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Sun Apr 13, 2014, 03:24 PM

Ok things in the Ukraine are getting even more serious

Ukraine's president says a full-scale operation involving the army will be launched in the east after pro-Russian militants seized government buildings.

Acting President Oleksandr Turchynov said he would not allow a repetition of what happened in Crimea which was annexed by Russia last month.

His live televised address from parliament came after pro-Russian forces targeted half a dozen cities.

Moscow has strongly criticised Kiev's plan to use its armed forces.


http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27011605

And for those saying, but CIA, USA, at this point it is a bunch of DERP, since the agressor is increasingly clear. and that is the OTHER empire.

53 replies, 1953 views

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Arrow 53 replies Author Time Post
Reply Ok things in the Ukraine are getting even more serious (Original post)
nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 OP
Duckhunter935 Apr 2014 #1
joshcryer Apr 2014 #2
nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #3
joshcryer Apr 2014 #4
nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #5
joshcryer Apr 2014 #6
arendt Apr 2014 #20
nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #26
arendt Apr 2014 #40
nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #41
arendt Apr 2014 #47
nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #49
arendt Apr 2014 #51
pokerfan Apr 2014 #44
nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #45
TwilightGardener Apr 2014 #7
amandabeech Apr 2014 #8
nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #9
amandabeech Apr 2014 #13
cthulu2016 Apr 2014 #10
kelliekat44 Apr 2014 #11
malaise Apr 2014 #12
nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #14
arendt Apr 2014 #18
nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #21
Benton D Struckcheon Apr 2014 #28
nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #29
Benton D Struckcheon Apr 2014 #31
nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #32
arendt Apr 2014 #38
nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #39
arendt Apr 2014 #50
malaise Apr 2014 #53
nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #23
rumdude Apr 2014 #24
arendt Apr 2014 #48
rumdude Apr 2014 #52
rumdude Apr 2014 #15
Blue_Tires Apr 2014 #16
nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #33
Blue_Tires Apr 2014 #42
nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #46
NuclearDem Apr 2014 #17
arendt Apr 2014 #19
nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #22
NuclearDem Apr 2014 #34
nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #35
11 Bravo Apr 2014 #25
nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #27
Benton D Struckcheon Apr 2014 #30
NuclearDem Apr 2014 #36
zappaman Apr 2014 #37
SidDithers Apr 2014 #43

Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun Apr 13, 2014, 03:31 PM

1. as much as I hate violence

I think they must put a stop to this now or it will be worse and Russia will take the opportunity. It will just continue to simmer and spread.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun Apr 13, 2014, 03:33 PM

2. If Putin invades it will be a grave mistake.

Actual sanctions that matter (already Canada has done it), probable insurgency in eastern Ukraine. Crimea was a special case.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #2)

Sun Apr 13, 2014, 03:35 PM

3. They are using the same template as Crimea

so they probably already invaded.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #3)

Sun Apr 13, 2014, 03:41 PM

4. The only have a few buildings.

In Crimea they took towns, military bases. On my phone but check out VICE News' latest dispatch from Ukraine, about 15 minutes long.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #4)

Sun Apr 13, 2014, 03:42 PM

5. I know, but technically if any of these people is captured alive

and admits to being Spetnatz, that is already an act of war.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #5)

Sun Apr 13, 2014, 03:45 PM

6. Yep, today is going to be interesting.

Saw a funny report last night that had the same person representing both sides, said he was pro Russia in one video then anti in the next.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #3)

Sun Apr 13, 2014, 07:37 PM

20. The US is using the same template they have used for the last fifty years. n/t

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Response to arendt (Reply #20)

Sun Apr 13, 2014, 08:27 PM

26. Ironic, so have the Russians

look, you see the US as the heart of evil. I don't. I don't see the Russians as the heart of evil either, but not as pure newborn kittens either, which you seem to do. (And I have it from a good primary source what Russification can mean to minorities by the way, and that policy goes back to at least 1500. So what do you prefer? Fifty years or more like centuries?)

