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Alcoholics Anonymous talk of turning to a "Higher Power." Is that woo? (Original Post) Douglas Carpenter Jan 2014 OP
Geez. Give it up already. HERVEPA Jan 2014 #1
I'm told it's whatever the individual wants it to be. eShirl Jan 2014 #2
It's "God." Don't buy into their b.s. Atman Jan 2014 #6
I Am a Long Time RobinA Jan 2014 #11
Oh, I don't disagree with you...but... Atman Jan 2014 #47
Don't worry, I don't buy it (the idea of it being non-religious). eShirl Jan 2014 #28
Yes but how does it work exactly? If you can't explain it then its woo. Its not scientific. riderinthestorm Jan 2014 #3
Religion is the ultimate woo... MellowDem Jan 2014 #4
Alcoholism is defined as a disease. One that many claim is cured by that belief riderinthestorm Jan 2014 #9
I've never known of any alcoholic who claimed to be cured. Heidi Jan 2014 #16
You're right of course riderinthestorm Jan 2014 #20
I Am RobinA Jan 2014 #35
No, we aren't ignoring it and yes, it's Woo. mr blur Jan 2014 #43
Nobody claims to be able to cure alcoholism, not even the invisible magical people. n/t Egalitarian Thug Jan 2014 #52
People claim all sorts of things... MellowDem Jan 2014 #60
This. Thread win. Vashta Nerada Jan 2014 #50
And, politics. One promises Nirvana after death the other "as soon as we control the govnernment". Tierra_y_Libertad Jan 2014 #57
I really don't know. HappyMe Jan 2014 #5
My grandfather was in AA when it started up, snpsmom Jan 2014 #7
I could care less. NCTraveler Jan 2014 #8
Religion is woo, eh? Iggo Jan 2014 #10
In many mercuryblues Jan 2014 #12
How many more people are you planning to make fun of, and scorn and sneer at? Sheldon Cooper Jan 2014 #13
I don't know what you are talking about Douglas Carpenter Jan 2014 #14
Silly me. Sheldon Cooper Jan 2014 #17
actually - the poiint I was making leaned more toward the opposite of what you seemed to assume I Douglas Carpenter Jan 2014 #19
Well, you wrote this: Sheldon Cooper Jan 2014 #22
actually, on a purely personal level - as much as it is difficult to admit it on DU - I lean toward Douglas Carpenter Jan 2014 #26
Okay, thanks for the additional info. I appreciate it. Sheldon Cooper Jan 2014 #31
I even read Brian Weiss' book too and passed on to a number of people Douglas Carpenter Jan 2014 #33
Did you like it? Sheldon Cooper Jan 2014 #36
oh yes, i liked it - although as with any book on such matters I read with an open yet skeptical Douglas Carpenter Jan 2014 #40
Thanks for the book recommendation. Sheldon Cooper Jan 2014 #46
yes it is woo AngryAmish Jan 2014 #15
So do some medicines - vicodin for example doesn't work for me. riderinthestorm Jan 2014 #18
Seriously. Sheldon Cooper Jan 2014 #23
I just don't get AA madokie Jan 2014 #21
I'm guessing he didn't say anything about eating it? eShirl Jan 2014 #32
Drug test madokie Jan 2014 #44
Does Bill claim predictable results? Recursion Jan 2014 #24
It's a support system created by a narcissist but that actually works for some people graywarrior Jan 2014 #25
This. cordelia Jan 2014 #29
Value in support system. None in substitute one addiction for another on point Jan 2014 #37
Yeah graywarrior Jan 2014 #45
This Is Where I Am RobinA Jan 2014 #38
I am beginning to become confused also get the red out Jan 2014 #27
Obvious woo. Just because certain stupidstitions are old doesn't mean true on point Jan 2014 #30
"Stupidstitions"? You must think you're very clever. cordelia Jan 2014 #34
You got that right. HappyMe Jan 2014 #41
No, religion is generally accepted treestar Jan 2014 #39
Yes Capt. Obvious Jan 2014 #42
It's pseudo-religious claptrap, at the very least. n/t X_Digger Jan 2014 #48
technically it's an "epistemological fulcrum" or a "first cause" MisterP Jan 2014 #49
yes! n/t wildbilln864 Jan 2014 #51
Yes! JVS Jan 2014 #53
How about refraining from trashing peoples' efforts to deal with a grim problem? Paladin Jan 2014 #54
I think so too. HappyMe Jan 2014 #55
please see post #26 Douglas Carpenter Jan 2014 #59
that was my point Douglas Carpenter Jan 2014 #58
Bailey told officers that he was the “first half-man/half-robot created by the government. rdharma Jan 2014 #56

Atman

(31,464 posts)
6. It's "God." Don't buy into their b.s.
Mon Jan 6, 2014, 08:42 AM
Jan 2014

They get a lot of government-mandated referrals, so they can't admit what that "higher power" is, but make no mistake, they're not talking about a doorknob (as they often use as an example). When meeting are opened and closed with prayer circles and obvious religious rituals, there is no way you're telling me this is "science." In fact, the science of statistical analysis clearly demonstrates that AA is no more effective than any other method of quitting. IOW, it's not the prayer circles or the twelve steps or surrendering to a "higher power." It is purely the commitment of the individual to want to quit.

