RadFem Joe Biden

[BainsBane]

"Radfem" has become a catch all phrase to describe feminists some members on DU don't like. Its use generally bears no ideological distinction. However in recent days a couple of members have offered their definitions of what these awful radfems are: They are "loud" and "like all extremists, hog the publicity." Another member insisted they "beat people over the head with rape culture."

Enter the Vice President of these United States, Joe Biden. Like a good "radfem," Joe is loud and talking about rape culture.

WASHINGTON, April 29 (Reuters) - U.S. Vice President Joe Biden used some dramatic anecdotes on Tuesday to urge colleges and universities to do more to prevent rape and sexual assault on their campuses.

Unveiling a White House report with recommendations on what campuses can do to address the issue, Biden said frequently the assailant is someone known to the victim. He told an example involving a young woman who was pulled into a dorm room and raped by a man that she knew.

"No man has a right under any circumstance other than self defense, no man has a right ever to raise his hand to a woman, period, end of story. It is assault, if they do," said Biden. "To get that through to our daughters, and our sisters, and our friends, is still such a culturally difficult thing to do."

"I can't say often enough it doesn't matter what coat she was wearing, whether she drank too much, whether it was in the back of a car, in her room, on the street, it does not matter. It does not matter if she initially said yes and changed her mind and said no. No means no, wherever it is stated," said Biden.

Video at link: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/29/joe-biden-sexual-assault_n_5235811.html

The federal government has authority over this matter through Title IX of the Civil Rights Act. Rape is indeed a Civil Rights issue, and colleges and universities have been investigated and sanctioned for violating students' (largely but not exclusively women) civil rights by failing to prevent and adequately investigate sexual assault.

Thank you, Vice President Biden, for discussing issues some here insist are not "political" or important enough to merit public attention.

[ucrdem]

1. K'n'R

Who'd a thunk it?

[The Straight Story]

2. Some folks miss meta (nt)

[AverageJoe90]

3. I don't consider Joe Biden to be a "radfem" at all, TBH.

The VPOTUS is merely stating what most liberals (and many Americans in general, really) actually believe in regards to how women should be treated(especially the "not raising a hand" part, but all that other stuff, too.). In fact, I don't think you'll find too many here who'll argue against that.

[BainsBane]

4. You missed the point

I don't consider myself to be a radfem either. The definition people assign is meaningless. What they insist is extremist is pretty mainstream. Why is it okay for Biden to talk about cultural factors leading to rape and not me or others on DU? The point is it is not the feminists or the "white privilege pushers" who are at odds with the party.

[AverageJoe90]

5. "What they insist is extremist is pretty mainstream." And you missed my point.

The problem is, most of the complaining being done, isn't about stuff like what Mr. Biden said.....not at all. It's more radical stuff like "all men are to blame for rape culture", and more extreme stuff like that.

[BainsBane]

8. I'd like to see lots of links showing

people saying "all men are to blame for rape culture." I know I myself have never said that, so I couldn't possibly be criticized for it. Yet I am criticized continually, as you have done here. You decided this was flamebait, not Kate Upton's boobs in space, not the piece about the starlet who doesn't consider herself a feminist, not the OP by the guy who said he wanted nothing to do with women. But this, connecting the VP and Title IX to recent discussions on DU about rape and 'radfems," constitutes flamebait?

[TDale313]

9. ...

I don't know anyone who has been saying all men are to blame for rape culture.

[BainsBane]

17. Any luck with those links?

I'm anxious to see who all these radical posters are.

[TDale313]

7. Agreed. Much of what we're being told is "radical"

isn't extreme at all. And many of the ideas that some claim are so controversial just aren't that hard to see or understand.

[BainsBane]

10. Radical defined

Voices of feminists and people of color, particularly in regard to subjects that certain segments of the population prefer not to hear about.

[TDale313]

11. Also...

That one crackpot from 40 years ago that can be trotted out to point to how really, truly horrible we nasty feminists are and how come we haven't denounced them yet, huh, huh, huh?!?

