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Tue Mar 20, 2012, 08:46 PM

serious question about trayvon, zimmerman and stand your ground

ok, i have raised this in other threads with very little response but:

if trayvon did in fact initiate the physical altercation, as zimmerman alleges AFTER zimmerman chased him down and illegally detained him, as zimmerman admits, doesn't the stand your ground law apply to trayvons actions and not zimmerman's?

wouldn't trayvon be the one who had the right to stand his ground under florida law against someone committing a felony against his person?

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Arrow 28 replies Author Time Post
Reply serious question about trayvon, zimmerman and stand your ground (Original post)
arely staircase Mar 2012 OP
Ian David Mar 2012 #1
randr Mar 2012 #2
Empowerer Mar 2012 #20
provis99 Mar 2012 #3
arely staircase Mar 2012 #5
provis99 Mar 2012 #9
arely staircase Mar 2012 #12
Sedona Mar 2012 #13
arthritisR_US Mar 2012 #4
XanaDUer Mar 2012 #6
uppityperson Mar 2012 #7
The Magistrate Mar 2012 #8
arely staircase Mar 2012 #10
arely staircase Mar 2012 #17
gateley Mar 2012 #11
crazycanuck Mar 2012 #14
petronius Mar 2012 #16
Empowerer Mar 2012 #21
petronius Mar 2012 #23
arely staircase Mar 2012 #18
Skittles Mar 2012 #19
Empowerer Mar 2012 #22
Skittles Mar 2012 #28
crazycanuck Mar 2012 #15
LisaL Mar 2012 #24
arely staircase Mar 2012 #26
Baitball Blogger Mar 2012 #25
ProgressiveProfessor Mar 2012 #27

Response to arely staircase (Original post)

Tue Mar 20, 2012, 08:48 PM

1. Crazy man with a gun chasing you for no reason is legitimate cause for self-defense. n/t

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Response to arely staircase (Original post)

Tue Mar 20, 2012, 08:48 PM

2. My guess is that in Florida

they will always side with the person with the gun.

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Response to randr (Reply #2)

Tue Mar 20, 2012, 10:00 PM

20. They will always side with the WHITE person with the gun

If the scenario were flipped and Zimmerman were black and Trayvon white, Zimmerman would have been immediately arrested and charged with murder, few questions asked.

And we all know that if Zimmerman were unarmed and Trayvon had a gun that he used on Zimmerman in self-defense after Zimmerman chased him through the subdivision and wrestled him to the ground, Trayvon would be under the jail by now.

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Response to arely staircase (Original post)

Tue Mar 20, 2012, 08:51 PM

3. well, we could ask the opinion of both Zimmerman and Martin.

 

oh wait, Martin's dead, so only Zimmerman's opinion matters.

Hundreds of other fatal shootings in Florida follow the same pattern. What went on is judged solely by the claims of the survivor.

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Response to provis99 (Reply #3)

Tue Mar 20, 2012, 08:56 PM

5. no, there are 9/11 tapes, forensic evidence,

witnesses who heard some of it and possibly someone who was on the phone with trayvon. im pretty sure the grand jury will hear all of that. there is all kinds of evidence other than zimmerman's word.

though it is true that that is all the local backwater cops were willing to entertain.

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #5)

Tue Mar 20, 2012, 09:06 PM

9. Zimmerman said it was him screaming, not Martin.

 

Witnesses only heard "screaming", not who was doing it. Now if Martin were alive, he might be able to deny that. But he's dead, so the only witness to this is Zimmerman. Martin's girlfriend is an unreliable witness, since she had a relationship with him. And the cops seem to be on Zimmerman's side. The chances of a successful indictment of Zimmerman, let alone a conviction, are pretty close to zero, given the content of the stand-your-ground Florida law.

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Response to provis99 (Reply #9)

Tue Mar 20, 2012, 09:11 PM

12. well then if his gf is unreliable because of familiarity

what does that make zimmerman's testimony, since he was infinitely more familiar with himself than trayvon's gf was with him?

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #5)

Tue Mar 20, 2012, 09:25 PM

13. the screaming

I'm pretty sure the FBI can analyze the 911 tape and determine without a doubt they were NOT Zimmerman's screams. If Trayvon's voice is recorded anywhere, like a voicemail, they may even be able to determine the screams were Trayvon's. Voices are like fingerprints, each unique.

http://www.infra-techuk.co.uk/infratech-forensic-speech-analysis.html

edited for typos

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Response to arely staircase (Original post)

Tue Mar 20, 2012, 08:53 PM

4. I think you are spot on! Trayvon was being

stalked which, by its very nature, is aggressive. I would think that his parent's lawyer would be pursuing this line of logic.

