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cali

(114,904 posts)
Sun Nov 17, 2013, 02:50 PM Nov 2013

Should we never praise Liberation Theology? Should we never praise its founder?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustavo_Guti%C3%A9rrez

should we discard everything Thomas Merton said, wrote and did?

Should we withhold any recognition or praise of the good things they've done?

I disagree, no doubt with some of the positions they hold and held, but I defy ANYONE to say that Liberation Theology hasn't done more good than not. I defy anyone to say that Gustavo Gutierrez hasn't and isn't, doing great good in this world.

I defy anyone to say that Merton didn't do great good and that his legacy still does just that- from issues of peace to environmental activism.

Pope Francis seems to share common ground with both of these men. Merton and Gutierrez are inspirations.

Liberation theology finds new welcome in Pope Francis’ Vatican

A progressive theological current that emphasizes the Catholic Church’s closeness to the poor and the marginalized but was subject to decades of hostility and censure is now finding increasing favor in the Vatican under Pope Francis.

<snip>

It’s a remarkable about-face for a movement that swelled in popularity but was later stamped out by the conservative pontificates of John Paul II and his longtime doctrinal czar, Benedict XVI.

<snip>

It affirmed that, rather then just focusing on seeking salvation in the afterlife, Catholics should act in the here and now against unjust societies that breed poverty and need.

In his seminal 1971 book, Gutierrez argued that the church should have a “preferential option for the poor,” following the example of Jesus, who chose to live mostly with poor and marginalized people.


<snip>

http://www.religionnews.com/2013/09/09/liberation-theology-finds-new-welcome-in-pope-francis-vatican/

Hell, Maybe Bill McKibben should have rejected the Thomas Merton Prize he was just awarded

The Thomas Merton Center gave its annual award to environmental author and climate change activist Bill McKibben Monday evening and publicly kicked off its campaign to get Pittsburgh City Council to divest all of its fossil fuel investments.

The Merton Center's campaign is an outgrowth of an international divestment campaign started a year ago by Mr. McKibben and 350.org, the global grass-roots organization he formed to combat global warming.

Mr. McKibben, who teaches at Middlebury College in Vermont, said the campaign has grown quickly. Divestiture groups have formed at 380 universities, including 10 that have moved to divest their fossil fuel holdings; several religious denominations, most prominently the United Church of Christ; and more than a dozen cities, including Seattle; Portland, Ore., and San Francisco.

"I'm very glad to see my friends at the Thomas Merton Center start this campaign," Mr. McKibben said at a news conference Monday afternoon in Pittsburgh. "Pittsburgh has cleaned up its air and water. But there is no way for Pittsburgh to continue to take care of its own environmental affairs without also recognizing what is happening elsewhere. If the globe continues to warm, Pittsburgh, like other cities, will pay a heavy price."

<snip>

The Thomas Merton Award has been given annually by the Garfield-based organization since its founding in 1972 to honor a nationally or internationally known activist with a lifelong passion of working toward the goal of a better world. Past winners of the award include Joan Baez (1975), Daniel Berrigan (1988), Molly Rush (1992), Studs Terkel (1998), Wendell Berry (1999), Noam Chomsky (2010) and Martin Sheen (2012).

Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/local/city/2013/11/05/Thomas-Merton-Award-goes-to-climate-change-activist/stories/#ixzz2kvdwoPvJ

http://thomasmertoncenter.org/-+


When I look at someone on the world stage, I try to see if they're doing more good through their words and actions than not. The Pope has a unique place on that stage. From what I've seen he's doing more good than ill- and that includes on LGBT issues:

Illinois lawmakers voted to approve a same-sex marriage bill on Tuesday in a historic vote that concludes over a year of intense lobbying from both sides, reports the Chicago Tribune.

The Tribune identified two key events this year that may have contributed to the affirmative vote -- first, the Supreme Court decision that ruled the Defense of Marriage Act as unconstitutional, and second, the tolerant remarks of Pope Francis about homosexuality, namely his statement "If someone is gay and he searches for the Lord and has good will, who am I to judge?"

