HomeLatest ThreadsGreatest ThreadsForums & GroupsMy SubscriptionsMy Posts
DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Main » General Discussion (Forum) » This message was self-del...
Introducing Discussionist: A new forum by the creators of DU

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 10:37 PM

This message was self-deleted by its author

This message was self-deleted by its author (cthulu2016) on Fri Apr 18, 2014, 03:04 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

39 replies, 2286 views

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse

Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum
Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 39 replies Author Time Post
Reply This message was self-deleted by its author (Original post)
cthulu2016 Apr 2014 OP
socialist_n_TN Apr 2014 #1
joshcryer Apr 2014 #6
Agnosticsherbet Apr 2014 #2
Shrike47 Apr 2014 #3
cthulu2016 Apr 2014 #4
nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #7
JDPriestly Apr 2014 #13
Behind the Aegis Apr 2014 #16
REP Apr 2014 #22
Behind the Aegis Apr 2014 #26
leftynyc Apr 2014 #29
joshcryer Apr 2014 #9
Behind the Aegis Apr 2014 #12
Chemisse Apr 2014 #39
MohRokTah Apr 2014 #5
cthulu2016 Apr 2014 #8
MohRokTah Apr 2014 #10
JDPriestly Apr 2014 #14
Behind the Aegis Apr 2014 #17
nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #36
Raksha Apr 2014 #18
frazzled Apr 2014 #11
Behind the Aegis Apr 2014 #15
davidpdx Apr 2014 #19
Raksha Apr 2014 #23
Behind the Aegis Apr 2014 #24
Raksha Apr 2014 #27
Behind the Aegis Apr 2014 #28
Raksha Apr 2014 #30
LisaL Apr 2014 #20
Behind the Aegis Apr 2014 #25
MosheFeingold Apr 2014 #33
nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #37
steve2470 Apr 2014 #21
JoseGaspar Apr 2014 #31
joeybee12 Apr 2014 #32
JoseGaspar Apr 2014 #34
joeybee12 Apr 2014 #35
nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #38

Response to cthulu2016 (Original post)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 10:48 PM

1. Just goes to show that fascist tendencies are not confined to the west.........

in Ukraine. It's a very complicated situation all around. If this is even a quasi-governmental document and not something just printed off by some fascist group. However, these fascist ideas show why the workers of Ukraine need to arm themselves for self defense against the thugs, Ukrainian, Russian and home-grown, east and west.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to socialist_n_TN (Reply #1)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 11:12 PM

6. This is what happens when you label a whole group fascist.

Some Jews and some Ukrainians did side with Nazi's in the distant past, but when you label a whole movement that way, the entire group becomes Nazi's. By all accounts Maiden was made up of maybe 10% fascists and that's why the intrim government only has a couple of spots for them (appeasement of fascists is a bad thing though and they will likely be voted out, especially given how poorly they've handled Russia's incursions). Most of the intrim government is academics and artists and independent journalists.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to cthulu2016 (Original post)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 10:52 PM

2. It true, this is a very dangerous signal...

as to the type of government that has taken over.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to cthulu2016 (Original post)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 10:53 PM

3. I think it's a hoax or false flag. Too close to Hitler/Germany to be real ( I hope).

If they want Western intervention, that would be a guaranteed way to get it.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Shrike47 (Reply #3)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 11:06 PM

4. I have no theory, but agree it might be a phony story.

The OP is meant only to let folks know what the story (true or fake) even claims to say.

Some people are so primed by the "Nazi Ukrainian Government" narrative that they wouldn't even realie that the letter-sender (purported) here is the pro-Russian side, or *a* pro-Russian side.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to cthulu2016 (Reply #4)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 11:16 PM

7. I caught that

And quite brutally honest I hope El Al is prepared to evacuate people. (This is one reason, the prime reason, for Israel)

Given the history of the region, not just WW2, but going back to the Tsars, there is a likelihood of this being quite real. Registration of the Jewish population has a lllllloooooonnnngggg history in the region.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #7)

Thu Apr 17, 2014, 12:43 AM

13. Americans are unaware of the extent of anti-semitism in Europe and actually in the world.

It makes no sense. Jewish people haven't threatened anyone or anything over the past couple of thousand years. But there it is.

Like any typical American, I had no idea how extreme and how deep anti-semitism is in Europe until I lived there. And I must say that West Germany, when I was in Europe was the country in which I heard the last anti-semitism.

The Catholic and certain Protestant churches encouraged, fostered and spread falsehoods about Jewish people and Jewish rituals.

This is one of the reasons that I, unlike a lot of DUers strongly support Israel. I know what dangers there are for Jewish people in the world, and I know that Israel is THE safe haven for Jews today.

