Sincere question: "Sexual preference" or "Sexual orientation"?

[Stinky The Clown]

I tend to use the terms interchangeably, but can see there is really a difference. I put up a post earlier and used the former. In rereading the post, a light bulb just lit. It occurred to me that "preference" implies choice. "Orientation" implies hard wiring.

Is there a practical or semantic difference? Does it matter? Is there . . . . well . . . . a preference for one term over the other?

[HockeyMom]

1. While I am not gay, but do have a lesbian daughter

Orientation is the better term because "sexual preference" implies a choice. I don't think there is a choice. You are who you are.

[gateley]

7. I'd agree with you. I didn't choose to be straight, it's just who I am, so I don't think

it's any different for those who are gay. And I don't understand why anyone would believe someone would "choose" a life that too often involves secrets, shame, alienation and discrimination.

I'm glad your daughter has you for her Mom. And I know you feel blessed to have her, too.

[Stinky The Clown]

8. Thanks. That's the conclusion I drew, too, for the same reason.

[kiss me im irish]

56. In most cases, that would appear to be the case.

But there are some people who choose to be with another person and it's for reasons other than what they might "prefer" had they felt comfortable choosing so. For instance:

*A woman who is raped who CHOOSES to be with women but may not have been born gay.

*A man who is gay who CHOOSES to marry and have sex (to procreate and satisfy the partner) because he wants to live a conventional life, is religious (where homosexuality is not tolerated), or is in deep denial (and wants to sire children).

*Bisexuals who CHOOSE one sex over the other, even though it appears they are bi. For instance, I read Meredith Baxter-Birney's autobiography where she discusses her marriages and current female relationship and she identifies as lesbian, which provoked a bit of incredulity in me. For one thing, although I realize that it is possible to marry and have several children and be gay, I do feel that she seems to be attracted to men, although they treated her shabbily. So I wonder if she is truly gay or is simply refusing to acknowledge her attraction to mern because of the pain they have brought her?

[GodlessBiker]

2. Preference implies choice? You prefer vanilla over chocolate ice cream. Did you choose that?

Aren't preferences presented to consciousness as givens?

[uppityperson]

6. Are you comparing taste choice of ice cream to sexual orientation?

Please clarify.

[GodlessBiker]

17. In a way, yes. We all are presented with desires that we do not choose.

We don't choose to prefer sex with men over women, or football over basketball, or vanilla over chocolate ice cream. While some preferences may be deemed more important in life's journey, that doesn't change the fact that consciousness is presented with certain facts, including preferences, over which we pretty much have no control.

We can choose to act or not act (in general) on our preferences. But we don't choose our preferences.

[uppityperson]

24. Oh, I chose my preferences all the time. I used to prefer 22 yr olds, now 50 yr olds.

I prefer baseball over hockey, but in no way is this hardwired in me.

Still am oriented hetero.

Sexual orientation is not a choice but how you are, rather like being right handed.

Preference implies choice. I no longer prefer 22 yr olds. I chose to not have sex with 22 yr olds anymore (ewwww). My preference changed. My sexual orientation has not.

[GodlessBiker]

28. So, tomorrow, choose to prefer 22 year-old again. I don't think you could.

Yes, preferences can change, but you didn't choose to change them. They change on their own, don't they? You can't pinpoint the time of a certain day when you "decided" to prefer 50 yolds over 22 yolds. One day, you simply preferred 50 yolds.

One of the mysteries of consciousness.

[uppityperson]

30. I am not sure what your point is since you seem to be saying orientation doesn't change, but

preference does. Which is my point in that orientation is hard wired, preference isn't.

Yes, I can point to when my preferences changed. The change was gradual but I noticed it when my child's friends came over and were busy flirting with each other, then read some article about a teacher/student thing, looked at the friends and went "ewwwww".

The change was gradual, and other preferences also have change over the yrs. My orientation hasn't and won't as it wasn't a choice.

