An interesting exchange about white privilege in the comments of the DWB story I posted earlier

[MrScorpio]

Duke Woolworth • 16 hours ago

I can tell you as an old white guy who dresses "nice" when out in the evening and often during the day, I can get away with almost anything, usually drawing only a warning at most, and respect from the court at least. I've been called for jury duty four times, and showed up in respectable clothes, only to be excused. Attorneys evidently are only interested in the obviously brainless. In over a million miles of driving, I've never had a chargeable accident, but have been in several. The other parties have never had a job or insurance, including the daughter of a high school (attorney) classmate.

If I'm in a long checkout line, more often than not, another line will open to accommodate me.

Life is genuinely not fair. Ask Mr. Davis or a million others.

William_C_Diaz Duke Woolworth • 15 hours ago

Lol, no one gets better service than a black or hispanic in a nice store in Texas, lol. As soon as you walk in, a salespe4rson will come right up to you and ask 'Can I help you?' in the most condescending way possible and oftentimes stand so close to you that it invades your personal space.

In Texas, I had to send my wife (who is white) to rent apartments, because they wouldn't rent to me otherwise, but since she worked at the same Med school I attended, they let the surname slide if she did the paperwork.

Have a great day!

Duke Woolworth William_C_Diaz • 10 hours ago

I remember seeing two black shoppers looking at clothing in an otherwise all white ethnic mall in the 90's. Attached to them by an invisible 6' rope was a pair of suburban city (not mall) cops. Welcome to you suburbia, boys!

In the early 60's, I did private checks for the student housing bureau at a large northern state university. If a minority was turned down for an apartment, I'd go to see if the listing was still available to me, a white student. Quite a few landlords got delisted before the word got around. The civil rights bill was passed soon after.

William_C_Diaz Duke Woolworth • 7 hours ago

I have a great deal of respect and gratitude for all the people of good conscience who push the rock of equality up the hill on intolerance, thank you.

Have a great day!

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/02/26/texas-police-defend-dui-arrest-of-black-man-who-blew-0-00-on-breathalyzer/


If I've said it once, I've said it 1,000 times: "The greatest gift that White Privilege gives to its beneficiaries...

Is the self-imposed right (for some) to the delusion that it doesn't really exist."


Like most things in life, self-awareness can show to us what the world is really like.

[riqster]

1. Truth spoken here. Off to the Greatest Page with you.

[1StrongBlackMan]

15. Greatest Page? An OP discussing W/P? ...

on DU? Originally posted to the G/D?

[riqster]

24. To the GP!

[gollygee]

2. Huge rec

Anyone who doesn't see it is IMO willfully ignorant. I've run red lights before. I get distracted easily. I've even run a red light in front of a police officer and worried that I would, for the first time ever in 30 years of bad driving, be pulled over for something. But no. Nobody bothers middle aged white women in minivans, no matter how poorly we drive.

And I've told the story of my husband speeding and getting pulled over and the police officer saying not to worry, he just wanted a better look at the car, right? That was when we were much younger, too. I wonder if a young black man speeding in an expensive car would have been treated the same? (rhetorical question btw)

[raven mad]

36. RE: running red lights/stop signs -

I've gotten away with it by being the "dumb chick" but I'm white.

I watched at a particular stop sign in our neighborhood, which isn't "white" at all, because so many folks ran it when school kids were waiting for the bus. One day it was a blatant "run it" by a white dude in a big pickup. The next guy through did what we call a "California stop" (ok, CA, I apologize, but that's what it's called here) and went through.

He got stopped. By the cop that watched the pickup just breeze through. Second guy was no threat at all to the kids. Second guy was Native Alaskan.

Tell me WGP (white guy privilege) doesn't work. Hah!

[1StrongBlackMan]

75. I take it ...

you disbelieve white privilege.

[cui bono]

87. Wow!!!

WTF was that??? (post you replied to)

That is one post I wish I had left hidden. Someone is a little upset by disagreement.

[redqueen]

3. Using privilege to improve the world.

In the early 60's, I did private checks for the student housing bureau at a large northern state university. If a minority was turned down for an apartment, I'd go to see if the listing was still available to me, a white student.

This is how allies with privilege can help - not by trying to prove said privilege doesn't exist, not by asking to be absolved of any responsibility for the unfair way society bestows privilege, or complaining about how unfair it is that they feel targeted in discussions of privilege.

[gollygee]

4. Yes and when we notice we're being treated preferentially

calling people on it. "She was here first" when someone else was obviously there before you. "I'm confused. You didn't ask me that." Say something! That's the answer, IMO. Just be aware with it, notice it, and say something when you see it. Exposing it to light is the only thing that will kill it IMO.

[1StrongBlackMan]

17. +1

[redqueen]

27. Exactly, say something. Call it out. Or better yet do something.

I will never forget this story because it makes it so plain. I'm sure this video has been posted here dozens of times by now. But one more won't hurt.

[Number23]

97. Yes. Thank you. The person quoted in that part of the OP made a huge fan of me

People GENUINELY interested in justice, in social equality and improvement will not negate the existence of a 200+ old institutionalized tradition because it makes them "feel funny."

