"We raise girls to cater to the fragile egos of men."

[WilliamPitt]

[AverageJoe90]

1. Love this!

Perhaps one day, equality of the sexes can be truly achieved, worldwide. Sadly, we've still got a ways to go yet.

But we're not giving up, either. We *ARE* winning. Piece by piece. So there's plenty of reason to be hopeful. Thanks, Will.

[Mondavi]

226. This is a good start on a subject which needs lots of discussion

The fragile male ego
How male domination of all of our cultures impacts females
And why we give us little encouragement to females to live their lives for their own benefit.

[DebJ]

2. 'They grow up to be women who silence themselves..."

Until they hit age 40 or so, LOL.

[seabeyond]

3. Yup, lol, there around. Nt

[Jamastiene]

47. Yup.

Once I hit 40, I started not really caring any more. I speak my mind now and anyone who doesn't like it, can lump it. I could care less if it upsets someone's fragile ego, because I really don't care any more.

[TNNurse]

185. I did not wait until 40.

All I do now is try not to get fired before I can retire later this year. I find myself speaking up in dangerous ways at work.

[seabeyond]

186. lol tn. welcome. and i hear ya. not that i can get fired, but....

if i were in a position to be fired, i would hear ya. lol.

we get bad, as we age. i mean bad in the best of ways.... freedom.

[Nanjing to Seoul]

4. It's not just the US. I tell my wife Chinese men are insecure so Chinese women have to be

twice as insecure to make the men feel good about themselves.

She agrees completely. The joys of a Chinese national with a foreign education.

[Tanuki]

40. "I tell my wife"...."she agrees completely"

Oh, the irony!

[Nanjing to Seoul]

42. Maybe I used the wrong words. "I have a discussion with my wife about this topic.

We discuss gender roles while I cook dinner. She explains the roles of women and men in Chinese culture. I discuss the reasons why this happens. She agrees because, being 24 years old and a Chinese national, she sees it with her family, in the TV shows she watches and talking to her friends. So she agrees with my assessment of the situation."

Are you happy, or do you want to passive-aggressively call me a bad, domineering husband in your own aloof, snarky way?

One of the reasons I told Americans to get out of my life seven years ago was the exact tenor of your response to me. Rude, aloof, haughty and extremely uncalled for.

But thanks for playing.

[Tanuki]

43. I guess I hit a nerve. You're doing a lot of projecting there. n/t

[Nanjing to Seoul]

50. You insulted me and the way I treat my wife. And you insulted her by saying

she isn't smart enough to choose a good man.

You're God damn right you hit a nerve.

[Demeter]

55. Hear, Hear!

I tried that, married a foreign man...and it didn't matter. Turned out, he really wanted to be a Californian. The green card was a big mistake, IMO.

[Nanjing to Seoul]

61. My wife seems to have no problems with me.

I don't know if your post is sarcasm or an insult, so i will let it go and smile.

[Demeter]

106. I am supporting your argument

and supplying a personal anecdote about when the woman goes looking for a reasonable man (or a man who can be reasoned with). Appreciate the smile.

[magical thyme]

59. I didn't read the comment as an insult to your wife or to you...

so much as a comment on how so deeply embedded and pervasive the traditional male/female roles are in society that even when we think we have stepped outside the box, our speech patterns reveal we still are still stuck inside it.

[Tansy_Gold]

80. Yep. n/t

[1StrongBlackMan]

81. Great Observation. eom.

[Squinch]

136. Exactly!

[druidity33]

153. Totally an insult... c'mon, laughing smily? nt.

[duhneece]

101. I read it the same way that you did. Your statement didn't have to be interpreted in an insult

I also agreed with your statement about women having to appear to be twice as insecure. I'm a 63 year old woman with German, Irish, Welsh ancestors. Please accept my sorrow about the snarkiness of others said to you.

[2banon]

188. No, You did NOT say anything to deserve that snarky, rude response.

Your post was just fine, and respectful. Don't give it a second thought. Don't know why the poster was being rude and snarky, but it certainly wasn't justified.

[CreekDog]

248. can you stop using every thread about sexism to insert Asian stereotypes?

[seabeyond]

253. "you are nuts" really?

[CreekDog]

258. looks like he can't post in this thread anymore...

well, in theory...

On Fri May 2, 2014, 11:25 AM you sent an alert on the following post:

Creekdog, stop stalking me. Another DUer said you are nuts and I am seeing it.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4900728

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

YOUR COMMENTS

Calling a poster "nuts" is not ok.

JURY RESULTS

A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Fri May 2, 2014, 11:42 AM, and voted 6-1 to HIDE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Though I feel for Nanjing because there will be inevitable clashes in cultural observations, it is never okay to question someone's mental abilities. If he has an issue with a poster, he should PM the Admins, and keep it off the boards, IMHO.
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Silent "ignores" are so much better for the overall psyche of DU.
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: I don't know if CD is stalking N2S. I think N2S was rightfully upset by the response accusing him of mistreating his wife but I can also see how hos post could be taken that way. I think everyone here needs to cool down and everyone figure out what everyone is really saying rather than just assuming the worst. But even with all that, don't call people nuts in that context.
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: personal attack
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Personal attack.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: For this mild expression? Come on.

and no, i didn't accuse him of mistreating his wife, i asked him to not post stereotypes, and these were a continuation from a thread just a few days ago. the stereotypes were across the board.

[seabeyond]

259. "well, in theory..."

that was funny, made me laugh.

and ya. i kinda stayed out of all that, cause.... too many knee jerk name calling though....

you

have a good friday. i am

[MineralMan]

264. Actually, that poster can't post anywhere for a while.

Transparency is showing now, after that hidden post.

[Supersedeas]

103. ding ding ding

[seabeyond]

5. In the past anyway, girls are liT-relly taught to coddle and stroke male ego.

That has got to stop. I am all for ensuring loved ones feel good but this stroking the ego is often at the expense of women. It isn't good for girls but the real damage is truly for the men. Not good.

[GeoWilliam750]

145. So very true

I do so wish people could see that making somebody else weak does not make anybody else strong, but makes us all collectively weaker.

We need to stop socialising our girls to be submissive women. On average, young women are smarter than young men these days, it seems, and the world is shifting, although at a pace that sometimes seems like wading through neck deep molasses.

[seabeyond]

148. good point geo. emotionally it makes men weaker. contributing to it. yet, i find

women and girls to be more emtoionally pragmatic. cause they are not coddled. they cannot afford to be. i see it as a determent to our boys and their health

[MannyGoldstein]

6. Ha! Mrs. Goldstein must have been raised by wolves then!

Or honey badgers

[oneofthe99]

7. What country is she talking about because it's not the U.S ?

[awoke_in_2003]

15. Try opening your eyes. nt

[Warpy]

32. And ears. nt

[chervilant]

39. It's every country. n/t

[Mira]

70. Are you paying attention?

or is this a trick question

[Harmony Blue]

72. Exactly

this is simply put another way to attack men with a message of "empowerment"

[Squinch]

284. Empowerment is an attack on men? I've heard that some thought that, but I didn't believe it.

I guess it's true after all.

[Marrah_G]

73. It's everywhere, even here

[Vashta Nerada]

122. Oh don't go asking that 'round here!

I learned to tell girls to stroke men's egos when they get older in my theory of teaching class.

At least that's what some posters have been saying in this thread.

[seabeyond]

128. Obnoxious VN. No one is gonna waste time explaining when you make clear

A refusal to listen. I think it is telling that you have to wade thru all the people personally speaking out to this to find someone to agree with and be snarky with

Btw... Your non support you wanted linked to? This crap. Always and consistently

[Vashta Nerada]

142. I have never seen this

In academia or high school. I have a teaching license for Jr. High. This doesn't happen in schools. I have taught in schools. This is all bs.

[seabeyond]

143. you do not look. you do not pay attention. it is in front of your face, and do not see.

not my problem.

it is in books. it is in the magazines sold to women and sold to men. it is a concept we are all taught.

this is why, you are not taken seriously.

have you read anyone trying to explain it to you? to show you wrong?

you do not care. just deny. that is all. then you can move along.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024893303#post139

[seabeyond]

146. emotional bs? where did that come from? out of no where. wait woman. accuse her of emotional bs

gonna ask me if it is my time of the month also. or maybe on the pill that changes my character.

you did not have the time to read the post in that link that actually took the time to explain some, ... to you men, that just knee jerk deny.

is that your ability to teach? that is what i am suppose to be oh so impressed with? what bs would that be?

[Vashta Nerada]

147. That you have no idea what you're talking about.

[seabeyond]

149. wtf??? still didnt read the info i linked to you? keep the fingers in their ears

as you yell out your denial, and impress us with your teaching credentials, ....

[seabeyond]

151. ah. using "emotional" on me didnt fly. throwing your "teaching credentials" at me didnt impress.

now you are going for flat out insults.

remember. you were the one asking for info on this supposed "stroke ego" stuff.


i provide

you ignore

and insult.

well done. not.

[Vashta Nerada]

152. Performance artist isn't an insult.

Nice try.

Unless you like playing the victim.

I'll email my professors and let them know non teachers think they know what they're talking about. Hell, Maybe I should let them know we should change our curriculum for girls on how to stroke men's egos. To think, I wasted all that time teaching girls earth science.

[seabeyond]

156. omg... lol. talk ego. I'll email my professors and let them know non teachers think they know what

I'll email my professors and let them know non teachers think they know what they're talking about.

are you suggesting that all us "non teachers" are not allowed to discuss or have an opinion about a single damn thing cause you credentialed teachers are suppose to be listened to? even when you refuse to educate yourself.

omg... lol

i give you a link. so you can educate yourself. which as a credited teacher you should jump all over. you ignore. insult. and tell us "non teachers" to shut the fuck up. how dare we speak

you EMAIL your teacher.

fug

so fuggin funny

out of her dude.

i take it you got your paper written for class, ... lmFao

[seabeyond]

162. my gosh. you put me in my place by calling me emotional, without teaching credentials, now resort

to b****, and i am the problem.? i am suppose to allow you to be all condescending and insulting, and lower eyes?

that would be coddling your ego

i care about men too much. i cannot help create you to be emotionally weak. i will not do it and you cannot make me.


on edit... clarifying i copied and pasted the poster i am responding to. he said this to me.

"Oh Fuck off.
View profile
Bitch.

Always playing the fucking victim.

Go jump off a bridge."

[boston bean]

164. Sea, make sure others know that you are quoting the poster above you.

[seabeyond]

168. you think i covered it? lol. geez. that is something. nt

[Texasgal]

165. And the results are in!

n Thu May 1, 2014, 03:35 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Oh Fuck off.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4897528

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

I think calling someone a bitch counts as an unacceptable personal attack.

JURY RESULTS

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Thu May 1, 2014, 03:42 PM, and the Jury voted 6-1 to HIDE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: HIDE IT.
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: PA. Easy vote to hide. If one can't control their temper, then don't respond. Take a time out.
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: I'd have hide for the "fuck off" alone, the "bitch" was really overkill.
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: People get exasperated by professional victims and identity politics trolls.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Holy Shit! This needs to be hidden for certain!

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.


Thank GOD! What a nasty post!

