When the "young and healthy" become the "old and infirm."

[Cerridwen]

Don't want to pay into a system because you don't need it?

Fine. There goes the fire department since your house isn't on fire...right now.

There goes the emergency room since you aren't currently having a heart attack or a sucking chest wound.

Here's the point: you want it there when YOU need it, you get to pay for it when OTHERS need it so it's there for YOU when YOU need it.

We all pay into that which benefits us all; whether now or later.

In spite of what you think, none of us is (yet) immortal or safe from this thing called Life.

[leftstreet]

1. At least the 'old and infirm' get Medicare. For now n/t

[Cerridwen]

6. I wonder how many of them would give up Medicare

rather than be "old and infirm." Based on your post it's almost as if you envy them their Medicare. Please tell me I read that wrong.

Don't worry; you'll be there some day (if you're lucky), and some of them will have managed to fight to keep Medicare viable and in place.

[leftstreet]

11. ??

Based on your post it's almost as if you envy them their Medicare.

How do you know I'm not on it? Not sure what made you personalize your statement, but I was referring to the fact that Medicare is single payer. The ACA is not. You made a comparison that can't really be made. If you want to encourage non-seniors to participate in the ACA, that's fine

[Cerridwen]

16. That's why I asked. I wasn't sure.

I didn't personalize as I'm not on Medicare...yet.

I hate the ACA. I wanted HR676 that was an expansion of Medicare and it included dental, mental health, and vision. I'm of this, apparently weird, opinion that eyes and teeth are part of the human body as well as the brain which might then require mental health treatment if it wasn't operating at optimum capacity.

One of the things that would and could destroy that vision is the "it's not happening to me why do I have to participate" world view.

Sorry if I didn't communicate that well. Text on a screen doesn't have much dimension.

[Rozlee]

54. What Medicare and the ACA both need is

provisions for the care of patients with dementia and Alzheimer's. Right now, there is no health care aside from medication and limited home health. Patients can get on Medicaid if they are means-tested, but our income isn't low enough to qualify and my husband, who was diagnosed with Alzheimer's a few months ago, is deteriorating quickly. I'm trying to take care of him here at home, but I'm barely five feet tall and weigh less a hundred pounds. My husband is six-foot-six and weighs over 200 lbs. His Medicare and Tricare both don't pay for the around-the-clock help we'll need soon, or, heaven help us, a care facility. I'm looking to sell a couple of acres of land; at least we're not destitute and have some resources. But, with healthcare out-of-pocket costs what they are, that will disappear really quick. Something's got to be done. My husband's 20 years older than I am, but the flood of baby boomers is coming hard on his heels and our country's going to be going through a terrific crisis if families are hit hard without ways to care for aging parents and spouses. It's astounding that our nation's major health care plans don't have provisions for our elderly citizens' most devastating, and common, age-related neurological diseases.

[elleng]

2. and who wants to pay taxes for schools,

my kids have been out of school for years!

[Cerridwen]

3. Thank you. I have no children.

I want educated children who will become educated adults in the world I inhabit.

I'm selfish that way.

I want doctors who want to heal; engineers who know how to design; garbage collectors to keep plague at bay; drivers who know how; and so on and so forth. Regardless of the "level" at which someone is employed, I want them happy and well trained as it benefits me.

I'm selfish that way.

I want healthy people around me so I don't get sick.

I'm selfish that way.

[elleng]

5. Yup, and I want a fire department!!!

[Cerridwen]

8. You "socialist" you! LOL

[elleng]

12. Yes, I'll admit it!!!

[Squinch]

15. Well not me, dammit. And take down that stop light! I'm not using it right now!

Quit repairing the roads that aren't between me and my work or my shopping! You people are SO SELFISH!

Oh, wait. Nevermind. That's moronic...

[Moostache]

55. Agreed 100%...there are things that the profit motive cannot help.

I also want to live in a civil society and not some nightmare version of Mad Max or the Wild West.
I want schools because its inherently the only way humanity can survive the damage that we have wrought on this planet already, to say nothing of the continuing damage we do daily without abatement.

I want these things far, far more than I want B2 bombers, Stealth Fighters, Joint Strike Planes, Aircraft Carriers, missiles, bombs and wars of choice. I want things too...I just don't believe in throwing temper tantrums when I don't get them...otherwise I'd be Republican!

[Posteritatis]

13. Guhhhh, that's probably my biggest political pet peeve

The year my peers and I graduated from high school most of them immediately became fierce opponents of anything involving education funding.