I happen to look at BOTH as cold calculating sons of bitches who are advancing their national interests. I know, shocking.

Suffice it to say on this one the RUSSIANS are the ones sending in Special Forces to do this, not the US. So for once, we are not truly the monsters that the cartoon of the liberal left think the US is. And by the way, you are not doing any favors to any progressive policies that might emanate from the Department of State.

I know, the US is evil, and has never done any good, and all that. Trust me, I heard that in Mexico as well. I also heard many screaming Yankee go home. There is a history for that by the way. Has it occurred to you that a healthy number of Ukrainians have precisely that feeling when it comes to Russians? There is just at least 1500 years of common history.

Now I guess you are going to tell me to go read your approved choices of history material.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #26)

Sun Apr 13, 2014, 09:25 PM

40. I stipulated in another response that Putin is a bad guy.

I object to US policy, because it is MY country, it is MY tax dollars being spent to prop up right-wing, neoliberal governments all over the world.

I can't affect Putin, but I can try to affect the politics of MY OWN country.

As for this Special Forces stuff, the US has bases in a hundred countries. We constantly intervene everywhere. We blow people up with drones. The Israeli Mossad is famous/infamous for its operations behind enemy lines.

What the Russians are doing is exactly the same shit we do every day, every where. In your own words, it is shocking, I know. I love how the feeling the Ukrainians have for the Russians are legitimate; and the feeling the ethnic Russians have for neo-Nazis who worship Bandera and wear SS logos are completely ignored.

I am just tired of having yet another narrative of lies written by intelligence agencies become the corporate conventional wisdom.

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Response to arendt (Reply #40)

Sun Apr 13, 2014, 09:43 PM

41. Good to now you do not thing they are pure as fallen snow

Because I would never know from your posts.

object to US policy, because it is MY country, it is MY tax dollars being spent to prop up right-wing, neoliberal governments all over the world.


You really need to develop a tad of sophistication and understand that we are not the only ones propping right wing (or for others left wing) governments. In a few cases those governments were elected by their own people, I know shocking. Yes, we were behind Chile, Argentina, Nicaragua, Iran, Iraq, and a few others, but damn it. we are not the only ones propping clent states and foreign affairs are always a mixture of shades of gray and national interests, including those of local elites. You surely understand that if locals did not want it, populist uprisings have worked. Or maybe I have a far more nuanced view of this, and far more REAL POLITIK too.

I can't affect Putin, but I can try to affect the politics of MY OWN country.


Keep voting, but our own country elite is committed to Empire.

As for this Special Forces stuff, the US has bases in a hundred countries. We constantly intervene everywhere. We blow people up with drones. The Israeli Mossad is famous/infamous for its operations behind enemy lines.


Yup the evil Israelis had to come into play here. I guess those SPETNATZ are truly Golani Brigade, or worst, Tsayeret Maatkal or something like that. Again over? As to us having bases all over the place, ever care to look at the map of USSR bases during the height of the cold war? Or for that matter currently what the Chinese are up to? (Again there is nuance that I am afraid you seem to lack here)

What the Russians are doing is exactly the same shit we do every day, every where. In your own words, it is shocking, I know. I love how the feeling the Ukrainians have for the Russians are legitimate; and the feeling the ethnic Russians have for neo-Nazis who worship Bandera and wear SS logos are completely ignored.


I guess I missed that in the Guardian (who has covered that), or for that matter a few other press outlets. And yes, those Ethnic Russians fought side by side with those evil Ukrainians during the Great Patriotic War and defeated the Great Fascist. None is ignoring that aspect, but damn it, you do know this is a Parliamentary system? You also know that during the COLD WAR the Russians treated the Ukraine as a production zone (going back to the Tsar) and essentially kept an intelligence operation in place for all that long time. You are ignoring that history, becuase garble darble we are evil or 'thing.

I am just tired of having yet another narrative of lies written by intelligence agencies become the corporate conventional wisdom.


So this is not happening... and it is the product evil corporate media...

