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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsMan... I Did Not Realize Until Today... How Many George Zimmerman Defenders Are Here At DU
Hugabear
(10,340 posts)It's almost as if they just signed up to defend that racist POS
abelenkpe
(9,933 posts)FarPoint
(12,207 posts)They are full of pure hate.
NOLALady
(4,003 posts)Very afraid that maybe this incident could push some away from the Republican agenda. They are afraid that decent people may open their eyes and see how they have been manipulated with fear mongering. They are afraid that the majority of decent Americans will come together and say in one voice, ENOUGH!
Quantess
(27,630 posts)who love to waste their time trolling on internet boards. Maybe a little of both?
Cirque du So-What
(25,811 posts)and that - to me, anyway - is just as infuriating as the trolls who sign up for what is tantamount to a 'suicide mission.'
WillyT
(72,631 posts)bobthedrummer
(26,083 posts)Bolo Boffin
(23,796 posts)From everything I had heard, even with things meant to put Zimmerman's side forward, I knew how it all sounded and where I was - squarely on Trayvon's side. But the instant I found out Zimmerman was recorded by the police saying "fucking coons," it was over as far as I was concerned. Any incident that starts with a racial slur and ends with a dead black man? Come the hell on, somebody got to get real up in here.
Lilyeye
(1,417 posts)I just saw a post by one poster who has been around for a bit and totally defended Zimmerman killing Trayvon.
Here's the post. It was hidden so I can't post the exact link. Its post 37.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101482918#post37
I am posting this since a few days ago people were jumping on my case for not showing "proof" of Zimmerman defenders.
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)fly-by-night trolls have been showing up.
Lilyeye
(1,417 posts)Ohio Joe
(21,653 posts)Very disturbing for something so clear cut.
FarPoint
(12,207 posts)We need to alert...a lot...screw letting them fly under the radar...Trayvon deserves better.
It seems most of George Zimmerman's defenders are bigots, and gun nuts. What a shock.
WillyT
(72,631 posts)Hoyt
(54,770 posts)blm
(112,919 posts)I was told.
liberalhistorian
(20,809 posts)that the KID ('cause that's what he was) may have felt very threatened himself, walking alone, at night, being stalked and followed by a larger, older stranger. Why isn't he allowed to feel threatened as well? Because he didn't have a gun? Are only people with guns allowed to feel threatened? 'Cause that's the vibe I get from these guns uber alles yahoos.
I've noticed that
moriah
(8,311 posts).... defending him. I've seen plenty defending the laws -- I personally support Castle Doctrine and the idea behind SYG but apparently the implementation of it sucks majorly if Zimmerman can hide behind it.
But Zimmerman was the aggressor, he has no right to claim self-defense.
Response to WillyT (Original post)
Skittles This message was self-deleted by its author.
Skittles
(152,963 posts)there's plenty of DUers who think that Stand Your Ground garbage is A-OK
WillyT
(72,631 posts)Life Long Dem
(8,582 posts)billyoc
(13,126 posts)fascisthunter
(29,381 posts)notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)of course
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)southernyankeebelle
(11,304 posts)rein some of the gun laws. They just go nuts.
spin
(17,493 posts)I'm curious.
southernyankeebelle
(11,304 posts)can buy a gun.
spin
(17,493 posts)when you mentioned the Stand Your Ground law. That leads me to suspect that if it was repealed you would then have a new goal, possibly repealing concealed carry. If that was repealed you would love to see registration of all firearms and the licensing of all firearm owners. If that worked you would probably want to see the banning and confiscation of all semi-auto firearms.
Of course, I could be wrong.
On the subject of a real background check, I had one when I got my concealed weapons permit.
I have absolutely no problem with better financing for the NICS system in order to help the states input records on a more timely basis and I would like to see the names of those adjudged as having severe mental problems added to the list. I would also see the NICS system required for the private sale of firearms. I feel the NICS system, if improved, is adequate for those who wish to own a firearm but not to carry it concealed.
I would also like to see firearms safety training required in all high schools. With over 300,000,000 firearms owned by 80,000,000 people in our nation such a course makes sense. So does a mandatory first aid course.
