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Tue Mar 27, 2012, 12:28 PM

White Men Rule

http://blogs.bostonmagazine.com/boston_daily/2012/03/26/white-men-rule/

I have been a white male all my life and to tell you the truth, I have found it to be a pretty sweet deal. If you doubt me and would like to see a demonstration of just how sweet it is to be a white guy in modern day America – just come with me and stand in the visitor’s gallery of the U.S. Senate sometime when they are all gathered for a vote and look down upon that fleshy sea of men. Of the 100 members of the U.S. Senate, just 17 are women. And in the entire history of our country, only six African American have served in the Senate. White men rule.

(snip)

Wherever you look and by almost any metric, any statistic, it works out to be a pretty sweet deal to start out life as a white male. And if I ever become deranged and suddenly start to kill all of the people who annoy me on Facebook with a potato peeler, I have the comfort of knowing I will stand a lower chance of being executed for my crimes just because I am white. If you’ve seen Facebook these days, you know what a relief that can be.

So I cannot, for the life of me, understand why so many white men like me can be found whining about how tough it is to be a white man. It’s a mystery to me how they came to feel so beset on every side by feminists, minorities, and “the system.” When in fact, the system is so stacked in our favor, it’s almost embarrassing. It’s like our mothers set up the world for us. For white men, life is almost like T-ball. We are almost guaranteed to get on base. But lately, some of us seem to be having issues with self-esteem.

(snip)

So it’s especially strange to see white men like Senator Chuck Grassley (R-Iowa) and various “Men’s Rights” groups complaining bitterly about the re-authorization of the Violence Against Women Act, which may come up for a vote this week. Grassley and the far right don’t want to see it pass in its current form because it extends some of its protections to LGBT victims, Native American victims, and some illegal immigrants. Because of what? Because it should be OK to brutalize them?

(more at link)

199 replies, 25032 views

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Arrow 199 replies Author Time Post
Reply White Men Rule (Original post)
redqueen Mar 2012 OP
Elric Mar 2012 #1
drm604 Mar 2012 #2
daleanime Mar 2012 #6
2ndAmForComputers Apr 2012 #178
el_bryanto Mar 2012 #5
Elric Mar 2012 #9
el_bryanto Mar 2012 #13
ellisonz Mar 2012 #26
Hugabear Mar 2012 #34
Zorra Mar 2012 #36
Spazito Apr 2012 #140
LanternWaste Mar 2012 #41
Rex Mar 2012 #55
siligut Mar 2012 #73
1StrongBlackMan Mar 2012 #79
butterfly77 Mar 2012 #105
Number23 Apr 2012 #173
1StrongBlackMan Mar 2012 #78
joshcryer Mar 2012 #115
BlueToTheBone Mar 2012 #123
Fawke Em Apr 2012 #181
Rex Apr 2012 #194
lumberjack_jeff Mar 2012 #24
polly7 Mar 2012 #119
Darth_Kitten Apr 2012 #182
Dokkie Apr 2012 #199
loyalsister Apr 2012 #196
Iggo Mar 2012 #59
badtoworse Mar 2012 #3
freshwest Mar 2012 #18
caseymoz Mar 2012 #37
seabeyond Mar 2012 #40
caseymoz Mar 2012 #112
Rex Mar 2012 #57
MrSlayer Mar 2012 #4
Mosaic Mar 2012 #27
aspieextrodinare Apr 2012 #198
hifiguy Mar 2012 #7
el_bryanto Mar 2012 #12
hifiguy Mar 2012 #15
Romulox Mar 2012 #8
el_bryanto Mar 2012 #10
hifiguy Mar 2012 #11
Romulox Mar 2012 #21
el_bryanto Mar 2012 #67
Romulox Mar 2012 #83
el_bryanto Mar 2012 #108
stevenleser Mar 2012 #116
Romulox Mar 2012 #117
Number23 Apr 2012 #174
stevenleser Apr 2012 #175
Number23 Apr 2012 #179
stevenleser Apr 2012 #189
Number23 Apr 2012 #193
redqueen Apr 2012 #195
Number23 Apr 2012 #197
redqueen Apr 2012 #176
Number23 Apr 2012 #180
redqueen Apr 2012 #186
Romulox Mar 2012 #118
amandabeech Apr 2012 #168
deutsey Apr 2012 #190
amandabeech Apr 2012 #191
HiPointDem Apr 2012 #138
Javaman Mar 2012 #14
-..__... Mar 2012 #16
el_bryanto Mar 2012 #19
-..__... Mar 2012 #20
el_bryanto Mar 2012 #63
LanternWaste Mar 2012 #42
Upton Mar 2012 #69
arcane1 Mar 2012 #17
RufusTFirefly Mar 2012 #22
seabeyond Mar 2012 #28
Aerows Mar 2012 #45
lumberjack_jeff Mar 2012 #23
Aerows Mar 2012 #48
MellowDem Mar 2012 #60
Aerows Mar 2012 #64
MellowDem Mar 2012 #72
jeff47 Apr 2012 #144
lumberjack_jeff Mar 2012 #82
HiPointDem Apr 2012 #139
lumberjack_jeff Apr 2012 #147
HiPointDem Apr 2012 #149
lumberjack_jeff Apr 2012 #162
HiPointDem Apr 2012 #164
lumberjack_jeff Apr 2012 #165
HiPointDem Apr 2012 #166
Darth_Kitten Apr 2012 #184
lumberjack_jeff Apr 2012 #185
hifiguy Mar 2012 #62
Aerows Mar 2012 #66
chrisa Mar 2012 #128
lumberjack_jeff Mar 2012 #130
jeff47 Apr 2012 #146
MellowDem Mar 2012 #25
Nye Bevan Mar 2012 #31
lumberjack_jeff Mar 2012 #32
ellisonz Mar 2012 #29
Aerows Mar 2012 #50
ellisonz Mar 2012 #58
Nye Bevan Mar 2012 #30
Aerows Mar 2012 #51
MellowDem Mar 2012 #68
JonLP24 Apr 2012 #161
Yavin4 Mar 2012 #33
Nye Bevan Mar 2012 #35
Cleita Mar 2012 #43
Aerows Mar 2012 #52
lumberjack_jeff Mar 2012 #106
Cleita Mar 2012 #113
lumberjack_jeff Mar 2012 #120
Cleita Mar 2012 #121
Yavin4 Mar 2012 #56
MellowDem Mar 2012 #38
lumberjack_jeff Mar 2012 #39
Aerows Mar 2012 #54
lumberjack_jeff Mar 2012 #84
wickerwoman Apr 2012 #167
BlueIris Mar 2012 #44
Taverner Mar 2012 #88
ErikJ Mar 2012 #46
LanternWaste Mar 2012 #47
Upton Mar 2012 #49
ellisonz Mar 2012 #71
Upton Mar 2012 #77
ellisonz Mar 2012 #81
Upton Mar 2012 #85
ellisonz Mar 2012 #93
HiPointDem Apr 2012 #145
LanternWaste Mar 2012 #100
MineralMan Apr 2012 #141
caseymoz Mar 2012 #53
Jamaal510 Mar 2012 #61
ErikJ Mar 2012 #90
DaveJ Mar 2012 #65
MellowDem Mar 2012 #70
el_bryanto Mar 2012 #76
JoePhilly Mar 2012 #74
HiPointDem Apr 2012 #143
JoePhilly Apr 2012 #155
HiPointDem Apr 2012 #156
JoePhilly Apr 2012 #157
Zorra Mar 2012 #75
slackmaster Mar 2012 #80
Taverner Mar 2012 #87
RZM Mar 2012 #91
Taverner Mar 2012 #86
MellowDem Mar 2012 #89
Taverner Mar 2012 #92
MellowDem Mar 2012 #94
Taverner Mar 2012 #95
MellowDem Mar 2012 #96
Taverner Mar 2012 #98
MellowDem Mar 2012 #122
stevenleser Mar 2012 #97
Taverner Mar 2012 #99
stevenleser Mar 2012 #101
Taverner Mar 2012 #103
stevenleser Mar 2012 #109
Taverner Mar 2012 #110
stevenleser Mar 2012 #111
hifiguy Mar 2012 #104
ErikJ Mar 2012 #107
He loved Big Brother Apr 2012 #137
redqueen Mar 2012 #124
He loved Big Brother Apr 2012 #136
ErikJ Mar 2012 #102
ellisonz Mar 2012 #114
didact Mar 2012 #125
chrisa Mar 2012 #126
redqueen Mar 2012 #127
chrisa Mar 2012 #129
Liberty Tree Mar 2012 #131
eek MD Mar 2012 #132
redqueen Mar 2012 #133
stevenleser Mar 2012 #134
eek MD Mar 2012 #135
HiPointDem Apr 2012 #148
Romulox Apr 2012 #151
HiPointDem Apr 2012 #152
bart95 Apr 2012 #177
Union Scribe Apr 2012 #159
treestar Apr 2012 #183
redqueen Apr 2012 #187
HiPointDem Apr 2012 #150
redqueen Apr 2012 #153
HiPointDem Apr 2012 #154
Union Scribe Apr 2012 #158
Kaleva Apr 2012 #142
Shrek Apr 2012 #160
dmallind Apr 2012 #163
uponit7771 Apr 2012 #171
whoawhat Apr 2012 #188
Warren DeMontague Apr 2012 #169
Zax2me Apr 2012 #170
Skip Intro Apr 2012 #172
WRabbit Apr 2012 #192

Response to redqueen (Original post)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 12:30 PM

1. Yawn

 

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Response to Elric (Reply #1)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 12:33 PM

2. Sleepy?

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Response to drm604 (Reply #2)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 12:40 PM

6. Just needs some time to get up to speed....

I suggest more coffee.