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Response to arely staircase (Original post)

Tue Mar 20, 2012, 09:00 PM

6. I was saying this to my SO

If Trayvon had a gun maybe he could have shot Zimmerman? Who the hell is Zimmerman to question/detain ANYONE? Isn't that kidnapping?

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Response to arely staircase (Original post)

Tue Mar 20, 2012, 09:02 PM

7. Seems that way to me. eom

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Response to arely staircase (Original post)

Tue Mar 20, 2012, 09:04 PM

8. Yes, Sir: The Only Person With A Legitimate Claim To Self-Defense Here Was Young Mr. Martin

Zimmerman's claim rests on his having a reasonable belief he was, when he began the confrontation, preventing commission of a forcible felony. He may have believed he was doing so, but cannot have met legal standards of reasonable belief he was doing so. This means that his confronting Mr. Martin was the commission of a crime, and young Mr. Martin would certainly have had a reasonable belief he was in imminent danger of serious harm of death from a stranger forcibly accosting him on the public way.

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #8)


Response to The Magistrate (Reply #8)

Tue Mar 20, 2012, 09:51 PM

17. that's kinda how i see it

and you REALLY don't have to call me sir.

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Response to arely staircase (Original post)

Tue Mar 20, 2012, 09:11 PM

11. "wouldn't trayvon be the one who had the right to stand his ground..." No. He was Black. nt

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Response to arely staircase (Original post)

Tue Mar 20, 2012, 09:39 PM

14. please pardon and educate ignorance

This Canuck is gingerly entering the waters. This case sounds like a textbook racist murder, but what on earth is a stand your ground law? How does it relate to other law, such as citizen's arrest, which, I believe, is a criminal law concept on both sides of our shared border, and how does it apply to this case? if at all?

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Response to crazycanuck (Reply #14)

Tue Mar 20, 2012, 09:50 PM

16. The text of the law has been posted on other threads, but in a nutshell a SYG law

says that you are not obligated to attempt to flee or disengage before using deadly force in self-defense, even if an (apparent) escape route is available. However, your use of force must still be based on a reasonable (to an ordinary person, not just your opinion) fear that you face imminent harm to yourself or others...

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Response to petronius (Reply #16)

Tue Mar 20, 2012, 10:03 PM

21. And while it probably has not yet been tested in court . . .

it's likely that chasing an unarmed person through the streets invalidates a self-defense claim, even under the Stand Your Ground law.

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Response to Empowerer (Reply #21)

Tue Mar 20, 2012, 10:15 PM

23. Despite the amount of discussion, I think SYG is irrelevant here

That law really only matters if it's shown that Zimmerman was legitimately defending himself, but perhaps had an opportunity to retreat. The question however, is whether or not self-defense was lawful at all - and SYG has nothing to do with determining the (il)legality of a particular decision to use deadly force...

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Response to crazycanuck (Reply #14)

Tue Mar 20, 2012, 09:54 PM

18. some states have laws that say that if you are threatened by a bully

or whomever you must run away if you can (duty to retreat) laws in other states say you can defend yourself even if running away is an option (stand your ground.)

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Response to crazycanuck (Reply #14)

Tue Mar 20, 2012, 09:55 PM

19. gun nuts paranoia turned into law

essentially you can kill someone who scares you

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Response to Skittles (Reply #19)

Tue Mar 20, 2012, 10:04 PM

22. Especially if they're black men, because they are really scary

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Response to Empowerer (Reply #22)

Wed Mar 21, 2012, 04:34 AM

28. oh absolutely

I remember when I first moved into my current apt complex and my cat took off, and I would come home from work before sunrise and be looking for him with a flashlight - it occurred to me people would have called the cops on me if I'd been a black man - yes INDEED (fyi my cat returned after 17 days...grrrrrrrrrrr)

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Response to arely staircase (Original post)


Response to arely staircase (Original post)

Tue Mar 20, 2012, 10:17 PM

24. If he were alive he could use "stand your ground" argument, sure.

But he is dead.

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Response to LisaL (Reply #24)

Tue Mar 20, 2012, 10:25 PM

26. didn't say he could "use it" i said it "appl(ied)" to him

in that those sorting this out, now that it has been removed from the hands of the local yahoos, could view it through that lense.

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Response to arely staircase (Original post)

Tue Mar 20, 2012, 10:20 PM

25. Yes, but we've already determined that he didn't have a gun to defend himself,

and even if he did, the police would have probably shot him and asked questions later.

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Response to arely staircase (Original post)

Wed Mar 21, 2012, 12:49 AM

27. You are confusing different parts of FL law...

To use deadly force in FL (and all the other states) you have to be in reasonable fear of GBI/death. Stand Your Ground has nothing to do with it.

SYG does not require retreating in the presence of an armed attacker, which was ALSO required previously.

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