Marines: Most Female Recruits Don't Meet New Pullup Standard

[The Straight Story]

Starting Jan. 1, every woman in the Marines Corps was supposed to meet a new physical standard by performing three pullups. But that has been put off.

The Marine Corps announced it quietly. There was no news conference — just a notice on and an item on its own TV show, .

Lance Cpl. Ally Beiswanger explained that the pullup test had been put off until sometime next year, to gather more data and "ensure all female Marines are given the best opportunity to succeed."

So far, female Marines are not succeeding. Fifty-five percent of female recruits tested at the end of boot camp were doing fewer than three pullups; only 1 percent of male recruits failed the test.

The three pullups is already the minimum required for all male Marines. Now the Marine Corps has postponed the plan, and that's raising questions about whether women have the physical strength to handle ground combat, which they'll be allowed to do beginning in 2016.

http://www.npr.org/2013/12/27/257363943/marines-most-female-recruits-dont-meet-new-pullup-standard

[Bradical79]

1. Is the pullup important for combat?

[B2G]

2. It measures upper arm strength

So I can't imagine it's unimportant for ground combat.

[LanternWaste]

5. One may then presume that Lyudmila Mykhailivna Pavlichenko (300+ kills) could do push-ups?

One may then presume that history student Lyudmila Pavlichenko (300+ kills) could do push-ups?

[Ranchemp.]

6. I don't think the Soviet High Command cared

much about that during WWII, they cared about her accuracy, which she was very good at.

[LanternWaste]

8. I suppose being effective is more importance than doing push-ups.

I suppose being effective is more importance than doing push-ups.

[B2G]

10. It depends on what job you're doing in battle

Snipers have a different skill set from ground fighters.

But I've seen her picture and I have no doubt she could do more pushups than most men.

[LanternWaste]

18. Female tankers won the Order of the Red Star, female fighter aces in the air force, females made up

Female tankers won the Order of the Red Star, female fighter aces in the air force, females made up over 65% of guerrilla forces, etc. (Kennedy, Rise and Fall of the Great Powers). Seems they pretty much held their own across the board.

But yeah... being effective does seem to hold more weight than X amount of push ups, regardless of how one rationalizes otherwise.

[former9thward]

36. You don't base your military on what an outlier can do.

Do you really think modern American women are of the same average strength as a Russian woman in WW II. Please.... Not only that but Russia was being invaded by millions of troops. In a case like that any standards go out the window.

[Glassunion]

40. The modern Marine Scout/Sniper is a very physically demanding job

In the Marines, all snipers must first complete infantry (ground fighters) training first.

The physical requirements are much higher than that of infantry...
They must be able to run 3 miles in 18 minutes, 20 pull-ups, 100 sit-ups in under 2 minutes. 500 meter swim using side or breast stroke, 50 meter swim holding a weight out of water, tread water for 30 seconds holding a weight out of water, with no signs of panic.

Only about 40% that volunteer actually graduate scout/sniper school.

[senseandsensibility]

28. Pull-ups.

There seems to be a big difference between push-ups and pull-ups as regards females ability to do them.

[NM_Birder]

58. the ability to carry your own gear,

and possibly that of a fellow soldier is only one of a thousand possibilities that is key to the physical training of a soldier.

Physical fitness and physical ability matters, there is more to combat than pulling a trigger. Combat is a numbers game, weak soldiers do not get offset by strong ones, weak soldiers typically get other soldiers killed.

[CreekDog]

79. women aren't weak

[NM_Birder]

108. Not all men and not all women can pass the test.

the point of physical testing is to determine who is capable of the minimum required ability of the soldier to perform objectives, regardless of sex.

the point of your post is obvious, and weak.

[LionsTigersRedWings]

124. you're right, they are not weak, just not strong enough to perform 3 pull-ups.

[CreekDog]

129. all women aren't strong enough to perform 3 pull ups?

uh huh.

[LionsTigersRedWings]

130. not all but some.

there are even men that can't do 3 pull-ups. Those people are not going to be serving in battle.


Plain and simple.

[NM_Birder]

139. Your comment is meant to be as

incendiary as some of the posters I've engaged.

Not all men can pass the fitness requirements either, there are women just as capable as men for combat. The minimum requirement threshold is specifically designed to NOT place soldiers in positions that will endanger themselves, fellow soldiers and the objectives they are required to achieve.

If a soldier in training cannot pass the minimum physical requirements, then they will not be a soldier. That goes for men and women, just as it should be.

[NM_Birder]

140. I misunderstood you,

I mistook your comment and mistakenly took it as an argument starter.
Don't know how to erase it.

[MattBaggins]

107. A pull up does not test ones ability to perform a fireman's carry

[NM_Birder]

109. Physical traning has many objectives

and many requirements. Physical ability is required to be a soldier, there is more to being a soldier than carrying a rifle, you know that or at least I'd like to think you would know that.

poor attempt, try again.

[MattBaggins]

111. Ten years in the Army so yes I do know about PT

I had one of the best PT scores in my entire platoon and troop. I competed in Regimental competitions and went to air assault school.

Pull ups don't test shit except a particular muscle group of certain sections of people.

Picking someone up and carrying them tests your ability to pick someone up and carry them.

Poor attempt try again.

[NM_Birder]

115. you had one of the best platoon and troop PT scores etc etc,

yet never learned WHY physical training is important.
funny how only the near best of everything, can never understand the importance of what they learned, you must be a natural.

I lied, it's not funny,...it's obvious.

[MattBaggins]

117. You are not a smart as you think you are

All you can do is high school level insults.

YOU and only YOU, do not understand training at all and the simple concept that one can ask what a particular test is actually testing or trying to achieve and adjust accordingly. You are a one track mind.

[NM_Birder]

122. Already ?

I thought you would at least try and keep up for a little longer.

physical training matters.....you know that, and you would know why, or at least you should have after 10 years.
I think you are used to a different type of person to try and pick on.

BZ

[MattBaggins]

133. You must be an undercover conservative

You start being rude and nasty and then try to play the victim. How adorable.

[NM_Birder]

134. everything I've said is correct.

Everything you have said has been clear, just not correct.
I'm no victim, but I am adorable.

BZ

[NaturalHigh]

128. "You are not a smart as you think you are"

Wow...now that's a zinger.

[NM_Birder]

135. Cav Trooper is doing the best he can,

to instruct me on why he does not believe in physical training requirements for combat soldiers.

[wercal]

256. Since we're giving credentials...

I too went to Air Assault school...and Airborne school...and I was a.certified MFT (master fitness trainer).

First of all, the fitness training that you knew in the military did not always exist. It came into being after a realization in the late seventies and ewrly eighties that the average American was no longer fit...so fitness would have to be trained in the military. So that's why the Army that you knew has a borderline obsession with fitness.

And that fitness is measured in VERY arbitrary ways. The entirety of a soldier's physical fitness is condensed into pushups, situps, 2 mile run. But it has to be arbitrary...how else can you compare people without a measuring stick.

In the marines they do pull-ups. Whenever I trained with marines, I was shocked at their inability to do push ups on par with the Army guys. But of course they were better at pull ups. You see we were all training for the test...no different than a teacher priming students for any other standardized test. So sure, the ability to do pull ups is an imperfect measure of fitness...but it IS the measuring stick in the marines. Ergo, wll marines should measure up...or go to remedial training.

Btw, you were cav...I was a tanker. I don't know if you were on a Bradley or a HMMVEE, but I can think of alot of tasks on a Bradley that require alot of strength. I was a cadet and was in the unique.position of 'trying out' the M1 and the Bradley, in a group that included women. I'm sure that some women could load a tank round...but in my observation, none in our group could, within the time limit. Now, if the Armor branch is ever opened to women, I would hope and expect that they are required to be able to load a round, lift a block of track, carry the .50, etc. The crew is limited, and everybody has to quite literally pull their own weight.

[proudretiredvet]

301. Good experience and knowledge.

How come there are no women who are AB Rangers? To my knowledge there are none wearing the tab. The testing and training is open to women all they have to do is successfully complete it.

Retired 75th airborne.

[Sweet Lou]

158. But what it does do is

Allow the soldier to pull a slip with the risers from a T-10 parachute into their chest and slow their decent with all of their equipment or pull a slip and move out from a collision with another jumper. It also shows that a person can reach up with nothing but the strength of their arm and grab a wounded soldier and pull them to behind cover with out exposing themselves to enemy fire, been there done that. All off these standards have been put into place to weed out week males. If a woman can meet those standards then i have no problem with her but if she gets a pass then she will get people killed. The infantry is a whole different world than being a tanker or a pilot. Still today as it has been for thousands of years it comes down to hand to hand combat with the possibility of no weapons and just brute strength and the willingness and the capability to snap the neck of your foe.

[treestar]

153. So isn't that why they rule out the weak ?

Then OTOH, why not test them in carrying the gear rather than the pull-ups?

[Glassunion]

154. They do

This is just a small part. The PFT is just a semi annual test.

[NM_Birder]

275. What a fantastic program idea !

General physical conditioning is simply too complicated a concept to understand WHY it would be important in the life of a soldier.
How about a personal trainer for every recruit to test them individually on every single possible life event that can be thought of. That is going to be one hell of a training program, but at least there will be fewer people here confused as to the importance of fitness training in the military and it's possible use.

The number of people on this board that don't understand a need for minimum physical training requirements in the military is disappointing to say the least. Lowering the accomplishment threshold to the lowest ability, does not mean everyone succeeds.

[El_Johns]

199. Pull ups aren't a test of whether you can carry your own gear. I have never been able to

do pull ups, but I was always able to carry heavy loads in a backpack & walk long distances.

[NM_Birder]

271. I did not say pull ups are a test if you can carry gear,

I said it was one of a thousand possible uses to being physically fit.

Minimum requirements are set to establish a minimum level of ability, a minimum level of ability is required in all aspects of life both in and out of service, not being able to understand why minimum levels of ability are necessary is why manual labor pools are deep.

[B2G]

19. Pavlichenko was a pole vaulter

I seriously doubt she had any problems with pushups or pullups.

[LanternWaste]

21. I guess that really, really helped with her accuracy..

I guess the push ups and pole vaulting really, really assisted her accuracy...

[B2G]

23. It's about overall physical condition

She was in active combat, so she had to be in excellent shape.

Being a sniper involves more than just laying on the ground and picking people off.

[The Straight Story]

24. From the article:

"they'll need to be strong enough to climb those mud walls and carry ammunition."

Being in the marines isn't just shooting a rifle. Sometimes you have to march, carry a lot, climb, etc. And being that this is a voluntary force they set standards which most likely are relaxed during major wars (like ww2).

[B2G]

27. And in our lawsuit-happy society, can you imagine

the suits if the Marines just put anyone in this situation regardless of physical fitness levels and they are injured or killed?

There are many standards required to serve in the military. Physical fitness is just one of them.

[Jesus Malverde]

64. Pavlichenko was sent to Canada and the United States for a publicity visit...

Pavlichenko was sent to Canada and the United States for a publicity visit and became the first Soviet citizen to be received by a US President when Franklin Roosevelt welcomed her to the White House.

While meeting with reporters in Washington, D.C. she was dumbfounded about the kind of questions put to her. "One reporter even criticized the length of the skirt of my uniform, saying that in America women wear shorter skirts and besides my uniform made me look fat".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyudmila_Pavlichenko

[Drahthaardogs]

75. A pullup is an upper back exercise, with some recruitment of the biceps

it does not measure upper arm strength.

[MattBaggins]

106. No it measures one specific form of so called upper body strength

using only one core set of muscles in a particular way that favors men.

Can the women pick up and move equipment? Than the push up test is meaningless.

[joe_sixpack]

164. I take it that you favor

Different tests for male and female trainees?

[Harmony Blue]

250. Three pull ups most physically fit females can achieve

most high school female athletes with moderate weight training can do so easily. If this requirement is to be waived then it should be waived for males as well. In other words you are arguing pulls up have no bearing in doing the job of moving equipment then it should be applied fairly and equally for both genders.

[MattBaggins]

255. Paging captain obvious

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. It can be when going over obstacles.

It is upper body strength.

[dipsydoodle]

80. Doesn't matter

equal opportunities are equal opportunities.

[Xithras]

196. Marines are the branch most likely to engage in hand to hand combat.

We tend to think of modern warfare as a sterile thing fought with drones and tanks, but Marines are still routinely sent into situations where they are engaging enemy forces at point blank range. Just last year a Marine was awarded the Navy Cross after coming face to face with four Taliban fighters in Afghanistan. He mowed three of them down at a range of less than three feet, but his SAW ran empty before he hit the fourth. Out of ammo, he did what any self respecting Marine would do...he tackled the Taliban fighter, wrestled his rifle out of his hands while they were scrambling around on the ground, and proceeded to beat the Taliban fighter with the stock until he caved in his skull. He beat the guy to death with his own rifle.

So, yeah, I'd say upper body strength is important. When a 250 pound enemy fighter is trying to shove a combat knife down your throat, you'll either have the strength to fight him off, or you'll be coming home in a flag draped box.

[pinboy3niner]

213. The Army Infantry would disagree with your subject line

[grahamhgreen]

205. Most people can train up to 3 pullups in a few months

[demosincebirth]

229. Every muscle in your body is important for combat. And they will be used to the extreme at times.

Arm strength is probably the most important.

