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Mon Feb 24, 2014, 09:50 PM

It is not about the swimsuit issue it is about basic respect for women

I am a man and I must admit that I really don't understand women very well. I hear a lot of men say they understand women, but the reality is that none of us really understand women because none of us have ever walked a day in their shoes.

When I first saw the swimsuit issue posted here I was not upset about it at all, in fact I fully admit I found the women on the cover attractive. I did not necessarily think it belonged in GD, but I was certainly not bothered by it. I looked at it found it attractive, but still had to shake my head a bit at the oogling over it downthread. I was not upset about about the image at all, these sorts of images are everywhere and I did not think much of it.

But then something happened; I saw women trying to express their views on the photo and I saw the way they were treated for expressing those views. I may not understand women, but I am not completely ignorant either, I know that this country does have an ugly history of misogyny and I saw far too many misogynistic comments posted in response to the swimsuit photo.

I may not understand women and it is difficult to put myself in their shoes. It is difficult for me to imagine that my Great Grandmother would not have even been legally able to vote when she turned of age. I can not imagine what it would be like to be a women with an unwanted pregnancy in the 1950's where the only option for an abortion was a guy with a coat hanger in a back alley. I can not imagine what it would be like to be a housewife living with an abusive husband who controlled her with violence. I can not understand any of this, all I can understand is what it is like to be a man.

As much as some people try to tell me that misandry is just as big of a problem as misogyny, I am looking over my entire life and I just can't think of a time that I faced any sort of oppression because I am male. I may have been called a gendered insult like "Dick" before, but I can't say it really damaged me in any way. I suspect the women who had "Bitch!!!" screamed at her right before she was beaten and raped suffered far worse than I did when I was called a dick.

My fellow men, we may not understand women but we need to try harder to do so. We need to understand that a number of the women objecting to these photos being posted are likely rape victims. I don't know which DUers are victims of rape, I don't know which ones have a mother or daughter who was raped, but I do know that they are here because the stats show us just how many women have been victims of sexual assault. Victims of sexual violence are a part of our community and we need to respect them.

We need to understand that someone who was the victim of a sexual assault may have a very different reaction to a sexualized photo than you or I, they may have been raped by someone who shoved pictures like that in their face. Now you may say that the picture did not cause the rape, and maybe you are right but that does not mean that the woman does not have a valid reason to be seriously bothered by the image.

You may try and dismiss this as a "personal issue", but the fact is when millions of rape victims across the nation have these "personal issues" it is not really a personal issue it is an issue with our society.

If you want to go look at the swimsuit issue go ahead, but when you do so do it in a way that is respectful to others. If others tell you they don't want to see it there is absolutely no reason to show it to them, be respectful of others and recognize that women may have valid reasons for being upset that us men are really unable to fully comprehend.

Do what you want in the privacy of your home, but let's have some basic respect for the women of this site.

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Reply It is not about the swimsuit issue it is about basic respect for women (Original post)
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Response to Bjorn Against (Original post)

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 09:53 PM

1. Thank you. I appreciate this OP very much.

Thanks.

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Response to yardwork (Reply #1)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 08:01 AM

187. Hi yardwork!

It's good to see you! I hope you're well.

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Response to Bjorn Against (Original post)

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 09:55 PM

2. Thank you.

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Response to Bjorn Against (Original post)

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 09:56 PM

3. DU Rec

thank you

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Response to Bjorn Against (Original post)

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 10:06 PM

4. thank you. (nt)

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Response to Bjorn Against (Original post)

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 10:10 PM

5. I urge you to recall that it was posted by a woman.

Enough with the implications that it was done by some kind of misogynistic man.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #5)

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 10:12 PM

7. +1000. Odd this little fact keeps being overlooked or unmentioned

 

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Response to quinnox (Reply #7)

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 11:40 PM

86. ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024548058#post30
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024528019#post87
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024530323#post69
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024548058#post5

I am sure it was posted a few more times than this quick search. Not to mention the multiple times the person who posted it bragged and took "full responsibility" for it. Now please tell the world what the fuck it matters who posted it?

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Response to Kali (Reply #86)

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 11:46 PM

91. It matters very much, because we keep having a few duers imply it was all the men's fault

 

that kicked this off by posting that OP of the swimsuit issue with the bikini pics. There was another recent thread too, that was full of old time bikini pics and magazine covers posted by "Tiyee" or something like that, and I think they also are maybe a woman. At least that is my impression.

But I'm not sure, so I didn't mention that before.

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Response to quinnox (Reply #91)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 12:01 AM

100. so if some asshole of any group does something that is offensive to a large number people,

even (or maybe especially) to that same group that the offender belongs to, that somehow makes it all ok?

you see, it does NOT matter who posted it. It matters that it was posted to stir shit, and it matters that this is primarily a political discussion forum, that tries to be INCLUSIVE and PROGRESSIVE, not a man-cave in somebody's carport.





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Response to Kali (Reply #100)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 12:06 AM

104. No, it doesn't make it ok. But it does make those who are implying this is all the work of

 

"misogynist men", to be false.

Also, I have seen several woman feminists, who I personally have a lot of respect for, disagree with some of the "certain group" ones, who tend to be very militant in their views.

What I am saying here is I think it is very unfair and manipulative for a small sub group to keep pretending that they speak for all the women and all the feminists on DU, when time and time again, I have seen that is clearly NOT the case.

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Response to Kali (Reply #100)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 12:06 AM

105. Carport?

I always picture a bad garage conversion.

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Response to DURHAM D (Reply #105)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 12:19 AM

117. true, a carport doesn't even have 4 walls

to pin up the "art"

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Response to DURHAM D (Reply #105)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 01:37 PM

272. and I always picture a basement ... lol ...

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Response to DURHAM D (Reply #105)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 01:46 PM

275. Men don't deserve a "cave" per se... maybe just a roof. Maybe.

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Response to Kali (Reply #100)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 06:07 AM

169. It means all the men who have insisted that the views

of the hundreds of DUers who find such threads offensive are entirely insignificant have cover because women are responsible for all that ails the world. It has absolutely nothing to do with their repeated scoffing at women's concerns, repeated claims that what we want is meaningless, and their ahistorical blathering that objectification has always existed and always will, and that women rather than men are responsible for it because some of us wear make-up and heels.

The excuses have changed rapidly. First it was objectification doesn't exist. A few fringe feminists imagined the whole thing and maligned DUers firmly committed to equality. Now that they found out hundreds of members object to their crap, they've moved on to new excuses. It's always been that way, and objectification is the fault of women. White Knighting keeps women dependent and furthers oppression. So they throw their sacrificial lamb under the bus. The key point is under no circumstances will they assume any responsibility for their own posts or acknowledge that anyone but themselves is worth listening to.

It's a transparent game that the vast majority of DUers are seeing straight through. Bonobo even tried to claim he didn't even know she posted in the men's group, despite the fact he had posted a thread there calling out TA for offending her. My guess is someone, or a few someones, put her up to posting that thread. Now that it's clear that people are offended, they throw her under the bus.

You see, for many of us this is about issues of equality and diversity. The gender of the poster of that first thread is less important than the overall sexism and misogyny that has become obviously to virtually everyone on this site. Yet for some, all that matters is blaming women and absolving men of any responsibility because ultimately all they have ever cared about is their own privilege.

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Response to Kali (Reply #100)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 06:38 AM

171. "Asshole"

That's some nice, respectful discussion you are conducting there.

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Response to My Good Babushka (Reply #171)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 10:24 AM

213. who am I disrespecting?

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Response to Kali (Reply #213)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 03:53 PM

326. It sounds like you were calling the woman who posted the SI pics an "asshole"

...since that was the topic of the discussion.

You have every right to disagree with someone, but the "asshole" bit seems a touch disrespectful.

On the other hand, I personally am not so thin skinned, so it doesn't really bother me. I'm just answering your question.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

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Response to quinnox (Reply #91)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 05:50 AM

168. Are you going to claim you haven't posted in defense of objectification?

Last edited Tue Feb 25, 2014, 06:22 AM - Edit history (1)

Are you going to claim we imagined that thread of yours, the recs on the sexist threads, and repeated posts defending those threads? No woman is responsible for your posts. You are. I get there is this little game on, but you are sadly mistaken if you don't think most people see right through it. The charade is up.

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Response to quinnox (Reply #91)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 07:17 AM

175. I believe the point of the OP was

about how the women who expressed their feelings regarding the images were treated.

So it wasn't really about the original post as much as it was about the treatment of women who responded to the original post.

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Response to Kali (Reply #86)

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 11:49 PM

92. On phone so couldn't check all links but

I looked through 2 of your 4 links and couldn't see the offending photo.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #92)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 12:05 AM

103. I wasn't posting any offending photo.

I posted a few easy-to-find examples of but, but, but...it was a woman that posted it.

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Response to Kali (Reply #103)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 12:34 AM

125. Oh I see...

But I don't see the point.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #125)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 12:46 AM

134. the point

is I was replying to quinvox.

you keep beating that dead horse, as I pointed out last night and as you did again tonight, quinnox made the comment that it was "Odd this little fact keeps being overlooked or unmentioned" so I attempted to correct the facts and again point out that it matters not a single tiny bit who posted the stupid magazine cover.

the repeated attempts to imply that it is somehow a significant fact that it was a woman who posted it is kind of pathetic, really.

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Response to Kali (Reply #86)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 11:44 AM

240. I don't recall 1/100th of this amount of disdain for the

poster of those huge (including full-frontal) naked men pictures posted in GD.

Does it all depend on who posts what?

Caution: GRAPHIC male nudity.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022584574

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Response to polly7 (Reply #240)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 12:12 PM

247. heh

I think seabeyond gets more than her share of disdain around here

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Response to Kali (Reply #247)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 12:17 PM

250. Odd there wasn't day after day of outraged posts over those pictures

by people offended at seeing nudity. Seems a bit unfair to throw someone to the sharks for doing far less than what's been done with absolutely no criticism for it.









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Response to polly7 (Reply #250)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 12:27 PM

253. well I see you are taking the opportunity to do so now

better late than never, I guess

(you do realize most everybody is fine with nudity, right? for me the issue is whether DU GD is the appropriate place to post sexual images that objectify women)

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Response to Kali (Reply #253)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 12:29 PM

254. Only because I'm sick and tired of seeing one person painted as

a horrible, nasty person for doing far less than has been done and accepted here before - in GD.

Sorry if you have a problem with that. I don't.

Apparently, everyone is not fine with nudity. As the thousands of outraged posts have shown.

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Response to polly7 (Reply #240)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 12:13 PM

248. You are very committed to taking things out of context

Just a quick look at the comments by the poster of that thread and you see the context she provided. It's ridiculous that you keep taking things out of context and pretend that no one notices.

FAIL.

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Response to R B Garr (Reply #248)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 12:19 PM

251. And you are very committed to talking shit about people and things you

Last edited Tue Feb 25, 2014, 12:49 PM - Edit history (1)

know nothing about.

There has been thread after thread of people stating they were insulted simply by having nudity placed in GD.

Why the double standard?

FAIL.

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Response to polly7 (Reply #251)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 12:49 PM

258. The posts leading back to your post are about a female posting the SI pictures

You threw the nudity in as a way to bash seabeyond, and a typicial Fox News tactic to spin this into a poster-bashing session and to personalize it even more which is obviously where you like discussions to be -- bashing posters so you can flame them and get posts hidden. Very transparent. Very.

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Response to R B Garr (Reply #258)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 12:52 PM

260. I'm not 'bashing' anyone.

I'm asking about a double standard, and I don't give a shit who posted what ... I remembered those photos and really can't grasp the hypocrisy of burning someone at the stake for something that was accepted here without even a smidgen of outrage.

You know what's transparent? Your hypocrisy.