Look, one lesson I learned a long time ago was to take what everybody says in the middle of a crisis with a grain of salt... that includes RT by the way, and CBS. But Jesus, there are people in the Ukraine who do want to go back to Russia, they tend to be older, and remember the good old days when none lost jobs. Some of the cities used to produce weapons for the Red Army by the way, and were closed to outsiders. IT is the INDUSTRIAL EAST. Yes, they want to go back to Russia, and they remember that.

They are, by the way, as close as you can get any European to the American Tea Party (and I am forcing a square peg into a round hole by the way)



There, inserting nuance, why should I do that? Oh yes, because we know there is nuance.

You really want to influence your government, and I am being serious as a heart attack RUN FOR OFFICE. On the web, you won't

And Sir, we are done. I am not going to waste more time on this.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #41)

Sun Apr 13, 2014, 10:54 PM

47. Thanks for the contradictory, condescending kisoff

what a Gish Gallop

Yeah, we are through - because you can't take the heat.

You just spout whatever and declare victory.

I really am over taking you as some kind of level-headed thinker.


Goodbye, as soon as I see what other insults you have posted to me.

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Response to arendt (Reply #47)

Sun Apr 13, 2014, 10:56 PM

49. I think it is time we say our goodbyes

the US is evil, and all that. Goodbye.

Gish Gallop is called facts... I guess facts are not what you like.

Welcome to Ignore. I said I was not going to waste more time.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #49)

Sun Apr 13, 2014, 11:05 PM

51. Assertions are not arguments. You never admit anything. Goodbye.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #3)

Sun Apr 13, 2014, 10:29 PM

44. Geographically. it's going to be a lot more difficult

to carve off a chunk of eastern Ukraine than it was to claim Crimea.

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Response to pokerfan (Reply #44)

Sun Apr 13, 2014, 10:40 PM

45. And I think they have stepped one step too far

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun Apr 13, 2014, 03:53 PM

7. Russia failed to get a big separatist movement going in places where "protesters"

took over, and Ukraine didn't overreact and in fact gave them some leeway, so now they're repeating the Crimea move with "masked gunmen" who are actually Russian troops or special forces. Now Ukraine has been invaded in its mainland, and needs to start fighting.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun Apr 13, 2014, 06:01 PM

8. Russia has called a meeting of the Security Council for this evening.

The Europeans are meeting tomorrow.

There no tanks in the streets as yet, but who knows what will happen tomorrow.

I hate to check the BBC website in the am for fear that Russian tanks are rolling into Ukraine. It's just one giant flashback to the Cold War, except that the Repugs are rooting for the other side.

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Response to amandabeech (Reply #8)

Sun Apr 13, 2014, 06:11 PM

9. We are at the beginning of another cold war indeed

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #9)

Sun Apr 13, 2014, 06:35 PM

13. I certainly hope that it can be averted this time.

I'm old enough to remember a lot of the last one, and it was awful for everyone involved, except the arms merchants.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun Apr 13, 2014, 06:21 PM

10. Nothing a few RT articles won't fix.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun Apr 13, 2014, 06:23 PM

11. Once they all figure out that we have too much to do for ourselves, they will find a way to tend to

their own problems. We need to get our own house in order and stop throwing away our resources to people who don't even like us.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun Apr 13, 2014, 06:28 PM

12. Who targetted Kiev?

Which empires?

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Response to malaise (Reply #12)

Sun Apr 13, 2014, 06:51 PM

14. Russia, in case you continue to miss it

the US is a reluctant Empire (the people, not those in charge) This would be the fourth time the Russians embrace Empire. I am sorry this is not following the typical US is evil story line and there is quite a bit of nuance and history to this one. Let's just say the last three times the Russians embraced Empire it was just north of the 1500s.