[seabeyond]

169. i dare, i double dog dare juror 5 to say... hi. lol. how about exasperated at the juror

that can only mouth in anonymous, lol. not that i care cause i have not had a lifetime of my ego being stroked, so it kinda just bounces off.

what does that make the juror that he claims victim to the "professional victims"

what a hoot. thanks gal

[alp227]

184. And ONE juror actually voted "LEAVE IT ALONE"????

SMH. I'm also wondering why this particular user who wrote that bad word isn't even flagged for review.

[seabeyond]

187. ah. really. NO ONE on du would EVaH use the b word on their fellow duers. nope. not gonna ever

happen.

actually. they generally like using the b word on me with jury. where they cannot be identified.

[Bjorn Against]

194. He is not only flagged now, he has his five hidden posts and will be taking a break

I would not be surprised if we find out soon that it is a permanent break, the post in which he suggested sea should commit suicide is most certainly ban worthy. I really hope he is lying when he says he is a teacher, I could not imagine someone who would make a comment like that teaching young girls.

[Dorian Gray]

230. I agree....

I have to say one thing here. I've been on the border of the gender "wars" on DU. I rarely post and only feel compelled to when I think something is truly egregious. But that attitude that got him hidden? That is egregious. To let his anger get the best of him like that and spout hateful things? I can't imagine having so little self control.

And it's posts like that that make me realize that there is an ingrained hatred for women in some males. Because if there wasn't? He would have taken the time and listened and discussed thoughtfully (even if he disagreed) without resorting to name calling and threats.

[cyberswede]

245. He's been banned.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=306421&sub=trans

[MerryBlooms]

251. I'm glad. He was disruptive and downright mean most of the time.

he got away with a lot of abuse for way too long, and these posts here to seabeyond are vile. I'm glad I wasn't the only one alerting.

[JTFrog]

293. And he was propped up far too long.

High fives and back slapping buddies.

Disgusting shit.

[BainsBane]

196. That juror should be removed from the jury pool

If the person doesn't hide that, s/he clearly doesn't take the responsibility seriously. The comment only reinforces the fact s/he thinks justice applies to some and not others.

[cyberswede]

243. He was a sock, and he was banned.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=313197&sub=trans

[BainsBane]

244. Someone told me that was from another jury

On the hide on the post by VN's sock.

[cyberswede]

246. He was the lone "leave" vote on the "jump off a bridge" post. nt

[seabeyond]

204. you hope some guy rapes me? how old are you? 8

[UtahLib]

205. I just alerted on that post, sea.

That is the filthiest comment I've ever seen posted here. Sorry you had to see it.

My first alert, too.

[seabeyond]

206. ya, well... i guess he gets off on his rape porn. filth. wants to share with all.

i would love to see the jury, if anyone has it.

[seabeyond]

208. i guess we are seeing what happens when we do not stroke SOME male ego. nt

[Rhiannon12866]

212. Good job! Thanks!

He's gone...

[seabeyond]

216. i assume it was

mirt? yea you guys...

[Rhiannon12866]

217. There was no dissent among MIRT, either

We see some of the worst stuff, but this one was in a class by itself.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=300212&sub=trans

[UtahLib]

218. Thank you, Admin and the great jurors!

Seriously disturbed person, there.

[Rhiannon12866]

219. Thanks for your quick alert...

MIRT never sleeps.

[UtahLib]

220. LOL, thanks MIRT. nt

[Scootaloo]

229. Out of curiosity, I checked some of his other posts

Here's his take on the Pope:

Oh. He helps the poor. He's a great man.
Never mind that he is homophobic and anti-women's rights.

Great man

How odd!

[Thor_MN]

207. Wow... Most unified jury I've been on.

JURY RESULTS

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Fri May 2, 2014, 12:00 AM, and the Jury voted 7-0 to HIDE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No question about this one, jeez.
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Worst post ever! No excuse. I agree that this poster does not belong on DU. That is vile.
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: This should be an automatic pizza delivery. Should be 42-0 to hide...
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: My God. Hide it, remove it, and remove him. Now.
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: PPR may be justified.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Absolutely disgusting post
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Holy crap, this is gross.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[seabeyond]

209. thank you for providing the jury. first... get raped post i have had. i am THRILLED

to see each and every one of those replies.

[UtahLib]

210. I found that post so upsetting

that I'm still shaking. I really believe that he/she deserves a PPR.

[seabeyond]

214. ya. he has been here before. i was going over his posts. a couple months ago i was

looking at his posts. he immediately had me wondering who he was as a returnee. i kinda have an idea.

[UtahLib]

221. Yeah, 1 post in GD in the last 90 days.

Been biding his time. He's quite the disgusting little beast.

[Thor_MN]

211. I'd never seen a jury where everyone added comments.

Without a doubt the single worst post I have ever seen.

[seabeyond]

215. i noticed that also.

and agree, too. though, i do have another obsessed fan that likes to throw some of that language around.

[KitSileya]

223. And if that isn't an illustration as to what women posting on the internet regularly sees,

I don't know what is. Everyone who thinks that feminists just "whine" and play the victim, should click on that post and read it, and imagine getting those in their mailbox, often with personal information attached, making it clear that the person making the threats know exactly who they are in real life. That is what is the standard, not the exception, for women speaking on feminist matters on the internet.

[seabeyond]

239. sounds like a typical porn shot. perusing previous posts, he was sure to share watching porn

daily.

maybe he ought to get himself off it for a while, so as not to get porn confused with real life.

pathetic little man.

[dionysus]

225. that is either an angry sock puppet, or some troll who knows your posts too well...

[Dorian Gray]

231. Wow

That post was so ugly....

I hope that was a troll and not a regular poster here. Sorry people are treating you like this seabeyond.

[Raven]

232. Sweet Jesus, sea.

I'm sorry you had to deal with that.

These types of threads really bring them out of the woodwork, don't they.

[CreekDog]

254. Apophis was probably Vashta

except for the above attack on you, which sounded very similar to Vashta's, Apophis didn't post in the past 90 days. only here when Vashta couldn't continue the argument against you.

if it's of any comfort, some of the sexists here are sockpuppets and don't even represent the small number of posters here, but in fact are fewer.

[seabeyond]

256. i know creekdog. lol. that we deal over and over.

the upside. i do understand what went on in this situation. it is much easier, when we are given the facts. then we can put it into better, healthy, perspective. thank you. exactly like you suggest.

[CreekDog]

250. Vashta and apophis were PPR'd but not before serving on 28 juries

total.

they (or was it "he&quot did a lot of damage in their time here.

[seabeyond]

255. yes. always inciting. always jabbing with a stick. from day one. and we had to repeatedly

deal with it. civilly. or we got the hide.

[chrisa]

263. Banned.

[Whisp]

270. I sure hope admin looks at juror #5! What a blankety blank. n/t

[dionysus]

222. i think you showed us all what you are in this thread, buddy...

[cyberswede]

242. He showed EarlG, at least

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=306421&sub=trans

[greatauntoftriplets]

262. Excellent!

And I bet that GoldyGopher was Vashta again. Good nuke.

[myrna minx]

237. I'm so sorry - Yesterday I accidentaly voted to keep the post above yours.

I had more than one window open and voted to keep the wrong post- I'm appalled that I did. I apologize.

[seabeyond]

238. i hear ya. happens to all of us. i am impressed with the ones that did get hidden.

thank you for letting us know....

[Warpy]

154. You mean you never wanted to see it

since it's so nice having women kiss your ass and stroke your ego. You've got a lot of company.

Just realize how many of us have said the same thing in this thread, how women recognize the sentiment in the OP and how much we resent having it done to us when we were girls.

[seabeyond]

158. hey, you are a non teacher. he is going to email his teacher and tell on you, ... that you

dare to speak

watch it

[Warpy]

160. I'm an old woman

and I no longer give a flying fuck.

All that early training turns to resentment.

Men who ignore us do so at their peril.

[seabeyond]

163. it really is true warpy. and it really is for the health of men. emotional health.

i had a poster just tell me to fuck off and called me the b word and told to jump off the bridge, lol. so i was a little snarky there. but.... i do believe. that women need to stop. that it does no one any good and not healthy for me to be coddled. they can handle life just fine, not being coddled. as a matter of fact, probably better.

[BainsBane]

272. He claimed to be a grad student in an anthropology program

Yet had not the slightest understanding of critical race theory, which strikes me as impossible.

[nomorenomore08]

140. Depends on the family, depends on the community. No society is immune. n/t

[Vashta Nerada]

8. I haven't seen this here in the US.

[oneofthe99]

9. Most Muslim countries women are objects

In some they still have arranged marriages usually to a much older man.

It's disgusting

[Vashta Nerada]

10. Ah.

This quote should have been a little more clear about what country(ies) she was talking about.

I figured it was Muslim countries she was talking about.

[oneofthe99]

12. I had to look up who she is

Born in Nigeria 50% muslim population in that country where many places are ruled by Sharia law
So there you go....

[Mira]

74. I have lived in Europe and in

the American South.
And she is singing the song of all my sisters. We just don't all see it (yet...)

[Tumbulu]

13. In the rural/red parts of the US

and certainly my generation was raised this way. The over 50 crowd in urban US.

[raccoon]

48. I strongly second your post! nt

[LiberalLoner]

49. +1

[seabeyond]

52. stroke mans ego. sit quietly and be nice. literally what girls were taught. nt

[VanillaRhapsody]

63. agree!

I was going to say....some people haven't spent much time in the South if they think it could ONLY be a foreign country....

By they way.....notice who the Militia was going to put in front out at the Bundy Ranch? Do you think they see their wives as "equals"

[hfojvt]

107. I'm 52 from a small town in SD

Not the way we were raised.

Certainly not in my family.

And if my female classmates were catering to my "fragile male ego", then I must have missed it somehow.

[Tumbulu]

174. well, lucky you!

But for the rest of us, it is pretty local and not something only from a foreign land.

[hfojvt]

273. so you say

but I doubt that you have lived in every area that you are stereotyping.

You just know that the backwards assed country fu$%s are that way. You just KNOW it. Especially the old ones who grew up in the 1970s.

One of my friends once said about the small town he grew up in, and graduated about the same year I did. "The seventies were awesome because hippies ruled, even in this little town."

[Tumbulu]

299. I've lived in rural America most of my adult life

I farm and ranch.

Don't try getting all uppity with me.

[LanternWaste]

300. Much as many fish are unaware of the very water they swim in...

" then I must have missed it somehow..."

Much as many fish are unaware of the very water they swim in, and never think upon it until it is gone...

[knitter4democracy]

14. I was raised that way.

In dealing with my male principal, my older female coworkers advise me all the time to be careful not to mention this or that because it might upset him, that I have to build him up and make him feel better about himself and the job he's doing if I don't want to be a target.

[Smarmie Doofus]

38. Alas. That's the *principal* part; not the "male" part.

I did exactly this for 25 years w. exclusively FEMALE principals.

So did everyone I worked w. , male and female.


>>coworkers advise me all the time to be careful not to mention this or that because it might upset him, that I have to build him up and make him feel better about himself and the job he's doing if I don't want to be a target.>>>

[bhikkhu]

16. I have

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/the_hidden_brain/2011/03/psychout_sexism.html

and then more recently http://time.com/81355/girls-beat-boys-in-every-subject-and-they-have-for-a-century/

Yet there is a persistent bias that girls can't do well in math or science, and the results are on full display in the gender imbalances in those professions.