AA is indeed woo.

RobinA

(9,874 posts)
11. I Am a Long Time
Mon Jan 6, 2014, 09:52 AM
Jan 2014

non-theist, but I have to take exception to "AA is woo." Or maybe it is a kind of woo that is appropriate in some cases. There is no science that can describe a particularly efficacious way to battle addiciton. Would that there were. So maybe, given the devastation wreaked by addiction, woo makes sense here IF IT WORKS. And it does work for some people.

Religion (which I do believe is woo) provides comfort to some people, helps them through bad times and in some cases helps them recover from addictions. I do not see this as a bad thing, although I am unable to make it work that way for me. To me, there is a place in the human condition for woo, just not where science has been proven to do the job.

Atman

(31,464 posts)
47. Oh, I don't disagree with you...but...
Mon Jan 6, 2014, 01:11 PM
Jan 2014

That's not to say it's still not woo. It is religion. Does it help some people? Yes, it does. But so does organized religion. Some people find comfort and peace, therefore is not a bad thing-- so long as they find actual peace, and not some commandment to force other to follow the same path. That is the biggest problem with many organized religions, and it is a problem with many AA people; the unwillingness to accept that there is another path to serenity.

eShirl

(18,466 posts)
28. Don't worry, I don't buy it (the idea of it being non-religious).
Mon Jan 6, 2014, 10:44 AM
Jan 2014

It "gives me the creeps" the same way any religion does.

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
3. Yes but how does it work exactly? If you can't explain it then its woo. Its not scientific.
Mon Jan 6, 2014, 08:22 AM
Jan 2014

It hasn't undergone rigorous peer reviewed study....

Blah blah blah or something like that!

Lol

MellowDem

(5,018 posts)
4. Religion is the ultimate woo...
Mon Jan 6, 2014, 08:22 AM
Jan 2014

And given the privilege religion has, it's no surprise to see DUers celebrating it and even cheering on such woo leaders as the Pope.

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
9. Alcoholism is defined as a disease. One that many claim is cured by that belief
Mon Jan 6, 2014, 09:41 AM
Jan 2014

In a "higher power".

Its interesting to me the most anti-woo folks are ignoring this thread.

Heidi

(58,237 posts)
16. I've never known of any alcoholic who claimed to be cured.
Mon Jan 6, 2014, 09:59 AM
Jan 2014

I do know several people who claim (and I have no reason to disbelieve them) that AA helps them stay sober, but none of them claim to be cured of the disease of alcoholism. As an analogy, my grandmother was a diabetic; after she was diagnosed, she learned to manage her diet and began taking insulin injections, but she never claimed to be cured of diabetes.

I generally fall into the "anti-woo" camp, but I acknowledge there are some things that science cannot (yet) explain.

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
20. You're right of course
Mon Jan 6, 2014, 10:05 AM
Jan 2014

Keeps it in abeyance then... just like other meds keep other diseases under control

RobinA

(9,874 posts)
35. I Am
Mon Jan 6, 2014, 10:58 AM
Jan 2014

extremely anti-woo (as a substitute for science) AND anti-religion and I am on this thread. Much of human life is technically "woo." I don't think you can be completely take the woo out of life and you can't deny people who are comforted by religion their comfort. I get why both exist. On the other hand, I have a friend who is totally immersed in woo to the point of contacting her dead mother through a telephone psychic. The flim flam involved there disgusts me and the level of delusion concerns me.

MellowDem

(5,018 posts)
60. People claim all sorts of things...
Mon Jan 6, 2014, 07:17 PM
Jan 2014

Like that that same higher power doesn't want you to masturbate, or that contraception is evil, or that women are second class, or that the devil is behind marriage equality.

Which is to say, people's claims alone are meaningless as evidence.

We may have no evidence or understanding of some event. That doesn't mean we just substitute god as the answer. It's ok to say "I don't know".

