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Mon Oct 21, 2013, 05:50 AM

Goldman Sachs, Bain Capital & Mitt Romney Sued for Racketeering By ME!

Lawsuit Filed in Los Angeles Federal Court Oct. 18 at 3:47 pm.


As reported late Friday night in DU LBN (here), yours truly sued Goldman Sachs, Bain Capital, Mitt Romney and his Gang (Paul Traub, Barry Gold, MNAT law firm, Colm Connolly and Michael Glazer) for Racketeering.

Specifically, the United States Code Title 18 Section 1961 through 1965 permits private citizens to sue people who are not being prosecuted; because they're organized criminal enterprise is so powerful - that no one will prosecute them. To address these issues of people being Above the Law, Section 1964(c) permits a citizen to become a "Private Attorney General".

Congress was well aware that powerful crime lords can have undue influence over the federal system of justice. To address such cases like Capone, where he appeared to be untouchable (just like Romney has been thus far), Congress even provided treble damages to motivate U.S. to become "Private Attorney Generals" and resolve "Prosecutorial Gaps". This Civil Right was affirmed by the U.S. Supreme Court in its Sedima case decision of 1995.

Our "Prosecutorial Gap" in this Racketeering case exists because of Romney's "retroactive" secrets. Mitt claims he was retired from Bain Capital as CEO in 1999; but we all know that he is lying about that. As Romney was caught on this issue, he flip flopped and claims he was CEO of Bain Capital until August 2001; and he then "retroactively" resigned back to February 11, 1999.



Mitt Romney's law firm Morris Nichols Arsht & Tunnell ("MNAT") also has a law firm partner from 1999 to August 2001; Mr. Colm F Connolly. On August 2, 2001, Colm Connolly was promoted to a position of power & corruption that assured there would be a "Prosecutorial Gap". As is detailed at the Department of Justice Office of Legal Policy Resume that;

Colm Connolly became the DE United States Attorney on August 2, 2001

Where, for his next sever years as chief federal prosecutor, Colm Connolly's office refused to investigate and/or prosecute his form partner (MNAT) and/or their clients Goldman Sachs, Bain Capital, Mitt Romney and his Gang.

For more on this story you can read the DailyKos Diary with links to other stories (here). The orange realm thread has over 10,000 Facebook likes; because that blogger told the story well and succinctly.

As for my brief, it is a rant. When one writes anything, a book, play, film; you are instructed to write from the heart and then reduce it to proper form. It was my plan to file it on October 31, 2013 (my birthday); but something came up that forced my hand to file it sooner.

If the corruption doesn't reach into California too;
then I'll AMEND my Complaint to be more "legal" true to form.

We've got them by the proverbial's, with the evidence being confessions, public docket records and much more (because they "believed" Romney was going to be POTUS and handpick the "friendly" US Attorney General Sheldon Adelson was paying for). So they left an evidence trail any high school student could prosecute them with. Fortunately for U.S. and my case;

Romney Didn't Make It!







UPDATE

Most people misunderstand "Civil" RICO.

- - - The Racketeering Influences Corruption Organizations ACT of 1970 was provided to U.S. by Congress, to handle sophisticated efforts in organized crime that assaults upon interstate commerce unlawfully.

A proviso of the RICO act is United States Code Title 18 Section 1964(c) - that states;

(c) Any person injured in his business or property by reason of a violation of section 1962 of this chapter may sue therefor in any appropriate United States district court and shall recover threefold the damages he sustains and the cost of the suit, including a reasonable attorney’s fee,


This "Civil Right" granted by Congress, who wanted it to be utilized so much so - that it is a Law (incentive) one can recover treble damages.



- - - - This civil right has been affirmed as Constitutionally sound

The United States Supreme Court addressed the issues of who, what and why Congress granted Civil RICO and the right to become a "Private Attorney General" in the 1995 case of Sedima v Imrex - where the court ruled that;

Finally, we note that a prior-conviction requirement would be inconsistent with Congress' underlying policy concerns. Such a rule would severely handicap potential plaintiffs. A guilty party may escape conviction for any number of reasons—not least among them the possibility that the Government itself may choose to pursue only civil remedies. Private attorney general provisions such as § 1964(c) are in part designed to fill prosecutorial gaps. Cf. Reiter v. Sonotone Corp., 442 U.S. 330, 344, 99 S.Ct. 2326, 2333, 60 L.Ed.2d 931 (1979). This purpose would be largely defeated, and the need for treble damages as an incentive to litigate unjustified, if private suits could be maintained only against those already brought to justice. See also n. 9, supra.