You can tell so much about DU by the people that are so terribly put out by discussions of white privilege and racism. Even going to the point of posting stupid assed polls, claiming discussions of racism take people away from the "real" (aka important) discussion of class, or making mocking posts about naked people killing puppies in the street in order to derail the conversation.

[boston bean]

5. I'm disgusted that the denial of it

is accepted to be discussed here as if that opinion (the denial of privilege) deserves to be given equal respect.

No one should have to put up with that crap in the name of educating the ignorant.

[HappyMe]

6. I don't understand how any white person

(male or female) can deny that white privilege exists.

[heaven05]

7. 300 years and still counting

[BBR Esq]

8. Just last week I wore old clothes and shoes to work

because I didn't want to ruin my regular work clothes. We got off early and since I was in the neighborhood I decided to buy some work boots. The security guard, thinking I was homeless, kept moving to keep me in his sights. It made me very angry. I paid with my bank debit card and pointedly told him to have a good day when I left.

I can't fathom how angry it would have made me if he had done that because of my ethnicity.

[wryter2000]

39. Welcome to DU

[BBR Esq]

46. Thank you.

[Romulox]

9. "If I'm in a long checkout line, more often than not, another line will open to accommodate me."

Do people really believe this kind of thing?

[Harmony Blue]

10. Read this thread to find out

and continue to read this after you bookmark it.

[d_r]

12. yeah it happens to me all the time

middle age, slightly overweight white guy that dresses white collar/suburban.

Honestly, I've never thought about it. But I get impatient if it doesn't happen and wonder why they don't have more cashiers working.

[MineralMan]

14. Sure, because it happens.

It's happened to me a number of times. Why do you doubt it?

[eggplant]

16. Absolutely, it happens.

[MO_Moderate]

21. Where have you been?

We don't have to pay either.

[Bacchus4.0]

26. you mean not everyone gets their groceries free??!!

I am ashamed.

[MADem]

29. I still think the Eddie Murphy SNL skit on that business was the best ever.

Eddie Murphy was talking about "Two Americas" well before Jon Edwards...

Here's a link to the clip: http://www.snotr.com/video/422/Eddie_Murphy_goes_undercover


Five minutes, well worth your time if you haven't seen it...

[iframe src="http://www.snotr.com/embed/422" width="400" height="330" frameborder="0"][/iframe]

[tea and oranges]

40. Hilarious! NT

[Bacchus4.0]

25. never had that happen to me, but if they want to open another line

I'll happily accept.

[Nye Bevan]

33. The question is, are supermarket employees managing the checkouts specifically instructed

to try to open a new line when too many white people are waiting? Is this kind of racism an integral part of their training, passed down from the highest levels of the corporation? Or do these folks just tend to be racists, who unilaterally decide to favor white people and stick it to minorities? And what would be the business rationale for driving away certain racial groups from your customer base?

Or, dare I suggest, supermarkets tend to try to open new checkout lines whenever the lines get long, regardless of the race of the waiting customers, and white DUers who have experienced this have immediately and guiltily jumped to the conclusion that they are benefiting from "white privilege"?

[AverageJoe90]

38. Good point here.

[1StrongBlackMan]

76. And non-white DUers ...

that have waited, as no new lines were opened are just being too sensitive/playing the race card. Right?

[Nye Bevan]

78. So what is your theory for what is going on?

The assistant managers working for Stop and Shop in Connecticut who are in charge of allocating staff to checkout lines are racists who count the numbers of black and white customers who are waiting, and only open a new line when lots of whites are waiting? And is this semi-official (unwritten) Stop and Stop policy, or is it that they just happen to hire lots of racists?

[1StrongBlackMan]

81. No ...

just when white folks are required to wait, folks (Black and white) notice ... when non-white folks white; not so much.

[bettyellen]

99. my first job -in NYC- I was told I shld call out the code word "cappuchino" when any black customer

walked in. That was how the owner thought we would "discreetly" notify each other to swarm "them". Not only was he assuming black people were thieves, but also idiots. I was horrified, said nothing, and just could not do it. I lasted 2 1/2 days. That sucked.
I wish I was tougher back then and I told him off, but he could see it in my face. I was horrified.
So, sometimes the market works like that.

[cui bono]

89. It doesn't have to be a conscious thing or a rule passed down.

There are subconscious forms of racism. Some racism is ingrained from being barraged with racist angles in the media. Always hearing about black crimes, TV shows and movies having the criminals played by minorities and upstanding citizens played by whites. It can become ingrained without the person really even being aware of it. Same thing happens with sexism. Most movies only have a female to be the love interest. Women are objectified and airbrushed/photoshopped in advertising. The privileged group doesn't notice this stuff as much as the non-privileged because they don't get the negative end of it. So then people get influenced by the messages and even if it's not overtly stated racist rule or belief system it can come out in subtle, or not so subtle, ways.

Then when they are confronted with the claim of "white privilege" and they belong to that privileged group they don't get it. Especially if they aren't rich since they then compare themselves to TPTB and think they are nothing like that. But they don't even see how they are getting special treatment in all the little moments of their day, unnoticed by them, but noticed by those who are slighted.

Sorry, I don't feel like I stated my point very well. Hopefully you get the idea.