More to the point of my "I have", raising two daughters who are both very smart and really good at math (better than me, and I'm no slouch), I always encouraged them to make the best of their talents and enjoy being at the top of the class and being able to help others and so forth...but by sixth grade they both had independently decided that they were no good. In spite of good grades and positive encouragement, "girls aren't good at math", then "I'm no good at math" is regularly heard. It certainly didn't come from home, and my best guess is that the title of the OP is spot-on - fragile male egos lead to peer pressure and societal pressure to under-perform and satisfy the low expectations.

In school, in the US, girls who excel in math and science aren't "cool", and get labeled and shuffled to the back of the bus, so to speak. I hope its a trend that changes, and current demographics of college graduates is a good sign, but there is still a long way to go. A boy who excels is given all public accolades, while a girl who excels feels pressured to keep it to herself as it is considered "unattractive".

[Vashta Nerada]

17. I teach a couple of undergrad classes and I have never seen this.

Yes, it may happen, but it's not as widespread as you may claim.

[bhikkhu]

19. Women are well represented in social and medical sciences, but are shut out of math-related fields

forming about 15-25% of the workforce in math, engineering and computer sciences. Its well established that its not for lack of actual ability, but rather social prejudices that begin in primary school.

Neil DeGrasse had some good remarks about that recently as well - http://www.upworthy.com/neil-degrasse-tyson-reveals-that-hes-been-black-his-whole-life-hilarity-and-wisdom-follow

[davidn3600]

31. It's not discrimination...women just are not very attracted to STEM majors

Recent research shows the problem with low enrollment of women in the STEM majors is about choice.

Studying 1490 people who had participated in a longitudinal study, the researchers found that "mathematically capable individuals who also had high verbal skills were less likely to pursue STEM careers than were individuals who had high math skills but moderate verbal skills." They emphasize this "notable" fact: "The group with high math and high verbal ability included more females than males."
http://sciencecareers.sciencemag.org/career_magazine/previous_issues/articles/2013_03_22/caredit.a1300052

It's not that women can't do STEM, nor is it because of any discouragement. The problem is most women just simply don't have the interest in those fields that men do.

Do you want to force women into careers they don't want just so you can have statistics that show equality?

[bhikkhu]

66. That's a "women have better opportunities" argument

I'm sorry I don't buy it. If that were the case, then how do you explain the income disparity? There's much more to it than women doing better jobs and getting paid less than men.

http://www.crispymoney.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=96&d=1333118806&stc=1

and on edit - its very similar to the "blacks prefer manual labor" argument, or the "women don't need to vote because they're uninterested in politics" argument.

And who ever said that verbal abilities aren't necessary in math and science? If anything, they are more vital there?

The study about women choosing different fields is flawed at least in that it looks at a minority who have achieved their goals in the fields that they were allowed to achieve them in, and ignores all those who were shut out from other fields. When the bias against women in science and math goes back to primary school and is a deep cultural artifact, the ones who should have been polled have largely been convinced of their unsuitability and discouraged long before they could be polled.

"We raise girls to cater to the fragile egos of men." - that's what I've seen, and the national statistics bear it out.

[Harmony Blue]

75. The capitalists would fire a lot more males since females could do the same work

for a fraction of the cost.

That is why that argument is only perpetuated by liberal academia but in the general public people don't accept it. Employers fire the higher paying workers to replace them for lower paid workers every day to save money. It simply doesn't jive with reality.

[seaglass]

108. Do you have something to back that up? Very rarely have I seen VPs and Directors getting laid

off before middle managers. Front line employees always go before decision makers. That was the trend at 3 mid to large companies I worked for.

Even the small company I work for does not fire or lay off the higher paid employees - the less skilled, lower paid are the ones that go first.

[Orrex]

134. But the question isn't about more vs. less skilled

If we're talking about disparities in pay, then it does no good to compare a skilled, high-paid worker to a less skilled, lower-paid worker.

If a male worker of a given skill level is paid more than a female worker of the same skill level and one must be terminated because of cost, why wouldn't their employer terminate the higher-paid worker, who represents a greater liability? And why wouldn't this lead to greater female representation in the workplace? Employers love nothing more than cutting down payroll costs, after all.

[seaglass]

175. I was responding to the specific point that employers fire higher paid rather than lower paid

workers every day to save money when I find that not to be the way it has worked in the companies that I have worked for.

I don't believe that most decisions made about firing are based solely on salary but more on value. YMMV.

[Orrex]

183. I know, but the poster's point was, in fact, based on equally-paid employees

Rather than upon high-salary vs. low-salary employees.

I don't believe that most decisions made about firing are based solely on salary but more on value. YMMV.

That actually undercuts your argument. If decisions about firing are driven by employee value, then we can reasonably conclude that decisions about salary are also driven by employee value. If an employee has a higher salary than another employee performing the same job for the same company, then on what basis can we claim that the higher-paid employee doesn't provide greater value?

I'm not saying that this is necessarily the case, and certainly not the case across the board, but it suggests that the issue of salary is not the simple apples:apples comparison that it's formulated to be.


Suppose that we have two employees in the same job for the same company, both of equal value and and equal in every way except that one makes 1.29 times the salary of the other. If the employer is looking to cut payroll costs and needs to eliminate one employee, who's it going to be? If women provide equal value as men while performing the same jobs for the same companies, then why would the employer not terminate male employees in preference to female employees, when such terminations are necessary?

That is the point that the poster was making.

[bettyellen]

189. there is a perception of value- like how employers screen out people with ethnic names, and women or

perceive their resumes( in study after study) to be not as good as others when only the name is different. The biggest percentage of hiring manager happen to be white men, and some favor their "own kind" - to the extent that they believe that men like them need more salary (both legislators and business owners have been recently quoted in the news recently saying exactly that) , and to the extent that they may protect their jobs rather than find themselves surrounded by "others". A manger of white dudes may himself feel higher status than a manger of women and minority workers. It is a pervasive attitude in the workplace that is taking a bit too long to die out.

People go to great lengths to justify their prejudices- even ones they aren't aware they have.

[davidn3600]

166. Are we comparing apples to apples here? Im not so sure....

The wage gap is supposed to be a comparison between male and female salaries doing the SAME work for the SAME hours for the SAME level of experience. In other words you are comparing a male doctor to a female doctor.

You seem to be going more in the argument that female-dominated careers pay less than male-dominated careers (ie: kindergarten teacher vs a software engineer). That's a different phenomenon than the gender wage gap we are normally talking about. A number of things are going on here. First off, careers women tend to choose are many times quite simply are not in high demand. Second, a software engineer will always make more money than a kindergarten teacher...not because a teacher isn't important, but the software engineer will be working for employers that have a potential for large profits. In America, we don't pay salaries based on the job's importance to society, we pay based on supply and demand combined with available cash flow. STEM majors are in high demand and their employers tend to make good profit margins...teachers on the other hand are not in demand and are paid by taxpayers (where there is always pressure to lower taxes).

Im not saying it's right that people are not paid according to their social value to society. That's unfortunately just a reality of the capitalist system.

Another part of the issue is our gender roles. Societal pressures on men and women are not the same. So when we go to pick a career, we have different motivations.

And also a lot of it is just interest. Men tend to have a fetish for technology. Men tend to be visual and kinesthetic learners more than women. Not saying women can't do it. It's just men are more enthusiastic about STEM careers than women.

[bhikkhu]

179. That's also looking at the results of discrimination and assuming that they were a matter of choice

Which is an old argument too - black people don't mind being slaves, they have so much less to worry about, they prefer it!

Women don't want to be involved in politics, its much easier for them to let their husbands handle voting and all that!

Black people prefer manual labor, it suits them better and they prefer it!

Women would rather stay home and take care of the house and raise babies - its easier for them and they prefer it!

Black people would rather be unemployed, its easier and they prefer it!

All of the above can be "proven" by statistics, if one assumes that the reality of the day is a matter of choice that reflects the characters of those involved.

If there is one thing I've learned by experience over the years, having lived all over the country and being acquainted with thousands of people, is that there are no typical male or female characteristics. People are individuals, and character and mental composition are independent of gender. That individuals are pushed into gender-defined roles (and race-defined roles as well) is absolutely a reality, but the actual mental characteristics of one's birth are independent of that.

[bettyellen]

224. incredibly sexist notions you have there David!

[davidn3600]

228. Incredibly sexist to suggest the genders can have differences by nature?

Do you feel we are all born a blank slate? That nature has not given each gender any different tendencies or instincts at all? The reason an average little girl makes a beeline to the girls section of the toy store is 100% because of society-dictated gender roles?

As with most nature vs nurture debates, the true answer is that it's a bit of both. And that's what I believe. I believe this is a gray area.

What I find most intriguing about research in this topic is transgenders. If we are born as blank slates like you seem to think we are, why is it that a transgender person feels as if they are born the wrong gender? With these people, the brain's gender doesn't match the body. And they know something is wrong very early in life...2 or 3 years old many times.

The idea that women are supposed to cook and clean the house and the man is supposed to go to work...that's society. We are being taught (and forced) into those roles by our upbringing. I'm 100% in agreement with you there. But I think it's pretty obvious men and women don't think in exactly the same ways. We dont behave exactly the same. There is something different there between us. And to think that difference plays no role in our interests and career choices is a bit naive.

[CreekDog]

234. of course you haven't complained when men are paid more

and you posted here in one of my threads to say that women should pay more for health insurance.

davidn3600 (2,787 posts)
11. My point is that premiums are based on statistics

When an insurance company writes a policy, they base the premium on the risk of the payout over the lifetime of the policy. Just living in a certain zipcode could increase your premium.

Women use the health services more often than men. So insurance companies made women pay more money. Is it women's fault? No. But is it fair to make men pay more money for that? It's not men's fault either.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4757554

i bring up this post because your claims of being fair minded on this are shown to be false when one looks at the many posts on gender equity issues in recent months (i know this because many have been in my threads).

[davidn3600]

241. What does that have to do with what's being discussed here?

That post was about insurance. And I was explaining about how an insurance company prior to ACA determined premiums and why women might be paying more than men for that insurance. Feminists made a big stink about the one and ONLY form of insurance where women pay a higher premium. And then completely ignored the fact that men are paying higher premiums than women in practically every other form of insurance. I was pointing out hypocrisy. In the name of equality...wouldnt a campaign to make it illegal to discriminate on gender on ALL forms of insurance been a better thing to do?

But this really has absolutely nothing to do with what we are talking about in this thread.

No where have I ever supported unequal wages. I've attempted to explain multiple times why a wage gap may exist today. But I have never said the gap should exist for equal work.

[CreekDog]

257. Gender equality has everything to do with your posts here and on women's health insurance

if you don't want your past posts rationalizing discrimination against women to be brought up, i'd recommend not posting and reposting such rationalizations in the first or second place.