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Response to drm604 (Reply #2)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 01:13 AM

178. Yes. With the fish.

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Response to Elric (Reply #1)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 12:36 PM

5. What a well reasoned response. Thanks for participating

I mean the insight you display. I personally would have thought that with recent events, including the shooting of that kid and the furor over some of the characters in the Hunger Games being portrayed by black people, revisiting the concept of White Privilege (or White Male Privilege might be worthwhile. But then I saw your yawn. I mean - it's just boring thinking about how stacked this nation is in favor of White People. Why can't we focus on fun and enjoyable topics, like how much of a stiff Romney is?

Bryant

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #5)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 12:43 PM

9. Simple

 

I find the blogger's whining both boring and self-serving. I've never found being white as some kind of privilege. Work paycheck to paycheck like 99% of the rest of the people in this country, regardless of their color.

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Response to Elric (Reply #9)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 12:49 PM

13. Well I'm a white male and I can tell you that White Male privilege exists.

And if you don't see it, perhaps you need to dig a little deeper.

Bryant

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #13)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 01:41 PM

26. +1

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Response to Elric (Reply #9)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 01:55 PM

34. Of course you wouldn't. That's kind of the whole point.

Being a white male does give you advantages in life. You're just so used to them that you don't even realize.

If you were black, hispanic, female, gay, or some other non-majority status, I guarantee you that you would understand.

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Response to Hugabear (Reply #34)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 02:07 PM

36. Exactly. Well said.

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Response to Hugabear (Reply #34)

Tue Apr 3, 2012, 10:52 AM

140. Well said!

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Response to Elric (Reply #9)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 02:23 PM

41. We often interpret a thing to better validate our own biases and prejudices.

"I find the blogger's whining both boring and self-serving..."

We often interpret a thing to better validate our own biases and prejudices. I imagine it's human nature, but with perseverance and a bit of discipline, we can often struggle past our own dogma's, and in doing so, allow ourselves to see more than that which only serves to defend our own world-views.

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Response to Elric (Reply #9)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 02:43 PM

55. Who said anything about work?

I guess you don't understand.

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Response to Elric (Reply #9)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 03:09 PM

73. Being white is not a privilege

Nor is being male, but white men are awarded privileges for no other reason than they are white and male.

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Response to siligut (Reply #73)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 03:23 PM

79. Exactly! n/t

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Response to siligut (Reply #73)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 04:41 PM

105. And they make the laws...

that will benefit them the most in the long run.. They also divide up land so that they are separate from most of the population in certain areas.

When they write bills they make sure that those jobs will go to certain areas,they discriminate and then say certain people don't want to work,etc..

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Response to siligut (Reply #73)

Thu Apr 5, 2012, 10:11 PM

173. Clear. Concise. Succinct.

Perfect.

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Response to Elric (Reply #9)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 03:21 PM

78. Perhaps you should consider ...

that it is a priviledge that your being a white male prevents you from being subjected to the obstacles that non-white/non-males are routinely subjected to?

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Response to Elric (Reply #9)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 06:04 PM

115. You clearly aren't in touch with the white experience.

The white experience is fucking amazing. Buying something in the grocery store and the black guys' $20 is scrutinized while your $100 as you come into line buying something even cheaper (more suspicious) is happily put in the cash register.

Go live in the ghetto, and tell me about how not privileged you are.

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Response to Elric (Reply #9)

Wed Mar 28, 2012, 12:19 PM

123. Then you haven't spent a minute

in self reflection and sound narcissistic to me.

See ya, wouldn't want to be ya.

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Response to Elric (Reply #9)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 04:06 AM

181. You know what you can do?

You can walk in any neighborhood with much, much, much less of a chance of being shot or raped.

Yea for YOU!

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Response to Elric (Reply #9)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 02:20 AM

194. Wow, pulling out the old socks?

Member since 2001...28 posts. 0_0

Must be getting close to desperate time in Lollipop Troll Land.

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #5)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 01:35 PM

24. White privilege absolutely exists.

But it also extends to white women.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #24)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 06:37 PM

119. +1. Yes, it does.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #24)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 07:46 AM

182. Really? News to me.

n/t

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Response to Darth_Kitten (Reply #182)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 06:54 PM

199. Ofc

 

You dont see because you have lived with it so long that its now your normal. Walk a mile in the shoes of a minority woman and you will see.

:kidding:

But you probably now sees how it feels when a white man who hasnt benefited from this comes and posts about how he has never benefited from this and people claim that he has. This is white privilage is just for soem white men and not all. All the white men idiots in Washington send other white men to die war or send to roth in prison for smoking their prefered drugs are the ones who enjoy advantage and I bet some white women do to but as we can see you are not part of it.

Also majority of voters are women so you got to understand that it is women who actually grant these guys the powers they have by voting or not coming out to vote em out. And seeing as the whites and women are the majority of eligible voters in the US, we can all blame white women for our "white men" problem. So now you know whose to blame

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #24)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 03:17 AM

196. Yes

White men may sometimes listen to white women more than people of color, or LGBT people. White women are only one degree from the preferred majority status and are often partnered with a more privileged individual. Yet, we are still ultimately relegated to a citizenship category that is to be handled.

The fact that white men who are part of the larger power structure are still able to publicly call women sluts and make lewd requests of them without losing their jobs reveals that women are not considered worthy of basic respect. No doubt some men nod along because they have been so victimized by women.

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #5)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 02:50 PM

59. My dog said he heard someone whistling over here.

Search for images of "Elric of Melnibone".

Be un-surprised.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 12:34 PM

3. Why do advertisers try to make us look stupid?

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Response to badtoworse (Reply #3)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 01:06 PM

18. Advertisers make everyone look stupid. Don't buy their crap. Nothing's that necessary needs an Ad.

I haven't enjoyed watching men or women being shown as thoughtless, shallow, coarse, etc. in the media. The ones paying for the advertisements, like those paying for Rush to spew his swill, should be bankrupted.

People go to media for information, for learning, for relaxation after a hard day's work having to give their brains and bodies and hours of their life away. Te media environment of the last score of years has been coarsening American society and now kids think insulting, grunting and farting is what makes a person popular.

It's a culture that has taught people to despise others. And it's intentional, and not just directed at white males, but that was noteworthy at one time. It's part of the dumbing down of America.

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Response to badtoworse (Reply #3)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 02:07 PM

37. Because maybe "we" have a sense of humor?


Or, maybe "we" think the joke is on those other white guys, not us? That's quite possibly it.

Either way, because it sells, and if you look at beer commercials, where the men aren't being very bright, nor particularly respectable, men still buy the product.

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Response to caseymoz (Reply #37)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 02:17 PM

40. i cannot tell you how many men embrace the stupid tv guy as an excuse not to

do the stuff they dont want to do.

just being a guy

so though there are the men that resent those stupid men commercials and roles on tv, there are as many more men that embrace it as being fact. trying getting thru one of those men it is not innate, biological behavior, but learned and conditioned.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #40)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 05:17 PM

112. I haven't heard one guy, ever,


call for a boycott of products that depict guys as being dumb. No, all they want to do is complain, and they take the complaints, for some reason, to feminists and the women's movement! As though feminism benefits from selling those products.

So, why don't men protest when they see a commercial that makes comic digs at their sex? Why do they buy Jim Beam or Budweiser when these products insult them? I can only guess.

Fact is, hboth sexes tend to make different mistakes, and these are somewhat consistent within their genders. For example: the filthy apartment is prevalent enough with single guys, not as much because that stereotype has been suggested to them (though it's one reason) but mostly because guys are better at ignoring their immediate surroundings and concentrating on other things. Unconsciously, they might take some pride in that. Hence, a man can be lazier about cleaning his apartment before he begins to feel uncomfortable. This is not a trait that can be as easily socialized into women.

For women, well, you know the "joke" about if your girlfriend asks you if she's looking too heavy, there's only one right answer. There are other traits that common enough that they become jokes.

There's a whole set of these traits that are fairly consistent within respective genders.



I think you have a double-negative error in your title-lead. I can't make heads or tails of it.

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Response to badtoworse (Reply #3)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 02:46 PM

57. Try? They make us look like morans.

The latest Taco Bell commercial well attest to that.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 12:34 PM

4. Rich, w.a.s.p. men rule.

 

And they hate me, a working class white guy as much as they hate everyone else who isn't like them. The trick they pull is convincing us that we could be like them if it weren't for those damned minorities. Sadly, a lot of my brethren believe that shit and thus you get the teabaggers.

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Response to MrSlayer (Reply #4)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 01:42 PM

27. Brilliant comment

If we had real truth spoken in schools everyone would know this. Divide an conquer is how the 1% keeps us down, now in 2012 this needs to be common knowledge.

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Response to MrSlayer (Reply #4)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 06:09 PM

198. Exactly

 

I am a poor, disabled white man. If you think I rule you have another thing coming. I can't get a job that offers me more than 20 hours a week (admittedly at a decent wage 10-13 an hour depending on what I am doing at the time) and most places don't want to hire me. It doesn't help that I am trying to get into a female dominated field where the teachers seem to say "we want more males" but then shun them when they get there. Me rule, not really.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 12:41 PM

7. A certain type of white men have it great.

Those from middle-class or higher socioeconomic backgrounds.

I am a white man of middle years from a very working class background. Made it through state university with all the honors I could win and graduated from law school with the FLOTUS as one of my classmates. Most of the last 20+ years I have made a subsistence level wage or somewhat higher. The average income for my classmates in private practice is somewhere in the mid six figures and my best friend in law school makes $3-4M per year.

My working class background together with what I much later discovered to be my Asperger's characteristics kept me from ever getting anywhere in my chosen profession.

In the first interview I ever had with a law firm (for a summer clerkship after first year) I was asked point blank whether my friends were mainly people I knew before I went to college or people I met in college. I was, shall we say, gobsmacked. I didn't get the job offer either.

