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n2doc

(47,953 posts)
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 01:06 PM Mar 2014

Car Dealers Are Terrified of Tesla’s Plan to Eliminate Oil Changes


BY MARCUS WOHLSEN

Car dealers fear Tesla. In states across the country, powerful car dealer associations have lobbied to ensure the electric car maker and its direct-sales model are kept out. This movement claimed another victory this week when New Jersey banned Tesla stores in the state.

On the surface, the fear is hard to fathom. In New Jersey, for instance, sales of Tesla’s $70,000 Model S reportedly number in the hundreds. But if you dig a little deeper, it becomes obvious why dealers are worried. They don’t just fear Tesla’s cars. They fear Tesla’s plan to create a world where you never have to bring your car into the shop again.

The first and most striking way Tesla kills the dealer service department cash cow is downloads. As part of its sales pitch, Tesla says you should think of its Model S sedan as “an app on four wheels.” That may sound like vacuous Silicon Valley marketing copy, but the company isn’t just being metaphorical. Software is at the heart of what keeps Teslas running. These internet-connected cars are designed to self-diagnose their problems. The vehicles can also download software fixes or updates — even new features — much like an iPhone when Apple puts out a new version of iOS. When fixes happen over the air, there’s no need for a shop in the first place.

The ability to repair a car via software is especially important when the vehicle itself consists of so much new technology that traditional mechanics don’t know how to fix. The flip side is that without an internal combustion engine, there’s not as much to fix. I’ve written before that a Tesla without its outer shell looks like a cell phone on wheels. It’s basically just a big battery. That means no spark plugs, no air filters, no fuel pumps, no timing belts. In short, Teslas don’t have any of the parts that force you to take your car in for “regularly scheduled maintenance” — services that can cost dearly at the dealer. But it’s hard to charge for an oil change when there’s no oil to be changed.

more

http://www.wired.com/business/2014/03/car-dealers-fear-teslas-plan-end-oil-changes-forever/
96 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Car Dealers Are Terrified of Tesla’s Plan to Eliminate Oil Changes (Original Post) n2doc Mar 2014 OP
This is the future of automobiles, and thankfully it cannot happen soon enough ... MindMover Mar 2014 #1
You do know the motor is behind the driver in the Roadster Peregrine Mar 2014 #4
It's also the past, which should be a lesson for us Jesus Malverde Mar 2014 #5
and how many million vehicles were built and on the roads in those days ... ??? MindMover Mar 2014 #6
A late night show host and his electric car... hunter Mar 2014 #57
very cool!...nt Jesus Malverde Mar 2014 #62
A 600 dollar a year service plan is ridiculous. Mosby Mar 2014 #2
I take it you are not religious about oil changes, speaking of the OP nadinbrzezinski Mar 2014 #10
I change my oil every 6000 miles Mosby Mar 2014 #11
Local shop charges 45, and we have it done by our mechanic nadinbrzezinski Mar 2014 #12
That was a good idea Mosby Mar 2014 #13
half that, and it had 44K when we bought her nadinbrzezinski Mar 2014 #14
With all that... CanSocDem Mar 2014 #58
It is separate from what I answered nadinbrzezinski Mar 2014 #59
$25 at the one of the local shops Nikia Mar 2014 #25
"Trannys and differentials"? kristopher Mar 2014 #28
Yes, of course they do. AtheistCrusader Mar 2014 #32
OK, I guess that is technically a transmission... kristopher Mar 2014 #37
We need a federal law FreeJoe Mar 2014 #3
Cars were made for the oil industry. That's why the electric car was killed over 100 years ago. nt valerief Mar 2014 #16
And 20 years ago... KansDem Mar 2014 #18
Yeah, that's where I learned about it (I have the DVD). All those electric trolleys that provided valerief Mar 2014 #19
Yes, that was tragic for Los Angeles. SunSeeker Mar 2014 #34
You could ride the Metrolink. A HERETIC I AM Mar 2014 #51
Metrolink does not serve the densely populated coastal communities. SunSeeker Mar 2014 #54
Fair enough A HERETIC I AM Mar 2014 #56
Yes. For folks who live along the lines, it has been great. SunSeeker Mar 2014 #69
No FreeJoe Mar 2014 #70
Small range and long recharges MurrayDelph Mar 2014 #74
How much do you drive on average daily? kristopher Mar 2014 #76
Here in NJ the Dealers are forcing Tesla to close it's doors!!!! Walk away Mar 2014 #7
So wouldn't a lot of people lose their jobs? treestar Mar 2014 #8
Not to mention, "Oooog Not Trust New Techmology!" Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #61
Not having Tesla service centers and mechanics indie9197 Mar 2014 #9
They have service centers, but not many, because they come to YOU. SunSeeker Mar 2014 #17
Tesla S has a base price just under 60K. For that price, they should come over, fix the car Bluenorthwest Mar 2014 #21
There's plenty of brands that sell $60k cars that treat you like shit. SunSeeker Mar 2014 #22
so the Tesla has no wearable parts? Bombero1956 Mar 2014 #15
Teslas don’t have any of the parts that force you to take your car in for “regularly scheduled Bluenorthwest Mar 2014 #20
That's not what the article says. SunSeeker Mar 2014 #27
How many of us can afford a $70k new car? SheilaT Mar 2014 #23
Google "tesla gigafactory" kristopher Mar 2014 #77
Okay, so now I see they hope to have a car SheilaT Mar 2014 #82
The dealers are really pissed because they are not involved in the biggest cut... madinmaryland Mar 2014 #24
The Service Departments are the biggest profit center at most dealerships. bluedigger Mar 2014 #47
I don't disagree that they can be a very lucrative business. On the other hand madinmaryland Mar 2014 #49
Exactly. The initial sale is a small part of the dealership profit BlueStreak Mar 2014 #53
I think it is really a matter of scale. bluedigger Mar 2014 #63
I agree. There are no Lamborghini dealers in my state. BlueStreak Mar 2014 #65
But why should he not be able to market his cars in NJ now? bluedigger Mar 2014 #67
I would flip that around BlueStreak Mar 2014 #71
Are you seriously saying dealers do ANYTHING about lemons? kristopher Mar 2014 #78
He want factory owned stores, not franchised dealers. kristopher Mar 2014 #79
actually, most dealers lose money on new cars snooper2 Mar 2014 #91
The "sales dude" doesn't give a shit about cash or finance. Hassin Bin Sober Mar 2014 #93
You left out Undercoating. :) BlueStreak Mar 2014 #96
K&R for bookmarking: Tesla. n/t Whisp Mar 2014 #26
Last I checked, no one ever hit a pothole in an app and bent an A-arm jmowreader Mar 2014 #29
I prefer working with the manufacturer. Screw dealers. AtheistCrusader Mar 2014 #35
This is government we're talking about jmowreader Mar 2014 #41
Elon Musk's Letter to the People of New Jersey kristopher Mar 2014 #30
I like Musk. He gets shit done. AtheistCrusader Mar 2014 #38
Now I'm worried about Musk jmowreader Mar 2014 #44
I would not worry about Musk, Tesla has a very bright future ahead of it Bjorn Against Mar 2014 #50
It's the delusion that auto dealers have something against electric cars jmowreader Mar 2014 #55
Tesla is working towards those $25,000 cars Bjorn Against Mar 2014 #64
Who cares if they have cars to sell? AtheistCrusader Mar 2014 #66
You're saying an auto dealer that can't get electric cars would recommend them to his customers? jmowreader Mar 2014 #73
No, I'm saying if the dealer wants to exist, they better give the manufacturer a AtheistCrusader Mar 2014 #75
I imagine stables had the same anxiety early in the last century... JCMach1 Mar 2014 #31
And a remarkable absence Turbineguy Mar 2014 #33
No wonder … I've been told dealers make more money on repairs than sales Auggie Mar 2014 #36
Terrific Post...I really hadn't thought about this ...of taking it into the shop Stuart G Mar 2014 #39
What is hard to understand sadoldgirl Mar 2014 #40
Tesla just recently announced they are building a huge new factory Bjorn Against Mar 2014 #48
"An app on 4 wheels"? Great, that means it can crash. All kidding aside, I wish him luck. 7962 Mar 2014 #42
I really look forward to the day they start making Teslas that I can afford Bjorn Against Mar 2014 #43
well gee at well over $50K each everyone is going to buy one. n/t. airplaneman Mar 2014 #45
The transition from piston engine to electric cars is already happening before our eyes. GETPLANING Mar 2014 #46
I'd still go with a Nissan LEAF if I was in the market for an e-car NickB79 Mar 2014 #52
We know Christie and his bunch are scared.. Cha Mar 2014 #60
In a week where the big auto news is the average American can't afford a new car or truck Johonny Mar 2014 #68
It may be a proxy for the REAL fight that lies ahead BlueStreak Mar 2014 #72
Perhaps you could link to that "argument" by Musk. kristopher Mar 2014 #80
BTW did you tell everyone you are shorting Tesla stock? kristopher Mar 2014 #81
Why should I? This thread is about dealerships. BlueStreak Mar 2014 #83
You've been all over DU talking down a company that you've shorted. kristopher Mar 2014 #84
Most of my posts were before I took a position BlueStreak Mar 2014 #85
You are acting every bit the typical short seller talking down a stock. kristopher Mar 2014 #86
I'm only interested in facts BlueStreak Mar 2014 #87
Only insofar as you can spin them to your benefit kristopher Mar 2014 #89
Nothing I type here will affect the valuation of Tesla stock or options BlueStreak Mar 2014 #90
I started research into unethical internet behavior watching shorts during the late 90s. kristopher Mar 2014 #92
Are you accusing me of unethical behavior at DU? BlueStreak Mar 2014 #94
But there are some moving parts that still will require service. haele Mar 2014 #88
I would love a Tesla JustAnotherGen Mar 2014 #95