[eShirl]

3. strength training; it can be done

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/2013/03/14/the-mechanics-of-the-pull-up-and-why-women-can-absolutely-do-them/

It comes down to musculature. Men do in fact tend to have more muscle in their upper bodies ripe for the bulging. More muscle makes the work easier. But this advantage over women is fleeting. It may take a woman more time to develop the musculature required, but once developed, those muscles function like any males’. Overcoming this steep curve is no easy task. I suspect that because few among us have the time or effort available to significantly change our musculature, our bias against women doing pull-ups is not because they actually can’t do them, but because of men’s fortunate physiology.

Concluding that women can’t do pull-ups has a more sinister effect. I have trained many women who outright refuse to even try one. Women already believe that a pull-up is out of reach before their hands touch the bar. How many able women are discriminated against by this cultural truism?

Pealing back the bias, to me it’s obvious: if a woman isn’t culturally dissuaded from trying, she is absolutely able to pull up and hit her head against the glass ceiling, smashing through it.

It is easy to buy into the cultural stereotype of “the gentle sex,” but it simply isn’t true. If you put a woman in a situation where she has to effectively do pull-ups all the time, as in rock climbing, she will learn to do one. Of course I am biased here, but rock climbing is the perfect counterpoint to the “women can’t do pull-ups” truism. The same kind of glass ceiling is present in the sciences, where a significant bias against women festers. Imagine how many women could excel in science if not for the pernicious myth that science and math are a man’s game. Likewise, fitness isn’t defined by the Arnold Schwarzeneggers of the world. If you give women a chance to pull past the bias and the bullshit, they often do.

[B2G]

4. And it needs to be done

if women want to be in ground combat.

Those tests are in place for a reason. Anyone, male or female, that cannot defend themselves and their fellow soldiers on the battlefield should not be there in the first place.

They are a danger to themselves and to those around them.

[boston bean]

11. I'm just picturing all those men doing pull ups to defeat the enemy on the battlefield...

LMAO!

[hack89]

26. A better test would be to pick up and carry another marine

a 100 feet or so. Carry severely wounded soldiers to safety happens all the time in combat.

Upper body strength is extremely important to foot soldiers because of the heavy loads they carry into combat. it is less important for other combat arms.

[Ash_F]

206. You are probably right but that would weed out a lot more than 1% of men as well. /nt

[bluesbassman]

35. Will you still be LYAO when you see the photo of a dead Marine...

Who bled out on the battlefield because someone lacked the upper body strength to carry them to safety?

I really expected better from you.

[treestar]

157. Are they really ever on battlefields any more?

Are there any battles on a patch of ground any more?

[Glassunion]

160. Yes

[bluesbassman]

161. Battlefields take all shapes and sizes.

Getting shot on a street corner versus a grassy field makes little difference to the person who was shot. It's still a battle on a patch of ground.

[treestar]

171. It's a huge difference

There's no "Battle of Gettysburg" types of situations now.

There are medics to carry injured soldiers, too.

It's more likely a roadside bomb, getting shot down. How many actual instances of having to carry other soldiers now, or really ever, existed? Why is that the most and only important thing? Funny how that is. Little men were never kicked out of the army for not being able to carry bigger soldiers, even when there were such battles.

[Glassunion]

260. What?

How is being shot on a street corner, a huge difference from being shot in an open field? Any casualty, be it a bullet wound in an open field or a street corner, a roadside IED, a mortar or artillery shell from afar, there is a casualty. That person, dead or alive needs to be removed as quickly as possible from the fighting.

"How many actual instances of having to carry other soldiers now, or really ever, existed?" - In war this is a fairly common occurrence. How many thousands of Soldiers/Marines/Airmen have been wounded or killed in action in Iraq and Afghanistan? Each and every single one of these people, needed to be moved out of danger quickly.

"Why is that the most and only important thing?" - It isn't. But it ranks up there very high. Helping a wounded fellow, off the field and out of danger is of paramount importance.

It's more likely a roadside bomb, getting shot down. - You are correct in sating that a roadside bomb is more likely, however, getting shot down is rare in comparison to other casualties. That said, roadside bombs are not the end of an encounter, but can actually be the beginning.

[treestar]

261. So the why aren't small men excluded?

And skinny men?

[Glassunion]

263. They are

The Marines have height and weight limitations on both the low and high side. So you cannot be overweight nor can you be underweight. Nor can you be too tall or short.

If you do fit into the specifications of height and weight, you still must get through the ISTs, and if you cannot pass all of those physical tests, you cannot be a Marine.

[Lost_Count]

176. Sorry but it boggles my mind that someone would be so ignorant to even ask this...

Not ignorant in an insulting way but in the literal sense...

Uninformed...

It.. boggles...

[treestar]

179. Wow, you must be so smart!

[Ash_F]

203. Video games.

Too many video games.

[Katashi_itto]

244. Lol!!

[frylock]

86. now picture those marines pulling themselves up out of a hole or up onto a wall..

in full gear.

[boston bean]

87. I can, my comment was to articulate how I didn't really feel a three push ups was a good

measurement for either men or women, regarding strength and battle requirements.

I think pulling oneself up out of a hole onto a wall in full gear would be a better way to quantify and qualify.

[LionsTigersRedWings]

125. If you can't do a pull-up then I doubt you can pull yourself out of a hole with full gear.

[treestar]

174. I would be you could do anything under that kind of stress

In real wars, they take anybody. They don't give up the battle because well we don't have enough strong young men. They bring out the older guys and the younger boys. Now, maybe even the women.

[one_voice]

240. It's pull ups not push ups...

and if you really believed what you wrote in your last line you wouldn't have made this comment...

I'm just picturing all those men doing pull ups to defeat the enemy on the battlefield...
LMAO!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024235491#post11


Because it's pullups that would help pull oneself out of a hole or over a wall in full gear, quite likely on a battlefield.

Snarky comments like yours don't help women's causes.

You'd have been better off putting a video up like this showing some kick ass women throwing up some pull ups....that helps women's causes not belittling men.

[demosincebirth]

230. Are Marines the only fighting force?

[MADem]

104. 75% of Armed Forces applicants are not physically qualified to enter any branch of service,

never mind the USMC.

Of course, one day, the whole "strong enough to carry shit on the battlefield" argument will go away. Why?

They've been working on this thing for decades, now. They're getting closer!

As for pull ups, I suspect a not-small piece of that rule change was "force shaping" with a dash of hidden sexism. They wanted to cull the ranks of female personnel, but they didn't realize that it would cut so deeply, and as a consequence they've had to dial it back.

We are in the midst of a military drawdown right now. You will see a LOT of people getting the boot for being too fat, not sufficiently fit, and not jumping through advancement hoops at a fast enough pace.

Between 1998 and 2010, the number of active-duty military personnel deemed overweight or obese more than tripled. In 2010, 86,186 troops, or 5.3 percent of the force, received at least one clinical diagnosis as overweight or obese, according to the Armed Forces Health Surveillance Center.

The trend has prompted the military to reexamine its training programs and is driving commanders to weed out soldiers deemed unfit to fight. “A healthy and fit force is essential to national security,” said Cmdr. Leslie Hull-Ryde, a Pentagon spokeswoman. “Our service members must be physically prepared to deploy on a moment’s notice anywhere on the globe to extremely austere and demanding conditions.”

During the first 10 months of this year, the Army kicked out 1,625 soldiers for being out of shape, about 15 times the number discharged for that reason in 2007, the peak of wartime deployment cycles.

Under a mandate to reduce the force by tens of thousands in coming years, the Army has instructed commanders to make few exceptions when it comes to fitness, a strategy it also employed during the period after the 1991 Persian Gulf War....Retired Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling said he was floored by what he found in 2009 when he was assigned to overhaul the Army’s training system. Seventy-five percent of civilians who wanted to join the force were ineligible, he said. Obesity was the leading cause.

[treestar]

173. I wonder they don't judge each person on their own fitness

Instead of setting arbitrary limits that even suppose all men are the same. Like short men can't get in the army - skinny men?

These exercises are obsolete. They ought to test each person for being as fit as they can be (outside obvious exclusions for real disabilities).

In times of war, they didn't get picky. Towards the end they use the 12 year old boys. Any reasonably healthy person is able to do it. This is just trying to create elites and use tests that make it harder for women, just because the old tests happened to apply only to men - wonder if any have been dropped as absolute requirements if they are things women can do.

[MADem]

212. They never get picky in wartime. They get 'em, train 'em and send 'em off to sink/swim.

What is happening now is called "force shaping." It is a rather cruel drill, IMO. They only keep the best and brightest, the fittest and the most capable. They have a large pool to choose from and they can pick out the best of the lot. A drawdown IS happening, so they aren't going to keep the "less than optimal" (in their view) servicemembers. It's not uncommon for those who are let go to experience deep feelings of loss and betrayal. If you are a person in the chain of command who is delivering the sad tidings to a uniformed member, it can be a tough thing to do from that end, as well.

Contrast this with Canada, where they are having real trouble maintaining a fit force--they aren't overstaffed, and way too many of their troops are unfit:

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canadian-soldiers-fatter-and-drinking-more-survey-1.599790

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/08/17/canadas-military-forced-to-accept-fatter-less-educated-recruits-as-demographics-change-audit-reveals/

I understand they're even offering weight loss surgery to Canadian forces. http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/09/19/forget-boot-camp-dnd-spends-about-200000-a-year-on-weight-loss-surgeries-for-morbidly-obese-troops/

[treestar]

215. And know what else gets me about all this

The drone issue. Programming drones is the future of the military. That doesn't require this he-man fitness. The generals don't have to stay fit. Or at least, a lot of them don't look it.

The whole bit about the Marines - they are hardly storming the beaches in the 21st century.

And ops like the one to get bin Laden - need they be any fitter than cops? Heck, the concern should apply more strongly to street cops.

[MADem]

235. Eventually, we'll be heavily into robot territory.

There is a need for special forces to be very fit and covert, but they could get away with fatter and lazier folk if they ever get that exoskeleton off the ground. They've got one that turns people into, in essence, a human forklift, capable of moving huge amounts of crap up and down hills.

That said, they want the service personnel to be able to march for fairly long periods should that ever become necessary, and they also want them to "look good" as each and every one is a walking billboard....and they also want to be able to use the PT test to get rid of people when the ranks get too bloated (pardon the expression).

There was no "PT test" back in the old days. It was a post-Vietnam era device that had, as one of its purposes, a goal to be able to pick, choose and refuse, to unload people in an All Volunteer Force--a way of kinda circumventing the promises made to personnel who signed on the dotted line if they didn't look quite good enough. Often, it had nothing to do with ability to do the assigned job.

That said, it's an institutionalized thing, now. THOUSANDS will be shown the door for flunking the PT or height/weight. They'll also kick folks out for not meeting advancement goals. It's hard out there; gonna get harder, too.

I saw USN go through this post-Berlin Wall. Very ugly time back then as well. I had to lower the boom on a few people, it wasn't fun.

[oneshooter]

216. You are refering to the German Wiermach of WW2.

"Towards the end they use the 12 year old boys."

And not the US marine Corp.

[treestar]

217. They'd have to in similar circumstances, though

In WWII when they needed a really big force I bet anyone who could shoulder a rifle was accepted.

And what's the deal of "the Marines?" Why are they any more important than say the Air Force. What beaches are they likely to be storming now?

[Fastcars]

222. Nope.

A LOT of people were rejected. 4F.

No one is saying Marines are more important, just that their "job description" is a lot more likely to find them in hand to hand combat. Or having to pull themselves up over an obstacle using their upper body.

No one is saying women can't be trained to do 3 pull-ups. Just that to be a US Marine it is a necessity that they do so.

[treestar]

156. Exactly. We all know the reason a number of pull-ups is required

THere's probably some exercise that women could win out at, leg lifts, or something, yet those are not the be all and end all measure of strength.

[HappyMe]

13. One of my son's friends wanted to join the Marines.

Before he went to the recuiter he went on an 8 month strength and endurance training program. He said it helped a lot in boot camp.

[The Straight Story]

20. From the article:

But beginning in 2016, women in the Marine Corps and Army will be allowed to serve in infantry, armor and artillery units. And they'll need to be strong enough to climb those mud walls and carry ammunition.

...

He served as a Marine infantry officer in the Balkans and Africa, and now he works for the Service Women's Action Network, a group that advocates for military women. When he was a Marine trainer in North Carolina, he required his female instructors to knock out pullups just like the guys.

"At first, a lot of women weren't able to do it," Jacob says. "They were able to do one, some were able to do two, but what happened was by having that standard and enforcing that standard, it made my Marines, it made the troops go to the gym and train to that standard."

Within six months, all of the women in his company were doing eight to 12 pullups, he says.

...

Seems mostly like a training issue.

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. Correct

In my 20s I did them, regularly. I worked EMS. I had to work those muscles. These days I would not try, not before significant upper body training that is.

[El_Johns]

201. or maybe not.

To find out just how meaningful a fitness measure the pull-up really is, exercise researchers from the University of Dayton found 17 normal-weight women who could not do a single overhand pull-up. Three days a week for three months, the women focused on exercises that would strengthen the biceps and the latissimus dorsi — the large back muscle that is activated during the exercise. They lifted weights and used an incline to practice a modified pull-up, raising themselves up to a bar, over and over, in hopes of strengthening the muscles they would use to perform the real thing. They also focused on aerobic training to lower body fat.

By the end of the training program, the women had increased their upper-body strength by 36 percent and lowered their body fat by 2 percent. But on test day, the researchers were stunned when only 4 of the 17 women succeeded in performing a single pull-up.

So no matter how fit they are, women typically fare worse on pull-up tests. But Vanderburgh notes that some men struggle, too, particularly those who are taller or bigger generally or have long arms.