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Response to hifiguy (Reply #7)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 12:48 PM

12. That is part of white privilege though

People hire people they can empathize with. White Males, who do most of the hiring in our society, may not empathize with people of different skin colors, but it's just as likely they don't empathize with people who send off the wrong kind of signals. Those subconcious signals, some verbal and some non-verbal, that tell an interviewer "I'm like you. I'll be a good fit."

White Male privilege is the simple truth that what we think of as professional, what we think of as classy, what we think of as appropriate office behavior is defined by, as you note, privileged white males. Obviously a poor white is not necessarily going to know how to send off those signals or not be able to, but they have a little bit of a leg up on a poor Black person in that they at least look like the person interviewing them.

Bryant

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #12)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 12:56 PM

15. At the really high-flying levels it's a class thing

more than anything else. Just getting in to an Ivy League school, especially one of the professional schools, implies having survived a certain vetting process. My best friend in law school - the one who now makes millions - is African-American, was raised in very posh surroundings, attended private schools until college, spoke four languages fluently and is movie-star handsome.

He once told me, when we were in school, that I would have a much harder time in the professional world than he was because even though he was a black man, everything eles about him veritably screamed "I am part of the upper crust" whereas everything about me screamed working class oddball who just happened to be intellectually gifted and that the decision makers would pick up on that in two seconds where it would not redound to my benefit. He was right. Brother, was he ever.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 12:43 PM

8. I just want to make sure CLASS is not mentioned here. *Totally* irrelevant! nt

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Response to Romulox (Reply #8)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 12:44 PM

10. Hmmmm. So you don't want us to talk about class? I wonder why not? n/t

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #10)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 12:47 PM

11. I suspect Romulox was being



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Response to hifiguy (Reply #11)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 01:11 PM

21. Indeed. As this thread begins to reveal, we don't even seem to have the vocabulary

to discuss the matter of class.

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Response to Romulox (Reply #21)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 03:01 PM

67. What vocabulary would we need? That we currently lack?

It strikes me that both class and race present problems in America.

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #67)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 03:33 PM

83. Read the thread. People are telling us that CEOs and Senators "prove" the extent of privilege...

It's as if the CLASS of these CEOs and Senators is entirely invisible, to many. They simply haven't been taught to see it, or recognize it.

And therefore the several hundred CEOs of major companies in the US "prove" many,many points that extend far beyond their own gated communities.

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Response to Romulox (Reply #83)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 05:03 PM

108. Hmmmm. But it is both a class and a race issue. Are you denying White Male Privilege?

I get some benefits because I am white. I would get other and in some cases similar but more powerful benefits if I were part of the upper class.

Bryant

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #108)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 06:10 PM

116. I dont usually agree with Romulox, HOWEVER, if given a choice between being a

poor or middle class white man, or a wealthy black man, I'd be a wealthy black man. There is no question that race has an impact, but not nearly as powerful as class.

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #116)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 06:32 PM

117. Thank you for your excellent contributions to this thread.

Sincerely.

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #116)

Thu Apr 5, 2012, 10:16 PM

174. Chris Rock would disagree

(Along with just about everyone else that understands these things.)

One of his most hilarious skits was poking fun at the (almost always white) people who live by the "it's not race, it's class!" mantra despite all evidence suggesting that truly, it really IS race.

He joked several years ago that he knows racism is the most powerful force because "there isn't a white man that would trade places with me. And I'm RICH." I think the truth of that statement is something some people have a hard time coming to grips with, but I do believe that it is true nonetheless.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #174)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 12:14 AM

175. Im a big fan. But does he really think that or is it part of the act?

I would personally trade places with anyone who was wealthy. More when I am not typing on my Android phone...

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #175)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 03:52 AM

179. Ted Koppel did a story a few years ago where he asked several white people if they

think that black people have unfair advantages. Most of these people said "yes." But when he then asked how much it would take for them to change their skin complexions to black, almost without fail they all said that it would take "millions of dollars." Why? Because of all of the stuff (racism, discrimination, oppression etc.) that black people have to deal with. The disconnect is alarming to say the least.

So yes, steven. It IS race, and not class. Our country's economic structure was built on confining entire groups of people to poverty/lower classes BASED ON THEIR RACE. So the idea that now in 2012 that it's suddenly not about race but now solely about class ignores alot of this country's historical as well as present day social, economic and power structure.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #179)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 03:17 PM

189. We're talking past each other...

But when he then asked how much it would take for them to change their skin complexions to black, almost without fail they all said that it would take "millions of dollars." Why? Because of all of the stuff (racism, discrimination, oppression etc.) that black people have to deal with. The disconnect is alarming to say the least.

You do realize that they would in fact change skin color for millions of dollars though. That is exactly what I am saying and one of many points I was trying to get across and discuss with this OP:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002481211

Gender and Race are serious impacts on privilege, no question about it. But they are not as high impact as wealth in my opinion. I would change places with Queen Latifah in a heartbeat and she has the trifecta, Gay, African American female. Why? Because she is wealthy. But lets put it another way, do you think that Queen Latifah, or any other wealthy Gay African American female would gladly change places with a middle class straight white man in order to get white or male or straight privilege (or the combo)? Do you think Chris Rock would change places with a middle class white man to get white privilege?

I'll p/m you more personal info shortly.

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #189)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 11:58 PM

193. No, we're not talking past each other

You are not understanding the point.

You do realize that they would in fact change skin color for millions of dollars though.

That is not the point. The point is that with one breath, these people said that blacks are given advantages that no one else has. When asked if they would become black, these same people said they'd do it but only if they were allowed to become stinking rich in the process because of the indignities, racism and discrimination that black people endure. So either black people get unfair advantages or we get shit on all of the time. It cannot be both.

And for every black millionaire there are literally probably 793,835 black NON-millionaires who have to endure all of the crap these white people inadvertently admitted that blacks endure but without the dough. This is not about class. THIS IS ABOUT RACE.

And I don't believe that Queen Latifah has ever said that she is gay.

do you think that Queen Latifah, or any other wealthy Gay African American female would gladly change places with a middle class straight white man in order to get white or male or straight privilege (or the combo)?

If it meant that they could be judged as individuals. If it meant their chances of being the victim of a violent crime was lessened. If it meant that they could get turned down for opportunities and not worry about if it was because they were the "wrong" skin color. If it meant they could catch a damn cab. I think alot of people would trade places in a heartbeat. Money is not everything and never has been. Dignity means alot to people too. In an ideal world, black people would have the same dignities afforded to us that whites do without having to change the color of our skin.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #193)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 02:28 AM

195. "Money is not everything and never has been. Dignity means alot to people too."

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Response to redqueen (Reply #195)

Sat Apr 7, 2012, 05:58 PM

197. Thank you, much.

I have to admit I used to get you and scarletwoman mixed up. (The red thing??) But lately, you both have been kicking so much ass on this topic, I don't think that's such a bad thing.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #174)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 12:18 AM

176. I knew this stuff wouldn't be obvious to everyone.

But damn... I didn't think it was this bad.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #176)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 03:57 AM

180. Yep. It is bad. Welcome to my world

The difference though between people like steven and some other folks is that I think that steven is actually smart/compassionate/able to step outside of himself and see things through other people's eyes and grow from a conversation about this.

Others are just determined to minimize/ignore the life experiences of people of color, take everything said as an insult (thereby lessening any chance of actually HEARING what is said) and continue blithely through life having convinced themselves that white men are "oppressed too" ( ) or black people/women/other people of color are just "looking to be offended."

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Response to Number23 (Reply #180)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 11:22 AM

186. Sheeeeit... I've had this crap going on in my own family my whole life.

I'm bi racial and there are three different races in my family. But this is the south, so I figured that explained that strife. And this is DU, so... I keep having these stupid expectations.

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #108)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 06:35 PM

118. Short answer to your question is no.

However, the US is the developed country with the worst class mobility and a significant white underclass. That information is difficult to square with an analysis that focuses entirely on race.

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Response to Romulox (Reply #118)

Thu Apr 5, 2012, 08:48 PM

168. I'm from a working/lower class background. I received my A.B. from a "Public Ivy."

I walked into the Ivy professional school that had deigned to accept me for my first day of classes wearing flair leg men's jeans, some sort of tee shirt and a short shag haircut.

I found myself surrounded by a sea of pink oxford shirts, chinos and various types of slip on shoes without socks. The girls sometimes wore chino skirts or a skirt made of 4-square-inch swatches of madras put together like the top of the quilt. I think that LL Bean still offers these. And pink oxford button downs.

Right down the street was the J. Press men's clothing store that makes Brooks Brothers and Paul Stewart look like they came off French and Italian runways, respectively.

I'm from Michigan, and my favorite uncle worked on the line in G.M.'s Fisher Body plant in Grand Rapids, MI, and I tried to convince my friends that the death of manufacturing in the U.S. would destroy us as a country. I even mentioned WWII as a time when people learned the value of each other across social lines. A member of a MAJOR U.S. Democratic family attended at the time, and I knew the guy a little--he earned his way in, took his studies seriously and was a decent guy. But his reaction to me after one of my mini-speeches was to laugh a bit, say that I was cute and start calling me "the little populist," which spread like flies over the non-chemical fertilizer at my Grandmother's dairy farm.

Needless to say, I haven't made it in my career, although part of it has been the necessity to return to Michigan to help aging relatives, but part of it has been my own dumb mistakes, the first of which was marching off to Ivy league grad school.

Class does matter. It is possible, with help, to purchase camouflage clothing, particularly if you have a friend to say "yea or nay". Nonetheless, a lower, working or lower class person is painfully obvious to everyone else.

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Response to amandabeech (Reply #168)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 03:55 PM

190. Agree 100%

I know that being white, male, and straight have helped open doors for me, but I also know that coming from a very poor, working-class background has imposed quite a few limitations as well.

I was the first in my family to go to college and, especially during my undergraduate years, I was a huge fish out of water. It didn't help that I went to college during the Reagan years, as well.