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Response to polly7 (Reply #260)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 01:34 PM

270. I wouldn't trust your interpretations of double standards and hypocrisy

based on what I've seen you post that is taken out of context, and usually to continue old flames that were probably taken out of context then, as well. Just like I wouldn't trust Fox News to give me a fair and balanced story.

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Response to R B Garr (Reply #270)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 01:37 PM

271. I suggest you check out a mirror.

What's taken out of context? Posting nudity for a specific reaction? Those male photos were posted as payback for the 'horrifically insulting and degrading FEMEN pictures!' posted as part of the reporting of their activities.

Some here seem to have a (conveniently) short memory when it comes to things like this .... depending upon who it is they feel needs to be bullied and demonized until they're run off or banned.

Like I said ....... it smells bad. Really bad.

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Response to polly7 (Reply #271)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 01:51 PM

280. Now you're equating FEMEN with Sports Illustrated Swimsuit addition pictures?

Another fail.

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Response to R B Garr (Reply #280)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 01:53 PM

281. No.

I'm equating a picture of three women on a beach with the posting of full-frontal nude pictures of males to get even for those awful, disgusting FEMEN women pictures.

Try to keep up.

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Response to polly7 (Reply #281)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 02:18 PM

295. No. You are taking things out of context deliberately to push your own agenda.

What the subtext is really about are the motives and reasons for posting the pictures which you clearly misrepresented. Now it's just pictures of three women on a beach? You're a hoot.

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Response to R B Garr (Reply #295)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 02:22 PM

298. LOL.

Try harder.

The hypocrisy of defending one whole set of pictures obviously meant to inflame and insult while watching another poster being attacked and abused like she's just committed the worst sin in the world for posting a cover of a magazine - for WHATEVER reason, is lost on those with the agenda.

You're not a hoot.

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Response to polly7 (Reply #298)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 03:53 PM

327. Context, polly. Get some. This is your little corner of Fox News/Benghazi

This is exactly like Fox News propaganda where you repeat talking points in the hopes they stick. You are very transparent.



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Response to R B Garr (Reply #327)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 03:58 PM

330. I did point out the context.

You're defending the usage of extremely graphic pics in GD meant to insult a whole group of people here simply because someone was upset at the FEMEN women being shown as part of the that coverage. One woman is being skewered for something far, far less offensive than another was cheered on for. Doesn't that bother you at all? It does, me.

What is propaganda about this? Did you see the thread? There wasn't a single objection to the nudity, that I can remember.

(GRAPHIC nudity) http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022584574

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Response to polly7 (Reply #330)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 04:05 PM

332. The two are not equal, polly. You are very transparent. Have you even read this OP?

Why don't you respond to that.

You are just trying to get people to talk about individual posters here so you can bring personalities into it to try to get posts hidden. What I have seen of the poster who posted the SI pictures is that she is an active member of the Men's Group and posts derogatory comments about other women often, including me when I reminded her that she did not provide any commentary or comments to her SI pictures, yet she was trying to take credit for those who did contribute actual dialogue. She insinuated I was a man-hater, so I guess in her mind, there is competition for men here. She can have the men. I'll stick with the issues that affect me and that I am interested in.

I'm not interested in your continued misrepresentations of events.


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Response to R B Garr (Reply #332)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 04:11 PM

337. Oh, you're so right. They're definitely not equal.

Thanks for admitting that.

I'm not 'trying' for anything. (Is that why you post here?) I stated to one poster that I respect VERY much that I think it's heartless to treat one woman a certain way, with all the horrible things that have been said about her, while ignoring that an even more egregious (for those opposed to nudity) post was pretty much taken in stride, with no one demonized, called to be banned, burned at the stake, called pathetic names, etc. etc.

No, Riff doesn't post derogatory comments about others without provocation (and we all respond to that) and there are some of us who find more equality and empathy, compassion, desire for fair and equal treatment by that group of people you and yours try to demonize day after day than the one that bullies other women and then dares assume they speak for all of us.

I'm not interested in your re-construction of history.

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Response to polly7 (Reply #337)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 04:19 PM

340. This is exactly how you wanted this to go. Now you're back to bashing posters

which is where you wanted this to be in the first place so you can escalate into getting posts hidden.

You are very transparent, polly.

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Response to R B Garr (Reply #340)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 04:27 PM

342. I have no interest in getting anyone's posts hidden.

It's a shame you don't understand that the hurtful treatment for one shouldn't have reached the point it did, based on previous GD posts.

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Response to R B Garr (Reply #332)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 06:14 PM

364. I actually agree with you here...

Last edited Tue Feb 25, 2014, 06:47 PM - Edit history (1)

The two are not equal, polly



One thread was posted without 'outward' ulterior motives. The SI thread wasn't posted out of spitefulness. Yet the person that posted the OP has been under fire ever since. It shouldn't matter that she posts in the Men's group. Are the men bad people? Why would that be a mark against someone?

The other thread was posted specifically to get a reaction--it was a 'take that'--clearly written in the OP of that thread. It was posted out of spitefulness.

The same people that had issues with the first thread, didn't seem to care that the latter was posted.

Those same people are constantly talking about this being a progressive board, equality, and respect for others. How does that happen when you turn a blind eye to one of these threads but not the other. How is that not the height of hypocrisy? How is that respect? How is that equality?

I had no problem with either thread. Except the hypocrisy between how each OP was treated.

Maybe the SI thread should have been in the Sports group or the lounge, not GD; that's an issue for the hosts.

So, yeah, I agree, they're not equal. One was out of spite the other (as far as I know) was not.

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Response to one_voice (Reply #364)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 06:22 PM

365. Thank you!

It's really hard for me to sit back and watch someone be publicly shamed and insulted .... I know many are averse to any nudity in GD and I understand that, but what one poster has been subjected to is so over the top, it's bizarre. Words DO matter, and they hurt ... sometimes more than anyone but the person on the receiving end can understand.

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Response to one_voice (Reply #364)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 12:53 AM

473. Thanks for agreeing they aren't equal. We disagree as to the reasons why they don't equate.

The SI issue was posted out of spite and as a way to whip up old flame wars as evidenced by those on this thread who have not even bothered addressing the OP, but have just ground their own axes, which seems to happen from thread to thread to thread over and over.

You might want to read the OP and comment on it. It's really a shame that meaningless unrelated conversations such as this are allowed to stay, and I regret if I was a part of it by pointing out polly's lack of context when she started posting and basically spamming this thread about old flame wars.

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Response to R B Garr (Reply #473)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 06:38 AM

487. And here you go again.

I provided context - the hypocrisy of burning one woman at the stake day after day for doing something far less than has been done here before. That old thread wasn't flamed by anyone, it was a good laugh. Why the double standard?

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Response to R B Garr (Reply #332)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 08:42 PM

422. Who are you, the DU Hall Monitor?

I can post in any group I damn well please.

Provide the links where I often post derogatory comments about women. I haven't had any posts hidden recently.

I said I'll take credit for a spirited discussion regarding the SISI.

Talk about taking things out of context!

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Response to RiffRandell (Reply #422)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 08:47 PM

424. Gee, the very first thread I opened in the Men's Group, there you were

making snide comments about other female posters here. That's all I've ever seen you do. Isn't that why you're here now?

You can take all the credit you want, but it doesn't make it true that you contributed nothing in the way of discussion and anyone can see that. You just posted pictures. The very women you mock in the Men's Group are the posters who contributed substance.

Apparently you didn't even read the link polly provided that was unrelated to anything except the personal vendettas you two have with many posters here.

You can quit with your disruptions now.



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Response to R B Garr (Reply #424)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 06:42 AM

490. She didn't 'mock' anyone, so shove your boring, repetitious bs.

She's allowed to post in any group she wishes without you following her around, checking her posts for tone and content. Who are you, anyway?

You go on claiming 'personal vendetta' 'whaaaaaaaaaa' about anything you can't justify, are you afraid to even admit the hypocrisy and unfairness of the way she was treated for posting a simple magazine cover vs. absolutely NO reaction for posting worse here in GD? Your outrage against nudity here is very selective.

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Response to R B Garr (Reply #295)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 02:29 PM

301. That's all it ever was

just a picture of three women on a beach. Seeing as anything else would be sexist and/or objectification. It's kinda funny who actually did that.

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Response to pintobean (Reply #301)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 03:58 PM

329. I take it from your comment you didn't even read the OP

You should try reading it and responding to that.

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Response to R B Garr (Reply #329)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 04:06 PM

333. We're pretty far removed from the OP

in this sub-thread. You should try following the flow of the conversation, rather than trying to dominate it with silly insults.





This is where you compare me to fox news, now.

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Response to pintobean (Reply #333)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 04:16 PM

338. "We"? Nice try. If you follow the posts back, "we" started discussing polly bashing seabeyond

and doing so out of context, as usual.

This is a waste of time with you now. Read the OP and respond to that. Try something new for a change!

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Response to R B Garr (Reply #338)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 04:24 PM

341. 'Bashing seabeyond'.

As opposed to the 'bashing' RiffRandel has been subjected to for posting a magazine cover. You don't get it, it's got nothing to do with who posted either, it's the hypocrisy and cruelty of attacking one woman so viciously for posting a damn magazine cover, while another walked away undoubtedly laughing. Of course, when that same woman here is called a dog and the poster saying it is applauded for it, I don't suppose she was ever worthy of equal treatment from some, amirite?

Oh, and that 'dog' comment and the brutal treatment of Riff is a strange thing, considering who recommended that earlier thread.

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Response to polly7 (Reply #341)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 04:52 PM

345. You're just spamming now. Riff solicited insults in a recent thread,

so she seems pleased with her efforts and wanted even more "feedback", if you will, probably to alert on posts so she could get them hidden.

Anyway, you have a good rest of your day. I've got to run and do some errands.

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Response to R B Garr (Reply #345)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 04:53 PM

346. Blah, blah ........ zzzzz. nt.

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Response to R B Garr (Reply #345)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 06:37 PM

368. Exactly. Despite the fact the guys threw her under the bus

Last edited Tue Feb 25, 2014, 09:17 PM - Edit history (1)

on a dime.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #368)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 09:02 PM

429. who "threw her under the bus"?

Have you asked her for her opinion on that?

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #429)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 09:44 PM

440. You did, in the thread to which I responded this morning

Last edited Tue Feb 25, 2014, 10:26 PM - Edit history (1)

and Bonobo and Quinnox did so above. You couldn't wait to point out that it was all her fault, that is was all due to women and that the men who have carefully stoked the fires of hostility against women on this site are entirely without blame. It feeds right into Blue Harmony's thread that women are at fault for objectification because some of us wear make-up and heels. The menz used her as cover to insist that none of you had anything to do with the endless threads clearly posted to mark territory and make clear women who don't defer to men aren't welcome. Jeff made perfectly clear, as have others, that those threads were posted with the deliberate intention of pissing off feminists. They were intended hostilely and they were received hostilely. Only the game backfired. It exposed hundreds of DUers to the misogyny that is common place here and they have said enough, as hundreds of recommendations for threads such as this one, Bjorn's thread in HOF that has over 180 recs, and Warren Stupidity's thread shows. The charade that only a few fringe feminists object to the misogynist bullshit has been exposed for the lie it is. The game backfired.

If I had so-called "friends" who choose to defend themselves by saying "it's not us; it's her," I would certainly consider that being thrown under the bus. Fortunately, I choose my associations more wisely.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #440)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 09:59 PM

445. Uh huh.

All those posts were in response to something akin to "men posting T&A on DU is unacceptable" or a similar argument. When someone says "men do..." it's legit, IMHO, to point out that it was a woman who posted it. Riff, herself, did the same thing numerous times.