I definitely would like to see the current laws better enforced. I would like to see the penalty increased for anyone involved in the straw purchase or smuggling of firearms. I personally feel that such individuals should be considered as an accessory to any crime caused by the firearms they illegally purchased or sold.
southernyankeebelle
(11,304 posts)classes for safety if you are interesting in learning to shoot. In fact in my son's health class they sent home a permission slip for us to sign to allow him to shoot a rifle. Needless to say we were very upset and my husband went to the school and asked why were they teaching this in a health class and why didn't they have a opt out for this. I guess there must have been other parents who felt the same way because a couple of years later they stopped doing it. As you guess I hate guns. I grewup in a military family and my husband also retired. But I think there are way to many crazy people walking around with guns, period.
I will say this much I have no problem if you are a hunter and want to hunt for your food and store at your home. I have no problems at all.
It is your right to keep them. But I know damn well with the NRA scaring people that Obama wants to take away your gun rights people are going out and buying tons of guns. It is dangerous. It's that simple.
It is your right to have. It is my right not to. If I could change some of the laws I would. You have made many good suggestions I could agree with. It might help but then again I don't know.
spin
(17,493 posts)there is an excellent chance that a child who had never been exposed to a weapon will find himself in a situation where he finds a loaded gun or is watching someone handle one.
I remember a teenage girl who was talking to me about her boyfriend and some other guys handling a firearm in her presence. It was chilling as her boyfriend was a total idiot. I explained the basics of firearm safety to her and told her she would be very wise to leave the area if she ever again found herself around fools playing with guns.
Even parents who do their best to never expose their children to firearms have to realize that there is an excellent chance that their children will be around a firearm or others with firearms during their life. A young trained person might ask his friend who is handling a semi-auto pistol if he had checked to see if the firearm was unloaded. If the guy holds up the magazine from the weapon and says, "It's unloaded, I pulled out the clip", the trained individual might ask if he had racked the slide to make sure there wasn't a round in the chamber.
It is true that fear of Obama and his possible future gun control plans has caused firearm sales to skyrocket and often people with little or no training have decided to buy a firearm. Once again, if they had taken a high school class on firearm safety, they might be more knowledgeable. Some tragic accidents would be avoided.
I totally agree that we both have a right to chose to own or not own firearms. Often if a person asks me about buying his first gun, I talk about all the responsibilities and the danger of owning firearms. I tell them to first take a gun safety course. I actually have talked several people out of buying firearms.
The other suggestions that I made might work but with the opposition from the right, I doubt if they could ever be passed into law.
southernyankeebelle
(11,304 posts)guns. How about them going to a gun safety class before they are sold a gun and they have to produce a certificate that they pass the class. That might help people to stop and think.
I also had a young brother-in-law that died hunting. His daughters bought him a shotgun for christmas. He and a friend went hunting after christmas in the mountains and when they were getting ready to go home he was putting his rifle back into the truck cab and somehow the rifle got caught of the blanket and it had a hair trigger and it went off and killed him instantly. Needless to say his friend freaked out and it was a mess. He was an avid hunting and he knew gun safety but just once his mind wasn't on what he was doing I guess. So accidents happens to the best of people.
spin
(17,493 posts)and sky divers have to have a license. Many states require a hunter's safety course before you can get a hunting license.
I have no problem with a requirement that a person who purchases a firearm has to have a certificate that they passed a firearms safety class.
southernyankeebelle
(11,304 posts)spin
(17,493 posts)There is an old Arabian proverb which states:
If the camel once gets his nose in the tent, his body will soon follow.
It is true that those who want to eventually ban and confiscate all firearms realize that they will have far more success in achieving their goal if they use an incremental approach. Realizing this, the NRA has decided to oppose any and all new gun control efforts.
However there are a large number of people in our nation who do not want to see all firearms banned and confiscated but wish for the implementation of truly reasonable laws, improvements in existing laws and better enforcement of those laws. They really have no problem with those who own firearms as long as they are honest, responsible, sane and trained in firearm safety.
If the NRA and the groups who oppose gun ownership were able to sit down and work on compromises, we might see a reduction in tragedies caused by firearms.
Unfortunately we seem to live in a era where nobody has any interest in finding a middle ground and compromising on any issue. The people we elect are largely divided into two parties who feel their job is similar to members of two different football teams such as the Steelers and the Browns. The object is win the game for your side and to not allow the other team to score any points.
With this prevalent attitude we never make any headway on any important issues we face.
We may differ in our views but if we can ever learn to work together as we once were able to, we might once more make the U.S.A a nation that leads the world and is a good example of Representative Democracy.
southernyankeebelle
(11,304 posts)Speaker of the House he said there will be no more compromising and ever since we have been in a combat zone in congress. The country is losing the art of compromise. Republicans are not willing to put that hand out there.
spin
(17,493 posts)TBF
(31,919 posts)They will fight tooth and nail for those gun laws.
