Dear DU Woman--stop throwing back shots of Rum and you won't get raped....

[trumad]

So say's Ruth Marcus of the Washington Post:

Yeah---she throws in the obligatory men should be punished meme--- but you knows---youse woman's throwing back multiple rum shots puts youse alls in that situation. Oh and I especially love her dig at feminists. (Regime?)

<snip>
Excuse me, but no one’s suggesting that our daughters should be holed up in the library studying every night, forswearing any semblance of a social life. Yoffe (disclosure: she’s a close friend) is saying that the responsible advice is the one that I’ve been trying to impart for years to my now-teenage daughters: When you drink (because, let’s be serious, they’re not waiting until 21), don’t drink too much.

Consider the female Naval Academy midshipman who started with seven shots of coconut rum and woke up in an off-campus “football house” wondering what had happened. (Answer: Sexual encounters with three midshipmen, two of whom are being court-martialed.

<snip>
The second point is the regime of feminist political correctness that chills discussion.

“A misplaced fear of blaming the victim has made it somehow unacceptable to warn inexperienced young women that when they get wasted, they are putting themselves in potential peril,” Yoffe wrote. “Young women are getting a distorted message that their right to match men drink for drink is a feminist issue. The real feminist message should be that when you lose the ability to be responsible for yourself, you drastically increase the chances that you will attract the kinds of people who .?.?. don’t have your best interest at heart.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/ruth-marcus-missing-the-point-on-binge-drinking/2013/10/24/56c8a70a-3ce0-11e3-a94f-b58017bfee6c_story.html?hpid=z2

[trumad]

1. .

For the morning crowd.

[Le Taz Hot]

2. I've been a feminist for 40+ years now

and I can honestly say I've never argued the point that women have the right to "match men drink for drink". The POINT, dear, is that a woman should be able to drink what she chooses, walk down the middle of the street nekkid and NOBODY HAS THE RIGHT TO RAPE HER. That's the message, which you seem to have missed.

[LisaLynne]

3. Well said. nt

[cleanhippie]

4. You are, of course, 100% correct.

I think that "the point" the author is trying to make is that when one is so drunk that they cannot remember the night before, ones decision making ability is impaired.

Yes, a woman should be able to run down the street drunk and naked without being raped. Not getting so drunk that one runs down the street naked helps ensure one does not get raped, no?

[Gormy Cuss]

25. And her point was only addressed to women

which is the fundamental problem. Men who are so drunk they can't remember the night before also have impaired decision making ability, no? Sometimes that means they'll run naked down the street. Sometimes it even means they'll be raped. So why isn't Yoffe's message directed at both?

[cleanhippie]

41. You are also correct.

The same message does need to be aimed at men.

[LanternWaste]

37. If that was indeed the point, one wonders why it was addressed to females only...

If that was indeed the point, one wonders why it was addressed to females only rather than the general population as a whole, regardless of gender...

[cleanhippie]

42. Agreed.

[Freddie Stubbs]

5. And I should have the right to leave my car unlocked with the keys it

But having the right to do something and whether or not doing that actions is wise are two different things.

[Zorra]

9. What a terribly sad commentary on the general state of the male sex your post is.

Paraphrased: Women should not get drunk because some man might rape them if they do.

[DragonBorn]

12. Nice twist of words

I think that poster is trying to say just because you are able to do something doesn't make it wise.

I should be able to walk around the ghetto at midnight wearing a $1500.00 rolex but that doesnt make it smart. Would I be at fault if I got robbed? No it would be the guy who robbed me but it still doesn't make my actions smart.

I think most people recomend not getting black out drunk because its a bad idea, you might do stupid things while that drunk or bad people might take advange of you. Confusing pratical advice on how to keep yourself safe as rape apology just makes you look foolish.

If I ever have a daughter your damn right I'm going to tell her not to drink to excess where shes gets blackout drunk, or even close to that but if I guy rapes her while shes blacked out doesnt make it her fault.

[yurbud]

14. every dad should give his daughter similar advice, comfort her if she is a victim, and bury the perp

in the backyard.

[Zorra]

18. No. It implies that if a woman gets drunk it greatly increases the possibility that she'll be raped

by a man, and therefore she should not get drunk, or she will greatly increase the possibility that she will be raped by a man.

Keys in ignition: Easy target for car thieves

The National Insurance Crime Bureau, a nonprofit organization that combats insurance-related crime, and LoJack Corp., a producer of vehicle security systems, cite these statistics to emphasize that point:

• In 2010, the Baltimore Regional Auto Theft Task Force studied 400 criminal cases involving recovered stolen cars. The task force found that 85 percent had been stolen simply by using the keys that were in the car. That was up from 25 percent in a 1995 study.