In sum, we can find no support in the statute's history, its language, or considerations of policy for a requirement that a private treble-damages action under § 1964(c) can proceed only against a defendant who has already been criminally convicted. To the contrary, every indication is that no such requirement exists. Accordingly, the fact that Imrex and the individual defendants have not been convicted under RICO or the federal mail and wire fraud statutes does not bar Sedima's action.







- - - - The remarks that the U.S. Government choosing only to pursue Civil Remedies does NOT prevent a citizen from seeking same; is exactly on point here. The DE Bankruptcy Court had the right to only fine Paul Traub's firm $750,000; but it has NO right to fail to refer the matter to the U.S. Attorney. As a matter of fact it is a command of Congress that judges are to NOTIFY & REFER criminal matters to federal authorities per 18 U.S.C. 3057(a).

When the Judge and US Trustee (commanded to do the same under 28 USC 586(a)(3)(F)) refused to go by the law - with the compounding issue that (even if they had) they would have been Notifying & Referring the matter to the CORRUPT U.S. Attorney Colm Connolly

Obvious creates a "Prosecutorial GAP" in need of being filled!




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Reply Goldman Sachs, Bain Capital & Mitt Romney Sued for Racketeering By ME! (Original post)
laserhaas Oct 2013 OP
Autumn Colors Oct 2013 #1
laserhaas Oct 2013 #2
Heather MC Oct 2013 #23
laserhaas Oct 2013 #30
laserhaas Oct 2013 #33
Heather MC Oct 2013 #41
laserhaas Oct 2013 #43
Sophiegirl Oct 2013 #98
Flatulo Oct 2013 #62
laserhaas Oct 2013 #73
Flatulo Oct 2013 #76
laserhaas Oct 2013 #77
idwiyo Oct 2013 #3
laserhaas Oct 2013 #12
ReRe Oct 2013 #4
Dr Hobbitstein Oct 2013 #9
ReRe Oct 2013 #19
jberryhill Oct 2013 #36
laserhaas Oct 2013 #44
Dr Hobbitstein Oct 2013 #59
laserhaas Oct 2013 #27
Nuclear Unicorn Oct 2013 #39
laserhaas Oct 2013 #42
Nuclear Unicorn Oct 2013 #45
laserhaas Oct 2013 #47
laserhaas Oct 2013 #48
Nuclear Unicorn Oct 2013 #52
tillikum Oct 2013 #60
Common Sense Party Oct 2013 #102
mikeysnot Oct 2013 #78
laserhaas Oct 2013 #13
former9thward Oct 2013 #54
laserhaas Oct 2013 #55
Nuclear Unicorn Oct 2013 #56
former9thward Oct 2013 #61
jberryhill Oct 2013 #63
Nuclear Unicorn Oct 2013 #66
jberryhill Oct 2013 #70
laserhaas Oct 2013 #75
jberryhill Oct 2013 #81
Nuclear Unicorn Oct 2013 #79
Rex Oct 2013 #84
jberryhill Oct 2013 #88
Nuclear Unicorn Oct 2013 #89
jberryhill Oct 2013 #107
Rex Oct 2013 #72
Nuclear Unicorn Oct 2013 #74
jberryhill Oct 2013 #80
Rex Oct 2013 #82
jberryhill Oct 2013 #65
OnyxCollie Oct 2013 #5
laserhaas Oct 2013 #14
TxDemChem Oct 2013 #6
laserhaas Oct 2013 #16
TxDemChem Oct 2013 #68
laserhaas Oct 2013 #69
TxDemChem Oct 2013 #87
laserhaas Oct 2013 #93
Berlum Oct 2013 #7
laserhaas Oct 2013 #17
Oakenshield Oct 2013 #8
laserhaas Oct 2013 #18
dotymed Oct 2013 #10
laserhaas Oct 2013 #20
Victor_c3 Oct 2013 #11
laserhaas Oct 2013 #21
Tigress DEM Oct 2013 #15
laserhaas Oct 2013 #24
Tigress DEM Oct 2013 #29
laserhaas Oct 2013 #35
Tigress DEM Oct 2013 #37
laserhaas Oct 2013 #40
azurnoir Oct 2013 #22
laserhaas Oct 2013 #25
azurnoir Oct 2013 #32
laserhaas Oct 2013 #38
ReRe Oct 2013 #92
laserhaas Oct 2013 #94
ReRe Oct 2013 #99
laserhaas Oct 2013 #105
mountain grammy Oct 2013 #26
laserhaas Oct 2013 #28
mountain grammy Oct 2013 #31
laserhaas Oct 2013 #34
Laelth Oct 2013 #46
laserhaas Oct 2013 #49
whttevrr Oct 2013 #50
laserhaas Oct 2013 #51
laserhaas Oct 2013 #53
Oilwellian Oct 2013 #57
laserhaas Oct 2013 #58
Oilwellian Oct 2013 #64
laserhaas Oct 2013 #67
Oilwellian Oct 2013 #71
tillikum Oct 2013 #91
avaistheone1 Oct 2013 #83
Agony Oct 2013 #85
LittleBlue Oct 2013 #86
Tx4obama Oct 2013 #90
laserhaas Oct 2013 #95
Tx4obama Oct 2013 #96
AverageJoe90 Oct 2013 #97
laserhaas Oct 2013 #108
AverageJoe90 Oct 2013 #112
blue14u Oct 2013 #100
laserhaas Oct 2013 #106
blue14u Oct 2013 #116
laserhaas Oct 2013 #117
blue14u Oct 2013 #118
laserhaas Oct 2013 #119
gopiscrap Oct 2013 #101
ReRe Oct 2013 #103
laserhaas Oct 2013 #109
ReRe Oct 2013 #114
laserhaas Oct 2013 #115
Dark n Stormy Knight Oct 2013 #104
laserhaas Oct 2013 #110
Liberalynn Oct 2013 #111
laserhaas Oct 2013 #113