But if she's got a problem with me, I trust she will let me know herself. She's completely capable of making up her own mind about things, in my experience, unlike the people here who have suggested she has "Stockholm Syndrome", or the like, because she posted the cover to the sports illustrated swimsuit issue, a crime against humanity apparently on the Pol Pot/Cambodian Killing Fields level.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #445)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 10:30 PM

451. I could care less about her relationship with you

The point is the game you all are playing. This OP doesn't ask: who posted the SI thread? It is about the widespread misogyny. Naturally you don't give a shit what hundreds of members have said. You have made that perfectly clear. You all use her as cover for ongoing hostility against feminists. No one buys it. As the OP made very clear, the issue is far beyond the SI cover. It is how some members treat women who don't defer to them with absolute contempt and repeated disrespect. That disrespect now extends to the hundreds of members, men and women alike, who have said they are fed up with the crap. But why should that matter to you?

One confused poster is running around accusing people of "attacking Riff." The only people who have even mentioned her are those seeking to use her as cover for their own posting behavior. I responded to that point, and if it is raised again I will do the same.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #451)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 10:32 PM

452. I think you're seriously overthinking DU, honestly.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #451)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 11:04 PM

461. Just to reiterate...

Kindle as a bookmark currently has more recs than this thread. Since you're so enamored with recs lately.
Oh, and... Sunday LOLCats has more than the one in your group that you keep flogging. A lot more. Just cause, apparently it means something out something..

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Response to opiate69 (Reply #461)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 11:26 PM

464. Let's reiterate

Compare and Contrast

SI cover thread, 24
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4498713

Kate Upon in space 5
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024521817

Objectification is women's fault 5
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024550887

And as a historian, my personal nominee for highest level of derpitude,
Objectification will always exist. 8
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024549576



I used to think HOF exaggerated the misogyny around here, 183
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1255&pid=38236

It's about respect for women (this thread), 112

Thanks to Skinner and Earl G for the locks, 121
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024547063

I'm against the gender wars but women shouldn't be the ones to surrender 62
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024535851

DU should be ashamed that members deny objectification is a problem, 75
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024538977

T and A threads create a hostile environment, 175
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024522226

Now I'm no math genius, but even I can figure out the second set of numbers is a lot bigger than the first. And you are indeed right that LOL Cats has more. It always does because it is entirely uncontroversial. Is that a revelation to you?

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #440)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 10:22 PM

447. I hardly consider them verifying a woman made the post "throwing me under the bus"

Last edited Wed Feb 26, 2014, 07:25 AM - Edit history (1)

or their opinion that it shouldn't have been posted in GD; they're entitled to it.

Unlike you, I don't need everyone to agree with me all the time (male or female) which blows your entire theory about me out of the water.

Speaking of games, you're the one that keeps bringing up the amount of recommendations like it's a fucking contest.

My 7 year old daughter doesn't brag when she wins Apples to Apples JR.



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Response to RiffRandell (Reply #447)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 10:24 PM

449. !!



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Response to opiate69 (Reply #449)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 05:06 PM

503. Thank you so much.



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Response to RiffRandell (Reply #447)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 10:25 PM

450. That's a great game.

A lot more fun than GD, right now.

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Response to RiffRandell (Reply #447)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 10:45 PM

455. It is a reflection of the views of hundreds of members of this site

and a clear refutation of the meme that only a few fringe feminists object to the hostile environment and pattern of misogyny that has become common. That is why it is important. It shows what members of this community think. If you find their views and lives irrelevant, so be it. No one can convince you to give a damn about people around you.

I have no idea what you believe, Riff. I have never once seen you articulate a political position. I have only seen you snipe at people. I know who you like and don't like, but I have no idea what you believe. So the idea that you don't need people to agree with you means nothing to me. I know you and I have never discussed a single political or social issue but you nonetheless decided to gossip about me in the men's group, from which I am banned. I don't even know if you talk about politics at all. I don't know anything about your views.

So you keep laughing about what hundreds of members of this site are concerned with. It does show the complete disrespect with which you hold the hundreds of members of this site who have said they have had enough.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #455)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 10:49 PM

458. Well, then. I guess we can surmise that the community here also

like to poke fun at old people for doing stupid shit.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #440)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 10:23 PM

448. Wow...



Spectacularly so.

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Response to polly7 (Reply #341)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 06:36 PM

367. I must have missed the posts attacking her for posting the cover

What I've seen are general responses to the climate of hostility and misogyny, and her chiming saying "it was me, it was me who posted it." I don't think anyone sees this as about Riff in particular.

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Response to polly7 (Reply #240)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 06:39 PM

370. If you think this is about disdain for one member

You aren't reading at all.

If you think the objectification of men is the same as that of women, I don't know what world you live in.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #370)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 06:43 PM

372. I don't know what world you live in if you think

I was in any way speaking about the 'objectification' of anyone. Does pointing out the hypocrisy in the way women are treated here, depending upon whether or not a certain group accepts them, tell you what my views are on the 'objectification'? NO. Not even a good try. Pathetic, actually.

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Response to polly7 (Reply #372)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 07:02 PM

377. You mean the way you treat women?

Yes, I would agree with the term you use to describe the rift between your criticisms of others and what you yourself do. In fact, some members have insisted that I and some others couldn't really be women because evidently real women don't concern themselves with equal rights and know their place is to defer to men at all times.

The OP is about objectification and respect for women, something hundreds of DUers have said they find offensive. That is the point of this thread. I realize you think this and many others threads are about who you like vs. who you don't like, but most DUers are more concerned with broader issues, like the content of the OP: objectification, equal rights, and respect for women.

You complained that whoever posted a picture of naked men wasn't pilloried to your satisfaction, as you insist--absent any evidence whatsoever--that Riff has been for posting the SI thread. I have seen no one shaming or blaming her for that post other than herself and the men who seek to justify it by saying "a woman posted it." In fact, I have seen few people even mention her. The OP is far more concerned about the subsequent reaction to the posting by people who so hostilely dismiss the views of hundreds of women and men on this site who have said they find such posts hostile and misogynistic. So if you are concerned about how Riff has been treated over this incident, I suggest you take it up with the guys who so quickly threw her under the bus.

Your insistence that this is about attacking one woman is clearly without any evidentiary basis. Reading the OPs might help you figure out what the issue at hand is.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #377)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 07:06 PM

378. Sorry, I got tired of reading your long screeds a while ago.

Too hard on the eyes. You might want to paragraph a bit more .... or lecture less.

Once again, my post was regarding the OTT condemnation of one woman here, who's been treated like shit for a while now by your group, compared to the treatment of one of your own for doing much worse and getting rec's for it. I totally understand why you want to ignore that.

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Response to polly7 (Reply #378)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 07:26 PM

390. It's the same ole, same ole.

She should just get it readable once, then copy and paste. It would cut down on the edits, too.

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Response to polly7 (Reply #378)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 11:08 PM

462. I don't think this situation will EVER be resolved to some peoples' satisfaction.

So with that in mind, here's a video of some quadruplets cracking up.



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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #462)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 06:40 AM

489. LOL!

Those babies are hilariously adorable!

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Response to quinnox (Reply #7)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 01:54 AM

153. It wasn't ABOUT the pictures themselves....it is just the reason it occurred...

and there are some women.....who WILL do anything to impress their male peers by the way so pointing out a female did it...is no excuse...(there is a term called Stockholm Syndrome)

The point is.....that it was used to send a message...and it contained some vile comments to support that contention....

It was meant to stir up emotions about whether or not there is gender discrimination....That women should just STFU. There are a number of men you know that feel rejected by women and somehow think that women have all the power in the world....because they aren't popular with women (probably because women sense this). Because they think women have power over them.....they subconsciously hate women.... one that got banned today is an example that comes to mind. Men like that think THEY are the victim of women.....so they want to hurt them! There are other men who subconsciously feel the same way....and will react similarly but deny that is their motivation...they may not be as overt about it....but they hold deep seated resentment of women for some perceived previous rejection....

We women are exposed to that kind of thinking ALL THE TIME! Day in and day out....

YOU will note that many of the same ones on that thread are the same ones that OUTRIGHT deny that women are discriminated against. Some even went so far as to outright deny racial discrimination....thinking somehow they too had been discriminated against (for things they CHOSE in life I might add, completely missing the point). The only thing they proved is that they do NOT have empathy or respect for those who actually have been. This minimizes the problem ....its insulting and degrading.....and it is a disgrace. It has a chilling effect and it stifles debate....

DU should not be a place where people that do that kind of thing are tolerated because they are "cute" or funny....Denial of racial or gender or sexual identity discrimination should NOT be tolerated on DU! It should NOT be an argument here that minorities, women or the LGBT community should HAVE to fight. Isn't that part of the Democratic platform? Democrats are fighting to END discrimination....to end it....you have to be willing to accept that it is very real.

Being one of "us" should mean that we accept these truths and we are fighting to improve the civil rights of those that have been discriminated against....we should be about EQUALITY for everyone. To make that happen first we have to all agree that it IS the reality we live in...and we should NOT allow women and minorities and the LGBT community to be treated like they have been recently around here....Women should come to DU and expect a level playing field where the fact that they are women doesn't mean a Tinkers dam. Objectifying women in that environment makes them feel like peices of meat to be devoured....THAT is the message that OBJECTIFYING women creates....that we are nothing more than slabs of meat.....so therefore how can we have legitimate political discourse and expect that we are being taken seriously? That our voice matters?

If the things I have seen in GD regarding women and minorities lately occurred on the job.....you can bet, at the very least, someone would be watching those sensitivity training videos.....at the LEAST.

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Response to quinnox (Reply #7)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 07:33 AM

180. But does it really matter

one female posted it. Many others said... "take it somewhere else" and explained why they were uncomfortable with it. We can either listen to their feelings or we can ignore and fight for the right to.... post sexy pictures in GD????

I am a female. The pics didn't bug me. But people are explaining why they feel uncomfortable with the image.

I was talked down to by someone in another thread (quite rudely) on the side that I'm defending right now. For being silly. I'm not so prone to listening to her, so I get why people seem to want to put their backs up and capitulate. BUT... there are a lot of other women explaining why the images are disturbing to them. Can we not listen and maybe consider?

(The images are not what bothers me. It's the digging in of the heels and justification for posting the images that I find issues with.)

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Response to quinnox (Reply #7)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 08:58 AM

196. It is like a real legend now. the facts don't matter, just the greater truth it supposedly

represents.

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Response to quinnox (Reply #7)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 11:21 AM

227. well then why don't we talk about how it was posted by a woman but almost constantly defended by men

like yourself.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #5)

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 10:16 PM

9. And she was compared to a dog for posting it.

Just puzzling.

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Response to Jetboy (Reply #9)

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 10:35 PM

25. My how the stories get more and more distorted with each retelling

That comment was months before she posted the SI thread, and you don't even have that right. There is a whole thread on it in the Men's group. Did you not check its posting date?

Certain members have expressed outrage that juries, on rare occasion, hide a post insulting women as b.....es (literally female dogs) freely, while one member couldn't let an opportunity pass by to use the c....t word.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1114&pid=12924
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1114&pid=12936

As for the thread being posted by a woman, that is irrelevant. The members of this site most hostile to feminists, most but not all of which are male, have been the ones insistent that they simply do not care in the slightest that most women and indeed the majority of DUers find those kinds of posts inappropriate on this site. The person who posted the Kate Upton thread was male, as have been those who have posted threads insisting objectification "will always exist" or is the fault of women rather than men, and dozens of other similar threads doubling down on the offense.

I will also note that one female member of the site who goes to the mat to defend the SI thread insisted that those of us who object to things like that can't possibly be women and that we should be required to prove our sex. Evidently that person assumes only a male member could care about equal rights and then women by nature understand that they should remain deferential to men at all times.

I care far less about the gender of a member than what he or she stands for. It someone aligns themselves with those hostile to women's rights, that is the salient issue, not their sex.

Clearly some look for female accomplices to justify their ill treatment of women, just as the GOP looks to people like Clarence Thomas and Alan West to justify racism.