It's actually a significant problem up here; provincial governments have near autonomy in education, and provincial conservative parties tend to be the "hell with anyone under thirty" types, so we'll occasionally get feedback loops of a bunch of "I graduated, so why should I care?" types voting them into office, followed by the government gutting education because, hey, they aren't getting votes from that crowd anyway, etc., etc., etc.

{string of obscenities}

[elleng]

14. Very hard for me to understand such self-centeredness,

or selfishness,, or just plain IGNORANCE!

[Phentex]

18. Why, that's the backbone of

being a republican!

They don't want to pay for something they might not get. They don't want anybody getting more than what they get. They don't want somebody taking away something they earned. They don't support anyone who does not make the same choices they make.

I think you get it.

[aggiesal]

51. Good point . . .

I live in San Diego and I've had plenty of conservative friends tell me
that they vote against anything dealing with bonds, taxes, or anything
else dealing with the school system, since they no longer have kids in
the system. So why should they have to pay?

More often then not these people attended public schools, and somehow
it escapes them that others paid for their education.

[Posteritatis]

4. Not to mention us young-and-healthies can still wind up young-and-maimed or something.

Physics respects youth no more than youth respects physics, after all.

[Cerridwen]

7. Good point. Thank you for adding it.

There is a reason I consider myself currently healthy.

[Posteritatis]

9. It's been on my mind since discovering a chair in the dark with considerable force last week

"Minor fractures" don't constitute "maimed" but they certainly make one aware they've been injured.

[Squinch]

17. Owowowowowowowowow!!!!!

That hurts just thinking about it.

[Cerridwen]

19. First, I must ask your forgiveness.

When I read your post I laughed. Not at your injury but at the wonderful way you described it. You painted a very visible picture. (I like redundancy.)

A former co-worker, a young, athletic, woman who was in training to run her first marathon placed the small toe of one of her feet forcibly against a heavy suitcase in the hall in the middle of the night. That was essentially how she described it. It was funny and sad at the same time. I read the same in your post.

For whatever it is worth, you have my sympathy for your injury. Please take care of yourself. Minor things can become major if you treat them as minor. I swear some part of our bodies lay in wait until they can get even with us for our lack of respect of them.

[Posteritatis]

21. I laughed after I finished stripping the kitchen walls' paint with words alone

("Sir, please! You're upsetting the sailors!&quot

It's an Intrinsically Ridiculous Injury, like the rake-to-the-face routine or getting attacked by ducks or something. The fact that that's what screws me up for awhile when I've fenced for some years without a problem just adds to the silliness.

I'll be limpy for a couple weeks (and hyperaware of furniture placement in the dark) in any case and am otherwise fine. Just musing at the whole instance of my body going "LOL, you win at failure! Now stop that!" routine for the next little while.

[Cerridwen]

24. Really? That was all I needed to get that

gawd-awful, HUGE, red-rose wallpaper off my mom's walls? It might have been worth it.

Not only do I understand, several of my toes are cringing in remembrance. A couple of my toe-nails are yellowing in defiance.

Please tell me when you reference fencing you don't mean chain-link. Yeah, that'll throw your balance for a while but it will teach you to compensate. Ooo, don't tell anyone. I looked for the silver lining.

[Posteritatis]

31. Nah, the pointy-object variety

Some years of that and a few more in longswordsmanship; great for balance, body awareness, reflexes (oh god and how at times), appreciating just how awesome helmets and masks are when you hear a "CLONK" sound two inches from your face, and apparently utterly ineffective in preventing you from stumbling into furniture blindly into furniture that hasn't moved in two years!

Balance in all things, I suppose - even imbalance.

[ScreamingMeemie]

10. I am beginning to think there are a lot

of people who say they want single payer without realizing what it is.

[Cerridwen]

20. Yeah. It's like people supporting ACA

but being against Obamacare.

Perhaps it's time to restart that ad campaign that said a brain is a terrible thing to waste.

Rhetorically speaking, when the hell did it become sinful to have a functioning brain?

[ScreamingMeemie]

39. I cannot believe it sometimes here.

99% of those who are upset haven't even read what preventative care means.

[Cerridwen]

44. I can believe it.

Ten years some have posted their r/w talking points here but it was "polite" and so was accepted because hatred dressed in manners is okay.

Impolite against hatred is "bad manners."

Bullies have survived on this board for years but received a pass because they followed the rules of etiquette. Anyone so impolite as to point out they were lying were banned.

If you (the generic you not you specifically) can't tell the difference between hatred and manners, then our society is fucked.

So long as intolerance and hatred wear the clothes of propriety and etiquette it's okay for hatred and intolerance.

Yeah.

We're fucked.