HappyMe

(20,277 posts)
5. I really don't know.
Mon Jan 6, 2014, 08:32 AM
Jan 2014

I know that AA isn't for everyone, but it has helped a lot of people turn their lives around. I can't diss something like that. I would imagine every person may decide for themselves what their personal higher power is.

snpsmom

(638 posts)
7. My grandfather was in AA when it started up,
Mon Jan 6, 2014, 09:38 AM
Jan 2014

and when the "higher power" stuff got emphasized he quit. Never drank again, but couldn't stomach AA anymore. Of course his addiction manifested elsewhere, but that's another story.

 

NCTraveler

(30,481 posts)
8. I could care less.
Mon Jan 6, 2014, 09:41 AM
Jan 2014

I have seen AA save lives where nothing else would. Stay away from it if it bothers you. Start your own rehab group if it bothers you. It is one of the most effective avenues for addicts.

Sheldon Cooper

(3,724 posts)
13. How many more people are you planning to make fun of, and scorn and sneer at?
Mon Jan 6, 2014, 09:54 AM
Jan 2014

Could you give us a rundown, because I'd like to know when I can start reading anything by you again.

Douglas Carpenter

(20,226 posts)
19. actually - the poiint I was making leaned more toward the opposite of what you seemed to assume I
Mon Jan 6, 2014, 10:03 AM
Jan 2014

was making - I certainly have never, ever scorned anyone on DU for their religious or spiritual beliefs.

Sheldon Cooper

(3,724 posts)
22. Well, you wrote this:
Mon Jan 6, 2014, 10:26 AM
Jan 2014
Is it just another form of believing in space fairies?


If that's not ridiculing religion, then I'm not sure how else to read it. Perhaps you could explain more?

Douglas Carpenter

(20,226 posts)
26. actually, on a purely personal level - as much as it is difficult to admit it on DU - I lean toward
Mon Jan 6, 2014, 10:36 AM
Jan 2014

believing in something that someone might call a higher power - for lack of better words. I have seen several post recently scorning any belief that might not be 100% certified by the American scientific establishment. But I am also aware that AA in general has a good reputation for being affective and helping a lot of people. - Even though they advocate something of a spiritual belief and a principle that would not necessarily meet the requirements of strictly orthodox atheistic scientific thinking. I wanted to see how those who reject anything outside of the strictest form of scientific orthodoxy would react to such a question. I am nonetheless absolutely gobsmacked that ANYONE could interpret my OP as ridiculing religion when anyone can see that if anything my point was the opposite.

Sheldon Cooper

(3,724 posts)
31. Okay, thanks for the additional info. I appreciate it.
Mon Jan 6, 2014, 10:50 AM
Jan 2014

I can see how I could have misinterpreted your comment, although I don't think it is as clear as you think. Anyway, I'm glad to know that you're not one of those snotty, arrogant jagoffs who sneer at anything the least bit related to religion. Have a good day!

Sheldon Cooper

(3,724 posts)
36. Did you like it?
Mon Jan 6, 2014, 10:58 AM
Jan 2014

I found it fascinating, and honestly, it really turned the tide for me in terms of being able to accept that we do indeed live on after our bodies die. I've done a lot of research into the subject since I read this book about 15 years ago, and I think the knowledge I've gained has helped make me a better person. (Probably shouldn't admit too much about it here on DU )
Thanks for your input!

Douglas Carpenter

(20,226 posts)
40. oh yes, i liked it - although as with any book on such matters I read with an open yet skeptical
Mon Jan 6, 2014, 11:09 AM
Jan 2014

mind. When I say skeptic - I mean the word in its true meaning - not the way it is used by groups like skeptics.com who have redefined the word to mean someone who already made up their mind and has no intention of considering possibilities outside their own orthodoxy. My favorite book in regards to the whole reincarnation issue - although it is not specifically about reincarnation - is Robert Monroe's Journey's Out of the Body. That was the book that opened my mind to such possibilities.

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
18. So do some medicines - vicodin for example doesn't work for me.
Mon Jan 6, 2014, 10:03 AM
Jan 2014

Last edited Mon Jan 6, 2014, 10:59 AM - Edit history (1)

Works for others.

Is Vicodin "woo"? By your definition it is

Sheldon Cooper

(3,724 posts)
23. Seriously.
Mon Jan 6, 2014, 10:27 AM
Jan 2014

I never got much in the way of pain relief from Vicodin. Got high as a kite, but still had the pain.

madokie

(51,076 posts)
21. I just don't get AA
Mon Jan 6, 2014, 10:07 AM
Jan 2014

I drank for years and finally decided I didn't want to do that anymore. After about two or three days, while I dried out, I was good to go. Sure I still had an urge to go get a bottle but all I'd have to do is remind myself that I decided I was going to get that monkey off my back and that was it. I wonder if in some cases AA makes it harder for people to get off the liquid diet because they were concentrating on the booze so much. There was no way I was going to go to meetings and listen to someone else go on about how bad or good of a day they had when I could be home enjoying the sobriety I found. I just don't get it I guess.
After those three days I knew that if I wanted I could kick that habit. Been dang near 7 years now and I never look back.
April 8 the doctor told me I had to quit smoking the weed and I said ok and guess what, No smoking since. As much as I really didn't agree with him I knew it was the best for me due to my COPD and need for pain meds for my feet and legs. Quitting was the lesser of two evils so I did it.