Response to laserhaas (Original post)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 05:55 AM

1. K&R -- Good luck!

And please, keep yourself safe.

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Response to Autumn Colors (Reply #1)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 05:58 AM

2. Thanks. Chances are I've pee'd the court off by ranting in my brief

but it IS a big deal and the evidence is pure and overwhelming.

Hard to keep myself safe - if they do plan to get me - Romney owns Clear Channel that was bought from Red McCombs and he also owns Blackwater.

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Response to laserhaas (Reply #2)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 08:27 AM

23. Can't wait for the Movie to be made about how you brought down Mitt Romney

I'm thinking Matt Damon could play your Character??? Hmmmm

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Response to Heather MC (Reply #23)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 08:42 AM

30. Ah, that would be okay, if he would gain 100 lbs.

Have been in discussion about book & film rights;
but can't trust the system of such.

Even though they came to me - I've got to have an attorney sign off on it all;
and worry about 400 page thick contracts where a court can order my silence.

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Response to Heather MC (Reply #23)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 08:44 AM

33. Already asked Jimmy Woods to play Romney

and Hanks would do a good Mitt as well.

But the story is so true and the issues so large;
any new up and coming star could do it also.

Unfortunately, if they are making a deal with me;
I'm going to insist on final edit.
(to make sure it is not bogus story)

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Response to laserhaas (Reply #33)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 08:59 AM

41. I doubt Hanks could play Mittens

Without Violently hurling, at then end of every film day
LOL
Matt has gained weight for a role before!

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Response to Heather MC (Reply #41)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 09:03 AM

43. LOL

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Response to Heather MC (Reply #41)

Tue Oct 22, 2013, 12:19 AM

98. I'm thinking...

...Kevin Spacey for Mittens. He's so good at playing a political a$$.

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Response to laserhaas (Reply #2)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 12:25 PM

62. Can you link to any evidence that Romney owns Blackwater?

All I'm finding is the same charges repeated in left-ish blogs.

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Response to Flatulo (Reply #62)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 01:07 PM

73. Uh - erh - I thought this was a "left-ish" Am I in the wrong place

And I never said Romney owned Blackwater.