[alcibiades_mystery]

37. I think Godless Biker is identifying a middle zone between "conscious choice" and "hard wired"

I happen to agree with him on that. We have all kinds of fluid desires that we do not choose in a conscious manner, but that can and do change with experience and time (and so are not "hard wired" in any biological sense). Godless Biker is calling this "preference."

Whether that kind of middle zone applies to sexual desire or typical attraction, I don't know.

I am uncomfortable with the idea that our desires are fixed at birth, since it seems to be a claim of dubious scientific merit (though it is obviously of very high political worth). "Orientation" and "hard wiring" are certainly more politically effective positions, since they don't require us to get into the thorny questions of how desires take shape and change over time - a deviously complex question that few people want to get into when they're making claims for rights in the political sphere.

[gateley]

13. But you'd probably eat either, right? Just because you prefer one doesn't mean the other doesn't

appeal to you.

[GodlessBiker]

21. My sister-in-law prefers her steak well done. If it has pink in it, she won't eat it. End of story

Certainly, however, some preferences present themselves as stronger than others.

[gateley]

23. Haha! Well, you present a good example,

and I'm with your S-I-L -- no pink for me! And vegans will not eat animal products, but I don't believe it's as simple when it comes to sexual attraction.

[Duer 157099]

3. I've gone to many orientations in my lifetime

middle school, high school, new job, but never a sexual one.

But seriously, I think the "preference" should only be applicable to bi-sexual people, because in that case they do make a choice.

[Behind the Aegis]

9. Bisexuals don't make a choice in their sexual orientation either.

[Duer 157099]

27. Not what I meant

I meant, choice of partner since either gender is fine.

[uppityperson]

16. Bisexual's orientation is bi-sexual. Their preference, their choice of who, etc, is their choice.

The don't "make a choice" to be bisexual, any more than I made choice to be heterosexual.

We do make choices according to our preferences, but the orientation is not a choice.

[Duer 157099]

29. That's what I meant

The orientation isn't a choice, but the gender of the partner is a choice. Although I bet it really isn't, the heart wants what the heart wants, is that a choice? I don't think so really. Bisexual people have twice the chance of finding love!

[uppityperson]

4. Orientation is how you are, hard wiring. Preference is what you chose to do. It depends on what

you are using it for, in what manner.

For example, my sexual orientation is hetersexual, my preference is monogamy, someone near my age. I won't go further as tmi, but it does matter, depending on what you are talking about.

I used to use "preference" but learned that it is used wrongly often, in describing orientation, so now don't.

[Johonny]

31. isn't sexual orientation more complex than that

In general studies find most people don't fall into societal sexual roles. These binned rolls, straight, gay, etc are relatively recent rolls and clearly previous generations and societies had completely different roles.

The role you end up playing in society could be considered a preference (see Marcus Bachmann) your actual sexual orientation is probably more complex than you are willing to accept.

[uppityperson]

33. It may not be digital, more analogue, but you are what you are.

It still comes down to sexual orientation is not a choice. The choice comes in with what you decide to do with it.

[EOTE]

5. I think it's more of a semantic difference, but I know many'll get offended if "preference" is used

I don't really see what the big deal is. I "prefer" women. I was probably born that way too. I know that many people think that if "preference" is used that it suggests that it's less a biological function, but I don't think it matters either way. People should be free to choose the gender of their partner as well.

One of the things that sickens me most about the arguments that the cons use about homosexuality is that they'll always suggest that orientation is a choice. I don't believe that's the case, but even if it wasn't, ARE THEY GOING TO DENY THEM THAT CHOICE? This country is all about choice and now they're suggesting that people shouldn't have the choice to choose the ones that they love? It's just a stupid and sickening argument all around.

[Behind the Aegis]

10. My sexual orientation is gay. My sexual preference is...well, if you really want to know...

[bowens43]

11. I think you said it right

"preference implies choice. Orientation implies hard wiring."

However, when we discuss things like marriage and discrimination, whether or not it's 'choice' or 'wiring' should not even be relevant. Why should it matter? Why should it even be considered? (not saying you you think it matters but it seems to be a major con argument)

[izquierdista]

12. Bisexuals might prefer the word "preference".

Because for them "orientation" is flexible.