And it is not the US who has people on the ground, heavily armed, no patches, wearing similar fatigues and carrying specialized weapons that SPETNATZ carries. Once you spot a SEAL Team member, or a Ranger, do let us know.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #14)

Sun Apr 13, 2014, 07:31 PM

18. I respect your work on this board, but this thread is so simple-minded, I must object.

Start by reading:

America's coup machine

In Ukraine, the U.S. has worked since independence in 1991 to promote pro-Western parties and candidates, climaxing in the "Orange Revolution" in 2004. But the Western-backed governments of Viktor Yushchenko and Yulia Tymoshenko became just as corrupt and unpopular as previous ones, and former Prime Minister Viktor Yanukovich was elected President in 2010.

The U.S. employed all its traditional tactics leading up to the coup in 2014. The U.S. National Endowment for Democracy (NED) has partially taken over the CIA's role in grooming opposition candidates, parties and political movements, with an annual budget of $100 million to spend in countries around the world. The NED made no secret of targeting Ukraine as a top priority, funding 65 projects there , more than in any other country. The NED's neoconservative president, Carl Gershman, called Ukraine "the biggest prize" in a Washington Post op-ed in September 2013, as the U.S. operation there prepared to move into its next phase.


I have been politically aware since 1965, and the whole mess in the Ukraine stinks of covert ops, long-term destabilization, and creepy, paramilitary assets (read the Right Sector).

The main thing that distinguishes the U.S. coup in Ukraine from the majority of previous U.S. coups was the minimal role played by the Ukrainian military. Since 1953, most U.S. coups have involved using local senior military officers to deliver the final blow to remove the elected or ruling leader. The officers have then been rewarded with presidencies, dictatorships or other senior positions in new U.S.-backed regimes. The U.S. military cultivates military-to-military relationships to identify and groom future coup leaders, and President Obama's expansion of U.S. special forces operations to 134 countries around the world suggests that this process is ongoing and expanding, not contracting.

But the neutral or pro-Russian position of the Ukrainian military since it was separated from the Soviet Red Army in 1991 made it an impractical tool for an anti-Russian coup. So Nuland and Pyatt's signal innovation in Ukraine was to use the neo-Nazi Svoboda Party and Right Sector as a strike force to unleash escalating violence and seize power. This also required managing Svoboda and Right Sector's uneasy alliance with Fatherland and UDAR, the two pro-Western opposition parties who won 40% between them in the 2012 parliamentary election .


I was literally not born yesterday. I have watched CIA and other neocon operatives squander my money, subvert democracy across the world, and generally tarnish America's reputation.

From any viewpoint longer than the last six months, this looks like YET ANOTHER WESTERN, CORPORATE FRIENDLY COUP. Look at how absolutely screwed the Ukrainian people will be by the great "deal" they are getting from the EU. They are just next in line to be looted, ala Greece. National resources are to be privatized and sold to EU corporations for chump change.

But, it is ethnic Russians in Eastern Ukraine who will not only be screwed, but also disenfranchised in their own country, who are a tool of Putin?

I am sorry, your viewpoint on this is closed-minded and simple-minded.

I expect better from you, or I would not be writing this.

I don't follow every comment. For all I know, given your surname, you may think you have some personal stake in letting Western corporations screw over yet another poor country. I suggest you read some history and take a reread of "Shock Doctrine".

That is all.

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Response to arendt (Reply #18)

Sun Apr 13, 2014, 07:54 PM

21. And I will give you this to mull over

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024799849

Part of my Masters in History included quite a bit of reading into the history of yes, RUSSIA and UKRAINE

It has gotten comical to be honest at this point.

But hey, you can have your views on this, I know mine are actually grounded well within the history of the region and NUANCE. Tell me, why are Spetnatz troops on the ground? Those are not SEALS, or German Special Forces or anything else.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #21)

Sun Apr 13, 2014, 08:36 PM

28. Just read that thread,

missed it when it first popped up.
That last bit about how seeing it as the evil American empire would be correct if we were looking at the Caribbean is correct. Ukraine, I keep trying to tell people, by turning to the EU, is doing exactly what Cuba did by turning to the USSR: finding a strong ally outside its region in order to keep its independence. In Ukraine, Russia is to them as the US is to Cuba, and the EU is to Ukraine what Russia is/was to Cuba.
Objective analysis doesn't get you anywhere with some people though. That alternet article was just agitprop glurge, poorly argued and a really clumsy attempt at somehow finding a way to pin what is now happening in Ukraine on the US.

