lives of complete hopelessness by naively aiding and abetting the real enemies of democracy, freedom, and most everything that is good and beautiful in our world.

Please, stop living in the past, and being part of the problem, and become an active part of the solution, and help give yourselves and future generations a shot at a life with a safe environment and real options for a high quality life.











Don't support this:



Support this:


“Our strategy should be not only to confront empire, but to lay siege to it. To deprive it of oxygen. To shame it. To mock it. With our art, our music, our literature, our stubbornness, our joy, our brilliance, our sheer relentlessness – and our ability to tell our own stories. Stories that are different from the ones we’re being brainwashed to believe.

The corporate revolution will collapse if we refuse to buy what they are selling – their ideas, their version of history, their wars, their weapons, their notion of inevitability.

Remember this: We be many and they be few. They need us more than we need them.

Another world is not only possible, she is on her way. On a quiet day, I can hear her breathing.”


― Arundhati Roy

lib·er·al

open to new behavior or opinions and willing to discard traditional values.

con·serv·a·tive

holding to traditional attitudes and values and cautious about change or innovation, typically in relation to politics or religion.

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Response to Armstead (Reply #52)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 11:39 PM

85. ....

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Response to bravenak (Reply #41)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 11:28 PM

80. " After you old guys are gone the rest of us will make up the new majority."

What majority would that be, could you clarify? Please?

So now you think old guys are the problem?

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Response to madfloridian (Reply #80)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 11:55 PM

94. You should read the whole thing.

He said 'once us old guys are gone', so i repeated it and continued with my line of thought.

The new majority as i see it will be, women, single parents, minorities, and LGBT, the older population skews more white and less liberal in their social views and voting patterns. 5,4,3,2 their time is up. It's a song by Jade from the nineties.


Yes. I do think old males are the problem. Yes. Definitely. Older (white)males are more conservative (vote republican-older black males and hispanic males are quite conservative socially but vote liberal)than my generation, Millennials, and vote to keep the power in the hands of the few. Younger white males and females vote more Democratic but not as much as minorities and single white mothers. They are a part of the solution. So are we, the minorities that get ignored and the women who are called screeching feminists. As a black woman here, i have been told by a fellow liberal to 'go watch real housewives of Atlanta', you know, the 'Black' real Housewives. I have also been told that Black Men leave their families and Black women have too many kids and don't know how to use birth control. The first post got deleted but you can find it in my thread in AA called 'you can say anything you want about black people and get way with it'. The second stood a jury and one of the jurors said i should refute it instead of alerting. An all black jury would have seen the racism in that post, but our jury thinks that kinda post belongs on a democratic site. See what i mean.

Older liberals have been waiting for a big block of liberals to come into the party and change the game. We have arrived. And we do not feel wanted and are concerned by the shutting down of conversation about the issues that matter to us in favor of all day every day Obama criticism. The new big block of voters consist of democrats who like the President and are democrats because of him. So am I. I was not even interested until him because i knew my vote did not count for shit in America. Maybe it still doesn't unless i vote for who the 'real' democrats choose. Or i bash Obama.

Now, you have the right to criticize all day every day if you want to, but it's getting quite difficult to tell the difference between an angry old liberal and an angry old republican. You all sound just alike and i read talking points on Red State and them come to DU and read the same thing here. Cannot tell y'all apart by your words, the only difference i can see is the D.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #94)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 11:58 PM

95. You are saying we all sound alike? Like Republicans? Well You won the jury poll....

so I guess you are the winner.

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Response to madfloridian (Reply #95)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 12:05 AM

105. I can see that this upsets you.

I feel the same way every time a member posts black on black crime stats and black on white crime stats without even thinking about posting the white on white stats or the white on black stats. And when i was called the worst racist on DU in a pm. And the Asian privilege thread. And the he's not white he's half asian thing. And when a poster used the n word and i asked him what it meant and i got alerted on. The gefilte fish post. The chicken threads. The piece of shit thing, turds and shit is a term used by racists to denigrate blacks, i know that for sure, i went to a majority white HS for three years and i got called that in gym class by a neonazi kid everyday until i snapped on him. Poor guy will probably have breathing problems for ever. Yes. I feel like a winner.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #105)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 12:13 AM

114. Oh, yes it does upset me. I never use the n word, never have.

Since the jury thinks what you are saying is okay, then fine....you win.

I have just never seen it happen here. It's a shame, really.

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Response to madfloridian (Reply #114)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 12:26 AM

134. It's been an issue since before i joined.

Really. I am not trying to pick on older people, i hope to be one eventually science and my health permitting.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #134)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 12:28 AM

137. Please continue.

This is getting interesting.

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Response to madfloridian (Reply #114)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 09:33 AM

245. sad state of things here.

there is so much ugly in this thread.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #94)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 11:59 PM

98. I think every older DUer should read what you just posted. Every word of it.

And then they should read it again.

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Response to madfloridian (Reply #98)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 12:13 AM

116. I agree.

If i can handle the way the black community gets trashed by America, i think they are strong enough to read it and if it doesn't apply let it fly. I deal with hearing black youth horror stories and hearing white politicians look down on our communities since birth and i have survived and i thrive.
It is painful for me and may be painful for you to read, but this is how a young black woman with a bit of intelligence see's the political landscape of our time.

When we speak out people get upset at our words and their guilty feelings and refuse to see the truth in our statements. We get ignored, told to pipe down, and are redirected to issues that are not the issues that we want to work on. What we say does not count, it gets us rejected and shut down.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #116)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 12:15 AM

119. Who here trashes the black community? Name the older people here at DU who do that?

When you make such claims you have a responsibility to follow through with sources.

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Response to madfloridian (Reply #119)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 12:24 AM

130. I just told you.

In AA there are threads galore about the issues colored folks have on DU. I wrote one myself titled ' you can say anything to black people and get away with it.'

LiberalStalwart wrote one recently.

There is also one titled ' Racism, alive and well in the democratic party'

We also have a running list of racist things said to us by fellow duers.

You should go and take a gander at the threads and read a bit and let me know if you want to discuss any of it.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #130)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 12:25 AM

133. What is AA?

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Response to madfloridian (Reply #133)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 12:27 AM

136. African American.

Most here don't realize that we exist in a forum. That's where we go when we want to post interesting articles or just vent or get support when we get hurt.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #136)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 06:51 AM

197. Regarding this exchange, I want to draw your attention to something....

This thread, on seniors and the Democratic Party.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x261440


Which references a prior thread that is also worth reading on the seniors/DU issue. Just some background.

TO THE JURY: It is not against the TOS to refer to prior threads. The admin facilitate this by providing a very handy advanced search function.

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #197)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 07:08 AM

199. Thank you.

I have a clearer picture of this whole thing now.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #199)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 07:16 AM

200. Want clearer?

Google my username and "Black Agenda Report." "Cornel West" "Tavis Smiley" and the relevant usernames and you will see some interesting threads.

To The Jury....it is not against the TOS to refer to prior threads...the admin provides advanced search for just that function.

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #200)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 08:26 AM

219. That was pretty bad.

I hate the BAR. I really do. And Cornell West is never coming to my inaguration when i get elected to high office. That type of thing really bothers him. I'll invite my driver and all of the hotel staff and leave him crying in the lobby. Then he and Tavis Smiley can make money trashing me all over america. Just like they do to Obama since he never invited Cornell West to something or other and now run around trash talking him. What a waste.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #136)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 08:04 AM

207. Probably true

I only know because I wonder into the Asian Group often because it's the closest thing (besides Americans Abroad) that I identify with given I live in Asia.

That's kind of one of the things about DU that disappoints me at times, that there aren't many groups that are interesting to me.

BTW I grew up in a small town in Oregon (wasn't born there) in the 80's and saw how nasty people were toward minorities, AA in general.

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Response to davidpdx (Reply #207)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 08:11 AM

209. Feel free to visit us when we have a thread going.

I lived in a small town too once. Think it almost has 3000 people now. Terrible exoerience for me as a child, but when i went back i at least still had my mexican friends there and could at least find a place to fit in. Knowing spanish and having a hispanic surname saved me from being ostrasized, but they still have a certain attitude towards us.

I haven't been over to the Asian group yet, maybe one day i'll stop by and take a look. I wonder if we have a Hispanic forum.

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Response to madfloridian (Reply #119)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 12:56 AM

145. There are many here that trash the black community here madfloridian

I have no clue as to the ages of the people that do, yet it happens daily.

As bravenak said, go read AA. Sadly you did not even know what that was. The small African American community that we have left on DU. It is their forum.

I am white and I am female and I sadly, I have to say a senior of sorts, yet I don't feel old. I can still kick ass and run around most of my younger coworkers.

Please go read the posts there. You will understand much if you do.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #145)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 01:04 AM

146. The only groups I use are Computer Help, Education, and What's for Dinner.

It is not racism that I did not know that forum is there. It is because I don't think of things that way.

