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Thu Mar 22, 2012, 12:03 PM

"We are drilling all over the place."

Wish I didn't have to hear this from Obama.

24 replies, 2028 views

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Arrow 24 replies Author Time Post
Reply "We are drilling all over the place." (Original post)
MoonRiver Mar 2012 OP
TheMastersNemesis Mar 2012 #1
MoonRiver Mar 2012 #2
Snake Alchemist Mar 2012 #15
badtoworse Mar 2012 #3
grntuscarora Mar 2012 #4
Marrah_G Mar 2012 #5
badtoworse Mar 2012 #6
Marrah_G Mar 2012 #7
badtoworse Mar 2012 #9
MoonRiver Mar 2012 #13
badtoworse Mar 2012 #16
grntuscarora Mar 2012 #17
badtoworse Mar 2012 #18
grntuscarora Mar 2012 #22
badtoworse Mar 2012 #24
XemaSab Mar 2012 #19
badtoworse Mar 2012 #20
spanone Mar 2012 #8
badtoworse Mar 2012 #10
gratuitous Mar 2012 #11
badtoworse Mar 2012 #12
raouldukelives Mar 2012 #14
shanti Mar 2012 #23
Johonny Mar 2012 #21

Response to MoonRiver (Original post)

Thu Mar 22, 2012, 12:21 PM

1. Me Too

I feel the same way. I believe that Obama is being forced by circumstances to go along with drilling. If we did not have so many stupid people in this country that drilling will not get us out of this mess, he might not be doing what he is doing.

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Response to TheMastersNemesis (Reply #1)

Thu Mar 22, 2012, 12:22 PM

2. Honestly, I would prefer looking hard at nuclear power rather than drilling.

But I would most prefer wind, solar etc.

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Response to TheMastersNemesis (Reply #1)

Thu Mar 22, 2012, 03:14 PM

15. Doubtful. He just knows which side his bread is buttered on. nt

 

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Response to MoonRiver (Original post)

Thu Mar 22, 2012, 12:38 PM

3. That drilling is a very good thing

 

It's driven the price of natural gas down to levels not seen in more than a decade - about $2.50 and it may go lower. That low price is forecast to continue for the foreseeable future and may give domestic companies that use lots of gas and NGL's a competitive advantage over foreign companies becaue the price of gas is higher in many competing economies.

Renewable are still expensive and we don't have the technology in place for widespread integration onto the grid.

You should be cheering for this.

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Response to badtoworse (Reply #3)

Thu Mar 22, 2012, 01:19 PM

4. Well, speaking as a resident of one of the many "sacrifice zones", I'm not cheering.


“The corporate quest for scarce resources will become more rapacious, more violent. Arable land in Africa will continue to be grabbed to provide food and fuel to wealthier nations. Drought and famine will continue to be used as a pretext to push genetically modified seeds, driving farmers further into debt. We will attempt to transcend peak oil and gas by using increasingly risky technologies to extract the last drops, turning ever larger swaths of our globe into sacrifice zones.”

-Naomi Klein

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Response to badtoworse (Reply #3)

Thu Mar 22, 2012, 01:20 PM

5. I suggest you check out a documentary called Gasland n/t

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Response to Marrah_G (Reply #5)

Thu Mar 22, 2012, 01:44 PM

6. I'm familiar with it.

 

I've been in the electric power business for 30 years and natural gas is closely linked. I follow shale gas developments as part of my job.

There is a lot of study work being done on the matter and a lot of conflicting data on the matter. There are a lot of people with agendas presenting one side or the other of the story and leaving out what doesn't fit their purpose. Gasland is in that category. You need to follow closely and read what everyone is saying and draw your own conclusions.

My own opinion is that there are risks with shale gas development, as there are with any energy technology. I believe they are manageable and with proper cementing of the wells and careful; handling of the fracking fluids the risk can be minimized. Particular should be taken in watersheds, avoiding them if possible. In my view the potential benefits far outweigh the risks.

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Response to badtoworse (Reply #6)

Thu Mar 22, 2012, 01:55 PM

7. The problem is that precautions to address environmental concerns are not being done

We don't even know what is in the fracking fluid. The companies don't have to tell us.

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Response to Marrah_G (Reply #7)

Thu Mar 22, 2012, 01:57 PM

9. The situation is changing and effective regulations are being implemented at the state level

 

The EPA does not have authority in this area.