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Response to Benton D Struckcheon (Reply #28)

Sun Apr 13, 2014, 08:39 PM

29. The Cuba comparison is very good

and I thought about it myself, but I figured that it would go over a lot of people's heads to be honest.

And what was the reaction from the US when the Russians placed missiles in Cuba?

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #29)

Sun Apr 13, 2014, 08:41 PM

31. Not a good one,

but I remember that when all was said and done, Khruschev figured he got what he wanted: the US would never dare invade Cuba after that.
He was right, too.

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Response to Benton D Struckcheon (Reply #31)

Sun Apr 13, 2014, 08:46 PM

32. True and we all know that

well history never quite repeats itself.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #21)

Sun Apr 13, 2014, 09:20 PM

38. My objection is to your black-and-white characterization of the situation

I thought Saddam was bad; I didn't think we had the justification to invade and destroy Iraq. I also think Putin is bad, but I don't think we had the justification to stage-manage a right-wing coup d'etat over the head of the legitimate protest leader, Klicho.

Here are a few links as to how non-simple this situation is:

A plausible reading of the on the ground reality in Eastern Ukraine is that both sides are competing for the hearts and minds of the general populace. The active pro-Russian support is likely a fairly small number of people. Most of the people are likely waiting to see how things develop. More armed intervention coming from Kiev could tip the scales and give rise to real civil war.

Ukraine: Its complicated


Ever since Bill Clinton sat in the Oval Office, Washington and its European allies have worked openly and covertly to extend NATO to the Russian border and Black Sea Fleet, provoking a badly wounded Russian bear. They have also worked to bring Ukraine and its Eastern European neighbors into the neoliberal economy of the West, isolating the Russians rather than trying to bring them into the fold. Except for sporadic resets, anti-Russian has become the new anti-Soviet, and "strategic containment" has been the wonky word for encircling Russia with our military and economic power.

Nor did neoconservatives create the policy, no matter how many progressive pundits blame them for it. NED provides cushy jobs for old social democrats born again as neocons. Pyatt's boss, Victoria Nuland, is the wife and fellow-traveler of historian Robert Kagan, one of the movement's leading lights. And neocons are currently beating the war drums against Russia, as much to scupper any agreements on Syria and Iran as to encourage more Pentagon contracts for their friends and financial backers. But, encircling Russia has never been just a neocon thing. The policy has bi-partisan and trans-Atlantic support, including the backing of America's old-school nationalists, Cold War liberals, Hillary hawks, and much of Obama's national security team.

No matter that the policy doesn’t pass the giggle test. Extending NATO and Western economic institutions into all of a very divided Ukraine had less chance of working than did hopes in 2008 of bringing Georgia into NATO, which could have given the gung-ho Georgian president Mikheil Saakashvilli the treaty right to drag us all into World War III. To me, that seemed like giving a ten-year-old the keys to the family Humvee.

Western provocations in Ukraine proved more immediately counterproductive. They gave Vladimir Putin the perfect opportunity for a pro-Russian putsch in Crimea, which he had certainly thought of before, but never as a priority. The provocations encouraged him to stand up as a true Russian nationalist, which will only make him more difficult to deal with. And they gave him cover to get away with that age-old tool of tyrants, a quickie plebiscite with an unnecessary return to Joseph Stalin's old dictum once popular in my homestate of Florida: "It's not the votes that count, but who counts the votes."

Small "d" democrats should shun such pretense. Still, most journalists and pollsters on the scene report that – with the exception of the historic Tatar community – the majority of Crimeans want to join the Russian Federation, where they seem likely to stay.

