need advice on engine: used or rebuilt

[steve2470]

Here's the situation: I gave my son my 2000 Honda Civic to use until it completely falls apart or he gets another used vehicle. Instructed him on taking care of it, oil changes, etc.

A week ago, a bolt snapped on the engine and all the oil drained out while driving. The engine froze up. The car had to be towed home. I'm getting all this info from him, so I have no idea which bolt, etc. He swears it was NOT the oil drain plug. I can easily believe that, since it is an old vehicle with 150K miles.

His older brother is good with Hondas, and is going to search the local junkyards for a used engine for the vehicle. Is this a good option versus the cost of rebuilding the engine ? Any information appreciated, thanks.

[Spider Jerusalem]

1. Used may be a good option vs rebuilt, but...

a rebuilt engine will have had the crankshaft, valvetrain, pistons and seals replaced and will come with a warranty. You can get an off-the-shelf rebuilt engine installed instead of having the current engine rebuilt (which will take longer and may be more expensive; if the oil drained completely and the engine seized it'll probably need new pistons and the cylinders may need honing, it may also need a new cylinder head, new valves, new camshaft...(IIRC Hondas have an valvetrain that's designed in such a way that any of the pistons at full stroke will be in contact with the valves, because of the overhead cam design; therefore if any of the pistons were at full compression the valves will be bent from contact).

[steve2470]

2. good info, thank you

As long as the used engine is in good condition overall, I can live with that.

[The Straight Story]

3. My 2 cents

I had an older car that I drove across country many times. It blew an oil sending unit while on the road at night and drained rather quickly, though I did pull over when the light came on and avoided major damage. Same car later developed a cracked head and I think the repairs costs me like seven hundred (back in the 90's).

Labor, of course, is the highest cost. In your case might be best to replace rather than rebuild. Would probably take less time to yank it and drop in a newer/running one than to tear it apart and try to find all of the problems (more than likely there will be more than one). Some planing might need to be done which would facilitate the need for special tools that may not be readily available.

I am no mechanic but my nephew and brother-in-law work on cars and have rebuilt more than a few (Got to help with an old ww2 era jeep many years back, that was fun except when I pulled a muscle moving the engine. We are talking I was 17 and still remember that damned thing and the pain for days. I'll stick with the sanding next time.)

Good luck either way. Mine died 2 years ago, still don't have a car

[Aerows]

6. Replacing a warped or cracked head

is not a backyard mechanic job. It's easier to just replace the engine with a used or professionally rebuilt one.

[Lifelong Dem]

4. You might think of finding another Honda around the same age as well

and using the one you have for parts. Or swap the engines over to the better car. It's sort of a toss up because an engine will cost almost as much as the car itself.

[Aerows]

5. It likely warped the head

If that is the case, you MAY be able to replace the head, but it needs to be a completely well finished one or it is pretty much a futile enterprise (also take into account the pistons). A used engine or an already rebuilt one is a better option. Trying to rebuild it yourself if it has a warped head and bad pistons (or with a backyard mechanic attempting to do it) is not a good idea. On the other hand, replacing it with a working used engine or a professionally rebuilt engine is not nearly as difficult.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

7. Hey, no fair talking about me like that.

Oh, different head. . . . Never mind.

[Aerows]

8. Goofball!

[ChairmanAgnostic]

21. . . . .

LOL

[DirkGently]

9. Probably need more info.

You'd really need a mechanic to look and tell you how severe the damage is to compare to the cost of a used engine, but if your other son, who is mechanically inclined, is recommending an engine replacement, that's probably what you need. Doesn't take much running with no oil to do catastrophic damage, and even a repair leaves the possibility of other damage or weaknesses -- such as whatever caused the failure in the first place -- is still there, or that other bits and pieces were stressed to where they may fail independently.

I think your better comparison may be the home-brew engine replacement vs. the cost of another used car. If the labor's free, and you can find a good deal on an engine, that would probably be cheaper. But you could easily spend a couple of thousand on an engine, and that's getting close to what you might pay for a comparable car.

[steve2470]

11. yes unfortunately I'm no mechanic and the car sits 60 miles away from me

The older brother has worked extensively on Hondas, so I'm assuming he thinks the engine is a total loss/too expensive to repair. Hopefully he can find an engine in good condition that will last for a few years.

[Eleanors38]

27. A seized up engine is likely not rebuildable. Look to:

1) Replacing with a reputable remanufactured engine, employing the "bolt-on" parts from the old motor as needed; or

2) Replacing with used a one that has been tested, and has verifiable service records, esp. timing belt replacement, and clean used plugs (change later).

It is easier to rent tools and swap 'em out.