The people saying those things should be handled promptly by a jury.

I don't know who here is white or black. I was really surprised to see the anger toward old white men, and also the slams by two people about the old people here holding back progress.

It should be their forum. Like the Barack Obama forum should belong to those who post there. There should be no room for attacks like that in either forum.

I do not think that the elderly should be attacked though, it doesn't make good sense.

I have not done a search of the forums, only when I am looking for a particular one. It has nothing to do with age or race...

I am sorry some make those attacks. I never have and I never will. It's wrong.

But attacking the elderly because they are old and saying they are in the way of progress is wrong as well.

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Response to madfloridian (Reply #146)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 01:28 AM

153. I never thought it was racism that you did not know about the group.

As for the elderly, I don't really see it that way and I am just over 60. Our party is for all age groups and our youth are so very important for our future. IMHO it was not an attack yet a call for our youth to come together. They are our future madfloridian. They are not shoving us aside, they are taking up the mantle to continue the fight.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #153)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 01:41 AM

157. They don't have to put down the elderly to "take up the mantle".

I have never put down youth, so I don't know where the heck that is coming from.

If that is the future of the party, that seniors are said to be holding us back....then count me out.

When the jury flat out says that old white men are holding back progress, and it is said at a Democratic forum where many of the old white men are very liberal...then there are problems.

If they believe this forum is too "old" for them, they can always start up their own.

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Response to madfloridian (Reply #157)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 02:41 AM

170. I don't know where you are getting all that.

Seniors and I am one, are not being put down here or out to pasture so to speak. Our youth are still learning from us, yet soon it will be time to pass the mantle. They have an amazingly strong voice and they will be heard, they learned a lot from us after all. The fight has been going on forever. It will continue until it is done.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #170)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 03:43 AM

189. I think you are not reading some of the posts carefully.

Those amazingly strong voices in this thread are not showing desire to learn from us, they are wanting to put us out to pasture.

It's like walking on eggshells around here. This is the first thread though in which I have encountered prejudice toward old people here at DU. I think you need to reread some of the comments.

Lately I have been accused of being racist, right wing, and hating Obama. None of those things are true.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #170)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 04:06 PM

316. I agree with you

I am white, I am male and I am "old", over 60, but I did not get the impression that the younger posters were bashing me, nor did I see anything that suggested the wanted to put us all out to pasture and take over. Seems to me that some of the posters on this thread are lacking in reading skills and shouldn't read things into comments that are not there.

I want to see the younger generations get involved, and I think they see things from a different prospective. I also agree with them that bashing the president daily, as some here tend to do, isn't helping to get younger and minorities involved in the party. My son is only 20 and my daughter will be 23 in October. I love to here their view on things, even if I don't agree on everything they may say, we can at least talk about the problems we have in this country and find common ground. An example is infrastructure, my son and I both agree we need to invest in fixing it and in moving forward like Europe has been doing for ages. We have to keep he young involved, and listen to their ideas.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #153)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 10:06 AM

253. Like you, I'm over 60.

And I'm delighted to see young Democrats who are passionate about politics!

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Response to bravenak (Reply #94)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 01:21 AM

150. what dominates politics in the US is talk radio

the racism is there and always will be but using it for political purposes, whether it's about the brown hordes coming across the border or some obscure news item chosen by a $200,000 a year high IQ sociopath working in a think tank, we're fucked until thinking americans figure out democracy, which can actually fix this, can't work as long as there are 1200 radio stations reaching 50 mil a week with think tank scripted lies all day long.

they put carnival barkers on every corner and stump in the country with GOP KKK-lite and until americans get that figured out and respond, we're fucked.

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Response to certainot (Reply #150)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 01:51 AM

160. We know what they are doing and the people who listen to that talk radio are....

Well, they are, hmmm how should i put this, not the demographic that is interested in a more liberal society. They are clowns and the only people who do not know it are the listeners. They are not increasing their audience, their audience is dying off. The big influx of new voters in this country are the hispanic/minority voters and young voters and screaming about brown hordes coming across the border is not going to get much play.

It's actually hurting their cause so i don't mind them so much, because they are reaching to their own choir and letting us listen in to their death rattle. I give it about five years until the hosts start dying off and are replaced by Tejano music stations and 70's music. Really. It's just about over.
The GOP died with Reagan. The just didn't know it yet so they had a Tea Party.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #160)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 02:20 AM

166. we don't have time to wait for it to die out

those motherfuckers already cost us 20 years.

that's why we'll spend valuable time on bergdahl

because the left ignored them those radio stations got us into afghanistan and iraq and almost iran, gave us bush thomas alito roberts, one shitload of deregulation, tax breaks for billionaires, and a reagan-was-god history rewrite that may actually hold!

it made the difference the last 25 years and the bergdahl buzzgasm proves it's still going strong- that's what every local and national talk radio blowhard has been pushing the last week- and it always works because the left would rather listen to a scratched barry manilow cd from under the seat than be aware of what's dominating messaging in the US.

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Response to certainot (Reply #166)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 02:49 AM

171. LOL!!

I just cracked up for a cool minute!
You're right, i do listen to it everyday, i can't help myself. There was a dude on last week blaming the Africans for slavery and blamed JayZ for everything else. It just sounds so stupid i can't believe anyone with a brain could get into it without approaching it like a comedy act.
But the listeners are the same people who were listening 25 year ago. My stepdad started when Rush first got started and he's been dead for years. Suicide. I really do sort of blame talk Radio and the OJ trial a bit. It drove him mad.
Those people are in their seventies now and with voter ID the republicans are thinning their own herd while they thin ours and we have more voters turning 18 every day so the pendulum has swung left and the nation is playing catch up. Next presidential election will be the one where republicans show fear and start scrambling for fresh voters. It wont work because they hate everybody that does not look like them. We may have lost twenty years to their bullshit, but they lost the future with their hate and xenophobia. The Tea party dug their grave.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #171)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 12:36 PM

285. i hope you're right, but it needs to happen really soon. they're getting ready to divide up

the antarctic.

the problem is still this: in most parts of the US there are no free alternatives for political talk while driving or working. so even if their main demographic is considered to be old white men, it's on in the background everywhere, repeating and repeating, coordinated and loud, and for a lot of people those stations are often the only sources for current events before going home to tell the family and friends. and many of those stations are the loudest in their states, working hard for the koch think tanks leading up to elections, and may be the only sources in emergencies.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #171)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 12:42 PM

288. PS, the OJ trial was maddening. it was a great eg of how effective rw radio was for

politicizing racializing spinning and blowing up otherwise 'mundane' events.

with my conspiracy mindedness i even entertained the notion OJ was set up exactly for that purpose. i forgot what the other more important events were at the time, that it was distracting from.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #94)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 08:10 AM

208. I can tell you the problem isn't exclusive to the US

I see the same problem here in Korea. The older generation is very conservative and stern. Generally Korea has become much more multicultural then it was when I got here 10 years ago. I am not a permanent resident and can vote in local elections and I support the same causes whether it is in the US or Korea. I spent the week before the election prodding my students about voting as many of them are voting for the first time.

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Response to davidpdx (Reply #208)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 08:13 AM

212. I figured the problem was widespread.

We are seeing a backlash against conservative policies now thankfully. They just don't work for everyone ( except the rich) and are not in the best interest of my family.

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Response to madfloridian (Reply #80)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 12:25 PM

280. In terms of both voting and issue positions, older white men are a strongly GOP constituency overall

That doesn't mean that there aren't plenty of older white male Democrats and liberals, but they are definitely a minority if you look at the aggregate.

In contrast, the younger generations-which are also more diverse in terms of race, ethnicity, family structure, and social status than the older generations-are much more Democratic and liberal.

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Response to YoungDemCA (Reply #280)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 12:31 PM

284. The younger generation in this thread just denigrated the "old people" here at DU.

That doesn't sound very open-minded to me.

I am older, and I have been under the gun for griping about Obama's attacks on public education, and his tendency to want to cut Social Security while calling it something else.

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Response to madfloridian (Reply #284)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 02:17 PM

301. I'm with you, madfloridian.

But you knew that.

I'm just an old white guy. I must be a racist conservative, lol.

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Response to madfloridian (Reply #284)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 02:42 PM

305. Agreed

Wow - ageism on DU. I thought the folks here were above such crap.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #41)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 11:37 PM

84. Well well, one juror agreed that "Yes, old white men in the way of progress. Exactly that."

Okayyy

I am not a man, but I am white, and I guess I am old. Wonder if old white women stand in the way of progress as well???

Inquiring minds.

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Response to madfloridian (Reply #84)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 11:58 PM

96. Did you really alert my post? :(

Tisk, tisk, tisk!

I was typing up a detailed answer to your inquiry and i took my time a bit so that you would get to see the world from my pov. Patience is a virtue. I have lots.