• In 2009, the Arizona Automobile Theft Authority reported nearly one-fifth of all cars stolen in the state had keys left in them.

• In 2008, the Texas Department of Motor Vehicles reported that thieves stole nearly 90,000 cars in Texas. Of those cars, nearly half had keys that were left in the ignition.

[scheming daemons]

29. Getting drunk DOES increase the possibility

Doesn't make it the victim's fault... not even a little bit.


But getting drunk increases the odds that a person (male of female) becomes the victim of a crime.


It does not absolve the criminal one iota, but there is nothing... absolutely NOTHING... wrong with giving people advice that will lower the chances that they become the victim of a crime.


Your post proves the point. People who leave keys in their cars increase their chances of having their cars stolen. Therefore, it is good advice to tell people to NOT leave their keys in the car.

Similarly, getting drunk increases one's chances of being the victim of an assault. Therefore, it is good advice to tell people to NOT get drunk, especially not get so drunk that they black out or are unable to be aware of what's going on around them.


Common sense.

And absolutely NOTHING TO DO with rape apology.

[Zorra]

33. Please see post #28. nt

[scheming daemons]

40. I did.... and the difference between you and me is that I have a college-aged daughter

Lots of kids get their first experience with binge drinking when they're off to college for the first time.


And lots of kids don't understand what can happen to them when they get so plastered that they don't even know their surroundings.



So yes.... I educated my daughter on the dangers of binge drinking. How there are dangerous people in the world and something very bad could happen to her if she drank so much that she lost her situational awareness.

This is not "apologizing" for some prick doing something to her... and it is not "blaming" her if something does happen to her.

It is giving her advice that could save her life.

It is the same as telling her to wear her seatbelt, don't walk alone in shady neighborhoods at night, lock her doors, and hide her money.



You resenting people giving sound advice that could help them avoid becoming the victim of a crime is just silly.


OF COURSE, we should prosecute all rape with extreme prejudice, regardless of whether the victim was inebriated. We should fight for that every day in society.

But there are predators in the world... sadly, a lot of them are sexual predators. Until we can eradicate them from society, giving people advice to help avoid becoming one of their victims is not a bad thing.


It is childish to defiantly scream out "I should be able to drink as much as I want without fear of something bad happening to me". Of course you should be able to. But in the world we live in, you cannot. I cannot. Nobody can.

You should be able to leave your doors unlocked without being robbed.
You should be able to go anywhere you please at any time you please and not be mugged.
You should be able to use give a waiter your credit card without risking him stealing your number.

But you can't. Bad people exist. Helping our daughters avoid becoming a statistic is not rape apology.


I'm sorry the world sucks and that there are bad people looking for the opportunity to do bad things to innocent people. But I'm going to continue to emphasize to my daughter the ways she can help limit the opportunities these bad people get.

[Zorra]

48. Obviously, the major relevant difference between you and me in assessing this subject is that

you are male, and I am female, and I graduated from college, and I had a fun filled blast of a rewarding life because I did not let the institutionalized fears and limitations imposed on me for being female stop me from living life to the fullest. Your lack of experience in growing up female apparently makes it difficult or impossible for you to grasp where I am coming from. You missed the point.

Yes, life does hold some dangers for women that it doesn't hold for men. Yes indeed, it surely does.


Please see post #25.

And I did not scream out that "I should be able to drink as much as I want without fear of something bad happening to me". Although it would be true that I should.

I defiantly said, sir, that I will drink as much as I want, and I have, despite the fact that something bad might happen to me.

Just like one of the boys.

I'm not advocating for the use of alcohol, I am advocating for equality and the end of institutionalized patriarchy.

[scheming daemons]

49. congrats on surviving risky behavior unscathed

I can drive home today without wearing a seatbelt, and I will likely arrive unharmed.

But it would still be a foolish thing to do.

[Zorra]

55. You can drive home wearing a seatbelt, and, goddess forbid, get in a head on

with a tractor trailer because the truck driver was texting, and end up in the hospital, or worse.

But I don't imagine that will prevent you from driving home.

Lots of women knock back shots of Cabo Wabo and don't get raped because of it.

Well behaved women rarely make history.

[mercuryblues]

31. make sure to also

tell her not to accept a drink from anyone, even friends have been known to slip drugs into them. Also tell her to never go on a date in fear of date rape. She should also never go to her car at night, live alone or be alone.

Yes limiting a female's behavior is the way to combat rape.