One of the ugliest aspects of misogyny is that women internalize it. All of us do to some extent or another, but some never become aware of it and go about putting down other women in order to seek male approval.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #25)

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 10:42 PM

34. thank you, Baines.

so sick of this childish nonsense.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #25)

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 10:42 PM

35. Hey,

The words that you substituted for "b.....es" and "c....t" still went into my head. Don't ever type them again on this board.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #25)

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 10:48 PM

39. It is wrong to compare a woman to a dog. How did the people in that thread not understand

that?

That thread really opened my eyes to what is going on here.

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Response to Jetboy (Reply #39)

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 10:53 PM

42. So you did see the comment?

So why did you just now claim it was because of the SI post, when you had to know it wasn't? Did you deliberately intend to mislead? And how, I wonder, does a comment by one person "open your eyes to what is going on here" ?

Do you agree with then with the members who use words b....h and c...t to refer to women? Is that acceptable to you while that other comment from months ago was not?

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #42)

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 10:57 PM

45. I read the entire thread and it was horrific the way she was treated.

I didn't know that the incident happened prior to the SI posting. I have yet to see any condemnation of the comment which again is very odd if you asked me.

Of course nobody should be called those names here or anywhere else.

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Response to Jetboy (Reply #45)

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 11:13 PM

57. you are very sadly mistaken if you think I have not been condemned for that comment.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #57)

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 11:23 PM

69. The poster below is specifically not condemning it for whatever reason. n/t

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Response to Jetboy (Reply #69)

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 11:24 PM

71. good lord. never mind.

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Response to Jetboy (Reply #69)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 12:48 AM

135. Why is it my responsibility to condemn it?

Did you condemn the person who called Redqueen a w. . .e? Did you condemn the insults against me as mentally ill, unhinged, and a b. . . h? Did you take responsibility for the deaths in the Ukraine? Why am I responsible for a comment I had no part in?

You knew that comment was made months ago, yet in this thread you falsely claim the person was insulted because she posted the SI thread. Yet you knew that wasn't true. Additionally, when Tuesday Afternoon addressed you directly, your comment to her was that I had not denounced the comment. It would appear you are far less interested in any of the parties involved or the actual content of the exchange than in using it as a club against other women on this site, whom for some reason you have decided are responsible for something they never said.

It appears to me that you are raising that comment as a means to deflect from the subject of the OP, as if the fact that person was insulted justifies widespread misogyny. It is difficult to see your exchange here as anything other than a rather clumsily executed pursuit of an agenda.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #135)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 12:56 AM

141. I was simply pointing that fact out.

I wasn't on DU when that thread happened and only saw it recently. I was mistakenly under the impression that it happened after the SI thread she posted. My agenda is that of justice and equality for all.

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Response to Jetboy (Reply #141)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 03:09 AM

163. In that case

I would urge you to consider the broader context. I am not defending that post. I won't defend any such personal insults. I also am not familiar enough with the content of the post to comment much about it, though I know a great deal about the circumstances surrounding it. That insult is one among many, and the people continually pointing to it have made plenty of their own. That poster in fact has made a number of negative comments about me in a group from which I am banned, despite the fact I had never even had a conversation with her. As a result, I can't bring myself to be especially concerned with her feelings. I take your word for the fact you don't support the agenda of those who are hostile to feminists and equal rights. I would caution you, then, to avoid playing into it. There is far, far more going on that you realize. You might read Bjorn Against's thread in ATA for starters.

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Response to Jetboy (Reply #45)

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 11:18 PM

62. I did not read the thread

nor was I part of the exchange. However I was called upon to apologize for it on multiple occasions, by men who have insulted women on this site as whores and a series of other degrading terms, including those linked. Why I should apologize for something I had nothing to do with escapes me.

I am continually amazed that particular insult is viewed so much more seriously that the dozens of others that occur each and every day, many of which are worse. It's clear the whole thing serves a mercenarian purpose. The person targeted in that exchange gives cover to men who oppose equal opportunity and care not one iota what the majority of women or indeed the majority of DUers find hostile and offensive. I do not consider someone who opposes my civil rights as more important than the rest of humanity. I suspect most of the men who point to that example don't really care about the insult to her as much as they like to use it as an excuse for opposing feminists on this site and women's voices overall. If you decide that one exchanges tells you something about the site more broadly, I expect whatever it is telling you is what you wanted to believe to begin with. One person doesn't represent more than one person, unless of course people want to use it as an excuse for something else, which is precisely how that incident has played out.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #62)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 08:59 PM

426. Can you at least admit it created a hostile environment for women?

That does seem to be your favorite phrase lately.

I never called for you to apologize. Why would I? You didn't say it. However, when it was brought to my attention that I did make a mean personal attack almost 2 years ago, I most certainly apologized because it was the right thing to do and I felt bad about it.

The insult doesn't bother me nearly as much as the hypocrisy.

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Response to RiffRandell (Reply #426)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 09:32 PM

436. For women?

How many women are you?

It was a personal insult to you. Tell me why exactly a personal insult to a person who has made negative comments about me, despite my never having had a conversation with you, should concern me in any way? What makes you so much more important than everyone else on DU who is insulted?

Are you going to apologize for gossiping about me in a group from which I was banned, despite our never having had a conversation? I don't see that you are a paragon of virtue to sit in judgment of others or declare yourself primordial WOMEN. Are all the attacks against me personally a hostile environment for women? Or are we again back to your being more important than any one else on this site?

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #436)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 09:40 PM

439. Only one woman, with only one account.

Like I said, it's about the hypocrisy.

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Response to RiffRandell (Reply #439)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 09:50 PM

441. What hypocrisy is that?

You have yet to explain to me why an insult to you is more important than the many insults to other men and women on this site, or why you should be entitled to gossip about people you have never talked to, while if anyone says anything to you it's an affront against humanity.

I don't happen to consider you any more important than any other human being on this planet. An insult to you means no more to me than an insult to any other member on this site. If I bothered to keep in my head all the personal attacks against me and brought them up months later as you do, I would have nothing else to think or post about. Cowgirl up. Everyone gets attacked. You are no more important than any other member of this site. The constant raising of that particular attack above all others is most certainly a stunning example of hypocrisy.

TA has made plenty of attacks against me, which is why I had her on ignore for a long time, until just after that incident with you in fact. The one benefit of certain members using you as fodder in their war against feminists is that it prompted her and me to patch things up. I moved on. You can too. Only that exchange with you serves the purposes of a few on this site, whose concerns have nothing to do with your honor or well being. That anyone expects I or anyone else to denounce something we have no part in shows that its purpose is entirely mercenarian.

How about you and Bonobo denounce the attack against William769 in GD a couple days ago? Or how about you assume responsibility for the racist thread on watermelon and fried chicken? Shall I hold you accountable for random things you had no part in? Of course not, yet for some bizarre reason people seem to want to use that insult against use as a club. That should tell you it has nothing to do with you and everything to do with their own ends.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #25)

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 11:59 PM

99. I was on the jury for that very post.

It was a 3/3 decision. It was a nasty comment and should have been hidden.

What has been going on here has been verbal abuse. That leaves scars that no one can see. The wounds run deep.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #99)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 01:26 PM

268. Perhaps,

using the example of a dog instead of any other pet was my real mistake.

The point I was trying to make was that I thought Riff was saying and doing things to please the boys, to be in their good graces and receive positive attention from them.

I realize the word dog is connected to the word b*tch, but my intention was that her BEHAVIOR was reminiscent (to me) of a favored PET, not that she is a b*tch or other gender-based slur.

I hope this clears up any questions regarding that post.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #268)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 01:47 PM

277. The flip side of the white knight?

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Response to pintobean (Reply #277)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 01:56 PM

283. possibly ... I am not well versed enough or knowledgeable about all the

terminology to speak to that. There is a lot of psychology at play here in all of this. The motivating factors behind why certain people behave certain ways.

It just seems to me that some women constantly seek out men for validation, confirmation. Only they can speak to the reason why they do it.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #283)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 01:58 PM

286. Could you give specific examples?

Or is it just enough to make the claim?

How do you expect to get answers if you just make these cryptic accusations over and over with no real reference to an actual case of it?

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Response to polly7 (Reply #286)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 02:14 PM

292. I was not talking to you and, I asked no questions of you. In Fact, I was ANSWERING a question

directed To ME from PintoBean.

I asked no questions therefore I require no answers.

Peace.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #292)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 02:15 PM

293. Yeah, I pretty much thought it was just blowing smoke. No worries.

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Response to polly7 (Reply #293)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 02:31 PM

303. thank you, pintobean. It was nice talking to you. I am sorry our subthread was derailed.

Have a good day.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #303)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 02:32 PM

305. You can't just go around insulting other women here without expecting to get asked

about it, can you?

It wasn't pintobean you were insulting.

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Response to polly7 (Reply #305)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 02:39 PM

309. I wasn't insulting anyone. I have asked and answered and I am done here. You have a problem with me?

I suggest you do as others have offered as a solution.

The answer to your problem is solved with the ignore button, the little red x by my name.

Use it liberally.

Be progressive with it.

Take charge of your DU3 experience.

Have a Nice Day, polly7

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #309)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 02:42 PM

311. Yes, you WERE.

And no, I don't ignore people who feel they have the right to insult and bully others with accusations they can't even back up. I have an equal right to respond to it.

Thanks anyway, though.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #283)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 02:56 PM

314. There was a long thread about it last week.

You participated in it. It was the thread with the infamous loose wheel post.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024528423

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Response to pintobean (Reply #314)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 12:05 AM

468. Yes, but that term is usually in reference to men.

So, I would say that no, what was done by that person was not white knighting.

I think it could be called "currying favor."

This leaves gender completely out of the equation.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #268)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 04:18 PM

339. interesting how few can see that

how one (mis)perceived insult aimed at one woman has all these same people jumping on your ass, yet not one of them sees the insults thrown by themselves or others.

even if you did outright call another woman a dog rather than the reality of making an allusion to the way a PET acts, it would be nothing compared to the crap that goes on against women in general from the hostiles around here.

isn't there some famous quote, none are so blind as those who won't look?




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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #268)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 11:56 PM

465. Sorry for the confussion...I was talking about this post

I will also note that one female member of the site who goes to the mat to defend the SI thread insisted that those of us who object to things like that can't possibly be women and that we should be required to prove our sex. Evidently that person assumes only a male member could care about equal rights and then women by nature understand that they should remain deferential to men at all times.


Won't name the poster, but it wasn't yours.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #268)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 12:34 AM

469. Whoa! I didn't make that connection about a female dog or that slur at all.

I took it as being loyal like man's best friend, i.e. unthinkingly loyal to a fault type thing or maybe to mean being vicious as in competitive about men. I realize this needs to be dropped, but I just wanted to point out that it never occrred to me that your analogy meant anything about a female dog.

You've handled this very graciously, I must say, which is why I wanted to point out that the B word wasn't at all how your analogy came across in my reading, so you are taking a lot of flack for posturing purposes at this point.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #99)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 02:31 PM

302. +1

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Response to one_voice (Reply #302)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 02:32 PM

304. -1

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #99)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 05:27 PM

353. +1

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Response to In_The_Wind (Reply #353)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 08:24 PM

418. -1

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #99)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 08:31 PM

420. +10000000000000000000000000 nt.

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Response to polly7 (Reply #420)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 09:00 PM

427. Ditto!

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #25)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 07:50 AM

184. It's funny how that keeps being brought up by

people who kept it zipped when other women here were being called crones,hags,harpies,manhaters and being falsely accused of lying about sexual abuse.

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Response to Jetboy (Reply #9)

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 10:52 PM

41. The story becomes

oversimplified in the retelling. Nobody got called a dog.

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Response to rrneck (Reply #41)

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 10:55 PM

44. The poster said something to the effect that they had a dog pictured in their

head and it reminded them of Riff. To me it was about the worst thing I've read on here yet nobody called them on it. Very strange IMO.