Without it, an entire people could simply be disappeared. And the world would be the poorer without Jewish culture.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JDPriestly (Reply #13)

Thu Apr 17, 2014, 12:55 AM

16. Some are unaware, some don't give a shit.

Anti-Semitism in this country is problematic, as well. While not at the levels in Europe, the Middle East, and Africa, the former Soviet Empire is one of the worst places, and this includes all of its recent breakaway countries. Jews are expendable or, to some, they are the reason for the problems.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #16)

Thu Apr 17, 2014, 03:34 AM

22. Russia/USSR/name du jour has always been bad for Jews

When Poland was invaded, it was asked by Poles, "is it permissible to kill the Jews?"

My grandfather left Russia during a Tsarist pogrom.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to REP (Reply #22)

Thu Apr 17, 2014, 04:29 AM

26. Yup.

My family was divided into threes; stayed in "Russia" (Belarus in our case), went to Poland, or came to the US. The first two groups are "missing" now.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to REP (Reply #22)

Thu Apr 17, 2014, 05:06 AM

29. Same here

My family - both sides - escaped the pogroms. If this letter is real, it's chilling.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Shrike47 (Reply #3)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 11:17 PM

9. Not really. There are only about 5k Jews in Donetsk.

A mass deportation of 5k Jews could be easily achieved, and most would go on their own accord if it came to it. This is different than Crimea though because the Jews there were mostly respected. Here we have the possibility that Jews would be put on lists and persecuted.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Shrike47 (Reply #3)

Thu Apr 17, 2014, 12:41 AM

12. There will be no Western intervention, not for this.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Shrike47 (Reply #3)

Fri Apr 18, 2014, 06:10 AM

39. That's what I was thinking - a request guaranteed to stir emotions

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to cthulu2016 (Original post)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 11:10 PM

5. Erring on the side of caution means accepting it to be real until demonstrated otherwise. eom

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MohRokTah (Reply #5)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 11:17 PM

8. If one is in Donetsk, sure. For safety's sake. But I don't feel obliged to do so.

If it turns out to be real it would finish off the entire "Nazi Ukraine Neocon" narrative, but despite my dislike of that narrative I am not inclined to credit this... or to not credit it.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to cthulu2016 (Reply #8)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 11:33 PM

10. Anit-semitism exists all over that region.

It's not a stretch that the pro-Russian group that conducted a coup in the East is also anti-semitic, just like many of those who participated in the overthrow of the government in the west.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MohRokTah (Reply #10)

Thu Apr 17, 2014, 12:51 AM

14. Anti-semitism is showing its disgusting face in Hungary too.

Hungary shifted rightward in its national elections on Sunday. Prime Minister Viktor Orban won a second, four-year term and his conservative Fidesz party garnered 45 percent of the vote, giving it a two-thirds majority in the new 199-member parliament. But the big winner was the far-right, anti-Semitic party Jobbik, which increased its share in the vote from 16 to 21 percent and may yet become the second-largest party in the country if the fractious alliance of five left-wing parties fails to cobble a coalition together.

. . . .
The rise in party fortunes has been achieved in part by a face-lift: an effort to downplay Jobbik's anti-Semitism (Vona’s deputy called in 2012 for the government to draw up lists of Jews who pose a "national security risk") and its incitement against the Roma (gypsies), and to launch a slick, Internet-based campaign focusing on nationalist messages – demonizing instead the EU, the International Monetary Fund and globalization in general as obstacles to Hungary’s prosperity. Whoever voted for Jobbik could not have failed to be totally aware of the party’s past positions.

Is this a yet further proof of growing anti-Semitism in new Europe? Polls show that around a third of Hungarians believe that Jews control the global economy, but that is not new. Beyond such a belief, the most distinct racist trait of Jobbik is the deep hatred of the Roma people. The party's main success was in the east, where large communities of gypsies live; indeed, Jobbik brought in as much as 30 percent of the vote in certain districts there.

Violence toward Roma in Hungary, including terror and murder, continues despite government plans to integrate them into society; for their part, local authorities often turn a blind eye to such crimes. At the same time, the country's Jewish community – numbering around 100,000 and concentrated mainly around relatively liberal Budapest where Jobbik did not poll as well – has experienced little violence.

. . . .

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-features/1.584450

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JDPriestly (Reply #14)

Thu Apr 17, 2014, 12:58 AM

17. France, Italy, and Greece are also having some severe problems with anti-Semitism.

Anti-Semitism is certainly a commonality with many of the far-right groups in Europe and Russia, but the real tie is to xenophobic nationalism. The Jews (and Rom) make for convenient scapegoats. Despite their peoples have been there, in some cases, for centuries, they are still seen as "outsiders" and "instigators." The same is true in many nations, across the political spectrums.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #17)

Thu Apr 17, 2014, 12:07 PM

36. And just for fun

Add our own Boy Scouts who are also prone to violence from time to time.