Can i see it then since you did the do? The results of the alert?

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Response to bravenak (Reply #96)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 12:00 AM

99. I think you get a copy.

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Response to madfloridian (Reply #99)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 12:06 AM

109. Not if the alert fails i don't.

Never mind. Thanks anyway.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #109)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 12:07 AM

111. Well, you seem to be quite prejudiced against old people. The jury agrees with you.

So that tells me a lot right there.

May you live a long healthy life, because the other choices are grim.

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Response to madfloridian (Reply #111)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 12:11 PM

277. Really, that is your take away that she is prejudiced against OLD people?

wow, i have too many jury issues so I wont say anymore

it is getting to the point here where I have to self censor myself so much that I dont think I can say anything anymore

i would want to say that privileged white people seem to have privilege here as well

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Response to randys1 (Reply #277)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 12:28 PM

281. So now the battle is against "privileged white people"? Not just old people at DU?

I am not sure what is going on here, but I know I post stuff that is clean of those issues.

I did get upset at some of the attacks on the old people at DU.

Read post #41, #26, #94

I do not post about stuff like this usually, and I avoid the threads. But the topic of not wanting the older people here at DU was way way out of line....so I got involved.

Now I am seeing a side of DU I never took part in and did not know existed.

But damn, I am painted with the same brush as anyone who ever did post stuff like that.

We are all individuals regardless of skin color. That works more than one way.

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Response to madfloridian (Reply #111)

Sun Jun 8, 2014, 08:45 AM

362. Jury results

I meant to post these last night.

On Sat Jun 7, 2014, 06:15 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Well, you seem to be quite prejudiced against old people. The jury agrees with you.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5060650

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Accusing a DUer of prejudice where none was intended. and that 'may you live a long life' is a veiled insult.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sat Jun 7, 2014, 06:29 PM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: meh
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: These unnecessary alerts are tiresome.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

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Response to madfloridian (Reply #84)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 07:43 PM

338. For your inquiring mind:

On Sat Jun 7, 2014, 06:15 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Well, you seem to be quite prejudiced against old people. The jury agrees with you. http://www.democraticundergroun

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Accusing a DUer of prejudice where none was intended. and that 'may you live a long life' is a veiled insult.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sat Jun 7, 2014, 06:29 PM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE Explanation: No explanation given Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT Explanation: No explanation given Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE Explanation: meh Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE Explanation: No explanation given Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE Explanation: No explanation given Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE Explanation: No explanation given Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE Explanation: These unnecessary alerts are tiresome.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

I am dismayed by the ever increasing divisiveness and derision on this forum, especially when one of our most admirable activists (you, mad) is a target. (I'm so grateful for your continued participation on this site.)

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Response to bravenak (Reply #41)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 01:05 AM

147. Well, good luck with that.

I remember thinking something quite similar 45 year ago.

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Response to Blue_In_AK (Reply #147)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 01:22 AM

151. In 45 years from now......

There will no longer be an America that is a white majority nation. I was born at the perfect time to see this nation finally become a majority minority nation. Demographic do not lie, they tell the tale of what is to come. We need to build on what we have now and make it better for those that will come behind us. There will be no conservative revolution coming to save the republican party from being relegated to the dustbin of history. No southern strategy will increase their numbers, no Reagan democrats to vote against their own interests to harm 'Welfare Queens' that never existed, a 'white hands' ad will not get them votes, and screaming about 'Crack baby future Criminals in training' will make them look like the racist assholes they are.

There's a political storm a brewing, and every year more democrats are born, the middle class has shrunk, and we do not realize yet that we have hit rock bottom. If you fear that a majority minority nation will allow some old white billionaires to keep all of the power and continue to disenfranchise brown people, i hope you live long enough to see that your 'Dream of Spring' come to fruition. Please, stay healthy, stay alive, because we are going to rock their world in about ten sweet years, when my kids are grown and half the nation is brown. You will be overjoyed.

And once we have the power, we will vote ourselves and you a right good part of that wall-street money to pay ourselves back for the Great Financial Catastrophe they caused. And the republicans will go the way of the whigs and a new left will be born. I have great intuition for things and you guys just did not have the numbers to do what you wanted to do. You needed us to be born and grow up. And here we are. And there are a whole lot of Millennials, and we are procreating like crazy.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #151)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 03:07 AM

176. Well, as I said, good luck with that.

I will not be around in 45 years unless I live to be 112, which is doubtful. I think most of us old fogies here, of whatever race or gender, had high hopes that we could change the world when we were bright-eyed, idealistic youngsters ("We can change the world, it's dying to get better"), and we had just as much disdain for our elders. (Famously, "don't trust anyone over 30.")

Somehow we were derailed. Human nature being what it is (again, regardless of race or gender), you may be derailed, too. For your sake and the sake of my children and grandchildren, I hope not, but, again, I don't have much faith that an American Utopia will become a reality. I've got to admire your optimism, though.

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Response to Blue_In_AK (Reply #176)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 03:14 AM

180. I'm a discontent idealist.

I really believe that now that everyone is getting screwed, and the pain is so widespread, we can change the game. Gotta hit rock bottom before we can brush ourselves off and move forward. Poverty is the great equalizer and we are getting poorer and and more pissed. Either they let us make a decent living or i think head are going to roll. Rich heads in particular. Are the rich are afraid. They should be.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #41)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 10:23 AM

260. I love your optimism and fierceness

and I'm right here with you. We live in interesting times. The seriousness of economic matters, the critical importance in reducing inequality and redistributing wealth back to those who deserve it and actually work hard every day and deserve to afford a home and good health care, demands that we all look ourselves in the mirror and consider our words carefully. We've got to significantly raise taxes on the rich, in my opinion. Bring them back to levels over 50% of their income. Raise capital gains taxes over 40%. Remove all corporate tax loopholes. Demand they pay their share. I know for me, I don't sit back and let it slide in real life when I hear self-described leftists whine and moan about the President or the Democratic Party. I basically tell them that I believe in leftist principals and that requires at minimum voting for the most progressive people on the ballot in every election, and also doing what one can to reject overly corporate machinations. For example, that can be as simple as getting rid of corporate credit cards or taking your money out of a megabank and putting into a local bank or better yet a credit union.

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Response to lovemydog (Reply #260)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 11:17 AM

268. Without whining and moaning, the wealthy and powerful and the politicians who are their puppets....

...stay in control.

I refuse to give unquestioning uncritical support to any politician or party whose actions help to further embed the forces of economic oppression and who allow the Corporate Dictates determine their political actions. I don't care what color, race, ethnic background, gender or sexual orientation those politicians might have. When they do things that are wrong we should call them on it.



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Response to Armstead (Reply #268)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 11:29 AM

273. The wealthy and powerful and politicians who are their puppets

don't hear your whining and moaning.

People who may or may not vote for progressives do.

I'm not saying don't whine and moan occasionally. We probably share many of the same frustrations. What I'm saying is that folks who hear what you say in real life, and to a probably smaller extent read what one posts on a message board - many of them are undecided about whether to get up off their butts to vote.

You can do what you want. Me personally, I try and be very positive around others who may be listening to me or reading what I write - and try and encourage them to vote for the most progressive possible candidates on every ballot in local, state and federal elections.

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Response to lovemydog (Reply #273)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 01:42 PM

296. Many people I know.....

are disappointed and frustrated at Obama and the Democratic leaders, but they basically support them. And they sure as hell don't want the GOP to take over, so they'll do what is necessary to work for Democrats.

And in real life when the subject of politics arises with people who are either conservative anti-Obama or fence sitters, I generally speak favorably and do a sales for Democrats and liberalism despite my pissed offedness at them.

What I most objected to in your post is the characterizing of criticism as "whining and moaning."

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Response to Armstead (Reply #296)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 07:30 PM

337. Thanks for your thoughtful reply.

I'm sorry I used that characterization. Enjoy the rest of the weekend!

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Response to bravenak (Reply #41)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 11:28 AM

270. and furthermore, your ideal doesn't match reality

What is most likely to happen in the decades ahead is that differences of class, race and sexual identity will become less important, as part of the momentum that is continually occurring.

People of all ethnic origins -- or their kids -- will blend into the "melting pot" just as has already happened. The majority of kids of parents who identify with an ethnic group will identify less with that group than their parents did, and will instead will become culturally assimilated. Just as at one time, if you were Irish you were considers a despised minority. Nowadays, except for St. Patricks Day, and a certain natural pride of heritage, Irish is the same as American.

So the distinctions you make are less important to the advancement of true economic and social progress than issues of moral values, ethics, economic polices, tolerance of diversity and the basic functioning of Democracy than your demographic divisiveness.



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Response to Armstead (Reply #32)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 10:44 PM

53. "Liberal on "social issues" if one is apathetic/supportive of the status quo of concentrated...

wealth and power doesn't cut it in my book." Exactly.