This has spilled over into my career. The most blatant example was when I went on an interview for a job at a DC think tank, one with a progressive bent to it. The moment the person who was going to interview me saw me, I knew by how she looked at me when we first met that I wasn't going to get the job. I was dressed nicely, but I didn't have the proper "inside-the-beltway" professional attire that would have sent the right signals to her, or whatever. We went through an interview, but I felt she wasn't even listening to me and was just going through the motions.

I don't think I even heard from her again, not even a rejection letter, even though I followed up.

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Response to deutsey (Reply #190)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 10:34 PM

191. Believe me, I hear you.

DC is really, really snotty.

Makes me wonder how progressive the think tank really was!

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Response to Romulox (Reply #83)

Tue Apr 3, 2012, 10:37 AM

138. +1

 

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 12:55 PM

14. I call it the repuke kindergarden blocks theory...

They believe they have all the blocks and are hell bent on keeping them. And by just giving one or two away, they feel as if they are giving away the house.

Now the repukes white mails are being forced to share their blocks and they don't like it at all.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 12:57 PM

16. Excuse me now...

 

while I go sit in a corner and hang my head in shame/guilt.

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Response to -..__... (Reply #16)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 01:09 PM

19. You could do that

or you could be aware of the benefits of being a white male and defend those who do not have those privileges.

The latter might be a better course of action, but hanging your head in the corner is probably easier.

Bryant

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #19)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 01:11 PM

20. Not as easy as laughing at your response.

 

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Response to -..__... (Reply #20)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 02:56 PM

63. You're right - that is pretty easy. n/t

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Response to -..__... (Reply #16)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 02:27 PM

42. I imagine that a wee bit of reflection on the editorial in question

I imagine that a wee bit of reflection on the editorial in question would be somewhat more helpful and efficient.

Although I do realize that petulant melodrama may be rather more viscerally entertaining for the dogmatic.

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Response to -..__... (Reply #16)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 03:04 PM

69. Yeah, I'm a white male too..

I feel so ashamed...

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 12:58 PM

17. why so many white men like me can be found whining about how tough it is to be a white man:

Because for the first time in history, white men have to watch what they say and do around those who are either not white or not male. After generations of being able to be as racist and sexist as they want, and using it to boost their self-esteem, now they have to hide those sentiments behind closed doors, and they fucking hate it.

I say "they" even though I'm a white male, because I'm neither sexist nor racist

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Response to arcane1 (Reply #17)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 01:20 PM

22. +1!

There's a certain segment of the white straight male population that feels as though the rug has been pulled out from under them. They can't automatically expect dinner on the table when they get home. Nor can they pinch the behinds of the "girls" who work as their "secretaries" without repercussions. And don't get them started about "harmless" jokes they can no longer tell.

I'm amazed by how often I think back to a quote from the movie Falling Down, which did a surprisingly good job of expressing this white straight male sense of disorientation:

Sergeant Prendergast: Let's meet a couple of police officers. They are all good guys.
Bill Foster: I'm the bad guy?
Sergeant Prendergast: Yeah.
Bill Foster: How did that happen?

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Response to arcane1 (Reply #17)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 01:44 PM

28. i am sad to say, a lot of us women are helping these men out. letting them off the hook and feeling

sorry for their burden, telling them it is ok to embrace this language again..... and any other manner of pornifying us women.

so i guess just a handful of years of whining is paying off

as far as women go, anyway.

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Response to arcane1 (Reply #17)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 02:29 PM

45. Exactly right

They assume that being white and male makes them superior, and are freaking out because they aren't privileged by virtue of being a white male anymore. It scares them to death.

For folks that seem to present the macho argument of "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" they are remarkably cowardly when they are treated like everyone else that isn't white and male.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 01:34 PM

23. "by almost any metric... a pretty sweet deal to start out life as a white male"

So I cannot, for the life of me, understand why so many white men like me can be found whining about how tough it is to be a white man.


The attack, and the defense in two succinct sentences.

1) The metrics all agree with me, 2) If you disagree then you're just a whiner whose opinion can safely be discounted, which brings us back to 1).

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #23)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 02:33 PM

48. Don't even pretend that life as a white male

Isn't a sweet deal.

When you ARE part of the privileged class, it is far harder for you to understand your privilege. When you aren't, you see it clearly.

How many would choose to be female or a gay male if they could choose? How many would elect to be black? I'll answer: None, because they know they have it easy.

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Response to Aerows (Reply #48)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 02:51 PM

60. It's more complicated than that...

Not all white males are part of the privileged class. There are quite a few minorities and females that are much more part of the privileged class than white males.

And it's incredibly insulting when someone else tells a person how they should feel about their life as a white male. Their feelings take precedence over your assumptions. You assuming their life is sweet only because they are white and a male is pretty staggeringly insulting and ignores the incredibly huge amount of other factors that go into making "life sweet".

No doubt, all other things being equal, being white and male has the most advantages in most situations. Then again, let's drop white males out of it, but leave all other categories in. You'll find that being a white female helps in a lot of ways as well. Or being Asian. Indeed, all classifications have privileges of sorts, some much more than others obviously, and in different ways.

White males who aren't part of the privileged class see it clearly. The issue is that many are brainwashed by the right to blame these disadvantages on the others demanding equality of opportunity. But don't deny them the fact that they are at a disadvantage. They are. Get them to understand what is going on, that's the hard part. And unfortunately, your sort of rhetoric tends to do the opposite.

You ignore so many other factors besides race/gender, like class, that it makes your broad generalizations unconvincing and your assumptions insulting.

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Response to MellowDem (Reply #60)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 02:57 PM

64. It depends on where you are

In the South, there is still a lot of prejudice against "uppity women". That is, women who don't defer to men.

I have no idea where you live, but I can tell you that I recognize it in the South.

Your assumptions that my experience is to be overlooked is unconvincing and just as insulting.

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Response to Aerows (Reply #64)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 03:08 PM

72. I think privilege depends on a ton of factors...

which was my point really. And I was just trying to show that if a white male says he's got it hard, telling him he has it sweet just because he is a white and a male will indeed be insulting to him. Maybe he has it better than a black male in the exact same circumstances, but that doesn't mean it's sweet.

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Response to Aerows (Reply #64)

Tue Apr 3, 2012, 11:27 AM

144. It's still class-based

A rich woman in the south can be as uppity as she wants.

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Response to MellowDem (Reply #60)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 03:32 PM

82. Being white is, in aggregate, an advantage. Being male is not.

The issues are separable, but it is inconvenient to the cause to separate them. Thus, the problems faced by african americans are caused by white men, not whites. So more white women are sent to college to mitigate the problems faced by AA males.

But pointing out that she's insulting isn't a deterrent. That was her intent.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #82)

Tue Apr 3, 2012, 10:44 AM

139. White women are *sent* to college? By whom?

 

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #139)

Tue Apr 3, 2012, 12:04 PM

147. By a ratio of 3:2, women are sent by society. Specificially, the women's educational equity program.

This is the definition of institutional sexism. Go ERA.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #147)

Tue Apr 3, 2012, 12:28 PM

149. No, it's not the definition of institutional sexism. When something is institutionalized it means

 

there are formal and informal *institutional practices* that hold the situation in place. If you think there are, please describe them.

Since women have only been a majority on college campuses for about 25 years, I doubt that there are such institutionalized practices.


"A quarter-century after women became the majority on college campuses, men are trailing them in more than just enrollment.

Department of Education statistics show that men, whatever their race or socioeconomic group, are less likely than women to get bachelor's degrees — and among those who do, fewer complete their degrees in four or five years. Men also get worse grades than women.

And in two national studies, college men reported that they studied less and socialized more than their female classmates.

Small wonder, then, that at elite institutions like Harvard, small liberal arts colleges like Dickinson, huge public universities like the University of Wisconsin and U.C.L.A. and smaller ones like Florida Atlantic University, women are walking off with a disproportionate share of the honors degrees.

It is not that men are in a downward spiral: they are going to college in greater numbers and are more likely to graduate than two decades ago.

Still, men now make up only 42 percent of the nation's college students. And with sex discrimination fading and their job opportunities widening, women are coming on much stronger, often leapfrogging the men to the academic finish.

"The boys are about where they were 30 years ago, but the girls are just on a tear, doing much, much better," said Tom Mortenson, a senior scholar at the Pell Institute for the Study of Opportunity in Higher Education in Washington."

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/09/education/09college.html?pagewanted=all

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #149)

Tue Apr 3, 2012, 04:22 PM

162. Sure it is. Laws dictating preferential treatment by gender is institutional sexism.

Particularly when that gender already dominates the field in question. It is exactly as institutionally sexist as a "mens lawmaker equity program" which gives campaign contributions to male legislative candidates... and for exactly the same reasons.

Due to the fact that 92% of primary school teachers are women, boys get the message from an early age that education isn't meant for them. Boys are doing poorly compared not only compared to their sisters, but also compared to their fathers and grandfathers - who had the benefit of some male teachers.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #162)

Thu Apr 5, 2012, 04:59 PM

164. Is teaching majority female because of affirmative action? Doubtful.

 

To the extent that women are still benefiting from affirmative action in university acceptance even though they're now a majority in those universities, I would tend to accept your position. I haven't looked into the stats enough to know how much that's the case.

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #164)

Thu Apr 5, 2012, 07:20 PM

165. It is a self-reinforcing cycle.

Primary schools only effectively teach girls. Those girls, raised on an academic diet of the conflicting messages of "girl power", "boys are stupid - throw rocks at them" AND "reject the patriarchy" (or in the words of an acquaintance's college freshman daughter "why would anyone want a man math teacher?") go on to dominate the system which produces all the teachers.