FACTS

Romney owns Bain - Bain owns Clear Channel - Clear Channel was founded by Red McCombs - and Red McCombs also owns Blackwater - that was renamed "Xe" - renamed now as "Academi"

and here's you proof you seek

http://academi.com/pages/about-us/board-of-directors/red-mccombs-chairman

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Response to laserhaas (Reply #73)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 01:37 PM

76. Sorry, I misread what you wrote.

"- Romney owns Clear Channel that was bought from Red McCombs and he also owns Blackwater."

Sorry, I thought the 'he' in your post referred to Romney, not McCombs.

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Response to Flatulo (Reply #76)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 01:53 PM

77. And a great legal editor told me about that.... he warned me

that - even attorneys always say we, they, him, her

WE - WHO

They WHO

HOM _ WHO

HER _ WHO

The editor said it is laxity and an unfounded concern of saying the name over and over.

My bad, I'll try to be more "descriptive" in the future...

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Response to laserhaas (Original post)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 06:11 AM

3. k&r

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Response to idwiyo (Reply #3)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 08:15 AM

12. thanks

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Response to laserhaas (Original post)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 06:35 AM

4. Why isn't this all over the news?

Up till now (or at least since the Fri night dump), your posts here are all I've heard. I know you have been working on this a long time. Hope they don't lock the thread again.

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Response to ReRe (Reply #4)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 08:05 AM

9. It's not all over the news because it's a crackpot lawsuit.

A civil suit. RICO violations are a federal offense. Not a civil thing.

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Response to Dr Hobbitstein (Reply #9)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 08:25 AM

19. Civil suits...

are "crackpot" suits?

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Response to ReRe (Reply #19)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 08:49 AM

36. Not all of them...

However, for about $300, anyone can file anything in a federal court. Birthers, for example, have filed over 200 lawsuits on the basis of their belief that the president is not a natural born citizen.

The OP believes he was not properly compensated for some services in a bankruptcy more than a decade ago. Since then, it has become a personal obsession of his.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #36)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 09:05 AM

44. I've been working the case for 12 years now -as it is MY JOB to do so.

Just because crooks come along and toss you out of protecting the vault;
and crooked federal officials threw the crooks the keys to the vault


doesn't mean my job is over.

And YES, I'm obsessed with putting a stop to organized crime

being assisted by federal corruption.

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Response to ReRe (Reply #19)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 12:18 PM

59. No, but this one is. N/T

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Response to Dr Hobbitstein (Reply #9)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 08:31 AM

27. Shows how much you know about the law and how little you read threads

Civil RICO by citizens is a LAW by Congress;
affirmed by the United States Supreme Court in Sedima v Imrex.

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Response to laserhaas (Reply #27)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 08:55 AM

39. I read the OP. What are the alleged underlying crimes?

RICO requires something more substantial than, "Person A is a putz, Person B is questionable and they both know each other." There has to be an actual crime.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #39)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 09:02 AM

42. They have done of 100 counts - where would you like me to begin.

Civil RICO only requires that I provide proof to the "preponderance of evidence" standard.

It also ONLY requires that I provide proof of "indirect" benefit of parties. Romney bragged about getting millions each year from Bain Capital. So - IF - we provide proof that Bain benefited from fraud, then Romney benefited from fraud.

Also, I only need just 2 felony violations in 10 years;
they broke 19 laws in the last few months.

on top of all of this, Bankruptcy Fraud is part of RICO;
and we have Confessions to lying under oath 34 times in a bankruptcy case.

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Response to laserhaas (Reply #42)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 09:17 AM

45. Fraud and felony violations are not judged by civil standards.

You still need a criminal level of proof for the underlying crimes otherwise no crime was committed and thus RICO wouldn't apply. Civil RICO is to provide relief to parties harmed by racketeering, once racketeering has been proven. Your cart is ahead of your horse.