Peregrine

(992 posts)
4. You do know the motor is behind the driver in the Roadster
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 01:35 PM
Mar 2014

The Tesla Roadster in mid-engine (?, or is it mid-motor). It uses a Lotus chasis.

Mosby

(16,299 posts)
2. A 600 dollar a year service plan is ridiculous.
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 01:26 PM
Mar 2014

Kinda shoots down his whole premise.

Furthermore, brushes, bearings, trannys, differentials etc all need maintenance/replacement at some point.

Most years I spend about 50 dollars to maintain my truck, had it now for ten years and probably put in a total of 2 grand, which includes a couple brake jobs, timing belt/water pump and front bilstein struts.

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
10. I take it you are not religious about oil changes, speaking of the OP
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 01:51 PM
Mar 2014

even with the new oils that alone will be 50 bucks per change, That is at least three times a year.

Mosby

(16,299 posts)
11. I change my oil every 6000 miles
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 01:55 PM
Mar 2014

I usually do it myself but I have a really good shop nearby that does it for about 30 bucks.

eta my SOs car uses synthetic 0-5w or something like that, the shop charged an extra 5 bucks.

Dealers were ripping people off with the new oils, but now others are making it so the price has come down.


 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
12. Local shop charges 45, and we have it done by our mechanic
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 01:58 PM
Mar 2014

After we bought the used jeep we had all liquids changed as well, not a cheap service, but it was preventive.

Mosby

(16,299 posts)
13. That was a good idea
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 02:08 PM
Mar 2014

Not quite as important as back in the day when there wasn't premix coolant, but you never know what someone may have put in the radiator overflow tank.

If the vehicle has more than 100K miles on it it's not a bad idea to bleed the brake system.

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
14. half that, and it had 44K when we bought her
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 02:10 PM
Mar 2014

a nice 2004 Jeep Sahara, so it had all the off road package we needed already for work.

We had an extra air filter change or two, but that is because we cover wild fires. If you have one near home, and there is ash, change the air filter after the fire is out

 

CanSocDem

(3,286 posts)
58. With all that...
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 06:08 PM
Mar 2014


...I presume you are all in favour of the OP's contention that big business routinely stifles or kills technology that favours public interest over private profits.