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Response to Jetboy (Reply #44)

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 11:00 PM

46. Nah.

I'm not going to go digging for it, but it was just a hyperbolic analogy. Any time the term dog comes within ten miles of anything about women all the wrong associations latch on like parasites. Nobody here is Shakespeare and it's not fair to flog people with a single statement forever. She had to listen to a fair bit of shit about and that should be it.

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Response to rrneck (Reply #46)

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 11:01 PM

47. I don't even know how to dig for it but that was it to the best of my recollection. n/t

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Response to Jetboy (Reply #47)

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 11:03 PM

49. It's cool.

Ass J.R.R.Tolkein once said, "The tale grows in the telling."

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Response to Jetboy (Reply #47)

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 11:03 PM

50. Yes, and more about being a good little lap dog wanted to be petted.

I know I am the last one to judge what is wrong or right for women but if that's not wrong, what is?

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Response to Jetboy (Reply #50)

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 11:11 PM

54. good lord.

are you for real?

I am in this thread. You want to talk to me about it? shoot me a PM but, stop with this nonsense when I am right here.

and yes, there are a lot worse things that can be said and done.


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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #54)

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 11:19 PM

63. I didn't pay attention to who posted it but since you are the one you can feel free

to PM me how that was ok to do.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #54)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 12:41 AM

130. TA, it's because it has nothing to do with you

or the remark against Riff. It's nothing more than an excuse to deflect from the issue of the OP and thereby imply that misogyny is justified.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #130)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 01:40 PM

273. I am trying to not take it personally and, to leave personalities out of all this...

believe me -I- am trying.

but, at some point I have to defend this character assassination of me.


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Response to Jetboy (Reply #50)

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 11:28 PM

75. It's hardly a mortal sin.

Part of the problem with this whole "pictures on DU" controversy is the inflated penumbra of outrage that stretches to the limits of perception. With that kind of outrage there will always be somebody somewhere on the internet willing to pull your chain. People are too eager to be outraged for it's own sake.

It's like this. The dynamic in the current objectification battle is that the Bloods don't want to see certain types of images on DU at all, and the Crips respond by finding boatloads of images, articles etc. that fit the TOS and the SOP. The more pissed off the Bloods get, the higher they raise the bar on acceptable images, and the Crips use the Google machine to gin up more stuff to piss them off.

It turns GD into the back seat of a minivan on vacation, but there it is.

So being annoyed about what somebody said months ago is really no different from being annoyed about bare bottoms in GD.

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Response to rrneck (Reply #75)

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 11:34 PM

79. I didn't know that happened so long ago. I just can't fathom how that flew but

the SI thing didn't. What I am doing is trying to understand how what flies is decided and who is deciding it. It has been very interesting since I've been lucky enough to have some time to really read DU for the first time in a good while.

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Response to Jetboy (Reply #79)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 12:04 AM

102. Because this is a political message board.

It's an amateur think tank for public policy and culture war scrimmaging. This place is made for partisan posturing. It's a petri dish for ideological extremism. Feminism has been a pretty important part of Democratic politics for a while now, so anybody calling themselves a feminist is gonna have some pull. Deal with it. When you get tired of that tell people you own an AR15 and see how you do with that.

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Response to rrneck (Reply #102)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 12:13 AM

112. And bless it's existence!

I'm a Democrat- when something is unfair I call it out, ESPECIALLY when it's the powerful doing it.

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Response to Jetboy (Reply #112)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 12:15 AM

113. I try to set my sights a little higher.

But if you want to bark up that tree, it's all you dawg.

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Response to rrneck (Reply #113)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 12:24 AM

120. What I love aoubt DU is that your worst enemy on one issue is your best friend

on another. I love 1950s music and style and expressed my opinion in a thread about Rockabilly lifestyle. This person absolutely grilled me about the racism and misogyny of that decade (which I wasn't even alive for).

Next time I'm on DU I find myself passionately agreeing with that very same poster on another issue!

DU should be about the post, not the poster.

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Response to Jetboy (Reply #120)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 12:26 AM

123. Stick around.

The site has a bookmark feature and it get used a lot.

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Response to rrneck (Reply #75)

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 11:38 PM

84. LOL, this is great, especially for the intended poster

Not to mention that this faux outrage and confusion over a very understandable analogy is like watching the Fox News Group gin up some talking points ala Benghazi. Fake!

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Response to rrneck (Reply #75)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 12:39 AM

129. You pretty much covered it.

 

It's like this. The dynamic in the current objectification battle is that the Bloods don't want to see certain types of images on DU at all, and the Crips respond by finding boatloads of images, articles etc. that fit the TOS and the SOP. The more pissed off the Bloods get, the higher they raise the bar on acceptable images, and the Crips use the Google machine to gin up more stuff to piss them off.


What I don't get is the almost constant belittling and put-down of the men here, with anything being put up in our defense by either gender, is deemed to be derogatory toward women.
Someone up above mentioned FOX News. Their way of doing the "news" covers the way used to put the men here on the defensive. Facts and reality have little to do with the misandry being perpetrated here. Twist and make up stuff. When we object, charges of misogyny are tossed out. In fact the misandry here is being denied, when in fact, it is high profile all over General Discussion.
No one should feel to be under attack here on DU for not toeing to any group's rules, outside of that Group. Yet DU is being turned into a war zone and instead of seeing the problem, too many people here ignore it, or assumed it is some petty squabbling. But more often, anyone that can see what is actually happening, is assigned the roll of the enemy, by those that are actually waging the war.
I have mentioned 'blow-back' a few time and was told those pictures were not the blow-back, but were posted to objectify women. No They were not. it is blow-back. Never mind most of those pictures are widely available almost everywhere in the reality of the real world. But for some reason, on this adult political web site, reality cannot intrude, we must defer to the most narrow interpretations of vocal group objecting to widely available pictures being posted here. Never mind DU is supposedly an Adult web site. Never mind there is lots of other stuff here that people object to. It is only what this one group says is objectionable that needs to be paid attention to. Nothing else seem to matter to them. Something is very wrong here.
I was told by a female DU'er, not long ago, that this group reminds her of the Teabaggers. I think she may be correct.

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Response to RC (Reply #129)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 01:00 AM

142. Ideology is a consumer product.

This is an ideology delivery device. Some people are junkies.

Every group needs extremists. For my money the left doesn't have enough of them, and the few we do have are extremists about the wrong issues. We get both barrels of that here. I've actually seen people advocate purges here. It's like the French revolution or something. But from what I understand that's a pretty standard dynamic in revolutionary ideology.

Every family needs a crazy uncle that embarrasses them. But it's best to only trot him out for Thanksgiving.

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Response to rrneck (Reply #75)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 01:56 PM

282. And there you are

Last edited Tue Feb 25, 2014, 02:46 PM - Edit history (2)

dedicated to pulling chains, despite the fact hundreds of DUers have said they find it unacceptable. You think the extremists are those who value human equality, whereas the ones who deliberately and repeatedly show no concern for the views of the majority of posters on this site are not?

Prohibitions of those sorts of pictures in public workplaces and public buildings has been standard for decades, which anyone who has held a job with a company that follows labor law knows. It is prohibited by Equal Opportunity Law as founded in the Civil Rights Act of 1964. I have no doubt that some believe Civil Rights too extreme for them, but then those people aren't really liberals or Democrats. They are reactionaries. There is nothing extreme about basic respect for other human beings and not using public forums as though it were your home. Amazingly, most people understand that the world is filled with a diverse range of people, some even born after 1940, who may perceive the world differently from them. They know that maintaining community requires respect for other human beings. Yet some insist the only thing that matters is their own ego and desires, and that everyone else on the planet is entirely irrelevant.

FYI, ideology itself is not a consumer product. Everything is not about profit. True some people maintain ideologies that are firmly rooted in capitalism and see their sexuality and their very rights as connected to the profit of corporations. For example, they can't imagine their sexuality apart from porn and SI swimsuit spreads, both of which exist to generate profit. Or their notion of personal freedom is linked to unfettered profit for gun companies. There are, however, many kinds of ideology. Some are quite simple: All human beings are created equal; listen to their concerns, even when they don't look and think exactly like you; and treat them with respect. Yeah, that's really extremist. All it requires is understanding that the self isn't the only thing that matters.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #282)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 02:44 PM

312. Well, lets see if we can find a crouton in this word salad...

"...hundreds of DUers have said they find it unacceptable."

I'll defer to the administrators of the site to answer that question. But you already knew that, didn't you? Have you stopped to wonder why Skinner replied the way he did? Don't you think he is aware that every word he says gets quoted and parsed to oblivion? He just gave you some important information there, I wonder if you have the good sense to use it.

"Prohibitions of those sorts of pictures in public workplaces and public buildings has been standard for decades..."

You aren't at work. You don't have to show up here, and if you do you have all sorts of tools to tailor the experience to your liking. All this moaning is just telling other people to STFU. Sound familiar? Are you comfortable with silencing progressive voices? Cultures change, and liberals are supposed to promote and embrace change. Of course there is the danger of unintended consequences. Deal with it. Clinging to outdated ersatz ideology won't work for anyone but the people selling it to you. Besides, that's what conservatives are best at.

"FYI, ideology itself is not a consumer product."

Yes, it is. Especially on the internet, and if you aren't buying something, you're the product. Or do you really believe Laci is a selfless crusader for your pet cause and not building a career in the media? You couldn't be that star struck, could you?

"...they can't imagine their sexuality apart from porn and SI swimsuit spreads..."

Bullshit. Images don't work that way, and literalism puts you in bed with these people. How's that for kinky?

Well damn. No croutons. Lots of vinegar and oil though. Look, when someone's basic reason for being here is to be hyper sensitive, they will always find something to be pissed off about. And for ideological fundamentalists, the bar never goes up. Reasonable people understand that. The real question to answer is why do people do it. The truth is that tribalism pays. For some it pays in money. For others it pays in fame (hopfully resulting in money). For still others it pays in power (hopefully resulting in more money). On an internet chat board, the only payoff is egotistical self gratification.

Hey, you got a case to make? You want to save us from ourselves? You got all the answers? Prove it. And bullshit boilerplate don't count.



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Response to rrneck (Reply #312)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 03:40 PM

324. Why don't you tell us what Skinner meant?

Last edited Tue Feb 25, 2014, 04:22 PM - Edit history (2)

When he locked the Kate Upton thread? When he said he had alerted on SI posts?

Hundreds of DUers find it unacceptable. Your response is what? Too bad? You don't care about anyone but yourself? You have explicitly said that saving lives of children is not worth the inconvenience to gun owners from modest restrictions. You are indeed ideologically consistent in showing that your own wants are more important than the social good. Your views toward a hostile environment are in keeping with that. The inconvenience of going to another site or actually buy an SI issue is too great to forsake posting the images in DU and enjoying the subsequent shit storm that ensues.

This is a public place. It is place for Democrats. Real Democrats value diversity. They know their primary voter base is women and people of color. Skinner also locked the Upton thread and told the GD hosts such posts are not allowed. It is indeed private space, but that private space isn't your toilet. I have never tried to silence progressive voices. There is nothing progressive about male supremacy. In fact, I haven't tried to silence any voice. I've tried to convince you to listen to someone's besides your own, to the hundreds of members who are sick of the misogyny. We have said we don't like the SI and other bikini pictures in GD. SI is, I suppose, a voice of sorts, but it is the product of a media conglomerate. That it generates millions in profit may make it more valuable to you than the views of the majority of members of this site, but most of DUers do not share that belief. The fact you claim you don't have to pay attention to common offline practices meant to enhance diversity certainly shows that those of us who would like DU to behave accordingly are not the extremists. You claim a loophole for why you shouldn't have to be concerned about civil rights and equal opportunity law. You are right that DU is not required to abide by such laws. It would be a neo-Nazi site if it wanted to, but the fact is most people here are liberals and maintain liberal values of inclusively. You are openly hostile to that position and claim there is something "conservative" about valuing the diversity of voices in this community rather than just yourself and those who think like you. I hate to break it to you, but Ayn Rand is not a paragon of liberalism.