[BainsBane]

12. Don't forget the Indian PSA

that was a radical attack on all men on the planet.

[AverageJoe90]

19. I honestly didn't feel that way.

To the contrary, I thought it was pretty thoughtful. And as far as I can recall, nobody on here really took any issue with that. So I dunno where you got that from.

[BainsBane]

22. OMG!

Your memory fails you. All hell broke loose. A few insisted we were trying to pathologize male sexuality. They insisted we were accusing ALL men of being predators. It went on and one for over a week. It's never very many that kick up a fuss, but the ones who do take it really badly. In resulted in Sea being insulted again, a vile call out on Christmas eve that was allowed to stand.

[AverageJoe90]

23. "Your memory fails you" Not at all.

I will repeat myself again: I seriously do not recall any complaints against the PSA itself, at least not of the kind that you're talking about.

[BainsBane]

28. It was against the fact feminists had posted the PSA

And what they decided that meant. You can review the threads yourself to try to figure out what exactly they were tripping about. I found it bizarre at the time.

[kcr]

69. Oh, yes they did.

Huge flamewar ensued.

[AverageJoe90]

26. "Voices of feminists and people of color" You seem to imply that every genuine feminist.............

or Person of Color shares your viewpoint. When in fact, not all of them do(but hey, not everyone agrees with me, either). I'm a genuine feminist and I've disagreed with you on quite a bit of things. I also remember a recent conversation you had with a Person of Color on here who disagreed with you(TheKentuckian, if I'm not mistaken) re: white privilege and you essentially brushed him off(it was a while ago, and unfortunately, too long ago to be found in my post history; I did respond to him there, btw).

[bravenak]

33. I also disagree with him on much and more.

And i and most AA's usually agree with the poster you are replying too. I remember what you are talking about and that was the only AA poster you could find who agreed with you.

So when you go waving that in someones face that they disagreed with one AA poster that agrees with you, while all of the rest of us mostly disagree with you, doesn't that tell you something about your worldview?
It's like you think you are right on race issues just because you got one black guy that agrees with you while the rest vehemently disagree with you.
I think it may be called confirmation bias.

[AverageJoe90]

35. "And i and most AA's usually agree with the poster you are replying too." Maybe on DU, or at least..

parts of DU. Perhaps maybe even in your social circle. That's fine.

So when you go waving that in someones face that they disagreed with one AA poster that agrees with you, while all of the rest of us mostly disagree with you, doesn't that tell you something about your worldview?

Not really, to be truthful. At least not the kind of conclusion that you yourself may have reached.

I think it may be called confirmation bias.

Speak for yourself. Speak for yourself.....because honestly, this is perhaps one of the best examples of that!

[bravenak]

36. I do speak for myself. I am telling you the real.

My social circle is diverse but i never forgot where i came from.

You are the best example of what i am talking about. You believe what you want no matter how many people tell you the real. I crack up every time one of these threads appears waiting for more funny stuff to appear on my screen. I enjoy you immensely.

[AverageJoe90]

37. " My social circle is diverse but i never forgot where i came from." Okay. And?

Here's the thing, though: I also look *outside* my social circle as well as inside. That's the main difference between you and I. And I dunno about you, but I've found that doing that has helped me learn more about the world works.

You are the best example of what i am talking about. You believe what you want no matter how many people tell you the real.

I could honestly say the same thing.....but I'd be more accurate. No offense.

I crack up every time one of these threads appears waiting for more funny stuff to appear on my screen. I enjoy you immensely.

Whatever floats your boat, I suppose. I'm just telling it how I've seen it, and I've yet to be proven wrong. So I guess we should call it a day. GObama.

[BainsBane]

40. I most certainly do not imply that

That is an absurd conclusion entirely drawn from your own imagination.

[AverageJoe90]

41. That's how it sounded from the way you wrote it, to be truthful.

But maybe not. I've made mistakes like that myself, so it's no biggie.