Not to sound snarky but the belief in the general superiority of 19th century "American" technology over the marvelous innovations of the Tesla for example, is why the USA will ultimately fail.



.
 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
59. It is separate from what I answered
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 06:10 PM
Mar 2014

but in general the arc of empires is clear, and we are on the down slope. This is just one signpost.

Nikia

(11,411 posts)
25. $25 at the one of the local shops
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 03:10 PM
Mar 2014

I first used them because I noticed they were open before I go to work. I continue to use them because of that, they are relatively quick, and I 've been told that $25 for an oil change is a good price.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
28. "Trannys and differentials"?
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 03:15 PM
Mar 2014

In an electric vehicle?

I agree though, the service plan is expensive. Here's what they are shooting for. Btw, it's a level of service that you'll find standard in Japan and Germany (and you pay for it). We have a somewhat different perception on car ownership here, so I don't know if Musk's approach is really the right one. I suspect that as the EV becomes more mainstream the competition will push all the makers to do things more like we are used to.

There are more details at the link:

21ST CENTURY SERVICE
All the time. Wherever you are.
We designed Model S to be easy to own. Routine software updates handle most issues without interrupting your life, while annual inspections ensure your car’s long-term health. Model S is also smart: it periodically monitors itself and can alert Tesla, with your permission, to issues so that they can be resolved quickly and easily. Many issues can be resolved remotely, but if your Model S does require in-person attention, you can bring it to a Tesla Service Center, schedule a Tesla Ranger visit, or have your car picked up in exchange for a loaner at no charge with our valet service.

http://www.teslamotors.com/service#/tesla-service

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
32. Yes, of course they do.
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 03:22 PM
Mar 2014

The Tesla S has a Borg Warner fixed gear gearbox (8.2752:1), with an electric parking pawl and a mechanical lubrication pump. It also has an open diff.

So yes, it has gear oils.

You don't change them anywhere near as often as the engine oil in a IC engine though.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
37. OK, I guess that is technically a transmission...
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 03:30 PM
Mar 2014

...but a single speed gearbox isn't what usually comes to mind when I think of a device designed to try and maintain an ICE at optimum RPMs.

FreeJoe

(1,039 posts)
3. We need a federal law
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 01:28 PM
Mar 2014

We need to override the state bans on direct sales. It only serves to protect car dealerships.

valerief

(53,235 posts)
16. Cars were made for the oil industry. That's why the electric car was killed over 100 years ago. nt
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 02:21 PM
Mar 2014

KansDem

(28,498 posts)
18. And 20 years ago...
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 02:30 PM
Mar 2014
Who Killed the Electric Car? is a 2006 documentary film that explores the creation, limited commercialization, and subsequent destruction of the battery electric vehicle in the United States, specifically the General Motors EV1 of the mid-1990s. The film explores the roles of automobile manufacturers, the oil industry, the US government, the California government, batteries, hydrogen vehicles, and consumers in limiting the development and adoption of this technology.

After a premiere at the Sundance Film Festival, it was released theatrically by Sony Pictures Classics in June, 2006 and then on DVD by Sony Pictures Home Entertainment on November 14, 2006.

During an interview with CBS News, director Chris Paine announced that he had started a new documentary about electric cars with a working title of Who Saved the Electric Car?,[2] later renamed Revenge of the Electric Car, which had its world premiere at the 2011 Tribeca Film Festival on Earth Day, April 22, 2011.[3]


Who Killed the Electric Car?

valerief

(53,235 posts)
19. Yeah, that's where I learned about it (I have the DVD). All those electric trolleys that provided
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 02:33 PM
Mar 2014

public transportation all over our country were killed by the oil industry. Is there anything the oil industry doesn't kill?

SunSeeker

(51,550 posts)
34. Yes, that was tragic for Los Angeles.
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 03:29 PM
Mar 2014

In the early 1960s, they ripped out all the Red Car electric trolleys that provided efficient and quaint (think San Francisco) public transportation around and to Los Angeles from as far away as Orange County. They just stacked them in the desert and paved over their tracks. Horrific.

If they hadn't done that, I would be able to take a trolley from my home in Orange County to downtown Los Angeles where I work. Instead, I battle the freeways in a grueling 3-hour round trip.

SunSeeker

(51,550 posts)
54. Metrolink does not serve the densely populated coastal communities.
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 05:11 PM
Mar 2014

Coastal Orange County were I live is not served by Metrolink. If you look at that Metrolink line map on your link, all the OC lines are far inland (the map is not to scale, as it says on the map), and does not drop down to the coast--where the densest population lives--until you get to San Juan Capistrano in southern Orange County, right where it starts to get rural. (Here is a "to scale" map: http://metrolinktrains.com/routes/ ) That is the exact opposite of how the old Red Car lines were. The nearest light rail stop to me where I live in Orange County is in Long Beach, but that is 20 minutes away. I would have to drive up to Long Beach (and a high crime part at that), park my car there (and hope it and all its parts are there when I get back), and take the 45-60 minute ride on the Metro MTA "Blue Line" to downtown. My roundtrip would still be 3 hours, and I would still have to drive and pay the rather high Metro fare to boot.

They are trying to expand the Metrolink lines, but it is massively expensive at this point, requiring eminent domain proceedings and huge tunneling projects costing billions. This is particularly true for the densely populated coastal communities, with their astronomical property values. Which is why there are no lines along LA's coastal communites, nor where it is REALLY needed, like along the path of the 405 Freeway in Los Longeles and Orange Counties--where most of the people are. The few Metrolink lines we have don't even go all the way to LAX nor anywhere near Orange County Airport. It is so stupid.

A HERETIC I AM

(24,366 posts)
56. Fair enough
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 05:47 PM
Mar 2014

I lived in Palmdale from 2001 to 2004 and used it to commute all the way down to Irvine a few times. It took a while and I had to sit at Union Station for a time, but it beat the hell out of having to drive it.