They have no power, but if they ever get it...

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to cthulu2016 (Reply #8)

Thu Apr 17, 2014, 02:25 AM

18. That's precisely why I'm skeptical about it and tend to think it's a false flag ruse.

It appears intended to finish off the entire "Nazi Ukraine Neocon" narrative by making this flyer appear to be the work of the "pro-Russian" side.

Both sides (Ukraine and Russia) have a long history of anti-Semitism, which I've always been acutely aware of since my grandparents were from Ukraine (the western part near the Dnestr River). But from a purely tactical POV ordering Jews to register would be a stupid thing to do at this time, even if they intended to do it eventually. As someone said upthread, it would almost guarantee NATO intervention.

And which side would benefit from NATO intervention?

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to cthulu2016 (Original post)

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 11:51 PM

11. It is pro-Russian separatists who have taken over buildings in Donetsk

Let's make that clear: if this story is true (and I'm not at all convinced of it, since not a single mainstream newspaper has reported it yet), it has nothing to do with the new Ukrainian government. It would be the pro-Russian separatists in Donetsk, in the east, who are the anti-Semitic ones.

Ukrainian Jews supported the change of regime, and continue to support the new Ukrainian government. From earlier this week:

At every Passover table tonight, the youngest child will sing this song. Children at a synagogue in Kiev are learning the words to “Mah Nishtana.” They ask in Hebrew: What makes this night different from all other nights?

Adults in Ukraine can ask a similar question this year: What makes this Passover different from all others? It’s a question Rabbi Alexander Duchovny has been thinking about a lot. He uses a Hebrew phrase to describe it.

“Passover is z’man heiruteinu. Time of our liberty. Time of freedom. And especially for Ukrainian Jewry, and for Ukrainians. This is time of liberty,” he says.

Duchovny is a progressive rabbi, and like many Jews in Kiev, he joined thousands of protesters in Independence Square this winter, demanding a change in government.

In the Passover story, Moses demands that Pharaoh “Let my people go.” And Duchovny sees a thread connecting ancient Egypt to modern-day Ukraine.

“We started our liberation 3,000 years ago, and we still are in the process,” he says.

http://hereandnow.wbur.org/2014/04/14/ukraine-jews-passover

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to cthulu2016 (Original post)

Thu Apr 17, 2014, 12:53 AM

15. 2 different thoughts

On the one hand, this is real. The new pro-Russian "government" of "the pro-Slavic People's Republic of Donetsk" are the anti-Semitic assholes here, not Ukraine. This message signals what is to come for Jews in that region. They will be monitored and considered "enemies of the State," though there will never be an official announcement claiming such. If the new government starts expelling Jews, not a damn thing will be done from the West except 'tut-tuts' of disapproval and saber-rattling. If it extends into a pogrom level situation, still nothing will be done except more threats, and maybe an economic sanction here and there. The only "Western" nation likely to do anything, would be Israel. Given that Netanyahu has reached out to Putin and has said nothing in the way of the Russian invasion of Ukraine, it is possible the Israeli government is preparing a contingency plan to evacuate some or all of the Jews of that area. It will be done in the open, with Russian permission. The West will condemn Israel, as it is doing now for not "siding with" the US and taking a neutral stance.

If this is a "false flag", then it is a disingenuous use of the Jewish people as pawns in this regional conflict and demonstrates a lack of interest/care for the concerns of Jews.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #15)

Thu Apr 17, 2014, 02:48 AM

19. Good analysis

It's difficult to know for sure where it came from, but if someone got to the bottom of it and found it the world would at least know which side is prepared to protect the Jews in the region and which are going to do harm.

If the Jews in the region have to be evacuated, they should. It would be terrible if they had to be uprooted from the place they have lived.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #15)

Thu Apr 17, 2014, 04:10 AM

23. What's new about that?

Re "If this is a "false flag", then it is a disingenuous use of the Jewish people as pawns in this regional conflict and demonstrates a lack of interest/care for the concerns of Jews."