[bettyellen]

296. yes, shrugging and saying "that is society" is the same as saying blacks have innate tendencies and

preferences that explain away our horrible history of slavery and abuse they have suffered in the USA. Women were also chattle and considered men's property- That "was society" and you'd no doubt be making excuses for that because it follows the "reasoning" you give for excusing inequality.
If you don't want people to think you are totally sexist, then you should stop making excuses for sexism- instead of propping it up as something "natural" or "ineveitable", which is complete bullshit.

[bettyellen]

28. in math and science, it is very very common.

[kmlisle]

88. My own experience in STEM

I have a biology and chemistry double major with graduate work in biochem and biology. Got hired at a rural milk plant lab with a staff that was all women. We set up tests, maintained standards and did daily testing for contamination and had a male traveling FDA agent who did oversight. He was collegial and we saw him every week or so. But the women ran the lab including the quality checks and setting up new protocols which require an background in chemistry. We were all paid several dollars an hour less than the male janitors in the plant.

I worked there several years until I got a teaching job. My replacement was male and when he came in all the salaries went up to match those out in the plant. I missed a substantial raise of several dollars an hour! By the way we were Teamsters and had tried to go through the union to get equal pay so they used that as the pretext to give the raise when men started working in the lab.

I hope my daughter's opportunities are better and believe they are. But 25 years in middle and high school classrooms teaching science showed me that as the girls reach puberty and show an interest in boys being "too smart" is considered a turn off to the boys, especially in the male areas of math and physical science.

We have a long way to go and it is going to require systemic change.

[bettyellen]

90. Yeah, when we ALL have anecdotal stories like that, you know there is something more at work!

Even in my business, which has a lot of women- things were much the same. When I was looking for an assistant, my boss told me to throw out mens' resumes because we were paying shit, and no worthwhile man would take that pay. (someone here will undoubtedly spin this as unfair to men, instead of an admission by my boss that they were different pay scales)
When I quit, they hired a man with 14 years less experience at the same salary. My boss told me this to piss me off, but he shot himself at the foot. The guy didn't know the nuts and bolts of the business and screwed up right and left. He refused to let me train him, LOL. He lasted six months and ruined a few accounts along the way. His management styke was to flirt or cajole people into doing his work for him. Ultimately no one had time for that shit, and he sank like a stone. Boy, my boss showed me, what I worth, huh?

[hfojvt]

109. public accolades? By whom?

When did this happen?

I was getting public accolades? Maybe from parents, but the home isn't really that public. From teachers? From peers?

As it turned out though, I might have been better served to work more on my basketball instead of math. If I had been as good at football or basketball as I was at math, I'd have gotten a 4 year scholarship somewhere.

[bhikkhu]

178. An ambitious young intelligent male is a admired as a role model anywhere

for other males, and generally seen as a "catch" for any female.

An ambitious young intelligent female is (a culturally realistic thought process would go) - out of the ordinary, not so much a role model as a question mark - what does she really want? Is she too pushy, is she difficult, is she trying to go places she doesn't belong? What kind of wife or mother would she make? Likely there will be problems....

I wouldn't under-estimate the drive and desire of any young person to "find their place" in the adult world and society in general. Clear paths and expectations are there, but they certainly diverge according to gender.

[lumberjack_jeff]

111. Girls get better grades in all topics - including math and science.

http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2014/04/girls-grades.aspx

It is only when students are tested to determine their level of knowledge that it becomes apparent that the boys learned more in the subject.



Apparently teachers don't feel this obligation to cater to fragile male egos.

"Public accolades"? Not so much.

[Mondavi]

227. SAT are certainly suspect as catering to the male ego

and teachers (both male and female) were found to be catering to the fragile male egos in classrooms.

They were doing it without even recognizing what they were doing in many cases it seemed so natural to them.

[BainsBane]

282. Those standardized tests have been proven to have gender and race bias

Additionally, they have no predictive value of performance in college. That is why some colleges no longer use them in deciding on admission.

Even if the tests were accurate, they are meant to test aptitude, not what students have learned. The makers don't claim they are a measurement for what students have been taught. You entire argument is entirely without merit. You show males do better on SAT exams. That is all. Whites do better on the tests too. Yet those tests say absolutely nothing about how a student has preformed or will perform in the future.

You of course will ignore this and continue to repeat the same bogus claims time and time again.

[lumberjack_jeff]

286. No. Math has neither a gender nor racial bias. n/t

[BainsBane]

288. It isn't just math

You obviously haven't taken the test yourself. How else could you concoct a story that the SAT tests what students have learned?
Suddenly the only academic research you care about is to support male supremacist arguments. There are hundreds of articles on the subject of bias in aptitude tests and the SAT in particular. http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=gender+bias+sat&btnG=&as_sdt=1%2C24&as_sdtp=
You must have worked hard to avoid reading about gender and race bias in standardized testing. I expect you have read about but decided you would ignore it since it doesn't fit your narrative of how downtrodden and oppressed white men are.

If males are so much smarter than females, why do you whine constantly about how boys are falling behind in school? What is the point of your proposing a council for boy's? (Add to that the proposal for a department of men's health, when you have to know the vast majority of medical research is done on men's health.) http://www.democraticunderground.com/111413758
To further institutionalize discrimination? Your proposal to move the Democratic Party to the right of the GOP is not only ridiculous, it would be an unconstitutional violation of the Fourteenth Amendment. The Democratic Party is not going to implement official discriminatory practices because a few MRA types don't like to compete on an even playing field. The idea that the Dem Party would forgo their base and develop policies willfully hostile to women and Hispanics in order to cater to a few white men, a demographic in decline, is ridiculous. That politically suicidal strategy belongs to the GOP, while your proposals to reinstate legal discrimination against women is something even the GOP wouldn't propose, save for a few lunatics even too extreme for the Tea Party, like the one who recently lamented women having the right to vote.

I knew you'd ignore the evidence. That is what you always do when something doesn't fit your distorted worldview of how oppressed men are.

[BainsBane]

22. I have

Continually.

[LeftyMom]

23. Then you're not looking. nt

[Coventina]

25. It's very common in fundie families. My sister and I were raised this way.

And we're still in "recovery" mode.

[HangOnKids]

30. You Are Male

No surprise you haven't seen this.

[laundry_queen]

53. +1

It's how I was raised, and my parents weren't fundies of any kind. I'm also not over 50.

It's especially pronounced, IMO, if you have male siblings.

[Vashta Nerada]

85. Yes.

In my brother's high school science classes, he teaches that women should always serve men and never do science.



I'm reading a lot of stupid responses to what I posted and none of them offer proof of anything.

[HangOnKids]

95. Well Shit Howdy Aren't You Special?

[Vashta Nerada]

96. Thank you for providing links to prove me otherwise.

Oh. Wait.

Nevermind.

[HangOnKids]

98. Oh. Wait. Nevermind.

Want a link for that?

[seabeyond]

102. show where any woman ever coddled a mans ego? lol. nt

[bhikkhu]

180. Both of my very smart daughters, of dating age, defer to male priority in intelligence

Being smart isn't attractive, helping a male with homework or a project is always done with care not to appear to be know more or be better at anything, and in class they are more likely to be silent and "middle of the road" in a subject so as to not stand out. A girl who gets labeled as "too smart" pays immediately in social prestige and opportunities.

It drives me crazy and its not how I was raised, but I see and hear it regularly. My persistent objections over the years fall on deaf ears - whatever I say doesn't change the reality they face among their peers.

[seabeyond]

190. and i have two sons. regardless of teaching, i see the privilege and entitlement, with two boys...

that work very very hard to recognize their privilege and entitlement.

what will be interesting is the next couple decades cause even though we still act out the conditioned behaviors in so many ways, too many of us see and recognize and speak out loud.

i get your daughter. even married to a stand up guy, there was the stroking.

[bhikkhu]

198. I had a good conversation with my kids about it this evening

talking about the article. They were both - "that's totally true!" I doubt that they are going to change much, being much more inclined to fit in with their friends than become revolutionaries, but I think they appreciate that there is an overall awareness about it beyond our community, and they listened (which doesn't always happen) to me talk about the history of how some things came to be.

Definitely they don't feel beaten down or limited, and see the humorous side to the flawed world we all agree to live in. They went on quite a bit about different guys - who is "fragile", who doesn't mind if they need help even from a girl, who is really smart and nice too, and girls they admire who are really good at things. I feel better about the situation.

[seabeyond]

199. coolest bhik. thank you for sharing this experience. i think the best is to talk about it

and have awareness of it.

a little connection. time spent. all good stuff.

i do not imagine they will shift a whole lot, but, .... i betcha at a certain time in their life, they say enough, lol

[Vashta Nerada]

104. You make assertions...

you provide links.

That's how it works.

[HangOnKids]

105. You want a link to my opinion of you?

How flattering.

[Vashta Nerada]

120. Intelligent retort.

I really couldn't care less what you think of me.

[HangOnKids]

124. Oh it appears you do

Those rolley eyes are quite intelligent too.

[intaglio]

34. There's an old saying

"There's none as blind as those who will not see"

Think about the songs "Stand By Your Man" and "Son of a Preacherman"

Think on all the sitcoms where the competent woman has to give comfort to the ineffectual man, or where the "ditzy" woman is forgiven for messing up the work of the man.

Think of all the non-conformist Churches that still preach this role for the woman.

[Skidmore]

44. Then you haven't been paying attention because it exists.

[Marrah_G]

84. I see it all around us.

[SomethingFishy]

117. Really? I saw this today:

http://crooksandliars.com/2014/04/arizona-pastor-whoredom-childless-women

"It used to be a young women, she gets married, she has children, and that's her job," he lamented. "They literally count my wife as unemployed! She's not unemployed, she doesn't want to be employed. I mean, she's a wife, she's a mother."

Anderson said that danger of birth control was that it had "systemic effects" on a woman's health and her "character."

"Not only does birth control do damage to women, it hurts their body if they’re using the pills. And it also affects their character, causing them to be an idle, tattler, gossip, turning aside after Satan," he insisted.

Women would "get into sin" if they were not "busy" raising children, Anderson said.


Yeah the US doesn't discriminate against women, they don't shame women, they don't treat women as second class citizens.

[seabeyond]

121. Listen to that. Such horrible monsters us women are. I heard whoredom today.

How easy and often to call women whores. Raise all women are liars, culturally. And all that fails. Pms'in' makes us emotional and incompetent.

[seabeyond]

193. 164 recommends. i would say you are wrong. maybe you ought to listen to the vast majority. nt

[Egnever]

11. Who is we?

I am not raising my girl to do any of those things.

My girl is a rock star that can do whatever she want's. She is being raised to be proud and independant and shrinking violet doesnt fit anywhere in her upbringing.

Fuck that we shit.

[intaglio]

36. You are not - but what is the culture round her teaching her?

Think about all the little things that happen at school or on social media which reinforce the concepts discussed here.

[Harmony Blue]

77. Good post

my mother, my relatives, etc were never raised this way and they did not raise me this way.

[alp227]

130. Good for you. However, your style of parenting is the farm team

to the greater American culture that embraces and even rationalizes gender roles.

[Cleita]

18. And yet there is a group of so called feminists who feel that they must

feel shame, hunch their shoulders so their breasts aren't prominent, close their legs, cover themselves, not wear makeup because men might have a wankfest over it, AND they think every other woman in the world must do that too or or be attacked about their views until they are shamed into being obedient.