“Generally speaking, the longer the limb, the more of a disadvantage in being able to do a pull-up. “We’re a combination of levers; that’s how we move,” Vanderburgh said. I look at a volleyball player and wouldn’t expect her to be able to do a pull-up, but I know she’s fit.”

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/10/25/why-women-cant-do-pull-ups/?_r=0


I've never been able to do pull-ups. I used to be able to lift my own weight-plus from a squat, on my back, or using various exercise equipment, but I could never do a pull up. I can walk all day (still do, at my job, which is very physical) --

but I have never been able to do a passable pull up.

[eShirl]

214. that training sounds inadequate for the goal, imho

[NV Whino]

7. What are they doing taking them fresh off the streets without training?

I really thought that was what boot camp was for. Training. Building strength and stamina. If they can't do three pull-ups after boot camp, then they certainly shouldn't be in combat.

[B2G]

14. That is what boot camp is for

It's the training ground that determines where you'll go next.

[dawg]

9. The ability to do at least three pullups is essential ...

if we are engaging the enemy in Greco-Roman wrestling or some other form of unarmed hand-to-hand combat. Otherwise, it might not make sense to judge women based on an arbitrary standard that their bodies are not naturally well-designed to meet.

I actually *can* do three pullups. But I guarantee you; I would be no match in combat for one of our well-trained female marines.

[boston bean]

17. I can't now, but I use to be able too. Just three though.. no more! LOL

I really can't see how a pull up is truly determining factor as to what physical demands soldiers meet on the "battle field".

Maybe it's just been a stupid test all along. However, I am sure that as women try to meet the standards (no matter how I feel about them), more will succeed.

[HappyMe]

31. It's more about the ability to carry a decent amount of weight

for a good distance.

There is a lot of heavy stuff to cart around scrambling around in foothills and mountains in Afghanistan. Depending on what your job is, you don't always get a ride all the way to your position, you have to walk the rest of the way.

Sometimes you have to carry a wounded person away to safety.

Firefighters have to be able to throw somebody over their shoulder and carry them down a ladder.

[dawg]

51. Carrying a heavy weight a set number of meters in a given time would ...

be a much better standard than pullups, IMHO.

[HappyMe]

73. Pullups are a good measure of upper body strength.

Strong legs don't mean anything if your can't carry some weight in your arms.

[dawg]

76. So ...

what do you think is a better test of the ability to carry a large weight in your arms: pullups? Or, carrying a large weight in your arms?

[HappyMe]

77. Pullups mean you can lift your own weight.

Good enough for me.

[dawg]

78. but ...

[HappyMe]

82. What?

I take it you don't like pullups or the Marine's standards. What is it you want? They should change the standards for the female recruits? You're bored?

[loli phabay]

99. the standard should be the same, it should be this is the minimum a marine has to do

not what a female should be able to do or a male. they both need to do the same job so standards should be same. never understood why females got more time for basic fitness test runs or lower strength standards. when the poo hits the fan every trooper should be able to carry a eighty pound load and still fight a battle at the end of a twenty mile hump regardless of their sex.

[HappyMe]

102. Yup.

You have to know before you sign up that it isn't going to be easy.

As I said in another post, one of my son's friends wanted to be a Marine. Eight months before he signed up he did strength and endurance type training at the Y. He said it made boot camp a bunch easier for him.

[Katashi_itto]

103. Exactly. When it comes down to it's survival. A bullet doesn't care what sex you are.

[treestar]

181. But apparently that is easier for smaller people

with shorter arms than longer people, as someone said below.

And it doesn't prove you can lift someone heavier.

So it is beginning to sound a little suspicious as as requirement.

[polly7]

81. Yes they are.

Arms, shoulders, abdominal, pelvic, hands, forearms - all the necessary muscle strength areas for lifting and carrying heavy loads. Leg strength is so important, but without upper core strength as well you're pretty much at a huge disadvantage. I worked with one woman who had little upper body strength and was only able to ever lift the foot end of the stretcher, couldn't switch out the heavy O2 tanks, etc. It was exhausting after a few shifts for anyone working with her as well as stressful, wondering if this would be the shift we'd drop someone. In a battle situation, I don't imagine there's any room for that kind of worry. And yes, women can absolutely train themselves to do pullups and any other strengthening exercise, imo.

[HappyMe]

83. Thank you.

[polly7]

93. You're welcome, HappyMe. nt

[El_Johns]

200. I don't think there's any relation. I've never been able to do even one pull up, but was always

able to carry heavy packs and hike long distances.

I could lift my own weight when I was younger, but I couldn't do a pull up.

[LionsTigersRedWings]

126. A pull-up will determine if you can pull yourself up.

[SQUEE]

29. or to haul yourself and gear up a mountainside, climb a barricade,

extract your wounded team mate and his gear, while wearing yours and trying to throw suppresive fire.

I have served as both a straight leg and a mortar maggot, upper body strength is a must, not pretty, cut muscles, brute tendon ripping strength.. it's a hard job, and a hard life. If a female can pass the male PT standards and carry her weight, she is welcome to fight beside me, if she can't she is gonna get herself, me or one of my mates killed, and despite what many need to believe about our military, grunts serve one purpose and one only, to kill the other guy, to close with and destroy the enemy and hold the line of battle. Anything that takes away from that ability should be a No-Go at this station.

One standard and one only for combat arms, this is fair, right and prudent.


http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4864206313947960&pid=1.7

[dawg]

32. You get to use your legs in all those things.

And from what I have experienced, women tend to have pretty good leg strength.

I guess what I'm saying is that they should be measured based on criteria that more closely match the obstacles they might face on the battlefield. IMHO, pullups are a poor barometer of the abilities they will require.

[SQUEE]

34. Everyone gets to carry the "pig"... and be prepared to use it.

In an infantry squad, everyone will rotate through being a machine gunner,the current LMG for the US Army is the M240B, 27lbs, empty, now add a belt of ammo, pushing upwards of 30 lbs.. upper arm strength is a must. We dig a foxhole everynight in the field, improved fighting positions, sand bagging, all use the arms back and shoulders. there has to be an universal, and equal test that can be used as a general test of upper body strength, the USMC has settled on the pullup.

[dawg]

38. So, make "carrying the pig" the standard.

That would make tons more sense than basing it on pullups.

[HockeyMom]

182. I weigh 100 lbs.

You are very correct that you use you LEGS not just your arms to lift. I was able to lift 50 lb. children (multiple times a day) in and out of wheelchairs, on and off cots, carry them, etc.. There is a technique to it. You NEVER lift using your back. BTW, I did this until I was 62 years old.

[Glassunion]

33. It isn't an arbitrary standard

It is a fitness standard for all Marines. A pull up is a test of strength, used to gauge a person's ability. If that individual cannot do 3 pull ups, how well would they be able to pull a wounded Marine out of a ditch, or lug an ammo can in full gear, or load an artillery shell?

If their bodies are not (as you say) well-designed to meet that standard, then those who cannot meet that standard should not be serving in combat roles.

[dawg]

37. A pullup is a measure of pulling up your body weight using only your arm strength.

Nothing requires that but a pullup.

All those other combat related tasks require a combination of arm strength, core strength, abs, back muscles, and leg strength. What I can do with my upper body strength, a healthy woman can also accomplish by bracing herself and using a somewhat different set of muscles.

I agree that all combat soldiers must have sufficient physical strength to do the job. But the pullup isn't a very good way of measuring combat readiness. It's like basing university admissions on the ability to do crossword puzzles.

[Glassunion]

45. A pull up is an excellent measure of upper body strength.

And yes it is an accurate measure of those other tasks. I never said that it is a way of measuring combat readiness. I said that it is a measure of fitness (which is only a part of combat readiness). Pull-ups are only a part of the overall fitness measure.

If you cannot pull yourself up, how can you pull another Marine up?
If you cannot pull yourself up, how well would you get yourself over a wall or fence in combat?
If you cannot pull yourself up, how long could you carry an ammo can?
If you cannot pull yourself up, how well could you pick up an artillery shell?

[dawg]

49. Um, by bracing yourself and using your legs and torso.

That's how you could do all those things.

A pullup is a very specific task. It's a little arbitrary to be a make or break kind of thing. That's just my opinion, though. YMMV.

[Blanket Statements]

53. Uhhhh no

[Glassunion]

85. No, it is not a very specific task.

Below, every muscle in gray and blue is what your body uses to complete a pronated (overhand) pull up.

This is hardly a small and specific group of muscles. If you have a weak back, arms, shoulders, etc... You will not be able to complete a pull up.

Let's break down those small tasks that I mentioned.
How can you pull another Marine up? - Your back is part of your torso, and your arms would be needed to pick someone up. You cannot pick up another human being without using your forearm, biceps, shoulders and back.
How well would you get yourself over a wall or fence in combat? - Please explain how one would pull themselves up over a wall without using the pull up muscles?
How long could you carry an ammo can? - Those same shoulder, arm and forearm muscles are used to carry a can of ammo. If you are not strong enough to do three pull-ups, how long could you carry a can of ammo?
How well could you pick up an artillery shell? - Yes, it is wise to lift with your legs, but if you have weak arms, how well could you hang onto an artillery shell? You're hanging onto it with your arms, back and shoulders.

[Blanket Statements]

46. Ummm, have you ever done a pull up? It's not just your arms that you're using

core, shoulders, back, forearms, biceps are all used in the completion of a pull up.

Pull ups are one of the best measures of overall upper body strength

[dawg]

62. Yes. I can do pullups.

I have always been a pretty strong guy. Stronger than average, I would guess (even though I don't look it).

I have always been able to carry heavy objects, climb trees and obstacles, and perform all sorts of feats of strength around the Festivus pole.

But, a few years ago, I realized I could not do a decent pullup. (Or, at least couldn't do more than one.)

Despite being a strong guy capable of all the strong guy stuff I needed to do in the real world, that particular muscle group was not well conditioned (and my body weight was a little too high).

So I bought a pullup bar and got to work! Why? I don't know - middle-aged point of pride maybe?

So now I can do at least three good pullups - sometimes as many as five. I could probably make it look like I could do more than that if I did them underhanded and allowed myself to "cheat" a little.

But in all the "essential" manly tasks of my life, I don't feel any stronger. I'm just better at pulling myself up.

So, while I think it's a great exercise, and I do feel a little more definition in my chest and probably my back as well, I don't think it is the end-all and be-all of measuring combat readiness. I think a better measurement could be found - one that would, perhaps, be fairer to women for whom this exercise might be a particularly difficult stumbling block. That is all.

[Blanket Statements]

67. Men who can't do pull ups don't get special consideration

why should women?

[dawg]

71. I didn't say they should.

I said that there should be a better measure of readiness than pullups. Like carrying a heavy weight a set number of meters within a set amount of time.

Whatever the minimum standard is, it should be applied equally to all.

I sure hope they don't switch it from pullups to doing the splits though. (Because I will *not* be training myself to do that as a middle aged point of pride.)

[frylock]

91. this is only one of several tests that measure the recruit's readiness

[Soundman]

88. You might want to ask the thousands

Of Vietnam vets who lost a leg to a mine how important upper body strength is. Trying to get back on a boat or raft would be a chore as well. You never know when your legs may become useless in combat.

[frylock]

89. how many pullups can you do?

[dawg]

90. About 5.

And the notion that I would be considered more combat ready than a young woman who has just completed basic training is preposterous.

[frylock]

96. there are many other tests besides doing pullups..

and the reason I ask how many you can do is because you seem to believe that only arm strength is required to complete a pullup. in any case, what other criteria would you have the marines shitcan to ensure that everyone is a winner?

[dawg]

100. I don't want to make everyone a winner. I want to make sure women aren't blocked by ...

standards that are unnecessarily arbitrary. Neither of us has all the facts. But we do know one thing: half our female marine recruits are failing this particular test *after* going through basic training. Either there is a problem with the recruits, a problem with the training, or a problem with the test.

My concern is that pullups may be a uniquely difficult exercise for women, and therefore not a particularly accurate measure of their actual abilities. Studies need to be done, and it sounds like that is exactly what is happening. There may be a more accurate way of measuring the strengths and abilities actually needed for the job.

It's important for soldiers to be flexible, too. But if we were making the splits a determining factor, the women would be smoking the men on that one.

Personally, I think it would be interesting to see what standards the Israeli military uses. They have much more experience than us on such matters.

Bottom line, standards should be applied equally and no one who is physically incapable should be put into a combat position. But it never hurts to re-evaluate the standards that are being used in order to make sure they are actually measuring the essential skills and abilities needed for the position.

[nadinbrzezinski]

223. Forget the IDF. The Marines, hell all the services,

Should have a good talk with wild land fire fighters, especially hot shot crews. It is mostly the same skill set as far as field work, including the pull ups. Ok one set carries a weapon, the other hand tools and saws. The packs are just as heavy. Women serve as hot shots reguraly. What are they doing that the military is missing?

I was told this by a former Navy Seal who retired from the Navy, so he is a tad old to keep up with the kids, and it is becoming increasingly hard. It is a young person's game, his words not mine. These days he works as a hot shot in the summer, a regular fire fighter the rest of the year. He finds the hot shot pt just as grueling as his SEAL pt. the gals keep up thank you very much.