[Warren Stupidity]

115. I doubt it is explicit training.

And in many cases it is just coincidence. However, some people are invisible when they shouldn't be and spectacularly visible at other times, and that is just not a coincidence.

[7962]

57. Really. I need to go to different stores. Most of the other stuff, yes, I've seen.

[onpatrol98]

82. I'm not sure why it wouldn't be believable...

Many managers are in tune to the fact that some customers are a bit quicker to complain if they are not accommodated. If you think a particular type of customer is more likely to make a "stink" or call a manager, you make a bigger effort. It's an assumption made on the part of someone else. The recipient is often unaware of the benefit.

No one's trying to imply someone ran over and tried to shine shoes on the spot. But, rather had a heightened sense of awareness that getting that person taken care of was a higher priority. Some others...not so much. There are many types of privilege. To my mind, white privilege is only one. Social status carries a lot of privilege, also.

But, sometimes it's harder to assess someone's social status. Color is recognized immediately. Combine it with age, and I imagine you get a pretty potent combination.

Now, none of this assumes that white privilege or ANY privilege works in every situation. But, when it works, it's hard to ignore. Well, for many of us, it's hard to ignore.

In fact, this idea that white privilege does NOT exist among democrats is new to me. Privilege simply means that a group has a right or benefit that is given to some people and not to others. This used to be a basic understanding among liberals.

Now, it's almost like we're saying tiny green men were seen shopping at Costco...with discount cards. What's new about this concept?

[AgingAmerican]

113. Yeah, no shit

nt

[d_r]

11. I went to college in Alabama

in the late 80s/early 90s. I didn't consciously realize it at the time, but I had a lot of white privilege. It was also because I attended that college. Looking back, I know that there were times that cops assumed I/we were probably some big-shot's kids and treated us with kid gloves.

I also know that I will talk to a police officer in a confident, competent way based on my life experiences that someone with different life experiences would not be able to. I look them in them in the eyes as equals and talk with them as equals, and I know a lot of people can't do that.

[NewJeffCT]

13. I had two women that recently told me that I looked "trustworthy"

One was Asian (not my wife), and the other was Puerto Rican. Neither woman knows the other, but they're both family friends. But, I wondered if I looked "trustworthy" mostly because I'm a clean cut white guy with graying hair in my mid to late 40s, and I figured that was probably a good part of it. Somehow, I don't think I'd be labeled "trustworthy" so readily if I was black.

I'm sure looking trustworthy also comes into play for things like job interviews as well, though I can't recall a speeding or parking ticket in a long time for myself.

But, being somewhat impatient when waiting in lines, I could only wish that new checkout lanes would open up when I was in a long line. I always seem to be in the slow lane.

[treestar]

18. day to day real life incidents

make it more than just a theory .

Racists love to claim the reverse of course. I have an idiot uncle who is probably lying, but claims he went into a restaurant in a black neighborhood and was told his kind was not welcome there. Poor white guy!

[1StrongBlackMan]

77. No ...

it's probably true ... He just neglected to mention that he was drunk off his a$$ and sporting his new rebel flag tee shirt. (Not that it should matter!)

[treestar]

108. lol

He might have been. He lost all his guns though - they were stolen - poor thing! So no war between the states for him - he lived in SC until his putative girlfriend threw him out!

[Skittles]

107. when I arrived in Philadelphia for a TDY

Last edited Fri Feb 28, 2014, 06:04 PM - Edit history (1)

I rued my decision not to get a haircut before I flew there and immediately set foot from my hotel to find a hair shop........I stopped in at a salon - all the hairdressers were black gals.........and it seemed busy......I said, "I'm not sure if you can get to me but......" and one of them cut me off and angrily said, "WHY, you think we don't cut white hair?" Taken aback I said, "Uh no, I thought maybe I would need an appointment." She immediately softened and said, "Sure baby, yes we can cut your hair. Of course we'll cut your hair." Later she told me it was common for white gals to walk in and immediately walk out. Me, I know hairdressers learn to cut all kinds of hair. And I got a great haircut.

[treestar]

109. White hair

lol. The hair thing is an odd issue. Black people talk about offensive white people wanting to touch their hair - yet you don't see the opposite. I had a black roommate who told me of black people who thought white people could not change the part in their hair or it would hurt! She had a jar of something called "hair food."

[Skittles]

117. when some soldiers requested I send "black hair products"

I was completely at a loss and turned to a coworker for help.........she wrote me out a list of things I have never heard of

[LiberalAndProud]

19. Stop

using words we don't like.


jk

[hedgehog]

20. A side issue here - but some of these comments touch on something

I'm seeing more and more of - economic privilege. If you are perceived as a poor and/or uneducated white, you get treated differently, too. We put six kids through college, so we drive whatever old banger my husband can keep on the road. He tends to wear work clothes when he's on his own time -( usually the uniforms too worn out for work!) This is a semi-rural area with a lot of white people near the poverty line. I know that walking into stores , we get treated differently depending on how we're dressed. We also get treated differently by medical people once we establish that we've both been to college and that my husband is an engineer.

I've heard other white people complain about their kids getting hassled by the police because they're not members of the "respectable" families.