[LeftyMom]

21. Only in the straw feminism that exists in your mind.

[Cleita]

24. Please explain the straw thing. I notice it as a code word that pops up in

a lot of feminist posts here, however, it's meaningless and not insulting if one doesn't know what it means. Please I want to know what I'm being insulted about.

[LeftyMom]

27. Is google down? (link)

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-straw-feminist.htm

A straw feminist is the feminist version of the infamous straw man. A straw man is a person who is invented to prop up a point, usually by pulling together threads of the other side's arguments and beliefs, and by misrepresenting statements made by the other side. Often, a straw man is specifically designed to be easily attacked, with the creator leaving gaps in the fictional creation's logic which can be assaulted with ease, thereby “disproving” the points made by the other side.

In the sense of feminism, a straw feminist or strawfeminist is a fictional “feminist” character who is used to make arguments about the feminist movement as a whole. A straw feminist can take a number of forms. She may be referenced in an article criticizing the feminist movement, for example, or she may appear in the form of a sockpuppet, a fake user account used to make inflammatory comments on a message board or blog community.

The typical straw feminist promotes radical ideas: she says that all men are evil, advocates castration for rapists, and makes inflammatory statements which are more representative of the fringe of the feminist movement than of mainstream feminist. She is the “fat, man-hating lesbian” who inhabits the nightmares of conservative commentators, embodying every imaginable stereotype about the feminist movement. The form of feminist represented by the straw feminist is shrill, strident, and often lacking in logic, in sharp contrast with the thoughtful, outspoken, and often very logical face of the feminist movement.

Most feminists are simply trying to create equal rights for women, and to promote respect for women which protects them from de facto sexism as well as de jure issues. They want to see equal pay for equal work, for example, or crackdowns on harassment of women in the street, on public transit, and in the workplace. Real feminists come in a wide range of socioeconomic classes, shapes, sizes, and relationships, just like everyone else.

[TBF]

46. ...

[seabeyond]

51. that is excellent leftymom. i have not seen that. perfect explanation. nt

[Starry Messenger]

138. Yay!

[intaglio]

35. Obviously you have never heard of a "Straw Man Argument"

So it is not meaningless and insulting - it is just you who has not bothered to pay attention.

[Cleita]

94. Oh I have which is why I'm asking.

The accusations are never about a straw man but about straw strewn or thrown about, never a bout a straw man and never is there an actual straw man argument involved so I guess it must be code for the sycophants who use this phrase. However, since I don't know what it stands for I'm asking a question and obviously not getting a straight answer.

[seabeyond]

100. some people, both gender, disagreed with you. pissed you off...

i think you made some knee jerk comments. hurt a longtime poster. people recognized. got some hides.

and now you are carrying that along.

let it go.

or not.

[intaglio]

123. You have made a false characterisation feminists

This false characterisation is made with deliberate intent to dismiss the subject of the OP. The object of this is that the false character can be attacked rather than the substance of the argument; this is much as straw men are constructed as targets for soldiers to attack rather than the real enemy - hence the name of this type of fallacy. There is also a degree in which your assertion is an ad hominem argument - attacking the speaker or the source of the speaker's arguments because of personal flaws.

This fraudulent argument is such a common feature of discussions about modern feminism that it had attracted a general label of "straw feminist" argument.

Now the normal methods that are used by persons who use this deceptive argument once the fraud has been called out are
1) to seek refuge in false definitions;
2) claim ignorance of the argument made against them;
3)falsely asserting that they have never heard of terms being used in their correct manner;
4) asserting that they, issuer of the lie, is just concerned (tone trolling);
5) that they, the issuer of the lie, is being subject to personal attack.

It may also be that a person similar to yourself will make an appeal to authority, on the lines of "most women don't support hard line feminism" or that "confident women don't feel that way," which combines the elements of the No True Scotsman fallacy with the ad hom attack.

[seabeyond]

129. Too fuggin' interesting both lefty and you educating us with this. Ha. Didn't know. Thanks. Nt

[gollygee]

125. Your post was a classic straw man argument

You make up a situation that doesn't exist (construct a straw man) and tear it down.

18. And yet there is a group of so called feminists who feel that they must

feel shame, hunch their shoulders so their breasts aren't prominent, close their legs, cover themselves, not wear makeup because men might have a wankfest over it, AND they think every other woman in the world must do that too or or be attacked about their views until they are shamed into being obedient.
Tell me why. Tell me true. How did I pick a lemon in a garden that I thought only peaches grew?

There are no feminists, so-called or otherwise, who feel that way. That is a straw man you constructed. You chose to construct a straw man and tear it down rather than responding to the situation that is actually being discussed.

[BainsBane]

201. straw man defined

Google really is an amazing thing. You should try it sometime.

This is a simple definition:

strawman

You misrepresented someone's argument to make it easier to attack.

By exaggerating, misrepresenting, or just completely fabricating someone's argument, it's much easier to present your own position as being reasonable, but this kind of dishonesty serves to undermine honest rational debate.

Example: After Will said that we should put more money into health and education, Warren responded by saying that he was surprised that Will hates our country so much that he wants to leave it defenceless by cutting military spending.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman

[bettyellen]

26. please link to this group-because I have never heard of feminsts encouraging women to hide like that

sounds pretty nutty and fringe- where did you see this?

[Gravitycollapse]

29. I'm glad at least that you made them "so called" because that means you can conceive...

Of an alternative. That alternative realm is probably where the feminists you speak of actually exist.

[gollygee]

68. Who are those?

I've never in my life heard any feminists with those views. I think you're making up a huge strawman. Or strawfeminist in this case.

[Gormy Cuss]

79. Are you serious? "...feel that they must feel shame...etc?"

That entire first sentence has the motivation backwards. 180 degrees. Feminists and others point out that many women feel shame because of societal pressure to take responsibility for men's sexual attitudes. AND with few exceptions these same feminists and others have no interest in adding to the shame of woman over it.

[AverageJoe90]

173. Sad but damn true, unfortunately. People like that ARE out there.

In fact, there's some radfems who will go above & beyond the regular attacks slam their enemies. There is a really nice lady on YT who goes by divinity33372 who happens to be a sex-positive (Latina) feminist who was viciously attacked by Diana Boston(one of the most well-known YT sex-negative feminists), a few years back, including even the usage of racial slurs by the latter(I believe "chola" was one of them).

So no, contrary to the complaining of some, it's not a straw man(besides, you didn't say or imply that ALL feminists were like this, am I right?). Most feminists are indeed quite civil(I'm one myself, btw), but there ARE a few who aren't so likable.

[Cleita]

176. No I wasn't talking about all feminists. Actually those

pseudo feminists aren't the majority. They are the ones who make the most noise though lately it seems. Yet, they don't support all women when not in lockstep agreement with them. For example two American women, Medea Benjamin and Lara Logan were abused in Egypt. It seems though since they don't like Medea's and Lara's politics, some said they deserved the treatment they got. Really? I was shocked and btw I wasn't referring to just this attitude sometimes on DU but on other comment type social media as well.

[AverageJoe90]

177. Okay, I figured that was the case.

(BTW, my apologies if I gave off the wrong impression.)

[seabeyond]

191. you have heard feminist say lara logan deserved being raped? i need clarity on this statement of

yours.

even ONE feminist has say logan deserved rape?

[BainsBane]

200. Oh, you mean the ones who have the audacity to disagree with you?

Who don't like to call rape survivors liars or tell African American members it's not their place to join conversations about race? http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4581182

Are those the people you so despise? You mean the one's who don't follow you instructions to stay in the women's room where we belong? http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4580824

pseudo feminists aren't the majority. They are the ones who make the most noise though lately it seems. Yet, they don't support all women when not in lockstep agreement with them.
For example two American women, Medea Benjamin and Lara Logan were abused in Egypt. It seems though since they don't like Medea's and Lara's politics, some said they deserved the treatment they got.

Funny, I recall something very similar from you. Why is it you think Lara Logan deserves more respect that rape survivors on this board?

http://sync.democraticunderground.com/10024535851#post12
http://sync.democraticunderground.com/10024535851#post22

You make clear you don't like her politics--having the nerve to discuss issues like rape you think should be kept quiet since it's "divisive." And what is it that you are doing here? Why is it that you so often target feminists and other subaltern groups rather than those who wield power? And what entitles you to pronounce who is a real vs. "pseudo-feminist."

I guess you missed the hundreds of members who recently stood with HOF in speaking out against misogyny. The lie that only a few members care about those issues was plainly exposed a couple of months ago. http://sync.democraticunderground.com/125538236
http://sync.democraticunderground.com/10024522226

Somehow those DUers don't devote their energies to attacking feminists. Are they "pseudo" as well?

Truth be told, I don't even know what issues it is you disagree with, since you criticize fictional feminists for what you yourself have done. You claim to dislike "noise" and divisiveness but engage in plenty of it yourself. It appears to me you resent the fact that some women have the audacity to speak in ways you don't approve of, and your antipathy is so great you've decided to invent from whole cloth stories about how you think they (we) look and spew some BS about telling everyone else how to dress and stand. But like climate change deniers, facts simply don't matter to those committed to their retrograde views of the world.

[JTFrog]

247. "Yet, they don't support all women when not in lockstep agreement with them."

Wow.

I can't believe you are wading back into this argument. You've been incredibly nasty to feminists on DU even after stating how important feminist causes were to you back in the day. So you don't like a group of feminists here on DU and you attack them over and over. You belittle them. You call them liars. You even call them "pseudo feminists". Because you don't agree with their politics.

I don't think you have any grasp on this issue at all.

Just sayin...

[seabeyond]

252. you got it. i was looking for a gif to express that. came to this, and laughed.

and then laughed some more. the kid thought he had it too. lol. the little girl. oh the trust. too cute. i laugh.

tis friday. finally friday.

i am ready to play

sigh... loved this one too



but i really just wanted this one.

[MineralMan]

260. 'Some said?'

Please link to something where some feminists held that point of view. I don't believe that at all. You are the one claiming it, so it is your responsibility to provide evidence of it.

"Some said" is almost always not backed up by information on who the "some" were.

Can you back up your statement, Cleita?

[Cleita]

265. I can but I won't on this board which is why I speak in the most general of terms

or the swarm descends on me as they already are beginning to. Anyone with search engine knowledge can look it up for themselves.

[MineralMan]

266. Uh-huh...

Right...

[Cleita]

268. Your response is exactly what I'm referring to. It would be a waste of time

like arguing with your tea party relatives at thanksgiving. No one really wants to know the truth.

[MineralMan]

269. I see. Well, OK, then.

No support; no belief.

[JTFrog]

294. I think your blatant bashing of feminists you don't agree with on a democratic forum

is a perfect demonstration of a typical argument with tea party relatives. It's mind boggling and a complete waste of time.

[intaglio]

280. The swarm decends on you

Why; my,my; you poor little victim. You really cannot see that many women, real women (not the imaginary warriors you dream are those disagreeing with you) find your evasions and fallacious arguments little more than a tired joke.

BTW did you read my response at post 123 above
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024893303#post123

You do realise that you are now at stage 5 in the avoidance of real discussion I itemised

5) that they, the issuer of the lie, is being subject to personal attack.