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Response to badtoworse (Reply #9)

Thu Mar 22, 2012, 03:11 PM

13. You seem to be a shill for fossil fuel energy industry.

No?

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Response to MoonRiver (Reply #13)

Thu Mar 22, 2012, 08:01 PM

16. I'm a shill for the country getting more competitive

 

I'm also a shill for producing more primary energy ourselves and sending less money to people who hate us and want to kill us. A low cost natural gas supply will give us an ability to compete with countries where labor might be cheaper, but gas costs are higher. Industries that are heavy users of gas will have a reason to invest here which will create jobs.

Natural gas is clean, a lot cleaner than the diesel that runs our trucks and buses. We have the technology to use compressed natural gas to run our heavy trucks and buses which would realize enormous improvements in air quality. There was a proposed amendment to the Transportation Bill last week to implement this, but the amendment was defeated. That was unfortunate.

I heard today that the cash price for natural gas had dipped below $2 per MCF. That is very cheap and while it may not stay that cheap long term, it is forecast to remain very reasonably priced (less that $5) for at least 10 years. As a point of reference, the price was about $8.50 in 2005. We have abundant supplies and should make use of this resource as much as we can.

There is a view on DU that fracking will invariably result in polluted water, but I strongly disagree. This is a minority opinion, but I am covinced that shale gas can be safely developed with hydraulic fracturing and directional drilling. The well casings are key and the few issues we've seen with water quality appear related to improper cementing of the casings rather than endemic to all fracking. Proper handling and disposal of fracking fluids is important and I think appropriate buffers around sensitive water sheds should also be required. No energy technology is without environmental impacts and fracking is no exception. There will be mishaps with it just as there are and will be with coal, nuclear, hydro, wind, solar and everything else. The potential benefits far outweigh the risks in my opinion.

My background is the electric power business, so I know a lot about what's going on with various fuels (natural gas and coal) and different generating technologies (conventional plus renewables like wind and solar. I'm not opposed to renewables, but at trhe same time, I dont see them as a panacea that will solve everything. Even with recent drops in price, they are still expensive and we don't have the infrastrucure in place to put large amounts of uncontrollable renewable generation on the power grid and keep it stable. There are people here who believe we can generate all our power from renewable sources, but that is just not possible in any foreseeable timeframe.

Fossil fuels are not going away in the foreseeable future. DOE's Energy Information Administration projects that we will still be generating more than 30% of our electricity from coal in 2035 with natural gas providing about 45%. IRC, the projection was about 15% from renewables by then.

I'm not a shill for fossil fuels, I'm just being realistic - we can't get along without them.

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Response to badtoworse (Reply #16)

Thu Mar 22, 2012, 08:46 PM

17. If I may.

I appreciate your calm and reasonable tone in presenting your point of view. You are a good spokesman for your side.

Honestly, as hard as I try to wrap my head around the science of it all, I can't. I'm simply not a scientist.

What bothers me most about what's happening in PA, even above the environmental concerns (which are many), is that Pennsylvanians themselves have had little to no say in the transformation that is taking place in this state. And PA is most definitely being transformed. So I have to ask, why wasn't I allowed to vote on the future I want to see for the place I call home? A beautiful, rural way of life is being destroyed, and none of us who live here have had any say in it. Damn the gas companies to hell for that and damn Tom Corbett, too.

All I'm saying is, where was the referendum? Where was the choice? If the good people of PA, in their wisdom, had decided that the land between Pittsburgh and Phila. had to be sacrificed in the name of "energy independence", I would have disagreed mightily, but somehow I'd have managed to accept it. But there was no referendum, no vote. We haven't been allowed to decide the fate of our Commonwealth. It is being decided for us, without us.

And that makes me angry beyond words.

Just my two cents.

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Response to grntuscarora (Reply #17)

Thu Mar 22, 2012, 11:10 PM

18. You are raising a different issue

 

If I understand the situation in Pennsylvania, virtually all of the drilling is being done on private land where the owner has leased his property to the drilling company. Gas and oil production is a lawful use of property that has been onging in PA for more than a hundred years, but you would like voters to have had the opportunity to change that and make it illegal.

It's a tough issue because individual landowners have rights too. Absent a very compelling argument, I don't like the idea of the government telling a landowner what he can and can't do with his land. It makes no difference (at least to me) whether the government acts on laws passed by the legislature or by the voters. It's still private property and in my opinion, it's the landowners decision whether he wants to lease it to a gas company. At the same time, the landowner does NOT have the right to do things with his property that impact his neighbors in a harmful way. That is one of the reasons effective regulation of drilling and fracking are needed - to prevent that.