I would also wager the court may express some skepticism about what harm you in particular are supposed to have suffered. Civil suits aren't for abstractions or on behalf of unnamed parties. In other words you have to prove you have standing and you actually suffered verifiable harm as well as show the court can offer relief. Having Romney jailed or pay (to whom, exactly?) on your behalf because he never became President doesn't cut it.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #45)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 09:32 AM

47. I'm afraid that you don't GET IT - this case is going forward

and the U.S. Supreme Court said in Sedima the following (for hard heads)


Finally, we note that a prior-conviction requirement would be inconsistent with Congress' underlying policy concerns. Such a rule would severely handicap potential plaintiffs. A guilty party may escape conviction for any number of reasons—not least among them the possibility that the Government itself may choose to pursue only civil remedies. Private attorney general provisions such as § 1964(c) are in part designed to fill prosecutorial gaps. Cf. Reiter v. Sonotone Corp., 442 U.S. 330, 344, 99 S.Ct. 2326, 2333, 60 L.Ed.2d 931 (1979). This purpose would be largely defeated, and the need for treble damages as an incentive to litigate unjustified, if private suits could be maintained only against those already brought to justice. See also n. 9, supra.

In sum, we can find no support in the statute's history, its language, or considerations of policy for a requirement that a private treble-damages action under § 1964(c) can proceed only against a defendant who has already been criminally convicted. To the contrary, every indication is that no such requirement exists. Accordingly, the fact that Imrex and the individual defendants have not been convicted under RICO or the federal mail and wire fraud statutes does not bar Sedima's action.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #45)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 09:34 AM

48. BTW - on the bet you offer - You Would LOSE hands down

A Civil RICO party need only prove that his business was harmed indirectly;
whereas the crimes here harmed me directly.

The idiots felt so full of themselves - they actually emailed me a threat;
that they would destroy my business and career - if I didn't BACK OFF

and I still have the original email sent to the DOJ on that issue.

As a matter of fact -it was how we were led to the Smoking Gun!

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Response to laserhaas (Reply #48)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 10:37 AM

52. Oh my.

http://www.zoominfo.com/p/Steven-Haas/1354174894

Well, that is quite the read.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #52)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 12:20 PM

60. yikes. indeed.

 

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #52)

Tue Oct 22, 2013, 12:42 AM

102. Ouch. My eyes and brain hurt.

I think I'm allergic to word salad.

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Response to Dr Hobbitstein (Reply #9)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 02:11 PM

78. Two words

Paula Jones... that was a civil case that led to the impeachment of Clinton in the House of Reps via Monica Lewinsky....

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Response to ReRe (Reply #4)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 08:17 AM

13. They locked the LBN thread because I was the reporter

others (even have some from well respected blogs and main stream who want to report)

but they can't - until the Clerk scans it into the record and makes it official; or the clerk refuses to do so and makes the refusal official. They need the time stamp to verify; and I'm not where I can scan it in and provide it to them.

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Response to laserhaas (Reply #13)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 11:14 AM

54. It was locked because it was a crackpot lawsuit.

And when it gets dismissed you will never report it or you will claim corruption from top to bottom in the judicial system.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #54)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 11:51 AM

55. Dream on naysay. It was locked out after much debate; because

I reported it.

What should I have done, linked to DailyKos Diary - that's just silly.

Reporters can't report on it- until the Clerk scans it in "officially"

and as for that wish that it all goes away;
good luck with that...I've been at it for 12 years

and will keep it at for 12 more

if that is what it takes!

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Response to former9thward (Reply #54)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 12:01 PM

56. My curiosity has been piqued so I've been casually poking around for additional info

This is an outside media article on the initial case --

http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/business/news/etoys-investors-claim-conflict-at-law-firm-592819/

It's also made mention in the WSJ. So there's there there, just how much is the question.


Since then Mr. Haas, who apparently files court documents using his superhero name, has produced/utilized other resources --

http://www.zoominfo.com/p/Steven-Haas/1354174894


If I understand this correctly the above link was a pleading filed in New York --

71. TBF's power center to get willfully blind justice in Delaware cannot have reached here in NY...


As of this writing I am unaware of the disposition of this particular case, I only have my assumptions. Still, the pleading at the link is a glowing tribute to undefined complaints written in an untidy amalgam of pseudo-legalese and street vernacular. I beg you, please read it.