[BainsBane]

197. Really? Who would that be?

Are you talking about anyone on DU? If so, how do you imagine you know what they look like? What links do you have to support any of your allegations, particularly the assertion that they believe no women should wear make up or maintain good posture?

[Lex]

267. In your fantasy world

this is how feminism exists. Thanks for the laugh.

[Cleita]

271. Laugh away. I'm laughing myself at the clap trap that

passes for feminism these days.

[cyberswede]

281. OMG

You can't be for real.

[bettyellen]

297. Shame? what complete and utter bullshit. either you completely misunderstood or you are making

this shit up. Either way, the only one who should be ashamed is you. Seriously, don;t even try this BS here, we are too smart for these lies to go unanswered. You've no credibility on this issue.

[eridani]

20. Which is NOT going to happen to Lola! n/t

[Zorra]

33. We're not gonna take it...

anymore

OH WE'RE NOT GONNA TAKE IT
NO, WE AIN'T GONNA TAKE IT
OH WE'RE NOT GONNA TAKE IT ANYMORE

WE'VE GOT THE RIGHT TO CHOOSE AND
THERE AIN'T NO WAY WE'LL LOSE IT
THIS IS OUR LIFE, THIS IS OUR SONG
WE'LL FIGHT THE POWERS THAT BE JUST
DON'T PICK OUR DESTINY 'CAUSE
YOU DON'T KNOW US, YOU DON'T BELONG

OH WE'RE NOT GONNA TAKE IT
NO, WE AIN'T GONNA TAKE IT
OH WE'RE NOT GONNA TAKE IT ANYMORE

OH YOU'RE SO CONDESCENDING
YOUR GALL IS NEVER ENDING
WE DON'T WANT NOTHIN', NOT A THING FROM YOU
YOUR LIFE IS TRITE AND JADED
BORING AND CONFISCATED
IF THAT'S YOUR BEST, YOUR BEST WON'T DO

OH.....................
OH.....................
WE'RE RIGHT/YEAH
WE'RE FREE/YEAH
WE'LL FIGHT/YEAH
YOU'LL SEE/YEAH

OH WE'RE NOT GONNA TAKE IT
NO, WE AIN'T GONNA TAKE IT
OH WE'RE NOT GONNA TAKE IT ANYMORE

OH WE'RE NOT GONNA TAKE IT
NO, WE AIN'T GONNA TAKE IT
OH WE'RE NOT GONNA TAKE IT ANYMORE
NO WAY!

OH.....................
OH.....................
WE'RE RIGHT/YEAH
WE'RE FREE/YEAH
WE'LL FIGHT/YEAH
YOU'LL SEE/YEAH

WE'RE NOT GONNA TAKE IT
NO, WE AIN'T GONNA TAKE IT
WE'RE NOT GONNA TAKE IT ANYMORE

WE'RE NOT GONNA TAKE IT, NO!
NO, WE AIN'T GONNA TAKE IT
WE'RE NOT GONNA TAKE IT ANYMORE

JUST YOU TRY AND MAKE US
WE'RE NOT GONNA TAKE IT
COME ON
NO, WE AIN'T GONNA TAKE IT
YOU'RE ALL WORTHLESS AND WEAK
WE'RE NOT GONNA TAKE IT ANYMORE
NOW DROP AND GIVE ME TWENTY
WE'RE NOT GONNA TAKE IT
A PLEDGE PIN
NO, WE AIN'T GONNA TAKE IT
OH YOU ON YOUR UNIFORM
WE'RE NOT GONNA TAKE IT ANYMORE
---
Thanks, Will

[Laelth]

41. Quite true.

But the truth of the matter is that women do most of the child-rearing, and this is true across the globe. I wonder why they would do this to their daughters. There might be a good reason, unless we assume that mothers have just been stupid throughout history, and I am not willing to assume that.



-Laelth

[chrisa]

54. It's cultural. There's no reason to do it.

Women doing most of the child care is going away, and that's also cultural. What we have are left over cultural practices from the past that we keep doing because "that's the way it's always been done." That's also why Conservatism is a flawed ideology - they're nothing more than a part of "let's not change anything!"

[Laelth]

58. I find that explanation less-than-satistactory.

Social norms and practices evolve over hundreds (or thousands) of years. They exist for good reasons even though we may no longer understand the reasons that caused certain cultural practices evolve. Patriarchy, as a cultural practice, exists for a reason. It may have outlived its usefulness, or it may not have done so, but the fact that many, many mothers still teach it and enforce it causes me to question whether or not it is still useful to us. It must still be useful, I am forced to conclude. Otherwise, most mothers rearing children are just stupid ... and I can't bring myself to believe that. That does not comport with my understanding of the mothers I have encountered in my lifetime.

-Laelth

[chrisa]

62. There really is no point to some things.

Just because society does something, that doesn't mean that it's useful. In a perfect world with perfectly rational people it would, but people aren't perfectly rational. That argument could also be used for discrimination based on sex or race - "It's always been done that way, so there must have been a reason to do it."

[Laelth]

64. You may be right.

Or, you may be wrong. I think it's more useful to believe that people are intelligent, rational actors, and that there's a reason for every cultural practice that we have. We're rational, after all, and if there weren't a good reason to do the things we do, then we wouldn't do them.

I believe women are intelligent, rational actors. If they rear their children in patriarchy and enforce patriarchy, I want to give them the benefit of the doubt. There's probably a good reason why they are rearing their children the way they do.

-Laelth

[seabeyond]

65. really?

[Laelth]

67. Yep. Really.

And I am very glad you read what I had to say in this thread. Thank you.

-Laelth

[seabeyond]

76. you are welcome. lol. nt

[chrisa]

71. I believe that individuals can be rational actors.

By "can be," I mean that they have potential to be. They aren't always rational.

Society as a whole, unfortunately, is irrational. We see this in the mob mentality, or events like The Holocaust. When responsibility is spread out or removed in a population, they will believe anything - especially if times are hard.

A rational person would agree that murder is wrong, or that discrimination is bad. On the other hand, they may see nothing wrong with living in a murderous, discriminatory society. It's paradoxical. On the otherhand, by definition, that would probably make them irrational.

[seabeyond]

78. my gosh so many example in every day life. fox news and repugs. all over the place argues the

conclusions laelth comes to. his/her own argument is an example how untrue it is.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

87. I think you made a good point here =

There's probably a good reason why they are rearing their children the way they do.

I think it has something to do with the survival instinct and the group/herd mentality. Very ingrained.

[bettyellen]

213. it is based on economic and safety reasons. most women women couldn't earn enough on their own...

and single women were treated as pariahs, their choices nun or whore. we have come a long way in the last century, just not far enough.

[LittleBlue]

97. It stands to reason that the non-patriarchal societies died out

or never existed in the first place.

I would guess it's mainly because patriarchal societies are more aggressive. The warlike people generally destroyed or subjugated the less aggressive peoples. The Romans and Anglo-Saxons did this to the original tribal Britons, and then the Danes did it to them, and then the Normans did it to them. Each one was successively better at warfare, each one a more aggressive people.

If matriarchal societies ever existed, they were out-competed by patriarchal ones. It cannot be purely cultural, as even societies separated by over 10,000 years and whole oceans (Native Americans) have these practices. Natural selection and all that. They were the most competitive.

So it stands to reason that societies where women raised children were the most competitive. And you see this in nature as well, although some animals are matriarchal. We just happen to be animals that tend to let women raise children. Actually I'm struggling to think of a single animal, even the extremely matriarchal elephants, where child-rearing isn't done by mothers.

That's the best way to think about it, IMO.

EDIT- Also, as long as everyone is on the topic of girls, can we please spare a thought for the 234 kidnapped girls currently being sold into sexual slavery in Nigeria? They are being sold, as we speak, for $12 per girl. No exaggeration, this is happening right now. 10% of our oil imported is from Nigeria, and the Goodluck Jonathan government is doing precisely nothing to help them. This would not be allowed to stand if these were white girls in Europe or the US.

PLEASE help by demanding that we assert ourselves in this. There are more replies/recs in this thread than on all the threads about these abducted girls combined.

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/work-un-and-nigerian-government-bring-home-girls-kidnapped-boko-haram/fFcLj7s2

We only have 3,000 signatures of the required 100,000, and it's looking like we won't make it by May 25.

[Demeter]

56. Fear of Physical and Economic Abuse, of course

Teaching their daughters how to survive in unmitigated patriarchy. Just as slaves were taught how to appease their masters and keep a low profile...

[Bluenorthwest]

57. And no offense to straight folks who raise their kids this way, but fragile egos

don't come from nowhere either. If your culture is raising fragile minds and subservient minds it is a failure of the culture and a failure of the labor force that is doing so much damage in raising their children. It is not the fault of the children, but of the parents who raise them to be that way.

[Harmony Blue]

69. Exactly

apparently a lot of people buy this idea that males have fragile egos. Maybe the parents are to blame? But that is taboo on DU so tread carefully.

[TBF]

45. My husband looks at me funny

when he hears me encouraging my daughter to hold off on getting married and worry about getting her own company started instead. She is 11 and we are in Texas. She has conservative and biblical messages coming from other corners of her life living down here, so I do what I can to feed alternative ideas into her head.

[Adrahil]

60. Nice post.

WE raise our girls to both protect themselves from the "uncontrollable" desires of men, AND to placate them whenever possible.

My only child is a daughter, and my wife and I are doing our very best to prevent that. It's DAMNED hard, because she is surrounded by a culture that that not only encourages it, but practically demands it.

[seabeyond]

82. those in denial, womens mag articles, articles in men mag telling women how to keep a man, men are

from mars gray, books on relationship ALL discuss male fragile ego and how it is a womans job to coddle and stroke, cause he has it so tough in the real world he needs that from his woman.

a handful of men can go thru the thread denying it, but it is in our face, or was in the past (i do not pay attention now. let that one go a while ago) in written form, lecture, print.

[upaloopa]

83. My wife was never taught any of that

I thank my mother-in-law and my wife's step dad for the way there raised my wife.
We both say that one reason we have been together for 30 years is that neither of us wants to run the other's life.

[Iggo]

86. We raise men to have fragile egos, and to expect all women to be their mommy. (n/t)

[lumberjack_jeff]

89. Are men's egos fragile? Is that a question worth discussing?

If we fix the factors that cause men to die of suicide four times as often, perhaps the egos might not be so fragile that they require so much catering.

Or perhaps the premise is false - if "their fragile egos" were in fact catered to, one wouldn't expect to see suicide hit men so disproportionately.

The US gender balance in suicide is not the case everywhere. In latin america for instance, women are more frequently suicide victims.

[bettyellen]

116. In Latin America, mens egos are coddled pretty thouroughly....

men are becoming less coddled as women have taken on more responsibilities outside the home. they need to learn that women cannot manage their entire emotional and home lives for them. That used to be the norm, and it is not anymore.

[Skittles]

127. LOL

you really, REALLY do not get it

suicide has NOTHING to do with FRAGILE EGOS

[BainsBane]

295. MRAs are evidence

of the most fragile.