[BainsBane]

43. The mistake is yours

You are making spurious charges, and I do consider it a biggie. That post says noting about particular views on issues. It speaks about voices of feminists and people of color. You must imagine me to be an imbecile to conclude I see that as a single point of view.

Bravenak was right about your tactic. You ignore the majority of people of color and find one person who agrees with you. That makes you feel entitled to disregard entirely what the rest of those posters think. Your game is transparent. There is an African American group here that anyone can read if they want to know what those members think and participate as long as they are respectful. That of course depends on actually caring enough to pay attention to the views members of that group hold, which is entirely optional. But to criticize me because I disagreed with a single African American member is pretty fucking shitty. I have a right to agree or disagree with anyone I want. What I don't do is tell them to refrain from posting ideas I find uncomfortable.

[AverageJoe90]

44. I've been to the AA Group. Some good stuff can be found there.

Doesn't mean that I have to agree with every single poster.

Bravenak was right about your tactic. You ignore the majority of people of color and find one person who agrees with you, and that makes you feel entitled to disregard entirely what the rest of those posters think. Your game is transparent.

Nah, you're still wrong, by the way. In fact, I've noticed a serious problem with a few people on here taking a few bad run-ins with individual trolls(or just people who they had a falling out with), and using that as entitlement to make the ridiculous claim that DU overall has a major racism issue or a major sexism issue, etc., when in reality it is only ever a small number of individuals actually doing that. Frankly, if that's not a game, or some sort of confirmation bias, then what is?

[BainsBane]

47. Racism takes many forms

One of which is denial of the problem. In some ways that is the most insidious because denying something makes it impossible to combat. Racism is something people experience. I am not going to tell African American posters that there is no racism on the site when it is they who have experienced racism. They do not perceive it as being simply from trolls but rather endemic, which is why so many have left this site.

Consider this: African Americans are the demographic that most reliably votes Democratic, yet only a handful of AA posters remain. Why do you think that is? When you see posts in the AfAm group talking about how many posters have left because of the racism they experience on DU, do you think they are lying, delusional, overly sensitive? How do you interpret those remarks? And why is it that you feel yourself more qualified to determine what constitutes racism than those who experience it?

I could talk about the racism I witness here, but I am not the target of it. What matters is how members of colors feel about that subject.

[AverageJoe90]

48. And? And?

They do not perceive it as being simply from trolls but rather endemic, which is why so many have left this site.

And is it really?

When you see posts in the AfAm group talking about how many posters have left because of the racism they experience on DU, do you think they are lying, delusional, overly sensitive? How do you interpret those remarks?

I dunno. In all honesty, I have no doubts that it's entirely possible that some of these ex-posters may genuinely have been bullied by trolls. It does happen, nobody's denying that. But, in that same vein, there probably ARE some who were a little oversensitive; that happens, too. There may even have been a few delusional individuals as well; that too can happen. I honestly don't claim to know everything about everybody's personal anecdotes but I do know that

And why is it that you feel yourself more qualified to determine what constitutes racism than those who experience it?

And here's another issue: the rather problematic way you often frame your questions. You make it seem like I claim to be some sort of know it all. I don't. But it honestly requires nothing more than a little critical thinking and common sense to realize that DU genuinely is more civilized overall than many other places on the Internet, even with the occasional trolls who do cause problems(or people who snap).

but I am not the target of it.

And as far as I know, I haven't been either, not on this site, anyway. (though it has unfortunately happened elsewhere on a few occasions).

[BainsBane]

49. You claim no racism exists on DU

aside from trolls. The African American members disagree. and you say they are wrong. To dismiss their concerns about racism, you must have decided you and not they are best able to judge what is and isn't racist. Why is that? What entitles you to decide what they should feel?

How could you possibly be the target of racism when you aren't a person of color? Neither am I. That is my point. We do not experience racism. Duers of color do, and they see it as a problem that extends beyond trolls.

[AverageJoe90]

50. "You claim no racism exists on DU aside from trolls." Didn't quite say that.