[OriginalGeek]

10. It all depends how "good with Hondas" brother is.

My brother is "good with cars" and he rebuilds his stuff all the time. Then I wonder why he's always needing to rebuild stuff. Our step-father is a mechanical genius and once built a car from the ground up starting with 2 frames from 70s era Oldsmobiles (He cut the front wheel drive cars in half, welded/bolted/glued whatever the two front halves together so he could have all-wheel steering and then made a fiberglass body that was similar to Lamborhini Countach because he liked the look of those. He was pissed at the Texas DMV though becasue they gave him a huge hassle over vin numbers for getting it tagged but he finally got that worked out).

The point is - If I was in need of an engine rebuild I'd have no fear letting my step-father do it (from a mechanical POV. I don;t talk to him at all if I can help it but that's a whole 'nother story) .

I might let my brother change my oil or maybe bolt on an alternator but I would not let him rebuild an engine for me.

Here's a link to a 2000 Honda Civic used engine with warranty for about 1200 bucks including shipping (to me - you might be farther away but they can find stuff near you too): http://market.autopartsfair.com/honda-used_engines/civic-2000-catalog.html?fit_notes=207583f444b488257ab9e9ace71eee94&seq_num=4&campaign=theautochannel

No idea what a junk yard near your son might have as far as condition but I would personally be more comfortable with something like this if I had a brother who could install it.


So I think you're looking at a grand at least for something trustworthy-ish plus whatever installation would be (beer? carton of cigs? cash?) vs spending that on anther beater.

I miss the days when a boy could buy a 1968 Firebird for 500 bucks and invest some sweat and lunch money to have a pretty cool ride.

[steve2470]

13. thanks for the link

I'm going to pay the brother for installation, whatever he asks. From what I know, he is competent enough to handle this.

If he can't find something reasonable in a junkyard, then I will definitely buy an engine like the one in your link and have it installed. The rest of the car is in very good condition, so the engine is really the only major issue, for now. Of course it will need further repairs as it ages.

[MineralMan]

12. Here in Minneapolis St. Paul,

2000 Civics sell for between $2-3000. Whenever an engine fails on a car, a prime consideration is a comparison of a repair or replacement of the engine and just replacing the whole car.

With a 14-year old car, there are many potential issues that can develop at any time. If you replace the dead engine with a used one, it's very likely you will not actually know the condition of the used engine in much detail. If you replace it with a rebuilt engine, the cost will be more than the value of the car, and that's a big risk. What if the transmission fails not long after that replacement?

I'm not sure what a used engine for that car will sell for, but the labor of swapping engines a major job. If his brother can do the engine swap, you'd save that, but it's always a crap shoot when you buy a used engine. Always.

Add up the costs for each option and weigh them against the value of the car. Take another major component failure into consideration, too.

For a 14-year old car, it's difficult to justify a major repair bill like an engine replacement. Perhaps you should at least consider finding a replacement vehicle that is currently running properly. Your odds are better with that option, I think.

Edit to add: I'm seeing 2000 Honda Civic used engines running around $1000, just about everywhere. Figure on about that for one for the car.

[lumberjack_jeff]

14. Junkyard motor.

The engines in the junkyard drove to the place of the accident.

You can buy rebuilt motors reasonably affordably, but I personally put more trust in a 100,000 mile junkyard motor than a 0 mile rebuilt.

[taught_me_patience]

15. I'd look for a new car

unless you can find a really good friend who could help you replace the engine at a cheap price. Used engines usually suck.

[Mojo Electro]

16. A rebuilt engine

can be just as good as a new one.

For a 2000 Civic, heck with a well rebuilt engine with new rings, valves, gaskets, etc, and the cylinder head re-machined, you should be able to get another 150k out of that engine if the rest of the car holds up.

Heck depending on the mileage, you might not need to rebuild an engine. You can find one and drop it right in, that would be the cheapest. Sometimes you get lucky and find one with low miles that still has a good motor. (Maybe it was crashed and totaled when it still had low miles, that doesn't always mean the engine is bad)

(he might have hit something with the underside of the car, puncturing the oil pan. That is the lowest point on the engine, but that's neither here nor there, that engine is toast. Live and learn)

http://www.lowmileageparts.com/2000-HONDA-CIVIC-Engine-P304464.aspx?gclid=CKfXw5i7zrsCFcZZ7Aod8X4ARg#.UrxtrPvWv4Y

Here is a motor for that car for just under 1,000 that I found with just a cursory look, but by scouting junkyards I think you could probably do even better than that.

Edit: Having access to tools and a shop helps. (engine lift, etc) If you would have to pay a shop to do all the labor on this, it's new car time.

[steve2470]

18. thank you for the link !

I'm obviously going for the cheapest decent option here, to tide him over until he can buy his own vehicle as a young adult. I'm also relying on his brother's expertise.