As for suicide: gun policy is what makes suicide so easy in the US, and men are far more likely than women to use guns. Guns have a 95% lethality rate, whereas pills, favored by women, actually have a low lethality rate. Suicide is in the vast majority of cases caused by mental illness. In sum: More men own guns. When they become suicidal, a gun makes it all too easy to kill themselves.

[hamsterjill]

91. While this is certainly true, I know one father who didn't raise his daughters that way.

Thank you very much, Daddy!

[imthevicar]

92. And this is news!?

Last edited Thu May 1, 2014, 07:11 PM - Edit history (2)

Any father not teaching His Daughter to stand on her own, and not giving her the means to do so, is a fool and an Idiot!

[Waiting For Everyman]

93. We raise girls to think that shaking their ass in a guy's face is liberated.

I can't think of anything that could be "catering to" males more than that attitude does.

People today are so busy calling each other out and critiquing each other non-stop, they haven't noticed that they're neck-deep in bullshit. It's an amazing spectacle, but nothing surprises me anymore -- not about our capacity to become enthralled with ludicrous, self-destructive ideas, at least.

People today are so socially ignorant and primitive, they don't even know how to relate to each other at all anymore. They're only into fucking and shooting people, and stealing, and that's about it for human interaction.

People are lovin' it though, so I guess they have what they want. It's all about the lowest common denominator today. But on the plus-side, at least it's an easy world to succeed in though, with such a low bar to meet... as long as one has no ethics, scruples, discretion, taste, or common sense, that is. But who needs that old shit, right? ( )

(by "people" I mean the mass-public, or people in aggregate, the herd as a whole)

[SomethingFishy]

119. Actually, it seems to me that

many women are "shaking their ass in a mans face" not because it's liberating but because it's one of the few ways a woman who can't afford college can make enough money to support herself and possibly her family...

Or they could wait tables for 2.15 an hour and hope that they actually make enough tips to keep the electric turned on for another month.

[alp227]

133. such over the top BS...

ANYTHING suggesting that it's OK to love someone before marriage is "liberating" if one is from a patriarchal, radically religious culture that believs "sex is only for procreation" or whatever. The thing is, the Christian right for DECADES has shut down any attempt in our public schools to teach kids what healthy sexuality is, in favor of the Bush administration's epic failure of abstinence-only education (or a dumbed-down sex ed in other parts).

[VWolf]

99. THIS dad does no such thing

My daughters are growing up to be strong, opinionated, intelligent leaders ... and (hopefully) examples for others to follow.

[Demeter]

110. True story--ongoing, don't know how it ends

4 children, two each, raised in nearly authoritarian household (only missing that ole-time religion).

Girls go out, get educations, jobs and independence ASAP. They were expected to do all that (it was the 60's) AND cater to the man, too.

The boys---not such good outcomes. They were treated as the princes, while the girls were the scullery maids. So of course their egos are fragile! No adversity. Also, no overcoming adversity.

Parents are dead. Brother tries pushing the Patriarchy button on his sisters.


IT DOESN'T WORK!


Imagine that....as if Sis and I have any intention of snapping to and doing whatever stupid thing he wants, especially if it hurts us and our families.

[Sissyk]

112. This is true.

But, what can we do about parents that still raise their children this way? I say children; because if some are still raising their daughters to believe they need to cater to the egos of men, those same parents are raising their sons to believe their egos are fragile.

Thank goodness I wasn't raised that way. Thank goodness my husband wasn't raised that way. Our sons are not being raised that way, and neither are my nieces and nephews.

Again, how do we change it? It has to start with parents if change is going to work.

Will, I know you are not raising Lola that way, so do you have a solution if one is to be had?

[seabeyond]

113. discussion, understanding, leading to awareness is a big step. dontcha think? nt

[SunSeeker]

114. It is not that men's egos are more fragile, it is men's power over women.

Vulnerable women coddle men's egos as a self-preservation tactic.

[seabeyond]

115. right on.... that is why i say, it is not good for women. but damaging for men. nt

[azmom]

171. Okay, I get it

Now. Thanks for that.

[onecaliberal]

118. I did not raise my daughters

to do any of those things.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

126. There are lots of helpless men out there that can barely feed themselves.

Their mamas waited on them hand and foot, waited on daddy hand and foot. Mama never taught them to cook and clean and wash their own clothes, because that was "woman's work".

Then they have to get a mail order bride to wait on them, because American women get educations and are too "uppity" to be household slaves.

I know a woman dentist whose father thought she would be a dental hygienist.
When he found out, when she graduated, that she was a D.D.S., a real dentist, he blew a fuse and got mad as hell at her because she wasn't supposed to do that. Women were not supposed to be doctors or dentists. True story. She is in her sixties now.

Her older sister said when they were little that he told her he wouldn't play with her because she was a girl. Older sister has been an attorney for many years now. Turns out daddy had a secret second family with sons, that older sister only found out about a couple of years ago.

I was told as a kid on the one hand to coddle men and not appear too smart, and on the other hand told I was brilliant because I could read when I was three and had a really high IQ when I took a Stanford-Binet at age 5. 3 SDs above normal (145).

Talk about mixed messages, those put downs of girls and women are still very prevalent.

[LeftyMom]

202. My best friend's mom told me to pretend not to be so smart, so boys would like me more.

She's an award-winning teacher.

Her daughter got a full-ride scholarship to a very prestigious university, and dropped out after one semester to get a job as a maid, which was the job her mom had spent every spare moment of her life training her to do.

[laundry_queen]

236. ah yes, mixed messages.

I got that too...being guys don't like smart girls (also high IQ reading at 3 here too) but also being told guys don't like airheads. Or, being told guys don't like women who out earn them, but also guys don't like a girl who doesn't pull her own weight. Or being told I could be ANYTHING I wanted to be - ooops, except we won't pay for you to do THAT because you're a girl and you don't have a future in THAT...(THAT being hockey player, computer programmer and air traffic controller)

And on and on.

I also married someone whose mother did everything for him. I do mean everything. I should've clued in when we were dating and it was his turn to clean the apartment (him and his roommate had a schedule) and he made his mom do it on her visit. He 'saved up' all the dishes and laundry just for her! omg. Later on, when we had our first baby, I was overwhelmed with everything and he complained I wasn't doing his laundry quickly enough. So I decided to not do it at all...I told him he was an adult, he was perfectly capable of throwing in a load (I was so sleep deprived and stressed at the time, and he never helped out at all with the baby). He didn't...he wore his clothes over and over again and then when he went to visit he brought a suitcase full of dirty work clothes for his mother to wash. He was an only child so that probably also played into his learned helplessness. We aren't married anymore.

[WinkyDink]

131. And some of us speak our minds!

[Arugula Latte]

132. This is true. But we're teaching our daughter the opposite.

[Tansy_Gold]

139. It's not just what individual parents do

And it doesn't matter whether it's a "traditional" two parent household, single parent, same-sex parents, blended family of divorce, cohabiting, whatever. The type of family doesn't matter at all, and the actual parenting matters very little in the fact of a culture that promotes and maintains and encourages exactly the kind of patriarchal subservience Ms. Adichie describes.

Take a look at Jean Kilbourne's "Killing Us Softly" videos to get some idea of what our mass media flings in our faces day after day after day after day. Take a look, a good look, at every single magazine in the rack at the grocery store check-out. Just look at what's on the covers. And if you think what's inside is any different, I'll sell you ocean front property in Wyoming.

Pay attention to the images and ideas promoted in television, movies, popular music. What products are advertised when you long into your email? How much of what women are told via the popular culture is part of a general over-arching message that "You have to be beautiful. Beauty is more important than brains. Don't be shrill. GET A MAN."

Remember back -- those of you who are old enough but not yet senile -- when the mantra was "children learn what they live" and parents were cautioned not to be too discouraging in what they said to their children and more encouraging? We've been worried for the past week now about how Donald Sterling's horrible racist remarks may affect young African Americans or Latinos/as or children of mixed races. How do you think women feel when we're bombarded constantly with that 77-cents on the dollar meme? Every time a joke is made about it, we're hurt. We bleed a little inside, because we're reminded again that our culture, our economy doesn't value us as much as a man.

It's great that parents tell their daughters they're worth every penny a man is. It's great that parents encourage their daughters to be doctors and lawyers and engineers and geophysicists and secretaries of state and speakers of the house.

What's not so great is when people who really ought to know better sit here in smirking denial of something far too many of us live with constantly, every single fucking day of our lives.

Pope Francis is held up as such a wonderful reformer! He's not a bigot! He's moving the Roman Catholic Church forward! Bull fucking shit. He's still leaving women as second class worshipers, unfit to be priests, unfit to be anything other than healthy incubators. That, too, is part of the culture, even for non-Catholics, even for atheists, that continuously treats women as subservient to men.

Most of you don't have a clue, or not much of one. You think because YOU don't raise YOUR daughter that way that that's all you have to do. You think because YOUR daughter or YOUR sister or YOUR wife or YOUR girlfriend has a good job that all the patriarchal crap has gone away and you don't have to do anything else. You think because you can point to one shred of anecdotal evidence that it's all hunkey dory and you can go back to business as usual.

Men's reproductive rights are sacred. Viagra and Cialis and whatever other little pills are out there are as holy as a sanctified communion wafer. A woman's body in this country still belongs, in most cases, to the men in her life, whether it's her husband who has to sign off on a tubal ligation, a parent who has to approve birth control pills, a pharmacist who has the power to withhold Plan B, a judge who closes the only abortion clinic in 250 miles, a legislature that tells her she can't even get an abortion because she has no value except as a uterus-with-fetus.

Over and over and over and over, day after day after day after day, women and girls in this country are assaulted with the messages, subtle and not so subtle, that we are not worth as much as a man, and that therefore men are worth more. ANY man is worth more.

A rapist is sentenced to 30 days in jail because his 14-year-old victim is deemed an accomplice in her own victimization. Yes, there's outrage on DU, and yes, the sentencing is now being revisited and the rapist may have to serve two years. But the fact that a judge -- a JUDGE, for the love of all that's decent -- would hold a 14 year old girl as an accomplice in her own rape ought to tell you something about how pervasive the mindset is that women are here to serve men.

Does every man believe that? Maybe not. And there are good and fair men out there, no question.

But you cannot be good and fair and then deny the evidence that is around you all the time that the message is still the same as it was: Woman is less than man, woman is here to serve man.

Don't bother to start with the whole "fathers' rights" crap with me; I won't engage you. I have no respect for that any more than most of the FR crowd has any respect for women. Don't defend the Catholic Church or any other "faith" that denies women (or gays or anyone else) full personhood.

Chimamanda is correct, and she's not just talking about Africa or Muslim culture, the "third world" or uneducated women or any other subset. She speaks for all of us.

[seabeyond]

141. thank you for taking the time, for those that pretend and deny. it is in our face, every second of

our day. we know this. and for someone to say not happening. when it is so huge. so many ways.

i do not even bother anymore.

had another man call women on pills not having kids creating a nation of women that are whoredoms, whatever that is.

how often do we hear our elected official call men names. or even specifically address them as a gender.

the pill changes womens "character". culture teaches us, boys and girls, for a lifetime. women are liars.

our egos cannot afford to be fragile. you have no alternative but to be tough, pragmatic, strong.

anyway. thanks for putting SOME, just SOME of the most obvious out there. for the men just sure it is not happening, or not in their house, with their daughters.