Ideology as consumption: I believe Laci is making a point. A point that should be easy to understand for people of all educational levels, which is why the video is valuable. I understand that you have no conception of a world outside of capitalist commodity fetishism and that you think the current ethos generated by that economic system is somehow natural and immutable. That is an attempt to justify the status quo with tired old appeals that it has always been that way. I have no reason to question that your conception of ideology is entirely linked to consumption and profit. You have repeatedly shown that your values correspond with consumer capitalism, which makes sense because you, like all of us, are a product of the current system. However, history is instructive in that it shows what people assume to be constant and immutable is not so. The notion that profit is a virtue and somehow natural dates from the late 18th century onward. It was not always been that way, and there have been many different kinds of ideologies that produced no profit and did not seek profit. The Moral Economy of the crowd, for example, is a popular ideology that in fact arose in opposition to profit. The notion of the Inkari as an indigenous religious figure who would descend to earth and free the Quechua and Aymara peoples from Spanish colonial rule was not only not a product of consumption, it arose in part in response to attempts to impose consumption. There are hundreds of other such examples. Ideology existed long before consumer capitalism; ideologies have risen in opposition to consumer capitalism; and ideologies will arise after the demise of consumer capitalism.

Bullshit on your Southern Baptist canard. It completely misses the issue. Amazingly, human beings can and have had perfectly happy sex lives before corporate pornographers and media conglomerates generated profits. In fact, those genres substitute for actual sex. To pretend it is about innate sexuality is truly sad. I can't imagine what it must be like to feel your most intimate nature cannot exist without corporate profit in mass media or the human trafficking endemic to the porn industry. Imagine thinking that one's very sexuality depends on a system than reduces millions of women and children to slavery. What a sad and exploitive notion of human sexuality you have. But hey, the Christian right opposes human trafficking too. That must mean it's a good thing, right? Guilt by association? Since we're playing that game, You know who is in your corner 100 percent on these matters? The cavers and freepers. They share your views on the subject down to the tee because they too resent equal rights and think the only people who matter are white men and those who bow to their will.

You want to pretend that liberalism includes only the ethos of old men nostalgic for period before the Civil Rights era, that it by its very definition excludes women and others who care about human equality. Bullshit. You are seeking to justify male supremacy and the denial of equal rights. There is nothing more reactionary that that. You've may have convinced yourself there is something liberal about opposing the rights of the majority of the population, but few people are going to fall for it. It's a transparent effort to justify exploitation and cling to privilege. The body politic no longer exists for white men only, and the Democratic Party certainly does not.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #324)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 04:36 PM

343. And in stampedes the Gish at a full gallop.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Gish_Gallop

Your style, such as it is, runs pretty consistent. It begins with a restatement to suit your needs, then follows it with a boatload of self aggrandizing bombast and accusations. So, with that in mind, let's begin.

You have explicitly said that saving lives of children is not worth the inconvenience to gun owners from modest restrictions.

Dig up a link. And don't quote mine it.

Real Democrats value diversity. They know their primary voter base is women and people of color.

You missed a curiously ironic word there - but. Lets try it again. Real Democrats value diversity but they know their primary voter base is women and people of color. Nice two tiered system you got there. Just perfect for telling people to STFU. Which is what you are telling other members of DU to do.

Skinner also locked the Upton thread and told the GD hosts such posts are not allowed.

Not allowed in GD, as I recall. It was an SOP issue. And it wasn't the original Sports Illustrated cover OP, but the "zero gravity" OP. But that's an interesting thing for me. I'm a GD host, and ordinarlly I'd vote to lock something like that in GD because it isn't big news or an issue. But the hue and cry raised about it by people like you make it an issue, thus making it much more difficult for the hosts to come to consensus to lock it. Either objectification is an issue in this country or it isn't. If it is, then it belongs in GD.

And by the way, I posted an OP about that "zero G" photo shoot myself. Since you're such a political Svengali, see if you can figure out the implications.

I believe Laci is making a point.

Really. Good for her. Now is another golden opportunity to explain it (And that link should help clarify the cozy relationship you have with the SBC). Have you figured out what that point is yet?

Amazingly, human beings can and have had perfectly happy sex lives before corporate pornographers and media conglomerates generated profits.

Of course they did. They even managed it before the Victorians coined the word pornography. There is no one to one correspondence between an image, or for that matter anything else, and any specific human behavior. That notion went out with the Victorian era even as the "P" word lingers on.

The last paragraph is just self aggrandizing bombast and baseless accusations. I'll say it again, if you don't provide rational proof for your assertions, you're just entertaining yourself. And I have no doubt you enjoyed it.



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Response to Jetboy (Reply #44)

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 11:13 PM

58. I take it Riff is a personal, in real life, friend of yours.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #58)

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 11:25 PM

72. Never had a single exchange with her that I recall but that doesn't matter.

Heck, I despise all of the T and A stuff as it's just trashy.

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Response to Jetboy (Reply #72)

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 11:32 PM

77. I don't know what your specific issue is with me

but, I think you and I are done here.

Now that you can no longer deny not knowing who made that post I am politely asking you to cease and desist with this nonsense or,
I will be forced to seek recourse.

Your continuing to bring it up borders on harassment and hostility and, I do not appreciate it.

I hope you understand.

Peace.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #77)

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 11:36 PM

81. I am sorry as I wasn't doing it to offend you. I won't mention it again. n/t

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Response to Jetboy (Reply #81)

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 11:39 PM

85. Have you not been here since DU2 made the change over to DU3?

I am reading your replies to other posters and this is the impression I am getting.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #85)

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 11:41 PM

87. No I don't remember the change. What is different about DU now? n/t

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Response to Jetboy (Reply #87)

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 11:46 PM

89. Jetboy, This is no longer a moderated site. There is jury system in place and Hosts determine if

threads fit the SoP for the group. Click on the tab :about this group:

Things have changed drastically around here.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #89)

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 11:51 PM

95. That's interesting. Thanks for the information. I really enjoy DU but normally

don't have much time to read.

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Response to Jetboy (Reply #44)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 12:39 AM

128. The worst thing?

Worse than ridiculing and insulting as a liar someone who recounted her story of being raped as a child? Worse than calling women b...s and c...ts? A b....h is a female dog, after all. It's worse that condemning a victim of child abuse who denounced her rapists as herself being the abuser? Worse than telling women they aren't really women? Worse than referring to black people as N....s? Worse than calling posters mentally ill? Worse than saying women who object to misogyny need therapy? Worse than a man's telling a woman he wants to rape her? Worse than wishing people dead? Worse than calling rape victims liars and defending rapists and pedophiles? Worse than trying to normalize pedophilia? Really? Why is that? Clearly we have very different senses of morality. You see, I don't think one member being called a dog (though I am told that is not what the comment actually did, but say it did for argument's sake) is no worse than calling another a dog, and I certainly don't think it worse than many of the other attacks I listed above.

From what I saw in that post, I did see a number of people denounce the comment. The fact a witch hunt thread was erected for that purpose shows far more concern about that insult than the many others those same members regularly deliver themselves. You do enjoy deflecting. Apparently that comment from months ago is more important than the subject of misogyny and mistreatment of all women. In fact, it would appear some think it justifies misogyny. It justifies treating women as objects and making clear that the views of the majority of women and the majority of the members on this site are entirely inconsequential in comparison to a few members intent to mark GD as male territory. Really what it does is provide an excuse for a rather clumsy and transparent deflection.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #128)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 12:51 AM

136. I believe in treating all people with respect and do my best to live by the

Golden Rule. I hope to NOT see all of the stuff that you describe but if I did, I would condemn it.

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Response to Jetboy (Reply #136)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 12:55 AM

139. If you have't been around much

as you noted down thread, and haven't read much lately, how could you claim to know what the worst insult has been? And that still doesn't explain why you feel holding me responsible for that comment is more important than discussing it with the person who actually made it.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #139)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 01:05 AM

146. Anyone can make a mistake but only a quality person can own up to it.

It's over and done with as far as I'm concerned.

And you are correct that I haven't been around much lately. I am very busy but enjoy stopping by DU occasionally.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #5)

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 10:19 PM

10. I urge you to recall all the posts you made which were dismissive of women's concerns

You seem to want to pretend this is about a single post, it is not. The problem was not so much the initial post, the problem was with the way people like you responded.

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Response to Bjorn Against (Reply #10)

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 10:26 PM

18. Exactly right.

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Response to Bjorn Against (Reply #10)

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 11:04 PM

51. Actually the way I responded was to agree

That the SI cover shouldn't be in GD, look it up.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #51)

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 11:12 PM

55. I have seen enough of your posting history to know how dismissive you have been of women

You can tell me to look up all the posts that you want, but the fact that you may have said a few things that were not dismissive does not make up for the overall pattern we have seen of you dismissing women's issues.

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Response to Bjorn Against (Reply #55)

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 11:21 PM

67. Bjorn, think whatever you like

You don't know me and it is clear that you have recently established in your mind an entire concrete category of monolithic misogynists, devoid of humanity, and now I, being on that list, must be reduced to that small group.
Nothing I ever say will remove that mote from your eye. I have become a useful prop in the newly created movie that is entitled "the noble journey of Bjorn" and I will continue in that role in your mind.
Fine. But you do NOT define who I am nor do you understand my life experiences. I reject your cartoonish caricature.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #67)

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 11:55 PM

97. The Noble Journey of *The White Knight* Bjorn you mean -

 

right?

This is the way that those who are familiar with MRA talking points go about dismissing men who stand by women in their efforts to be recognized as entirely human.

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Response to Bjorn Against (Reply #55)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 01:02 AM

144. Yes the pattern

I see it, too. When I discover that a male member who is defensive and dismissive of women lives in Japan, I think, "Ah, okay, I understand." Western Woman, the feminist nemesis! Google "Charisma Man." We Western Women in Japan are used to it.

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Response to betsuni (Reply #144)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 07:45 AM

183. Interesting comment. nt

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Response to betsuni (Reply #144)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 08:16 AM

189. That explains a lot. n/t

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Response to Bjorn Against (Reply #55)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 12:50 PM

259. See? Just like you said. This has nothing to do with bikinis.

"Objectification" is only a jawbone with which to beat up on the people who a) didn't post the photos, b) were ambivalent about them when they were and c) "are missing the point" when they observe that it wasn't a man who posted them.

The issue is the belief that for DU to be welcoming to women, it must be hostile to men; witness the male suicide thread.

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Response to Bjorn Against (Reply #10)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 12:41 PM

256. You're right. It's not about the swimsuit issue.

If it were, then topics like the suicide rate among men wouldn't have attracted the same kind of outrage from the same gang of posters.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #5)

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 10:19 PM

11. And that you actually have to click on the thread to see the stuff that so offends you.

You'd think that as soon as you went to GD you were confronted with porn staring you in the face. But really, you had to read a thread title that said something about a Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue and decide you wanted to read it.

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Response to Comrade Grumpy (Reply #11)

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 10:21 PM

13. Ah, but to these extremists, just like religious right fundies, a women showing

 

her backside in a swimsuit picture is porn.

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Response to quinnox (Reply #13)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 12:07 AM

106. And just who exactly are those extremist religious-right-fundie-like folk

 

here at this site who say that women showing their backside "is porn". And where has that been said?

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Response to quinnox (Reply #13)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 06:22 AM

170. Right. There just isn't the slightest difference between cheesecake stuck on your

--refrigerator door and the same cheesecake stuck on the public bulletin board at your workplace.

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Response to quinnox (Reply #13)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 07:31 AM

179. Agree, we have fanatics on DU that no one wishes to acknowledge

are fanatics.