It IS pretty rare, though. And this isn't to invalidate the personal experiences of those PoC who *were* genuinely victimized by bullies, by the way(as I may have said earlier). Bullying, whether it's racist, sexist, etc. is unacceptable no matter the background of the victim. All I'm saying is that it's not actually the widespread problem that some believe it is.

To dismiss their concerns about racism, you must have decided you and not they are best able to judge what is and isn't racist.

Not true, B.B.; in fact, I *don't* believe I'm the perfect arbiter of what is racist and what isn't. I am merely operating of of fact-based observation, that's all.

How could you possibly be the target of racism when you aren't a person of color? Neither am I.

As I may have told you, I actually have been on a few occasions. And yes, I understand that structural racism doesn't affect white people. That's not in doubt. But the fact remains that anyone can be racist on a personal level.....something that one would honestly have to be naive at best to deny(but then again, I'll admit I was somewhat guilty of denying that myself a long while back).

And to be truthful, I'm glad to hear that you yourself haven't experienced personal racism. And to be honest, all of the problems I've ever had in that regard have been with idiots on the Internet. But it's not like it doesn't happen to white folks, too. It does. And it does no good for anyone to deny that, regardless of their ethnicity.

[Capt. Obvious]

53. You claim that no one likes their steaks well done

That is a ridiculous assertion to make. If no one liked their steaks well done they why is it an option when you go out to restaurants?

[AverageJoe90]

54. Oh, I get it! =)

(P.S., on a lighter note, I like my steak well done with a side of French fries and a root beer or Coke to wash it all down. )

[Capt. Obvious]

55. I'm sick of people here insisting that there's no such thing as root beer

[BainsBane]

71. You are "merely operating from a fact based observation"

Assumes that facts and truth are based on your perception rather than those who experience racism. That is a Positivist point of view that pretends your worldview--that bound by your experiences, including race, class, and gender--is immune from bias while the rest of us fail to be factual because our perceptions and experiences vary. It is not fact. It is your perception based on who you are. And you again deny the validity of the experiences of those members of color who have said they have many times witnessed and been the target of racism on this site.

Your reference to bullying suggests a limited understanding of what racism is, as though it included only willful and deliberate name calling and persecution of people based on skin color. Racism is manifested in a myriad of ways, from comments about how ugly natural African American hair is, to insisting that African Americans should be "honored" by stereotypical meals of fried chicken and watermelon, to telling a AA member that she is "out of her element" in entering a discussion on race (seriously, that one was hardly subtle), to the continual whining about the mere mention of white privilege. One thread on white privilege triggers dozens of threads complaining that anyone had the audacity to mention the subject. Those are all part of a climate that communicates to members of color that their views are unwelcome, that they should keep issues that concern them away from the view of the more important white people who feel they and only they determine what is worthy of discussion and what constitutes "flamebait." The reason that many members of the AA group and those of us labeled as "radfems" agree on so many issues is that we recognize that we are subject to similar attitudes and treatment.

[etherealtruth]

6. His message is timely, needed, and much appreciated

If this is radical feminism the world need a lot more of it!

[BainsBane]

15. Indeed. Civil Rights

even for rape victims. In no way should that be considered radical or extremist among liberals.

[AverageJoe90]

20. And it's not. Not at all.

The main problem is, you seem to think that most, or even all of the people who disagree with you on certain of the actually controversial topics, such as "rape culture" terminology(I personally don't have too much of a problem with the term itself, though), etc. are anti-feminist, period. And that's not the truth.

[hrmjustin]

13. K&R!

[niyad]

14. k and r--I am sure there are widdle heads exploding everywhere tonight.

[sheshe2]

16. DU Rec!

Thank you VP Biden!

[BainsBane]

18. Thanks, sheshe2!

You know I'm a fan of your OPs.

[sheshe2]

27. Thanks BainsBane ~

I always like talking to you.

As for Joe, gotta love that man...he's got heart, and he knows how to use it.

[AverageJoe90]

38. Agreed. Agreed.

[WheelWalker]

29. +1

Agreed.

[MannyGoldstein]

21. I had no idea that people on DU disagree with Biden's statements

Thanks for bringing this to our attention.

[bettyellen]

58. Way too many people here disagree with Biden's statements. Saw that last week, guess you missed it.

[AverageJoe90]

62. And most don't!

Other than maybe a few faux-Dems in the Men's Group, possibly, I honestly can't think of anyone outside the occasional troll who would have any problem with not hitting a woman(unless trying to defend yourself) or that any sex without consent is rape.

Mostly, it's just a certain few blowing the scope and commonality of the problem on this site way out of proportion. And it DOES get tiring after a while.

[LittleBlue]

24. "Don't hit women" isn't radical feminism

No one on DU disagrees with this. Maybe this would be more useful posted on a forum where people believe hitting women is okay.

[BainsBane]

30. I count three

so far saying or implying I shouldn't be posting this where I want.

The point is that radfem is thrown around as an insult, with no sense of what the word means or even what people think it means. All some seem to care about is that feminists post about stuff like rape they prefer not to read. (Why folks can't just pass the thread by or use trash by keyword, I have no idea). The VP is talking about rape and battery too. He cares about the civil rights of women, even if some here insist rape isn't a political issue and shouldn't be discussed on a website for a party whose majority voting demographic is women. Never mind. It relates to another one of those "isms" you don't think matter any more.

Say, does that mean no one should be posting stuff about Republicans here either because no one here is a Republican? Should we not post about bank corruption since no one here is a Wall Street financeer? Should be not post about Snowden since no one here is in the NSA, or not post about the Ukraine since no one here is in the Russian military? Or is it just subjects that affect the lives of the subaltern that don't belong on DU? Maybe you should alert the news networks and tell them they shouldn't cover speeches like this by the Vice President because you think no one in the audience beats women?

[AverageJoe90]

45. My only problem was the flamebait.

Had you not done that, there wouldn't have been a problem at all.

[BainsBane]

46. Then ignore it

That is what I do when I perceive a thread as flamebait. No one forced you to read this or any other thread.

[AverageJoe90]

51. So you admit to trolling?

Brava! Brava! Well done, I say!

In all seriousness, I'm not surprised anymore. Given the attitudes you've espoused here and elsewhere, I dunno what else I *should* expect.

[BainsBane]

56. No

And the fact the jury came back 0-7 to leave should tell you they didn't see it as flame bait either. You call it that because you see my ideas and speech as illegitimate. That is the point of what I've been saying all along. People have a right to discuss concerns you don't share, and you have a right not to care about them. What is not acceptable is to accuse me of trolling because you don't like my post. Besides, is this had been intended as flame bait, it failed. GD is full of threads with far more flame and contention than this one.

The juror on your alert had some good advice: if you find me so objectionable, put me on ignore or simply pass by the thread rather than trying to control my speech.

[AverageJoe90]

57. You don't get it, I'm afraid.

And the fact the jury came back 0-7 to leave should tell you they didn't see it as flame bait either.

Well, nothing's perfect, I suppose. In any case,

You call it that because you see my ideas and speech as illegitimate

Even though you actually openly admitted to flamebaiting a couple posts back. And don't try to B.S. about it either. And it isn't so much about "legitimacy" but there *are* some problematic things that have been espoused and I have just as much of a right to call it out as you do posting it.

if you find me so objectionable, put me on ignore or simply pass by the thread rather than trying to control my speech.

But here's the thing: this isn't about control. I'm sorry if perhaps you feel a little paranoid, or extra-sensitive(or even just plain offended that someone disagreed with you), but I seriously don't have that kind of power anyway, as can already be seen.

[BainsBane]

59. I most certainly did not

I have been trying to have a good-faith discussion with you, which is clearly pointless. Several times you have claimed I said things I never did. You started by accusing feminists of blaming all men for rape, yet failed to produce a single link. You've gone on to claim a series of things I never said. I've had enough.