What is foolish is the implied message being sent to women. That they are responsible for some perceived wrong-doing if they are raped. Do you really think that women do not already know the mantra of not drinking too much, be aware of your surroundings etc.? Has it stopped rape yet?

Why not also teach the sons to respect women enough to not rape them, even if they are drunk?

[scheming daemons]

51. maintaining situational awareness is always good advice

although in much fewer numbers, boys have been sexually assaulted after binge drinking also.

It is never bad advice to suggest that binge drinking is dangerous.

[mercuryblues]

59. The backlash

of that is, if a woman does drink too much and gets raped she assumes the guilt because she feels responsible. "If only I hadn't had too much to drink, I wouldn't have been raped" "if I had only asked someone to walk to the car with me, I wouldn't have been raped" "if only I had remembered to lock my window, I wouldn't have been raped" If my skirt was longer, if only I hadn't gone to that party, if only I hadn't gone out with him, if only, if only....

See how that works in a woman's world?

[lapislzi]

36. Just because you can fuck the drunk girl doesn't mean it's wise

Or legal, or that you should. If you fuck the drunk girl because HER judgment is impaired and she is unable to consent in a coherent way, that makes you a rapist.

[scheming daemons]

50. who said otherwise?

[joeglow3]

35. Goes both ways

I had a male friend raped by a woman in college when he got drunk and passed out. To make matters worse, she lived on our dorm room floor and was pregnant a month or so later. He faced the very real possibility of being raped, getting a woman pregnant, having no say in her keeping the kid (which she did) and owing child support for the next 18 years.

Thank God it was not his kid.

Fact is, the advice goes to BOTH genders.

[Blue_Tires]

20. But the person who steals your car

can't say "But the doors were unlocked and the keys in the ignition!!" as a valid defense in court...The theft is still a crime...

So while leaving your keys in the car isn't smart, if your car got stolen, wrecked and the thief was caught, you'd have every expectation of justice from the legal system...

[Sheldon Cooper]

27. Thank you!

I've made this point numerous times on this website. In NO OTHER CRIME is the perpetrator excused because the victim may have done something 'stupid'.

[JHB]

24. You do. And if someone steals it, they're considered a criminal

"Your Honor, he left it unlocked and had the keys in. How is that not consent for me to take a joyride in it? He wanted me to!"

That's the analogy here.

[PowerToThePeople]

7. This idea expands to many more areas

It is usually up to abused spouses to leave and relocate to a new home to get safe, not the abuser to stop or leave. The person hit by an uninsured driver pays the cost of repairs, not the uninsured. The person poisoned by industrial pollution dies by cancer, not the corporation.

Our whole societal system is messed up.

[PasadenaTrudy]

8. As long as

there are men on this planet, that will never happen

[Le Taz Hot]

10. That's not good enough.

We need to beat it into their tiny little *pea brains that RAPE IS WRONG. Besides, there are only a tiny percentage of men that would take advantage of an inebriated female. Unfortunately, they're the ones that get all the publicity. (*Note: Pea brains pertains to those mindless idiots who WOULD take advantage.)

[PasadenaTrudy]

16. I know

I agree, sadly it's just not realistic. Which isn't right.

[KitSileya]

38. In other words, men cannot help themselves?

Men cannot but rape?

Oops, I'll get the MRAs and the idiots caterwauling unless I explicitly say *Some* men cannot help themselves, *some* men cannot but rape?

In most cases with these rapes of drunken women, bystanders knew the woman was vulnerable and did nothing. In many famous cases, they even stood by and took photos, or talked about it in the next room. Why should all the education be about women not drinking, when we know perfectly well that even one drink can make you fall down drunk if a perp slips a mickey into it?

The premise of the whole thread is akin to teaching female soldiers to survive without drinking water while stationed in the Middle East, lest they be raped as they go to the latrine during the night. Which has happened to too many female soldiers to count, before you ridicule my analogy.

As it is, I expect better of men. I expect men to change masculine culture to make it ok to say to buddies, "Hey, don't reduce that women to just a body part, she's a whole woman" when they indicate a woman's breasts or bottom and go "Hur-Hur, I'd like to tap dat." I expect men to change masculine culture to make it a cool thing to tell a buddy, "I don't think she's sober, don't have sex with her." I expect men to change masculine culture to make it ok to listen to - and actually HEAR - women when they talk about their experiences and how they experience the world.

[get the red out]

53. That's it

Perfectly stated.

[Warpy]

56. Thank you.

These "blame and shame the victim" threads all miss that point, the point is that no victim of rape has done anything illegal and has not incurred his or her own sexual violation.

I said in another such discussion that such people who post rubbish like this would have us all in burqas behind barred windows with shotguns in our laps.