And then this ties in, somehow --

The Goal of this Website now - is to assist Tom Petters get a new trial and see to it that the Racketeering evidence of Goldman Sachs, Bain Capital and Paul Traub’s duplicity in the Petters, Fingerhut, Polaroid (and eToys cases) are punished by a Racketeering indictment

http://petters-fraud.com/


One would think that after being on the case for a decade or so a little editing would have come into play. I think the website speaks for itself. Again, please, see for yourself.



A less "busy" and less advocacy-minded summation of Le Affaire d' Petters --

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Petters


BTW -- his press release states he is CEO of Collateral Logistics, Inc. but every reference to CLI I can find outside of this case show CLI as inactive and having no named officers --

http://www.corporationwiki.com/California/Santa-Clarita/collateral-logistics-inc/43407676.aspx

But he does have his own yahoo.com email address, so there's that.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #56)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 12:21 PM

61. Thanks for the links.

Nice to have entertainment on a Monday morning.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #56)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 12:28 PM

63. It's a classic of pro se crusader legal pleadings

The federal bankruptcy court in Delaware pretty much flagged him as a vexatious litigant.

(of course because they are all bought off, corrupt, didn't follow the law, etc.)

His comment battles with the legally clueful at Kos are epic.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #63)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 12:35 PM

66. "His comment battles with the legally clueful at Kos are epic."

Could I humbly impose upon you to provide some links? It would be appreciated.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #66)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 01:02 PM

70. This is typical

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/09/30/1242491/-U-S-Trustee-Motion-v-Paul-Traub-Slapping-Wrist-of-Perjury-Fraud

CLI didn't file its claims properly. CLI failed to hire a lawyer, which is required because a corporation has to be represented by a lawyer in bankruptcy court. Because CLI didn't follow the rules, CLI didn't get paid what you thought it should have been paid.

You, as owner and officer of CLI, blew it.

So you've cooked up conspiracy theory in which you play a lead role so that you can claim you were victimized by Bain, Romney, Goldman Sachs, and their law firms.

I've read the relevant court documents. Whatever shenanigans MNAT and Traub were engaged in--and they were forced by the court to disgorge fees--are irrelevant to your postion, because you and CLI screwed up.

Get over yourself.


From the docket of DE BK Bankruptcy Petition #: 01-00706-MFW

12/06/2012
(3 pgs) Order DENYING Motion of Steven Haas and it is FURTHER ORDERED that any future pleadings filed by Mr. Haas in this case shall be deemed STRICKEN and returned without docketing (related document(s)2478, 2481, 2484, 2485, 2486) Order Signed on 12/6/2012. (CAF) (Entered: 12/06/2012)


WHEREAS
, to the extent that the Haas Motion is a claim on behalf of Mr. Haas as an individual, that claim is barred because it was filed almost a decade after the Bar Date and Mr. Haas has been actively involved in this case and never asserted any individual claim; and

WHEREAS, Mr. Haas’ numerous filings in this case are repetitive, without merit, and border on harassment; and

WHEREAS, pursuant to the All Writs Act, the Court has the power to bar further pleadings by Mr. Haas in these
circumstances, see 28 U.S.C. § 1651(a); United States v. Gomez-Rosario, 418 F.3d 90, 101 (1st Cir. 2005) (holding that courts have the ability to enjoin a pro se party from filing frivolous and vexatious pleadings); Shafii v. British Airways, PLC, 83 F.3d 566, 571 (2d Cir. 1996) (noting that an injunction is appropriate where a litigant engages in filing of repetitive and frivolous lawsuits); Cok v. Fam. Ct., 985 F.2d 32, 34 (1st Cir. 1993) (“Federal courts plainly possess discretionary powers to regulate the conduct of abusive litigants.”); In re Oliver, 682 F.2d 443, 445 (3d Cir. 1982) (holding that an injunction restricting filings was necessary where the pleadings constituted a continuous pattern of groundless and vexatious litigation); therefore, it is hereby


ORDERED


that the Haas Motion is DENIED; and it is further

ORDERED

that any further pleadings filed by Mr. Haas in this case shall be deemed stricken; and it is further

ORDERED

that the Clerk’s Office is hereby directed to return, without docketing, any further pleadings which Mr. Haas may file in this case.