SunSeeker

(51,550 posts)
69. Yes. For folks who live along the lines, it has been great.
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 06:59 PM
Mar 2014

There's a guy at work who takes the train in every day from Fullerton. He purposely moved to Fullerton to be near a train stop. He sleeps, eats his breakfast and reads on the train. He wouldn't work in downtown if he couldn't ride the train.

FreeJoe

(1,039 posts)
70. No
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 07:17 PM
Mar 2014

Electric cars died because of range restrictions. Even today, batteries have far lower energy density than gasoline. It was much, much worse 100 years ago. People wanted cars with long ranges and quick refueling, so they choose gas cars. Nobody killed them.

MurrayDelph

(5,293 posts)
74. Small range and long recharges
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 10:35 PM
Mar 2014

are what killed it, along with only being able to lease EV1s.

Six or more tines a year, I have to commute between north of Portland to the heart of LA, about 1200 miles and (depending on route) between 17 and 20 hours of driving time (not including breaks). Currently in my Prius, I have to stop for gas twice, which adds less than twenty minutes to the drive.

Until electric cars can go about 400 miles between charges (or power swaps) and can get you back on the road in under15 minutes, they'll never replace cars.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
76. How much do you drive on average daily?
Sun Mar 16, 2014, 05:40 AM
Mar 2014

A "series hybrid", like the Volt would give you the best of both worlds. I can't say enough good about our "parallel hybrid" Prius, but I'm looking forward to our next vehicle. By then the price of series hybrids will have dropped enough to make it affordable for us. With our driving habits I doubt we'd average more than about 25 gallons of gas per year.

Walk away

(9,494 posts)
7. Here in NJ the Dealers are forcing Tesla to close it's doors!!!!
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 01:42 PM
Mar 2014

The powerful car dealer lobby has made it illegal to sell car directly through the manufacturer. The two Tesla stores are being shuttered now.

Sucks!

indie9197

(509 posts)
9. Not having Tesla service centers and mechanics
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 01:48 PM
Mar 2014

will be a big problem for them eventually. Mechanical things break and wear out, even electric vehicles. And anything with a computer will also have problems. I am guessing they will not be cheap to maintain after 5-10 years.

SunSeeker

(51,550 posts)
17. They have service centers, but not many, because they come to YOU.
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 02:27 PM
Mar 2014

They'll come to your house and give you a loaner, all at no extra charge. Try getting that from a Toyota dealer.

The attacks on Tesla are bullshit.

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
21. Tesla S has a base price just under 60K. For that price, they should come over, fix the car
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 02:46 PM
Mar 2014

do the dishes and leave a mint on the pillow. The dealership issue is not about repairs anyway.

SunSeeker

(51,550 posts)
22. There's plenty of brands that sell $60k cars that treat you like shit.
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 03:00 PM
Mar 2014

Try getting a home repair visit from your dealer for your Corvette or Mercedes.

I don't understand your hostility toward Tesla. I can understand why Tesla's competitors are hostile, but why you?

Bombero1956

(3,539 posts)
15. so the Tesla has no wearable parts?
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 02:16 PM
Mar 2014

No tires, brakes or shocks to replace? No coolant for the AC? No wiring to wear out? There is no such thing as a car that doesn't require periodic maintenance. If it has to be fixed on a car with an internal combustion engine it will have to be fixed on the Tesla.

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
20. Teslas don’t have any of the parts that force you to take your car in for “regularly scheduled
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 02:43 PM
Mar 2014

maintenance'? Really? No brakes on a Tesla? No tires?

SunSeeker

(51,550 posts)
27. That's not what the article says.
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 03:15 PM
Mar 2014

The article is not written by Tesla, but by a Wired Magazine contributor, and he acknowledges Teslas still need yearly service:

http://www.wired.com/business/2014/03/car-dealers-fear-teslas-plan-end-oil-changes-forever/

To be fair, Tesla isn’t doing away entirely with bringing your car in. The company recommends an inspection once a year or every 12,500 miles. Its service plans start at $600 per year* or less if you buy multiple years at once. The plans include replacement of standard parts like brake pads and windshield wipers. The company will monitor your car remotely and tell you when there are problems, such as faulty batteries. In theory, there are pitfalls in an arrangement where the company that makes your car is the only one that can fix it. But Tesla would seem to alleviate that concern with its flat-rate plans, rather than fee-for-service gouging for every fix.


Also, the writer is incorrect that you "need to bring your car in." As the Tesla site confirms, they will come to you.







 

SheilaT

(23,156 posts)
23. How many of us can afford a $70k new car?
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 03:04 PM
Mar 2014

I certainly can't. I doubt I'll be able to afford one used.

Okay, I recognize that eventually they may well have such cars at the kind of prices I pay, but this is not something that is going to happen overnight.

Remember when tires lasted maybe 20,000 miles? Or when you needed to get an actual tune-up quite regularly? Or when people who could possibly afford it got a new car every two or three years because, quite frankly, any vehicle that had been driven that long was already wearing out. When the odometers topped out at 99999 because almost now cars could possibly go for 100,000 miles?

My point is that cars have gotten better, more reliable, longer lasting, and so on over the past century. The Tesla is just another kind of car to come down the pike.

 

SheilaT

(23,156 posts)
82. Okay, so now I see they hope to have a car
Sun Mar 16, 2014, 01:57 PM
Mar 2014

that would compete against a small BMW and be less than 40k.

That's still about double what I'd pay new, and three or four times what I pay used. Give me something that competes against a Honda Civic or Fit and you'll have me. Maybe. By then those vehicles will probably be running totally on batteries themselves, again at a much lower cost.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying these guys shouldn't produce these cars, but their market share isn't going to overwhelm any of the companies now in business. This is more of a heads-up that conventional cars are going to change themselves.

madinmaryland

(64,931 posts)
24. The dealers are really pissed because they are not involved in the biggest cut...
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 03:09 PM
Mar 2014

The sale of the vehicle which also means the profit of selling a big loan, also.

bluedigger

(17,086 posts)
47. The Service Departments are the biggest profit center at most dealerships.
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 04:04 PM
Mar 2014

You don't think they are paying their mechanics $60-120/hour, do you?

madinmaryland

(64,931 posts)
49. I don't disagree that they can be a very lucrative business. On the other hand
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 04:17 PM
Mar 2014

the dealership service industry does have a lot of competition for many of the very things that they offer.