Tensions will also grow as the US-picked interim prime minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk – our man "Yats" – joins with the IMF to impose a Greek, Spanish, or Italian style austerity. Hard-pressed Ukranians will undoubtedly fight back, especially in the predominantly Russian-speaking east. According to Der Spiegel, a whopping three quarters of the people there do not support the coup or government. What a tar patch! A domestic conflict that could split Ukraine in two will inevitably become even further embroiled in the geo-strategic struggle between Russia and the West.

]Meet the Americans who put together the coup in Kiev


And then there is the naked economic looting:

The rush to austerity is not a product primarily of Yatseiuk’s ideology, but of the EU’s worship of austerity. The IMF serves as the EU’s “leg breaker” for the Ukraine. The EU is making clear that it will only provide aid if the IMF is in place to extort the Ukraine to inflict austerity on an economy that is already in recession.

This is crazy on multiple dimensions. First, the Ukraine defines the concept of “political instability.” Playing into Putin’s hands by inflicting austerity on the Ukraine and producing “hell” is ludicrous.

Second, the Ukraine is in a severe recession. Austerity makes recessions worse. The Ukraine should be spending material amounts of money (from its perspective; tiny amounts from our perspective – or compared to the cost of a military conflict) dealing with Ukraine’s acute problems.

Third, the Ukraine has an inflation problem not because of excessive demand (demand is grossly inadequate) but because Russia has dramatically increased the cost of energy. Austerity is not the answer to this variant of cost-push inflation.

Fourth, the Ukraine has a tiny economy and small debts (relative to the West). The EU and the U.S. can easily pay off Ukraine’s debts (or if they prefer any debt owed to non-Russian entities) and replace it with very low interest rate debt in the Ukraine’s own currency with interest payments deferred for a decade. Ukraine has made the double mistake of trying to peg its currency to the dollar and to borrow in foreign currencies. The U.S. and EU could solve these problems, going forward, by giving the Ukraine a fresh start. This would speed the Ukraine’s economic recovery and remove one of the potential sources of an economic shock that could harm the EU and U.S. economic recoveries.

Fifth, the Obama administration purports to oppose the eurozone’s austerity policies. The case against inflicting austerity on the Ukraine is even stronger. Obama is under enormous criticism from Republicans for failing to take more decisive actions to support the Ukraine. The Ukraine offers the administration the perfect opportunity to do the right thing economically and politically, to demonstrate his leadership, and to force the Republicans to admit that austerity is a destructive policy that the U.S. needs to prevent by forceful action.

Sixth, instead, austerity dogma trumps – simultaneously – good economics, good domestic politics in the U.S. and the Ukraine, and U.S. national security. That’s how insanely powerful the failed dogma of austerity has become. The CEOs who run the banks that loan money to the Ukraine are more powerful than the Pentagon and our State Department.

Bill Black: The Kamikaze Economics of Forcing Austerity on the Ukraine


I do not pretend to be an expert in the details of the incestuous and tumultuous relationship between Russia and Ukraine. But, the total hypocrisy of the US being outraged at anyone's military, covert ops, and diplomatic manueverings is laughable. President Carter just said the rest of the world thinks we are the "number one warmonger".

It is the total dismissive certainty of your postings in this thread that goads me to keep objecting that the situation is NOT SIMPLE. You reference another one of your own posts, which contains such "already made up your mind" statements as:

And that is how to stop what increasingly looks like an aggressive stance from a regional power?


Excuse me, but Russia has been facing an agressive stance from NATO for the last 20 years. And, what wonders have been accomplished? The Baltic States have been sacrificed on the altar of neoliberalism. Their economies are wreckage. Georgia, under yet another neoliberal apparatchik, started a war that he lost in five days. Now, there is this illegitimate, rump government in Kiev that is kicking the ethnic Russians in Ukraine in the nuts. So Russia says "why are we paying a $2B a year subsidy to Ukraine for below-market natural gas when they are kicking us in the nuts?" That comes out in the corporate media as "Russia raises prices - another aggressive move."

I'm sorry, you haven't shown me anything I haven't already heard; and you haven't responded to my narrative, except to dismiss it without rebutting it.

