General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsAlcoholics Anonymous talk of turning to a "Higher Power." Is that woo?
Is it anti-scientific? Is it just another form of believing in space fairies?
HERVEPA
(6,107 posts)eShirl
(18,466 posts)Atman
(31,464 posts)They get a lot of government-mandated referrals, so they can't admit what that "higher power" is, but make no mistake, they're not talking about a doorknob (as they often use as an example). When meeting are opened and closed with prayer circles and obvious religious rituals, there is no way you're telling me this is "science." In fact, the science of statistical analysis clearly demonstrates that AA is no more effective than any other method of quitting. IOW, it's not the prayer circles or the twelve steps or surrendering to a "higher power." It is purely the commitment of the individual to want to quit.
AA is indeed woo.
RobinA
(9,874 posts)non-theist, but I have to take exception to "AA is woo." Or maybe it is a kind of woo that is appropriate in some cases. There is no science that can describe a particularly efficacious way to battle addiciton. Would that there were. So maybe, given the devastation wreaked by addiction, woo makes sense here IF IT WORKS. And it does work for some people.
Religion (which I do believe is woo) provides comfort to some people, helps them through bad times and in some cases helps them recover from addictions. I do not see this as a bad thing, although I am unable to make it work that way for me. To me, there is a place in the human condition for woo, just not where science has been proven to do the job.
Atman
(31,464 posts)That's not to say it's still not woo. It is religion. Does it help some people? Yes, it does. But so does organized religion. Some people find comfort and peace, therefore is not a bad thing-- so long as they find actual peace, and not some commandment to force other to follow the same path. That is the biggest problem with many organized religions, and it is a problem with many AA people; the unwillingness to accept that there is another path to serenity.
eShirl
(18,466 posts)It "gives me the creeps" the same way any religion does.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)It hasn't undergone rigorous peer reviewed study....
Blah blah blah or something like that!
Lol
MellowDem
(5,018 posts)And given the privilege religion has, it's no surprise to see DUers celebrating it and even cheering on such woo leaders as the Pope.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)In a "higher power".
Its interesting to me the most anti-woo folks are ignoring this thread.
Heidi
(58,237 posts)I do know several people who claim (and I have no reason to disbelieve them) that AA helps them stay sober, but none of them claim to be cured of the disease of alcoholism. As an analogy, my grandmother was a diabetic; after she was diagnosed, she learned to manage her diet and began taking insulin injections, but she never claimed to be cured of diabetes.
I generally fall into the "anti-woo" camp, but I acknowledge there are some things that science cannot (yet) explain.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)Keeps it in abeyance then... just like other meds keep other diseases under control
RobinA
(9,874 posts)extremely anti-woo (as a substitute for science) AND anti-religion and I am on this thread. Much of human life is technically "woo." I don't think you can be completely take the woo out of life and you can't deny people who are comforted by religion their comfort. I get why both exist. On the other hand, I have a friend who is totally immersed in woo to the point of contacting her dead mother through a telephone psychic. The flim flam involved there disgusts me and the level of delusion concerns me.
mr blur
(7,753 posts)Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)MellowDem
(5,018 posts)Like that that same higher power doesn't want you to masturbate, or that contraception is evil, or that women are second class, or that the devil is behind marriage equality.
Which is to say, people's claims alone are meaningless as evidence.
We may have no evidence or understanding of some event. That doesn't mean we just substitute god as the answer. It's ok to say "I don't know".
Vashta Nerada
(3,922 posts)Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)HappyMe
(20,277 posts)I know that AA isn't for everyone, but it has helped a lot of people turn their lives around. I can't diss something like that. I would imagine every person may decide for themselves what their personal higher power is.
snpsmom
(638 posts)and when the "higher power" stuff got emphasized he quit. Never drank again, but couldn't stomach AA anymore. Of course his addiction manifested elsewhere, but that's another story.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)I have seen AA save lives where nothing else would. Stay away from it if it bothers you. Start your own rehab group if it bothers you. It is one of the most effective avenues for addicts.
Iggo
(47,486 posts)Interesting.
mercuryblues
(14,489 posts)cases I find they exchange one addiction for another.
Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts)Could you give us a rundown, because I'd like to know when I can start reading anything by you again.
Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts)Accusing people of believing in "space fairies" isn't at all derogatory.
Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)was making - I certainly have never, ever scorned anyone on DU for their religious or spiritual beliefs.
Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts)If that's not ridiculing religion, then I'm not sure how else to read it. Perhaps you could explain more?
Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)believing in something that someone might call a higher power - for lack of better words. I have seen several post recently scorning any belief that might not be 100% certified by the American scientific establishment. But I am also aware that AA in general has a good reputation for being affective and helping a lot of people. - Even though they advocate something of a spiritual belief and a principle that would not necessarily meet the requirements of strictly orthodox atheistic scientific thinking. I wanted to see how those who reject anything outside of the strictest form of scientific orthodoxy would react to such a question. I am nonetheless absolutely gobsmacked that ANYONE could interpret my OP as ridiculing religion when anyone can see that if anything my point was the opposite.
Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts)I can see how I could have misinterpreted your comment, although I don't think it is as clear as you think. Anyway, I'm glad to know that you're not one of those snotty, arrogant jagoffs who sneer at anything the least bit related to religion. Have a good day!
Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts)I found it fascinating, and honestly, it really turned the tide for me in terms of being able to accept that we do indeed live on after our bodies die. I've done a lot of research into the subject since I read this book about 15 years ago, and I think the knowledge I've gained has helped make me a better person. (Probably shouldn't admit too much about it here on DU )
Thanks for your input!
Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)mind. When I say skeptic - I mean the word in its true meaning - not the way it is used by groups like skeptics.com who have redefined the word to mean someone who already made up their mind and has no intention of considering possibilities outside their own orthodoxy. My favorite book in regards to the whole reincarnation issue - although it is not specifically about reincarnation - is Robert Monroe's Journey's Out of the Body. That was the book that opened my mind to such possibilities.
Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts)If it's available on Amazon or B&N I'm going to get it for my ipad.
AngryAmish
(25,704 posts)AA works for some and not for others.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)Last edited Mon Jan 6, 2014, 10:59 AM - Edit history (1)
Works for others.
Is Vicodin "woo"? By your definition it is
Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts)I never got much in the way of pain relief from Vicodin. Got high as a kite, but still had the pain.
madokie
(51,076 posts)I drank for years and finally decided I didn't want to do that anymore. After about two or three days, while I dried out, I was good to go. Sure I still had an urge to go get a bottle but all I'd have to do is remind myself that I decided I was going to get that monkey off my back and that was it. I wonder if in some cases AA makes it harder for people to get off the liquid diet because they were concentrating on the booze so much. There was no way I was going to go to meetings and listen to someone else go on about how bad or good of a day they had when I could be home enjoying the sobriety I found. I just don't get it I guess.
After those three days I knew that if I wanted I could kick that habit. Been dang near 7 years now and I never look back.
April 8 the doctor told me I had to quit smoking the weed and I said ok and guess what, No smoking since. As much as I really didn't agree with him I knew it was the best for me due to my COPD and need for pain meds for my feet and legs. Quitting was the lesser of two evils so I did it.
Seeing all these buds lately on tv from Colorado isn't helping any though
To answer you're question I say yes it is.
eShirl
(18,466 posts)for the pain meds of which I don't think I could live without. If pot was legal where I could be assured of a steady supply then I would be eating a lot of brownies cause pot works better for Peripheral neurophy pain than the opiates do.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)As far as I know, they don't.
graywarrior
(59,440 posts)Leave it the fuck alone.
cordelia
(2,174 posts)on point
(2,506 posts)Moving from addiction to alcohol to addiction to magical sky people cures the physical problem but not the addiction. However some folks cannot cope with reality and I admit some magical thinking may be needed for these people
graywarrior
(59,440 posts)I got sober in AA, went to meetings every day for a few years, then a few times a week for another few years, then once a week to once a month. Been sober 26 years this Feb. Every now and then, I go to a meeting because I want to, not coz I'm addicted.
Most people in AA don't believe in magical sky people, they believe in the people that help them stay sober.
RobinA
(9,874 posts)As a mental health professional I have some major problems with AA and I have problems with some programs forcing people to go to AA when they have tried it and found in unhelpful. However, AA does work for some people and alcoholism to soooo very destructive that I believe it is one valuable tool to have in the fight against addiction. Personally, ANY tool the keeps a person sober is fine by me on a harm reduction level. There need to me many and better tools available.
get the red out
(13,458 posts)Is it now necessary to be a confirmed Atheist to be accepted at DU? I've been wondering for a while if it was going in that direction.
As far as AA goes, and this is just my opinion but lets just say I've had over 21 years of personal "research" on the subject; I truly believe that people who have addiction problems can be greatly helped in maintaining abstinence by being a part of groups that provide mutual support and friendship while working toward a shared goal of bettering their lives. I have spiritual beliefs, but that is personal and they would piss off as many believers as non-believers. I do not feel that buying into particular dogma beyond gaining knowledge of one's problem and learning ways of no longer engaging in it is all that necessary. But that's just me.
on point
(2,506 posts)cordelia
(2,174 posts)You'd be sorely mistaken.
HappyMe
(20,277 posts)So very cute.
Never mind that AA (while not for everyone) has helped a lot of people - and in turn family and friends- turn their lives around. Rehab facilities without any mention of a higher power don't work for everyone either. Addiction is a life long battle. Whatever helps a person in their fight to stay sober shouldn't be disparaged.
treestar
(82,383 posts)in our society. Belief in God isn't weird enough to be "woo."
IMO woo is stuff that is odd or off or weird in a society. There are too many churches around to make religion that odd, like it or not.
Like anti-vaccine people - most accept that vaccines work and don't cause more harm than they prevent. Or believing vitamins will cure cancer or what have you.
Capt. Obvious
(9,002 posts)X_Digger
(18,585 posts)MisterP
(23,730 posts)the philosophers say you can't escape it any more than you can prevent seeing rail lines converge on the horizon
you can, of course, try to hide your philosophy, and pretend that you don't have one--it's merely that your view's inescapably the only one!
wildbilln864
(13,382 posts)JVS
(61,935 posts)Paladin
(28,202 posts)This "Woo" spewing is out of line in this context.
HappyMe
(20,277 posts)It's incredibly mean and seriously lacks even a shred of compassion.
Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)please don't tell me that you missed that
please see post # 26
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4286733
rdharma
(6,057 posts)I guess this guy never heard of the A.W.E.S.O.M.-O 4000!