The Pope's remarks have definitely made an impact, as some Catholic lawmakers who were initially undecided about the bill specifically cited his example when discussing their decision to support it. Rep. Linda Chapa LaVia (D-Ill.) commented, "As a Catholic follower of Jesus and the pope, Pope Francis, I am clear that our Catholic religious doctrine has at its core love, compassion and justice for all people."

The most notable statement came from Catholic Speaker of the House Michael Madigan, who echoed the Pope's words when explaining his support for the bill, stating, "For those that just happen to be gay — living in a very harmonious, productive relationship but illegal — who am I to judge that they should be illegal?"

<snip>

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/07/illinois-gay-marriage-pope-francis_n_4233711.html

Yes. Pope Francis had a positive influence on marriage equality in Illinois.

He asked: "Who am I to judge someone who is gay". And yes, that's a move forward for the Church.

Change in such a hidebound institution as the Catholic Church doesn't happen overnight, but moving from the heavy right wing Pope Benedict to Pope Francis is a significant change for the RCC. The causes Pope Francis is choosing to champion are causes that liberals have long embraced.

That's why there's so much liberal support for this Pope.



35 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Should we never praise Liberation Theology? Should we never praise its founder? (Original Post) cali Nov 2013 OP
"He asked: "Who am I to judge someone who is gay". And yes, that's a move forward for the Church." Humanist_Activist Nov 2013 #1
just as an FYI, no Pope has ever said anything like that. Just as an FYI cali Nov 2013 #2
They have not only said it, they actually put it in the Catechism of the Catholic Church... Humanist_Activist Nov 2013 #4
Which Pope(s) has/have said it? Link please?... DonViejo Nov 2013 #7
Here you go... Humanist_Activist Nov 2013 #9
Thank you for your response, Humanist_Activist.... DonViejo Nov 2013 #12
The only difference between any of the last 3 Popes is possibly tone, not substance... Humanist_Activist Nov 2013 #16
Too late...nt SidDithers Nov 2013 #34
It amazes me that the religious-test purists Jackpine Radical Nov 2013 #3
`thanks for putting that so well. corpodems often cali Nov 2013 #5
good point, cali arely staircase Nov 2013 #23
Would you say the same thing about populists who are race separatists or supremacists? n/t Humanist_Activist Nov 2013 #6
Those would be right-wing populists Jackpine Radical Nov 2013 #8
Would you praise them as good people like cali praises the Pope? Humanist_Activist Nov 2013 #10
I wouldnt praise Ron Paul for being a good person, for example. Jackpine Radical Nov 2013 #11
Pope Francis called same sex marriage(and families) an "attack on God", called same sex parenting... Humanist_Activist Nov 2013 #14
I think he's misguided. Jackpine Radical Nov 2013 #15
Really? Would you extend the same courtesy to a person who opposed... Humanist_Activist Nov 2013 #17
very good post nt arely staircase Nov 2013 #22
The Pope is exactly the same as Pat Robertson, save for sartorial style and a rosary. Bluenorthwest Nov 2013 #31
This belongs in the religion group BainsBane Nov 2013 #13
ah after bragging on you in another thread you get one wrong arely staircase Nov 2013 #19
I understand that. BainsBane Nov 2013 #20
cali actually digs the pope arely staircase Nov 2013 #21
In Argentina the Pope was vocally opposed to Liberation Theology. Bluenorthwest Nov 2013 #26
I know he isn't arely staircase Nov 2013 #28
What priorities has he changed? None. This OP equates Francis, enemy of liberation theolgoy Bluenorthwest Nov 2013 #30
GD is a free-for-all... SidDithers Nov 2013 #35
the sandinistas were very closely associated with this wing of the church arely staircase Nov 2013 #18
Democracy Now! On Francis the conservative and his opposition to Liberation Theology Bluenorthwest Nov 2013 #25
and yet now his leadership seems to have moved toward arely staircase Nov 2013 #27
Can you specify any actual changes that he has instituted that reflect his 'movement toward the Bluenorthwest Nov 2013 #29
Francis actual words about Liberation Theology: Bluenorthwest Nov 2013 #24
the church needs to become much more liberal! gopiscrap Nov 2013 #32
And the papal PR blitz continues... SidDithers Nov 2013 #33
 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
1. "He asked: "Who am I to judge someone who is gay". And yes, that's a move forward for the Church."
Sun Nov 17, 2013, 02:54 PM
Nov 2013