The issue, I believe is that they want to continue the monopoly they have over the sale of new vehicles. No manufacturer, in most states, can sell a new car directly to a customer. They have to use a dealer to sell their vehicles. If that monopoly is cracked, they will cease to exist, except for their service departments.

 

BlueStreak

(8,377 posts)
53. Exactly. The initial sale is a small part of the dealership profit
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 05:06 PM
Mar 2014

There have been so many bad actors in the car business over the years, states certainly have a vested interest in requiring a substantial point of presence for anybody selling cars in each state. There is no doubt that the dealer associations have used this politically to their advantage to erect barriers to competition, and some of that needs to be rolled back.

But it is absurd for Musk to cry that this should not apply to him because -- well you know, because I am a visionary and how dare you suggest that I might produce a lemon at some point, and if I do, that is my own business ...

What's the big deal? If he is going to produce 500,000 cars a year, then he OUGHT to have local dealerships.

Regarding the dealership profit breakdown, it is complicated with all sorts of floorplan deals and other incentives, but a dealer might net $1000 on a high end vehicle and under $500 on a small car. If they can get that customer to patronize the dealership throughout the life of the car, they could easily make well over $1000 in service profits over the life of the car. And then the customer is also more likely to buy the next car from that same dealer (even if it is a completely different auto manufacturer the next time.) Dealerships have a real fortress to protect.

bluedigger

(17,086 posts)
63. I think it is really a matter of scale.
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 06:15 PM
Mar 2014

Right now, Musk doesn't have the market presence to sustain a dealership network, and therefore offers service to the door directly. At some point of sales, it will make sense to transition into a dealer network. The other traditional manufacturers want to prevent him from reaching that point, and becoming a real threat to their market share.

 

BlueStreak

(8,377 posts)
65. I agree. There are no Lamborghini dealers in my state.
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 06:30 PM
Mar 2014

If I want one, I can go to Chicago. This seems like much ado over nothing. If Musk doesn't think New Jersey is enough of a market to justify a dealership, that is his own decision. Given how important automobiles are to the economy of a state and the safety of its citizens, I don't think it is too unreasonable to require a significant commitment if he is going to sell to the NJ public.

bluedigger

(17,086 posts)
67. But why should he not be able to market his cars in NJ now?
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 06:55 PM
Mar 2014

Just because his business model is non-traditional in the industry is no reason to use it as an excuse to exclude him from the market. It's an abuse of regulatory authority to advantage the established sellers. What he is trying to do, establish an independent company in the automotive business, is without any real precedent in the modern US automotive industry's history. You can't compare it to an established foreign manufacturer that already has a global sales base setting up a dealership network here. He needs a chance to develop a safety and reliability record, as well as wider brand recognition, before he can take the next step.

 

BlueStreak

(8,377 posts)
71. I would flip that around
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 08:51 PM
Mar 2014

Why should Musk be allowed to set up storefronts that sell to (some might say take advantage of) New Jersey residents and not be in a position to service the product after the sale?

I'm ambivalent about this. I think the state has a legitimate interest in making sure that vehicles are in a position to be serviced. But I also agree that the entrenched dealers manipulate this to protect a fortress.

I'm just saying there are definitely 2 sides to this story. I don't really like the idea that in my area there are basically 5 different people who control 75% of all dealerships for a population center of 1.5 million. OTOH, I sure as hell don't want Wal*Mart selling cars and driving dealerships out of business because Wal*Mart is "more efficient."

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
78. Are you seriously saying dealers do ANYTHING about lemons?
Sun Mar 16, 2014, 05:49 AM
Mar 2014

Other than try to scalp the sap who is stuck with one when they sell him/her a new one.

And speaking of scalping...
I've had to help 3 different friends/relatives in the past couple of years unwind the crap they were pressured into buying in the financing office - in each each instance they paid about $3000 (they were able to cancel) for overpriced garbage. And, of course, that doesn't count the money on the interest rate spread or the money for the floor plan dealers always lock away. The floor plan money is enough by itself to equal the profit you quoted.


The internet is truly a wonderful information tool, isn't it?

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
79. He want factory owned stores, not franchised dealers.
Sun Mar 16, 2014, 05:55 AM
Mar 2014

That means he does have local outlets or a presence or a "dealership". And what he's suggesting is a structure that has much cleaner rules of accountability when something does go wrong.

 

snooper2

(30,151 posts)
91. actually, most dealers lose money on new cars
Mon Mar 17, 2014, 02:19 PM
Mar 2014

If you "break even" on selling a new car a dealership is considered doing really good-

It's rare for a dealer to make money on the sale of a car.

Money is made on LOANS-

(that's why they hate if you buy a new car cash. Negotiate the price down, say you are paying cash and watch the salesdudes head explode )

Hassin Bin Sober

(26,325 posts)
93. The "sales dude" doesn't give a shit about cash or finance.
Mon Mar 17, 2014, 02:42 PM
Mar 2014

It's the Finance or Business manager who cares about that stuff.

In fact, the salesperson would probably have it easier to do a cash deal depending how the dealer processes the transaction.

(12 years as a finance mgr in a dealership here)

We made our money, in this order from most to least, on:

1. used cars
2. new and used car service and parts
3. Financing and financial products (service contracts, loans, gap insurance, credit insurance)
4. New car sales

 

BlueStreak

(8,377 posts)
96. You left out Undercoating. :)
Mon Mar 17, 2014, 03:31 PM
Mar 2014

FWIW, car dealers aren't the only ones that are maligned. See

https://soundcloud.com/live-wire-radio/live-wire-radio-242#t=50:50

Actually these days, car dealers probably rank above many occupations, and way above lawyers and Congress. Seriously, the shakeout in 2008 seems to have brought up the level of dealer a notch, at least new car dealers.