I'm kind of unusual because I know and interact with people from both sides of the tracks. Believe me, people from the right side are totally unaware of their privileges!

Also - this is NOT to downplay the problems people of color have. My Dad lives in a suburb with a lot of people of color who are educated (college professors, doctors, lawyers) and fairly well off. These people ( and their teenage sons!) still get stopped for DWB.

[SheilaT]

22. 65 year old white woman here

with silver gray hair. The rare times I am stopped for speeding or running a stop sign, I always get off with just a warning. Apparently I'm old enough that I look like Mom or Grandma, and what cop is going to write a ticket on Mom or Grandma?

Most recent incident I managed not to have either my proof of insurance or registration with me. Officer said not having either one was a towable offense, but simply wrote the ticket for lack of insurance, requiring me to show up at traffic court with it. Thanks to computers, he could check my car registration and know it was current, plus I had the year sticker on the license. Yes, it helps that I behave politely (and in this case had every single other proof of registration in the glove box going back the entire nine years I've owned the car) but I'm sure a young male, even a white one, wouldn't have gotten off as I did.

White privilege is real. White middle-age or senior privilege is equally real and even more powerful.

Added on edit: When I was much younger I discovered that if I wore good jewelry, which I had a small amount of, in a high-end store, I'd be treated vastly better than when I wore none, even if otherwise dressed the same.

[tblue37]

23. Some years ago a black former student if mine, Tony Sands, sued

a local grocery store called Dillon's (and won , I believe) because he and his young son were obnoxiously followed and suspiciously watched late at night when he stopped into the nearly empty store to buy breakfast cereal for the next morning. Tony said the suspicion was so blatant that his little boy noticed and was upset about it.

Tony was a local celebrity when he was on the KU football team because he accumulated a record number of rushing yards during his career as a running back. Now, I know NOTHING about football, so I don't even know what a running back is or what it means to rush yards, but even I was aware of Tony's celebrity status here in Lawrence, and his picture was often in the paper.

But in that store he was not a star player on the only really successful football team in all my decades here at KU. Nope. All they could see was a "suspicious" black man and his "suspicious" black child, who was, after all, a black man in training.

I am so glad he pushed back against those idiots!

[justgamma]

30. 63 year old, white woman here.

There used to be 2, 5 &10 cent stores in town. In one store, the clerks would follow everyone around the store with their arms crossed. Really uncomfortable. I wouldn't go in there.

It took me years before it dawned on me that that is the way non-whites probably feel most of the time.
It was an eye-opener for me.

[AverageJoe90]

74. I'm glad Mr. Sands was able to successfully fight that back.

What was done to him and his son was absolutely unacceptable. I hope he's doing well now, though.

[Gormy Cuss]

28. I've done Fair Housing research and

this from the OP:

In the early 60's, I did private checks for the student housing bureau at a large northern state university. If a minority was turned down for an apartment, I'd go to see if the listing was still available to me, a white student. Quite a few landlords got delisted before the word got around....

sounds like an informal version of the testing that we used to do. We would send matched candidates to answer rental ads ---same education level, job type and income, dressed similarly (either dressed down or dressed for a white collar job) with the only significant difference being their races. We were doing this in the 1980s and 1990s. Although it did get better over time it was still amazing how often the apartment had just been rented for the person of color but possibly for the white tester. The vast majority of landlords didn't engage in this behavior but still, it had been against the law for decades.

I also have worked on national assessments of Fair Housing Act enforcement (rental and sales) and saw the same thing -- most landlords and real estate agents know the law and try to honor it but there's still too many who don't.

[1StrongBlackMan]

79. Maybe we know one another ...

(or we know some of the same folks)

I worked in the Fair Housing field during the late '80s through the mid-90s.

[Gormy Cuss]

85. Maybe we do.

But I'm sure your experience tracks somewhat with what I wrote. Most landlords and real estate people tried to follow the law but there were still far too many who thought they could discriminate with abandon. I remember case files where landlords would say flat out that they would never rent to African-Americans, but that's not the term they used. It's as if they missed the message that the "N" word was never acceptable anymore. Made the job easy for the FH investigators.

[sufrommich]

31. I don't understand why it's so important

for some to deny privilege,but I continue to be amazed at how many need to cling to that denial.It's perplexing indeed.

[hfojvt]

50. I have the same problem

I don't understand why it's so important to assert privilege, and I continue to be amazed at how many need to cling to that assertion.

I think it is pretty obvious why people would deny it. Because they have lived their life - a life of hardship, a life of struggle, a life of lack. They can easily SEE and experience all the things they do NOT have. They don't have all that much money. Maybe they don't have a decent job. Maybe they don't have a decent place to live.

Somebody tells them they are privileged? Maybe they just think to themselves "that idiot does not know what he/she is talking about" or maybe they try to set the other person straight.

[1StrongBlackMan]

84. Sadly ...

You continue to point to your life of lacking is because of lack of whatever creates a life of plenty; but refuse to recognize that my life of lacking is because of a lack of whatever creates a life of plenty AND, as a preceding factor, the color of my skin.