Social liberalism, while unquestionably a positive move when it comes to cultural issues, does little to challenge the economic status quo and entrenched power. That's why it's actually relatively easy to do. Our Owner Class Overlords couldn't care less if the proles get gay married - cultural fights are simply useful to them as wedge issues to induce certain members of the population to vote against their own economic interests, but that's all it is to them.

Challenge the actual structure of power, and the iron fist shows up. Just ask Occupy.

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Response to scarletwoman (Reply #53)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 02:20 PM

302. Perfectly well said.

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Response to scarletwoman (Reply #53)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 06:10 PM

325. You are correct of course, unfortunately, many think that only social issues should be liberal

Or perhaps could be liberal, I noticed that a young person here did not see economic liberalism as an important factor, blaming our problems on Reagan and the elder generation while failing to see how his economic policies had been absorbed by the portion of the party that person was holding up as liberal.

It occurred to me that a younger person may not even realize that there are (or were) liberal economic policies as well as social ones.

I tried education, but do not know if it will be understood or researched by that person.

Also:

__ __
__ __
__ __
__ __
_____
__ __

Six in the fifth place

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Response to Armstead (Reply #32)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 11:11 PM

69. The people who control the wealth and power are happy to throw us the occasional bone

on social issues as long as they keep a tight grip on economic issues, which is what is important to them. In fact, even in the Republican Party the big boys don't really care about social issues either but they exploit those issues just for the votes of social conservatives.

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Response to Armstead (Reply #32)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 09:40 AM

246. Please don't take this wrong; but ...

women, Blacks, Asians and Latinos/Hispanics along with LGBT and young people would also be critical of that, because it is oppressing you too. After us "old white guys" are gone, you will have to live under the stifling weight of an entrenched Oligarchy and Monopoly Capitalism unless we all push the party back to economic progressive populism and liberalism.


We are already critical of all that; but "after (you) 'old white guys' are gone", we will have one less struggle ... we could concentrate all of our efforts on the "entrenched Oligarchy and Monopoly Capitalism"; rather than struggling against those on the left that support a racial/gender/LGBTQ status quo, that would still have us behind ... once we conquer the "entrenched Oligarchy and Monopoly Capitalism."

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #246)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 11:11 AM

267. I can't speak for everyone but...

I don't know many people who have basically progressive leanings who support a "racial/gender/LGTB status quo."

Priorities of individuals may differ, as do ways that one believes are best ways to make progress, but it is possible to walk and chew gum at the same time.







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Response to Armstead (Reply #267)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 12:30 PM

282. "I don't know many people who have basically progressive leanings who support the status quo"

You're right, they don't really exist. But many people who support the status quo claim to be progressive and/or Democrats.

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Response to YoungDemCA (Reply #282)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 12:41 PM

287. yes, and I point to ...

Those that argue, "it's all about classism" with a side of "individual freedom", as the prime example.

That is NOT" a mere matter of priorities.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #12)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 10:20 PM

36. Oh you did indeed read about it last night...

I responded to that very subject. Rec's~

and you said...

The base of the party is women, Blacks, Asians and Latinos/Hispanics along with LGBT and young people.
snip
We have been seeing a bit of a xenophobic attitude lately, a coldness towards AA's, some homophobia and a nice tasty dash of sexism to round out the course.


Yes indeed we are his base, and we are pretty damn strong. Yet there seems to be a huge problem here. We are being told to sit down and shut up! I agree it stems from white males. Sadly that is the GOP handbook when dealing with minorities. Gawd knows they hate women and gays and wish to suppress AA. We are better than that our party is better than that. I believe we have disrupters.

This is not what the Democratic party is all about.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #36)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 10:34 PM

44. Many disrupters.

I see more republican talking points here than i see at politico, and you know they love them some GOP.
Sigh.

We will get this straight, i am sure of it. After this next midterms goes to shit, then we will start thinking about supporting Democrats instead of trashing them. And some accounts will go into hibernation for a year or so until it's time to disrupt again.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #12)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 01:07 AM

148. I'm old and white (though not male) and I totally agree with you

And I've put my money where my mouth is on these subjects here numerous times.

We have a preponderance of posters here who think that being liberal means something about "protecting individual freedoms"--that's conservative libertarianism talking. Liberalism is about our collective societal well-being; it's about the ways we attempt to make our government work for the greatest social good--not our personal ability to smoke a joint in public. If you want to talk about the drug laws that for decades and decades have imprisoned young black males disproportionately and ruined lives, I'm with you. But I don't really give a rat's ass (one way or another) about your "individual right" to smoke dope. There are collective rights—like fairness in housing and education—that are critical to a great number of people in this country. And if we want a civil and safe society, yes, we need gun control laws. Your "individual rights" do not trump the common good.

And then we have the group suddenly obsessed with jobs and the economy and income inequality, as if these problems started yesterday. They're suddenly obsessed because for the first time (since the Great Depression) white males have been feeling the pinch. They weren't complaining over the last decades about the income inequality that has existed for women and African Americans and Hispanics since ... forever. And they still don't get it. Because it's only all about them. That's not liberal.

And yes, there's the sexism and xenophobia in spades (women and people from elsewhere are threatening to the white male status; these groups get something, it must be taking away something from them). There are the tough guys, whose only interest is seeing politicians and bankers put in prison (they don't want to figure out the complex legal niceties, they just know somehow these buggers need to be put away, and then everything will right itself). And they always want someone who will "FIGHT." They like fighting and revenge a lot. They like tough. Ooga booga. And they're always disappointed, because our elected officials don't fight enough, and aren't tough enough. How about wishing they could "think" enough.

Sometimes I don't know why I'm here. I'm far from perfect, but I at least try to think ... and not just of protecting my own interests and turf.

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Response to frazzled (Reply #148)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 01:36 AM

155. This was such a good post.

I cannot disagree with anything you said.
And the joint thing. Yes! I do not care if you want to smoke drugs i care about the sentence disparities. Yes we need to work on drug policy and lower prison times for non violent offenders, but i also don't want dealers hanging outside my home or anywhere really. There has to be another way to do this without just letting people sell drugs in parks and shoot each other over territory.
Put the money we save by not giving out 25 year sentences into rehabilitation and sober living, cheaper and more effective. Put the dealers into workforce development and trade technical schools and train them in good paying jobs, they do it for the money not for the status. And Jr college should be free up to an AA degree and trade school as well. Save money by training our offenders and making them into tax payers, and prevent more dealers by educating them in fields where they can earn a decent living. They can do Caltrans as punishment and pay a fine as long as no violence is involved. I think that is a better plan than 'Just Legalize all Drugs'.

On gun control. Yes.


You are spot on with the sudden noticing of income inequality. They only want to discuss class disparity, not gender or race inequality. And everything else you said in the last two paragraphs. Yes to all that to, i agree.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #155)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 09:26 AM

241. You make a very important point about the focus only on class disparity

as opposed to gender and race inequality. The populist anger at wealth is not an end in itself: the focus should be on specific policy across many areas that can bring increased equality for traditionally disenfranchised groups. The whole populist thing feels like just another angry white male thing to me. Maybe I'm wrong, but it's how it comes across.

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Response to frazzled (Reply #148)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 03:24 AM

184. Fabulous post. In the AA forum we bust guts laughing at the "warriors" for legalizing marijuana

because it "disenfranchises black people", but who have NARY A WORD to be said about the million billion other ways that black people are disenfranchised on a daily basis. Actually, black people all over the Internet laugh at folks like that. God, they are obvious. And pathetic.

And yes, there's the sexism and xenophobia in spades (women and people from elsewhere are threatening to the white male status; these groups get something, it must be taking away something from them).

And it's always the "feet to the fire" crew that engage in these behaviors. The ones that never have a decent thing to say about this president or Democrats in general are always the ones downplaying women's issues and telling everyone not American or IN America to shut up (unless they agree with their constant criticism, of course). It's so transparent and so obvious.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #184)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 10:41 AM

263. I agree

As I see it, the stuff your describing is elitist balderdash. Not seeing the forest from the trees. Narcissistic whining over some single issue not relating economic needs. On a more optimistic note, youth is where it's at. I'm delighted so many here are posting that younger people are going to skew more progressive. That's the future, and I look forward to it.

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Response to frazzled (Reply #148)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 10:02 AM

252. Yeah ...

all of that!



{But you'll probably lose you card on that one.}

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Response to frazzled (Reply #148)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 10:11 AM

256. Great post!

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Response to frazzled (Reply #148)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 12:31 PM

283. Excellent post

Well said, and thank you.

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Response to frazzled (Reply #148)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 04:13 PM

318. Excellent post.



Thank you.

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Response to frazzled (Reply #148)

Sun Jun 8, 2014, 01:06 PM

368. Got it.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #12)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 03:08 AM

177. Wait.. what? Someone actually POSTED for everyone to see that he is critical of the Pres just to

get recs??