That's how ridiculous lists of the "don'ts" can get.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

6. The world is filled with predators

Many predators camouflage themselves and bait their victims. There are things a person -- not just women and not just about rape -- can do to better their opportunities to prevail/survive an attack by a predator. Learning these things and employing them is smart and sensible for the sake of self-preservation and they should be encouraged. One of the strongest lessons is simply understanding there are predators. Not hitting every conceivable checkbox on some list does NOT put the victim in any legally or morally culpable position. The predators and the predators alone bears sole responsibility to their actions.

[leftstreet]

11. Most rapists know their victims n/t

[Nuclear Unicorn]

19. And this fact should be part of predator awareness. n/t

[yurbud]

13. there should be two separate discussions: how to keep men from raping and how to keep women away

from the guys most likely to rape.

If I beg my daughter not to go to a frat or football party, that's not the same as blaming her if she gets raped.

If she goes, she might be doing something stupid, but the penalty for stupid should not be rape.

[pipi_k]

15. Sometimes it doesn't even

involve the women actually drinking, either.

One of my nieces lives in NM and is going to medical school. Her hubby is in the Air Force. She works part time as a bartender in a bowling alley.

A couple of nights ago she was leaving work when FIVE guys followed her out to her car.

She told them they had better not even THINK of touching her. I guess her attitude must have scared them or something. I don't know.

She wasn't drinking, so what's their excuse?? Except that maybe they were drunk themselves. Which is a reason, but not an excuse.

Anyway, friends and family have advised her to:

take self defense course (she has already contacted local police dept to see if they offer one)

carry mace or taser or both

and ask for an escort to her car at the end of each shift.


It sucks that women have to resort to such measures, but it's the reality.

I always have worries in the back of my mind for my female relatives, including my two young granddaughters. And yes, even my 9 year old grandson.

Lots of sick fuckers out there.

[apnu]

17. Scary story, has anybody suggested that she look into local martial arts schools?

If the police don't offer defense courses, they will. Some will offer a half-day course, some won't. But finding a good dojo to join that mirrors her personality and she trains with it for a while would give her so many more benefits beyond self-defense.

Having said that, her attitude and response to the situation was perfect. "No" does mean no, but how you say it carries more weight, and often one has to bellow it to cut through a alcohol/drug haze in her situation. Good for her for being so aware, wise and powerful.

[pipi_k]

23. Will have to wait

a day or two to find out if the PD offers a course.

If not, then definitely we, her family, will suggest some other means to learn a martial art.

She posted this on her Facebook wall, and someone said that martial arts wouldn't help in that sort of situation, but I don't know. If you're surrounded by five guys and you kick the ass of one of them, maybe the rest will come to their senses before anything bad happens.

I'm glad too that she had the self confidence to scare them off.

She looks all sweet and everything but she's got quite an attitude when she wants to have one.

[apnu]

26. Martial arts do work.

In that situation and every other. Very often thumping one of the aggressors in a pack scares off the others. They're attacking in a pack because they are cowards and need the support of the group to be bold. Break that and the group dynamic can fold fast. She frightened off 5 drunk men with a shout, that's evidence of what I'm talking about. Shows she's a smart girl. Which you said, I'm validating your idea.

The important thing to find is a style and school that fits with the student's personality and mindset. There are good schools and bad schools. Bad schools won't teach you much, give you false confidence and the first time the student uses their art, they'll get beaten badly. We call these bad schools "black belt mills"

Clues for a bad school are:
- A preponderance of lots patches and flashy, glitzy stuff. Such as lots of micro rewards.
- A speedy course to black belt (i.e. "we can get you a black belt in a year and a half" or some other statement that makes you think the process is rushed)
- Offering little after acquiring the black belt. A good school will continue training post-black belt and may even say that the "real" training comes after black-belt.
- Lots of hyper masculine ego in the dojo, shouting and military-esqe mindset.

Learning a martial art, whatever that is, Karate, Kung-fu, Capoeira, etc -- it doesn't matter, is more about what the student learns internally. Its a marriage of physical training and technique and a mental/emotional preparedness and toughness. That takes a lot of time and practice to possess. Martial Arts should be a long journey, one that lasts a life time. So if your niece decides to step on that path, she should be prepared to stick it out. That doesn't mean she must adhere to one style for ever. One of the most amazing martial artists I know is both a high ranking black belt in Karate as well as holding a high regard as a shifu in Kung Fu. She shouldn't be afraid to try out different schools and styles until she finds one that fits for her, whatever that may be.