My Black skin means that I have to prove that I am wealthy/worthy enough to receive your societal default treatment. Everything I accomplish is done so IN SPITE of my skin color ... which is not to say that what you accomplish is BECAUSE of your skin color, it's just you have/had one less hurdle.

Our assertion that there IS a white privilege is prompt by your refusal to acknowledge privilege ... even if doing so makes you feel bad about your life o lacking.

Now, granted, your recognition of that won't make you life of lacking any better; but your recognition of that might make my chances of a better life a little better, as you will help to remove my undeserved barrier.

And your helping me, doesn't hurt you ... unless you believe that us competing on a level field, somehow disadvantages you.

[hfojvt]

96. you assume right there that I have some sort of control

over the barriers that society creates.

But clearly I do not. My rejection of the concept of "white privilege" is NOT a finger in the dike holding back a flood of equality.

I have given my best effort and a few thousand dollars trying to help those in the bottom 40% and I have not accomplished diddly-squat.

And extra barriers is beside the point. You and I do not have the same "life of lacking". Not unless you are a 49 year old part-time janitor with a master's degree.

See, here's the hurdle analogy. Using the 2011 census of wealth. Here are 16.86 million white non-hispanic households with less than $5,000 in net worth. What a privileged group, according to this thread.

Here also are 3.24 million black households with over $100,000 in net worth. Part of an "oppressed group".

For some strange reason, I say that people with $100,000 in net worth have more privileges than people with less than $5,000 in net worth, even if one group has white skin and the other doesn't.

Now, those black people may have faced a whole bunch of extra hurdles to get where they are, hurdles the white people didn't have to face. I will concede that. I am not here to say that there is no racism in America. That would be ridiculous. However, the absence of hurdles does not make somebody privileged when the fact of the matter, the plain, simple, undeniable fact of the matter is, that they are LOSING the frigging race.

Winners simply shouldn't get to tell losers that they, the losers, are privileged.

There are, of course, lots of white people who do embrace the notion of white privilege. Even argue vociferously for it. I strongly suspect that many, if not most of them, are part of the 42.8 million white households who have more than $100,000 in net worth. Well, pretty clearly, THEY do have a fair amount of privilege.

But their privilege does not trickle down to those other white people. Those other white people who are just as white but don't have privileges. Don't actually have much of diddley squat.

[cui bono]

92. You're looking at this as individual people rather than a societal/systemic issue.

Of course there is white privilege when you look at society as a whole.

You cannot possibly deny that blacks are more likely to get pulled over than whites, especially when driving a nice car in an affluent neighborhood. Or that blacks get harassed by cops more often. Arrested more often. Convcted more often. And by more often I mean disproportionately. Even when whites are doing more drugs than blacks, more blacks get arrested for that crime.

Just because there is anecdotal evidence of some whites being poor or being arrested does not mean that they are not better off as an entire race in this society. Doing that is just like the climate change deniers talk about how there is a snow storm so of course there's not climate change issue. Or the handful of people whose insurance rates went up after ACA kicked in even though as a whole ACA helped a ton of people, and would have done more if the Republican governors hadn't declined federal assistance.

White privilege exists. As does male privilege. Any real progressive knows it. Unfortunately, DU is clearly not a progressive place.

[hfojvt]

100. ah, the "real progressives" eh?

And DU cannot be a progressive place because I, a democratic precinctman, am allowed to be here and disagree with the majority over what should be instead dogmatically accepted. Is that how you feel?

"Society as a whole" is nothing more than a collection of individuals. American society, as a whole, has a per capita GDP of $45,000.

For some reason, though, that fact does not make every American rich.

"Better off as an entire race", once again, does not make the 14.86 million whites with less than $5,000 in net worth suddenly better off than the 3 million blacks with over $100,000 in net worth. Even though they, as whites, should have white privilege.

That's not "anecdotal" evidence. It is statistical. The anecdotes just give more detail than statistics can.

And yes, low income whites are in fact, likely to get pulled over for "driving while poor".

And here, let me link to Somerby who can perhaps explain more clearly why "Blacks being pulled over more than whites" does NOT translate into 'privilege' for whites. http://dailyhowler.blogspot.com/2013/04/red-and-blue-with-race-all-over-sirotas.html

[cui bono]

112. I don't care if you are a democratic precinctperson or not.

And btw... since when are all Democrats progressives? As one can easily see, there are not very many elected progressive Dems. So that doesn't add to your credibility at all.

There is a difference between institutionalized discrimination and individuals. Saying that society as a whole is merely a collection of individuals doesn't mean anything. It's not just sticking things together, it's woven into the fabric of society. I do think you don't understand this because you argued against the objectification of women existing as well.

You are using something unrelated to try to prove that blacks don't have it worse in the US than whites do. You are completely ignoring institutionalized racism. You can't possibly not know that blacks are treated worse than whites as a whole in this country. To ignore that and argue against white privilege is simply denial. If you believe that it doesn't exist then you just don't want to see the facts.

Btw... I went to that link and scanned through the beginning of that blog post and didn't get to anything that was relevant to our discussion so if you want to use it to support your point you should post the points from it. It kind of rambles.

[hfojvt]

114. again, people do NOT live "as a whole"

Some black people are living right now in nice warm houses, eating fine meals and enjoying the hell out of life, even some (gasp) black females.