There is a festival of fun in that case, and in several others, including the one where it finally got through to him that in order to appear as a corporate party, he needed to hire a lawyer. His lawyer shortly thereafter petitioned to be excused because he was driving the lawyer bananas.

So, since he can't file anything in the DE bankruptcy court anymore, he picked up the show and filed this new hot mess in California which, if you read the minimally coherent bits of it, is largely premised on not getting what he wanted out of the court in Delaware.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #70)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 01:27 PM

75. What is typical is how you naysay snides get your facts from

bull-ville and spread the manure around.

CLI always had an attorney - until AFTER the crooks confessed.

Then - they received big cases - abandoned their client;
and never even bothered to tell me the contract court approved

guarantees legal fees.

And this is OKAY for you!

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Response to laserhaas (Reply #75)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 03:25 PM

81. The other "typical" thing about us naysay snides in relation to your legal adventures

...is an unblemished 100% historical record of accurately predicting that you won't get anywhere by filing 100 page rant-filled diatribes with federal courts.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #70)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 02:33 PM

79. This is interesting --

I went to your link and clicked on his username to see his profile --

laserhaas's Profile


Fighting Bain & Goldman Sachs, their attorneys and duplicitous federal agents because no one else will. A series of battles that has thrusted my enemies to include a Presidential wannabe. A lonely place - but a very opportune 1!




Real Name: Laser the Liquidator

DOB: 10-31-19sumthin

Gender: Male

Location: Europa

Occupation: Get Bain & Goldman Sachs Investigated

Groups: WeeklyBUG, Abolish the Death Penalty, Whistleblowers Round Table, Occupy Wall Street, Foreclosure and Renters Rights and Battles, Citizens Against Tryanny Cronyism & Corruption, Mitt Romney Bain Chronicles, Police Accountability Group, Occupying with Laser, The Bain Files, Occupying Robber Baron Romney n His RICO Gang, Too Big to Fail and Too Corrupt to Jail

Hobbies: End White Collar Fraud

Home Page: http://www.laserhaas.wordpress.com

Twitter: laserhaas01

Diaries published: 313 (1 day since last diary on Sun Oct 20, 2013 at 08:09 AM PDT)

Comments posted: 8542 (0 days since last comment on Mon Oct 21, 2013 at 07:52 AM PDT)

Diary frequency: frequent

Comment frequency: frequent

Total Recommends: 3955

Total Comment Ratings: 300

Most Recommended Diary: Police Brutality Cover Up FAILS as Thomas' father turns down $900,000, 134 comments, 350 recommends

People Following laserhaas: 77


"Laser the Liquidator"

I trying to imagine if that is with or without a cape.

Anyway, about half way down you see the link for his homepage -- http://www.laserhaas.wordpress.com

So, I went to his homepage. In the masthead he quotes the Declaration of Independence. No real harm in that except the passage he selected is rather...militant --

When a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security.


It seems "troubling" that a person seeking judicial relief has an unction to armed revolutionary action.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #79)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 05:57 PM

84. AN anarchist lawyer?

Is he talking about our current administration?

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Response to Rex (Reply #84)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 07:15 PM

88. He's not a lawyer

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Response to Rex (Reply #84)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 07:19 PM

89. This is no longer fun. The more I read of his writings and bizarre organizational charts

the more convinced I am that we are dealing with an obsessive personality with delusions of grandeur and feelings of persecution. I honestly, honestly worry he may not accept the inevitable peacefully.

But the Delaware Department of Justice and Federal Court’s are damnation bent to break all Laws and Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, destroying the Public’s faith in the integrity of the Judicial Process.

For the sake of cronyism, tyranny and corruption to protect MNAT and its clients.

As a result – the Dept of Justice rogue elements have broken the Law so profusely and docket record substantiated overwhelmingly – that MNAT’s secret clients Goldman Sachs and BAIN are getting away with organized crime.


UPDATE Aug 31, 2011

WARNING – there are rogue elements within the Dept of Justice – seeking to subvert the Constitution of the United States for veiled agendas sake – contrary to Congressional Law! During his tenure at the Delaware Department of Justice, US Attorney Colm Connolly’s office repeatedly declined to investigate and prosecute the MNAT law firm.