I've concluded that cultural gender stereotypes are such that there's no degree of disproportionality which will actually cognitively register. Both parties have too much invested in denial.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #165)

Thu Apr 5, 2012, 07:23 PM

166. When boys were more likely to go to college in the 40s & 50s, most primary teachers were

 

female as well.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #162)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 08:01 AM

184. They are probably doing "poorly" due to their own efforts.

Sorry, but boys didn't do better in the good old days when there were more male teachers. Is the feminine influence THAT bad for boys?

Thing is, most women to get "ahead" (but still be paid way less than some men who dropped out of school early) need to get that extra education (post-secondary). It's downright pathetic how much education a woman needs to advance herself, and still, in terms of hiring they will take the man with the incomplete educational history.

Plus, women don't have the luxury of the "good old boys" networks.

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Response to Darth_Kitten (Reply #184)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 11:18 AM

185. I would think it impossible to reconcile these two views:

a) Men in the workplace have an unfair advantage. The fact that few women are in congress or boardrooms is proof of pervasive oppression.
b) Male schoolchildren fail only because they don't have the work ethic to succeed. Little 11 year old Timmy, who has probably never experienced a male teacher in his life, has only himself to blame.

If male children are fully and individually responsible for their own outcomes, why aren't adult women?

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Response to Aerows (Reply #48)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 02:53 PM

62. Class, in the economic sense, is just as big a deal

when you get to graduate and professional schools and positions. I went to law school at the most famous institution of its kind. I won't bother repeating my earlier posts at Nos. 7 and 15. I am a white male and I have had to scratch, bite and claw to make any sort of living despite my education. I occasionally ate food out of dumpsters during the 3.5 years that I was unemployed. Color is NOT everything, especially at the higher professional levels.

In virtually every professional environment I have been in that was in the private sector, those with the most privileged socioeconomic backgrounds have risen furthest and fastest regardless of their race (edited to add) or gender.

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Response to hifiguy (Reply #62)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 02:59 PM

66. No arguments there

Those with the most privileged socioeconomic backgrounds do rise the fastest and the furthest, I agree with you, but when the playing field is leveled, white men have an advantage over other groups.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #23)

Wed Mar 28, 2012, 01:27 PM

128. How, in any stretch of the imagination, could someone whine 'how tough white men have it?

If someone is whining about how tough it is to be a white male, they're either living in a bubble, or are a world-class whiner that isn't happy with the privilege they currently have, and want even more (usually at the expense of someone else).

That's why I find the concept of a "men's rights organization" to be so tool-ish.

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Response to chrisa (Reply #128)

Wed Mar 28, 2012, 03:59 PM

130. Men should be the first in line to push the equal rights amendment.

The only practical effects the law would have is to make life easier for them.

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Response to chrisa (Reply #128)

Tue Apr 3, 2012, 11:50 AM

146. Because poor white men do have it tough.

They don't have it tougher than poor non-whites or poor women. But they do have it tougher than rich (insert any race and either gender here).

Class privilege is infinitely stronger than race and gender privilege.

Beating up whitey in the trailer park for feeling like he's having a tough time isn't gonna do anything to help. He's going to be casting about for the reason he's having a hard life. And the wealthy stoke his racial animosity to maintain their power. It would be better for us to stoke class-based animosity instead - it has a chance of actually improving his harder-than-necessary life while also improving the harder-than-necessary lives of non-whites and women.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 01:38 PM

25. My problem with this kind of analysis...

is how overly simplified and broad it usually is, and how it alienates a lot of potential allies.

White males, as a whole, have the most privilege of any racial/sex combo in the US. But that's quite a specific claim. Not to mention, on an individual level, how much that privilege helps a person varies extraordinarily.

For many white males, their privileges they recieve from being white and male are outweighed by many disadvantages of class.

I'm all for making people understand the privileges they have in life. Very few people aknowledge them. But everyone has privileges, and to focus on just "white males" not only alienates such from considering their privileges when they can see many things working against them, but also ignores the many other types of privilege which are incredibly, if not much more relevant and powerful nowadays.

I see far more posts about white male privilege than class privilege, and class privilege has an incredible amount of power in the US, much more so than race or sex does anymore, on a general level.

For example, for the author to say that being a white male automatically makes it like "T-ball" is a staggeringly ignorant quote. The amount of privilege he has to say that is astounding. It's just a different sort of privilege he is unknowingly invoking, and in an article that's supposed to be about privilege at that. This type of argumentation is the worst sort.

The thing is, the article makes relevant points about privilege and especially the right's attitude, it just also makes several horrible points and does so in the worst possible way. If you want to convince white males on the right that people have privileges and to examine them, this is not the way to do it.

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Response to MellowDem (Reply #25)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 01:52 PM

31. I'm guessing that the author of ths piece knows a lot of successful white guys

and he's lazily extrapolating this to *every* white guy.

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Response to MellowDem (Reply #25)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 01:52 PM

32. It's "blame the white guys tourettes".

"Senator Chuck Grassley is an asshole? It's 'cuz he's a white guy. Deeper analysis is hard and anyone who calls that analysis lazy, is a whiner."

"Clarence Thomas? Michael Steele? Michelle Malkin? Ann Coulter? They're assholes because they're wannabe white guys."

And you're right with your last sentence. It isn't about getting anyone to examine their privileges, it's about poking them with a stick.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 01:45 PM

29. I'm a white male and I don't deny I have privilege in this country...

...I'm reminded of that when I recount the number of times I've received preferential treatment from the police.

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #29)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 02:38 PM

50. You are better than many in this thread then

That refuse to admit that they do receive preferential treatment. The people that rush to discard the idea that being white, male and straight does confer an advantage tend to be people for whom that advantage hasn't paid off, for whatever reason. There are far too many non-straight, non-white and non-male individuals with exceptional talents that have been hindered by their race, non-straightness and gender.

Those that don't believe it should open their eyes and ask why white males are overwhelmingly in positions of power. Look at the Senate. Look at the House of Representatives. Look at CEOs. It is remarkable when on ISN'T a white male. That isn't because white males are inherently "better" people, it's because they have an advantage.

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Response to Aerows (Reply #50)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 02:50 PM

58. The impression I get...

...is that most of those people live very sheltered life and don't understand the extent to which minorities are allowed to be marginalized by uncaring educational, economic, and judicial systems that create generational gaps that transcend class. I think predominantly they have spent most of their life in majority white rural/ex-burb/suburban areas and don't understand how the other 70% that do come into contact with systemic bigotry feel about this issue.

I mean, it ain't hard to tell...these people don't do the math and the result is a very juvenile understanding of both race and history...

It must be remembered that the white group of laborers, while they received a low wage, were compensated in part by a sort of public and psychological wage. They were given public deference and titles of courtesy because they were white. They were admitted freely with all classes of white people to public functions, public parks, and the best schools. The police were drawn from their ranks, and the courts, dependent on their votes, treated them with such leniency as to encourage lawlessness. Their vote selected public officials, and while this had small effect upon the economic situation, it had great effect upon their personal treatment and the deference shown them. White schoolhouses were the best in the community, and conspicuously placed, and they cost anywhere from twice to ten times as much per capita as the colored schools. The newspapers specialized on news that flattered the poor whites and almost utterly ignored the Negro except in crime and ridicule.

- W. E. B. Du Bois, Black Reconstruction in America, 1860–1880 (New York: Free Press, 1995 reissue of 1935 original), pp. 700–701

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_privilege#History

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 01:49 PM

30. All white men are "guaranteed to get on base"?

Tell that to a poor white guy in Mississippi working three jobs to feed his family.

I guess such a white guy simply cannot comprehend the horror of being Halle Berry.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #30)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 02:41 PM

51. Ask everyone of them

If they would choose to be a black woman. Don't tell them who they will be choosing to be, just ask them "would you rather be a black woman?"

I'll give you a dollar for every single one that says, "Yes, I'd rather be a black woman than a white male."

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Response to Aerows (Reply #51)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 03:01 PM

68. Ask them if they'd rather be rich than poor...

I can bet what they would say to that as well.

Point is, there isn't just one privilege.

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Response to MellowDem (Reply #68)

Tue Apr 3, 2012, 04:03 PM

161. Of course there isn't just one privilege

The privilege of being an American over someone in a poor country but even someone in a poor country can strike it rich which doesn't deny the privileges afforded to being an American over someone in a poor country.

This is the only privilege that is denied existed while people of course don't deny other privileges that exist.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 01:54 PM

33. As An African American Male, I Don't Think That All White Men Have It Easy in America

But they do have the home field advantage.

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Response to Yavin4 (Reply #33)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 02:05 PM

35. It's more a class issue than a race issue.

A child of two black attorneys born on the Upper East Side has a huge advantage over a white kid born to a single mother in a meth-riddled trailer park.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #35)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 02:27 PM

43. That's because even white women are at a big disadvantage to most males

unless they are born with good looks and enough talent or brains to rise above the average.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #43)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 02:41 PM

52. Bingo

This is the other part of the story that gets overlooked.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #43)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 04:50 PM

106. Measured how?

Unemployment? Suicide? Education? Homicide? Violent victimization? Workplace fatalities? Incarceration? Wealth control?

When pressed, the best argument I hear is "look at Congress!" as if that is relevant to anyone's day to day life, and as if both my senators as well as my governor were not women.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #106)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 05:52 PM

113. You have to ask?

Look at statistics, women still make less money than men for the same level of education and job responsibility. They have to pay more for health insurance just because they are women. Yes, and do look at Congress. Why does half the population have only a minority of representation? Half of Congress should be female. Not only that look at the Boards of Directors of most big companies. In many, the only woman there is the secretary that is recording the minutes.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #113)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 06:37 PM

120. a) People don't get paid for "their level of education". They get paid for what they do.

b) Why are most congresspeople men? Because voters, 54% of whom are women, elected them to those positions. If you want to be elected, you have to file for office. Failing that, you have to select among those who did.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #120)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 06:44 PM

121. Really? I would love for a woman to run against my

Republican dick head of a Congressman and I would vote for her in a nano-second. The fact is that women have a hard time getting the cash support from the big donors they need so they don't even make it onto the ballot so there isn't a big chance to vote for them. The same goes for my Assemblyman and State Senator. Fortunately, California does have two women senators we keep in office and I'm sure it's we women who do it.