Meanwhile, some white people are on the streets begging for their next meal, generally getting the crap beaten out of them by life.

But what a privilege that is, to get the crap beaten out of you AND have white skin and a Y chromosome.

And as for credibility. It's Democratic Underground, not Progressive Underground, and I am to the left of Hillary on the Iraq war and on taxes. Yet, shockingly enough, there have even been Hillary supporters on this board.

But okay, I guess a real progressive is supposed to believe Michael Jordan is oppressed and a homeless white guy is privileged.

[CreekDog]

116. yes, people live surrounded by assholes

[cui bono]

118. Again, this is NOT about individual people.

You just don't get it.

Institutional racism. It's not just for slavery any more.

Institutional racism. Not your mother's racism.


Your last sentence is a pathetic attempt at ridiculing a fact and really makes you look exactly like a climate change denier. That's exactly how Fox News spoke about there being snow storms.

[Butterbean]

32. I just watched a documentary and learned about Sundown Towns

and The Green Book for the first time. We need to learn our sad history to keep from repeating it and to fix what's wrong now, y'all. I consider myself educated, but I'm also white, so of course I'd never learned about Sundown Towns or The Green Book, why would I have a need to? Sad that such things exist. Let your mind wander a little and imagine trying to plan a road trip as a black family back in the day, when you really truly needed the Green Book to protect your life and the life of your family.

It makes me queasy.

[Dustlawyer]

34. I live across the river from a former "Sundown" town. The whole town was white.

At one point, the Mayor was also the Grand Dragon of his local KKK group and he marched in the parade next to his hooded clansmen brothers (1960's). My friend and his family grew up there as the only minorities (100% American Indian). They had crosses burned in the yard and fights at school, but eventually the kids causing all of their problems became their friends. The town now has a few minorities living there and the KKK has gone underground, but is still around to a lesser extent.

[Butterbean]

70. I find it miraculous that they survived. After watching that documentary

I wouldn't want anyone I loved or cared about to step even one toe inside a sundown town or anywhere near one. Scary scary shit.

[AverageJoe90]

73. Me neither.

Sundown towns were indeed scary places to be if you weren't a white fella. And it's still mind-boggling just how far they spread out. Even California had a fair number at one point.

[cui bono]

93. What's the name of that doc? n/t

[Butterbean]

110. Link follows in post

http://press.discovery.com/us/id/programs/injustice-files-sundown-towns/

The Injustice Files: Sundown Towns

It focused on the murder of Carol Jenkins, Sundown Towns, and the use/need for the Green Book.

[cui bono]

111. Thanks!

[Enthusiast]

35. K&R! This post should have hundreds of recommendations!

[AverageJoe90]

37. I myself am perfectly aware of the realities of societal inequity.....

But I no longer subscribe to the "white privilege" theory.....I did at one point before I joined this site but I've matured and gained a better understanding of the world(and more self-awareness, too) since then.

You don't need to believe in "white privilege" to be aware of the realities around us.....just saying.....

[hfojvt]

45. y-y-y-you-you

are a backslider!!!

STONE HIM!!!

[AverageJoe90]

48. Heh heh, LOL.

In all honesty, though, I don't think many on DU who do subscribe to WP theory would necessarily go as far as to accuse me of being a closeted Republican or a liar(or both), but there may possibly be a few trolls lurking in the background, waiting to pounce, maybe. It does happen, you know.

[kwassa]

53. You get the honor of throwing the first stone.

[hfojvt]

55. I feel so all alone

[KamaAina]

42. Silly Scorpio. There is no such thing as white privilege.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024544941

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024567537

(The OP has apparently not spent a great deal of time, if any, in the U.S. )

[myrna minx]

43. K&R n/t

[hfojvt]

44. so we agree then

that basically white privilege is not worth a bucket of spit.

I mean, after all IF "The greatest gift that White Privilege gives to its beneficiaries...

Is the self-imposed right (for some) to the delusion that it doesn't really exist."

I mean, come on, certainly anyone alive would trade THAT "privilege" for $1,000. Just have everybody who has recced this post send me a mere $13 and I will start swearing up and down, just like the cowardly lion "I do believe in white privilege, I do believe in white privilege, I do believe in white privilege. I do, I do, I do believe in white privilege."

I mean, just damn, what a benefit it is, when the greatest benefit in the package is being able to believe that the benefit does not exist.

[tea and oranges]

47. It is the ultimate convenience

For the privileged to not acknowledge their privilege. If they did, something would have to change.

Like their own attitudes & behaviors.

Impossible to rail against those less fortunate if you recognize the invisible help you've become accustomed to is the reason for your "good luck".

Hard to brag about your own good fortune if you understand it comes from being a middle-class white man & that there are many women & minorities at least as talented as you are.

Not so easy to hate on poor people when you realize that w/o the money your parents gave you, you'd be in much the same position.

A real stretch to feel superior to minorities if you recognize institutionalized racism.

On & on.

[AverageJoe90]

49. What's your answer about those of us who used to believe in "White Privilege" theory.......

but don't anymore? No snark here, btw, that's a honest question.