We can't see beyond the surface.

[Fumesucker]

22. What are the deductibles and copays when the fire department responds to your call? n/t

[Phentex]

23. Remember, in some places if you have not paid your fee...

they let your house burn down. I would imagine that cost is very high.

[Fumesucker]

26. If you had a $5K deductible on top of your fire department premium?

Would you be as likely to call the fire department in the event a small fire started in your kitchen?

Or would you wait and try to handle it yourself with your little fire extinguisher until the fire got too big for you to handle because you don't actually have a spare $5K laying around for a "just in case" sort of situation?

[Phentex]

28. I have a spare 5K. Doesn't everyone?

[Fumesucker]

30. Well, everyone except *those* people

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/19/us-usa-survey-paycheck-idUSBRE88I1BE20120919

(Reuters) - More than two-thirds of Americans are now living paycheck to paycheck, according to a survey released on Wednesday by the American Payroll Association.

The survey of 30,600 people found that 68 percent said it would be somewhat difficult or very difficult if their paychecks were delayed for a week. These results show Americans are still struggling with the recession's effects, the association said.

"This study clearly shows that Americans are finding it hard to save," said Dan Maddux, executive director of the San Antonio-based association of payroll managers.

In 2006, 65 percent of respondents reported living paycheck to paycheck, a figure that shot up to 72 percent in 2010 in the wake of the recession.

[Phentex]

32. I would gladly pay more to put out their fires, too...

even a little tiny kitchen fire. I think firefighters should be paid well and I would not let a home burn to the ground because someone did not pay their fee...ahem, their deductible.

Edited to change the word our to out.

[Cerridwen]

25. It depends where you live.

In some places it's covered by your taxes. In others, you get the full bill.

I prefer the return on investment of my taxes rather than the full bill.

You?

[Fumesucker]

27. You pay a premium and then pay a portion of the bill before the FD will actually start the pumps?

I don't think I've ever heard of that arrangement.

[Cerridwen]

29. A link to a story that

exemplifies what I am saying.

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2011/12/07/9272989-firefighters-let-home-burn-over-75-fee-again

SOUTH FULTON, Tenn. -- Firefighters stood by and watched a Tennessee house burn to the ground earlier this week because the homeowners didn't pay the annual subscription fee for fire service.

This is but one example. For more examples, please see the history of fire departments in the early US and how properties burned as private fire departments let them burn while arguing who had received payment to protect said property.

[Gravitycollapse]

33. The early history of the US is not exactly a prime example of modern considerations.

As opposed to in the very distant past when houses had tags on the front indicating their membership in a specific fire department, that is no longer the case.

Most fire departments will not watch a house burn to the ground. You've shown a single strange example.

[Cerridwen]

35. It is when the current political luddites

are trying to take us back to that time in history in which government services are privatized. That is exactly what privatization of fire departments look like.

[Gravitycollapse]

36. Yes, but your contention that such antiquated practices are common is false.

It's decidedly uncommon. In fact, I've never heard of a modern example outside of that story you posted.

[Cerridwen]

37. Good for you.

I'm happy you're comfortable in denying what is happening in the age of privatization. Ignorance is bliss.

I posted that example as "but one example."

The overall topic of this thread is "we must all hang together or we must surely all hang."

I'm finished with your derail.

[Fumesucker]

34. I was involved in some of those DU threads

On the side of tax supported Fire Departments that don't demand payment from someone before they'll start the pumps and don't demand payment or partial payment for services rendered afterwards.

[Demo_Chris]

38. So you propose mandating the young and poor support the expenses of the old and wealthy?

After all, you suggest, one day they too might be old and wealthy and then they can get the young and poor to support them too!

You do understand that these young and healthy people you are so casually pilfering were basically screwed before this ever passed into law, right? We exported their jobs because it was fantastic for our 401K's, we ran the cost of education into the stratosphere so they're either uneducated or buried in debt, we're handing them a 20 TRILLION dollar national debt because we didn't feel like paying taxes, they're living at home drowning in bills and working at Walmart and Target or the corner gas station, and you think THEY are the ones who should eagerly sacrifice their last $50 so your healthcare costs can be a smidge lower?

Seriously?

And if they get sick, what then? You think they are saving up a multi-thousand deductible on their part-time job at Starbucks? And if they have kids of their own, what about them? Maybe their kids should go without heat or clothes or Christmas, because fuck them -- paying that mandate is more important than some silly holiday anyway. They better pay, you need their money to keep your rates affordable!

Right?