As for getting paid for what we do, I have always worked more and harder than the men I worked for, often doing their work as well, so I could do mine. I had better language and other skills as well. So don't tell me women don't work hard.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #35)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 02:45 PM

56. Unless that Black Kid from the two Black Attorney Parents Is Wearing A Hoodie

in Sanford Florida.

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Response to Yavin4 (Reply #33)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 02:13 PM

38. I agree...

All other things being equal, white males will usually have an advantage over any other race/sex combo to varying degrees in most situations.

It's all those "other things" that many on the right notice right away though, which also impact their lives. They see it. And they use it as an excuse as to why being white and male isn't a thing, because "shit happens" is their mantra. What's sad is that the right has gotten so many to believe that the US is really a land of equal opportunity and a perfect meritocracy. Therefore, white men on the right refuse to stand up for themselves on the "other things" because to do so would be to admit they are somehow lazy or worse. Nevermind that standing up on those issues would mean standing with other races/genders. So they think other races or women are asking for special privileges and rights themselves. And they vote against their best interests.

It's a rather cruel use of humans the right has formulated, and their ideology makes me shudder.

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Response to Yavin4 (Reply #33)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 02:14 PM

39. Being white is a clear advantage.

Being male? Not.

You're 6x as likely to go to prison than a white person. You're 11x more likely to go to prison than a woman.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #39)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 02:43 PM

54. And you are 11X more likely to be more wealthy

and advantaged than a woman as a male. We all make our own choices. Choosing to be a criminal is quite different than being able to get ahead by virtue of the fact that the good ol' boys club is on your side.

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Response to Aerows (Reply #54)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 03:36 PM

84. Gibberish.

Are you saying that blacks choose to be criminals?

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #84)

Thu Apr 5, 2012, 08:01 PM

167. Are you saying that women commit violent crimes at the same rates as men

and the police force and judicial system (both famous bastions of feminism) simply choose to send men to jail more often than women?

It's a vast conspiracy of female cops (15% of the force) and judges (a whopping 20% of all judges) to hide evidence and reduce sentences for female criminals?

Because I can't think of any other more plausible reason why there would be eleven times more men in jail than women...

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 02:28 PM

44. K&R. It's sad more people won't recognize the reality of white privilege.

Or male privilege.

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Response to BlueIris (Reply #44)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 03:40 PM

88. Amen

 

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 02:31 PM

47. Difficult to argue against the editorial as the instances of getting...

Difficult to argue against the editorial as the instances of getting pulled over for Driving When White are so few as to be aberrations... as is a male getting sexually harassed at work.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 02:34 PM

49. I got a $271 speeding ticket the other day..

too bad my "white male privilege" didn't kick in..

Of course, if I had been a woman, there would have been a much better chance of me talking the cop out of the citation.

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Response to Upton (Reply #49)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 03:06 PM

71. You can afford to pay it right...

Do you think your average black kid from Oakland can afford to pay that with ease more or less than the average white kid from Marin?

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #71)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 03:16 PM

77. That's not my point..

while I would agree that for the most part minorities have it tougher in this country, I wouldn't put white women in that class. For they have just as much privilege as white males..it just presents itself in different ways...

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Response to Upton (Reply #77)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 03:27 PM

81. That is the point...

...do you understand the wage gap? Women still make less then men on average, they are often expected to abandon careers and bear/raise children. If you don't understand that patriarchy still exists in this country you need to get out of the San Francisco mindset and understand that much of the country is still mired in the past. It might not be quite as glaring, but it is still very much part of the social reality.

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #81)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 03:38 PM

85. I don't live in the Bay Area anymore...

moved to SW Washington...much, much, much cheaper, I pay virtually nothing in property taxes, less of a nanny state too.

Talking about being "mired in the past"...that "patriarchy" argument, is getting old, real old. The inequities in this country are much more about color and class, than gender..

And white men are only in power because white women helped put them there..



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Response to Upton (Reply #85)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 03:48 PM

93. You really don't get it...

Did you sleep through the latest battle in the Republican War on Women?

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #81)

Tue Apr 3, 2012, 11:33 AM

145. White women are more likely to be unemployed than black women. Is that because they

 

"are expected" to abandon their careers to bear children, or because they have the privilege of doing so because they have partners who make enough/are willing to support them while they raise children and jobs that allow maternity leave, sabbaticals, or other arrangements that let them take off big chunks of time?

"Blacks are the only racial or ethnic group for whom women represent a larger share of the employed than do men - more than half (53.8 percent) of employed Blacks in 2011 were women, compared to 46.0 percent among employed Whites."

http://www.dol.gov/_sec/media/reports/blacklaborforce/

Among my female friends and acquaintances, most of whom are professionals, it's certainly the case that they were not "expected" to take time off to raise their children, they actively desired to do so. Most went back to work reluctantly, especially if their children were young.




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Response to Upton (Reply #49)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 04:19 PM

100. I imagine the odds are greater that, all other being equal...

I imagine the odds are greater that, all other being equal, you being a black male, the situation may not have turned out with merely a citation.


(Try not speeding next time, we white guys don't get pulled over for doing the speed limit... )

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Response to Upton (Reply #49)

Tue Apr 3, 2012, 10:54 AM

141. Interesting. The last time I got pulled over by a cop,

it was a woman. I'm a white man. I had, in a fit of mindlessness, treated a red light as a four-way stop sign. I was thinking about what was on the shopping list I had left at home.

So, I pulled over and the cop came up to my car. I didn't talk my way out of the ticket. Instead, I immediately copped to the offence and explained what had happened, just as I did above in this post. The cop ran my license and plates, then came back and told me to keep my mind on my driving and not on a forgotten shopping list. Then she left.

I wonder if I'd have gotten the same warning and no ticket if I had been a young black man. I doubt it very much. That is white male privilege.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 02:42 PM

53. For most guys, privilege does not compute.

Last edited Tue Mar 27, 2012, 03:20 PM - Edit history (1)

If you grow up with it in your environment, it's not something you'll notice unless it's absent, similar to what would happen if you got up one day and birds didn't sing anymore.

If you have an accomplish life, the fact of privilege helping you at every step is an embarrassment, and pointing it out is an insult.

If you're life is not so fortunate, you can't see yourself as privileged in any way, and you fear losing the little advantage you have, no matter how fair or unfair.

And most men are too suspicious either way to believe it when they hear it.

How can Repubs pry away at the Violence Against Women Act and maintain that they're not at war with women? Why do certain moral objections, religious or not, just seem to align that way?





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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 02:53 PM

61. Minorities may be at a disadvantage, but one bright side could be that

our disadvantages would make success that much more enjoyable.

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Response to Jamaal510 (Reply #61)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 03:43 PM

90. But, If you don't have a job and you're not rich, blame yourself

Remember "Don't blame Wall Street, Don't blame the big banks. If you don't have a job and you're not rich, blame yourself"

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 02:58 PM

65. I do not appreciate being marginalized

Sorry but I respect other people regardless of gender, race, religion, sexual orientation, hairstyle, heritage, accent, shape, fashion, nose size, how good their teeth are, where their parents went to college, etc., and expect the same treatment. I do not respect articles written to devalue anyone, even if statistics say the group, as a whole, are doing better according to certain metrics. That's no excuse. I have a total of 90 minutes of my own time every day and work every minute of the remainder just to keep a roof over my head, which is not the result of any privilege, but a never-ending struggle for survival. If there are some assholes out there, do not blame it on skin or body parts, but on their lack of character. What if the word "White" had been replaced with "Jewish". How well would this article be received? I support bills that deal with fairness toward any group, and I have nothing against acknowledging demographics and embracing their individuality, but there is no place for hate, even if it is to convey a "point." There are a lot of assholes out there, don't get me wrong, I totally understand that, and if you want to look toward white men, point out there are more white men making laws, that's fine, but it should be made clear that the real problem is lack of sophisticated character.

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Response to DaveJ (Reply #65)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 03:05 PM

70. White male privilege is real...

imagine you have the same situation, but you're a black woman. Probably would make things harder. Maybe not in every conceivable situation, but in most situtations.

Of course, there is more to it than just being white or male though. And I think the OP's article generally misses the boat on this and even hurts the point it is trying to make in some ways.

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Response to DaveJ (Reply #65)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 03:12 PM

76. It's kind of a pity that what you refer to as "Sophisticated Character"

is a combination of common sense ways to act decently with a hefty helping of the preferences and prejudices of White Upper Class Males.

Bryant

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 03:10 PM

74. I find that the white guys with the self esteem issue mentioned in the OP, are those

who are often not as successful as they think they ought to be.

I'm a white guy in my 40s and I'm pretty successful. And I'm still good friends with a bunch of white guys from high school.

Those who are the most upset about minorities are those who think they should be more successful than they actually are. They look at their own situation and think it should be better, but they don't think that they might actually be the problem that holds them back.

As an example, one of these guys constantly misses work for no real reason. Then gets fired. The company hired a black guy to replace him, and BOOM, he concludes "minorities get all the breaks".

He's looking everywhere for where his problem originates, but he can't see the problem staring back at him in the mirror.

I'm not saying this is always the reality ... but I do think this is some of it.

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Response to JoePhilly (Reply #74)

Tue Apr 3, 2012, 11:02 AM

143. Half of white men working full-time in 2007 made less than $50K. Are you saying that if they just

 

had a better attitude they'd all make more?

Everyone can be "successful" if they just get an attitude adjustment?