[Tansy_Gold]

157. Because the message that goes to women . . .

. . .also goes to men.

Men are shown women as victims, women as objects, women as possessions, women as bodies. What lesson do they learn from that?

A woman is killed by her estranged husband outside a shelter. We say he is deranged, that he is an aberration, and so we do not have to take any societal responsibility. We do not have to look at the messages he's been sent all his life that HIS woman is HIS property.

Margaret Atwood perhaps said it best: Men are afraid women will laugh at them; women are afraid men will kill them.

Afraid of being laughed at? Hello? Can an ego get any more fragile than that? Donald Sterling, an ugly old billionaire with a hottie mistress of color gets all bent out of shape because she's putting pictures of herself with a black man on her Facebook page? How fragile is his ego? And if his is that fragile, with all his money and his power and his own little plantation where he so generously feeds and clothes and houses the slaves he virtually owns, what does it say about the fragility created in so many other male egos?

Not all, no not all. But how many? Or how few?

Don't even get me started on guns. Or executions.

I watched Magic Johnson on TV the other night, and I wept. I was hurt for him, because I knew what it felt like to be dismissed and humiliated for something over which I had no control. Wealthy, famous, powerful in his own right, he was still just another you-know-what in the eyes of the rich white man. And Charles Barkley said it too, and a few weeks ago, before Sterling, Neil DeGrasse Tyson said it.

They know it happens to women, in and out of sports. And maybe they do what they can to level the playing field. But it's not level yet. And because it's not level, ALL men benefit, even without trying, from the continued subjection, oppression, humiliation, devaluation of women.

Most men will not go into a job and wonder if they are being paid less because of their gender; most women will just automatically assume they probably are or at least could be. Most men will not worry that their looks or age will affect their hireability; most women know those may be the only factors that matter. Because of the prevailing culture, men take so many of these things for granted that they never think about them, they never consider that anyone else could have a different perspective or a different experience. That's institutionalized sexism exactly the way Donald Sterling's behavior is institutionalized racism. The bigotry, the privilege, it all becomes part of the fabric of the culture, invisible to all who don't actually make a point to look for and see it and acknowledge it when they find it rather than just tucking it back in its hiding place and hoping no one else notices.

Some of us notice.

[seabeyond]

161. such a good post. for me, to have a congressman stand on the floor and tell women to put an aspirin

between her knees.

saying women taking the pill "character" is effected

to have a man say a woman in the white house cannot do what a man can, on air

to have a woman testify in front of congress and have a famous mouth on radio call her a whore, slut, video of her having sex

a man saying women on the pill have created a whoredom

i can go on and on and on the way women and continually address in this nation, and this is just with govt and serious minded men. not talking entertainment, porn, internet and all the other places that trash women. on such a constant and regular basis.

and then men in this thread PRETEND, their ego is not constantly coddled. the fact alone, that woman are saying mens ego is coddled, is putting a stop to the coddling. cause i tell you, you can damn well bet, that man is NEVER to know, the woman is coddling. that would do damage to his ego.

[Tansy_Gold]

167. We should make a list

Of the threads currently on DU that illustrate men publicly denouncing women as compared to women denouncing men.

Let's see, there's one right now. Some Congressman is saying women should have the right to vote.

HOW THE FUCK DO YOU THINK THAT MAKES US FEEL, GUYS, KNOWING THAT THERE IS A MAN IN A POSITION OF AUTHORITY WHO HONESTLY BELIEVES WE SHOULDN'T HAVE THE RIGHT TO VOTE????

Now, where is the thread announcing a congresswoman has declared sans sarcasm that men shouldn't be allowed to vote?



Oh, and I noticed the sudden presence of a whole horde of crickets in this thread, too.

[seabeyond]

170. this is the POINT tansy. it has gotten so bad. it is said out loud. men shrug it off. as an

out liar. a crazy. an extremist. we have all kinds of names for the many many many men, that say shit like this many many many times, that us women are continually hearing, repeatedly. all the fuckin time. and we are told not to be bothered.

i want to know.

it was just the 90's we got legalized rape off the law in all our states. i tell my boys. do you understand, a man could LEGALLY rape a woman in some states, until the 90's. and congressmen still speak out that a husband cannot rape a wife, and that should not be a law.

it matters. girls, women always hearing this shit. all the fuggin time.

it matters our boys hearing this all the fuggin time.

[Tumbulu]

182. another incredible post- thank you nt

[mercuryblues]

274. Wonderfully put

thank you

[Tumbulu]

181. So sadly true and so well written- thank you!

I used to think because my mother was a feminist, that I was immune from the culture. WRONG! So sadly wrong and I see it now being played out for my daughter.

The only difference for her is that most every vet, doctor, professional of most kinds are women. I did not see all this modeling when I grew up. She does see it. It is my only hope, actually.

[seabeyond]

192. when we grew up, we were literally taught man was superior. smarter. more capable. women were loved,

but, we were not equal. not even a consideration. i can remember as an older teen, it dawning on me, regardless of the words i used, regardless of what we were all starting to say, i believed, that man was simply more competent and capable. was like me hitting my own head up against the wall.

i was so angry. the audacity of society to be so... insidious to feed and condition me with this crap when intellectually i knew better.

my parents did not play out that role. they did not feed it to me. the expected more out of me than brothers. my mother very vocal. my father the utmost in respectful and loving.

and yet still, society and culture had conditioned me.

think how easy it is for the boys, that are being rewarded, not punished like us girls. if we bought into it, then just how fuggin' easy will it be for boys.

[Scout]

275. got to be one of the very best posts i've seen on DU

since its beginning!

[Phentex]

279. Individual rec!

Perfect post!

[Marrah_G]

285. Bingo!

[seaglass]

287. Posts like yours are rare on DU, thanks for taking the time Tansy. Very well said. n/t

[MerryBlooms]

290. + 1,000,000

Beautifully stated.

[Raksha]

155. So very true. n/t

[hue]

172. K&R!!

[Nanjing to Seoul]

195. Harry Chapin - "why do the little girls"

Why did the little girls grow crooked
While the little boys grow tall?
The boys were taught to tumble
The girls told not to fall

The girls answered the telephones
The boys answered the calls
That's why little girls grew crooked
While the little boys grew tall

Why did the little girls grow crippled
While the little boys grew strong?
The boys allowed to come of age
The girls just came along

The girls were told to sing harmonies
The boys could all sing songs
That's why little girls grew crippled
While little boys grew strong

Why did the little girls come broken
While the little boys came whole?
And the little boys all were set aflame
And the girls told to fan the coals

The boys were told to be themselves
The girls were told play roles
That's why little girls came broken
While little boys came whole

Why were all the little girls all frightened
To be just what they are?
The boys were told to ask themselves
How high, how far?

The girls were told to reach the shelves
While the boys were reaching stars
That's why little girls were frightened
To be just what they are

And still they bled for us all as the moon rode the sky
They carried our seed when our need ran high
Then they fed all our children in the night as they cried
Womankind wept as mankind died

Why were all the little girls left hurtin'
When all the boys were done?
And then left there in the moonlight
When the boys went to meet the sun

And when the girls were open
Why had the little boys all won?
That's why little girls were hurtin'
When all the little boys were done

Why did the little girls grow crooked
While the little boys grew tall?
It's maybe because the little boys
Didn't ever have to grow up at all

Where are the little girls? Where are the little girls?
They all are grew crooked, they are crippled
We left broken, we made them frightened
They all are hurtin'

Were are the little girls? Were are the little girls?
You know all they're crooked, crippled, frightened
Broken, hurtin', the little girl
Yeah the little girl, where are the little girls?

Read more: Harry Chapin - Why Do Little Girls? Lyrics | MetroLyrics

[KitSileya]

233. I feel this is strongly linked to the fact that our perception is completely skewed

when it comes to women's participation in the public sphere. Research shows that we perceive a crowd consisting of 17% women and 83% men as having gender parity. If it consists of 33% women, then we perceive it as having a majority of women..... and the same goes for speaking turns and speaking time in classrooms, debates, discussions etc. In our culture, more than 33% women is considered as women taking over and pushing men out.

That means that a woman who takes half the turns in a dialogue, a woman presidential candidate that speaks an equal amount of minutes as her male rivals in a presidential debate, an organisation whose membership consists of 50% women is seen as unfair, as taking more than her share, as silencing men. Equality between men and women is considered unfair for men, is what these numbers seem to say.

So we have 20% women senators. 17% of tenured professors are women. 17% of cardiac surgeons are women. And we are taught unconsciously that equality is unfair....to men.

[seabeyond]

235. interesting kit... nt

[Tansy_Gold]

276. Here is a little test you can give to your friends.

They will need a piece of paper and something to write with.

Ask them to write down the name of the first person they think of who fits each category, one at a time:

1. Movie star
2. World class athlete
3. Politician
4. Great writer
5. Famous artist
6. Important scientist



When they've finished with those, ask them to now write down the name of the first WOMAN they think of who fits each category. Chances are that unless they're prepared/warned ahead of time, they'll answer the first six with all males. Yet none of the categories is defined by gender. And I'm sure most of you can come up with more categories, too.

THAT'S how systemic is the sexism in our culture, how pervasive is our cultural bias to perceive men as more important, more worthy, more of everything. And that's why those of us who aware of it, who fight back, who try to change it get so freakin' furious, outraged/enraged, to see the rampant ignorance that's displayed in some of these threads.

[KitSileya]

277. I wish I could click like on all your posts in this thread.

They're all bleeding awesome, just so you know it. Thank you for fighting the good fight.

I just learned a neighbor is transferring schools, has gotten a secret phone number, and is too afraid to return home because an older guy, who leads an organization in which she was a member, totally flipped when she got a boyfriend. Her life is being turned inside out because a guy has such a fragile ego he can't handle that a woman 20 years his junior isn't interested in him.

The rage I'm feeling right now.... If I knew the name of the guy, I would make it my life's mission to join this organization and get him ostracized, completely, from every such group in the city.

[Tumbulu]

298. so sadly true ! nt

[MO_Moderate]

240. I didn't raise my girl that way

I raised her to know how to punch and kick the fragile places.

[polly7]

278. K&R.

I wasn't raised this way ... exactly the opposite, really, but we all need to let every girl we have influence with know they're fully capable of whatever they dream of being and doing. Teaching them that being female means being strong and powerful, and to ignore the lies and attempts to diminish - so difficult in so many places in the world, but brave women are speaking out, despite the awful dangers they face for doing so.

Empower girls and women everywhere.

[Violet_Crumble]

291. Well said, polly...

Like you, I wasn't raised that way, and I've raised my daughter to be strong and independent. Every now and again I'll spot attempts to drag us down coz we're women, but neither of us put up with that sort of shit.

And doubly well said for mentioning women in other parts of the world where they're in grave danger when they speak up

[yurbud]

283. hmmmm...where did you send them when you were through?

I haven't had many caterers.

[seabeyond]

292. i agree with you sufrommich, even though you got your post hidden. why? god only knows.

cause with the garbage and filth this thread brought out, and some of us had to endure, you surely need a post hidden when you call out the filth. . just ... not.... coddling those egos.