IMHO it is a matter of training. We used to have military PRT standards, most of my women made it. We asked fire fighter academies what they did. It is subtle changes in the routines you do during PT that actually develop women's upper body strength. Everybody does it, and it helps women. One exercise, which sucks, is to pull yourself only with your arms up a monkey bar, that happens to be on the ground, or anything else suitable to simulate that. Think hard, what do firefighting academies have in large numbers? Ladders. You start to increase the angle, no cheating with legs, and sooner than later that upper body starts to build. By the time you get to the pull up bar you are more than half way there. You also have people walk and run with donuts, that is hose, over their heads. Those suckers are heavy, and a few other tricks. What do marines have in spades? Rucksacks.

Also we used to use rappel lines and prusick knots, to pull ourselves up 10 then 20 all the way to 50 feet and longer. This is a skill applicable to rescue, but also the military. Mind you I could not do that today.

[treestar]

178. How is it being a winner?

To be in the military?

Why limit it to just the physically strongest when that matters less and less as time goes on?

In the 18th century, anyone who could shoot a target was more valuable than someone who couldn't, regardless of number of pull-ups of which they were capable.

The standards are just used to attempt to tell us women aren't strong enough - the standards happen to require what men are better at.

And anyone can be in the military in a pinch. If you're losing, you bring out the old men.

[NM_Birder]

276. Yes,

Fitness training in the military is designed to tell you women that you are not strong enough, and recruitment methods of the 18th Century are still a measure we should use for todays modern battlefield.

[jberryhill]

151. Lifetime, or in one go?

[Glassunion]

155. Lol!

[joe_sixpack]

167. The military has a lot of experience

And accomplished much research in determining what tests accurately measure the traits that are needed for the roles that are bring filled. As long as the standards are applied fairly to both sexes, I see no problem.

[bluesbassman]

39. Good post. It's as simple as that.

Any other argument on this issue is skirting the basic necessities if a ground combat soldier regardless of gender.

[Bradical79]

41. Why 3 and not 2?

Or 4?

[Glassunion]

61. Why not 20?

The Marine Corps has been using this particular measure for (IIRC) about 40 years.

The Marine pull-up, is what you would call a dead-hang pull up. That is where you grab the bar with an overhand grip, and fully extend your arms and hang. You would then pull yourself all the way up (without kicking) until your chin clears the bar. You would then lower yourself back to your starting position and repeat the process.

To me, three would be a decent measure of not only strength, but endurance of the muscles as well. The initial pull up, would get your heart rate up, and the vascular systems in your arms to swell to deliver more blood and energy. By the end of the second, if you had poor endurance, your muscles would have breezed through your ATP stores, lactic acid would build up (that burning feeling), and the muscle could fail before you completed the 3rd.

[Bradical79]

98. Good explanation

That's what I was curious about, whether there was a logic behind the number or if that was just an arbitrary standard.

[NoOneMan]

66. Its also a mental conditioning standard

If you are not dedicated to training your body to do 3 lousy pullups during the course of boot camp, there are bigger issues at hand here.

[nadinbrzezinski]

55. Or to go over obstacles

or to drag your sorry ass out of harms way.

It is not just about greco roman fighting, or hand to hand combat.

It has clear reasons for it, but it does as well in Fire Fighting, EMS and Police Work, all three have many more women who are not failing. So I gotta ask what are the Marines doing wrong in training these women?

[NuclearDem]

15. That really needs to be broken down by MOS.

Not all Marines are infantry or MPs.

[NaturalHigh]

22. Well, usually basic physical requirements apply to all recruits.

Granted, I was in the Air Force, not the Marines, but we all had to complete a basic physical regimen to graduate basic training.

[NuclearDem]

25. I know, I was too.

But there are some specialties that need better physical performance than others. 1A8s like myself didn't really need the peak physical conditioning the Combat Controllers do.

[NaturalHigh]

42. Not denying that...

I would imagine some of the fields have even more stringent physical requirements. I'm just saying that they probably all have to meet the basic requirements, which I can understand.

[Glassunion]

30. A bit of a conundrum

In 2016, women in the Army and Marine Corps will be allowed to serve in infantry, armor and artillery units. So if 55% of the female recruits cannot meet the physical standards of the job, I don't think it would be fair to relegate such a disproportionate number of females to non-combat roles.

[Blanket Statements]

48. All Marines are Infantry

The fact that they may have done other jobs doesn't change that

[NuclearDem]

60. No. Every Marine is a rifleman, not an 0300.

Big difference between the two. Every Marine goes through MCT, and 0300s go through additional training on top of that.

[Blanket Statements]

65. Correct

But a rifleman is the basic skill of the infantry

[NuclearDem]

70. But simply being trained as a rifleman doesn't equip a Marine for a direct combat specialty.

If the 0300s need temporary support, any Marine can pick up a rifle and fight, but cooks and SIGINT operators aren't going to be going door-to-door.

[Daninmo]

68. Correction

"Not all Marines are infantry or MPs. "

Actually all male Marines are basic riflemen first, then they are assigned addition MOS training after boot camp.

[NuclearDem]

69. Yeah, precisely. 0300s are trained for direct combat though.

All the other noncombat roles are trained as riflemen if the 0300s need support.

[Fastcars]

225. Actually, they are.

http://www.duffelblog.com/2012/10/every-marine-a-rifleman-under-new-policy-all-marines-to-receive-infantry-mos/

[Duckhunter935]

227. you do know that is satire, right?

[etherealtruth]

43. What jobs/ roles is this level of upper body stregnth necesssary?

I have no knowledge of the weight of modern arms or what exactly requires vs upper body strength vs endurance ... which roles is this necessary and which is it not?


"Lance Cpl. Ally Beiswanger explained that the pullup test had been put off until sometime next year, to gather more data and "ensure all female Marines are given the best opportunity to succeed."

It would be horrendous for this branch of the military to lose out on the talents and skills of women solely based on this requirement

[NaturalHigh]

44. Probably carrying packs, climbing obstacles, etc...

Quite a bit of upper-body strength is required just to get through basic training.

[etherealtruth]

54. I think the women were "getting through" basic training except for the pull ups

I am looking for the the tasks requiring the increased upper body strength (i don't doubt there are some). I am kinda dubious about packs ... I want to know what specific "job" tasks and job titles are contingent on this ability?


I personally can't fathom wanting to join the military, but I understand there are plenty of folk that want to

[NaturalHigh]

59. All branches update their physical requirements every few years...

not sure exactly why the pullup requirement was put into place.

[Blanket Statements]

50. There's always the Navy

The Marines are special and should remain be the standard for which all others strive to reach

[etherealtruth]

56. I have a (pseudo) neice that has made a career of the Navy

... her husband tried but was not successful at that (don't know why/ don't need to)

[MattBaggins]

116. As a former cav trooper

Fuck your marines are special and the standard all others strive to reach.

Fuck the Marines. Cav troopers are better... and at least 5 times smarter.

[Blanket Statements]

143. You know as well as I do, their basic training is the

Most demanding of the branches

[Glassunion]

95. This article is based on the fact that in 2016, women will be able to be in

combat roles.

Basic training today, does not require that females complete the pull-up requirement. IIRC they have to perform a 15 second hang on the bar. However, infantry training has the requirement.

So, if women wish to enroll in a combat function, there will be this level of upper body strength required.

Using the current results, women would still gain. Currently the Marines consist of 7%+/- females. Currently 0% of which are in combat roles. 45% of female Marines today would qualify for roles that there currently is 0% female enrollment.

[Egalitarian Thug]

185. Any and all that might even possibly encounter combat. Contrary to the wishes of the

101st keyboard commandos, the capacity to actually get out of the chair is a nonnegotiable capability for any position in any armed force.

[etherealtruth]

186. good to know

Your rude post convinced me ...intelligence, skill, honor and any other number positive attributes are not nearly as important as the ability to do three pull ups ... a highly skilled marks"man" can't do his job if he can't do three pullups.

I wonder why the military has different physical fitness requirements contingent on age?

[Egalitarian Thug]

187. I'm happy to enlighten you, you're very welcomed.

Despite the fantasies running around your patriotic fevered brain, the military has one purpose, to smash, kill, and destroy. To confront a foe and to destroy them utterly, and that is still a physical activity.

I'm not a fan of the military by any means, I was subjected to a lifetime of it and have seen the beast from the inside. I also think there is something wrong with this story as even the Coast Guard requires (required?) minimal physical fitness to serve.

Three pull-ups? I'm fat, middle aged, and at least a decade away from fit, and I can do three pull-ups. Are you trying to tell me that I am an acceptable recruit for the U.S.Marine Corps?


Edited to add that I did not intent to disparage the Coast Guard, you and the National Guard are the only branches we actually need, IMO.

[etherealtruth]

188. Your rude responses hardly merit anything more than a oneline reply.

[Egalitarian Thug]

195. I don't think you have any reply at all on this issue. You're obviously far more concerned

with your delicate sensibilities than whether or not this article is at all relevant or true. Please feel free to retreat to you inoffensive safety zone, the rest of us are in this for real.

[LWolf]

47. I've never been able to do a single pull-up.

Even at my peak.

I school, I could excel at all the "presidential physical fitness" events but that one, in which I failed miserably.

At the age of 53, I can still split, haul and stack wood, move and stack 100 lb bales of hay, haul bags of feed, hoist 50 lb saddles onto a horse (I could do THAT when I was 10) and many other activities requiring strength.

I can't do a pull-up. I guess it's a good thing I've never been interested in soldiering.

[Silent3]

57. I just managed one pull up last week. One and only one. :)

I've lost a lot of weight since last year, and I'm in pretty good overall shape now, especially for a 51 year-old male (I can ascend a local mountain at twice the speed of most of the twenty-somethings I pass on the way), but upper body strength and abs are still things I need to work on. Push ups are still a lot more work than they should be.

[LWolf]

74. Pushups were always hard, but I could do them.

I can still do a couple, lol.

Sit-ups? I used to be able to do them all day long. These days I can do a few, carefully. One of the consequences of doing heavy work with not much in the way of arm strength is that I've been using my back since childhood to take up the slack, and at 53 it tells me to "back off."

The problem with age is that we shouldn't bend over to lift, but the knees don't work well anymore either, so there are no longer ANY deep knee bends, and all lifting involves bending.

Still, somehow the work manages to get done, one way or another.

[loli phabay]

52. train hard, fight easy.

[NoOneMan]

63. Women should have equal access to getting blown away in the elites' resource wars

[Daninmo]

72. I am a Marine

Once a Marine, always a Marine.

But good grief, why can't some people realize men and women are physically different? I don't just mean that one has the obvious ability to give birth either.

I think it is a well established fact that men in general are stronger than women. How many women can compete with the men in professional sports on an equal level?

The physical requirements are there for a reason. Even a supply MOS may require heavy lifting.

What is next, are they going to require 18 year women to register with selective service just like 18 year men are required to do?

[MattBaggins]

118. "are they going to require 18 year women to register with selective service"

Hopefully

[treestar]

175. Not true. Women are stronger in some things

You just don't see them because it's always presumed that a man's strength is better.

Why not require women to go into the Service in the same terms, if it's going to be required. Women have been serving for decades now. No one is going to back off on that.

[nadinbrzezinski]

197. They should have, a while ago

[TwilightGardener]

84. I couldn't do a pull-up even as a fairly active teenager.

Our gym teachers tested how well we could hang with our chin over the bar--I think I lasted about three seconds, LOL. Most women just don't have the sort of leverage and muscle to compete with men in terms of upper body strength. For the few that can, let 'em into combat, if that's what they want to do.

[NaturalHigh]

112. Strangely, that was what I could do really well.

Not sure why...plenty of other people were stronger than me but couldn't do pullups to save their lives.

[jmowreader]

92. Pull-ups are how the Marines thin the herd

They know most people can't do them. Perhaps increasing the pullup standard is how they plan to kick all the women out of the Corps.

[Nine]

94. I don't understand what the controversy is here.

I'll take as a given that doing three pull-ups is relevant to combat duties. Obviously women can and have reached that level. That they're not getting a high enough success rate right now can be attributed to many possible things: maybe the female recruits were less fit to begin with and need time to catch up, maybe they implemented the change on too tight of a timetable, maybe they aren't giving recruits enough time to train on this task. To say that women simply can't do it and will never be able do it is just nuts. It's not like the Marines are waiving the standards; they're just shifting the deadline. This is just an excuse for some anti-women in the military bonehead to start spouting off.

[CreekDog]

97. another post in a long pursuit of trying to portray women badly

to portray whites as victims of other races...

to portray smokers as victims of society.

to portray gun owners as a beleaguered and victimized minority.


any one of these things occasionally would just be an opinion to consider.

but all of them together indicate a pursuit ungrounded in reality.

[trumad]

105. Yep.......

[The Straight Story]

113. If I wanted to spend my time portraying some group badly I would join HOF

But I prefer to post things about all humans - even people from different countries!

The world of DU does not revolve about a choice few. Neither do my posts.

But when someone is sure every man, errr everyone, is out to get them than that is all they will see.

[trumad]

127. Bull Shit

You're not as clever as you think.

[CreekDog]

138. oh he might be, but not for that reason.

[CreekDog]

132. If you posted there like here, you wouldn't last in any feminist group

you'd quickly be blocked.

[msanthrope]

228. 2-4 to keep your post. nt

[NuclearDem]

248. Oh give me a break

In just about every thread about women recently you've gone on some form of rant about how you're "not even allowed to look at women anymore" and acted like the feminists were all out to get you.

[MattBaggins]

119. ding ding ding

Sort of an MO isn't it?

[JI7]

170. yup

now when i read certain subject lines i usually am good at guessing who posted it .