As I said above, if the brother can't find a decent engine or it's way too much work for him to find one, then I'll just buy a rebuilt one with a warranty and have him install it. Thanks for the research and information, everyone ! One of the reasons I love DU ! Happy Holidays everyone.

[Warpy]

17. If the engine has far fewer miles on it, it might be the way to go

as long as front end damage isn't what landed the car in the junkyard. Sometimes the junkyards will even swap them out for you.

A rebuilt engine will likely get you more miles and will come with a warranty of some description but will cost more than one lifted out of a wreck and transplanted into your son's car.

Offhand, I'd say it was the drain plug that worked loose in your son's car. I can't think of much else that would drain the crank case completely.

[steve2470]

19. The drain plug was my first guess too nt

[doc03]

20. The head gasket blew on my nieces' car. They gave me a price of $1300 for a head and

$1200 for a low mileage used engine. They told me even if they replaced the heads there could be other damage to the engine. So I
went with the used engine, it's been a couple months, so far it runs great.
Oh a rebuilt engine would have been more than double that.

[petson]

22. Honda civic engine

Since Honda civic is quite an expensive car, it is preferable to get the car fixed from a trusted local garage or Honda company itself.

[madokie]

23. I would go with Used if it were me

Honda's I believe have a pretty good many years that the engines will interchange so the chances of finding a good low to mid mileage range one would be good. Over hauling or rebuilding can get expensive.
If it were me I'd make sure the engine in it is really trashed. I've known of many times where engines have lost oil and froze up to be rehabed for little cost, especially if you have someone who gets their hands dirty working on them to do the work. A lot of the times where the problem will be found is in the camshaft and if that is the case its pretty easy to get to and remove and clean up the metal transfer and be good to go again.
150 thousand miles on an engine of today is no where near wore out. Back in the '60s or '70s, that was a lot of miles but since then they've made great strides in engine technology, metals they use are different now as well as the rings that seal the pistons to the cylinder walls are different. biggest difference is metals and low tension, with emphasis on low tension.
I'd get the mechanic in the family to check out the top end of the engine to make sure it isn't the camshaft that is froze up if it was me.

I'm a 65 year old man who has had much oil and grease under my fingernails over the years and am considered a pretty good mechanic. Although I don't profess to be an auto mechanic

I'd say the honda engine can be brought back to life with little cost and still be good for many many miles yet.

[B Calm]

24. The car is 14 years old. What else is going to go wrong

with it? I would think twice before flushing money down the toilet.

[quaker bill]

25. Fix it, my car is 17

and it still runs fine. I occasionally do have to put it in the shop, but I paid cash for it and have never had a car payment. A new vehicle to replace it would run me 300 to 400 a month, and I would need to carry comprehensive insurance for another 150 to 200 (I am near 60 with a spotless driving record). In a bad year I spend the equivalent of 2 to 3 months of payments at the mechanic. A good year - just oil and gas.

Old cars will break and need to be fixed. New cars cost a ton of money. Getting comprehensive insurance for a young driver costs a ton more. You could get a new engine for less money than insurance for a young driver in a financed car. Have them check the CV axles while they are in there.

[sendero]

26. Lots of good advice on this thread..

... thought I would add my 2 cents:

You could:

1) Buy a rebuilt engine. These come in "long block" (Complete engine with head, carb, etc) or Short Block (Just the block with bearings/cam/piston rings etc. If the engine siezed from lack of oil the head etc might not be affected, just the moving parts, which is a short block. Either way this is going to be probably the most expensive option. But when you are done you should have an engine that you can get many miles out of.

2) Buy a used engine from a salvage yard vehicle. This will cost less but entails more risk since there is no way to really assess the condition of the engine. You might go through the whole process and then only get a couple year of life from the engine. Also, bringing an engine that has been sitting around for years back to life is a skill in and of itself, but one that your guy can probably handle

3) As noted by MineralMan, for a car of this age you might be better off just replacing the car. You would be able to sell the broken car for something, junk yards love parting out those Hondas, they are everywhere and many still on the road. All things considered, I would probably do this based on what I know about you situation. Of course, the car you have might be "special" and that complicates things

Good luck getting it going again. If there is any 14 year old car worth fixing, a Civic is it.

[Mnpaul]

28. An easy way to check the local junkyards

car-part.com

used engine prices in my area look like they are in the $800-$1000 range. You need to know the 6th digit of the VIN to find the proper engine.

[sweetapogee]

29. my thoughs

This is a 14 year old car. Put as little money into it to get it running as it has no resale value. I would look in the direction of a junk yard motor. A rebuilt long or short block will require a core trade which you cannot do since the core was seized.