[tea and oranges]

56. I'm uncertain

what you're asking AverageJoe90. Are you saying you no longer believe in white privilege but once did? Or asking about others who experienced that turn-about?

My reply to both would be that the truth was too uncomfortable to live w/ on a daily basis, so a retreat to a more familiar, thus comforting lie was navigated.

But I'd like to hear what you have to say. Seriously.

[AverageJoe90]

65. .....

Are you saying you no longer believe in white privilege but once did? Or asking about others who experienced that turn-about?

Both, actually.

But I'd like to hear what you have to say. Seriously.

As I pointed out, in my case, it had to do with the fact that I matured over time and gained a far more nuanced understanding of reality. I realized that there truly is far more to the problems faced by disadvantaged ethnic groups than just racism; cultural prejudices(which often does intersect with racism, but not always), religious issues, and yes, classism, all have a role amongst other things. I also came to understand that not every white person benefits, even indirectly, from racism, and that some whites, even some of those who might directly benefit(and there certainly are a few), can also themselves actually harmed by it in other ways(i.e. a lot of misogynistic myths and social control methods tied into racism and other ethnocultural-based prejudices.) And that individual People of Color, such as Clarence Thomas and Herman Cain, can reap personal benefits from turning against their fellows and working with the .01%, even if that means perpetuating the problem. And plenty of other things

Really, in all honesty, I'm not always that good at explaining myself unless I've had lots of practice beforehand, but this may hopefully give you a little insight as to why I've changed my mind.

[tea and oranges]

71. I'm not sure we disagree

A more nuanced approach & understanding the background dynamics & ramifications is certainly to your credit, AverageJoe90. Yes, there are many configurations that complicate the lives of minorities. Yes, tokens like the repulsive Clarence Thomas & Herman Cain make bank by insisting that they made it on their own, repeating the conserva-myth that we're post-racial (whatever that means). Yes, class, culture, & gender have much to do w/ discrimination.

I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about white people & their attitudes. I'm talking about the boss' son at my last place of exploitment talking (loudly) about how he doesn't understand minorities not having jobs, he's always had one. True. All of them handed to him by his white daddy, owner of the company.

I'm talking about the outrageous stories of police brutality against minorities, yet hearing white people say, "They must've deserved it."

I could give you dozens of examples, but I'm sure you know what I mean. It's the refusal to recognize the leg-up, the protections, the advantages anyone w/ white skin has, no matter their place in the social scale. If each & every white person doesn't benefit, white people as a whole do. And that's to the detriment of other people w/ more melanin.

[7962]

58. I believe its more about class now than race. Remember the story about the minister..

..who dressed up like he was homeless one day to see how his "flock" would treat him. And a post above talking about being followed because he was dressed a little shabby

[AverageJoe90]

66. I think that is definitely true to some extent.

Of course, I think most people on here do understand that race still plays a role in social problems, especially in certain areas of the country.....but also, we can try to point out that things have actually become more complicated overall as well.

[El_Johns]

83. Yes, because it's all about individual attitudes and behaviors.

[tea and oranges]

88. Yes, but within the context

of individual's reactions or, as importantly, non-reactions to institutionalized racism.

A real horror show it was there in the south, folks, that intensified during the civil rights movement. I was a child watching the war on nightly news while my mother wept & my father paced.

Then, in the Johnson years, things began to look better on the frontiers of bigotry for black people, there was legislation. An act. The Civil Rights Act.

But Ron Reagan, overlord of mean people, started lifting up rocks & they crawled out. Reagan w/ his LIES about welfare queens. Women, black women. Nice. It became part of sound bite history, everyone's heard of welfare queens (never mind that WalMart takes the prize in that category) & everyone knows that means black women.

Unless you stamp on that shit, it grows. OK, sure, things have improved in many ways for minorities, but the backlash is all the way ugly pissed off. Dangerously pissed off. Black people keep getting killed by crackers. Hell, there's a license to kill black people called Stand Your White Ground.

Sorry, I do get worked up.

We can continue to ignore race as one of, if not our main national issue/s; i.e. exert white privilege or we can deal w/ it.

[El_Johns]

90. Yes, but notice how the acts of official power created both those realities.

By making civil rights the law of the land, and enforcing it, and promulgating that POV in the media, social practices changed, and in consequence fundamental attitudes changed. I was also alive and aware during the civil rights era and I know what a huge difference there was in American life just between 1960 and 1970.

Reagan began to create a space for socially acceptable racism, and that space expanded *because it was encouraged by power*. And again, as a consequence, practices that weren't formerly socially acceptable became so.

Why are we even discussing an abominations like "Stand your ground" in public? Was there some mass upswelling of desire from the general public for such laws? NO. They were promoted and publicized by people in power, for reasons of politics and power, some of which ordinary people will never even know or understand.

The majority of people typically have no reaction to the acts of power unless they're directly affected. Even then, it's usually only to complain -- unless a vehicle is provided for their dissent. "Acknowledging white privilege" is not a vehicle.

[tea and oranges]

103. White privilege is air for white America. Surrounded by it, it becomes invisible.

ALEC promulgated stand your ground laws, but crackers have taken advantage of them.

[Hamlette]

51. rich white privilege to boot!