[Egalitarian Thug]

189. Good point. I almost stayed out of this because of the point you make. n/t

[hughee99]

224. I wonder why NPR hates women so much. n/t

[CreekDog]

239. NPR doesn't hate women. If they did, there would be a discernable pattern

of stories and other indications of that.

but thanks for trying to be clever.

[hughee99]

241. I'm sorry, I thought this was another post in a long pursuit

of trying to portray woman badly, but the OP is just a posting of an NPR news story. Do you think NPR's story is slanted or unfair in some way? Since the subject of women in combat has been one discussed on the DU at some length, shouldn't any obstacles to making this a reality be appropriate for discussion as well?

[A Little Weird]

101. I don't think they need to change the requirement, just adapt the training.

I can remember way back in elementary school the gym teacher wouldn't even let the girls try pull ups. Hey said they were not for girls. He had some alternative test to do instead. They weren't allowed to do "boy pushups" either, there was a modified push up. And I think they had to do a different rope-climbing exercise too. So women go their whole lives with this message that they can't do certain things. It's bound to get internalized. (Actually I think there should be more strength training and general fitness activities for all kids but that's another issue.)

Men generally do have a natural upper body strength advantage, but obviously there are women who can do pull-ups and push-ups. I think it's just a matter of training. The Marines developed most of their boot camp training regimens with men in mind. I have no doubt that they will be able to figure out a way to adapt their training program to get the women up to speed on the pull-up.

[cthulu2016]

110. Men would benefit as much or more from the same training

I am a man with a weak upper-body. Good legs, but can't do a pull-up or real push-up.

I could easily train up to being able to do three pull-ups, and I am more likely than most women to be trainable to do three pull-ups.

So strength training would not diminish the numerical disparity.

[A Little Weird]

121. It would help men too, which is great

But I think more men start off being ok with pull-ups so I still think it still would reduce the disparity.

I think the pull-up test is achievable by both genders, but after reading some of the posts up-thread, I kind of agree that there are probably better ways of testing the needed skills. If a marine needs to be able to carry a man x number of yards, then actually test that. Same with climbing walls, lifting gear, etc. It seems it would make more sense to measure that directly than through the pull-up test.

But anyway, I guess the point I wanted to make was that men and women are treated differently from early childhood and at least part of the problem is carried over from that. They begin basic training at different levels. There are physical differences between men and women and I think men as a group will probably always have an advantage over women as a group when it comes to upper body strength exercises, but I think most young women (and men) could get to 3 pull-ups with proper training. I would really love to see physical education with both strength and other training incorporated into the school day for all k-12 kids. I think it would develop life-long healthy habits.

[cap]

114. I have a few questions...

1. Are women being prepared for three pull-ups in the right way? Remember, men get introduced to doing pull-ups in their childhood/or teens. So they get a lot of years practice before they try to join the Marine Corps. Do our High School athletic programs where they exist train women properly?

2. If pull-up training for women is deferred until they reach the Marine Corp, has anyone studied how long it will take the average female recruit to learn to do three pull-ups. I could do three pull-ups in college but it took me about three years (maybe I am a slow learner). First, I hung onto a bar for a minute with my arms fully extended. Then, I took a chair and hung from a bar with my arms flexed for a minute. Finally, I started doing pull-ups. I was doing a lot of upper body work with the weights. It can be done. So are women being trained correctly? Do women need to go through an extended program to be able to enter into ground combat safely?

3. Are weapons, etc being sized correctly? Do we need light weight weaponry? There's a lot of cool light weight nano materials on the market. Ask the same question for the ruck sacks. Hikers in extreme conditions go for light weight gear whenever possible. If you are hauling 70-80 lbs on your back, man or woman, you are not able to give chase on foot. What is the best weight/Mobility/capability tradeoff for man or woman?

4. Are there techniques that need to be taught to show anyone without great upper body strength to be able to get up and over a wall or haul wounded off the battlefield? If you still have your rucksack with a sleeping bag, you can always drag someone. Little men have dragged big men. You can use your feet to kick at a wall to get up and over with a running start. Leverage is a girl's best friend. I am sure it was a cavewoman who invented tools. Use your brain to get around something.

5. Hand to hand combat. No brainer. Martial Arts training helps.

[Glassunion]

123. I think I can help with a few answers

1. I cannot answer.

2. 1 month of physical training for an hour a day 5 days a week for someone who is reasonably in shape. This could be easily done in basic training.

3. Yes. Modern Weapons are very light and consist of lightweight composite materials. From WWII to the Vietnam war the Marines issues and used a rifle that weighed in at almost 12lbs. Currently a Marine's rifle weighs about 8lbs. They have adjustable features so that someone at 5 feet tall is just as comfortable as someone who is 6 feet. As for weight, there is not a lot one can do. The military has researched and developed light materials for packs, as well as working in stress re-leaving ergonomics. The full pack today rests the weight on the hips and legs and only stabilizes with the shoulders. Most modern backpacks you see in adventure stores are based on similar research. You cannot get away from the total weight however. An Infantry Marine in particular needs to carry everything they need with them. This would encompass (depending on the assignment): Water, food, Comm gear, Med kits, Ammo, general survival gear, change of socks, nav gear, batteries, flash lights, optics/ NV, camp supplies, water purification, etc... You cannot tradeoff on any of these items.

4. Sort of... There is a way for a small person to pick up a larger person and carry them, however, if they are totally unresponsive, brute strength will be needed. This is part of existing training. As for getting over walls, it would all depend. How high is the wall? Yes, an 8 foot wall could be easy to hop up on, however at 10 or more feet you may need to pull yourself up. Kicking may not always work in situations where your feet are wet and slippery.

5. Exactly. Size and strength can be exploited. Hand to hand is trained in basic.

[cap]

144. a few more thoughts

I think it would take much longer than 1 month of training to get women to do pull-ups. Not everyone who enters the service is in shape. If pull ups were taught in women's gym classes like they are in men's, maybe 1 month of training.

I think the weight that troops are carrying around has got to get to weight much less. I've seen some stuff that they are working on in the military labs to get the weight to be less. Seriously, carrying around 80 lbs! Everyone is better off if you can cut the weight. Change the standard to fit the average woman and the average man will be better off.

If someone is totally unresponsive, brute strength is still not necessary. Ask nurses. They are trained to handle unresponsive lumps. Women will not haul a body around the same way a man does; but they can still move it.

As far as getting up a 10 foot wall, not all men are tall enough to jump and pull themselves over a wall. Slippery conditions make hand holds tough, too.

[Glassunion]

147. We are talking Marines

Everyone entering the Marines has to be in decent shape. They all must pass the IST (initial strength test). So currently a female must be able to perform a flexed-arm hang for 15 seconds. If she can do that, she can be doing 8 or more pull-ups in a month's time if properly trained.

I agree that the stuff should weigh less. However, currently, everything in a Marine's pack serves a purpose and cannot be discarded.

I understand about the walls. I've done more than I care to count. A flying leap will get you to the top, but you need to pull yourself over.

Personally, I do not think that this requirement will be an issue in the future. I feel that the training will be adjusted, and the women will meet and far exceed the minimum requirements.

[nadinbrzezinski]

191. I also think it is a training issue

women do fire fighting with no issue (upper body strength) and EMS (Ditto). I used to train EMS, and due to specific circumstances it included Physical Requirements based on military standards. I know that for me I could do the pull ups, ten of them, and upwards of 50 pushups in my 20s, but it took quite a bit of specialized upper body training, geared for women. For the record, my nieces loved to ride the horsey as I did the pushup with a two year old on top.

When we designed the program, we talked to a local fire academy that had to adapt training. Methinks the USMC needs to do the same.

Yes, some things are specific to the military, but initial training for upper body strength for people who don't have it, has to be specifically modified since most women do not do this early on. We got some tips, and they worked.

This year I got to talk to a hot shot, who used to be a SEAL. In his opinion women in combat don't scare him. So his packs as a FF are just as heavy, and instead of an M-16 or M-4 he carries heavy tools. After that, same kind of training. He also said that it will take that specialized training that fire academies have already figured out to get the women who can hack it, ready for the force.

Oh and Smoke Jumpers gave the 82 Airborne all the tips they needed for training at the beginning of the unit in WW II, that would not be new.

[Egalitarian Thug]

120. Do they, like, tie a couple hundred pounds to their feet or something?

I simply can't believe this is true. I know it's been quite some time since I've met any fresh Marines, but physically fit was always a universal descriptor.

Even accounting for the Corps' obvious and utter failure to properly train these women, how does the individual Marine tolerate being that weak and calling yourself a U.S. Marine?

Something’s not right with this story.

[Sweet Lou]

162. Sign of the times

Check out the children we are breeding today. When i was born my brother was leaving for his first tour in Vietnam. My father fought in the pacific in WWll. All my friends thought my parents were my grandparents. I was raised hard went to serve in a Ranger battallion, Pathfinder team, LRSU units and in combat. We have some damn fine kids to day but they are out numbered by the ones that are not so fine.

[Egalitarian Thug]

192. Your point is valid for sure, I'm constantly surprised at how unfit kids are today.

But the idea that the Corps can't whip a recruit into shape during basic is just crazy. The U.S. Marine Corps is literally the culmination of over 6,000 years of military training techniques and study. They are one of the world's most terrifyingly effective fighting forces, period. The very idea this story presents is either complete bullshit, or a sign that we are completely and totally FUBAR.

[Gravitycollapse]

252. Oh, bullshit. All of the golden age rhetoric is infuriating.

Even the obesity problem is overblown.

[LionsTigersRedWings]

131. If they can't perform 3 pull-ups then you can't see combat.

we don't need to make excuses.


Those are the standards, should we just drop them if some people can't make it? nope.

[Nikia]

136. Men have physical and generally an experience advantage as well

The physical advantage is mechanical since men's and women's bodies are shaped differently. Men can also build muscle faster through training because of testosterone, which is some athletes requiring superior strength use it to cheat.
Growing up, boys are also encouraged to do more activities that increase upper body strength including pull ups.
To meet the pull up requirements, female recruits may need to do significantly more of this particular strength training to achieve this.
There may also be another appropriate test that measures skills necessary for the job where there is less disparity between fit males and females.
I can do three pull ups now. I have been doing them on my son's play set every time we go out to play, originally only being able to do one last year. Despite this, it hasn't given me the ability to lift more weight or really do anything that I normally do other than pull ups. It is true that I don't do much climbing or other activities that may rely more on these particular muscles though.

[tblue37]

137. On average men have 70% greater upper body strength than women.

Maintain standards, but those women who meet them should not have any doors blocked, should not be excluded from any opportunities.

Where physical strength is not required to perform a job, it should not be included as a requirement. If strength is necessary for the job, then allow only women who can meet the standard to have the job.

BUT DO NOT use the fact that far fewer women than men are able to meet the standard as an excuse for discriminating against those who can merely because they happen to be of the same sex as those who typically cannot.

[davidn3600]

141. If someone can't do 3 pull-ups, then they don't belong in combat...male or female

I mean that's pretty simple strength training.

A female gymnast can do 10-15+ of those things without a sweat.

[treestar]

159. Yet those gymnasts could not carry another soldier

which is, interestingly, the reason given why these pull-ups are required.

[Egalitarian Thug]

193. How much would you like to bet on that? n/t

[actslikeacarrot]

142. Not really a big deal...

...here is my reasoning.

Women Marines have trained for the flex arm hang for years. It may seem to be splitting hairs, but it really is a different pt event than pullups. Trust me I have done both just to see if I could. I suspect that women who can do the three pullups or more will be able to enter the infantry in 2016 and maybe in ten years it will be made a standard across the board.

It is somewhat unfair to expect every women to be able to switch from the flex arm hang to pullups in such a short amount of time.

[taught_me_patience]

145. Pullups are a great test of strength to weight ratio

women are at a great disadvantage because they tend to carry more fat and water than males and have less upper body strength. With some weight training, most women will shed some weight, gain strength and be able to do three pullups.

[Glassunion]

146. Point of reference for everyone.

Here are the current semi-annual fitness standards for the Marines

Body fat % - Males

AGE 17-26: 18%
AGE 27-39: 19%
AGE 40-45: 20%
AGE 46+ :21%

Body fat % - Females

AGE 17-26: 26%
AGE 27-39: 27%
AGE 40-45: 28%
AGE 46+: 29%

Minimum Fitness Requirments for Each PFT Event - Males

Age 17-26 / Pull-Ups 3 / Crunches 50 / 3-Mile Run 28:00
Age 27-39 / Pull-Ups 3 / Crunches 45 / 3-Mile Run 29:00
Age 40-45 / Pull-Ups 3 / Crunches 45 / 3-Mile Run 30:00
Age 46+ / Pull-Ups 3 / Crunches 40 / 3-Mile Run 33:00

Minimum Fitness Requirments for Each PFT Event - Females

Age 17-26 / Flexed Arm Hang 15 Seconds / Crunches 50 / 3-Mile Run 31:00
Age 27-39 / Flexed Arm Hang 15 Seconds / Crunches 45 / 3-Mile Run 32:00
Age 40-45 / Flexed Arm Hang 15 Seconds / Crunches 45 / 3-Mile Run 33:00
Age 46+ / Flexed Arm Hang 15 Seconds / Crunches 40 / 3-Mile Run 36:00

The above standards are the current minimum. There are three classification scores that one could attain based on scoring points from the above PFT Events. There are a total of 300 points that one could accumulate. For example - for 1st Class, one would need to attain 225 for the first age group, 200 for the second, 175 for the third and 150 for the last. Each PFT event has a total of 100 points.

Points are awarded as follows
Males - Pull-Ups

3 = 15 points
4 = 20 points, etc... Up to 20 pull-ups for 100 points.