Dragonfli
(10,622 posts)I did not support or apologize for ALEC.
It was a real eye opener for me, I thought we only had financial conservatives here posing as blue dogs, I have learned since that many are also socially conservative, I had to ask myself, are these people really republican? I mean, they share all the same views, is a D really all it takes for a Republican to be called Democrat?
Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)whining about hosts and juries in a forum besides H/M. It had nothing to do with any argument about guns or SYG.
Dragonfli
(10,622 posts)The post itself was trying to answer the questions asked after I could not reply in the original GUN thread.
The offensive thing that had everyone a twitter was I tried to explain ALEC authored nearly identical SYG type laws across the country.
3 posters basically said that were untrue and I should post proof. I did, it got locked, the excuse why hardly matters, all the redacted stuff was about ALEC, they have a nice size fan club over there and I got the hint not to return.
I will not return there, you win, too much like an NRA site over there and I don't like being redacted for telling the truth.
Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)There are lots of posters in that forum who argue for stricter gun laws. They don't get locked, because they don't spend their entire OP complaining about Meta topics.
Dragonfli
(10,622 posts)over there. Whatever gets them off, it's cool. When the getting off includes killing a young unarmed man I may interject, but not in the ALEC forum, that is a safe haven for gun strokers and comers.
I will do it in future in GD where it is not stacked against me before I post a word.
kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)OKNancy
(41,832 posts)It's like a script or something.
PLEASE don't tweet DU links to any of the Zimmerman/Martin threads. I believe the trolls are finding these threads via twitter, not google.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)spin
(17,493 posts)that under our system of law we don't send people to jail merely because the news media feels they are guilty.
I fault Zimmerman because he failed to follow the instructors of the dispatcher and confronted Martin. That was a poor decision and a tragedy occurred because of it.
At this time with the information that I have gleaned from the news, I would like to see Zimmerman arrested and end up facing a jury who will determine his guilt or innocence.
Justice wanted
(2,657 posts)justice was botch from the first second and truth is being covered up and a smear campaign is being perform on a child WELL WE CAN'T EXPECT JUSTICE! As the facts keep coming to light all facts point to Zimmerman being guilty as hell AND should not be defended in any freakin way.
spin
(17,493 posts)and basically I agree with your comments based on the information that I have gleaned from the news.
However through the years I have learned that it's wise to wait to see both sides of a story. For example the JonBenét Ramsey case. I was positive that the mother killed the child. I was wrong. (I hate it when I'm wrong.)
JonBenét Ramsey
JonBenét Patricia Ramsey (English pronunciation: /ˌdʒɒnbəˈneɪ pəˈtrɪʃə ˈræmzi/; August 6, 1990 December 25, 1996) was an American child beauty pageant contestant who was murdered in her home in Boulder, Colorado, in 1996. The six-year-old's body was found in the basement of the family home nearly eight hours after she was reported missing. She had been struck on the head and strangled. The case, which after several grand jury hearings remains unsolved, continues to generate public and media interest.
Colorado law enforcement agencies initially suspected JonBenét's parents and her brother. However, the family was partially exonerated in 2003 when DNA taken from the victim's clothes suggested they were not involved.[1][2] Her parents would not be completely cleared until July 2008.[3] In February 2009, the Boulder Police Department took the case back from the district attorney to reopen the investigation.[4]emphasis added
Media coverage of the case has often focused on JonBenét's participation in child beauty pageants, her parents' affluence and the unusual evidence in the case. Reports have also questioned the police's overall handling of the case. Several defamation suits have been filed against several media organizations by Ramsey family members and their friends over reporting of the murder.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JonBen%C3%A9t_Ramsey
In my opinion, unless more information comes out, I can see no reason for Zimmerman to not have followed the dispatcher's instructions. By leaving his vehicle and confronting Martin, I feel he escalated the situation. I feel, and some experts agree, that the Stand Your Ground law does not apply in this case.
joshcryer
(62,265 posts)...in which you think that is the case. While I do think he is toast and should be jailed and summarily tried, I do think he deserves a defense, though what he did is truly indefensible.
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)He won't want to go through a trial, and the prosecutor will have a circus on his hands if it does go to trial.
joshcryer
(62,265 posts)There's no evidence whatsoever that his original claims of self defense have any standing, so any competent lawyer will tell him to plead.