[uppityperson]

22. Do they chose to be bisexual, or chose which sex to have sex with when?

People I know are born bisexual, that is their orientation. Whom they chose to have sex with, m or f, varies and depends on their preference at the time.

[TrogL]

26. Nope. It's also an orientation.

[yardwork]

53. That is incorrect. The orientation of bisexuals is not flexible. They are bisexual.

There is a lot of misunderstanding, even among gay folks, about bisexuals. If you think about it, you'll see that they aren't different from anybody else. For instance, let's say that you are a straight male. That means that you're attracted to women. But you're not attracted to every woman, right? Within your orientation (straight male) there are individuals whom you find attractive.

Now, suppose you're a gay male. You're attracted to men, but not all men. There are individuals you find attractive.

Same for bisexuals. They aren't attracted to all men and women. They're attracted to some individuals. Those individuals can be male or female.

[LanternWaste]

14. prefer to use my left hand because I'm oriented to use to use my left hand

My friend told me to think of it as being left or right handed. It's not a preference, it's not a choice, it's pretty much outside my control. That it is in fact, a practical difference rather than a social or verbal volition. I've looked at her concept over and over again; and regardless of the angle, it seems a perfectly logical, valid and truthful statement.

I want (a preference) to use my left hand because I'm biologically wired (an orientation) to use to use my left hand. i.e., the one necessarily follows the other rather my own discretion of the one or the other.

[JustAnotherGen]

15. I'm hard wired straight

That's how I'm oriented. I couldn't choose to be anything other than a het!

[The Magistrate]

18. Orientation, Sir, Seems Preferable To Me

[MADem]

36. I think it's certainly the less contentious choice, but I am finding this discussion very

interesting, nonetheless.

I think what matters most is the speaker's intent. I will say I think I might "prefer" the "orientation" word in my conversations.

[guitar man]

19. My sexual orientation is straight

my sexual preference is "yes please, often!"

[hifiguy]

20. Speaking as a word geek, I would opt

for orientation. As you say, preference implies choice, and I don't have any reason to think that orientation is a choice in the least. It's as hard wired as eye-color and height, IMO.

Being dx'd on the autism spectrum I have some experience with how hard-wiring in the brain works.

[HockeyMom]

25. Neither are perfect terms but

orientation is the better term than preference. Genetically wired? I don't know. Maybe someone can think of a better term than either of the current terms.

[SWTORFanatic]

34. It may be genetic or it may be nurture or may be some of both... in the end

it doesn't matter though. Also, please keep in mind that nurture doesn't only mean "how you were raised". It could be something along the lines of a hormone "imbalance" at a very young age (fetus, baby, or toddler) might contribute to someone being gay instead of straight.

I'm also in agreement with you that orientation makes sense.

[excuse not to write]

32. My preference is to have sex vs. NOT have sex

As for orientation, well, I like to be on top, but if the lady wants to do it another way, that's fine.

[SWTORFanatic]

35. I am oriented towards women. I have no interest in being with a man. I prefer brunettes, but

I won't kick blondes or redheads to the curb

Orientation and preference do not imply choice - but the words do mean a bit different. See above for my example.

Also my partner is a blonde. Hm.

[Lex]

38. Do straight people feel like they "choose" the opposite sex to be attracted to, or

do they feel like it is more wired in their brains to be attracted to the opposite sex?

Because it's the same thing for gay folks.

[HockeyMom]

41. I grew up in Greenwich Village

I went to school down the street from the Stonewall way back when. Gays were all around me. It never even occured to me to like women. That being said, gays were no more "strange and weird" than people of other races, religions, etc. Again, you are who you are, and we are not clones of one another.

[Stinky The Clown]

42. I suspect everyone already knows that. The question in the OP is which term is preferred.

I've learned that words I take for granted and use with no intent to, hurt, insult or malign can be taken by some to be hurtful, insulting, and maligning.