I owned an old beater car for years and park in a large parking lot. At quitting time there is a rush to the exits and you have to wait your turn.

I was given (hand me down from my husband) an Audi and the seas parted. People laid out the red carpet and I no longer had to wait to get out of the parking lot. I was let out by everyone.

It happens in other traffic situations as well, people let you in, wait for you to pass, turn whatever.

I remember how pissed I was. If I could afford an Audi, I should wait LONGER. It's the commie in me.

[villager]

52. There's also a class angle: When I was driving a more beat-up car, I got stopped by the LAPD much

...more frequently.

A couple of times this was with my younger son in tow, who used to think I was overreacting in my skepticism of cops.

Now, being a middle aged white dude (and with son in tow, for a couple of those stops), it's true that once the "lower class" car was stopped, and I turned out to be, in fact, a white guy behind the wheel -- well, sometimes there'd be a warning, sometimes a fixit ticket.

But not always. Still, once my car was "targeted," I'm sure it helped that the demography of the driver (me) defied their expectations.

[justabob]

60. it is true

Driving while poor is definitely a category... I think race still trumps class, but only just. Poor people in general are unacceptable, regardless of color. Having said that, the poor white guy is going to fare a lot better in general than the poor any-other-color guy.

[villager]

61. It's like two overlapping targeted demographics. When I vibed "poor," I was stopped more often.

And while it's true each of those encounters was a hassle in its own right, who knows how they might have turned out with the "complexion complex" factored in?

[Bonx]

67. Did you ever smash bottles on their cruiser & curse at them while doing donuts & firing handguns ?

And the cops just drove away in fear ?

These guys do:

This is insane.

[JDPriestly]

54. Yes. Thanks for these posts that make us think.

[noiretextatique]

59. in another thread

Someone is working very hard claiming that DWB incident...the latest one, that is...has nothing to do with race. Denial, and insisting that only you get to decide what is and is not racism, are key benefits of prvilege. After several hundred years of overt racism, half the country prefers to pretend it never a problem, and most certainly not a problem now.

[Solly Mack]

62. K&R

[MellowDem]

63. That's the gift all privilege gives to everyone... nt

[HipChick]

64. K&R

[LostOne4Ever]

68. K&R

[El_Johns]

72. "If I'm in a long checkout line, more often than not, another line will open to accommodate me." lol

Where in the heck does he live?

[Nye Bevan]

80. Maybe he is whiter than you are (nt)

[Nanjing to Seoul]

86. Rudyard Kipling would be proud. White Man's Burden and White Privilege are alive and well

You want a lesson, white people, about discrimination. Move to an Asian nation like I did. Then watch Taxis do to you what taxis in the US do to black people and try not to lose your mind.

[El_Johns]

91. Why does Japanese cabbies refusing to pick up white people show us what white privilege is? If

anything it shows the opposite -- that privilege is situational in the broad sense.

[Nanjing to Seoul]

101. Umm. . .not talking Japan. I don't live in Japan

[El_Johns]

102. Sorry. For some reason I thought you did. Korean cabbies then.

[Nanjing to Seoul]

104. I live in China. . .and it's the same in Korea when I lived there too

What my point was is those who do not think white privilege or white man's burden exists need to come to Asia and live as an immigrant or a minority here.

Then their worldview will change.

[El_Johns]

105. The example you gave was -- I thought -- that cabbies in Asia won't pick up whites in the same way

that cabbies in the US won't pick up blacks.

In which case the white person in Asia experiences what the black person in the US does.

This may make the white person in Asia understand the experience of a black person in the US better, but only because he's lost his 'white privilege'.

Which seems to me to point to something different.

[daybranch]

94. happens to Asians too

Several years ago when my wife and I were dating, (she is Asian, I am white) we went to a grocery store chain. My wife went inside the store to purchase meat at the meat counter. After many minutes, she returned to our car with tears in her eyes. She did not want to tell me but eventually said that they kept serving everyone else but her even though everyone took a number. I then went into the store, forcing others out of the way to the counter. I told the butcher or whoever he was, that I wanted 5 pounds of pork chops, center cut. He quickly filled my order. I then took the packagr, opened it and dumped the chops on the floor. I looked him in the eye and told him , he had refused to my wife because she was Asian and the next time I would get really angry. The point of the story is that we men should stand up for our women , our children or any other victims of discrimination due to race, sex, sexual orientation, age or any other justification found to abuse others. Today we have voting restrictions aimed at minorities and abortion restrictions aimed at our women, food stamp cuts aimed at children, medicare cuts aimed at the old. We men must stand up. We have the strength to help and we need to do it for those we love and for those Jesus said to love.

[Number23]

95. Oh, how I love love Love this OP!

[Warren DeMontague]

98. Dave Matthews Band is the EPITOME of White Privilege.

Oh, sorry, you said "DWB".

[xfundy]

106. I dated/went out with a man of color a few times

And absolutely detected a different vibe, confirmed by eyes, stance and attitude, from admittance people I'd encountered before.

Bullshit discrimination definitely still exists. Thankfully it's happening less than before, but it still exists, and claiming it doesn't is lying or refusing to see reality.

Those who refuse to see that it exists should try going out with a black friend to a place they've been welcomed before.