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #143)

Tue Apr 3, 2012, 02:21 PM

155. Don't think I said that at all .... but nice try.

I'll give you a few examples from the group of guys I refer to. Again, we are all about the same age.

Guy #1) He's a sprinkler fitter. He has 4 kids. One is mildly autistic. His wife does not work. He might make 50k a year. He's happy with his life although it is hard, particularly with the autistic child. Still, he does not see himself as less successful than he should be. He also does not blame minorities for his financial troubles.

Guy #2) He started out moving furniture for some small company. Then he decided that he could start his own company doing the same thing. He buys a truck. He and another guy start setting up jobs, seems to be doing ok. Then the economy crashed. He can't find jobs, can't get loans. Sells the truck and goes to work for some one else again. But he's pissed off. He hates the hours (he worked less when he ran the business) ... he's always late. He gets fired. And when they hire a black guy later to replace him, he blames the black guy. He also blames minorities for the economic collapse, they got all the breaks, he got screwed. At least that's how he sees it.

Guy #3) He's never been able to hold down a job. Works for a while, gets fired, goes on unemployment. Divorced once, has child there. Also has child with a girlfriend. Can't pay child support. Signs up for every government hand out he can get. Sees himself as deserving of government help because he isn't really like the minorities who get the same support. Its also their fault that he didn't go to college.

The point is not having a better attitude. The point is knowing who to blame for your problems. And these guys who think they should be more successful than they are don't hold themselves accountable. Its easier to watch fox news and then blame the minorities.

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Response to JoePhilly (Reply #155)

Tue Apr 3, 2012, 02:25 PM

156. Thanks for the anecdotes, but the fact is that half of white men make less than $50K, and in the

 

Last edited Tue Apr 3, 2012, 03:14 PM - Edit history (1)

big picture it has nothing to do with their attitudes or personal habits, it has to do with the fact that in a stratified society, the majority will be substantially less well-off than the minority of the supposed "deserving" "successful".


Edit to change the second "majority" to "minority"

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #156)

Tue Apr 3, 2012, 03:19 PM

157. And?

As you correctly noted earlier, one can make less than 50k a year and still not see themselves as less successful than they think they should be.

So the question is not that 50% of white men make less than 50k a year, and they all think they should be more successful than they are. I have another friend who is a social worker. He makes less than 50k, he does not see himself as less successful than he should be.

My comment was about white men, regardless of their income, who think they should be more successful than they are, and who also blame minorities for that situation. I know and have met plenty of them.

The GOP uses this btw ... this is why Santorum said "I don't want to make black people's lives better by giving them other people's money." Of course after, he claimed he said "Blah" people.

But look at his actual statement ... who do you think the "other people" are? Santorum is talking to white people who feel that the government is taking from them, and giving to black people.

Santorum is speaking to the group I refer to.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 03:10 PM

75. Some white men apparently disagree, and seem to believe that they are an oppressed

people...


...so they legislate or attempt to legislate in order to to assert their control over women and women's rights and bodies...
?w=500&h=342
?w=500

WASHINGTON (FinalCall.com) - While the 2010 midterm elections have been dissected in every imaginable way to reflect poorly on President Barack Obama, there is one startling reality that has been largely overlooked. According to national exit polls for House races, broken down by race and gender, the Republican blowout was a phenomenon only among White voters. Blacks, Latinos and “all other races” went Democratic.

“Specifically, 63 percent of White men voted Republican as did 58 percent of White women,” Richard Prince reported in his online column “Journal-isms.” “Eighty-five percent of Black men voted Democratic, as did 93 percent of Black women, 60 percent of Latino men, 68 percent of Latino women and 55 percent of ‘all other races.' ”

There is an historical precedent explaining why White voters in some of the most distressed areas of the country—those out of work and facing home foreclosures, for example—identified with and voted for wealthy White conservatives, some of whom spent millions of dollars of their own money to convince voters that they better represent the best interests of the poor.

Until 1968 when Republican Richard Nixon took power utilizing his “Southern Strategy,” Christian, segregationist, White Democrats—so-called “Dixiecrats”—ruled the South convincing White voters (who were the only eligible voters until the late 1960s) of six myths. “1. the federal government's a threat; 2. Federal courts don't understand the Constitution; 3. Taxes are bad; 4. Unions need to be eliminated; 5. You have a lousy health system; 6. But at least you're White,” this according to Craig Wilson of Harvard University's Kennedy School of Government.

http://www.finalcall.com/artman/publish/National_News_2/article_7427.shtml

In his fine book The Neglected Voter: White Men and the Democratic Dilemma, David Paul Kuhn took a hard look at the future of the Democratic party, and it's not good news. Since 1972, white men have voted by well over 60% for Republican or conservative candidates in every single presidential race. The only exceptions were Jimmy Carter, who got 48% of the white male vote, and Barack Obama, who got 41% of white men.

http://www.thedemocraticstrategist.org/strategist/2010/03/the_elusive_white_male_voter.php

...but even though it is true that white men rule, and are the dominant group in our society, many of them really do get it, and they want to make it all as good as they can...



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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 03:25 PM

80. I suspect the author has never been married

 

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #80)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 03:40 PM

87. "Stoop to conquer" is still stooping nt

 

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #80)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 03:44 PM

91. Actually that does touch on a real phenomenon

 

For much of history, men have dominated public life and still do to a large degree. Women have sometimes ruled, but in most places over the centuries, it has been men. Men have also dominated many professions, particularly the prestigious ones. Women didn't get the right to vote anywhere until the second half of the 19th century, and the first women MPs weren't sat until the early 20th century.

But private life has always been a different story. The power of women in private life has always outstripped their power in public life. It hasn't always bee equal there either, but I think it's generally been much more favorable to women than public life has.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 03:39 PM

86. DAYUM! That's a keeper!!!

 

Tackles Male and White privilege perfectly!

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Response to Taverner (Reply #86)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 03:42 PM

89. As a white male...

I can tell you it makes some valid points, and some invalid points.

Hardly tackles it perfectly. Seems to do more harm than good really.

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Response to MellowDem (Reply #89)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 03:45 PM

92. As someone who is also a white male, I think its spot on

 

What, specifically, do you find untrue?

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Response to Taverner (Reply #92)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 03:55 PM

94. Saying that being a white male...

is like playing T-ball and insures you'll get on base. That's not true in all situations.

It seems to ignore all the other privileges out there, of which there are many, that can have even greater impacts on a persons life than their race and gender.

I agree with the point that being a white male, all other things being equal, will generally be the race/gender combo to get you the most advantages.

But how much advantage each individual derives from such privileges vary widely, and certainly don't alone insure that you'll do well.
Many white males are disadvantaged in other ways, and telling them they are privileged in this way seems the least effective means of getting them to see their privilege. And not acknowledging that white males can have less privilege in other ways is a great way to not get them to become allies.

The thing is, many white males aren't part of the privileged class. And the sooner they see that, the better. The sooner they understand how privilege works against them, the sooner they'll be willing to admit the privileges they do have afforded to them.

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Response to MellowDem (Reply #94)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 03:56 PM

95. Sure, white male privege doesn't work EVERY time, but it works enough to make a difference

 

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Response to Taverner (Reply #95)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 04:02 PM

96. No doubt...

but so do all other sorts of privilege that the article neglected to mention.

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Response to MellowDem (Reply #96)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 04:15 PM

98. Um, you're comparing apples to oranges

 

All of the other kinds of privilege PALE in comparison to the many real, tangible, and very noticeable privileges you get by being White and Male

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Response to Taverner (Reply #98)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 07:33 PM

122. Not at all...

class privilege trumps all in many cases. Many white males get very little privilege from being white or male depending on location etc. etc.

Class privilege pervades everywhere and has the most real, tangible, and very noticeable privileges.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 04:08 PM

97. Seems more accurate to say that Straight, White, Christian, Upperclass Males rule.

Those are the Brahmins in American society.

I havent found a definition of priviledge that I like.

To my way of thinking, gay males, African american males and white women do not have priviledge. It does no good to say a middle class gay male has male priviledge because of all of the descrimination a gay person receives in our society. Ditto with African American males. I also think it does no good to say a white woman has white priviledge.

I guess if I were trying to define a meaning of priviledge I would like, there would be a figure of 0 to 10 with 0 being worst negative priviledge (untouchables to extend the caste analogy), 10 being most priviledged and 5 being no priviledge (what would be priviledge benefits are cancelled out by negative priviledges).

negative priviledge no priviledge priviledged
0 ---------------------------5------------------------10

An LGBT, Black, Atheist, Poor woman would probably get a 0 and what I noted in the title would get a 10. Being LGBT automatically deducts 3 points, being African American deducts 2 points, Going from upperclass to middle class deducts 3 points and going from middle class to lower class deducts 1 point. So in my system a Poor Straight White Christian male would rate a 6, or barely priviledged. Being a woman deducts 2 points.

Class is the biggest determinant of priviledge IMHO. You cannot have any significant amount of priviledge if you are poor. You have potential priviledge, but that's it.

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #97)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 04:19 PM

99. Nope - even poor, undereducated whites get privleges minorities don't

 

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Response to Taverner (Reply #99)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 04:20 PM

101. I disagree.

There is no way a poor uneducated white male has the standing of a wealthy African American male.

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #101)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 04:33 PM

103. Are we trying to get a taxi in NYC?

 

You are aware of the Danny Glover NYC Taxi experiment aren't you?

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Response to Taverner (Reply #103)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 05:11 PM

109. Yes I am. You are aware that a poor person cannot even afford a taxi, right? nt

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #109)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 05:12 PM

110. Doesn't matter

 

Seriously, if you want to debate this, I would take it up with someone who has a bit more experience (that is non white and non male.) We white people are often oblivious to the privilege.

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Response to Taverner (Reply #110)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 05:14 PM

111. I'm not white. nt

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #101)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 04:39 PM

104. You are correct sir.

I am a white man in my early fifties.