Because that's what you're saying. You want their money. They don't have any to spare, they're the most fucked generation in our nation's history, but that's okay. You want their money. The insurance companies want their money. And that's the only thing that matters.

[Cerridwen]

40. I said "old and infirm." Not sure where you got

"old and wealthy." Unless you're one of those embarrassed millionaires. (google or duckduckgo it.)

Read about the "baby boomers" to see about getting "fucked" as you so eloquently put it.

You won't like it. I can assure you. The baby boomers paid into the SS early and that money was pilfered by the ruling class. You are so going to love it when you find out they do the same to you.

There is an old quote about hanging together or hanging. When you find it; keep following that thread and you'll learn what it means and why it is important we "hang together."

Until the time that you learn...good luck. Keep reinventing the wheel and re-learning the lessons of history.

When you are one of the "old and infirm," I hope you remember this. Over and over and over and over and....

[Demo_Chris]

57. I'm not exactly young myself, it's my daughter who's money you want...

In any case, I assume you are familiar with age as a factor in wealth distribution in this country. For those who are unaware, basically the wealth in this country is highly concentrated, and young people are the group least likely to have any of it. This is nothing new. All else being equal they have had less time to accumulate wealth. Sadly, all things are not equal, and young people today have not only had less time to accumulate wealth, they have had less opportunity.

FAR less opportunity.

With the result that in 2012, according to a PEW study, 36% of young people between the ages of 18 and 31 were living at home with their parents -- a new record. The reason for this is simple: they cannot afford to do otherwise. It is this demographic, the group for whom $50 is a lot of money, that the OP so casually taps for cash.

Which is why I said the OP was mandating that the young and poor support the healthcare costs for the old and affluent. It might have been more fair to say comparatively affluent, but this does nothing to mitigate the point I made. A point, I noticed, that you carefully tried to sidestep.

For a contract to be fair, both parties must receive something of comparable value. But in this case you have nothing of value to offer. If young poor people could afford to take advantage of their mandated insurance policies there would be no benefit to you or to the system. It's designed to take their money in exchange for little in return. It's DESIGNED that way. You get their last few bucks, and the promise you offer in return is that one day, when they are older, they can do it to someone else. And all that's fine, perhaps, if you think regressive taxes are fine, but don't act like you are doing them a favor or they somehow owe it to the system. Lightening their wallet isn't lightening their load, and their load is heavy enough as it is.

[TDale313]

53. Pretty much the whole concept of the mandate

and health insurance if you insist the insurance companies cover pre-existing conditions. Spread the risk, get the younger, healthier people in the pool so sicker (often older) people can be covered at a rate they can semi-afford. That's the theory anyway. Now, frankly, I would rather have seen single payer. But yes, the ACA and insurance in general is based on getting lower risk people in the pool, which helps defray some of the costs for those who are sick or higher risk.

[Demo_Chris]

59. Yes. It is designed to siphon the last few bucks from the young and poor...

In order to feed it into the system to subsidize the old and affluent.

If young people could afford to take advantage of the insurance they are forced to buy there would be no net benefit to the system. By design they have to invest more than they take out. But in this case, we are tasking the poor to fund the comparatively wealthy. And worse, for them the normal insurance gamble does not even apply. They are statistically unlikely to need the insurance they are forced to buy, and if they do need it it offers no benefit because they cannot afford to take advantage of it. More, they don't have any assets for insurance to protect.

This has all been said before. My objection here is to the tone. Pilfer the young and poor if you must, but don't pretend this is all part of some grand social contract or a great deal for this generation we have completely screwed over even without this added burden. I think of it like this:

The transition to independence and adulthood is like crossing a river. When we were young we discovered a bridge had been built across that river by people who had come before us. We just waltzed on across. But we didn't bother to maintain that bridge, we ripped the deck up and sold it for scrap. And now a new generation, our kids or grandkids, have reached that bridge. They're trying to crawl across the unstable wreckage that remains, they want to start their lives and have families of their own. And we're waiting on the far side demanding that they pay us a toll.

[TDale313]

60. we need single payer. It's that simple.

I'm not gonna defend the mandate, or the fact that we're still stuck with sucky private insurance companies running our health care system. I hated those facts when the ACA was passed. I will disagree with the fact that those benefitting are relatively wealthy. A lot of 50 somethings found themselves, through no fault their own, unemployed in a shitty economy, ill, and uninsurable. That shouldn't happen. Also, although they'll use it statistically less, young people should have decent health insurance. The ACA has problems, but it's a step. The other systemic issues with our economy are gonna have to be addressed. But not on the backs of the poor or middle class of any age. They've sacrificed enough already. For decades, their standard of living has declined while the top 1 to 2 per cent robbed us fuckin' blind. And now they want to shred what little social safety net (ss, medicare, medicaid) we have left. Hell no.