Females - Flexed arm hang (in seconds)

15 = 15 points
16 = 16 points... Up to 40 seconds = 40 points, then
41 = 42 points
42 = 44 points
43 = 46 points... Up to 70 seconds = 100 points

Crunches - Identical for both sexes.

2 minute time limit, 1 point for every crunch starting from the age group minimum.

3-Mile Run - Males
Similar to crunches where points start after reaching the age group minimum.

33:00 = 10 points
22:50 = 11 points
22:40 = 12 points... Down to 18:00 = 100 points

3-Mile Run - Females
Similar to crunches where points start after reaching the age group minimum.

36:00 = 10 points
35:50 = 11 points
35:40 = 12 points... down to 21:00 = 100 points

If the women are having no issue meeting the same crunch and running PFT events, and pull ups are the only hang up. I'd say that perhaps they should look into what physical conditioning they do in basic.

[hrmjustin]

148. I can not even do one but I am not trying to be a marine.

I don't think 3 pullups is too much to ask of recruits.

[madville]

149. The new line again in the military

is one PT test for both genders. When I was active duty females were expected to perform at about 70-80% of the normal male standards depending on the exercise with modifications to make some tasks easier.

I witnessed a couple of study groups over the years with the goal of developing one standard. The task almost all females had a major problem with was the pull up. 1 or 2 for a female was considered exceptional since most were unable to do any.

It's simply not possible to have one set of standards that are equally difficult to males and females. It's either too easy for the males or too difficult for the females, there really is no middle ground.

[hack89]

150. How about one test for combat arms and one for non-combat jobs?

you meet the standard you can fill a combat job.

[NaturalHigh]

152. That's not necessarily feasible...

since all male Marines are expected to be trained for combat.

[freeplessinseattle]

163. "Why Women Can't Do Pull Ups" from NYT Oct. 2012:

"...and other research has shown that performing a pull-up requires more than simple upper-body strength.

Men and women who can do them tend to have a combination of strength, low body fat and shorter stature. During training, because women have lower levels of testosterone, they typically develop less muscle than men, Vanderburgh explained. In addition, they can’t lose as much fat. Men can conceivably get to 4 percent body fat; women typically bottom out at more than 10 percent.

So no matter how fit they are, women typically fare worse on pull-up tests. But Vanderburgh notes that some men struggle, too, particularly those who are taller or bigger generally or have long arms."

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/10/25/why-women-cant-do-pull-ups/?_r=0

[treestar]

172. Very interesting.

Showing the limited nature of the pull up requirement.

[Marr]

183. Heh-- I can't tell you how many times I've seen that article posted on a fitness site,

and mercilessly torn apart by the many women there who can do tons of pullups. If you train for them the right way, anyone can work up to doing pullups. Doesn't even take long-- maybe 10-20 minutes each week for a few months.

[freeplessinseattle]

184. The title isn't entirely accurate, of course

just one of those attention getting titles to get people to click. Which I did

They expand on it more in the article, and note there are exceptions, (such as those women who would belong to a fitness site) but in general they have a disadvantage-and more importantly, the pull up isn't necessarily an indication of overall fitness or ability.

[MillennialDem]

257. Easiest way is to rubber band train for pull ups (assisted pull ups).

[Codeine]

165. Every healthy adult should be able to do three pullups.

Obviously some folks have medical limitations, but I'm a scrawny little bastard and I can do eight to ten fairly easily. That's just basic physical fitness.

On edit: I just broke out the pullup bar that goes over the door jamb -- I only managed six. And the last one hurt pretty bad.

[liberal_at_heart]

166. I'm sure if they adjusted the training and possibly the diet, the majority of the female

recruits would be able to do the pull ups. With a volunteer force the military knows they need women recruits. They will find a way for them to meet the requirement. I have no doubt.

[surrealAmerican]

168. alternate headline:

"Boot camp fails to prepare recruits to do three pull ups"

It would be a failure of the individuals if most could do pull ups. If most can't, it's a failure of the system.

[liberal_at_heart]

169. good point.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

190. boot camp is very short duration. building the upper body strength enough vs. body mass to perform

3 or more pullups is a function of the person's overall fitness and strength--not their crash course conditioning in basic.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

177. Can't do THREE pull ups?

Yikes.

[Marr]

180. A pullup is a good indicator of how strong a person is for their size.

The leaner and stronger you are, the easier they are. I know women who can do a lot more than three- you just have to train for it. Yes, it takes women longer to get there, but they can get there just like men.

[alarimer]

194. I love the comments from the Fighting Keyboardists at that site.

I bet most of them couldn't do a single one if you put a ham sandwich on the bar.

It sounds to me like they just need practice. Knowing in advance what's required and prepping to meet this arbitrary standard is probably the way to go.

Me, I hated the Presidential fitness test in school because I could not do half of the stupid exercises, yet I was a swimmer and soccer player, so I was fit in that sense, I just didn't meet the arbitrary standard.

[aznativ]

198. I love this...98% of you have not ever served, much less as an Infantryman and you are

actually debating something you dont know shit about.



I served in the 82nd Airborne from 88-92 as an Infantryman. Later in the Guard as an artillery crewman and MP.

Anyhow- unless you have lived life as an Infantryman (not just in school, but for years) you dont know what the fuck you are talking about.

Bottom line- yes there are women who can pull it off. Problem is not many can. Many guys are too much of a pussy to do it for that matter.

I served in combat in Iraq and had three women in my platoon. They all did a good job, but we were an MP Platoon, not an infantry unit. We rode in Humvees. I know for a fact in a hand to hand fight, none of them would have been any match for even the weakest male in my platoon. They were jut too small and frankly not all that strong. One of them prob would bruise you up a bit, but she would still have been easy to just flat out kill with your bare hands.

Now that being said- I am adamantly against women in the Infantry. Not because I dislike them, or that they cant fight or whatever, but they are just too fucking small to hump the gear which at times goes on for days so might as well be forever... I was an RTO (radio telophone operator) for a year and I pretty much felt like I would die sometimes the load was so heavy.

Additionally, they will not fit in with this bunch. The Infantry treats their troops horribly (the peers do) and hazing is the norm. Once one deals with the hazing at night, they have to deal with the work environment. The PT training is unfucking real and I hope these women are ready for the ruck runs for PT. They will get eaten alive by these guys. Many men cant take it and are run out of these units.

Of course the Army will tell the grunts to be nice and probably even place minders in the Infantry formations in order to ensure nothing too crazy happens, but that will change in the mountains of Afghanistan or wherever they end up going.

Once you are up in there stuck on your own, you are just plain ole fucked. Better be able to hump the gear.

If my daughter wanted to joint the Army/Marines I guess I would get over it, but if she wanted to go infantry I would be physically ill. I know what goes on there and pardon me for being a bit chivalrous, but it is no place for a lady. Even the most vile, nasty talking women I know wouldnt fit in with that crowd. It is a wonder I ever got out of there with any ability to act civilly.

The Infantry is a bunch of testosterone loaded guys who are chomping at the bit to go kill someone....any motherfucker Uncle Sam will let them throw down with. I loved my infantry days, but frankly it is an existence that no one really knows or understands unless they have lived it, and 90 percent of the military never has and never will.

Ok- anyway here is a study of Soldier loads conducted in OEF in 2003. It was of 82nd Airborne troops doing the fighting.

All the info needed re what infantry troops carry and how much it weighs is in there.

So all you who want to imagine what it is like or what it may take to do the job, here is an inkling.

Good night!

http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/modernwarriorload/ModernWarriorsCombatLoadReport.pdf

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Us+Soldiers+in+Afghanistan&FORM=RESTAB#view=detail&id=C2C48969D21744D187A3EB1936C5E7A9554ABDF2&selectedIndex=56

[nadinbrzezinski]

218. You know what is funny?

I talked to a hot shot firefighter during one of the major fires. He was in his off time, after 24 hours on the line. He used to be a SEAL. I think that is as bad ass as it comes. His opinion, after serving with women Hot a Shots, it's a tight elite community, he has no issues with women in combat. As he put it, they hump packs, heavy packs, keep up no problem.

Will every woman who applies make it? Nope. Does every man, nope. Will women leave after a term or less due to injuries? Just like men do.

Do you think this firefighter, former Navy SEAL has a clue? What he also said is the military should consult especially with wild land fire fighting trainers. They manage to do regularly what the military has yet to figure out, how to train women for that same upper body strength needed. (As they did to train paratroopers initially, what does WW 2 paratroop training have in common with smoke jumpers? Like everything short of small arms)

What is also funny is that many of the posters on this thread have served.

But hey, there are many submariners who fought women in subs until...the order came down. It was the last place in the Navy for that. As my husband put it, he is a retired submariner, he wanted women in subs. It would make shore-sea rotations possible. Don't worry, many wives were not thrilled either.

Oh and I served somewhere else. I was one of the first idiots with cooties to break the glass ceiling. I joke with women firefighters. The women folk still have issues finding gear, like boots, that fits. So we find that to be funny. As to those elite units, a good percentage are now women.

One last thing I forgot to mention. I could apply your post to men talking of women in so many other jobs, both within and outside the military that were at one time not open to women. Many men resist the entry of women, and I expect the first women to make it, including the three Marines that just did finish combat school, but the Corp is holding back, to be harassed. The last thing the boys want is for women to prove themselves in that particular field. I somewhat talk from experience here. But hey, I knew I made it when they said I was one of the boys.

My foopah, four women. Here us the link.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/women-complete-marine-combat-training-article-1.1523552

[aznativ]

232. This isnt a glass ceiling issue-

it is an issue of whether or not female Marines can do three pull-ups, which apparently they (the average female Marine) cannot.

I dont know what kind of organization you made it into as you never said...you know the one where they called you one of the "boys." I assume from the context of your response it is the firefighting field.

I give the opinion of a SEAL quite a bit of merit. Given that he works with hotshots he has a unique perspective. Hotshots are volunteers and likely many of them are tri-athletes or something to begin with. They found this field and worked to achieve a position there. I venture to say the washout rate for hotshot training for females is exponentially higher than for males.

I looked up the standard (what little info I could find- see link http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/people/hotshots/IHC_hist.html ) and found that hotshot candidates are required to perform a three mile hike with 45 lb pack in 45 min. Ok, seems reasonable. I dont know what a "hike" is considered to be, but it probably isnt easy.

I will contrast that with the US Army Infantry minimum standard to "pass" the road march test:

Forced foot march: complete a 12-mile foot march, carrying M4 and 35 lb. load + extra gear for a total of up to 70 lbs, within three hours.

The route for the foot march is either on paved or dirt road / trail and I have done it on both hilly and fairly level terrain. Depended upon where my unit was currently located. Three hours just kept you in the unit, not off of remedial PT. They expected between a 2:30 and 2:45 time just to keep the NCOs off your ass. The Army expected us to do these as a graded event quarterly which we did. We also did ruck runs and while in the field pretty much spent most of the day/night under a rucksack.

Back to chin-ups / pull-ups or whatever, some have talked of a special training program for women so they could be more successful at them. While I was an instructor at our police academy, we had both male and females in our classes (this was late 90s) and our PT was the same for everyone. After every run we stopped at the chin-up bars (necessary because cops climb walls) and everyone had to do as many s they possibly could. Males could easily do several while the females generally could only do a few. I dont think I ever counted how many they did, but do recall the females having problems with them. Fast forward to our SWAT team. We had a test that involved chin-ups and only had two females pass the test- in the entire history of the department.

So- not having any special training for chin-ups other than opportunity, the males outperformed females by wide margins on that exercise. The males also did much better on runs. Situps were about the same. Women kick ass with situps.

So 4 of 15 women who attempted the infantry school made the cut to graduate. That is a 74% washout rate....WTF?

My conclusion on this is if you have a group of female marines who have just completed boot camp, in prime physical condition AND they volunteered and we still have a 74% washout rate- apparently the problem isn't the training program, but rather perhaps women are not suited for Infantry work.

[nadinbrzezinski]

233. Nope, they made it thorugh training

and the Corp is holding them back by not sending them to a specific infantry unit.

Read what I said about a former NAVY SEAL who did a full career and used to believe the same way you do. Then he started working with Hot Shots, who happen to be women, and that opened his eyes. Women, and it is a minority mind you, will be able to do it, if given the chance. Just as it is not a majority of men who join the service and end up as infantry. You know that, I know that. Let alone the number of people who make it to elite units like the Rangers, Recon, or SEAL, or PJs, not to forget the AF here.

You are in a very much male centric culture, where all you are repeating right now has been said about women in other MOS's in the past. (Look at helicopter pilots for example, as just plain out fighter pilots), as well as civilian life. The same crap was said about women in the Fire Service and Police Service. Both have women in them, and recently, it is recent, women serve as hot shots and SWAT. It is the same demands placed on them as their male counterparts.

Do I expect a high wash out rate? Absolutely, not everybody is cut out for it, regardless of gender, or to be brutal, skin color

And yes, the Services, not just the Marines, should ask fire righters how the fuck they do it? Above somebody suggested asking the Israelis as well, and that would be a marvelous idea.

You should go read what the Top Brass used to say about them blacks who wanted to fly for the Air Corp in WW II. The language you are using is very similar.

Oh and why did that SEAL change his view on this? From your post...

Forced foot march: complete a 12-mile foot march, carrying M4 and 35 lb. load + extra gear for a total of up to 70 lbs, within three hours.