I am not impressed.

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Response to arendt (Reply #38)

Sun Apr 13, 2014, 09:24 PM

39. LMAO, now that is hilarious

if anything calling the kettle black.

No, I am not using a black and white approach Just understand the history of the region, I guess a tad better and I do not see Nazis (that be the Russians), or the World Bank (that be you guys) behind every rock, nook and cranny.

And because they have been facing an aggressive NATO they have permission to change European borders to fit their interests? M'kay. Worst case scenario i expect you to justify the war too.

Have an excellent day. And yes, goes without saying...



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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #39)

Sun Apr 13, 2014, 11:03 PM

50. Wow. This isn't a discussion, its a non-stop diatribe.

Throw in whichever of the corporate-crystallized memes are germane to the post, spit on the person you are replying to, and move on.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

I had one exchange with you before you started this shit. You decided I didn't agree with you, and that was it. Just turn on the sneering.

At this point, I have no respect for your intellectual honesty. And, big deal, you have a masters degree. I have degrees too, but I don't go waving them around to defend bullshit positions.

Your support for neoliberals in Ukraine is a direct threat to me at home - because those neoliberal policies drive down wages around the world, including in the US. Those policies empower bankers, and god knows we already have too much of that.

You try to say you "understand" all this stuff, but, bottom line, you support the neoliberals, you support the banksters. There are a lot of Democrats and Americans who flat out disagree with supporting them. You, despite your claims of "understanding" and "realism", support neoliberal and neoconservative adventurism.


I hope we are done here, cause I have better things to do.

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Response to arendt (Reply #38)

Mon Apr 14, 2014, 05:32 AM

53. +1,000 n/t

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Response to arendt (Reply #18)

Sun Apr 13, 2014, 08:01 PM

23. Oh and thank you very much for the personal attack

and are you implying I am related to Sbignew Brzezinski? I guess it is time to reveal the truth of that POLISH surname... it is as common as Smith in the United States.

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Response to arendt (Reply #18)

Sun Apr 13, 2014, 08:05 PM

24. Yeah, it's ALL america's fault

America is hand over fist better than Russia on transparency, human rights, the rule of law, or on anything else you might claim to care about...

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Response to rumdude (Reply #24)

Sun Apr 13, 2014, 10:55 PM

48. No facts, just claims of American exceptionalism. n/t

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Response to arendt (Reply #48)

Sun Apr 13, 2014, 11:23 PM

52. The facts are legion - I just don't think you understand much

I don't think you know anything about Russian atrocities in Chechnya, the massive levels of theft and corruption in the Russian government, the assassination of Russian journalists, the imprisonment and death of Sergei Magnitsky, the list could on and on...but I don't think you would be aware of any of it.

Oh and by the way, the corruption in our system is nothing like it is over there. It's on another scale over there. But then I don't expect you to understand any of it.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun Apr 13, 2014, 06:54 PM

15. What does RT have to say about it?

LOL

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun Apr 13, 2014, 07:04 PM

16. Greenwald and Poitras were unavailable for comment, as usual...

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Response to Blue_Tires (Reply #16)

Sun Apr 13, 2014, 08:58 PM

33. Since they are not doing anything with that

that was a gratuitous attack. If this was on NSA and fourth amendment, then they would have something to say about it.

By the way, I am no longer surprised but horrified at the acceptance of the security state as long as a dem does it.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #33)

Sun Apr 13, 2014, 09:52 PM

42. Funny you bring that up

Because I am no longer surprised at the willingness of people to turn a blind eye to wrongdoing and oppression just because it doesn't have "NSA" splattered all over the headline...

Funny enough; after all the talk, all the bullshit, and all the public posturing from every direction regarding this scandal, it was a Dem who addressed it as a problem and at least set forth a tangible plan to do something about it (yeah, he needed a lot of public pressure to be spurred into action, but still...)

Congress could have acted independently on the issue at any time during the scandal (and they still can)...But at the end of the day Udall, Paul and the rest did pretty much nothing...