I haven't worked in a dealership, but I believe what you are saying is very widely true. A good salesman is like gold. You really want the salesman (in any business) focused on selling. Smart businesses have other staffers to worry about the other things. And if that means that a few deals end up not being as profitable as others, you live with that. Likewise, there are usually some not so good salespeople in any dealership and you really don't want to give them any extra reasons to lose a sale.

jmowreader

(50,555 posts)
29. Last I checked, no one ever hit a pothole in an app and bent an A-arm
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 03:16 PM
Mar 2014

What would solve all this is for Elon Musk to find someone as rich as he is to start a nationwide chain of Tesla dealers...there is already at least one nationwide chain (AutoNation) and many regionals, so this isn't outrageous. Floorplan a half-dozen cars to each. They'll also do service on all makes and models and sell used cars to keep the doors open because $70,000 cars have a limited market no matter how good they are.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
35. I prefer working with the manufacturer. Screw dealers.
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 03:29 PM
Mar 2014

The only time my car has ever had a problem, a team of engineers had to fly out from Japan to Seattle, to disassemble half the car and make changes to the design.

Everything else I can do myself. I don't need the cost overhead. I'd prefer the manufacturer stand behind the car, directly.

jmowreader

(50,555 posts)
41. This is government we're talking about
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 03:45 PM
Mar 2014

Saturn's big selling point - the only one they really had because the car was a Chevrolet under its polymer skin - was its network of non-asshole dealers. Lexus also has a network of non-asshole dealers. So it's at least possible.

If Musk wants to sell in these states, either teaming with a new network of dealers or selling his cars through Rolls-Royce, Jaguar and Ferrari dealerships would work.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
30. Elon Musk's Letter to the People of New Jersey
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 03:18 PM
Mar 2014
On Tuesday, under pressure from the New Jersey auto dealer lobby to protect its monopoly, the New Jersey Motor Vehicle Commission, composed of political appointees of the Governor, ended your right to purchase vehicles at a manufacturer store within the state. Governor Christie had promised that this would be put to a vote of the elected state legislature, which is the appropriate way to change the law. When it became apparent to the auto dealer lobby that this approach would not succeed, they cut a backroom deal with the Governor to circumvent the legislative process and pass a regulation that is fundamentally contrary to the intent of the law.

It is worth examining the history of these laws to understand why they exist, as the auto dealer franchise laws were originally put in place for a just cause and are now being twisted to an unjust purpose. Many decades ago, the incumbent auto manufacturers sold franchises to generate capital and gain a salesforce. The franchisees then further invested a lot of their money and time in building up the dealerships. That’s a fair deal and it should not be broken. However, some of the big auto companies later engaged in pressure tactics to get the franchisees to sell their dealerships back at a low price. The franchisees rightly sought protection from their state legislatures, which resulted in the laws on the books today throughout the United States (these laws are not present anywhere else in the world).

The intent was simply to prevent a fair and longstanding deal between an existing auto company and its dealers from being broken, not to prevent a new company that has no franchisees from selling directly to consumers. In most states, the laws are reasonable and clear. In a handful of states, the laws were written in an overzealous or ambiguous manner. When all auto companies sold through franchises, this didn’t really matter. However, when Tesla came along as a new company with no existing franchisees, the auto dealers, who possess vastly more resources and influence than Tesla, nonetheless sought to force us to sell through them.

The reason that we did not choose to do this is that the auto dealers have a fundamental conflict of interest between promoting gasoline cars, which constitute virtually all of their revenue, and electric cars, which constitute virtually none. Moreover, it is much harder to sell a new technology car from a new company when people are so used to the old. Inevitably, they revert to selling what’s easy and it is game over for the new company.

The evidence is clear: when has an American startup auto company ever succeeded by selling through auto dealers...

http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/people-new-jersey

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
38. I like Musk. He gets shit done.
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 03:30 PM
Mar 2014

We need this technology to come to market, NOW. The volt is nice and all, but it's still a petrochemical car. I need an electric.

jmowreader

(50,555 posts)
44. Now I'm worried about Musk
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 03:56 PM
Mar 2014

A Tesla is more expensive than most of the cars in dealerships and comes in one body style. If someone walks into a dealership with four kids and says they have $35,000 to spend on a car, the last thing a good salesman would ever show them is a car with two fewer seats than they need that costs twice what they want to spend.

On the other hand, the Jaguar dealer would sell the fuck out of a Tesla - because selling fancy expensive cars is what they do.

Bjorn Against

(12,041 posts)
50. I would not worry about Musk, Tesla has a very bright future ahead of it
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 04:27 PM
Mar 2014

The Tesla Roadster was the model they made to compete with luxury vehicles like Jagauars and even Ferraris and Lamborghinis. The newer Model S is more of a family style vehicle that can comfotably seat four, but the price is still high at 70k. Tesla just announced they are building a $5 Billion dollar factory which will employ more than 6,000 people however, this factory will allow them to produce vehicles for much less and by 2017 they hope to sell new Teslas for 35k which will make them much more competetive in the auto industry.

jmowreader

(50,555 posts)
55. It's the delusion that auto dealers have something against electric cars
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 05:44 PM
Mar 2014

The thing auto dealers have something against is not having cars to sell. Let's be real: how many people are in the market for $70,000 cars? There are eleven Mercedes-Benz models, eleven Lexuses, a couple of Jaguars, ten Cadillacs, most of the BMW line, the Porsche Cayenne, every Lincoln they make, and the whole freakin' Volvo line that cost less than the cheapest Tesla...and that's just the establishment cars. Even at $35,000 there are a lot of less-expensive cars.