[Demo_Chris]

62. I support single payer. Obamacare has some fantastic provisions...

It will be a tremendous help for millions of people. My concern is that in our feverish defense of the thing we are shoving aside the millions it will not help or will actually hurt. Right now, our party is not saying let's get to work helping them, they are denying they even exist.

And sorry, but mandates are against everything I believe in as a liberal. It's corporatism and nothing more.

[Blaukraut]

41. Several generations ago, it was understood that the young took care of the old

Times may have changed, and the ways to care for those in need may have changed as well, but the needs have not. We cannot afford to become selfish because society does not thrive that way. It never occurred to me to NOT pay my share into health insurance when I was young and healthy. It never crossed my mind that my social security contributions would be put into my personal retirement account to use at my retirement. When did we become so selfish?

[Cerridwen]

42. In response to your last question:

In the 1980s when it became popular to be racist, sexist, ageist, and generally allow our inner "devils" to take control.

You have posted what I think.

Thank you.

We take care of us or we die.

If we can't see how we're all connected, we are doomed.

Again, thank you for your post.

[Blaukraut]

43. You're so welcome!

It saddens me to see how so many of us fall through the cracks of poverty, race, old age, gender, and we're all too busy to worry about ourselves to notice.

[Cerridwen]

45. You and I don't.

You and I might be okay. I have no crystal ball that tells me.

I hope for you what you wish for others and yourself.

I hope for me what I wish for others and myself.

It was once called the Golden Rule.

May you and I "Live long and prosper" based on the "Golden Rule" we espouse. (I'm a nerd. I hope that didn't "kill" this post for you.)

[Blaukraut]

48. I know at least hubby and I are, and will be, ok. Not sure about our girls down the road.

About going Nerd: Are you kidding? I have Nimoy, Shat, and many other Trek alumni on my twitter feed!
And LLAP to you and yours as well

[Cerridwen]

50. Lol. Heh. I have a Tribble(tm).

There was a Star Trek convention here in Las Vegas, NV some weeks ago. I have an animated Tribble and pictures showing it attacking Klingons. It needs a skin transplant as the fur could be much softer. It'll happen in the next few months.

I am such a nerd. But...I don't have a uniform nor do I go in character. I save that for the SCA and my 12th Century persona. (SCA. Society for Creative Anachronism.) Pre-Norman, Irish, Celtic in case you wondered.

I do not speak Klingon.

[JAbuchan08]

46. You never know when you may need it

I certainly didn't know I had a brain cyst developing for 10+ years, but I was glad I had insurance. The monthly payments sure seem worth it now - even if I questioned the wisdom of paying them at times. The insurance has paid out many times over what I've paid in. I should note that I am relatively young - 31 - and reasonably healthy. I am also looking forward to some healthcare reform to go with the the ACA's health insurance reform, because even with insurance brain surgery is expensive and my medical bills far outstrip my income.

Edited to note that I'm actually 31

[Cerridwen]

47. I hope you are okay.

Are you okay? (Sorry. This is a public board. Private message if you need to talk.)

My sincerest wish is that you receive all the treatment you require. I don't give a shit about the political aspect.

I was fortunate recently, to have a couple of DU members who responded to my pain. I will try to pay it forward if you need such. If you don't; I will give you your space.

I hope you are okay.

Regardless of the politics.

I hope you are okay.

[JAbuchan08]

49. I don't mind talking about it

Everything seems to be in working order, and I feel a bit sharper than I did before the surgery. What's funny is how obvious it seems now that I had something wrong with my cognitive functions when (at the time) I just put it down to a lack of brain exercise. And yes, I am not a prolific poster by any means, but I mentioned my healthcare related financial worries and quite a few DUers responded with helpful comments.

[Cerridwen]

52. I'm happy to read that

"quite a few DUers responded with helpful comments."

If you ever need another anonymous person supporting you, please send me a message through the DU email system. Sometimes anonymous feels safer. I think you know what I mean.

I'm good at listening and empathizing.

I'm happy to read you are doing well now.

Take care of you.

We need more of you.

Incoming smiley...

[Spitfire of ATJ]

56. I know a right winger who died not too long ago and never made out a will....

His kids had to fight to get the family photos out of the house before it went into probate.

[1000words]

58. When they privatize the fire department, your analogy will be appropriate.

There is a difference between a public service and a consumer product.

[Skittles]

61. I have no kids but I like being around healthy, educated people

I'm funny that way