Now, if anyone is actually surprised about that sentiment PM me because I've got a bridge to sell. The ONLY thing that shocks me is that someone here actually fucking ADMITTED what every single person here sees EVERY SINGLE DAY.

I have read too many times here that we need to try to reach out to... Drumroll please...... WHITE MEN! Not our base, and our voters, but we need to reach out to old white males and not say stuff that might make them anxious. Why? Because the board is full of them and some of them think that the nation is not paying attention to their problems.

We've all seen them. And the folks that say this type of idiocy are the same ones that scream and bray like mules when someone (correctly) compares them to the Tea Party.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #177)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 03:17 AM

181. Oh, did you miss that one?

It was good and terrible, waxing nostalgic and vague. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5056192

I found myself baffled by the whole thing and i have no idea what it was really about to be sure.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #181)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 03:25 AM

185. Good Lord...



But 1SBM's response was golden.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #185)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 03:28 AM

186. He has a way with words.

It was nice to see somebody admit to what their motives were. I enjoyed SheShe's response immensely.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #186)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 03:37 AM

187. Well, folks are apparently revealing themselves all over the place lately

Some (as in this thread) are doing it completely unintentionally by revealing what (and who) they think is and is not important.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #187)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 03:59 AM

190. You said it!!

You know what? The responses i have gotten lately have surprised me quite a bit, i really don't think anything i have said is controversial or not common knowledge. I mean, if i say the words white people together in a sentence i seem to get angry responses from the same people who never get upset when someone makes generalized statements about black people. I have really been finding that strange and a bit amusing. Imagine if those same folks were Black and had to hear the shit we hear all the time about Black people. Good god, the crying that would ensue would make enough tears to fill the Grand Canyon. Do they not realize that we go through hearing whats wrong with Black families, and Black youth, and black fathers, and black crime?

I think i need to write an article a week on White crime and White failings just to ease them into everyone else's reality. Help the more sensitive ones develop my Rhinoceros skin.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #190)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 06:30 PM

329. No, nothing you've said is controversial. NOTHING you've said is new

Black people have been making these comments for DECADES. Which makes the responses you get all the more hysterical from this "worldly" group of "liberals."

I am so sorry that you had to endure them. This place is a lost cause. We need to look elsewhere.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #12)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 08:28 AM

220. Blame the victim. You are a piece of work.

Obama's issues have ZERO to do with what race/gender I, or anyone, happen to be. They are HIS issues.

They have to do with continued war, drone strikes, suppression of whistle-blowers, Gitmo, mass (likely unconstitutional) surveillance, protection of war criminals from justice, billions to bankers and MIC while the general citizen falls further and further behind. WTF does someone's race and gender have one fucking iota to do with those things!

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Response to PowerToThePeople (Reply #220)


Response to PowerToThePeople (Reply #220)


Response to bravenak (Reply #226)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 08:41 AM

227. BS

bravenak
226. By the fucking way....

View profile
Older white men are not fucking victims in our society.



We are ALL, the whole fucking world, victims of continued wars, mass surveillance, and the expansion of capitalist empire.

By the way, your post comes off as very racist.

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Response to PowerToThePeople (Reply #227)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 08:46 AM

228. Bullshit. Our society caters to the older white male.

Those same people you call victims vote for those wars, and love the shit out of capatalism. Take a look at the Tea Party, what do you see? Those VICTIMS astroturfing for corporations and voting in politicians who hate Black people, call hispanics wetbacks, want to limit womens rights and hate immigrants. They are NOT victims.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #228)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 08:50 AM

229. That's funny

bravenak (4,267 posts)
228. Bullshit. Our society caters to the older white male.

Those same people you call victims vote for those wars, and love the shit out of capatalism. Take a look at the Tea Party, what do you see? Those VICTIMS astroturfing for corporations and voting in politicians who hate Black people, call hispanics wetbacks, want to limit womens rights and hate immigrants. They are NOT victims.



I happen to be an older white male and I think there are numerous other older white males to be found on an off of this board who have never in their lives done any of what you claim above.

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Response to PowerToThePeople (Reply #229)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 08:56 AM

234. So this is the not all men thing?

Carry on.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #234)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 08:58 AM

236. I do not

understand the meaning of this reply. Can you clarify? All men thing?

bravenak
234. So this is the not all men thing?

View profile
Carry on.

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Response to PowerToThePeople (Reply #236)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 10:21 AM

259. It's a reference to ...

the defense the dominant group individuals use to ignore what the dominant group as a class do/has done. E.g., "Yes, I know that men are capable of rape; but I've never raped, so women (and men that understand) shouldn't talk about the rape culture."

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Response to PowerToThePeople (Reply #227)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 10:13 AM

257. Well that true ...

you are victims ... just not the victims of, and in some cases are supportive of, the concerns of the most reliable segment of the Democratic base.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #255)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 01:01 PM

291. I certainly do not agree with his/her statement

I could be called middle aged white man, even though I do not think I am that old yet. I have been against income inequality and Marxist leaning since the Clinton days. The 99 crash showed me the extent of Corporate corruption and theft of middle class savings by the 1% class without repercussions. Could I have learned the same lesson in the savings and loan crisis of the 80s? Sure, if I had been old enough to understand at the time. I was not.

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Response to PowerToThePeople (Reply #291)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 03:56 PM

311. Perhaps it's noteworthy to point out ...

That your ignoring 2/3 of her post speaks volumes in proving her point.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #311)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 03:59 PM

313. please explain

what 2/3 I am ignoring?

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Response to PowerToThePeople (Reply #313)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 04:00 PM

315. re - read her post and your response. eom.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #315)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 04:08 PM

317. Still don't see it

P1 - libertarianism vs collective rights. I am a Socialist, collective rights trump individual rights.
P2 - Sudden economic obsession. This I addressed specifically with my post.
P3 -3rd way, "forward" looking bs. Criminals and those who have done wrong need to pay the price. No dancing around trying to be nice and PC. Bankers and war criminals need to be held accountable.

Ok, addressed all 3 paragraphs specifically for you.

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Response to PowerToThePeople (Reply #317)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 04:27 PM

319. Okay. eom.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #12)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 05:07 PM

320. That is some ugly fucking shit you just wrote.

But then again, I've been reading your diatribe ever since you got here so it shouldn't surprise me. Please, do carry on with your hatefest of all things white and all things "old." I'm intrigued. Well, not really, I can read the same shit on any hate site, just substitute minority/women with old and white and it's the same scapegoating.

You're young. Maybe you'll wise up, maybe you won't. It's entirely up to you.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #12)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 05:44 PM

323. Oh, bullshit.

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Response to Hissyspit (Reply #323)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 06:27 PM

328. DU is not representative of the Democratic Party

Poll after poll on DU has shown that people here are overwhelmingly white and older.

If you look at the actual makeup of the Democratic Party, there are a large percentage of minorities, women and young people.

On a percentage basis, there are very few African American posters on DU. But if you look at real life, blacks make up a pretty sizable portion of the party and also tend to turn out more on election day.

Nope. Not bullshit at all.

But enjoy your bubble.

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Response to Cali_Democrat (Reply #328)

Sun Jun 8, 2014, 12:01 AM

356. And you are not representative of the Democratic Party.

I didn't say a thing about being representative of the Democratic Party.

Yeah, my bubble.

Full of people who have been right about pretty much everything.

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Response to Hissyspit (Reply #356)

Sun Jun 8, 2014, 12:25 AM

357. Classic example of what bravenak is talking about:

And you are not representative of the Democratic Party.

I didn't say a thing about being representative of the Democratic Party.

Yeah, my bubble.

Full of people who have been right about pretty much everything.


You're essentially residing in a bubble made up of older white people are then you proceed to lecture others about what it means to be a Dem and how you're "right about pretty much everything".

It's really quite pathetic.

You were responding to bravenak and you totally missed her point.

DU is indeed a bubble if you look at the facts.

This place is overwhelmingly white and older. It does not represent the Democratic Party as a whole and the numbers bare that out. You may think it does, but it doesn't.

Haven't you wondered why, relatively speaking, there are so few African Americans posting on DU even though African Americans make up a sizable portion of the party and are more motivated to vote than others?

Enjoy your bubble.

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Response to Cali_Democrat (Reply #357)

Sun Jun 8, 2014, 04:03 AM

359. I never said it wasn't a bubble.

What the hell is your point? There's all kinds of BS in that post besides maybe DU skews older and white.

Nothing pathetic about being right.

And don't tell me what I think.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #12)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 07:10 PM

333. Please link to a post at a republican board that complains the president is too conservative

Or that he doesn't fight the right wingers enough. Because that's the only two complaints I see at DU.

And stop reading right-wing boards.