If he wants to be competitive in the auto industry he needs two things: a car that costs $25,000 and an optional gasoline generator. Thirty-five bills puts him the low end of almost all the brands in the last paragraph (Porsche Cayennes are too expensive), and no one ever asked a Volvo salesman if he was gonna get stuck forty miles from nowhere with no access to fuel. That doesn't happen. Even in Pig's Knuckle, Arkansas, you can get gas for a Volvo. I can think right off the top of my head of twenty places within an hour's drive of me where there will NEVER be a place to charge an electric car if you're just passing through. The people who live in Kansas and Nebraska can do the same thing. $25,000 puts him in the Nissan Leaf's neighborhood, and Nissan sells all of those they can make. And the generator gives the buyer an option: do I totally divorce the oil companies with a purely electric car, or do I make sure I can get home tonight with a backup generator?

Bjorn Against

(12,041 posts)
64. Tesla is working towards those $25,000 cars
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 06:21 PM
Mar 2014

The Tesla Roadster cost $130k, the Model S they got down to $70K, the next generation of Tesla cars they are aiming for $35k, and they have made it clear they eventually want to get to a price that is more affordable for typical consumers.

They are also working on building charging stations around the world in which people can stop and recharge their vehicle in just 30 minutes at no cost. They already have built enough of these charging stations to allow people to drive up and down both coasts and across the US as long as you stick to the highways they have already developed the stations on. In the next two years they plan on adding hundreds more and as Teslas become more and more popular they will keep adding more and more of these charging stations every year.

Tesla is getting their start by aiming at the luxury car market, but they have a future plan that goes well beyond luxury vehicles and it won't be too many years before they are producing vehicles for the masses.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
66. Who cares if they have cars to sell?
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 06:31 PM
Mar 2014

That's like safeway getting pissed I go to my local farmer's market. I have no obligation to shop at safeway. You retain customers by selling a better product, or coupling it to better service. Or, your dealership doesn't need to exist.

At 25k I will buy one (As long as it has range over 150mi) without a gas engine, and that will solve upwards of 99% of my driving.
I'd by a S right now, if it was half the price.

I'm pretty sure Musk knows what it takes to be competitive in the auto industry, but you should probably e-mail him with that stuff. I bet he'll appreciate it.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
75. No, I'm saying if the dealer wants to exist, they better give the manufacturer a
Sun Mar 16, 2014, 02:49 AM
Mar 2014

powerful incentive to bother with them at all.

And Tesla is trying to hit ever lower price points, so adding the overhead of a mostly useless dealer is... not optimal.

Stuart G

(38,419 posts)
39. Terrific Post...I really hadn't thought about this ...of taking it into the shop
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 03:31 PM
Mar 2014

Thanks for posting...

sadoldgirl

(3,431 posts)
40. What is hard to understand
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 03:44 PM
Mar 2014

is the fact that a $70,000 car could be such a great competition for the dealerships. I can see it for Mercedes and perhaps Cadillac models, but for a simple Toyota or Ford it seems unreasonable. Still, even in my state, there is only one Tesla place allowed. This is absolutely insane, if, and only if all the dealers are Climate Change deniars.

Bjorn Against

(12,041 posts)
48. Tesla just recently announced they are building a huge new factory
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 04:10 PM
Mar 2014

While Teslas may cost 70k now, once the new factory opens and they are able to produce vehicles faster and more efficiently the price should drop significantly. Rumor is the Teslas this new factory produces will sell for around 35k, while that is still a little on the spendy side it is low enough that many more people will be able to afford it and Tesla will start providing traditional automakers with real competition, that is why they are so scared.

 

7962

(11,841 posts)
42. "An app on 4 wheels"? Great, that means it can crash. All kidding aside, I wish him luck.
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 03:53 PM
Mar 2014

If he can revolutionize the battery and get a car where you can confidently go 500 miles, that will be a game changer.
For my situation, I drive a LOT and dont have time to recharge during the day.

Bjorn Against

(12,041 posts)
43. I really look forward to the day they start making Teslas that I can afford
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 03:55 PM
Mar 2014

Last edited Sat Mar 15, 2014, 07:13 PM - Edit history (1)

Their recent announcement of the new factory shows that they are serious about getting more of these things on the road and significant price cuts will no doubt be coming once that new assembly line starts rolling. There is no car that I want more than a Tesla, if they could get them to an affordable price I would be in heaven.

GETPLANING

(846 posts)
46. The transition from piston engine to electric cars is already happening before our eyes.
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 03:59 PM
Mar 2014

Last edited Sat Mar 15, 2014, 04:36 PM - Edit history (1)

Almost all cars in the 2014 model year are available as hybrids. Electric cars and trucks are literally just around the corner. And it will cut the business model of car dealers AND manufacturers in half. No more service departments, no more parts departments, either. The new generation of cars will last as long as the body (now aluminum and carbon fiber) and interiors will last.

Back in the 1990's, when electric cars first hit the streets, it wasn't the evil oil companies that stopped the technology from being developed. It was the car manufacturers themselves, once they realized what reliable, long-lasting, almost maintenance free cars meant for their business model. It scared the crap out of them.

I had a career in the automotive service industry, working for a major manufacturer. It is a shrinking field today, for several reasons. Cars are better built today than ever. Even traditionally high maintenance cars like BMW and Jaguar are becoming almost maintenance free. Warranties that used to be three years are now ten years, and manufacturers' pay allowances for warranty repairs are not enough for technicians to make a living on. It requires advanced training to diagnose and repair the systems on 21st century cars, but car dealers are holding pay down to 1990 levels. The result is that people are leaving the profession in droves.

So it really is the end of an era, in many respects. Not entirely a bad thing, however.

NickB79

(19,233 posts)
52. I'd still go with a Nissan LEAF if I was in the market for an e-car
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 04:35 PM
Mar 2014

70K is so far beyond my budget, it's not even funny.