No one martial art is better than another. It is all about the practicer. I have seen students of karate, kung fu, tae kwon do, and aikido all get owned in one situation or another. I've also seen students of those arts wipe the floor with other partitioners.

In any event, I wish her the best of luck. If she keeps her head, she'll be OK.

[WinkyDink]

21. Has anyone ever written an editorial advising store-owners not to tempt shoplifters?

[The2ndWheel]

60. Don't store owners take some precautions?

Insurance, cameras, a gun, locks, some other additional security? They don't leave all sorts of money on the counter and leave the store unattended.

What is wrong with practical advice? People run the risk of anything possibly happening at any time, just by living normal, boring life, let alone if they put themselves in potentially dangerous situations. What the world should be is a great ideal, and something to work toward, whether you have to slowly chip away, or are able to crack a whole side of a mountain down all at once. What the world is, is a different story.

If you're going to go out into the world, don't get fall down stupidly drunk, whoever you are, male or female, young or old.

[WinkyDink]

61. I do get it. But there seems to be a dearth of advice for men not to rape.

[KamaAina]

22. Coconut rum?

If it was Malibu, it's really more like a liqueur. Seven shots of that wouldn't be enough to put a mouse under the table.

[Zorra]

28. Damn it, I'll get as drunk as I want to, whenever I want to. I'll

take my chances and live in freedom, rather than be dominated and controlled by the threat and fear of men.

The real feminist message is pleading with men to: Stop the violence, and help other men get their shit together and end the rape consciousness, so women don't have to worry about being assaulted every time we walk down a dark street at night.

So, like, what causes the rapist consciousness anyway? Could it be...

patriarchy?

Fuck anybody who thinks it is some natural condition of human females in the world that I should live in fear and not enjoy the same freedoms as men simply because I am a woman.


Damn it, do people think that females are so clueless that we are not aware, after having lived long enough to be of or near drinking age, that we don't understand that we increase our chances of a man raping us if we are drunk?

Try to fix the problem instead of insisting that we limit our freedom due to our gender, because too many men believe they have some unspoken natural right to assault and rape women. What the fuck is that all about?

Daddy: "Don't drink too much, little Suzy, because if you do, some bad man might come along and rape you."

Little Suzy: "But why would some bad man do that, daddy?"

Daddy: "Because that's just the way things are for little girls who live in patriarchal societies, little Suzy."

Little Suzy: "Thank you, daddy, I love you, but fuck that. I cannot live my life and not do the things I want to do because men make me afraid to do them."

Daddy: "But baby, you're just a girl...

[trumad]

30. Best post ever on this subject.

And I mean ever.

[Zorra]

32. Thanks for getting it, trumad.

And thanks for the OP.

[trumad]

34. No thank you for getting it.

You ever post an Op and then have your jaw drop when reading replies.

This subject makes that happen.

[Paladin]

39. Well said.

And that's from a father of two daughters.

[NuclearDem]

45. [phone]

Everything that can be said about this topic in one great post.

[retread]

58. Thank You!!! n/t

[MissMillie]

43. There are lots of excellent reasons to not

throw back shots of rum.

Avoiding rape while drunk should be the least of a woman's worries.

But how about we encourage women (and men too) to avoid excessive alcohol use because:

it's unhealthy
it's expensive
it clouds judgment



Binge drinking and alcoholism are every bit as worrysome as sexual assault.

[trumad]

44. You forgot one thing

it's fun.

[MissMillie]

47. It can be

for sure.

I guess I would recommend a "buddy system" for anyone who ever goes out to party--male or female. Make a pact with someone you trust that one of you will stay sober.

Rape is only one of bad things that can happen to someone who is drunk. They can be mugged, car-jacked, etc.

[NuclearDem]

46. More concern trolling about rape.

"I just want women to be safe!"

Yeah, pbbbbbttttt.

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

52. I know it's not you Trumad, who made the statement

in the headline. But it got me to thinking of how I could try to explain how faulty that logic is. How's this? If I am out drinking, throwing back shots of rum say, pass out and when I wake up my wallet is gone and my ATM card has been used to empty my account, have I been robbed?
I say yes. So it is in the other example. Just because someone (in most cases a woman) gets drunk and passes out, it is not ok to have sex with her. It's rape. Just like stealing my wallet and emptying my bank account is theft.

[Nye Bevan]

54. Is it OK to suggest that it is never a good idea for anyone to get so drunk that when they wake up,

they "wonder what happened"? I really hope that this is not a controversial position to take.

[DireStrike]

57. I think "warning" is ok. But you can't then BLAME someone for not "listening to warnings".

Women have as much right to get fucked up as men.

But statistically in the current environment, that is dangerous.