The route for the foot march is either on paved or dirt road / trail and I have done it on both hilly and fairly level terrain. Depended upon where my unit was currently located. Three hours just kept you in the unit, not off of remedial PT. They expected between a 2:30 and 2:45 time just to keep the NCOs off your ass. The Army expected us to do these as a graded event quarterly which we did. We also did ruck runs and while in the field pretty much spent most of the day/night under a rucksack.

Switch your M-4 for a heavy hand tool or a nice one of these, the saw the guy is using to cut the tree down, not the guy. And include the chaps by the way



And you have the same concept.

Add to your forced march though the obligatory smoke and fire and flames from a wild fire when they deploy to a fire, Otherwise, yup... and. I think the only difference is the radio. All carry them, but they are smaller units.

[aznativ]

238. There are more differences

"Add to your forced march though the obligatory smoke and fire and flames from a wild fire when they deploy to a fire, Otherwise, yup... and. I think the only difference is the radio..."

The other difference is the distance. The Army standard is 12 miles, not three like the hotshots.

I will leave the discussion with a few thoughts:

1- If the females passed the school, put them in a line unit and treat them just like the males.

Just like this when they fuck up too>>>

I've seen this shit go on for hours just for being a PT failure (less than 250). . Males get this treatment all day long and no one even blinks. One can debate whether or not it is an effective discipline or motivation tool, but this is how attitude or slacking performance gets "discussed." It was this way when I was a private and apparently not much has changed.

2- nice article with very interesting perspective. This woman was the ideal candidate for this experiment and she has a good story too.

http://www.mca-marines.org/gazette/article/get-over-it-we-are-not-all-created-equal


So- I suppose we will all just have to wait and see what happens. Could be interesting.

[nadinbrzezinski]

242. I want them to be placed in the unit

yup. They passed advanced combat school, put them in there. Give them their chance. The Corp is fighting it, like all services have fought expansions of OTHER COMBAT BILLETS like oh, helicopter pilots. Go ask Congresswoman Duckworth just how hard she, and women like her, had to fight for those billets.

Oh I forgot, that is likely not a combat billet.

And yup, it was breaking that glass ceiling as well. I got a clue, since I did that, not in the US Military, but I did, and boy I had to prove myself every shift. So yes, I am sure she had to prove herself too.


I'd better add the in there. After all she lost both legs to an RPG. You think she did not need that UPPER BODY strength to land her crippled air ship and then to pull herself out? Yup, the medics kept her alive, but it was HER UPPER BODY STRENGTH that saved her crew,

[aznativ]

243. Correct me if I am wrong, but Army aviation opened to women in 1972 and

combat aviation opened in 1993. Duckworth didnt even start flying till 1996 when she was completed ROTC.

So what glass ceiling battle did she fight to get there? Sounds like that battle was fought before she was even in the Army. I believe she went in in 1996.

See story here:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/02/09/tammy-duckworth-on-gun-control-women-in-combat.html

Nevertheless, not to diminish her service any as she performed her job admirably. What it has to do with the current argument is a mystery to me.

I'm with you- let them in if they meet the standard and make sure they have to do everything like everyone else..pt test needs to be on the male charts too...you know, just to be fair.

[nadinbrzezinski]

245. From her own official bio

In 2004, Duckworth was deployed to Iraq as a Blackhawk helicopter pilot for the Illinois Army National Guard. She was one of the first Army women to fly combat missions during Operation Iraqi Freedom until her helicopter was hit by an RPG on November 12, 2004. Duckworth lost her legs and partial use of her right arm in the explosion and was awarded a Purple Heart for her combat injuries.

Go correct her. And what it has to do with this current argument is that men said women could not hack it, just like you are doing right now. men who said women could not, would not, be able to do the job or handle it.

Once again, those four marines completed advanced combat training. Send them to their units. Have them deploy if need be. They finished that training, stop holding them off. It is that simple.

Mind you, I wrote Marine since the Corp should only see Marine.

[aznativ]

246. umm what am I supposed to correct here??? The link I provided was an interview of her- her words

I never said she wasnt one of the first women to fly combat missions ins iraq...hell during that time anyone flying in iraq was one of the first ones.

http://www.army.mil/article/97320/Women_make_their_mark_in_combat_aviation/

Check the date (in article above) on the first female helo pilot shot down in combat. It was in 1991. I am thinking you are reading way too much into Duckworth's bio. Likely she means the first during the war. She was one of the first ones, but there are tons of female pilots so she isnt alone.

Combat aviation billets (job positions in army speak) were open to women in 1993. That is three years or so before she was in the army.

She didnt have to fight to get into army aviation, it was open to women. Someone else broke the glass ceiling long before she got there.

Lastly- you need to read my entire post before responding...I am agreeing with you so you dont need to keep beating me over the head with that response-I got it the first time.

Stick the four women in the Infantry and lets see what happens. I dont like it, but me not liking it isnt going to stop it, just like you wanting them there isnt gonna make them successful. Let the chips fall where they may.

Have them go by the male standard for everything. I'm sure you are all for them having to take the pt test to the male standard.

[nadinbrzezinski]

247. These marines made it, period, end of discussion

Have an excellent day. You are like many before you, who simply do not want groups of people besides them. Some women can hack it. Let them. To be honest, like some men can hack it.

Have an excellent day. Your army will be gone, as it opens up to women. Frankly I cannot wait for that day.

[aznativ]

249. Nice to see you cant wait..why dont you enlist?

Go get in line.

I actually served in combat with women and if you look at my first post, you will see that I said they did a good job. I never disparaged their service, but they are not Infantry material.

The difference here is you cant wait for women to fill combat roles and they (the ones who were in it) couldnt wait to get the fuck out of that hell hole called iraq- just like the guys.

The women I served with reached a higher bar then you did because they actually signed up and have served in combat. You are just excited for someone else to do it for whatever reason that may be. Why dont you step up and take the place of one of them since you are so up in arms about the whole thing? One of my Soldiers (female) is perm disabled because of her wound so there's one spot open just for you since you are at the end of your chain about it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

251. Son, I did my time.

Oh and let me add this for you, while not in the US military, them bullets don't give a fuck what uniform you wear. I know women can do it. And they will do it well.

You are making so many assumptions here it is not even funny. Including the lack of service.

Gets worst, I also had to keep my people safe under what would and did qualify as small arms fire repeatedly. So I did not have to worry about IEDs...and I had rounds pass within millimeters of my head.

And no, I don't believe war is an adventure. My choice, if I could, every potential recruit should have to watch Dalton Trumbo's Johnny got his gun. Or worst, go to the local ward and visit with war casualties. We should also stop cleaning up. Err, censoring the news, and the true horrors should be in the evening news.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_Got_His_Gun

But if a woman can qualify and wants to serve, like these four marines who made it through advanced training, let them.

[aznativ]

258. You did your time doing what?

I made an assumption in an earlier post (#232 2nd PP) that your were a firefighter as that was your primary frame of reference. You did not refute that.

Now, it would seem from your latest comments that you are a police officer? or maybe a gang member? They both get shot at fairly routinely these days. Any cop can get shot at BTDT and it still has nothing to do with the rigors of infantry life.

If you are a cop and you are equivocating LE work anywhere in the US with being an Infantry Soldier you are definitely smoking the product you are selling. While you are correct in that bullets are non-discriminatory, the rest of the job is nothing like that of an Infantryman as it relates to physical demands.

I know this because I also had a career as a cop in the Phoenix metro area. Nothing I did in police work to include SWAT was anywhere near as hard as my time in the Infantry. In fact, the hardest part (Academy) was pretty much a vacation for me as I had only recently finished my active duty stint in the Army.

This last decade LE in general has been fighting a rapid decline in fitness levels of their personnel because 99% of agencies do not have an annual (pick your interval) fitness test nor do they allow exercise on duty. A few agencies do, but they are the exception to the rule. That being said, once a cop gets out of the academy, the effort needed to be retained on the job as it relates to fitness is about----ZERO---. Thats real tough. Female clerks in the Army have to work harder just to get a lousy score much less a good one on their APFT.

So what is it exactly you do / did for a living where you "did your time? firefighting, LE, what? And how does that in any way come to be the equivalent of service in a theater of war? Are you guys (girls) humping 100 lb rucks up/in/around the hills for days on end where you work? I'm betting not.

[nadinbrzezinski]

259. What I did I have posted here many a times

Last edited Mon Dec 30, 2013, 02:35 PM - Edit history (3)

Suffice it to say it is not a gang member, there you go ASSuming again. Or a cop. I was a medic son, and held a commission in somebody else's military. So there you go.

I was responsible for a company, so you can guess at the commission. I had an ambulance shot out from under me, always a lovely feeling. And lord knows I needed that upper body strength to drag casualties out from the line of fire. (Not the ambulance, only thing killed was the radiator and the radio on that one) Did I mention under the Geneva Convention I carried no weapons? Thankfully this was not an every day thing. But we did wallow in plenty of gun trauma. You would rightfully assume though that due to plenty of turf wars between cartels, that you can rightfully assume.

American EMS (civilian that is) will never be allowed that close to a fire fight, we were required to.

When I started I was told we were freaks. We were harassed, these days it's acceptable. I used the fire services because they have been doing this far longer than the US military, that is train women for what are essentially front line assignments. They figured it out. There is a history of the US military asking wild land fire, how the fuck do you guys do it? Just all paratroop training during WW2.

In an ideal world you and I would never be sharing this, since neither of us, or anybody else for that matter, would need to serve. War is not a picnic, guts are not fun, people screaming is not nice, and dead weights are all but fun. Especially when you add mosquitoes to the mix, and my patients never ever had those nice vests with pulling straps. In an ideal world Suzzie would not be thinking of serving in any branch either, since we would not have a military, nobody would. Back in the real world by orders of the CinC combat arms are now going to be opened to women. It is what it is, where I served, we shut up, went to attention and said yes sir three bags full. After that, we figured it out. It's not complicated. Ask those with the decades old experience these days.

Oh and I forgot to mention the PRT standards, and that I was one of the PT trainers too. So I had to figure out how to get women in shape, and upper body strength.

As I said, you are assuming a lot. I also should add, I am not as fit as I used to be. Carrying my happy ass up a dead drop with ropes and prusick knots and a 60 pound medic bag are well in my past.

[aznativ]

265. In this thread you never said what you did in the past.

and if you think I'm gonna dig through all 128K+ posts to figure it out you are out of your mind. Kinda lends to people assuming as they have no other choice since you wont just come out and say it. I asked and even posited a theory and you still didnt say what you did. Whatever- I guess you need fuel for the fire in order to get to 130K posts this week or next for whatever that is worth.

Geneva convention prohibited you from carrying weapons??? WTF? Did you ever read it? It doesnt prohibit that. Just makes med personnel non-legit targets because of their unique mission, does not prohibit self defense or defense of third parties such as....patients. Since you were a commander of sorts of some un-named military (or civil service organization- who knows you wont say for whatever reason) you prob know of the geneva convention provisions. Why medics would enter a battlefield ( I am ASSuming that is what you did- somewhere) unarmed is beyond me. American medics are armed.

You are right, fire service advised the US army in parachuting ie how to get people from the plane onto a target area. They had already kinda perfected the science of calculating forward throw, taking wind / altitude / load weight and temp into account for drop calculations. They did not train the US army how to fight...just how to get people on a drop zone. Still has absolutely has nothing to do with combat, just delivery of soldiers and supplies. Hell the railroad and trucking industry were probably also consulted at one point in time...why in the world would we reinvent the wheel?

[nadinbrzezinski]

270. Gee I also taught international humanitarian law

And we were prohibited never mind we were shot at regularly.

And short of fire arms, the fire service training, as in pt, and conditioning was exactly the same. We are talking PT here, and conditioning. Which is the point of the OP. Marines have not figured out how to het women to accomplish three pull ups. Wtf over? We are not even talking advanced infantry. Where I will lay good odds on very few women making it.

Regardless, the CinC ordered them opened by 2016, they'd better stop the grumbling, snap to and say yes sir three bags full.

Oh and one last thing, American medics, like most military medics, have the option, just the option to carry defensive arms to protect equipment and patients under their care.

[aznativ]

273. IHL doesnt prohibit self-defense

CH7 rule 25 says medical personnel may be armed and can defend themselves.

http://www.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/v1_cha_chapter7_rule25

[nadinbrzezinski]

279. I wrote that

Last edited Mon Dec 30, 2013, 07:59 PM - Edit history (3)

Didn't I? Oh yes I did. You have the option to carry it to defend your patients and gear. You have that option. But that's ok. I guess I was not clear.

Since you obviously missed it, here is what I wrote.

Oh and one last thing, American medics, like most military medics, have the option, just the option to carry defensive arms to protect equipment and patients under their care.

I should add since Vietnam more medics are exercising that option

Regardless, it is not about me, which you are trying to make this about, by first saying I should enlist...then by the rest of it. It is about the PT the Corp is doing. It is also about a legal lawful order given by the chain of command., and women who already completed that training. Buck up and find a way to fulfill it, or get out of the way. Yup, it is that simple.

[dionysus]

286. "I also taught international humanitarian law"

well....

[DashOneBravo]

290. Lower standards

The US Army will lower the standards just like they did for Airborne School. And now you have fat male paratroopers.

While I'd like to witness your prusit knot climb that could probably place in the Best Ranger competition next year. I doubt it will happen.

However I think the Marines will keep the standards gender free.

And that's a good thing.

[nadinbrzezinski]

291. You signed up to insult?

Well, that must be a record. Good bye.

[DashOneBravo]

292. Check yourself

If 50 people on a board are pointing in at you.