IIRC, now that I think about it, the United States is the only country to even address the overreach of its intelligence services and plan some kind of reform...I don't recall seeing any news about other Five Eyes allies vowing to overhaul the who-where-how-why of their data collection services in recent months...What about other allies? Italy? Spain? Germany? Israel? Sweden? Nope, nothing...Ironically, (yeah, I know I'm not allowed to bring this up) countries like Russia and Brazil have actually *increased* data collection of civilians since the NSA story broke...Now why on Earth would they do that? And why is that not a legit topic for discussion?

And yes, I heartily admit my comment was a flagrant, gratuitous attack; because they *deserved* it...I don't even care -- If you're a supposed journalist heading a news outlet with a quarter of a BILLION dollars in start-up money, I'd have thought they'd want to actually cover one of the biggest ongoing stories on the planet...I'm not saying Greenwald has to personally be on the ground reporting from Kiev (although that's the way it was done in the old school) but they easily have the resources to send a couple of reporters and a photog/video...But no -- Greenwald on twitter has repeatedly said that essentially Ukraine is too far away and too insignificant to care about; like he's being asked to cover the dog catcher election in Peoria...

Of course, I know how the game works by now -- The minute Greenwald finds an NSA angle to inject into the Ukraine story without angering his 'superiors', we'll see nonstop coverage on the Intercept...I'd bet the house on it...

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Response to Blue_Tires (Reply #42)

Sun Apr 13, 2014, 10:42 PM

46. If they did not expose it

you would not be seeing a damn thing from the feds.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun Apr 13, 2014, 07:20 PM

17. Your argument is invalid because Svoboda and Nuland.

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Response to NuclearDem (Reply #17)

Sun Apr 13, 2014, 07:36 PM

19. Your argument is invalid because the sun will rise tomorrow.

My logic is at least as valid as yours.

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Response to NuclearDem (Reply #17)

Sun Apr 13, 2014, 07:59 PM

22. All I said is that it is getting very serious

I just happen to have a Masters in History with a minor area of study in European history which included a lot of reading into the history of precisely that region... but IMF, and World Bank and Yankees behind every wall. Granted, there is some to that, but none of these said, "Kiev, mother of all Russian Cities," or words to that effect.

It matters little that we have Russian Special Forces on the ground right now. It is truly garble, ergh derp...

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #22)

Sun Apr 13, 2014, 08:58 PM

34. Sorry, should've had the sarcasm tag in there.

Just making light of the usual deflection tactics.

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Response to NuclearDem (Reply #34)

Sun Apr 13, 2014, 09:00 PM

35. That is ok, at this point

I am doing a lot of this



It is either that, or cry a lot.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun Apr 13, 2014, 08:08 PM

25. We saw how Russia would respond to this type of event at Beslan.

Will anyone point out the screaming hypocrisy when the Russians inevitably complain if and when the Ukrainians move against the occupiers?

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Response to 11 Bravo (Reply #25)

Sun Apr 13, 2014, 08:31 PM

27. To be fair, as far as that treatment is concerned

neither Russia (Beslan) or the US (Occupy) can claim the high ground, morally that is.

But I do not expect anybody to point that out.

Nations and regimes do defend themselves by using police forces no matter how many times they claim to offer freedom of speech and all that. Go ahead and call me cynical.

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Response to 11 Bravo (Reply #25)

Sun Apr 13, 2014, 08:40 PM

30. I saw somewhere that the Russians said

"they (the Ukraine gov't) should not make war on their own people".
I shit you not.
Points for cleverness, anyway.

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Response to Benton D Struckcheon (Reply #30)

Sun Apr 13, 2014, 09:01 PM

36. Seriously?

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun Apr 13, 2014, 09:04 PM

37. I fear a sneeze could make this go hot.

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Response to zappaman (Reply #37)

Sun Apr 13, 2014, 10:05 PM

43. It has a Guns of August feel to it...nt

Sid

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