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 09:52 PM

13. I've got your back...

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Response to Earth_First (Reply #13)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 02:53 AM

172. LOL~ Thank you Earth_First! nt

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 09:54 PM

14. I don't understand your question.

If someone wants to praise Obama, they are free to do so. No one is stopping them.

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Response to scarletwoman (Reply #14)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 10:32 PM

43. I agree that's the way it

should be. But it's not always...this post was in response to this one...
\
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025055646


Sigh, and hi! I hope all is well in your world.

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 09:59 PM

17. Right after at least 7 OPs slamming him, but before the next 12 OPs slamming him

you're allowed to put up a post praising something he did, with the postscript that see? you don't hate the President and you voted for him twice.

Anything else makes you a fanboi/grrl or something.

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 10:01 PM

19. Good start, but we can do better.

Imagine if NASA had launched Alan Sheppard into space, and then said, OK, that's enough, everyone relax. Or if Kennedy had never made the Moon the priority. We finished up Mercury, and we just quit. We stopped there, and never continued on to the Moon.

I feel like we're in the days of Mercury. We're doing some good things, but we can do much better. I want the grand dreams, I want the goal that seems impossible. We are doing good with Mercury, but we can go farther, we can do more. We can go into Gemini. We can go for Apollo. While NASA was pounding each other on the back when Alan Sheppard stepped onto the Carrier after his first flight to the edge of space, they were not resting, they were already planning Gus Grissom's flight, and all the other flights of the Mercury era.

When you achieve something great, it can be the end of a journey, or the beginning of the next journey. NASA didn't end with Apollo when the Apollo 17 capsule splashed down. They did skylab. They did the shuttle. They designed things that are still working today despite all odds to the contrary. Voyager I and II are still moving out of the solar system, the fastest man made objects ever. Because we didn't stand still and quit when it looked like we had accomplished something. There was more to discover, more to do.

Yes Praise the President for his accomplishments by all means. But we shouldn't stop there and say well, we've done enough, time to coast. We should be moving forward, and we should be looking for the next accomplishment, the next challenge. When you stop reaching for the stars, you will never reach the stars. When you stop dreaming of a better world, the world will never get better.

What I take issue with is the Government. The President is the Chief Executive, and directs the general policy and general direction of the Government. Either the DEA is doing what the President believes they should by harassing Marijuana users, or they are not in compliance, and someone who is in charge should be fired. Either the NSA/FBI/CIA/DHS is doing what President Obama wants, or they are not. Again, if they are not, someone should be fired. Yes, he's done some good things, but he only has eight years maximum to accomplish as must as possible. Every day, every single day you have to hit the ground running and striving for more. You have to wake up and know that today, you are going to do everything possible to make this nation, this world, a better place. You are going to keep from making the mistakes of the past, and you are going to end that run knowing you did everything possible and walking from that office with no regrets.

I think in about five years, when we sit down and read our new copies of the President's thoughts on the time he had in the Oval Office, we'll be reading lots of regrets. I think he will blame Congress, and they should get some blame. But the way the Government operates is up to him, and those they appoint.

A friend asked me not too long ago what I would do if I was the President, on the first day. I told him I'd wear out several pens signing pardons for all the people convicted of marijuana in federal courts. The President has that power, and has used it sparingly. Why? Because he doesn't think that people should be pardoned? Or is it because he's afraid of what the Republicans will say about it. Let them try and impeach him for using the power that the Constitution has granted him. He's already polling below 50% on approval, he might as well do what is right, because being careful not to offend is getting him, and us, nowhere.

So yes, I admire and appreciate what the President has done. But I'm like Janet Jackson, what have you done for me lately? I want more, and next week I'm going to want even more. Because there is a lot yet to be done, and Alan Sheppard was only the beginning.

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Response to Savannahmann (Reply #19)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 10:11 PM

27. +1

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 10:01 PM

20. He is an elected official. Not your prom date. And not all things are the GOPs fault.

That is simply scapegoating problems on the enemy Other. It is an illusion. Of course the GOP is a massive problem in this nation. But they are not solely responsible for all of the issues.

I rewarded President Obama's work by voting for him. That is the reward system for an elected official. I do not cheerlead for him. And I will criticize his administration whenever I deem it necessary and just, and not worry about whether my criticism makes him feel bad or makes you feel bad.

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Response to Gravitycollapse (Reply #20)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 10:03 PM

23. "prom date". Damn, that's insulting. And in the Reality Based Community-

politics involves an opposition and requires pragmatism.

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Response to Gravitycollapse (Reply #20)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 11:02 PM

61. Criticize all you wish. That is not the issue.

You don't stop the support when you leave the voting booth. You do not just walk away.

The GOP is at fault during this Presidents term and much lays heavily on there shoulders.

Whine of the Day, from Mitch McConnell

The single most important thing we want to achieve is for President Obama to be a one-term president.

-Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, quoted in National Journal, November 4, 2010


http://www.newrepublic.com/blog/jonathan-cohn/96591/mcconnell-villain-who-me

As for your prom date quip! That is sexist.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #61)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 12:07 AM

110. When you preface the apology for a political leader with the idea that he is just a man, imperfect

You have already lost because those are things which quite literally go without saying.

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Response to Gravitycollapse (Reply #20)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 11:09 PM

68. "prom date": insulting...and accurate.

Rock on, Gravitycollapse. Elected officials will always do better when we treat them as, well, elected officials, and not as objects of affection.

When it comes to Obama (or any politician), I'm not that interested in soaring quotes, or stories about what a wonderful human being we have here. Cults of personality are always dangerous!

It's just like when I hire a plumber. I know there are obstacles in the job. But given the obstacles, I want results.

With Obama, it's been a mixed bag. The ACA was a noble attempt, and it might yet work out well. But I'm not seeing much upward mobility in the working class.

Who knows how things would have turned out had we praised the Democratic leadership less, and demanded more. Remember, for two years we had the Presidency, and the House, and a filibuster-proof Senate.

Yep, I'm a dreamer.


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Response to Shemp Howard (Reply #68)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 02:04 AM

163. You are indeed a dreamer!

Democrats Had a Filibuster-Proof Senate Majority for 72 Days During President Obama’s First Term



I first shared this information in October, 2010 in a post I called “Occupy the Media” (no longer available) then later in a post entitled President Obama DID NOT Control Congress for Two Years.

Without fail, everyday I am either challenged or questioned about the information I presented. So in an attempt to further clarify the information and hopefully address the many questions, I am presenting it once again. More importantly, commenters, journalists, reporters, political pundits, Republicans and even some Democrats continue to repeat the same falsehood:

“The president controlled Congress for two years, and had the opportunity to do everything he wanted to do.”

The statement simply isn’t true.
How did so many people get this so wrong?

I’m guessing that after the election, the media made such a big deal of the fact that Democrats had captured the majority in the Senate (obviously referring to a 51+ majority), I think people became confused. Just as many things changed once Barack Obama became elected, the “new filibuster-proof majority” totaled 60 and somehow, the fact Democrats only captured 59 seats got lost in all the excitement.

Everyone also apparently forgot that Ted Kennedy Collapsed At The Obama Inaugural Luncheon and returned to his home in Massachusetts to recuperate. While the Minnesota seat remained outstanding, because the election results were contested.


Oh Please Read More: http://www.winningprogressive.org/democrats-had-a-filibuster-proof-senate-majority-for-72-days-during-president-obamas-first-term

Facts are your friend Shemp.

As for...

"prom date": insulting...and accurate.


Nice prom reference...WOW!
Insulting and Accurate.
Sexist and trying badly to divert the conversation. Nice try! You just lost the power play with false information about a
a filibuster-proof Senate.
your bad and then toss in a little sexism for the widdle female that could not possibly know shit!

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #163)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 10:39 PM

343. I've been pondering your accusation of sexism...

And have decided that what I said was not meant at all to be sexist but could be construed to be that way especially by someone like you who has demonstrated more than once in this thread that false accusations of racism and sexism are not below you. So let me reword my point so you get it...

President Obama is not your buddy. He isn't your friend or pal. The relationship you possess with him is not similar in any regard to someone you are nice to uncritically.

He is an elected official and should be treated as such.

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Response to Shemp Howard (Reply #68)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 10:40 AM

262. Yep, you are a dreamer ...

Remember, for two years we had the Presidency, and the House, and a filibuster-proof Senate.


There never was two MONTH, let alone, two years that Democrats had the Presidency, and the House, and a filibuster-proof Senate.

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Response to Doctor_J (Reply #334)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 10:42 PM

344. There is not a single doubt in my mind that the creepy adoration will continue.

Fortunately, that creepy adoration is restricted to a small proportion of party and DU members.

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 10:02 PM

22. No.

Well maybe not, because here on DU it is only Progressive to bash the President over the head day after day.

Not true. There is plenty of support for the president at DU. And there are plenty of comments that do not involve bashing the president.

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 10:11 PM

28. when Obama does something that I agree with, praise.

when he does something I disagree with, no praise.