Uhm, no it isn't, in fact it is ALREADY church doctrine, the Church has no problem with homosexuals as long as they don't act on their attractions. Who is the Pope to judge chaste gay people?

Also, just an FYI, this Pope has spoken against liberation theology.

 

cali

(114,904 posts)
2. just as an FYI, no Pope has ever said anything like that. Just as an FYI
Sun Nov 17, 2013, 02:58 PM
Nov 2013

he's obviously moved from not supporting liberation theology to supporting its most basic tenets- both in words and actions.

 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
4. They have not only said it, they actually put it in the Catechism of the Catholic Church...
Sun Nov 17, 2013, 03:02 PM
Nov 2013

why don't you LEARN about the institution and the man who leads it before you become a fan?

 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
9. Here you go...
Sun Nov 17, 2013, 03:13 PM
Nov 2013
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm

Relevent section:

Chastity and homosexuality

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.


Of course, outside of this sentence, the rest of it is homophobic bullshit that, and this is important, the Pope upholds.

DonViejo

(60,536 posts)
12. Thank you for your response, Humanist_Activist....
Sun Nov 17, 2013, 03:31 PM
Nov 2013

You're correct that is Church teaching but, I can't think of any Pope that even came close to making a public statement about it. I do recall John Paul made some comment to the media about "gays are at the heart of the Church" while on a flight to visit the U.S. but, any hopes for a change in approach were quickly dashed when his pit-bull, then Cardinal Ratzinger, came out with the "intrinsically evil" horse crap. The Church may some day have to change its tune on many teachings but it isn't occurring right now on LGBT issues.

 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
16. The only difference between any of the last 3 Popes is possibly tone, not substance...
Sun Nov 17, 2013, 04:10 PM
Nov 2013

people confuse the two. Even Pope Benedict, who was rather crass, didn't contradict the part of the Catechism I quoted, either in word or deed.

Jackpine Radical

(45,274 posts)
3. It amazes me that the religious-test purists
Sun Nov 17, 2013, 02:59 PM
Nov 2013

will hang up on one or a few issues that are very dear to them (abortion, LGBT) and absolutely castigate the religious leader in question, no matter how enlightened his (yes, usually his) stance is on other issues: Pope Francis, Jim Wallis--

--and then go on to demand that we swallow our gorge and vote for some highly compromised candidate just because they are "right" (by which I mean "left&quot on those issues despite the fact that she is they are a corporate sellout who is hastening us on our way to environmental and social perdition.

Hell yes, I side with the left on those cultural issues, but I see no gain to be had from spitting in the face of someone who is an ally on the other 80% of my agenda.

 

cali

(114,904 posts)
5. `thanks for putting that so well. corpodems often
Sun Nov 17, 2013, 03:03 PM
Nov 2013

support issues like marriage equality- though quite a few who piously post are late to the party- but they are conservative and corporate on economic justice issues and environmental issues.

arely staircase

(12,482 posts)
23. good point, cali
Sun Nov 17, 2013, 04:54 PM
Nov 2013

This year's vpride parade in Houston was full of floats from banks with banners like "wells fargo supports LGBT rights." I think that is agood thing but it doesn't mean I am ready to embrace wells fargo as a humanitarian organization. But I genuinely applaud them forn their support for LGBT rights.