Seeing all these buds lately on tv from Colorado isn't helping any though

To answer you're question I say yes it is.

madokie

(51,076 posts)
44. Drug test
Mon Jan 6, 2014, 11:27 AM
Jan 2014

for the pain meds of which I don't think I could live without. If pot was legal where I could be assured of a steady supply then I would be eating a lot of brownies cause pot works better for Peripheral neurophy pain than the opiates do.

graywarrior

(59,440 posts)
25. It's a support system created by a narcissist but that actually works for some people
Mon Jan 6, 2014, 10:29 AM
Jan 2014

Leave it the fuck alone.

on point

(2,506 posts)
37. Value in support system. None in substitute one addiction for another
Mon Jan 6, 2014, 11:03 AM
Jan 2014

Moving from addiction to alcohol to addiction to magical sky people cures the physical problem but not the addiction. However some folks cannot cope with reality and I admit some magical thinking may be needed for these people

graywarrior

(59,440 posts)
45. Yeah
Mon Jan 6, 2014, 11:29 AM
Jan 2014

I got sober in AA, went to meetings every day for a few years, then a few times a week for another few years, then once a week to once a month. Been sober 26 years this Feb. Every now and then, I go to a meeting because I want to, not coz I'm addicted.
Most people in AA don't believe in magical sky people, they believe in the people that help them stay sober.

RobinA

(9,874 posts)
38. This Is Where I Am
Mon Jan 6, 2014, 11:07 AM
Jan 2014

As a mental health professional I have some major problems with AA and I have problems with some programs forcing people to go to AA when they have tried it and found in unhelpful. However, AA does work for some people and alcoholism to soooo very destructive that I believe it is one valuable tool to have in the fight against addiction. Personally, ANY tool the keeps a person sober is fine by me on a harm reduction level. There need to me many and better tools available.

get the red out

(13,458 posts)
27. I am beginning to become confused also
Mon Jan 6, 2014, 10:40 AM
Jan 2014

Is it now necessary to be a confirmed Atheist to be accepted at DU? I've been wondering for a while if it was going in that direction.

As far as AA goes, and this is just my opinion but lets just say I've had over 21 years of personal "research" on the subject; I truly believe that people who have addiction problems can be greatly helped in maintaining abstinence by being a part of groups that provide mutual support and friendship while working toward a shared goal of bettering their lives. I have spiritual beliefs, but that is personal and they would piss off as many believers as non-believers. I do not feel that buying into particular dogma beyond gaining knowledge of one's problem and learning ways of no longer engaging in it is all that necessary. But that's just me.

HappyMe

(20,277 posts)
41. You got that right.
Mon Jan 6, 2014, 11:15 AM
Jan 2014

So very cute.

Never mind that AA (while not for everyone) has helped a lot of people - and in turn family and friends- turn their lives around. Rehab facilities without any mention of a higher power don't work for everyone either. Addiction is a life long battle. Whatever helps a person in their fight to stay sober shouldn't be disparaged.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
39. No, religion is generally accepted
Mon Jan 6, 2014, 11:08 AM
Jan 2014

in our society. Belief in God isn't weird enough to be "woo."

IMO woo is stuff that is odd or off or weird in a society. There are too many churches around to make religion that odd, like it or not.

Like anti-vaccine people - most accept that vaccines work and don't cause more harm than they prevent. Or believing vitamins will cure cancer or what have you.

MisterP

(23,730 posts)
49. technically it's an "epistemological fulcrum" or a "first cause"
Mon Jan 6, 2014, 04:28 PM
Jan 2014

the philosophers say you can't escape it any more than you can prevent seeing rail lines converge on the horizon

you can, of course, try to hide your philosophy, and pretend that you don't have one--it's merely that your view's inescapably the only one!

Paladin

(28,202 posts)
54. How about refraining from trashing peoples' efforts to deal with a grim problem?
Mon Jan 6, 2014, 04:46 PM
Jan 2014

This "Woo" spewing is out of line in this context.
 

rdharma

(6,057 posts)
56. Bailey told officers that he was the “first half-man/half-robot created by the government.
Mon Jan 6, 2014, 05:30 PM
Jan 2014

I guess this guy never heard of the A.W.E.S.O.M.-O 4000!



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