It's a lot like what can happen with wind farms. A wind turbine is big - about 400 feet tall and some people think they're ugly. Aside from aesthetics, they make noise, cause flicker and can be harmful to wildlfie (birds and bats). You can have situations where someone leases his property to a wind developer who does a poor job of siting the turbines. The neighbers get pretty upset if they have to put up with those impact for the next 30 years, especially when they know their neighbor is making a lot of money from rent and royalty payments. It can be a pretty divisive issue and I would imagine the same is true when someone leases his land for drilling.

I do sympathize. No one like to see an environment they love changed. I hope the confidence I have in the industry's ability to do it safely is justified.

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Response to badtoworse (Reply #18)

Thu Mar 22, 2012, 11:59 PM

22. I'm not raising a different issue.

While I recognize that individual property owners may do as they please, 700,000 acres of State Forest has been leased to drilling companies. (Some of that, I believe, had been leased under Rendell.) State Forest is public property that should not be handed over to drillers without the approval of the citizens of PA, imo. State Parks, too, are considered fair game in the fracking frenzy, and even the Fish and Boat Commission has joined the act and is planning to lease portions of PA waterways to drillers. I'm rushed and tired, so I pulled a link to a 2011 article. but I have no doubt even more public acreage has been gifted to the drillers, without referendum, since then.

http://stateimpact.npr.org/pennsylvania/tag/department-of-conservation-and-natural-resources/page/2/


In addition, local municipalities are no longer allowed to zone out gas drilling operations under recently passed legislation. Communities must accept drilling or be damned.


It is quite obvious you are unfamiliar with what is going on here in PA.

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Response to grntuscarora (Reply #22)

Fri Mar 23, 2012, 10:42 AM

24. My interest is mainly in the environmental impacts and regulatory areas.

 

The water issues around Dimock are of great interest to me, as well as what's going in Pavillion, WY and in Colorado. I don't get involved in commercial arrangements to get drilling rights. I was unaware that Pennsylvania had leased that much state land to drillers and I agree with you - the public should have had a say. Were there at least hearings?

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Response to badtoworse (Reply #6)

Thu Mar 22, 2012, 11:26 PM

19. Everywhere is a watershed

The middle of Nebraska is a watershed. So is the middle of Nevada.

The only areas that are arguably not watersheds are areas with extensive limestone topography but even that water goes somewhere.

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Response to XemaSab (Reply #19)

Thu Mar 22, 2012, 11:31 PM

20. Care needs to be taken everywhere

 

Some watersheds are more sensitive than others.

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Response to badtoworse (Reply #3)

Thu Mar 22, 2012, 01:57 PM

8. good luck with that one

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Response to spanone (Reply #8)


Response to badtoworse (Reply #3)

Thu Mar 22, 2012, 02:18 PM

11. As long as you're drawing a paycheck from it and don't have to live with the results

Yeah, it's very cheering. Too bad the oil pumped doesn't go to the domestic market but instead gets shipped around the planet to fetch the highest price on the spot market. So the price of these commodities never goes down for consumers, no matter how cheap the price is. The poor people (and they are poor) who are in the spoliation areas? Too bad, so sad. Please die quickly and don't burden the system by lingering.

I guess I'll wait for my pom-poms to get back from the cleaners before I start cheering more environmental rape.

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Response to gratuitous (Reply #11)

Thu Mar 22, 2012, 02:23 PM

12. I'm focused on what's going on with natural gas, an important industrial and powerplant fuel

 

Check out what's happened in that market and get back to me.

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Response to gratuitous (Reply #11)

Thu Mar 22, 2012, 03:13 PM

14. It's not that big of deal. We have fresh water to spare.

Chances are not much of it will become contaminated. Or at least, while were alive. Let the next generations deal with it while we luxuriate in the profits taken from their suffering now I say.

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Response to badtoworse (Reply #3)

Fri Mar 23, 2012, 12:02 AM

23. right, we should love fracking

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Response to MoonRiver (Original post)

Thu Mar 22, 2012, 11:45 PM

21. That Apollo project of alternative energy research

seems a long time ago and very far away from reality. Certainly a house that passes Paul Ryan's budget is never going there. I wonder if that 2008 Obama idea will show up again in 2012.

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