Justice wanted
(2,657 posts)joshcryer
(62,265 posts)...and all the evidence points to him committing murder.
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)911 calls (which can be made clearer by the FBI), medical records (or the lack of them), etc.
Apparently there's enough evidence for many people to have found him guilty without a trial or seeing all the evidence that exists so far, right?
I suspect some police officers' careers will suffer, as well.
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)murder, who seem to want GZ dead. That is dangerous and a mob mentality and something I'm sure people in a calm state of mind don't want to see happen.
The police either decided they would let GZ go free and/or not investigate, but it's being investigated now by both the FBI and the DOJ. Yet you have people trying to find GZ and post his whereabouts so crazy angry people will know where he is...to the point that false addresses are being given out, and an elderly couple has had to flee their home for fear of their lives (their name is unfortunately Zimmerman).
There is no evidence whatsoever that GZ is guilty of first degree murder, yet many people seem to be saying he's guilty of just that. There are various degrees of murder, as well as negligent homicide, manslaughter, etc.
We are not judge and jury. Everyone with half a brain knows that something went very wrong with the police here, and that the situation and the death were caused by GZ. But we the public don't decide guilt or innocence; a jury does that. And you would very strongly support that, if you were in a situation where you looked very guilty. THINKING someone is guilty is very different from guilt being proven beyond a reasonable doubt in a court, before a jury of 12 people.
He'll probably plead guilty to a lesser charge, dontcha think?
DiverDave
(4,874 posts)presumed innocent folks, that has saved LOTS of people that were.
Angry, bloodthirsty crowds have snuffed out more innocents then I care to count.
Do I think he killed that young man? YES and he should spend the rest of his life in
prison for it.
If there was a cover-up then the people that did it should be charged as
accessories after the fact.
Everybody needs to CHILL OUT!, yes the spin is aggravating, the cover-up
and smear campaign makes me see red too.
But running people out of their homes because they have the same LAST name?
SHAME on the people that did that.
Mob mentality sure aint pretty, is it?
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)according to the 911 call by GZ to the police; he was on hte police call, when he said that the kid was approaching him with something in his hand. Martin's girlfriend says she heard him say, "Why are you following me?" then the call drops.
GZ was following Martin, and Martin noticed.
I'm wondering if GZ thought Trayvon had a gun in his hand (it was a canned drink or the cell phone), and attacked or shot Trayvon at that point.
spin
(17,493 posts)and unfortunately Martin is dead.
If I was in Martin's shoes, I would have been very worried about the strange individual who was following me.
If Zimmerman approached him and flashed or drew his weapon, Martin would have every right to attempt to defend himself. He would have good reason to fear that Zimmerman planned to seriously injure or kill him. It is conceivable that Martin attempted to disarm Zimmerman and failed.
DiverDave
(4,874 posts)if he didnt have a gun, he'd be cowering in his home.
But a gun in his hand?
He's a big tough guy, and he proved it.
By shooting a kid, yeah, some MAN.
The NRA works for the gun manufacturers they dont care who
has a gun, just as long as they get paid.
And scared people are great customers.
spin
(17,493 posts)We don't run around confronting suspicious people, but we are not cop wannabes or vigilantes.
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)There was something wrong with GZ. I mean, seriously...he spent a lot of time walking around and driving around with a gun, looking for suspicious characters. We all want a safe neighborhood, but when you don't have to do that, and you choose to do that instead of, say, settling in after work to relax in front of the TV, or exercising, or playing with your dogs, or doing any number of things...that's just weird. Esp when he wasn't a captain of a neighborhood crime watch (or so the crime watch group says...I'm not so sure who I believe about that).
spin
(17,493 posts)You often find such people working as a security guard.
I should point out that I have known many excellent security guards but even they would admit that some guards love to play cop.
Before I retired I worked at a facility that had a guard force. Their main job was to walk through the factory and check do a regular fire check to lower the cost of insurance. If they encountered intruders, they would call the police.
Once while working the graveyard shift, I was alone in a very large room and I heard the guard enter and walk down the hallway whistling with a large key chain clanking away on his belt. I stopped him and said, "You know if I was an intruder, I would have heard you coming a mile away."
He just smiled and said, "That's the idea."
WillyT
(72,631 posts)And... As I've said many many times... "Short-Man's Complex" has very little to do with height.
Present company excluded of course...
Major Hogwash
(17,656 posts)But, go ahead and ask one of them what state they live in, and they will clam up tighter than a 6 month old clam.