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Response to quinnox (Reply #13)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 03:39 PM

323. I feel badly for the sub-literacy of idiots and dolts who are unable to make the distinction...

I feel badly for the sub-literacy of idiots and dolts who are unable to make the distinction between respect for others and religious, right-wing fundies.

Of course, I'm not referring to you-- you certainly do know the difference, regardless of whether or not you yet maintain the conflation to add melodrama to an otherwise shallow premise.

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #323)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 09:04 PM

431. oh, right, we wouldn't want to add melodrama to any shallow premises, here, now, would we?

oh, right, we wouldn't want to add melodrama to any shallow premises, here, now, would we?



....certainly not here in the 20th thread about a picture that was posted a grand total of once, nearly two weeks ago.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #5)

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 10:20 PM

12. I didn't know that.

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Response to NaturalHigh (Reply #12)

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 10:23 PM

15. you wouldn't, too many duers glossing over it

 

on purpose, I think. Doesn't fit their agenda.

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Response to quinnox (Reply #15)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 07:34 AM

182. "Doesn't fit their agenda."

Pretty much says it all.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #5)

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 10:40 PM

31. Haha. Thanks.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #5)

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 11:07 PM

52. So? I don't know what motivated her. But she is just one woman who apparently doesn't care.

Many more progressive women do.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #5)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 03:16 AM

166. Yeah and Clarence Thomas says a lot of things

that allow racists to make similar claims

It is still misogynistic. There are misogynistic women - or a woman might post it to discuss the misogyny. The SI does not post that for women.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #5)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 12:15 PM

249. once again, Bonobo entirely misses the point

 

I say purposefully so.

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Response to Bjorn Against (Original post)

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 10:11 PM

6. it is about not behaving like internet adolescents.

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Response to Bjorn Against (Original post)

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 10:13 PM

8. Thank you

well said.

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Response to Bjorn Against (Original post)

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 10:22 PM

14. I'm not sure I understand.

You can trash the thread. You can make the person that posted it vanish with the click of a mouse. But for some reason just the knowledge that a particular collection of O's and 1's exists on a server somewhere causes you that much distress?

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Response to rrneck (Reply #14)

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 10:26 PM

16. Yeah, and you can trash this one, Einstein...

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Response to MrMickeysMom (Reply #16)

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 10:30 PM

21. But I don't find it or upsetting

or insulting. Cut little gif though.

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Response to rrneck (Reply #21)

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 10:32 PM

23. Yes, it is quite "cut"

and pasted.

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Response to MrMickeysMom (Reply #23)

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 10:36 PM

26. "Cut". I get it. Very good. nt

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Response to rrneck (Reply #21)

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 11:35 PM

80. just out of curiosity, what kind pf post would make you....

Relive your worst past trauma?

I'm seriously and genuinely asking.

Not, What kind would irritate you, or piss you off, or make you think anything like, 'Hey! Get Out of My Face, Jerk'.

And not because i want to use it to bash you with. No....

I want you to do a thought experiment, if you're willing.

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Response to BlancheSplanchnik (Reply #80)

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 11:51 PM

94. Birthday posts.

Yep. That's right. Birthday posts. It doesn't have anything to do with age but the death of a loved one. It's a long story for a post, but my birthday and especially having people sing happy birthday in a restaurant is very painful for me. It still hurts after thirty years. It damaged me permanently and has cost me tremendously since. I've suffered near crippling depression because of it. Nobody knows when my birthday is because I don't want to be reminded of it and the last thing I want is cards and, dog forbid, surprise parties. Everybody loves fucking birthdays but me.

So you know what I do about it? I simply trash the thread. If the knowledge that somebody is talking about birthdays on an internet chat board bothers me that much the best thing for me to do is turn off the computer and do something else. Because this is the internet and I can't demand others adjust their behavior to satisfy my personal predilections.

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Response to rrneck (Reply #94)

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 11:58 PM

98. ok. so now, more thought experiment here. ....

Can you imagine that there are a large percentage of people here who had birthday trauma?..... and they talked about it to each other sometimes, because they could relate, and encourage someone if they were having a hard time?

Can you try imagining that, including your own rough feelings about birthdays in the scenario?

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Response to BlancheSplanchnik (Reply #98)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 12:07 AM

107. Sure.

That's what protected groups are for. GD is not a protected group. It's a crucible. And the whole SI controversy is a turf war.

Trash thread/group/forum is your friend and solution.

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Response to rrneck (Reply #107)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 12:19 AM

116. but say you could not get away from the conversations, and that there were so many people

Wwho DID have birthday issues, that they made up around 40-50 percent of the membership. Including you. So that there were frequent opportunities to discuss outside of one particular group.

Try to imagine the scenario...and your type of trauma experience. ..were shared by many many many other people here.

Does that change anything?

Edit: i need to do Lights Out.
I'll read you tomorrow.

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Response to BlancheSplanchnik (Reply #116)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 12:25 AM

121. No.

It's the internet. If it gets that bad I'll find a chat board for the birthday traumatized. And I really don't think half the membership is sexually traumatized to the point that discussions are that upsetting.

Nice talk. See ya later.

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Response to rrneck (Reply #121)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 12:35 AM

126. ok. i tried my best to elicit empathy.

You seem to be unable to bring any out in the open.

Edit: ***Oh Darn. I should have suggested that the traumatizing birthday issues happened frequently in your daily life, and you couldn't get away from it, unless you severely limited your activities out in the world.****

Oh well....
Disappointing talk. If I don't see ya later, I'm good with that.

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Response to BlancheSplanchnik (Reply #126)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 12:45 AM

132. Standard prodedure.

Accuse me of callousness. Let me ask you a question. Is it fair for someone suffering Agoraphobia to recreate in Grand Central Station?

These accusations of insensitivity are simply bullshit. And this manipulative bullshit is the height of insensitivity. It's not fair to demand people self censor to suit your personal traumas or as is more often the case political affectations. If you can't take conversation in public places, especially when people are bending over backwards to make it easy for you, take it to a website that is more to your liking.

Read this subthread and learn. Others will.

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Response to BlancheSplanchnik (Reply #126)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 03:15 AM

165. It was a valiant try...

But unfortunately too many of these guys are way too invested in their rights to act like jerks to listen. It's not that they don't know it bothers/hurts others on the board- they've been told that repeatedly. In fact, that's part of the "fun".

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Response to TDale313 (Reply #165)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 01:26 PM

267. yep, they like it.

thanks for noticing that I tried!

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Response to TDale313 (Reply #165)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 01:51 PM

279. isn't it part and parcel of the way Men have been told how to deal with

emotional pain throughout the ages? to be stoic. to hide the pain. to deny the pain exists.

Isn't that why things need to change?

Hasn't the patriarchal way of doing things affected men, too?

Isn't that what we just witnessed here ... ?

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Response to rrneck (Reply #121)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 12:46 AM

133. It's the internet alright and what usually happens is that women

 

(in the greatest numbers) actually DO leave because they can not or do not want to endure the near constant abuse for talking about their own realities which in turn leaves them disenfranchised from another whole aspect of life.

Yeah, *just leave* reads a lot like *STFU*.

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Response to RBStevens (Reply #133)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 12:54 AM

138. Only if you can't read.

Every time somebody posts something certain feminists don't like, they hear the same STFU. And I mean "STFU that shouldn't appear on this website at all even though I can trash the thread, trash the group, trash the forum, and ignore the person who posted it." Now that's STFU.

How many times have people been told that the things they say and the images they post would be appropriate elsewhere? Do a search, and you'll see. You just don't like it when somebody tells you that. Here's the news. The people complaining about being offended do not own this website. It's about as user friendly as any board can be. If they don't like the product, they can take their business elsewhere and talk all they want.

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Response to rrneck (Reply #138)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 01:01 AM

143. What I'm saying is - bottom line - is that it is women

 

who end up being driven away from forums on the internet. Any and all forums that are not dedicated to mothering anyway.

That is a pretty big STFU message and everyone knows it exists.

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Response to RBStevens (Reply #143)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 01:15 AM

148. No, actually, they aren't.

Here's what the admin of the site has to say about it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1259&pid=5067
Unfortunately, we're getting mixed messages here. We are told that juries are failing by allowing certain posts to stay. But we have the juries themselves who are rendering their own best judgment -- serving as a proxy for the community as a whole -- and deciding that those posts are within bounds. The admins know exactly who serves on these juries, we see how they vote, we know their histories. They are not trolls. They are for the most part long-term DU members in good standing -- men and women. I have alerted on some of these Swimsuit Issue posts myself, and often found my alerts voted down -- by people whose usernames I can see, and whom I know quite well from years on this website. One juror, a woman whose judgment I respect very much, wrote in her jury comments that if I didn't like a post I should use the trash thread function, and said the alerting on DU was "getting absurd." So whose judgment should I defer to?

I want DU to be a welcoming place for everyone. I also want DU to be an honest and open reflection of itself. And more than anything, I don't want to go back to the days where I was the dictator (benevolent or otherwise). I believe that talking is better than not talking. If the members of DU are genuinely getting sick of all this, we have the power to end it though our jury vote. And yet people consistently decline to do so -- even people who I have seen elsewhere expressing their disapproval of such behavior.


Claims about unanimity of disapproval by the membership regarding this issue are simply bullshit. Plain and simple.

The bottom line is that umbrage is a sport here. And the biggest players are losing.

And another bottom line is that GD is not a support group for the ideologically sequestered. It's a crucible. You got a case? You better be ready to prove it.

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Response to rrneck (Reply #148)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 01:25 AM

149. Yeah, I saw that from Skinner -

 

what does that have to do with what I said?

For super clarity I am talking about is/was the internet-at-large, as in *if you don't like it just leave it or trash it or ignore it* which is what women are specifically or implicitly told to do every single day even here.



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Response to RBStevens (Reply #149)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 01:28 AM

150. Wait a minute.

You're making a general statement like that about the internet? Well, the internet isn't a support group either. It's millions of people unburdened from the fear of direct reprisal for what they say. That's the nature of the beast. How in the bloody hell are we supposed to make your feelings safe from that?

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Response to rrneck (Reply #150)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 01:45 AM

151. Okay. I'm gathering that you think the internet is something so different or alien

 

to human communication that it doesn't matter.

That all of the very mean (base) things that people say on the internet have no effect on other people - like the kids who kill themselves after being relentlessly bullied online? Like the girls who are "slut-shamed" out of town after the pictures of their rapes have been posted online? Like women who have been stalked, harassed and doxxed online because somebody had stolen their cellphone?

Who exactly, most often, are feeling "unburdened from the fear of direct reprisal" on the internet? In real life? Answer me that.

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Response to RBStevens (Reply #151)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 02:06 AM

156. Everybody.

Somebody in Pigs Knuckle Arkansas can call somebody else in London a poopy-pants. It's still an insult, and it would still hurt somebody's feelings, but the technology does not exist to preemptively keep Bubba from insulting Alfred.

There is nothing private on the internet. It's not designed to be controlled. In fact, it was designed to survive a nuclear war. There are all kinds of people on the internet, some nice and others not so nice. It sounds like you want to blame the evil men for being mean on the internet. Most of the meanies are probably men. What do you want us to do, build you a nice lady internet?

You know, in times past people had to deal with all sorts and kinds of threats but we are currently living in the most peaceful and prosperous time in human history. It's true. If all you have to worry about is somebody saying something mean to you from across the planet, you don't have any problems. If you want to use a very public resource to market yourself, then get ready to deal with unwelcome attention. It is not humanly possible to support you to the extent you desire. At some point you will just have take responsibility for your own physical and emotional safety.

But maybe I'm wrong. What is your solution for the problem?

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Response to rrneck (Reply #156)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 02:16 AM

160. Solution - respect for other people.

 

And that's all - it's pretty simple.

And with that it's time for me to get some shut-eye.