[AverageJoe90]

60. " I have been trying to have a good-faith discussion with you, which is clearly pointless."

I feel the exact same way.

And frankly, one of the things that really has me scratching my head is this:

Racism takes many forms.....One of which is denial of the problem.

Whatever it was, I do hope this wasn't an accusation from you about me.....

[lumberjack_jeff]

52. There is no arbiter of what RadFem means, or in fact what feminism in general means.

It's an empty bag into which the person dumps their own attitudes, beliefs and feelings then applies the label.

Should RadFem be an insult? Probably not, because I'm sure there are many decent people who consider themselves radical feminists. There are also a great many sexist and transphobic assholes. But if you ask the assholes what the primary features of radical feminism are, they'll reach into the bag and present the personality traits that make them assholes.

But since there's no one to kick them out of the club, they have as much right to define the term as anyone else.

And yes, the same could probably be said for mens rights activists, but there's not much effort here to rehabilitate the term.

[bettyellen]

65. I think the point was that the ideas Biden espouses here are not widely considered radical.

Although here on DU it is puzzling to see even a few people consider them as radical. Honestly, if you don't soften everything to the point of pandering here on DU, some label you radical. To many here, a woman who dares and take back control of the converstaion is radical, quite a few have a problem with that.

[BainsBane]

67. a couple of responses

In this very thread demonstrate as much, as is the case in virtually every thread on feminist issues.

[bettyellen]

68. It is amazing how many young minds here think feminism has failed or is not needed, and they have no

response at all when you rattle off the historical accomplishments or current issues that need to be a addressed.
They could at least say thanks for the mini education instead of running off and hiding, LOL.

[Jasana]

25. K&R nt.

[JI7]

31. i just saw the thread where seabeyond was attacked and told they hope she gets raped

so there are people on here who may deny things at times but do support certain things.

[BainsBane]

32. Get this

Someone alerted on a post of mine where I referenced those comments on the basis that I was exaggerating the remarks, that she wasn't really threatened at all. Instead, the poster only "wished" she would be raped. A MIRT member who sent me the jury results noted that was precisely the loophole that excused Death Threat Guy, a repeat troll they nuke several times a day, because he only "wishes" harm to members here. MIRT may have to change his nickname to Death Wish Guy.

[JI7]

34. and this is why people claiming there is "nobody on here who supports" is bs

it's pretty much like bundy and other right wing racists claiming they are not racist.

"but he didn't say the N word"

"but he didn't say he will rape her "just" that he hopes she is raped" see it's not so bad.

i'm not sure if that was a sock of vashta's but if vashta had not been banned he would be in this thread denying it's an issue.

[AverageJoe90]

39. "and this is why people claiming there is "nobody on here who supports" is bs" Only thing is........

In this case, it's really not B.S.; it really is true. Most DUers DON'T. 99.9% of us don't.

And yes, Vashta Nerada obviously had some major problems to deal with if the allegations are indeed true, but assholes like that don't make up anything more than perhaps a small fraction of this site, if that.

[BainsBane]

42. It was a sock of Vastha's

EarlG confirmed it to MIRT. He could tell by the IP address.

[bettyellen]

63. and Varshta had a lot of high fives from other DUers when he spewed regressive bullshit....

it is not just the trolls, it's that too many here defend their backwards bullshit.

[BainsBane]

64. no one

Not one person who loves to condemn Feminists has expressed any concern for what Vashta said,
even when I have prompted them repeatedly and provided links. The same people who for months on end insisted I and others were responsible for comments another feminist made have refused to say anything about Vashta's remarks but instead have responded to discussions of those comments with further attacks on HOF members. Then of course there was the alerter who trivialized the remarks by insisting they weren't really threats in an attempt to get a post of mine hidden. What does that say about those people and their characters?

[bettyellen]

66. yes, and they pretend he was some lone nutbag instead of someone who received their encouragement

and support here for way too long.