Doesn't make much sense, but then they never did.
Response to WillyT (Original post)
devilgrrl This message was self-deleted by its author.
randome
(34,845 posts)I have not weighed in much on Trayvon's death because there is no doubt to me his death was needless and can even be termed 'murder'.
But the range of DU'ers who come here is immense.
There are those who truly DO think that Zimmerman does not deserve all the blame.
There are those who want to react against the backlash re: gun laws.
There are those who want to support the police.
There are those who, for personal reasons, need to demonstrate their objectivity by taking the position opposite to the majority.
It takes all kinds to make up a forum as diverse as DU.
I've been here since 2001 and my suggestion is to take each comment for what it's worth and not disparage people who disagree with you.
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)Disparaging those who have a different viewpoint isn't useful or respectful. I, for one, have not seen one post "defending" Zimmerman's actions. I HAVE seen posts urging for calm reflection, waiting for all the facts, not hunting him down and killing him, all the while stating and restating that the poster agreed that GZ killed the boy illegally and should be investigated and charged.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)Some moron or group of morons opened a ton of new DU accounts...One gets banned, they just move on to the next name
Aerows
(39,961 posts)and I think Trayvon Martin's death was a murder.
Please don't categorize everyone. Many of us have a brain and are disgusted with this lack of justice. I know I am disgusted.
MineralMan
(146,189 posts)Rex
(65,616 posts)I thought everyone knew he murdered a child with a gun and in cold blood. What else is there to say really? The guy is a murderer.
PotatoChip
(3,186 posts)Some of the 'defenses' for Zimmerman border on ludicrous imo.
Though newbies seem to make up the largest group of Zimmerman defenders, I've seen a few long timers chiming in as well. My only theory is that maybe these are long time gungeon types? I've never posted in that forum, but have checked it out from time to time. Some pretty uhm, interesting viewpoints down in there... I'll just leave it at that.
joshcryer
(62,265 posts)Went to jury duty recently and the judge asked, "Are you here with any preconceptions as to the verdict you must have in the back of your mind? If so, please raise your hand."
One person raised their hand.
The judge then said, "That's about right, only one or two raise their hand. That is the correct answer. You must come here with the preconceptions that the man sitting over there is innocent."
Trick question, but still good.
Me, I'm not to worked up about that though because 1) people get the wrong idea if I make that argument and 2) I'm not on the jury, not in the jurisdiction, none of that. I'm just a guy on an internet forum. So I'm happy with vilifying Zimmerman, someone who appears to be a murderous bigoted bastard.
Rex
(65,616 posts)I won't be on a jury for the gungeon.
spanone
(135,627 posts)Major Hogwash
(17,656 posts)This is about as ugly as it gets.
Witnesses were not talked to until 5 days after the murder.
And the police were leading the witnesses with questions.
CTyankee
(63,768 posts)joshcryer
(62,265 posts)Although I don't see a real cross section of users then and now. Some have since been TS'd.
RZM
(8,556 posts)And not really because they were both accused of sexual crimes. Both men are famous and their defenders were more coming to the aid of their public personas (Socialist politician and Wikileaker). I think their defenders were less defending the men and more trying to show that they were 100 percent in favor of socialism or Wikileaks and 100 percent against the enemies of both. Plus the defenders in those cases immediately claimed vast conspiracies, again based solely on who the men were. None of them were defending the act, because nobody here supports sexual assault. They believed the charges were completely fabricated.
Defenders of Zimmerman and kind of the reverse of that. None of them care at all about the man because he's a nobody. And the act isn't in dispute - nobody is claiming that Zimmerman didn't shoot Trayvon. The defenders here are supporting using deadly force to protect oneself, since just about all Zimmerman defenders believe that Trayvon was beating him when the shots were fired.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)most are either new racist trolls, or long time gun-obsessed. Many of the gun-obsessed will knee-jerk a position to be on the side of a weapon over a body.
Rex
(65,616 posts)shows Zimmerman clean and pressed walking through the police station. Even gets to lean up against a wall for a minute...what a bunch of guys! The cops are so nice to him, I mean I would be a little worried about a man that just killed someone. I am not a cop, so their actions seem strange to me in the video.
The Second Stone
(2,900 posts)the unfortunate nature of the case is that it was badly investigated and is being weakly prosecuted.
Mr. Zimmerman's rights are very important, but so are the public's rights to a trial. No charges and no trial is a gross miscarriage of justice in my opinion.