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Response to RBStevens (Reply #160)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 02:19 AM

162. Yes.

Discretion is the better part of valor. Let me know when you manage that for the bulk of the human race.

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Response to Bjorn Against (Original post)

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 10:26 PM

17. 15 replies?

I see 6. Are there dead people in this thread?

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Response to A-Schwarzenegger (Reply #17)

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 10:43 PM

37. dead to you but, I refuse to make them dead to me. but, yeah I can understand why.

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Response to Bjorn Against (Original post)

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 10:28 PM

19. Thank you, Bjorn nt

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Response to Bjorn Against (Original post)

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 10:28 PM

20. Thank you.

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Response to Bjorn Against (Original post)

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 10:31 PM

22. Bjorn Against, thanks again. I grew up in the era when 'the rule of thumb' was legal in some states.

The law meant a husband could legally beat his wife with a piece of wood no wider than his thumb. That was legal.

Also, I lived back when the phrase 'barefoot and pregnant' was clearly understood as to what a woman's place in society was.

No shoes, not leaving home. Kept in a state of continuous pregnancy, like a cow. No need for a job or education. Born for only one plan.

And later, when the sexual revolution was in play in the sixties, any woman that was not interested in giving her body to a man, meant she was a lesbian, prude or cold fish.

Afterwards having to listen to men on the construction job, ask me, 'Why are you doing this dirty work. You could be making a living lying on your back.'

In other words, life defined by biology, and nothing more. You might as well have not had a brain to begin with.

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Response to freshwest (Reply #22)

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 11:52 PM

96. godDAMN, that's a sickening comment from your fellow worker.

Jezus H. Christ.

It would take a very evolved, empathic man to undrtstand just what a repulsive idea,.... image, ......concept that is.

Godddddammmmmit that infuriates me, all these willfully obtuse trolls. Denying involvement. Misrepresenting. Spinning every word to fit their agenda. Denying that they're enjoying jerking our chains. Personally getting thrills out of harrassing anyone who doesnt enable them.

And most of them are still here. Never any consequences.


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Response to BlancheSplanchnik (Reply #96)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 12:52 AM

137. Ah, ha, you should have heard my comeback to that one. I was kicking ass and taking no prisoners.

Had to put up with a little discrimination growing up, so I didn't take it personally.

Like the day in high school when the outreach from a new magnet school came and wanted to get volunteers to transfer. That day, they were offering us to take professional photography courses for a career.

I'd been doing a bit of amateur photography and they asked students to come forward in the auditorium to sign up. The place seated abut a thousand kids. No one went up, and I decided, 'Hey, give it a try.'

I was standing below the stage and the people on the stage started laughing. No, I couldn't sign up. Girls were not allowed to take the course. None of the boys wanted to take it, so they went back emptyhanded.

Sone of the school kids in the auditorium started laughing too because I should have just known better. So I just walked to my seat as if nonchalant, rolling my eyes and sporting my patented look of 'Like I give a shit.'

That followed through in college, when there were some subjects I was very good at, but was told 'No one will hire you to do that, they don't hire women.'

After a certain amount of this, I decided I wouldn't take no for an answer. It never leaves you and some take it personally.

Not all of us are the same type of personality. At times I read some of the threads that the women comment on, and say how threatened they felt in some situations, etc. I designed my life to eliminate chances of that happening.

When I was a kid, I had fist fights with boys who called me names, or teased me or my friends. But one has to measure the level of threat, and some battles you have to walk away from to survive.

As far as this BS going on here, it's more telling of the poster than the person being attacked. As Skinner says something to the effect, of it's out there for everyone to see what kind of person you are.



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Response to freshwest (Reply #22)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 09:26 AM

202. Oh my god

freshwest - a little side bar here . . . There is a grace and dignity to your posts. It's part of who you are and it 'shines through'. The idea that someone would say something like that to you? That goes after your dignity.

And sometimes I think - perhaps that's point of some folks. To go after a woman's dignity . . .

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Response to Bjorn Against (Original post)

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 10:32 PM

24. Thank you for trying to understand.

That really means everything. You sound a lot like my husband. He is a white male who always says it's not up to him to decide what's offensive to others. If it offends them, it offends them. He doesn't want to offend people. For that reason, he is a very popular person, and I am so lucky to have him. Your attitude should be the rule on a progressive site.

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Response to Bjorn Against (Original post)

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 10:37 PM

27. The comments that were made in post after post were abusive.

The verbal abuse that has rained down on the women of DU has been excessive and extreme.

Verbal abuse can be just as debilitating as physical abuse. The wounds they inflict are hidden. The scars that it leaves behind are immeasurable.

The attacks on women here, anywhere are a form of violence.

Thank you Bjorn, for your support and sensitivity.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #27)

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 10:39 PM

29. Couldn't agree more.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #27)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 12:12 AM

111. yes. abuse. And sexism trolls obtusely insist it's about taking their

guns porn away. ....sorry. the mindset is so parallel, I got them confused.

They yowl that women, feminists hate men, are trying to Emasculate them. Force them to be prudes.

No, idiots. It's about you trolls abusing us purposefully with awful head games and dismissive trivializing. And sarcastic whacks and language far uglier than what you claim you *sob, whine*, got called ONCE by a mean woman.....and phony alerts and misunderstanding juries, and ad nauseum directed at us. Relentlessly.

Because you claim you were DISRESPECTED. ONCE. By a sister of the order of....blah blah blah..



Ugh. There. I vented.


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Response to BlancheSplanchnik (Reply #111)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 12:24 AM

119. Noooo, Blanche

you are not confused as you well know. You are spot on.

I have stayed away from the posts, they hurt to much and I could not post. Bjorns are the only ones I have commented on.

We know all about head games and the dismissive nature of their comments. We've lived it.

Vent away anytime Blanche. You do it well.

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Response to BlancheSplanchnik (Reply #111)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 07:04 AM

174. "idiots"

Wow. More respectful discussion. Awesome.

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Response to BlancheSplanchnik (Reply #111)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 10:13 AM

210. "DISRESPECTED. ONCE" Oh, please.

...language far uglier than what you claim...

In recent days DU men have been openly called pedophiles, asses, idiots, trolls, and sobbing whiners, not to mention any number of catch-all "misogynist" accusations.

Please provide links to the "far uglier" language that you imagine men on DU to be using against women. Presumably the language isn't ugly when one of the "sisters of the order" uses it.

phony alerts and misunderstanding juries, and ad nauseum directed at us. Relentlessly.
I'm going to call BS on this, though I'm sure you don't care and will probably call me an idiot or a troll.

What exactly are "phony alerts?" Skinner has stated outright that "alert-stalking" doesn't happen, so your complaint can't be about that. And if a post gets hidden, that means that at least five people in the process agreed it should be hidden. Does this happen often, in your view? How would you know? On what basis do you declare these alerts phony?

Are you upset about people alerting on posts that you don't think shouldn't be alerted-on? Well, that's up to them, isn't it? That's what the jury is for, after all.

And isn't it funny that juries are only "misunderstanding" when it comes to hiding the aggressive attacks by "sisters of the order?" When they hide posts by pedophilic idiots, sobbing asses and whining trolls, is it because they understand perfectly?

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Response to Orrex (Reply #210)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 01:20 PM

264. not calling all men those things. just those who behave that way.

Identifying behaviors for what they are--nothing wrong with that.

And Skinner says "alert-stalking" doesnt exist? He's a smart guy, but he's not infallible. He doesn't have such an experience to personally identify with.

What I and others are saying is not the same as aiming explosive rage or contemptful jabs at any sexism discussion that is brought up for consideration .

Reacting so defensively to descriptions of how sexist behavior looks from my side of the street says more about you than it does about me.


Here's a window into what women face constantly. This isn't about you personally--see link below. Just like Black people describing life with racism aren't against you personally. It's cultural norms we're talking about. And I'm ok with using angry and frustrated language to describe those lashing out in blind rage against the mention of sexism.

If you're up to reading a very accurate post....
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4560596

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Response to BlancheSplanchnik (Reply #264)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 02:01 PM

288. You know who Skinner is, right?

And Skinner says "alert-stalking" doesnt exist? He's a smart guy, but he's not infallible. He doesn't have such an experience to personally identify with.
Skinner is absolutely in a position to determine if alert-stalking is going on. His direct access to the process (seeing who is alerting on whom) easily trumps your anecdotal experience and the grievance of hostile DUers with visible transparency pages.

not calling all men those things. just those who behave that way. Identifying behaviors for what they are--nothing wrong with that.
First of all, that's a straw man, because I didn't claim that you called all men those things. Further, you understand that that's deeply problematic, don't you? By your logic, I am free to use "the b-word" for women "who behave that way." Certainly calling someone "the b-word" isn't as offensive as accusing someone of pedophilia, is it?

In addition, even if you're not personally using those terms for all men, this isn't all about you. It's about those "sisters of the order" who feel free to fling those terms indiscriminately to attack men with whom they disagree. Why are they given special permission to use that terminology? And are men required simply to accept it?

You also claimed that men were "DISRESPECTED. ONCE." This is simply false, because the attacks are commonplace. You can't make specific accusations on one hand and then hide behind blanket disclaimers on the other. At best, that's intellectual dishonesty.

Reacting so defensively to descriptions of how sexist behavior looks from my side of the street says more about you than it does about me.
Baloney. Let me clarify: that's simply an attempt at distraction, and it's baloney. You can dismiss literally any claim at all simply by accusing the claimant of being "defensive," and it has the added bonus of absolving you of any need to back up your own claims. In other words, you're free to call men anything you want, and if they object to it they're simply being "defensive." Baloney.

By your logic, the strong negative reaction to the SI cover says more about those who object to it than it does about the SI cover. Do you agree?

I read that WoW post last night, and I hate to tell you this but it's not news to anyone who's been online at all during the past 20 years or so. It is ugly, and it is unfortunate, but assholes (both male and female) have drawn great courage from their keyboard anonymity for decades. Still, such ugliness is very rare on DU and is typically dealt with quite severely.

And it certainly doesn't justify the attacks by women here on DU, any more than you'd be justified in slapping a beer out of somebody's hand at a bar simply because you'd once been propositioned at a frat party.

And I'm ok with using angry and frustrated language to describe those lashing out in blind rage against the mention of sexism.
I provided specific links to examples of women personally attacking men. Surely you can provide links to examples of this "blind rage?" If not, then on what basis should anyone believe your claim, especially if it is inconsistent with their own experience?

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Response to Orrex (Reply #288)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 02:21 PM

296. + a metric fuckton

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Response to Orrex (Reply #288)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 02:45 PM

313. +100 n/t

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Response to Orrex (Reply #288)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 02:26 PM

498. Orrex--this is a pretty dense post. I want to reply when I have some time

To focus.

Been busy with other stuff.


Thanks
B

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #27)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 12:22 AM

118. +1

 

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Response to Bjorn Against (Original post)

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 10:37 PM

28. how do you do this

If you want to go look at the swimsuit issue go ahead, but when you do so do it in a way that is respectful to others.
how do you look at a magazine in a way that is disrespectful of others?


If others tell you they don't want to see it there is absolutely no reason to show it to them,
i dont recall anyone making anyone view that page. why cant people who are offended by women in thongs just trash the thread instead of all the angst

people get upset when the male priviledge post start making the rounds. let's avoid those too

people dont like the slam potus threads let's stop that

i agree that people should be respected but someone posting something that upsets another is not neccessarily being disrespectful to that person in fact if someone is upset by a thread wouldnt it be polite to avoid and trash the thread ?

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Response to leftyohiolib (Reply #28)

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 10:43 PM

36. You can read a magazine in a way that is respectful to others by not shoving it in their faces

No one has been able to give me a single good reason why the swimsuit issue needs to be posted here, there are plenty of other sites for that and this site has never been about discussing T&A pictures.

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Response to Bjorn Against (Reply #36)

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 11:19 PM