Jackpine Radical

(45,274 posts)
8. Those would be right-wing populists
Sun Nov 17, 2013, 03:09 PM
Nov 2013

with whom I have very little in common.

Even there, though, I could see forming a "fellow-traveller" alliance for some specific purpose. For example, a libertarian who advocates legalization of weed and opposes the TPP and needless wars. I would join with them to fight on those specific issues and then bitterly oppose them on most other issues.

 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
10. Would you praise them as good people like cali praises the Pope?
Sun Nov 17, 2013, 03:17 PM
Nov 2013

What I see are practically uncritical praises for people that are BAD people, yes we might be able to work with them for one specific goal, but don't mistake them for being friends.

Jackpine Radical

(45,274 posts)
11. I wouldnt praise Ron Paul for being a good person, for example.
Sun Nov 17, 2013, 03:29 PM
Nov 2013

However, I don't see Pope Francis or Jim Wallis as bad people. Misguided on many issues by my lights, but not bad, and I think the world will be better off overall for the work of both of them. I think the Pope will leave behind a more humane Church than the one he came into. People's lives will be better than if another Pope Maledict had been elected.

The Church will still not be an enlightened institution, but it will be better than it was, and, like it or not, it determines a great deal of what happens in the lives of many millions of ordinary people.

Pope Maledict XVI was a bad person. Pat Robberson is a bad person. I perceive a vast difference between them and a Francis or a Wallis; perhaps you don't. An please note that I am sure I will agree with you on many of the faults you find with both. I am just assigning somewhat different weights to the considerations we are placing on the moral balance.

 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
14. Pope Francis called same sex marriage(and families) an "attack on God", called same sex parenting...
Sun Nov 17, 2013, 04:02 PM
Nov 2013

child abuse, and you don't think he's a bad person?

 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
17. Really? Would you extend the same courtesy to a person who opposed...
Sun Nov 17, 2013, 04:19 PM
Nov 2013

miscegenation, and/or racial integration?

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
31. The Pope is exactly the same as Pat Robertson, save for sartorial style and a rosary.
Sun Nov 17, 2013, 06:15 PM
Nov 2013

If you actually saw differences 'vast differences' you'd be able to mention those differences. Like Wallis, all three raise money by slamming gay people in the mass media. They all three oppose equal rights for some minorities, all three are opposed to choice in reproductive rights and insist that the State should dictate to women what they do with their own bodies.
Now about this 'moral balance' you speak of and what should have weight upon it. Mel Brooks, an actual holy person, said this about comedy and tragedy: 'Tragedy is when I cut my finger, comedy is when you fall down an open manhole and die'. Mel's point is that things which happen to others are not felt with the same painful intensity as things which happen to ourselves. You do not see anti gay attacks as important because they are not attacks upon you. To you, it's not a thing to 'assign weight to in the moral balance'. Of course a cross word about you or your own would weigh on your balance heavily. Do unto others is how another guy put it.

arely staircase

(12,482 posts)
19. ah after bragging on you in another thread you get one wrong
Sun Nov 17, 2013, 04:28 PM
Nov 2013

Liberation theology was a very important political force in latin america in the eghties and shapes the political landscape of the region to this day

BainsBane

(53,003 posts)
20. I understand that.
Sun Nov 17, 2013, 04:34 PM
Nov 2013

But the OP doesn't deal with that. People are ignoring the SOP of GD. The problem with posting about the pope here is it invites the usual chorus of anti-Catholic stuff I'm beyond sick of seeing. If this were about the politics of Liberation Theology in Latin America, that would be another story.

arely staircase

(12,482 posts)
21. cali actually digs the pope
Sun Nov 17, 2013, 04:38 PM
Nov 2013

As do I. But we can disagree on where this should be posted. Even if it were about lib theology"s impact on LA politics one could say it belings in the LA forum.