Maybe you should double check your azimuth.

[dionysus]

274. i see you've met nadin...

[aznativ]

277. yep- been interesting

[zappaman]

282. Welcome to DU...

son!

[treestar]

219. well you've shown us!

We will shut up now and adopt your opinion!

[pinboy3niner]

236. You should have stopped with "yes there are women who can pull it off."

The rest is just strawman objections that are beside the point. If a woman qualifies--say, as an RTO--and can hump the radio, her ruck, and other gear, and can do the job, what's the problem?

If a troop in your unit can "pull it off," that's all that counts--not race, ethnicity, gender, or anything else. They're all olive green (or chocolate chip, or whatever the prescribed uniform is).

And yes, I do have an inkling about a grunt's job. I served as an Infantry rifle platoon leader in Vietnam combat (2/501 Inf., 101st Airborne Div.).

[Gravitycollapse]

253. I bet using the slur "pussy" makes you feel like a real cool guy.

[DashOneBravo]

289. Really?

That's a slur?

He's a cool guy because he jumped out of planes.

As for the pussy comment I would not have said that. But you are called everything when you get to a line unit. And that was from the Padre.

The reason isnt to degrade females wanting to serve. It's to find a weakness.

[Gravitycollapse]

293. Pussy is a slur in almost any context. Especially when used to shame a man.

It is a not so secret reference to potential homosexuality (which is abject) and mocking of women (femininity in men is considered undesirable).

The macho name calling routine is something most people abandon after middle school. It's childish and stupid.

[DashOneBravo]

294. One point

I agree with the childish and stupid behavior. It's an Infantry unit. The job isn't using bad words to shame a man.

It's to kill the other guy (which is not subjective) and take care of the guy on the side of you.

[Gravitycollapse]

295. "The job isn't using bad words to shame a man. " - That's exactly what it's doing.

Did you bother to read the post?

[DashOneBravo]

296. I did read it.

And no it's not. Hell even your mother or sisters weren't off limits when it came to crude remarks.

[Gravitycollapse]

297. So basically you think soldiers have the go ahead to act like sexist pigs.

I guess acting like 12 year olds helps with unit cohesion.

[DashOneBravo]

305. Nope

"Sexist pigs"

Are you lost in the 60's? As for questions about unit cohesion. Watch that video of a slow to learn PVT doing 3-5 second rushes.

[aznativ]

298. hmmm, not what my motivation was

.........but if one is not cutting the mustard well then that just may be their new name. Dont think for a minute the infantry is more civilized and above all that sophomoric stuff...it isn't. It is designed with one purpose in mind- to kill people.

I'll leave you with a good video clip you might enjoy. Hope it doesnt offend anyone..well actually I dont care, but here is the warning>>

Ironic thing is I think the young lady in the video can probably knock out some chin ups....someone hits the gym.

[Gravitycollapse]

299. This reminds me of an argument I fell into with a soldier in class once.

Who said that the military was more efficient than civil society at getting jobs done.

I promptly reminded her that efficiency is only relevant to what is being done. The military is efficient at one thing; killing people. So I agree with you on that point. I will also agree with you that the military is not a bastion of intelligence or compassion or maturity. It's actually just the opposite. It is a stronghold for animality, stupidity, misanthropy, selfishness and immaturity.

Which is why the banter between troops resembles the banter between middle schoolers. The same sort of authoritative structure is inherent to both situations.

What really bothers me, however, is not simply the existence of such ignorance among soldiers. No, what's worse is people who choose to justify the ignorance.

I don't personally care at all what kind of argument you possess. Your credentials don't intimidate me. They don't intimidate me on here and they wouldn't intimidate me in real life. Your argument for situational bigotry is duly noted and also duly dismissed because it is invalid.

[aznativ]

300. No one it trying to intimidate you

or anyone else.

Just telling it like it is.

[Gravitycollapse]

303. I'm not daft. The language you're using is meant to intimidate.

Hence, calling a man a pussy is meant to get him back in line with normative social expectations. It is a form of intimidation.

Just as the argument of exceptional bigotry is a form of intimidation against those who challenge its relevancy.

[aznativ]

304. I suppose your right...yea you are

that pretty much sums it up in the infantry. Fall into line, suck it up, carry your weight, dont ever be last on the run and do your fucking pull ups after you get off the rope climb.

or GTFO.

Perhaps I misread your post, but I thought you were saying I was trying to intimidate you. Maybe I cant read. i am just merely stating the way things are.

Yep it is all about intimidation when it comes to someone who isnt hacking it. They get called mean things and dont get treated very well. The PC crap doesnt exist there and it is all about doing your fair share and being able to handle being treated like shit by everyone till you earn your spot in the team- and that can take forever if someone is weak. That is about the time they get called bad names and stuff.

They end up leaving because they dont belong. That is how the guys who cant make it get handled. When the girls get there- and they will, I'm pretty sure the Army will issue each unit a political officer to make sure no one fucks with them like they would the guys.

[DashOneBravo]

288. Inf

The Infantry is a bunch of testosterone loaded guys who are chomping at the bit to go kill someone....any motherfucker Uncle Sam will let them throw down with. I loved my infantry days, but frankly it is an existence that no one really knows or understands unless they have lived it, and 90 percent of the military never has and never will.

Good post. People forget it's not the peace corp.

And there is a reason West Point grads line up for those crossed rifles.

[Ash_F]

202. Three pull-ups is not unreasonable for a fit woman.

Not that I think anybody, male or female, should join the military in this day and age.

[sarisataka]

204. Men and women are different...

and always will be.

I have seen women who could do pull ups and many who can not. I have seen many men struggle on the pull ups during PFT- it was always my weakest event.
One time, for fun we reversed roles and tested the men on the female standard for dead hang time. Most men couldn't come close to the times our females put up.

Doesn't seem to be a huge issue IMO; more study would not be a bad idea.

[flashcloud]

207. As a former Marine Instructor

This doesn't surprise me. Not even a little bit.

[rudolph the red]

208. What did you instruct?

I spent a few years in the Marines, and I have never heard anyone describe themselves as a Marine Instructor before.

[flashcloud]

211. I've held two different line billets with the title Instructor

I hate going really in depth on the interwebs about myself, because it becomes easy to ID me, but I was Inspector/Instructor Staff, and I was a Marine Instructor at Fort Wood.

I've had females as students, and they could not do dead hang pull ups at all. Even doing flex hang was a challenge for a couple of them. And yes of course there a some females that you'll meet in the Corps that can out dead hang pull up males. But they are far and few in-between to just about be anomalies.

[anti partisan]

209. My 2 cents

1. The standards should only be created in order to weed out those who lack certain capabilities needed to adequately function in the Marine Corps.

2. Men and women should be subject to the same standards. Due to different biology, men on average are naturally more capable of doing certain tasks, some of which may be essential for being a Marine. This is not a problem, nor should it be sugar-coated.

So if the upper-body-strength-per-weight demonstrated by pull-ups is a good metric for determining how well someone could serve the Marine Corps, it should not be taken out because too many women fail it.

[Notafraidtoo]

210. Just need more strength training

I have every confidence that with pre boot camp training women can do more than three pull ups, also don't think it would be a problem to do that training for those that want to be apart of ground combat. Due to natural advantage women often are excellent marksman having someone that can shoot on your side cant be a bad thing.

[randome]

220. So how does the Israeli army cope?

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[treestar]

221. Yep. When an army needs people

It doesn't create unneeded weed-out factors. Funny that.

[Glassunion]

264. They have their own version of the tests. They are the same requirements for both sexes.

The "Bar Or" test, requires 86 situps, 75 straight leg pushups and run a 2k in under 7 minutes.

To be an officer, they need to complete the "Loren Test", which includes successful night navigation, pulling yourself up and over a 10ft wall, completing an obstacle course, running two miles, and then target-shooting with a 22 minute time limit.

[westerebus]

226. ALL VOLUNTEER FORCE

No one is being forced to join the Marines.

Or the Army, Navy, or Air Force.

Army Rangers are all volunteer's with a wipe out rate of 80%.

That's 80% of soldiers who are trained up to a high standard to begin with.

Special Forces same thing, many Rangers who try out are cut and they are the best the Army has.

SEAL's 90% don't make it thru the initial phase of training.

Not every body will be Marines either.

Being grunts isn't easy.

It never was.

It never will be.

[Joel thakkar]

231. Physical Training camp

"ensure all female Marines are given the best opportunity to succeed" - Give them a physical training camp to improve their skills.. I hope they also give the "physical training camp" for 1% men who have also failed so that it also ensures that all male marines are given the best opportunity to succeed.

[Kingofalldems]

234. More PT Drill Sergeant!

[penultimate]

237. It's just three pull-ups, why is this an issue?

I fail to see why anyone, male or female, who doesn't have a physical disability, cannot train themselves to do three pull-ups over a fairly short period of time. We're not talking about a super human feat here.

[Prophet 451]

254. Time and training will change that

Virtually anyone (and certainly anyone who wants to become a Marine) can be trained to perform three pull-ups.

[Rex]

262. Yeah the pull up has so much to do with shooting a rifle! NOT!

Ridiculous, anything to keep women from being on equal footing with men. I understand the fear, they might outdo the gents in combat! So using something completely unrelated to combat is a good cowards way out imo.

[penultimate]

266. These requirements were not instituted recently just to prevent women from going into combat

they have been requirements for a long time. There isn't any reason why a man or woman cannot train themselves to do three pull-ups.

[Rex]

267. True, but 3 pull ups is not necessary to fire a rifle accurately. It proves nothing toward

combat prowess. Looks like more red tape to me.

[penultimate]

268. I'd suspect it's because there is more to combat than just firing a rifle

Being able to run ten miles is irrelevant to firing a rifle too, but it's something they do for overall fitness. If the current methods are ineffective then that's why it should be challenged (or not, I don't know enough to say either way). I don't think trying to do it under the banner equality is the best route to go though. If anything, that seems counter-productive to me.

[Rex]

269. I doubt it.

When it comes to combat, it is ALL about firing a rifle, pistol, missile, rocket or some other device at the enemy before he/she can do it to you first. I understand the reason for being fit, but 3 pull ups tells me nothing about how someone is going to do at a live fire exercise or much much worse...in actual combat. They have a different standard in the Army for men and women on the PT test...guess I just don't understand marines very well.

[hack89]

285. Carrying nearly 80 pounds or more for long distances is a huge part of it

Picking up and carrying wounded men to safety is a big part of it. Pulling yourself over obstacles is a part of it.

Real combat is not video game.

[Glassunion]

272. It has nothing to do with shooting a rifle.

Shooting a rifle has everything to do with shooting a rifle. They are also graded on that. Annually.

This particular test called the PFT has been in use for over 40 years in its current form. Every Marine goes through this twice a year. They also go through the CTF (combat fitness test) either twice a year (active duty) or annually (reserves).

Currently the Marines have decided to review this one metric (there are two others), in the PFT. They are taking the time to determine if it is an accurate measure of upper body strength. They are not doing anything to keep women from from being on equal footing with men. If they were, they would not be delaying the requirement, nor would they be taking time to review it.

Currently in the PFT the scale is different for men and women in 2 of the 3 metrics. The scale is graduating, so that women can score the same as men. Currently to pull off a perfect score a male would have to do 20 pull-ups, 100 crunches, and run 3 miles in under 18:00 minutes. A female would have to do a flexed arm hang for 70 seconds, 100 crunches, and run the 3 miles in under 21 minutes. If they were going out of their way to keep women from being on an equal footing with men, they would make all metrics identical, which is exactly what they did not do.

[Kaleva]

283. I had to run 2 1/2 miles under a certain time in Navy boot camp

There isn't a ship anywhere near that long in service but maybe the higher ups thought I could do the Jesus thing and just run to the nearest shore after the ship sank.

[johnnyrocket]

278. The stats speak for themselves, 1% of men can't do it, 50% of women can't do it. Not sure...

...what the argument is. Newsflash: men and women are physically different.

[elfin]

280. Geezer gal here - keep the standards

Offer women AND men a pre sign up opportunity to train and demonstrate eligibility if they qualify in other areas in screening.

We need all recruits to be capable and strong.

If our young people cannot measure up - bring back PE - don't cut it as is happening in public schools to save money.

Lowering past proven standards is not a good idea for combat. Still too many situations require physical strength.

And I am in favor of adding women to combat.

[wildeyed]

281. Three pull-ups is completely doable for anyone who cares enough to train a bit.

I could do multiple sets of 12 in my 20's and now, even in middle age, can do 7-8 without too much problem. Any young woman who is serious about passing the training will be able to do this.

[senseandsensibility]

287. I agree.

I was a tiny ninety pound twelve year old when I was diagnosed with scoliosis, and one of therapies was pullups. I could do two or three, and worked myself up to twenty.

[LeftyMom]

284. Wouldn't the problem be solved with a better designed, functional test?

If the question is whether somebody can lift X or climb Y, (and nobody credible seems to be claiming that fit women can't do those things) why not test for those rather than doing a test that is uniquely difficult for female anatomy, and which does not represent the work required?

[proudretiredvet]

302. The question really is.

How PC can you afford to be when there are lives at stake. The rest is all BS, that is the pertinent question.
What are you supposed to tell the guy who is wounded and needs lifted over a fence or out of a ditch. I'm sorry I'm not required or expected to do that because I'm a girl.
Dead is dead and a warriors life is always dependent on those around them. There has to be standards, there always has been and always will be.
There is no room for sexual discrimination in the military but that does not mean that we are all equal in strength and ability either. You either can do it, or you can't.