My best friend in law school (the one in Cambridge MA - I graduated in the same class as Michelle Obama) was African-American. He was raised in very posh surroundings, attended private schools until college, spoke four languages fluently and is movie-star handsome.

He once told me, when we were in school, that I would have a much harder time in the professional world than he was because even though he was a black man, everything else about him veritably screamed "I am part of the upper crust" whereas everything about me screamed "working class oddball" who just happened to be intellectually gifted. Clearly, he observed, the decision makers would pick up on that in two seconds where it would not redound to my benefit. He was right. Brother, was he ever.

Most of the last 20+ years I have made a subsistence level wage or somewhat higher. The average income for my classmates in private practice is somewhere in the mid six figures and my best friend from law school makes $3-4M per year. A few years ago I was scrounging dumpsters (literally) looking for food.

My working class background together with what I much later discovered to be my Asperger's characteristics kept me from ever getting anywhere in my chosen profession.

In the first interview I ever had with a law firm (for a summer clerkship after first year) I was asked point blank whether my friends were mainly people I knew before I went to college or people I met in college. I was, shall we say, gobsmacked. I didn't get the job offer either.

No how matter how people try to fractionalize Marx, one thing remains true and that is that economic class trumps everything, and The Rock means EVERYTHING, else and that is Marx's eternal truth.

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Response to hifiguy (Reply #104)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 04:52 PM

107. My dad was a white Medical doctor

He was a specialist who made more than half a mill a year. But 8 kids meant I wasnt spoiled-just ignored.
I was smarter than my dad as I often corrected him on scientific and health matters etc. But my aspergers meant I had to pursue my own path which took a long time. Corporate / medical / everything was out because of my very poor social/communication skills. I'm finally now making a little more than average income but it has been a long struggle.

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #101)

Tue Apr 3, 2012, 10:35 AM

137. Not in the area of wealth

There are many other facets of society where being a poor uneducated white man will trump being an educated wealthy black man, however.

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Response to Taverner (Reply #99)

Wed Mar 28, 2012, 12:21 PM

124. Thanks for posting that. nt

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Response to Taverner (Reply #99)

Tue Apr 3, 2012, 10:27 AM

136. Thanks for that vid.

n/t

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 04:28 PM

102. But White men have highest suicide rate

So privilege comes with "no excuses for failure" problem. As Herman Cain says, "If you not rich, Blame yoself"

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Response to ErikJ (Reply #102)

Tue Mar 27, 2012, 05:57 PM

114. Fuck Herman Cain. n/t

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2012, 12:36 PM

125. Try sellin' this shit to white men in most parts of Appalachia*

eom

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2012, 01:18 PM

126. lol At "men's rights" groups. What a load of crap.

I think "men's rights" groups should be renamed to "I hate women" groups. I wonder if they hang a sign on the door that says "NO GIRLZ ALOWED" written in crayon?

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Response to chrisa (Reply #126)

Wed Mar 28, 2012, 01:23 PM

127. I hope you saw the recent SPLC reports on those groups.

Applause-inducing stuff.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #127)

Wed Mar 28, 2012, 01:31 PM

129. I'll just imagine. I think I already know.

The words "Woman-hating tools" come to mind.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)


Response to redqueen (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2012, 06:21 PM

132. This is exactly what drives white working-class men away from the Democratic party

In other words, If a white male in this society fails to achieve success, it's because he is either lazy or a complete buffoon. Or, in even grittier terms.... White men aren't deserving of what they have achieved. After all, white men have it easy compared to everyone else, right? We should feel shame and guilt that we're not even poorer than we already are because so many others are more deserving and strive so much harder....

It sometimes seems as if the "base" of the democratic party seems to say anything in its power to drive middle-class white males into political apathy....and then somehow acts shocked when they see white men shifting allegiances to the republicans. It's not (always) because white men are bigoted blowhards that they vote republican (although that's sometimes the case). Often, it's simply because of the way that many democrats go out of their way to demonize, shame, and belittle them.

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Response to eek MD (Reply #132)

Wed Mar 28, 2012, 06:26 PM

133. Only certain types of white men. I wonder what drives this kind of reaction.

Many (most?) white, left-leaning men seem to get the idea of white male privilege.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #133)

Wed Mar 28, 2012, 06:32 PM

134. There are many kinds of privilege. A white middle class woman about equals a poor white man

Throwing male privilege in someones face while ignoring class/race/orientation and various other privileges misses it.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #133)

Wed Mar 28, 2012, 06:51 PM

135. It's not about "getting it"....

Yes, most white men do "get it" that minorities and women face more challenges than them. I'd imagine that even a large number of blowhard republicans realize that. The point is that we don't have any control over it. We can't change our ancestry. We can't change our gender (Ok, we technically can, but it's costly and quite a process).....Unless we're in a position of hiring authority, the only thing we have that can help to change the status quo is our vote.

But I repeat... how much shame and guilt do you want us to have over this? Should we give up our homes and jobs because others are more deserving? Demand pay cuts from our employers? The shaming and demonization of white men does nothing but drive them out of the democratic party. So what you get is FEWER votes to change the status quo....and more votes for idiots like Santorum, Paul, Gingrich, Romney and their ilk.... This divisiveness is what causes white men to jump ship.

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Response to eek MD (Reply #135)

Tue Apr 3, 2012, 12:08 PM

148. +1 I'd add that harping on white male privilege while the Democratic Party accedes to policies

 

that destroy the public sector that disproportionately hires minority workers is kind of ironic.

The Party's failure to support the working class generally is one reason for the disaffection of white working class men, whose income has stagnated since the 70s.

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #148)

Tue Apr 3, 2012, 12:47 PM

151. I'd go one farther: the singular focus on race is often pushed by corporate, "New" Democrats

who push job obliterating policies like deregulation of the banks and "free trade".

Racial animus is a great diversion from the systematic and bipartisan impoverishing of the American working class. It's as intended.

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Response to Romulox (Reply #151)

Tue Apr 3, 2012, 12:52 PM

152. Agreed. Not only a diversion, but a good way to keep people isolated in their own little

 

interest groups so they can't make common cause against the forces that are dragging everyone down.

Story on that: I went to college with a hispanic guy who grew up in a family of migrant workers. First in his family to go to college. We wound up getting an apartment together and becoming lasting friends. Some years ago we were talking politics and he was excited about a latino candidate. I said that the candidate didn't really represent the interests of latinos like my friend, he was from a banking family connected to some disreputable regimes in latin america.

My friend didn't want to hear it. At all. In fact, he implied that my bringing it up showed my white prejudice. And he is a friend. Race is a very powerful counterstory to class.

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Response to Romulox (Reply #151)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 01:06 AM

177. yup, that was my whole point in this thread

 

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002489901

which of course, was not well received

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Response to eek MD (Reply #135)

Tue Apr 3, 2012, 03:45 PM

159. Fuck yes.

Whatever hell you catch for saying that, know you've said what many, many think and have been cowed into not bringing up.

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Response to eek MD (Reply #135)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 07:53 AM

183. BS to your second paragraph

If you get the concept, you would realize that is stupid and no one is asking you to do that.

It's not about shame or guilt either. No one is asking you to feel that way.



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Response to treestar (Reply #183)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 11:26 AM

187. Of course it's not about shame or guilt

it's about recognizing privilege, acknowledging it if/when you're called on it, and ending the primitive habit of ignorantly clinging to the concept of unearned status.

Not exactly rocket surgery.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #133)

Tue Apr 3, 2012, 12:42 PM

150. Which types of men are those?

 

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #150)

Tue Apr 3, 2012, 01:22 PM

153. The ones who don't understand the concept of privilege,

obviously.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #153)

Tue Apr 3, 2012, 01:30 PM

154. Circular.

 

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Response to redqueen (Reply #133)

Tue Apr 3, 2012, 03:43 PM

158. "I wonder what drives this kind of reaction"

Maybe people who have not benefited from the privelege you insist they've benefited from don't like being told how priveleged they are. Maybe having some purer-than-thou stranger on the internet tell you that your struggle wasn't really a struggle, not like other people's anyway, doesn't sit well with everyone.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Tue Apr 3, 2012, 10:55 AM

142. Most who fought for worker's rights were white men

The guys who were beaten and sometimes killed by police, scabs or hired thugs were for the most part white men.

It's simplistic to say that white men rule.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Tue Apr 3, 2012, 03:55 PM

160. "He's a white male with hair, Lemon. The sky's the limit."

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Tue Apr 3, 2012, 04:53 PM

163. Black men dominate the NBA

with its fantastic pay and status. I doubt anyone thinks their experience is relevant to the vast majority of black men NOT in the NBA.

White men rule as CEOs and politicos with fantastic pay and status. Their experience is just as relevant to the vast majority of white men NOT CEOs and politicos

Of course there is white privilege - even male privilege. It's just not doing much to help the vast majority of white males.

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Response to dmallind (Reply #163)

Thu Apr 5, 2012, 09:33 PM

171. THose NBA players were chosen by white males

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Response to uponit7771 (Reply #171)

Fri Apr 6, 2012, 11:31 AM

188. Those white men chose the players who would make them the most money.

 

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Thu Apr 5, 2012, 08:52 PM

169. Not only white, but witty, intelligent, dashingly handsome & not bald.

Sittin' plush with a royal flush, aces back to back.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Thu Apr 5, 2012, 09:23 PM

170. Not these two white men - walking in park, while being white=dead.

 

quote - ‘Who are those crackers walking past the park'?
Shortly after that, Bane testified he heard gunshots. He described a cracker as a white person.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2120629/Teenager-accused-killing-British-tourists-told-friend-shot-men-pleaded-lives.html

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Response to Zax2me (Reply #170)

Thu Apr 5, 2012, 09:54 PM

172. shhhh...nt

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

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