Johonny

(20,833 posts)
68. In a week where the big auto news is the average American can't afford a new car or truck
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 06:56 PM
Mar 2014

because the average price ~32K is too much given the shrinking average American buying power. A company based on selling cars for 2-4 times the average price is somewhat comical. There market isn't the average consumer and even when their 50 K model comes out it won't be. Meanwhile the average consumer isn't even in the market for a new car period. That news is the real news that has automakers worried. Americans can't afford cars and more and more young people aren't buying them. Welcome to the generation of deflated salaries and a few hyperwealthy. Buying a Tesla modelS is a comical dream for most average Americans oil change or no.

 

BlueStreak

(8,377 posts)
72. It may be a proxy for the REAL fight that lies ahead
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 09:00 PM
Mar 2014

Tesla's argument is that because electric cars don't have as many parts requiring as frequent maintenance, Tesla shouldn't have to face the same dealership requirements that have evolved over the decades as a result of many abuses by the manufacturers (dangerous vehicles and lemons.)

This is the second most expensive purchase most people face. There are restrictions on who can sell houses too, for the same good reasons.

I completely agree with you that Tesla won't be a factor for middle class Americans for at least 5 years, and maybe never. Forget Tesla. The real issue is that anybody can make an electric car. It isn't that complicated: 4 wheels , a motor, and some batteries. Tesla makes a very good one and charges a small fortune. The dealers may be looking at companies like Tata (India) or even more likely, BYD (China), which are very likely to make electric cars that do work for middle class Americans.

The dealers want to make sure they can fend off those players. Tesla may prove to be just a skirmish and not the main battle -- an historical footnote.

 

BlueStreak

(8,377 posts)
83. Why should I? This thread is about dealerships.
Sun Mar 16, 2014, 04:39 PM
Mar 2014

But because you think this is important, here are the details. I am not shorting. I purchased puts a couple of weeks ago as part of a straddle that is heavily biased on the downside. The dealership spat had nothing to do with that decision. The dealership thing is a non-event. Musk may just be using that to try to get more free publicity. Nothing wrong with that. It is smart.

I bought the puts after I became convinced that European S-series orders are practically non-existent other than a couple of countries that have huge government incentives for EVs. Germany has done a couple hundred cars total. Most other countries a lot less than that. They are cutting prices in Europe to try to get some orders. There is still hope for China, and we shall see about that. But it is evident that the US backlog has dropped from 12 weeks to about 4 weeks now, which suggests the S series has basically run its course. And there is a pretty long wait for another model that will appeal to a wider swath of the marketplace.

I expect the stock to be up and down, but mostly down over the next 6 months. My puts are for January 2015. At this point, I intend to hold those options at least through the next quarterly report. I expect the numbers from 50,000 feet to look about the same as other recent quarters. But when people dig deeper they will see a significant change in the momentum that should take the stock down below 200 before the end of the year. If that happens, even I could afford an S car.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
84. You've been all over DU talking down a company that you've shorted.
Mon Mar 17, 2014, 11:21 AM
Mar 2014

It goes to motive and validity of your perspective.

 

BlueStreak

(8,377 posts)
85. Most of my posts were before I took a position
Mon Mar 17, 2014, 12:34 PM
Mar 2014

The stock is grossly overpriced. There are almost no analysts that dispute that. What they aren't so sure about is how many hysterical people there are who will keep bidding up the price. The various discussions here and elsewhere have given me enough confidence to put my money where my gut was.

Everybody has an agenda. I hope you are not suggesting that you don't reflect your personal opinions in the threads here. If you are suggesting that I have made posts here in order to make more money on my investment positions, well, you give both me and this site way too much credit. This is not a site frequented by big investors -- that is pretty clear. And the amount I have invested is a drop in the ocean.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
86. You are acting every bit the typical short seller talking down a stock.
Mon Mar 17, 2014, 01:23 PM
Mar 2014

You have shown zero interest in the truth if it contradicts the short position you hold.

 

BlueStreak

(8,377 posts)
87. I'm only interested in facts
Mon Mar 17, 2014, 01:33 PM
Mar 2014

like how many cars they are ACTUALLY selling and how many SOLID orders they really have in their backlog and WHO is going to partner in the gigaplant and HOW MUCH MONEY the partner is going to put in the deal and what the TRUE cost structure will be for the next generation product and WHEN it actually might generate volume business.

Others are welcome to follow fanciful tales about what might be some day in the future. But when it comes to investing, a person needs to seek the truth because there are countless examples where terrific sounding scenarios proved to be a house of cards.

And, are you stalking me? That's not nice. Don't you have anything better to do?

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
89. Only insofar as you can spin them to your benefit
Mon Mar 17, 2014, 02:12 PM
Mar 2014

You are past the point of evaluation - you've bet on a position and you are rooting for your horse to come in.

 

BlueStreak

(8,377 posts)
90. Nothing I type here will affect the valuation of Tesla stock or options
Mon Mar 17, 2014, 02:19 PM
Mar 2014

I have not stated anything at DU that is not already widely reported in places that are much more common for investors to look.

If by my stating some of the actual realities surrounding Tesla, some people decide to become less hysterical, that is not a bad thing. But really, I think you flatter my powers of persuasion way too much.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
92. I started research into unethical internet behavior watching shorts during the late 90s.
Mon Mar 17, 2014, 02:27 PM
Mar 2014

They can't help themselves. And finding the truth is the last thing they care about; they have only one thing in their field of view - destroy the company by any means necessary. They are involved in a type of warfare and see themselves as being on the front lines of where public opinion is formed.

You fit the profile to a T and you've already admitted what you are up to.

haele

(12,647 posts)
88. But there are some moving parts that still will require service.
Mon Mar 17, 2014, 01:58 PM
Mar 2014

In fact, with an electric power source, ensuring your suspension and trans-axial are in alignment is more critical; there's less tolerance for any "just offs", so the manufacturers should require alignment service every year to ensure optimal performance and battery life, right?

So it's not a total loss of jobs. Though those crap-paying quick-e-lube places will become more obsolete as time goes on, so that does mean less entry level jobs for the low skill ROP/online mechanic certification program graduates - and that is not a good thing.

But, unlike many job sectors that are going digital, there will still be a massive need for mechanics for private transportation and hauling.

Haele

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