As the semantic light switch went on in my head, I decided to post this question rather than presume to know the answer.

[Lex]

46. Which term do you prefer for yourself, then?

[Prophet 451]

39. Go with "orientation"

"Preference" implies a choice.

[Rex]

40. My guess.

Preference would be what you want and orientation is what you need.

[Humanist_Activist]

43. Sexual preference would be, for example, whether you like being on top or bottom...

Sexual orientation helps determine which sex you like to be on top of or underneath.

[Spider Jerusalem]

44. Just "sexuality", neither preference nor orientation.

I don't think it needs an additional descriptor, really.

[The Genealogist]

45. Sexual Orientation

People are entitled to their own opinions, of course, but to me, to call my homosexuality a preference, makes little sense. I didn't wake up one morning and go, "hmmm. I think I'll choose to be attracted to males instead of females." Rather, it just happened. When I was 12, there was something more naturally appealing about being with other males than with females. It was my nature to feel that way; I didn't choose for it to be that way, it is just the way it happened. By age 14, I was having sexual urges for other males. It was my nature to feel that way; it just happened that way.

[HuckleB]

48. +1,000,000,000,000

[HuckleB]

47. Got Duh!

"Preference" is propaganda against humans.

Sheesh.

[Stinky The Clown]

50. Is that puke smiley directed at me?

[HuckleB]

51. It's aimed at the propagandists that push the "preference" meme.

[Stinky The Clown]

52. I didn't realize there were such people.

If I were a sensitive man, I could conclude you're accusing me of that.

You're not.

Are you?

[HuckleB]

59. Are you?

I haven't accused anyone of anything.

This is a huge issue in political language in this country. It has been for years, especially when it comes to gay rights.

[Stinky The Clown]

60. All you needed to do was say that.

Instead you put up some snark accompanied by a veiled attack on me for simply asking the question and asking it as sincerely as I possibly can in the one dimensional milieu that is an internet message board.

You demonstrate a good way to win friends and influence allies.

[HuckleB]

62. I said it in the first place.

All you had to do is educate yourself, in the first place. Yet, you didn't do that.

Cut the nonsense.

[Stinky The Clown]

63. The OP was my attempt to educate myself, actually

You, on the other hand, chose to cop an attitude.

[donheld]

49. Sexual preference is a yes or no question.

Sexual Orientation is not.

[ruggerson]

54. "sexual preference" is actively used by the religious right to demean gay people

and to imply that sexuality is not immutable.

Sexual orientation is always the phrase that should be used.

[Stinky The Clown]

55. Thanks!

I appreciate a straight (pun noted, but not intended) answer.

Not being on the front lines of the fight for equality, but always on the side of it, I was completely unaware the term was code. I shall no longer use the term.

Seriously. Thanks for the answer.

[ruggerson]

57. No problem STC

You've always been on the right side of the angels on this and many other issues, imho.

[Iggo]

58. I use "orientation" nowadays.

The language evolves and I try to catch up to things I haven't thought about.

Once I thought about it, I saw that "preference" is what you prefer, but "orientation" is what you are.

That one was easy.

[GliderGuider]

61. Orientation for sure, though there are complications with any label.

My sexual orientation is straight, and my BIL's orientation is gay. Neither of us made a choice, we just are that way and have been since the issue mattered to either of us.

The complication comes from the fact that the reason he's my BIL is that he was deeply in love with my sister, they were together for 19 years and had two lovely daughters. All during their marriage they both knew he was gay. After she died he dated a couple of women, but immediately realized that it had been specifically the person of my sister he'd fallen in love with - her gender had nothing to do with it. He's been living out his orientation ever since she died 20 years ago - as has his gay brother.

Labels are dangerous, slippery things - they can cause you to make all kinds of unwarranted assumptions about people. But in the choice between "preference" and "orientation" as a label, the latter is closer to the truth in most cases.

[ZombieHorde]

64. Sexual preference is for hair color (etc.), orientation is for gender.

You may prefer one hair color or another, but I am sure gender is significantly more important than hair color (etc.).