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
26. In Argentina the Pope was vocally opposed to Liberation Theology.
Sun Nov 17, 2013, 05:48 PM
Nov 2013

He is not a Liberation Theologian and in fact led the opposition to it, just as he led the opposition to gay rights there.
To claim he is a liberation theologian who favors equality for gays is to tell a huge lie.

arely staircase

(12,482 posts)
28. I know he isn't
Sun Nov 17, 2013, 05:53 PM
Nov 2013

But he is changing the church's prorities toward the christian responsibility to the poor and criticicizing the capitalist system that exploits the poor.

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
30. What priorities has he changed? None. This OP equates Francis, enemy of liberation theolgoy
Sun Nov 17, 2013, 06:03 PM
Nov 2013

to Liberation Theology itself as well as to the founders of that movement. Facts are just facts, arely. Can put lipstick on a pig, as they say, it remains a pig. Francis has many quotes against liberation theology in very specific terms.
Francis speaks hate against my people. Those who defend him are defending that.

arely staircase

(12,482 posts)
18. the sandinistas were very closely associated with this wing of the church
Sun Nov 17, 2013, 04:26 PM
Nov 2013

The contras and the right wingers were aligned with the reactionary conservative wing of the church. The nicaraguan civil war had many more religious dimensions to it than Reagans fight against godless communism. I admire liberation theology.

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
25. Democracy Now! On Francis the conservative and his opposition to Liberation Theology
Sun Nov 17, 2013, 05:44 PM
Nov 2013

During the military dictatorship in Argentina, the new pope openly criticized liberation theology’s combination of religious teachings and calls for social justice. His social conservative streak continued when he was elevated to cardinal in Argentina. In 2010, he called the Argentine government’s legalization of gay marriage "an attempt to destroy God’s plan" and opposed adoption by gay couples. We discuss Pope Francis’ social conservatism with Ernesto Semán, a historian at New York University and former reporter for two Argentine newspapers, and with Argentine journalist Horacio Verbitsky.
http://www.democracynow.org/2013/3/14/a_social_conservative_pope_francis_led

arely staircase

(12,482 posts)
27. and yet now his leadership seems to have moved toward
Sun Nov 17, 2013, 05:49 PM
Nov 2013

the goals, ifb not the methods of Liberation Theology. I support and pray for him at mass weekly.

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
29. Can you specify any actual changes that he has instituted that reflect his 'movement toward the
Sun Nov 17, 2013, 05:57 PM
Nov 2013

goals' of Liberation Theology? No, of course not, because he has not done so. Francis has long said that Liberation Theology has problems with ideological 'deviations' although he likes the bits about the poor, which are of course just Jesus Materials anyway.
Claiming that up is down because you want to praise Francis is not going to work. This man has been part of the world scene for many years. While you and cali never heard of him until he became Superstar Pontiff, many of us have been aware of him because we have ties to Argentina and because we remain aware of the enemies of equality around the world, and Francis has long been a devoted enemy of progress and equality.

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
24. Francis actual words about Liberation Theology:
Sun Nov 17, 2013, 05:35 PM
Nov 2013

"After the collapse of “real socialism,” these currents of thought were plunged into confusion. Incapable of either radical reformulation or new creativity, they survived by inertia, even if there are still some today who, anachronistically, would like to propose it again."
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/349432/pope-francis-and-liberation-theology

The claim that Francis is a liberation theologian is laughable to anyone who knows his past in Argentina, just as the claims that he is pro gay are laughable to anyone who knows his past. Those who want to pretend he is what he is not are engaging in a vile game. To equate this guy to Merton is an abuse of Thomas Merton. To claim that criticism of this bigoted old man is to say 'no praise for liberation theology' is an abuse of liberation theology.
Francis has said that marriage equality is an 'attack on God's plan that comes from the author of evil'. He says adoption by gay parents 'discriminates against the child'. He got famous by attacking gay people and liberation theology. Anyone who can read can learn the truth.
It is against the SOP of GD to post these religiously based aggressions against those who do not fulfill Francis' religious dogmas. It needs to stop.

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