Duh.

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Response to Warren Stupidity (Reply #28)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 10:39 PM

49. K&R! n/t

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Response to Warren Stupidity (Reply #28)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 10:40 PM

50. It's on him to do more things that deserve praise,

and fewer things that deserve criticism.

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 10:12 PM

29. Not a comparison but I even praised George W. Bush once

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Response to think (Reply #29)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 11:28 PM

79. I did once too.

For the creation of a marine preserve near Hawaii, iirc.

But W still rates as the all-time worst President ever in my books.

As to Obama, I think he gets 'underpraised' for the good things he does do, because many of the positive things are done 'under the radar', via executive orders and regulations that tend not to hit the media. His more problematic actions (which are all basically continuations or expansions of Republican policy, such as drones and domestic spying) lend themselves more to 'if it bleeds it leads' media attention.

So basically, I criticize admin policies that are too far to the right, or are the 'political sausage' of Dem left ideas and RW lunacy, and praise when we actually get unalloyed actual Dem policy. (Which, as noted above, basically has to be done by executive branch powers only, since anything legislative is going to include RW poison pills if it even passes at all.)

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 10:12 PM

30. ...

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 10:12 PM

31. When Obama does something praise worthy, I'll let ya know

 

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 10:17 PM

33. Way back

in the first couple of years of Obama's presidency I posted the question:

When did "Yes We Can" become "Yes HE Can and Why Hasn't He?"

I got pummeled, there was mention of a pony, yada yada.



Maybe it's time to ask the question again, eh?

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Response to madamesilverspurs (Reply #33)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 11:00 PM

57. Absolutely. nt

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 10:17 PM

35. When he deserves it.

Just as with any Democratic POLITICIAN.

When he does something non praiseworthy, like spying on us, no praise forthcoming.

Hope that clears it up for ya!

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 10:21 PM

38. If his supporters didn't smear his critics so much it would be easier to priase him.

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Response to Vattel (Reply #38)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 12:18 AM

122. +1000

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Response to Vattel (Reply #38)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 12:20 AM

126. +1 nt

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Response to Vattel (Reply #38)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 01:43 AM

159. yes

The supporters have not done him any favors with the tee-heeing and ROFL and snark and potty mouthing and orchestrated attacks on some members.

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Response to grasswire (Reply #159)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 09:05 AM

237. And that is the point that this group completely misses.

It's not that I don't like the President. I don't like the never ending nasty whining snark that they consistently peddle.

And OP's like this are prime examples.

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 10:23 PM

39. You are free to praise him whenever you want.

Others are free to agree or disagree with your praise.

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Response to City Lights (Reply #39)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 11:01 PM

58. +100

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Response to City Lights (Reply #39)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 12:23 AM

128. the poor thangs

crying because someone dares to find fault with their idol

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Response to Skittles (Reply #128)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 03:43 AM

188. I know...some here jump all over when I mention their idols talk more like Libertarians.

Truth is we are observant here on DU.


Tikki

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Response to Tikki (Reply #188)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 04:43 AM

191. guess what? even Libertarians are right sometimes

just like presidents are wrong sometimes.......this is what sets critical thinkers apart from the Tiger Beat club

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Response to Skittles (Reply #191)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 11:29 AM

272. You just caused a huge amount of cognitive dissonance among the black or white mindsets

 

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Response to City Lights (Reply #39)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 07:19 PM

336. That's pretty much the entire gist of it right there.

You might think it obvious, but apparently it is not.

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 10:26 PM

40. I'll praise Obama but I don't see his performane very rosily on the big things

Okay, maybe single-payer universal health coverage was a step too far. But why the hell did he have to negate the little compromise step of a public option? My God, that would have been popular if that had been sold for what it is -- a way that anyone has the option to get out from the thumb of Big Insurance by buying into Medicare at an earlier age ...Or stay with their insurers if they preferred.

Instead Obama took us a step in the wrong direction. He further embedded private insurance into the system. He did what Romney did and put in place a system that rewards the insurance companies and forces us to buy their still-crappy products whether we want to or not.

Sure it has some good things in it. But they don't compare to the damage that has been done to the effort to really reform the healthcare system. Gave a fresh coat of paint to a rotting house and said "Okay that fixes it. We don't need to change anything basic in the foundation."

Too many things like that on issues of importance for me to feel too enthusiastic, even though I like the guy.



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Response to Armstead (Reply #40)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 11:05 PM

62. Obama never ran on a public option. Obama never once in the entire time he was campaigning for

President promised a public option. Guess what, neither did Jimmy Carter or Clinton. The public option is available at the state level and it looks like Vermont or New Hampshire will be adopting it in the next couple of years. You can disagree with the ACA and disagree with Obama for pushing to pass it, but he gave us what he promised. He said he liked single payer but with the system we have now it was too much of a leap. Does it occur to anyone here that the public option candidate didn't get elected? That is what chaps my ass. A non-single payer candidate is the one who gets elected and everyone is pissed when he does what he said he would do (something Nixon, Carter and Clinton couldn't deliver?)

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Response to okaawhatever (Reply #62)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 09:32 AM

244. He did not run on what he ultimately supported

He said he supported healthcare reform and, in his frequent pattern allowed people to fill in the blanks. He did not say "I will bring you Romneycare in which you are forced to buy private insurance, but we're not really going to control the market or prices. We'll do a few things that allow more people to buy crappy insurance, but we're going yo continue to let tye insurance companies gouge you financially -- now we're going to force you to be gouged."

I'm not sure he would have done as well if he had run on things he has actually done, instead of the things he kinda hinted he might do.

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Response to okaawhatever (Reply #62)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 06:38 PM

330. Either you are lying, or this guy in the video is lying, because he said Obama did!



In fact it is well known that he campaigned several times on including a public option.

Lying about this is no way to promote anyone, I mean, if someone's supporter goes around lying about what he says I begin to wonder why lies are needed for said support and maybe such support is wrong.

Stick to the truth if you want to convince anyone of anything, it works better.

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 10:35 PM

45. And apparently

Last edited Sat Jun 7, 2014, 12:49 AM - Edit history (2)

"Well maybe not, because here on DU it is only Progressive to bash the President over the head day after day."

ignoring social issues. Issues related to gender, race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, etc. don't exist as all of society's problems are due to class only. Anyone who mentions these issues is either trying to deflect, or is an "extremist". Never mind that folks are basically talking about issues that they relate to on a first-hand basis.
You can Google the thread, but there was one poster very recently who whined about BOG regulars supposedly never posting in any economic threads. However, I post and read sometimes on those threads. The threads from ProSense related to economic policy have been especially informative. I have also seen you, Cha, freshwest, stevenleser, and others being active in those type of threads. Yet some of the good news threads (and even threads where prominent progressives such as Warren and Sanders praise O) don't get nearly as much play around DU as the flame-baiting hair-on-fire threads about Obama being a centerrightmoderaterepublicanfascistselloutusedcarsellingauthoritarian. Nope.
Again, I almost forget sometimes that this is a site for Democrats, and I wonder if the TOS is still being enforced.

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Response to Jamaal510 (Reply #45)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 11:07 PM

65. +100 nt

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Response to Jamaal510 (Reply #45)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 11:26 PM

77. +2000

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Response to Jamaal510 (Reply #45)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 11:59 AM

275. Well said, Jamaal!

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 10:35 PM

46. Praise him all you want. But people who are less impressed get to say how they feel too.

You can't make other people be as effusive in their praise as you are unless you convince them. Telling them to shut up means your argument sucks.

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 10:44 PM

54. R#18 & K for, haha and thanks!1 n/t

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 11:02 PM

59. Do what is necessary

Praise when it is due, condemn as needed.

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 11:07 PM

63. K&R

This can't be repeated often enough.

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 11:07 PM

66. I agree!

It's "trending" to bash the President, but when I look at what he has accomplished in spite of the opposition of a united GOP and the half-hearted support of a Democratic Party that seemingly never heard of party discipline, I am amazed and grateful. This man's contributions to the people of the US and to mankind will not stop when he leaves office. In fact, he has just begun.

The "President bashing" among the progressives, i.e. Democrats, is a perfect example of why a handful of extreme right wingers, controlling the Grand Old Party from the rear, has gained the power to bring down the country. And their power will only increase as long as so many Dems continue to work for their rich donors instead of the people they represent.

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 11:08 PM

67. Big time K & R SheShe. nt

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 11:16 PM

71. K & R Very good post sheshe2

I give Obama praise for not allowing the wild talking points to take this nation into every country who has a hiccup. He allows those nations to work on their issues without US military inference.

I like the fact he can be in the middle of a really big operation and yet remain cool and calm. He doesn't always run at the first hint of criticism and start whining a out how hard of a job he is doing.