It was my own knee-jerk reaction of fear and anger that clued me in that we are most likely being played. Someone was evidently trying to provoke precisely that reaction. It might even have worked if it wasn't quite so ham-handed and obvious.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Raksha (Reply #23)

Thu Apr 17, 2014, 04:24 AM

24. Didn't say it was new.

Personally, my reaction is this is likely the work of shit-heels, not anyone official, but I just don't know. Given this region, it is very possible this real and something really bad is about to happen. But, I think the predictions that NATO would get involved is laughable. Another pogrom could take place and people would just wring their hands and cry their crocodile tears.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #24)

Thu Apr 17, 2014, 04:54 AM

27. I just posted a Robert Parry article you might want to read.

It's called "Ukraine, Through a US Looking Glass."

Among other things, it gets into some background information on Stepan Bandera, the "national hero" of Ukraine mentioned in the lead article. He was a Nazi collaborator who was responsible for the deaths of thousands of Jews and Poles during WWII.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024833080

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Raksha (Reply #27)

Thu Apr 17, 2014, 04:56 AM

28. I read that drek.

I am aware of Ukrainian history in regards to anti-Semitism. I can give you some links on Russian anti-Semitism if you are interested.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #28)

Thu Apr 17, 2014, 11:05 AM

30. I'm well aware of Russia's history of anti-Semitism, and don't need convincing in that regard.

The question is which side is responsible for this alleged "deportation order"?

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to cthulu2016 (Original post)

Thu Apr 17, 2014, 02:53 AM

20. This seems too ridiculous to be real.

I don't believe it.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to LisaL (Reply #20)

Thu Apr 17, 2014, 04:26 AM

25. Does it now?

It's not like this hasn't happened in that region before...oh wait, it has.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #25)

Thu Apr 17, 2014, 11:58 AM

33. Happens before

"Every generation" I think my Haggadah told me Tuesday night.

I'm old, so I get to see this twice, I guess.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to LisaL (Reply #20)

Thu Apr 17, 2014, 12:10 PM

37. Given the history of the region

I sure hope the local Jews take an attitude 180 from yours. Though Americans did not want to believe it last time around either.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to cthulu2016 (Original post)

Thu Apr 17, 2014, 03:06 AM

21. Pro-Russians Deny Telling Ukraine Jews to Register in Restive Donetsk

http://forward.com/articles/196658/pro-russians-deny-telling-ukraine-jews-to-register/?

Pro-Russian separatists from Donetsk in eastern Ukraine denied any involvement in the circulation of flyers calling on Jews to register with separatists and pay special taxes.

The flyers were distributed earlier this week in the city, where pro-Russian separatists led by Denis Pushilin this month took over several government buildings and declared their secession from Ukraine as the Donetsk Republic amid a standoff with authorities.

The flyers were official-looking documents that carried what was presented as Pushilin’s signature, but the news site tvrain.ru on Wednesday quoted Pushilin as denying any connection to the flyers, calling them a provocation.

On Tuesday, the news website novosti.dn.ua reported that the flyers were handed out that day by three unidentified men in balaclava masks carrying a flag of the Russian Federation. According to the report, the men distributed the flyers next to a local synagogue. The website quoted unnamed sources from the local Jewish community as saying that the flyers were an attempt to provoke a conflict and blame the attack on the separatists.

*another media source fyi*

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to cthulu2016 (Original post)

Thu Apr 17, 2014, 11:53 AM

31. Nice try...


A simple search of say, The Jerusalem Post, would yield you this:

"Separatists in Donetsk deny involvement in circulation of documents calling for Jews 16 and up to register at occupied government building."

The quote is the subtitle of the article.

http://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/Jewish-News/Flyers-call-for-Jews-to-register-with-pro-Russians-in-Ukrainian-city-348695

Concerning your "article", you write, "The linked article says toward the end that Denis Pushilin confirmed that his group was responsible for the letter but would not comment on the contents."

Actually, it doesn't. It says, "Pushilin, the interim government's regional chairman, confirmed that the flyers were distributed by his organization, but denied any connection to the leaflet's content."

That has the opposite meaning.

It turns out that Pushilin was confirming that the leaflet was on their letterhead.

I'm sure you made a simple mistake.

Turning everyone into "Nazis" serves only to muddy the waters when real Nazis are about.



Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JoseGaspar (Reply #31)

Thu Apr 17, 2014, 11:56 AM

32. You need to apologize...

The OP had posted this in response to someone else linking the very same article yesterday..at best, the story is muddied.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to joeybee12 (Reply #32)

Thu Apr 17, 2014, 11:59 AM

34. That is an odd request.


Denied.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JoseGaspar (Reply #34)

Thu Apr 17, 2014, 12:04 PM

35. Suit yourself..you misread the intent of the OP...nt

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JoseGaspar (Reply #31)

Thu Apr 17, 2014, 12:12 PM

38. It's on our letterhead

But not our content...when exactly in the past that has happened before? It's not like the region is not replete with examples.

I will leave it at that.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink