The Russia bashing has backfired.

[go west young man]

The results of the West bashing Russia during this Olympics via Der Spiegel.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/editorial-on-western-bashing-of-sochi-olympics-a-952638.html

You have actually hurt the LGBT cause over there and even Putin opponents are pissed off with all the Russia dissing. Sadly your approach has not helped LGBT in their quest for equal rights which they rightly deserve. The lack of understanding of Russia at DU and in the MSM is a large part of the problem. What did everyone expect when you kept putting them all down? In actuality the LGBT loud approach at Russia during this Olympics has done more to help reignite the Cold War than Dick Cheney himself could have done. I bet the MIC is loving the LGBT community right now. Personally I think the media used everybody.

Excerpt from the article: An Affront to All Russians

Even if most Sochi bashing is directed at Putin, it still hits all Russians. Olympic fever is rampant in Russia and 69 percent of those surveyed are pleased about the games, with two out of three following the events on television. Even Russians who protested two years ago against Putin's return to the Kremlin feel the criticism is excessive. They are very aware of corruption and environmental damage. What they are sensitive about right now, though, is the constant and unfair barrage of ridicule from the West.

The Russians are perplexed by the world, and it's not their fault. They're celebrating a party in Sochi. But we're the party poopers waiting for any chance we can find to say: "Haha, the Russians have screwed up again!"
Marat Gelman, Moscow's best known art gallery owner, once claimed that things are only right in the world for the West if bad news is coming out of Russia.

I hope Gelman is wrong.


Here's some more examples.

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/sports/Column+Sochi+schadenfreude/9491186/story.html Major U.S. based scholars on Russia agree the schadenfreude has hurt the cause.

And New Republic. http://www.newrepublic.com/article/116507/russians-hit-back-west-cool-it-olympic-schadenfreude

[Fred Sanders]

1. Good news from other nations seems to make Americans inexplicably sad, even angry. Strange.

[Cha]

71. "Good news"? Russia's Laws Against Gays in Russia is "good news"? Tell us

more.

Your statement is ignorant. Good News from other Nations is Awesome. fucking homophobia not so much.

[Codeine]

235. InfoWars and PrisonPlanet?

You'll need to do better than that, TrutherBot.

[OKNancy]

2. I've read these editorials before. I think you posted them already

But these are opinions.
My opinion is that I can see the point about the toilets etc... but I will reserve the right to trash Russia and any Russian who does not support gay rights. I trash the Republicans in my own country and I sure as hell will say shitty things about Russian policy.
I also disagree with your statement that criticism hurts the LBGT cause.

[Aerows]

16. Oh, I fully agree with you here

"criticism hurts the LGBT cause". It was criticism and finally getting enough of intolerance and standing up for ourselves that even lessened the criticism in the first place. That and a lot of blood, the blood of gay people, being spilled for people to wake the fuck up and realize that bigotry harms everyone.

[Xithras]

3. Some of the bashing has gone way over the line.

It's one thing to bash Putin and the Russian government, but a lot of commentators have crossed some important lines and have started slamming the Russian people themselves and Russia as a whole, an act that embraces the very bigotry that they are supposed to be standing against. We had a poster right here on DU who was justifying insults against the Russian people by claiming that they are responsible for the actions of their government.

Assad was technically elected too, but I'd never blame the Syrian people for the crimes he has committed. Sane people draw lines between governments and nations. Bush did not represent you or I.

It's one thing to attack Putin or the government he represents. It's another thing entirely to attack an entire nation of people, or to insult and demean people who have little control over their governments actions. Too many people have forgotten that.

Russia is a beautiful nation with a fascinating history and culture, and its people are as varied in personality as any other nation on Earth. I want to see the anti LGBT laws rolled back more than most, but attacking and alienating an entire nation of people, or attempting to turn them into some kind of international laughingstock, is NOT the right way to win influence.

[Aerows]

11. Bush got elected in our country, technically

So the US is responsible for unleashing him on the world .

[Xithras]

21. Yes, but how much responsibility do you, as a person, share for his actions?

That's really the thing I struggle with when I see these broad brush attacks against the Russian people. Attacking an entire people for the actions of a nations political leadership is bigotry.

I have no love for Putin and have spent much of my life fighting for equality, but some of the rhetoric over the past few weeks has been ugly. It's largely why I've sat this fight out and have just avoided discussions about Russia and the Olympics both online and in person. "Ugly for a cause" is still ugly, even when I agree with the cause.

[YoungDemCA]

42. I think it's important to understand what causes bigotry-of any kind-to exist

What are the historical factors or conditions in a particular culture or country, what has been the role of religion, what has been the role of political institutions, and so on.

More to the point: Is there an existing power structure that benefits from bigotry against and oppression of certain groups or peoples?

There are no simple answers to these questions.

[OwnedByCats]

96. Totally agree

The people of Russia cannot be held responsible. I lived in Europe when Bush was president and some picked on the American people, rather than just our government, and it wasn't fair. You can't assume the citizens of a country is lock step with their government. Of course some will be, but you can't broad brush everyone.

[Silent3]

127. The Russian opinion polls I've read...

...say that the Russian public is generally strongly behind Putin's anti-gay bigotry.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/08/05/russias-anti-gay-laws-in-line-with-publics-views-on-homosexuality/

I've seen worse numbers than the 74% in the above poll when the question has been about being against gay marriage, or supportive of repressive laws.

This is a deep-seated Russian problem, not just a matter of Putin being in office.

[go west young man]

148. I address these polls below.

Using the CIA fact book on Russia for context.

[OwnedByCats]

157. Didn't you know that just because you lived in Russia

doesn't mean you know jack about the country? lol, I'm being sarcastic of course. I'm more willing to take your experience into account than polls. Unless I can personally go to every household in Russia and poll everyone, I can't make an assessment of a certain percentage that are against homosexuality. How do I know these polls are accurate? I don't and neither does anyone else. I found other things in that poll suspect, like the alcohol one. Makes me laugh.

[OwnedByCats]

155. I don't go by polls

Everyone is an individual. Even if most of the country is against it, there are still those that are not. The government makes the laws in Russia, it's them you target, not the people of Russia in general. Broad brushing is wrong, I don't care what your little polls say.

[Silent3]

176. Who said anything about "targeting" anyone?

Or not treating people as individual cases?

My comment was only to make the point that Putin and other Russian leaders are hardly coming out of the blue with their anti-gay measures. They're exploiting prejudices that are already well entrenched.

[polly7]

13. Thank you! Very well stated. nt.

[geek tragedy]

14. No, the reality is that Russians as a group are virulent homophobes and the anti-GLBT

laws are there to satisfy the general public's bigotry.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/08/05/russias-anti-gay-laws-in-line-with-publics-views-on-homosexuality/

Putin also recently signed another law that restricts the adoption of Russian children by people living in countries that recognize same-sex marriage.

The laws seem to align with Russia’s rejection of homosexuality. About three-quarters (74%) of Russians said homosexuality should not be accepted by society, while just 16% said it should be accepted, according to a recent Pew Research Center survey.

http://thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/nearly-three-out-of-four-in-russia-believe-homosexuality-morally-unacceptable/news/2014/02/12/83081



They're bigots, Jim.

[freshwest]

23. Agreed - but we have a lot of work to do with a goodly portion of the USA:

http://www.rightwingwatch.org/category/topics/anti-gay

http://www.rightwingwatch.org/category/topics/marriage-equality

Those lists of stories barely scratches the surface on this nation's own homophobia. And the laws that have been passed that mirror Russia's.

[geek tragedy]

27. There is bigotry in the US, but the bigots are losing the culture war here, badly.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/30/the-daily-show-alabama-mississippi-gay-video_n_4177839.html

In contrast, homophobia in Russia is on the rise.

If the Russians want respect from the international community, they'll have to stop being such ignorant bigots.

More to the point, bigotry everywhere is the enemy. US, Nigeria, Russia, Iran.

[freshwest]

35. But the regressives are really doubling down... Still look at VA... That's good news:

Elections Matter! "Virginia Senate Votes to Repeal Forced Ultrasound Law"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4490191

Someintes, the news of all the negativity and the big money from the dark side is simply overwhelming. I can only hope that we will continue to progress in all of this.

[go west young man]

72. The chart must be skewed...

because every Russian I've ever met loves gambling. Hell every hotel in Moscow has a casino in the lobby. And look at #5 drinking alcohol. That one has me spitting out my beer. Have you ever been to Russia? Or The Turkish Riviera where they vacation? Good god man! Every single meal includes non stop toasts and vodka shots with every bite of food. A meal lasts for 6 hours and the vodka flows non stop for men and women alike. Something is definitely out of whack with these charts. Russian love their vodka is the truest of all Russian stereotyes! 44% against drinking this chart says. That's definitely not accurate.

[go west young man]

74. And don't get me started

on the pre marital sex! That PEW chart is definitely not accurate.

[FrodosPet]

146. The little old church ladies, the broken alcoholics, their families

Just because you didn't see them, and weren't looking, doesn't mean they were not there in their homes, churches, community centers, etc.

[go west young man]

147. CIA stats on Russian population.

Scroll down to people. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/rs.html

Russia is largely atheist by the way due to 80 years of communism so the church theory doesn't work. The CIA fact book notes this. Young people are not religious at all. It's usually the oldest Russians that go to Orthodox churches. Only 26% of the population is above 55 years of age. Of that 26%, half are most likely male, and every older male I've ever met drank vodka and I've met tons of em. Middle aged Russian women all love wine. Russians love casinos, they relate them to high end fashionable living. The PEW poll is definitely off and doesn't reflect real Russia in any way that I can agree with except possibly the divorce issue.

[arely staircase]

25. yeah we uppity people demanding our rights

dissing this great authoritarian nation.

[Xithras]

37. Never said it was great.

I have no problem with demanding our rights. Revolution is an ugly thing. I just have a strong aversion to broad brushes.

[arely staircase]

159. I have a problem with bigotry. Institutionalized bigotry like that of the Russian government

and popular bigotry in that it is supported by large majorities of the Russian population. If the brush seems broad perhaps it is because the canvas is so large.

[freshwest]

4. After reading GT's posts: Yup, fuck Russian homophobia, racism and... n/t

Last edited Wed Feb 12, 2014, 08:29 PM - Edit history (1)

[Bluenorthwest]

7. yes but you are straight so you see 'Russia and the US' while I am gay and i see straight

culture as an international oppressor of gay culture and enemy of our equality. There are no borders, no nation is exempt. Straights everywhere need to grow up, drop the stupid and join the 21st. US and Russian straight communities are both backward ass and in need of correction.

[Aerows]

12. I don't disagree with you

seeing as I am gay myself, but I also believe that maybe we need to see the Russian people independent of their leader. After all, Bush was ours.

[geek tragedy]

17. problem is, if anything, Putin is less homophobic than the general public.

He's pandering to a country where 75% of the population is actively bigoted towards GLBT people.

[Aerows]

18. That's sad.

Really sad .

[okaawhatever]

49. I read somewhere that Putin did this to appease his ultra right-wing supporters. Don't know how true

it is, but I think Putin is politically savvy enough to know this wouldn't play well in the international press.

[go west young man]

91. See my posts above

in regards to Geek Tragedys charts.

[Ohio Joe]

5. 'Don't call us on our persecution of LGBT people or we will persecute LGBT people more?'

Yeah.... I've heard that before.

[theHandpuppet]

163. +100

Yep, I've heard that old broken record before, too.

[Bluenorthwest]

6. Straight folks who lecture gay people that we are opposing Straight bigotry the wrong way

so maybe they'll just do more bigotry are indulging in a homophobic tactic that is old, tired, bogus and inconsequential. Get a new routine. Find a new way to defend your Straight Culture's neurotic need to attack gay people for existing. The lecture thing is so very 1993, it's over, you need to go woodshed some new material.

[Lex]

20. "See, you hurt yourself by standing up for yourself."

I agree. It's just bigoted bullshit hoping to scare protestors.

[Jamastiene]

31. +1000000

Yup.

[theHandpuppet]

165. Yep, the same old matra used against workers in this country

Trying to scare them away from joining unions. That old broken record doesn't play anymore.

[arely staircase]

26. thank you nt

[Jamastiene]

29. +1000000

[go west young man]

67. Except that... in another thread

you and I already went around on this subject and your aware my sexual orientation (not that it was your business) isn't entirely straight. I don't enjoy putting people in nice little boxes and believe there is plenty of bi or gay in all of us. Ya never know what your gonna get during the great cosmic splattering that results from sex.

[Le Taz Hot]

161. +1

[geek tragedy]

8. leave Putin and the homophobic bigots aloooooone.

[OKNancy]

10. LOL

[freshwest]

24. Yeah, one of my favorites! Geek knows where to find 'em. n/t

[Jamastiene]

30. EXACTLY!

That is EXACTLY how that post sounded.

[get the red out]

45. YES, and I LOVE IT

Perfect.

[FSogol]

59. +1. LOL. n/t

[Cha]

73. Really. That's the fucking height of idiocy.

[Nika]

117. great answer to the hand wringing in the editorials covered in the header.

Thanks.

[snooper2]

185. perfect LOL

[malaise]

9. Good read

Rec

[go west young man]

88. Thanks.

Large excerpt from the Ottawa article above:

The ethical problem for us is that, while we are quick to condemn the Russians, we accept no responsibility for the regime. We didn’t create Vladimir Putin, but he lays bare our own hypocrisy and amnesia.

When it comes to Russia, we forget that the West missed an opportunity to form a partnership with our old enemy after the end of the Cold War. For this failure, we blame the recalcitrant Russians.

To Stephen F. Cohen of New York University, one of the world’s leading Russian scholars, the Americans and their allies are at fault. He thinks that we have missed opportunities to engage the Russians in a way that would have eased their transition from communism and authoritarianism.

In the 1990s, Cohen says, Bill Clinton took an “aggressive triumphalist approach,” which imposed Western economic policies on Russia, moved NATO into Russia’s security zone and broke strategic arms promises.

After Sept. 11, 2001, for example, when Putin provided assistance against the Taliban in Afghanistan, the United States withdrew from the 1972 Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty. Cohen calls the treaty “the linchpin of (Russia’s) nuclear security.”

Did we think of the consequences when NATO (of which Canada is a charter member) decided to expand east and build missile defence installations near Russia’s borders? Did we think as we broadened our own sphere of political and military influence, that Russia, with its understandable insecurity, would want a zone of its own?

This doesn’t excuse Putin’s regime. But our indifference helped create a climate of anxiety among a proud people who had lost their empire, their stature and much of their dignity. We were insensitive to that.

In demonizing Russia, as we do so easily today, we forget the 20 million who died in the Second World War. We forget that it was the Russians who were killing Nazis (equipped with American arms) before we opened a second front in Europe in 1944. We forget the impact of their revolution, civil war, collectivization, purges and famines. Honestly, did anyone suffer more in the 20th century?

In rounding on Russia, what some call Russia-phobia, we scarcely acknowledge the country’s dazzling achievements in literature, music, art, architecture, science and space.

Like all Olympic hosts, the Russians celebrated themselves at the opening ceremonies, sumptuously if selectively. But if nothing else, we should be reminded that these are a great people.

[reusrename]

158. The hypocrisy of the America-first crowd is what's so disappointing.

There are places in the US where Pussy Riot would have been shot dead on the spot under stand-your-ground.

Or, you can be shot to death for being gay.

The holier-than-thou exceptionalism is nauseating.

Oh yeah, if you mention that stuff about 20 million dying to defeat Hitler they'll call you a Stalinist.

[go west young man]

166. I've already been called everything in the book.

The paradox is I'm actually on the same side. I just feel the approach and lack of knowledge about real Russian culture is way off the mark. And the vitriol directed towards all Russians during the Olympics is uncalled for. Especially in light of our own problems, which you highlight with your post.

[Lex]

15. "Haha, the Russians have screwed up again!"

Love,
Party Pooper

[Renew Deal]

38. lol

[Bluenorthwest]

19. Not the Onion, Russian Embassy Compares Its Nation's Homophobia to U.K. 'Ginger' Hate

Officials with the Russian embassy in London are none too pleased about a recent documentary on Britain's Channel 4 that exposed violent antigay vigilante groups operating with near impunity in several major Russian cities.

In response, the embassy issued a statement blasting the documentary as "hate propaganda" and arguing that "one could have easily whipped up such 'documentary' about a hunting season on redheads in the UK saying that 'ginger' people face unmotivated verbal and physical abuse on a daily basis," according to The Telegraph. The embassy's statement made no mention of the U.K.'s arguably most famous redhead, Prince Harry.

The documentary, called Hunted, is part of a "well-engineered campaign of slander," intentionally timed to cast a shadow over the Winter Olympics currently taking place in Sochi, Russia, claims the embassy's statement. Embassy officials contend that the 50-minute film, which records brutal antigay assaults by members of the well-known Russian vigilante group Occupy Pedophilia, is "full of distorted facts and unverifiable allegations."
http://www.advocate.com/world/2014/02/12/russian-embassy-compares-its-nations-homophobia-uk-ginger-hate

[OKNancy]

22. I think this thread is what backfired!

[go west young man]

68. The links I posted

are getting a lot more attention globally than this thread.

[TheMathieu]

28. Your membership status with the Putin Fan Club is duly noted.

I, for one, stand with the U.S. and its LGBT citizens.

[Jamastiene]

32. How DARE we stand up for what is right?

Poor Putin and his stans can't handle a li'l opposition to homophobia. That argument you are putting forward is so old and tired and it doesn't work. Try another tactic besides WHAAAAAA!

[Behind the Aegis]

75. But...but...but....

"there's a little bi or gay in us all" so that means it is ok that he is chastising us because he is "probably a little bisexual." Sounds like saying, "I can't be saying anything racist, we are all a little black, look at our mitochondrial DNA."



The upside of all of this, it really shines a light on who really supports us and who really sees us as nothing more than an "issue."

[go west young man]

94. Believe it or not, "it's"

not always about "You".

[Behind the Aegis]

97. Take your own advice.

Seems "I" am not the only one who sees your agenda.

[go west young man]

103. Everyone here can see my "agenda"

I'm pretty much stripped naked on this issue. I've got no regrets. Peace.

[Behind the Aegis]

104. See, we agree on something.

It is apparent by the VAST majority of the responses things have been laid bare!

[go west young man]

119. I fully realize...

I'm the outsider on this issue. Strangely enough I am also the only one who has actually lived there.

[Behind the Aegis]

121. And?

That doesn't excuse some of your remarks.

[go west young man]

131. Debate the OP please.

[Behind the Aegis]

132. The OP is nothing but strawman feces, so it is hard to "debate" illogical crap.

Thus, the comments being generated.

[go west young man]

149. With rebuttals like that...

you must have graduated with honors in debate class.

[Behind the Aegis]

151. As opposed to your rebuttals?

Those which consist of nothing but logical fallacies, whining about being "banned", and mocking transgender people? Or are you talking about your witty rejoinder which you just posted?

[NYC Liberal]

33. Gay folks should sit quietly and wait until someone deigns to allow them equal rights.

We wouldn't want to offend bigots.

the LGBT loud approach at Russia during this Olympics has done more to help reignite the Cold War than Dick Cheney himself could have done

What a load of crap. I can hear some concerned voice from the 1950s or 60s now: "the black loud approach at the South has done more to help reignite the Civil War than Jefferson Davis himself could have".

And then there's this:

Even if most Sochi bashing is directed at Putin, it still hits all Russians.

So even when the criticisms are very specific about Putin and his specific actions and beliefs, rather than broad brushing all Russians, they're still wrong! In other words, "just shut the fuck up and stop being so negative" right?

[hrmjustin]

34. The ones hurting the LGBT community in Russia is their govrrnment and their fellow

Russians.

[Renew Deal]

36. The Russian govt passed their hateful and bigoted laws. Don't blame people for noticing

And the problems with the game sites are not the fault of those that notice the problems.

If Russia didn't treat gays like less than human they wouldn't have to worry about these complaints. Hopefully they are beginning to learn that their laws are unacceptable in today's world. I can't help but wonder why some people are so earnest to placate the homophobes on the Russian govt. And keep in mind that many US conservatives are looking at the Russian laws with admiration.

[Laughing Mirror]

187. And the Duma was unanimous in their hate and bigotry

Not one in that legislative body voted against those hateful and bigoted laws. They all voted for.

To point all of this out is bashing the Russian people of course.

[nadinbrzezinski]

39. You know, when the Olympics were held in Mexico City in 68

barely two weeks after Tlatelolco, people were just as pumped. So this is kind of silly.

Now, I for one am not watching the Olympics. The games themselves have become an exercise in politics and could care less for sports.

That said, I do notice the problem with Russian laws against the other. I guess you don't.

[go west young man]

57. Oh I notice.

I'm actually the only DU'er, who has been posting, that has visited Russia 7 times and resided there for over a year. I think through all these threads I've debated with less than 5 people that have actually been there. The point missed is that I believe in equal rights for all people. I just think the lack of understanding of Russian culture has caused more damage over there than good for the people that are seeking equal rights. I think you've all just made those who may have been on the fence on this issue swing to the other side (pun fully intended). The articles point this out clearly.

Americans and Russians do not think alike. It is a hard culture to live in as a whole. No matter ones gender. Attacking that whole country in the press during their time for the Olympics was not a move that is gonna do anyone any favors in Russia. I can assure you that. We all the right to speak our minds but I think we should of used sugar instead of salty schadenfreude.

[nadinbrzezinski]

63. I appreciate that you lived in large urban centers.

They are the equivalent of Mexico City or New York. These tend to be more cosmopolitan, urban and yes liberal. This is a rule of thumb around the world.

That said, the Duma did pass some horrible legislation. Granted, some states in the US have similar laws. They tend to be far more rural, more conservative, and overall backwards looking than these urban centers. Some in our Congress, the equivalent of the Duma, would love to turn the clock back and pass similar laws in the US.

This has been done to please both an Orthodox Church that has come back with a roar to the center of Russian life, not unlike southern Pentecostals in the US, to mention one very conservative church.

No the US is not that different from Russia. Rural areas tend to be extremely xenophobic and conservative and into blaming the other for their troubles. Both nations have committed ethnic cleansing, and both nations are struggling, I will argue Russia is more at the moment, with creating the other.

In the states large urban more liberal centers have been able to transfer their more accepting values, and the gains are barely holding on. Russia does have many issues, including mass poverty ( we are well on our way) that require shiny objects to keep people distracted.

No we are not that different when you look at this at a real macro level. Yup, I thank that more global view. And right now you are really seeing things through the rose colored glasses of the outsider looking in. I know that, been there, done that. There are valid reasons to be critical...of actually both nations, but for different reasons. See the war on women for the same shiny needed by elites.

[go west young man]

66. Point taken..

this post is more about bashing the whole country and expecting a good result. I tried to explain that all this vitriol wasn't gonna help anyone. Your right about the church. It was a political move by Putin. I have been well aware of hate crimes in Russia conducted by neo nazi nationalists since my first visit in 2004, although I've personally never seen one violent act except on the internet where poor immigrants were being attacked. The neo nazi nationalists were more closely associated with Putins extreme opposition. That point is not considered in the US. Actually quite a few of the anti Putin rallys that were covered in the US press years ago were conducted by those types of nationalists. Hence the reason Putin wins by such a large margin over there.

[go west young man]

69. Back that with....

I've been to plenty of Russian villages, drank with many a babooshka that made her own liquor, swam in frozen rivers with the locals after Russian saunas and eaten my fair share of potatoes to keep the vodka from coming back up. I know the Russian countryside and the gentle people I've met there. They are not all racist homophobes as I keep seeing written here. Those are generalizations and not much more.

[nadinbrzezinski]

76. Dad grew up in Poland

A polish family saved his life. That does not mean that crisis conditions do not bring the worst in people. This has been observed over and over again in war zones. Those who overcome other ism in a crisis are not that common. It is group dynamics, and not a nice aspect.

The same was observed in Yugoslavia, most people protected their own, a few extended a hand to the other. That is a powerful aspect of this.

So no, in general, under most normal conditions humans are great. It's when great stresses come, and I have to choose family or stranger that real tests come. Why genocides are horrific as well as civil wars.

[nadinbrzezinski]

70. Just because you personally have never witnessed it

It does not mean it's not happening.

I have never seen a lynching n the US, most people in larger urban centers never did, but they happened. (And in certain areas of really rural back country town are still happening. Ugly story of suicide story that simply had to be murder from Texas)

People here are reacting at the series of laws, which were passed by the equivalent of Congress. They are reacting with the same visceral hate to people in North Carolina for example. It takes a certain level of yes, understanding and political sophistication, to realize it is not all people. But a few, usually owned and played by particular interests.

And at times the obvious escapes people. Recent election here had an ultra right wing group making robo calls in support of the local R. None among the dems called that out. This is one group that would love to see those same anti gay laws in the US (Working Families USA).

At the even more macro level, we are all chums, played by powerful oligarchs. My advise, focus on that aspect. The all Russians are not monsters will not go well. It's not western propaganda, unless it missed the wall to wall coverage of laws in North Carolina. It is mostly human nature. Most humans automatically create the other when they don't understand something. See, I have not lived in Russia, but I have studied her history. Like American history it is full of good, bad and ugly.

[go west young man]

123. Point taken...

and much agreed with.

[Bluenorthwest]

64. I've been traveling the world since I was a kid, been to places that don't even exist

anymore, I've been everywhere. And never, not once, have I met any person who made the argument that to question the controversial issues of the time and place was to 'hate the people'. Every single person I have met in dozens of countries have been perfectly able to discuss what's going one without resorting to claims that to be critical of a law or a politician in their country is to be 'attacking the country as a whole'. It is an absurd, undemocratic and meritless claim.
'To criticize apartheid is to hate the South African people'?
'To oppose the Iraq War is to speak hate propaganda against the American People, which will do no one any favors, I assure you'?

No, these cries for Russia to be given a pass for it's bad human rights actions are unlike any other attitude I have seen anywhere in the world, over 40 years of travel. I reject their calls for special treatment.

[hrmjustin]

40. Let me ask you a question go west young man.

What do you want us to do? Be quiet about it?

[BainsBane]

51. I can't help wonder if this has to do with Snowden

Snowden is a hero; Russia took Snowden; so Russia must be perfect. Do you suppose that's it?

[hrmjustin]

54. Whike I can't speak for the OP and nor will I try, I think that some here on this site like Putin

because he gave Snowden sanctuary and that he pushes back at any idea of American using military force. Because of that I think some are giving Putin a pass. And we who are speaking out about it are just being mean to Russia.

[BainsBane]

58. Putin has no problem using military force

The admiration is absurd.

[hrmjustin]

60. Yeah I don't get it either.

[go west young man]

82. Although I am fully aware of "The Great Game"

that is not my motivation. My motivation is I believe in love over hate. For LGBT people and for innocent good natured Russian people. DU (in regards to this issue) has stooped as low as Putins silly law and I have attempted to point out why I think it's wrong what has gone on here.

[hrmjustin]

84. We have stooped to Putin's brutal laws? I can not believe you just said that!

[go west young man]

90. I'm equating the verbal demonization of a whole culture

with the LGBT law. Neither is correct.

[hrmjustin]

93. Well putting DU in the same category as that law is not right IMO.

Second I am not against the Russian people at all but I will say that they don't seem very upset by these new laws.

I will not watch the Olympics on principle.

[go west young man]

101. DU normally does a lot better than this vitriolic stuff

that I've read in the last few weeks. It reeks of schadenfreude. I've been banned a few times now from pointing this out. Think of that paradox, I'm being shut up on a US website while defending the Russian people. By the way those juries all went 4-2 with the two mentioning they were not sure why this was jury worthy. If I'm banned again it wouldn't surprise me.

[hrmjustin]

105. Well perhaps if you don't insult us the way you have you might not get banned again.

[NuclearDem]

107. Waaaaaaahhhhhh I got posts hidden waaaaaaaaahhhhh

Maybe stop with the straight 'splaining at LGBT members.

Because voluntarily or not, we won't be putting up with this nonsense from you for long.

[go west young man]

109. It's just a website.

I'm not too worried.

[NuclearDem]

110. Utter self absorbed bullshit.

Absolutely no consideration of how words can hurt the LGBT community, on "just a website" or otherwise.

Enjoy what's left of your stay.

[go west young man]

124. Instead of getting so personal...

why not read the articles in the OP and debate the argument on it's merits?

[NuclearDem]

126. No, I won't.

You accuse the LGBT community of starting to reignite the Cold War, essentially telling them to sit down and shut up unless they want to be unwitting servants of the MIC. Then you go on a campaign of straight 'splaining and making yourself out to be the victim because people are sickened by your rhetoric and implications.

But do please continue to make this all about you. It might be the last chance you get.

[go west young man]

133. "No I won't."

You've summed up your argument pretty well after that remark. You do realize DU is a debate forum?

[A-Schwarzenegger]

134. I think of it as more a revelatory forum.

Who a person is will eventually be revealed.

[go west young man]

139. For the people that don't know me...

I'm the poster that wrote "The Fucking Hippies were right and Jimmy Carter was the best president we ever had". It stayed on the Greatest page for a full 3 days back in 2010. My beliefs are many. I had many DU'ers write me and tell me how much they liked my post and if they could use it. I've been here since 2004 posting regularly.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

142. What do you think Jimmy Carter would say about your posts on this topic?

What would George Harrison say about them?

[go west young man]

150. I'm pretty sure neither of them

would be as rude to someone they disagree with as you guys have been.

[NuclearDem]

160. "Someone they disagree with"

You're telling the LGBT community they're doing it wrong and calling them unwitting agents of the MIC for having the gall to stand up for LGBT communities in another country. And to top it off, you're complaining about your posts linking to a video with a transphobic title getting hidden as "silencing" you.

If you don't understand after all that why people are getting "rude" with you, then I don't know what to say.

[go west young man]

167. I try not to be rude to people.

It doesn't help ones cause.

[NuclearDem]

169. Of course you don't get it.

The Russian government has institutionalized anti-LGBT discrimination, and consequently has the support of a vast majority of Russians.

Rich culture or not, that's wrong.

[go west young man]

173. The DUMA does not have the support of the people in Russia.

DUMA representatives do what "they" want to get votes. In this case they are most likely attempting to curry favor with the powerful orthodox church, as is Putin. I'm against it. I address the people and the polls which you guys are looking at via Geek Tragedys post above. The polling makes no sense and has numbers way off for other categories. The polls do not reflect true Russian culture or beliefs. The country is 68% non believers after communism. The CIA fact book points this out.

[NuclearDem]

182. "Nonbeliever" doesn't automatically mean socially progressive

Secularists can be homophobes and fascists for nonreligious reasons. Your argument against those polls equates to no more than anecdotes.

You're still trying to make the Russians as a whole out to be the victims of the LGBT community. It's disgusting.

[NuclearDem]

135. You are utterly unbelievable.

[BainsBane]

106. Because a thoughtless post on DU is exactly the same

as beating the crap out of people and arresting them because they are gay. Give me a break.

[Laughing Mirror]

188. "Putin's silly law"

Silly to you, not at all silly to the millions of people affected by it. Not to mention, its repercussions are an atrocity to those hunted down, beaten and tortured because now it's okay to do so.

Silly? Really?

[go west young man]

79. I actually agree with the helping LGBT people in Russia.

I just have disagreed with this approach you all have employed. I told you from the get go it was not cool to try to punish all of Russia during their Olympics. Globally they are not the ones left looking bad, whereas we are looking shameful due to our own vitriol and ignorance of Russian culture. I believe we should have been better to them at the turn of the millenium and we probably could have effected better change sooner. As it's going right now all this division is just fuel for a new cold war and more money for the MIC. I think your all being used by the media and the MIC in the larger scheme of things.

[hrmjustin]

81. How are we being used by the media and how are we punishing Russia?

And what do the people of Russia say about these laws?

[icymist]

114. My goodness; you're painting the DU with the same broad brush you claim the DU has toward Russia!

Cultural differences?! Give me a break! For years I had to put up with a bigoted supervisor because I 'just needed to understand that in her country they hate gays. It's a minor cultural difference' is what I was told. This was in Seattle in the '90's. So, all of us GLBT folk just need to understand that the Russians hating, bashing, and (possibly) killing our people is a culture thing? What a bunch of bunk! Just like that bigoted ignoramus got fired eventually (she also hated Americans) so will the hatred of this so-called culture be exposed. In fact, the whole world is shinning a light on it right now because of the Olympics! Your suggestion that this issue will ignite a new cold war thus generating money for the MIC is nothing more than some ridiculous scare tactic. Won't work.

[joeglow3]

140. So, your post about a gay couple visiting Russia saying there is no issue

Is you showing your support?

You must believe this site is full of people stupid enough to believe you care?

[backscatter712]

41. Awww, the Putinistas are butthurt...

So they're throwing a temper tantrum right now. That means we're being heard, which is preferable to the alternative, not being heard, or being silenced.

I say keep it up!

[quinnox]

43. The Olympics really seems to bring out the xenophobia

and the USA! USA! USA! mindset.

I have known several Russians, and they are hardworking, honorable, beautiful people. I think a lot of this hatred and xenophobia is just from ignorance.

[justiceischeap]

46. Or it could be that people say "the Russians" but don't actually mean

all the friggin' Russians in the world but the one's participating in the awful homophobia that has led to assaults--both physical and sexual--while clapping Putin on the back because it's the Olympics or some stupid shit like that. I'm guilty of doing this myself... "The Russians suck for creating such homophobic legislation!" Instead of typing, "'The Russians' suck for creating such homophobic legislation!"

It's not xenophobic, it's laziness.

[quinnox]

48. Possibly

but who knows for sure. All I know is the Russians I have known have really impressed me, and I have a lot of respect for them.

[justiceischeap]

56. I for one don't hate all Russians

I don't know them, so I can't hate them. I don't even blame the majority of Russians for Putin's law, 'cause it's his law. However, I'm very guilty of typing things off that may come across as scathing of all Russians when in fact I mean only the a**holes!

[quinnox]

62. well, hopefully most are just doing as you speculate

And just being lazy in making what appear to be broad brushing statements. Thanks for clarifying.

[go west young man]

78. There was one poster here this past week

constantly saying 'Fuck Russians, Fuck Russia and the like...I commented back to him and wrote what if I said that about all Americans.. guess what? My post got sent to jury and I got banned in my own thread. Oh the irony.

[go west young man]

83. His post did not get banned by the way.

Nor would I ever alert on anyone for any post.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

85. Was it this one that was hidden?:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4474848

or this one?:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024469310#post49

[Behind the Aegis]

95. The second one was hidden for a link to a transphobic video.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

98. Shoulda got the boot for that.

[Behind the Aegis]

99. Instead, he posted the same link again in another post.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

102. Using love for Russia to hide

hate for something else.

[Behind the Aegis]

120. The title of the link:

When Trannies Go Crazy - Fight Compilation

He now claims it was demonstrating homophobia in the US.

[NuclearDem]

122. I...what?

Why is this jokester still posting here?

[go west young man]

125. It's amazing you guys can't see what is starting to appear as a gang mentality

amongst yourselves in this thread. Dispose of the anger and debate the OP.

[NuclearDem]

129. Waaaaaaah the LGBTers and their allies are getting all touchy waaaaahhh

Keep making demands of people you're insulting!

[go west young man]

141. Evolve.

[go west young man]

115. To make the point that it happens in the US.

You guys continue to try to label me as a hater. It's not working. Peace.

[Behind the Aegis]

118. No, the transgender people were not the victims, it was MOCKING transgender people!

The title is: When Trannies Go Crazy - Fight Compilation

You are not the victim!

[go west young man]

136. It's Americans fighting.

Both gay and straight people beating the shit out of each other. The point was.... it's in your own backyard.

[Behind the Aegis]

138. You claim that is the point, but GLBT here got your REAL point.

No, the point is you don't want us uppity, let's say, gays, saying shit about Russia's shit laws. BTW, you sign the petition against the Ugandan Law? I am just sure you have.

[go west young man]

153. For the 500th time...

I believe in equality for all human beings. Where we disagree is in how we achieve that goal. You want loud, aggressive, in your face tactics that demean a whole nation...I want smart, thoughtful, US policy on Russia so we can effect better change that the Russian government won't reject. Due to all this boisterousness I think the process has been set backwards and is actually turning Putins opposition into fans of Putin. Sounds complex I know. But I think many DU'ers don't understand Russia or Russians in general.

[Behind the Aegis]

154. No, where we disagree....

...is that GLBT people have the right to speak out against homophobia no matter who the perpetrator is! That by speaking out we are not heterophobes, Russiophobes, bullies, thin-skinned, or any other crap that is being thrown at us. I think more than few DU'ers don't understand GBLT persons.

[go west young man]

168. Except for the fact that I....

am a "B" in the LGBT.

[AgingAmerican]

189. Haters gonna hate

nt

[Behind the Aegis]

204. Yeah...no.

The claim "everyone is a little bit bi or gay" does not make you a bisexual.

[NealK]

210. "BTW, you sign the petition against the Ugandan Law?"

Of course not. This petition is hate propaganda aimed at the good people of Uganda. Or something.

[go west young man]

108. The first was sarcasm misinterpreted for someone who actually wrote "Fuck Putin" in the post before.

What's worse my joke or his "Fuck Putin'? The 2nd was a video showing US violence against LGBT people. No different than the other videos posted by other posters in that thread. Yet I was banned for a legitimate video that shows US gay bashing. None of these are good reasons to have someone banned. In my opinion, more than anything, they show that the jury system is just a crap shoot that could go either way. Why not just let all posts stand instead of censoring people? It's ironic considering this debate is about Russia and we are the ones censoring ourselves.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

112. Theyre picking on you.

Or else you just have bad luck with juries.
Or else the jury system sucks.
Or else somebody's out to get you.
Or else they just don't understand you.
Or else they don't appreciate your political acumen.
Or else they're mean.
Or else they don't get your global far-sightedness.
Or else they're brainwashed.
Or else they don't see how much you love LGBT people & how much you're just trying to help them.

[louslobbs]

207. I have been reading all of these posts, but have not commented until now after reading your post

A-Schwarzenegger......and what you have posted, is exactly what I've been thinking.

Some people have a hard time seeing how others might be hearing them. This is especially true when someone believes, that they have thought through the issue in question more thoroughly, and or, they believe that they actually have a better grasp of the facts related to the issue than others who are commenting.

This is a sad and emotional issue that angers many, myself included. Some would like to dictate to others how they should feel or respond based on their life experiences, rather than acknowledging the individual experiences of all the others commenting. And when others won't agree with their analysis of the situation, they start playing the blame game, trying to place blame for all kinds of unrelated garbage, onto all of those who refuse to conform and see their great wisdom regarding the situation at hand.

These types of people when disagreed with, will start to blame the real victims for victimizing others,
rather than recognizing those who are actually being victimized. They'll bring up cold wars and allege support for the military industrial complex, they'll claim they want to have a conversation, never once looking at how confrontational they have become because they can't force others to agree with their way of thinking.

So thank you for saying in a few succinct lines, exactly what I was feeling A-Schwarzenegger.

And to all of those who have expressed their views about the situation in Russia, you have a right to feel exactly how you feel and to believe exactly what you believe based on your knowledge regarding this situation using your own life experiences.

And remember, sometimes when someone claims over and over again that they are just "trying to have a conversation," but the interaction feels more and more confrontational, go with your gut and recognize, that unless you agree with this type of person, the only route with continued interaction, is confrontation.

This type of person fails to see one thing, there are great costs when you always have to be right while trying to make everyone else wrong, and the greatest of those costs is, relatedness to others.
Lou

[A-Schwarzenegger]

209. Thanks, Lou. We all have our blind spot

but it's on us if so many people are pointing it out
& we still refuse to see it, or are incapable of seeing
it, and continue smugly on. I'd like to think in this case
it's ego rather than malice, but at some point it doesnt
matter, and either way the damage gets done. Thanks,
again.

[Behind the Aegis]

116. It was NOT gay bashing. It was MOCKING transgender individuals.

For those reading, this was the title of the link he provided TWICE at DU:

When Trannies Go Crazy - Fight Compilation

You were not "BANNED", your posts were "HIDDEN."

[go west young man]

137. Fair enough.. hidden.

My mistake.

[hrmjustin]

50. Hatred? Do you see it here at DU? I haven't.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

44. Why is condemning homophobia wrong?

Does that mean I can't condemn the Westboro Baptist Church?

[get the red out]

47. Of course you can condemn them

Until Putin attends, then STFU. We are supposed to be kissing Putin's ass or we are bigoted and xenophobic and hate all the Russian people.

[Capt. Obvious]

52. In Russia, Tetris play you

You're earning your Rubles lately.

[Vashta Nerada]

53. How is it bashing pointing out the country's homophobia?

[HERVEPA]

55. genug already

[okaawhatever]

61. I think the response is proportionate to what is happening to the gays citizens of Russia. It's not

just that they have the laws, the laws alone probably wouldn't garner the visceral response that other events have. When people witness citizens of Russia beating up on gays in Russia, they're going to be pissed...and vocal. When we hear the mayor of a large city claim that gays don't live there, some people are going to be pissed, and vocal. Gays aren't Alice, you can't make them "not live here anymore". Nor should a politician make that claim as if there is a moral superiority inherent to his residents that the rest of the world doesn't possess. It wasn't that he said that out of ignorance, it's that he seemed to think he had the moral high ground in the matter. There is no moral high ground with biology. It's a fact of life, not a moral issue. Being gay isn't bad or good, it just is.

I'm not gay, but I'm a vocal and political supporter of gay rights. The reason isn't because I think they need my help, or my party affiliation, or any other reason of convenience. It's because I am a human being and it bothers me when other human beings are treated poorly. That applies here in the US and in any other place I see it. I'm not bashing Russian citizens, I'm bashing human beings that I feel are ignoring their innate empathy at the expense of their fellow man.

[Morning Dew]

65. Their anti-gay laws are an affront to all lgbt people.

I wonder why it is always not the right time to fight for human rights.

[Notafraidtoo]

77. Russia should not be celebrated

They are basically the republican party on crack and deserve no approval, if they are sick of being bashed then they can either deal with it or become more progressive and not so back wards. IMO they are a glorified third world nation.

[markpkessinger]

80. This sounds a lot like Ronald Reagan claiming that sanctions against South Africa . . .

. . . would hurt the cause of black South Africans. Didn't buy that one, either.

[pnwmom]

86. Since when is DU that influential? nt

[go west young man]

89. See post #68

[icymist]

87. How many people need to die before criticizing the abusers is okay?

100? 1,000? 10,000? 1,000,000? How many?

[bluesbassman]

92. "Reignite the cold war" by calling out LGBT bigotry and hatred? Seriously?

That's far-fetched to say the least.

[NuclearDem]

100. Speechless.

In actuality the LGBT loud approach at Russia during this Olympics has done more to help reignite the Cold War than Dick Cheney himself could have done. I bet the MIC is loving the LGBT community right now.

Go away young man.

[go west young man]

111. Read the articles.

I pointed it out to the Russia bashers last week. Two wrongs don't make a right.

[NuclearDem]

113. No. Go away.

[go west young man]

143. Strong argument.

Well done.

[NuclearDem]

144. Pathetic victim complex.

Well done.

[freshwest]

128. The issue is human rights. Our Constitution, despite our despicable RWNJs, forbids what is legal in

Russia right now. We are fighting reactionaries state by state. But they will fail, as they are fighting our highest ideals.

We want good relations with all nations but we can't ignore what is being done there. American RWNJs are busy networking, spreading homophobia in Russia.

We must attack bigotry here or there, wherever it is.

[cherokeeprogressive]

130. I will go to my grave bashing Mother Russia.

UNTIL and UNLESS they repeal each and every single piece of anti-LGBT legislation.

Kiss kiss.

[go west young man]

145. Mother Russia died in 1991.

The New Russian Federation has been around for 22 years now. The Cold War is over but unfortunately seems to be being reconstituted as we type.

[AgingAmerican]

190. And the same should go for the USA

For our country is right up there with Russia when it comes to LBGT hatred, sadly.

[NuclearDem]

191. Nowhere near Russia's. Not even close.

Yes, there is plenty of homophobia and anti-gay policy in the US, but nowhere near as extreme as Russia. 74% of Americans don't view homosexuality as immoral.

[AgingAmerican]

192. Sure it is close

1/3 of Americans hold neanderthal views on LGBT issues. We are right up there with Russia and Uganda.

[NuclearDem]

193. Alright, I must be missing the sarcasm tag.

[AgingAmerican]

194. So you view American anti-LGBT hatred as exceptional

...and above reproach. Thanks for clearing that up.

[NuclearDem]

198. What the fuck are you talking about?

I said nothing of the sort.

Is gay marriage legal anywhere in Russia? Is homosexuality a capital crime in the United States? Do 74% of Americans view homosexuality as immoral?

Saying that Russia and Uganda's bigotry is worse than the US is not giving the US a pass on its own bigotry. But saying the US is homophobic in league with those two is just ridiculous and a stupid "both sides do it" statement.

[AgingAmerican]

199. Haters gonna hate

nt

[NuclearDem]

200. And trolls are going to put words in people's mouths.

[AgingAmerican]

205. Haters always

Gonna hate. Our hate is no more acceptable than their hate. Hate is hate.

[geek tragedy]

197. 3/4 of Russians do. .33 < .75 nt

[AgingAmerican]

208. Yet equally

Repulsive.

[DemocraticWing]

152. Yeah, gay people are to blame for our own oppression.

Why did everybody bash apartheid South Africa so much, huh? Why didn't we let the Nazi Party do whatever they wanted and stop interfering in other countries affairs, oh how everybody is so horrible.

Now in all seriousness: Russia is practically an evil cesspool of homophobia right now. They deserve all the shit they get and more.

[William769]

156. After reading this thread, the only backfire I see is the OP!

[HappyMe]

162. Pooty, that you?

[Bluenorthwest]

164. The gay bashing has backfired for Russia and the bullying has backfired for the OP

It's hilarious to see you attempt to suggest that criticism of a vicious set of newly passed laws is the same as 'hating the people as a whole'. I've never met any thinking person who had the needy audacity to claim that others must not criticize any aspect of their nation's politics. This call for special treatment toward Russian law, that it is above criticism, is a unique request, a request any democratic minded person is going to mock and reject. Because it is specious and homophobic.

[go west young man]

171. Threads like this are what Russian will end up seeing in their publications.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4466958

Do you seriously think they help LGBT causes in Russia? Sadly, they will only cause divisiveness. I don't think the strategy is well thought through here.

[geek tragedy]

177. Bigotry causes divisiveness. Stop siding with the bigots, nt

[go west young man]

179. It's the approach I disagree with.

I've only written that 500 times.

[geek tragedy]

180. your words: " I bet the MIC is loving the LGBT community right now."

the GLBT community and their friends have repudiated your nonsense quite thoroughly in this thread.

[Starry Messenger]

170. Seriously?

[go west young man]

172. Read the articles.

Don't take my word for it. I'm just a Putin lover ya know? The only one in the whole debate that has actually been to Russia and lived there.

[Starry Messenger]

174. I'll save my sympathy for the LGBT victims being gang-raped by Russian straight thugs with bottles.

[geek tragedy]

175. You bashed LGBT people for advocating for their own damn human rights.

In actuality the LGBT loud approach at Russia during this Olympics has done more to help reignite the Cold War than Dick Cheney himself could have done. I bet the MIC is loving the LGBT community right now.

"Putin-lover" is kind compared to what could be said in reaction to such toxic nonsense.

[go west young man]

178. You never did negate my points above

on your skewed polls. Please go there first and then we can debate.

[go west young man]

181. I'm stopping posting on this subject now.

The issue has been raised, on both sides.. I think many DU'ers are probably tired of the issue at this point. I will be putting my energy into helping one Russian boy who I can directly effectively help. And I will be watching the olympics and cheering for all the athletes of all countries whether good or bad. They all offer hope for their countries. Peace.

[Starry Messenger]

195. You got your ass handed to you, and rightfully so.

Bye.

[geek tragedy]

183. you used "skewed polls" without irony. that's funny.

For the record, cultural stereotypes are not a valid rebuttal to data.

[Bluenorthwest]

196. It's homophobic nonsense.

You are trying to bully and intimidate and smear LGBT people. And why? Because we reject bigoted laws and stand up for our own people.
Those are disgusting posts you are making. Disgusting.

[Loaded Liberal Dem]

184. Jesus H. Christ, man, we're almost out of wars! We gotta bash SOMEONE!

[NCTraveler]

186. That kind of sucked to read.

Was actually very uncomfortable. Wish it wasn't brought here. Makes no sense at all. Very illogical. Seems like another case of straight people trying to tell the LGBT community what is in their best interests. Hey assholes, this time the sentiment came from a lot more than the LGBT community, it came from many of us from many different walks of life. The LGBT community actually got to witness many straight people coming out swinging at the Russians shitty policy. That is the way it should be, it is the way it should have always been. Standing together in solidarity at the oppression of our friends and family. Fuck the sentiments of the op. Progress is being made every day, we will not sit down and shut up in order to make hate filled bigots feel more comfortable.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

201. Uh....not remotely true. When S. Africa's apartheid was

In its full-blown hate, western protests against apartheid made things worse before they were better.

In the end, it was worth it. Same thing here. People ate morally obligated to speak out.

[HERVEPA]

202. To quote "Alvin Dark", from Jim Bouton's book "Ball Four"

"Take a hike, son, take a hike"

[Swede Atlanta]

203. Pffft.....This is not a reaction to the anti-Russian sentiment that arose out of their anti-gay

propaganda law.

The Russians were going to do this anyway. The fact they have a robust net export "trade" in adoptions is telling about their society and their economy.

I think the Russian people and even many of their politicians recognize that since the demise of the Soviet Union all of the wealth has gone to the very wealthy. While there is a middle class it is relatively small by most western standards. They still have many people who live in or near poverty.

When you are down, and your "empire" has evaporated it is easy to identify scapegoats and go after them. The Russians believe they can do this and couch it (as many American evangelicals) in terms of protecting the family.

The Germans went after the Jews, the Gypsies, the gays, etc.

The phenomena is nothing new. I expect to see more anti-gay legislation coming out of the Kremlin. They have found a scapegoat that has essentially no domestic political power.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

206. I think you did exceptionally well in this debate.

Perhaps a flesh wound or two...

[NealK]

211. Lol!

[brianct]

212. The Unknown Putin: leader of the free world and saviour of russia

the attacks on President Putin by dumb americans and their corrupt media are a disgrace..not that americans have any sense of shame:
so to educate you lot on Putin, here is a documentary... the Unknown Putin...the man who saved Russia



https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL8B50585675DC1F5C

Putins main 'crimes' in western eyes are: he helped russians take back russia from the greedy oligarchs, rekindle russian pride and the economy...seeks a multi polar world, not one ruled by a ruthless US empire.

the Sochi Olympics are the phoneix from the russian ashes made by Yeltsin /Oligarchs.

[NuclearDem]

214. And demonize a politically powerless minority.

Enjoy your very brief stay.

[brianct]

217. demonisIng president Putin endanger america

the new olympic sport: Putin bashing, reveals the callowness shallowness envy spite posturing lying etc of its practitioners;

'Nonetheless, Putin-bashing on the right and the left, featuring mostly irrelevant, baseless or hyperbolic allegations about hi's political record, continues unabated with scarcely any countervailing voices in the mainstream media. It ranges from characterizing Putin as “a KGB thug” whose policies at home are akin to those of Saddam, Stalin and Hitler to claiming that his entire foreign policy, past and present, consists of the “restoration of the Russian empire” and “poking America in the eye.” (Do these commentators know that Putin did more to assist the US ground war in Afghanistan after 9/11 than did any other head of state and continues to facilitate the supplying of American and NATO forces still fighting there? That he backed harsher sanctions against Iran’s nuclear ambitions and refused to sell Teheran a highly effective air-defense system? Or that his agencies shared with Washington counter-terrorism information that might have prevented the Boston bombings in April.)

There are other Putinophobic follies—in addition to mocking a photo of him bare-chested on horseback and alleging that he stole a NFL championship ring—most of them trivial, preposterous and self-debasing. A Democratic senior senator tells CNN he “almost wanted to vomit” when he read Putin’s New York Times op-ed explaining his peace proposal. Republican John McCain was equally contemptuous of the article, dismissing it as “Orwellian” and Putin as a “mammoth ego.” And a liberal magazine’s Russia expert assured viewers that Putin really doesn’t care what happens in Syria, only about his own self-aggrandizement, and, anyway, most of his supporters at home are “chubby women over fifty”—this to the appreciative chuckles of the other chic women on the CNN panel. (So much for senatorial statesmanship and respect for older women.)


http://www.thenation.com/article/176191/demonizing-putin-endangers-americas-security

[NuclearDem]

226. Your buddy Putin is a homophobic jackass, Name Removed.

For everything wrong with the US, acceptance of it is on the rise and our president accepts gay marriage. Putin and the Russian people don't.

[NuclearDem]

232. This is precious.

cant wait for Obama to wed his beau! of he accepts gay marrriage

Because you only accept gay marriage if you're gay.
And please feel free to tell me where in Russia gay marriage is legal or if gay Russians can serve in their military openly.

MIRT, your ball!

[brianct]

213. Embarrassed , the media tries damage control

The media attacks of Sochi russia and ESP president Putin are so blatant as to have embarrassed the media into damage control . The Ottawa piece manages to recycle the stereotypes of president Putin while pretending a mea culpa .
The Sochi Olympics need to be seen as a signif a revitalised russia , a Phoenix risen from ashes created by Yeltsin and the oligarchs like kodordokvsky.
Thee dis is trained to treat and free and independent and capable leader as a 'dictator' it 'strongman' as Washington prefers pliable dupes , no matter how brutal : the sauds are never referred UK as dictators .
Putin is under attack not for alleged human rights abuses: the state that waged war on Iraq and backs U
Israels genocide of Palestine has no concept with human rights other than as a screen .
So far sochi has in spite of the media barrage been a great success and the Russian people know it

[flamingdem]

215. I agree, there was a bit too much of the Ugly American

here on DU. Everything in balance, please, we're not all that.

[brianct]

216. my letter to Cohen at Ottawacitizen on his still endoring and spreading the Putin-phobia steretypes

Nice article Mr Cohen
But it perpetuates the stereotypes:


http://www.ottawacitizen.com/sports/Column+Sochi+schadenfreude/9491186/story.html


… the stereotypes used to empower and justify sochi bashing in the first place. Ive endured reams of pages of Putin/Sochi/russia bashing by the ’free press’, where even those who wish to apply the breaks contribute to the melee. Lets consider:

1. President Putin is not the crazed autocrat you imagine or want to wind your readers up with. Hes the elected head of the 2nd most powerful state on earth: and but for president Putin there would be no Russia today. A little history about Putin and post communist Russia: The Unknown Putin
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL8B50585675DC1F5C
The main objection to Putin is not that he is the ‘president-for-life’ as you put it , but that he is not a controlled puppet, as the leader of Canada is or the heads of eu states. Who gave Edward Snowden asylyum? Not canada or the EU: indeed the EU heads obeyed orders and closed their airspace to the plane of the president of Bolivia, which they were told had Snowden obboard. Who stopped the US attack on Syria and providing alqaeda with an air support? Not Canada or EU. Who helped reinvigorate russia so it CAN hold an olympics? Not the US regime.

2. ‘contempt for human rights’ : so US or UK or Greece or Canada from nations that have hosted olympics lately, are free of corruption and support HR? Yet did Russia ever launch a campaign of vilification? This is just another and current pretext.
3. ‘Anti gay’ laws…one of the main HR issues has been the so called ‘antigay’ laws’, later when a bit better informed, ‘anti gay propaganda’ laws which are nothing of the sort…(see white paper below)
4. ‘Our liberal sensibility is offended by a swaggering strongman who picks the wrong friends at home and abroad, jails his enemies and wants to rule forever’
Yours, not mine…’swaggering strong man’ is also how 10 times elected president Chavez of venezuela was described (and as any liberal does any independent leader), It does take a strongman to stop an armed attack: on Syria while saving a real wanna be strongman Obama, who drone bombs civilians, from a public loss of face. But ‘strongman’ is term used by the really corrupt to attack a capable independent leader.
5. What wrong friends? You mean presidents Assad, the late Chavez, Chinas Xi Jinping, Irans new presisdent? Who? Meanwhile here are some REALLY wrong friends: http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/US_ThirdWorld/dictators.html
6. Does Putin want to rule forever? I hope he does? You may recall when he was not president, the UN authored a resolution 1973, for NATO to attack Libya: which the president Medved didn’t sign but didn’t veto: result: a devastated Libya. Putin as PM opposed the UN resolution,…but as he wasn’t president he could not autocratically countermand Medvedev . HAD Putin been president he would ha vetoed this evil resolution..then this wold not have occurred: http://axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/Article_63567.shtml
So yes id like to see him president for life…noone lives forever: why change a good govt for a bad one, such has you endure in Canada?

7. ‘We are outraged by how Russia treats its g-ays and lesbians. At a time this issue is all but settled in Europe and North America, we consider Russia’s repressive law antediluvian.’…………..how does Russia treat its LGBT people? Lets ask a g-ay advocate Brian Heiss: – http://static.prisonplanet.com/p/images/february2014/white_paper.pdf his investigation may surprise you. Esp its so called ‘repressive law’.
8. The issue of g-ays is not settled in North AM: not by a long chalk:: http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2014/02/13/kansas_anti_gay_segregation_bill_is_an_abomination.html?wpisrc=burger_bar
9. ‘The ethical problem for us is that, while we are quick to condemn the Russians, we accept no responsibility for the regime. We didn’t create Vladimir Putin, but he lays bare our own hypocrisy and amnesia.’……….its not a ‘regime’ its a government, as legitimate as your own, but freer ad with more integrity. You didnt create Putin..but you did create your own head of state, a servant of the US and an aider of islamism terrorism in syria…..Do you accept responsibility for the US regime and its war on Iraq?
10. ‘He thinks that we have missed opportunities to engage the Russians in a way that would have eased their transition from communism and authoritarianism’ translation: take control thru advisors and bend Russia to our will and make it subservient to Washington. as the EU has been bent to US wills: http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/07/05/the-servility-of-the-satellites/ Russians far prefer Putin and freedom…from US control.
11. ‘This doesn’t excuse Putin’s regime. But our indifference helped create a climate of anxiety among a proud people who had lost their empire, their stature and much of their dignity. We were insensitive to that’
Guess what:.President Putin, with no help from the west, helped Russia win back its dignity: it did so by taking back the economy the former govt tried to privatise: sell off to greedy businessmen allied to the.US….eg Khodorkovsky.
This fixation on ‘Putins regime’, is a part of the dodgy scheme to undermine the govt of Russia by doing what you criticise others: demonization its leader.
12’ We don’t have to like Putin and his regime. But had we been less sanctimonious and more perceptive, we might be seeing a different Russia behind those Olympic Rings today’
Many people, not the corrupt middle class intellectuals who write media editorials, DO like president Putin and loathe the US regime and all its leaders: from Nixon to Obama, and find the idea of turning Russia into Canada, with a regime more satisfactory to the current empire , risible.
So lets hope your next editoria is more in tune with current reality…and not a left handed jibe at its subject
The proper symbol for Sochi is the Phoenix: rising from the ashes of a catastrophe brought on it BY the US empire and Yeltsin…and that’s why the empire and its media miscreants have been bashing Sochi President Putin and Russia .
Regards

[Redfairen]

230. I'm a progressive liberal yet people look down on me for being a citizen of Alabama.

Welcome to the real world. Huge numbers of people are despised for the culture in which they were born. I live with it all the time. Grow up and get over it.