I really have praise for at least beginning to get a health care plan for our citizens. It is long overdue. For those who may not have a preexisting condition, just wait around long enough and it will come.

At this point in time, I don't care a out his race or gender, through all of this he has been and I look forward to him continuing to be a great president. He has had lots of cleaning to do after the Bush years and his progress sure hasn't been handed to him. I have supported him in his election and will continue to support him. For the whiners, get over it, find the positive a d it will override your whining with winning.

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 11:19 PM

72. Good post, she, good post. Hope you've got your baking soda handy for the acid replies.

Wearying, isn't it? I don't know how on Earth President Obama stands the continual shit storm coming from the Republicans -- and all I can say at this point, as someone who has been a member of DU since 2002, thanks the gods DU is not the real world.

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Response to Hekate (Reply #72)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 11:24 PM

74. Baking soda. Check!

Weary. Check! DU, not the real world. Check!

Friends like you. Check!

I'm covered Hekate. Thank you.



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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 11:24 PM

75. Ha! Now some of you guys are going after the old folks here? We are in the way?

That is just what some of the comments are saying. That is definitely a form of discrimination in itself. The OP was not about that, but many of the comments are.

Wow. That is a new thing here. The criticism of the elderly. Now I think I have seen everything.

And a juror agreed that "old white men" are in the way of progress. I am not a man, but I find that probably refers to me also.

Actually some of us old folks are pretty progressive and inclusive.

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Response to madfloridian (Reply #75)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 11:49 PM

90. No, its how they roll

whenever there is a semi-positive thread about Pres O, anything is subject. Older Americans, the ones who don't toll the lines I guess must be addressed.

WOW, senior, older, aged Americans who like Pres O alongwith with millions of young and middle aged. On my.

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Response to Iliyah (Reply #90)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 11:54 PM

93. Well, this thread was hijacked from Sheshe by those being insulting to seniors.

And accusing them of standing in the way of progress. It is a ridiculous thing, and even more ridiculous is a juror putting in words that they agree.

Many of the most progressive and liberal people here are the older people, seniors, whatever. In fact we are often the ones being critical of some of the more conservative policies of Obama.

I think a message was sent tonight here, that now there is ageism going on.

There should be no place here for that. There should be no place here for any kind of discrimination at all. And especially a juror should not be saying that.

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 11:34 PM

83. Who's stopping you from praising?

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 11:43 PM

86. What do you call prejudice against old people as shown in this forum...

and by a juror just now? I don't know the technical name for it, can anyone help me on that?

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Response to madfloridian (Reply #86)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 11:50 PM

91. sure I can help you: Obama Hates Old People!

 

Thanks , Obama!

(from the young people)

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Response to madfloridian (Reply #86)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 02:02 AM

162. Obama played the age card early on when speaking of SS ...

appears he bought into the lie that boomers are/will be the cause of SS demise ... you know that ratio problem. It had nothing to do with the loans from SS to the general fund.







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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 11:47 PM

88. When he stands up and does what is right just as in the instances your post describes.

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 11:49 PM

89. K&R and thankyou sheshe.

 

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 11:51 PM

92. When they do something right because it is the right thing to do

Not because there is advantage in it. Double when it costs them

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Response to on point (Reply #92)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 12:03 AM

103. Like bringing home Bowe B

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Fri Jun 6, 2014, 11:58 PM

97. First of all, I didn't expect much from him, so I am not disappointed.

"Let's look forward." That was his first mistake. Secrecy and N.S.A.? -- and so forth....

Then there are times when I am really proud that he's our guy.

I guess it goes back to a variation of an old quote,

"My country, right or wrong. If right, to be kept right. And if wrong, to be set right." Carl Schurz.

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 12:00 AM

100. When he sends Dubya and Cheney to the Hague.

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 12:05 AM

106. D does not equal Obama underground. that's what the BOG is for nt

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 12:08 AM

112. K & R

thank you.

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 12:15 AM

118. bit of a double standard there

You can't credit him for the bills that do pass congress but only blame congress for the ones that don't.

As it was, it was pelosi and other house democrats such as Louise slaughter that came up with the reconciliation strategy that delivered a viable bill. Obama told pelosi just to pass the senate bill, luckily for all concerned she was a better congressional tactician than he was.

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 12:17 AM

120. If pragmatism is ones thing then President Obama is hands down the best POTUS ever.

That actually is what I like best about his governance, even against policy positions and actions I disagree with I believe he is a steady, just do the job kind of guy and I'm cool with that.

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 12:19 AM

123. Posting while elderly. Should we continue?

What do you think? Are we standing in the way of progress?

It must be the okay thing here now, as it is permitted by jury.

SO, shall I continue to post.

Yes, I think so.

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 12:23 AM

129. I do believe you are serious

and fair enough. For those of us who have been disappointed, you are not the one with whom we might choose to have a meaningful discussion on the subject.

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 12:29 AM

138. I was one of those

who was disappointed he caved on the public option. But I also recognize the constant obstructionism he's been up against. Illinois is thankfully one of the states that has the expanded Medicare, just in time as I fell and fractured my arm a couple of months ago. Very grateful I was able to see a doctor.

But some of the criticism against Obama has also been aimed at the Clintons. I think we need to recognize it's not just about any one person or party. Our entire political system is screwed up. And yes, we have to speak up. Too many don't, or don't vote which is how oligarchs like the Kochs manage to get away with screwing it up even further. We can support a president or a senator or congressman/woman but should never do so blindly. That's what the right-wing crazies do.

Barack Obama is human like the rest of us and makes mistakes. A big difference between him and the last guy (idiot) who had his job is that Obama can recognize and own up to his mistakes. Bush and Cheney are still trying to pretend they did nothing wrong. Has he make decisions I disagree with? Yes. Do I think we're better off with him rather than the alternatives of McCain or Romney? Also yes.

In the end, history will make it's judgment. And history will be a lot kinder to Obama than Bush. Against constant obstructionism and the worst do-nothing congress in history, Obama has managed to pull this country back from a recession that was second only to the great depression. He passed healthcare. Many before him have tried and failed on that one. He got Bin Laden after the previous administration let him go (I think they wanted to let him go, a free Bin Laden was a great rallying cry). The Lilly Ledbetter Act, the first president to come out in favor of gay marriage, ending the war in Iraq . . . The list goes on.

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/magazine/march_april_2012/features/obamas_top_50_accomplishments035755.php

And oh yes, the first African American president has managed to face the obvious, not-so-thinly-veiled-racism hurled at him since he entered the White House with great civility. And as an Illinois resident I'm proud to say I got to vote for him as my senator before he ever ran for president.

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 12:41 AM

142. When he does something that I think is good for the country.

I will usually say something positive about it, there is usually a thread about it in GD.

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Response to sheshe2 (Original post)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 12:47 AM

143. how can anyone evaluate obama or any rep if they have no clue?

no clue as to what rw radio blasts out every day.

staying with parents and listening to one show after another wonder and wax eloquently how the administration could be so tone deaf to what was happening out in the country re bergdahl. the brightest minds on PBS!

YOU FUCKING IDIOTS! what's happening is 1200 radio stations and their national and local blowhards, the same ones who sold the afghanistan and iraq, and perhaps iran in the future, with a hell of a lot of other shit like benghazi, ARE GETTING A FREE SPEECH FREE RIDE because it hurts the left's sensitive heads to listen to it, and music is so much more fun while blogging!

those radio stations reach 50 mil a week with think tank scripted bullshit to create a buzz madison avenue would wither under, and these blockheads in the media give the 10% teabagging hordes legitimacy because they ARE LOUD!

to all you naive, new, and suddenly less apathetic voters who expected a black man to march into the white billionaires' house and kick ass- wake up and pay attention.

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Response to certainot (Reply #143)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 01:42 AM

158. The color of one's skin Never Ever entered my mind ...

if we want to move forward, as Obama said when dismissed the Bush crimes so quickly! ....then we need to stop playing the race card!!!

Geithner, Summers etc. were clues from the get go and that had nothing to do with the color of one's skin.

I wanted someone with courage to tackle the tough issues, not invite the benefactors of the for profit HC industry to closed door meetings at the WH while closing the door to doctors who are on the front lines.





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Response to slipslidingaway (Reply #158)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 02:06 AM

164. bullshit. the entire left spectrum had no fucking clue and as long as

those think tanks were pumping whatever they wanted out of those 1200 radio stations the right could take free potshots at obama and everything he did and dominate messaging. the left NEVER GOT HIS BACK! it is naive to the max to think he could have gone after the bushes or would not have wasted a shitload of time doing so. have you been paying attention? was he going to put krugman in at treasury? who would know the inside tricks and where the money was hidden? in an emergency? to settle the markets? krugman? in a real democracy maybe, but not in this one- until americans fix the radio.

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Response to certainot (Reply #164)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 02:39 AM

169. Sorry but that is just BS, many of us were not buying into to BS from the right ...