Keep in mind, Haas' only role in this was to provide transportation and security for the as yet unsold assets of eToys, i.e. product and later office furniture. In other words, he was to hire and administrate the elderly security guard napping at the warehouse every night as well as procure the occasional moving van.

Kossack, VetGrl, has an excellent summation -- http://www.dailykos.com/comments/1167910/48680260#c39

But this has been gnawing at him for over a decade. He has lied about his role in the eToys liquidation and is saying that the rule of law has been so deeply subverted with veiled agendas he's quoting the Declaration of Independence about the duty of throwing off the bonds of government.

And for what?

A website that sold Bob the Builder toys and ant farms. That's what all this is about. This is the deepest deep conspiracy that almost ruled the US that is worthy of a James A. Michener novel.

People need to stop cheering this. He doesn't need applause, he needs help and those who are egging him on my soon find they have cheered for a tremendous tragedy.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #89)

Tue Oct 22, 2013, 11:11 AM

107. I believe you are right on the money

It's sad in a way.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #66)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 01:07 PM

72. +1

Never seen an epic battle at Kos, would like to see one.

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Response to Rex (Reply #72)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 01:17 PM

74. jberryhill's link is -- illuminating

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Response to Rex (Reply #72)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 03:09 PM

80. Well, "epic" in the sense of...

...him going after anyone who knows a crank lawsuit when they see one.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #80)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 05:53 PM

82. I've heard people can get very nasty at Kos

seen a few people come here, because they can't stand that website. Thanks for the link!

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Response to former9thward (Reply #54)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 12:33 PM

65. Definitely corruption

Someone should institute an "Orly Taitz Legal Scholarship Fund".

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Response to laserhaas (Original post)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 06:37 AM

5. K&R.

Go laserhaas!

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Response to OnyxCollie (Reply #5)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 08:18 AM

14. Thanks OnysCollie

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Response to laserhaas (Original post)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 06:55 AM

6. Good luck. I was wondering at the end of last year

how things would play out after the election. Is hate to see any wrongdoing go unpunished.

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Response to TxDemChem (Reply #6)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 08:20 AM

16. Actually was working with attorneys, who kept dragging their feet

and I finally told them to do it - or quit; and they quit.

Can't blame them. Because, as anyone can see - the Law

is NOT being applied.

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Response to laserhaas (Reply #16)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 12:53 PM

68. Good riddance to bad rubbish. I assumed

that once he lost the election, there would likely be more action from all parties involved. At some point, I thought everyone was just paid off. Glad to see you are still pursuing it.

Give them hell.

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Response to TxDemChem (Reply #68)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 01:02 PM

69. I am. As soon as the court dockets the brief (scan it in)

I'm going to call everyone (whom I assume are already notified anyway)

If they know about it (and I tweeted it directly to Mitt has on Twitter)

than he is already pissed that his underlings put him in this position.

They should have settled and gave me back what the stole (eToys)

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Response to laserhaas (Reply #69)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 06:41 PM

87. Heck yes. It should have never gotten to this point.

Well I will definitely let everyone I know to talk about it, get a bit noise to back you up. I wish you a speedy resolution.

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Response to TxDemChem (Reply #87)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 09:50 PM

93. Thanks

MUCH

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Response to laserhaas (Original post)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 06:56 AM

7. citizen prosecutor - for the people

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Response to Berlum (Reply #7)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 08:21 AM

17. Just so happens that Bankruptcy Fraud is one of Civil RICO's

"predicate acts" that qualify for successful prosecution as a

Private Attorney General

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Response to laserhaas (Original post)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 07:20 AM

8. I wish you all the best!!!

Romney and gang deserve a strong humbling!

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Response to Oakenshield (Reply #8)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 08:22 AM

18. You got that right. And IF (a REAL BIG IF) main stream picks this

up - they are going to have to be humble.

Stupid for not just giving me back eToys and settling;
while believing they can still break the law

after he lost and has nothing to offer but bribe money

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Response to laserhaas (Original post)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 08:09 AM

10. K&R laserhaas

Have you contacted any Media?

Screw the MSM if they ignore this.

The Real News Network, Democracy Now, RT, it seems that any/all of these Progressive networks would report on this.

IMO, the more publicity, the safer you will be.

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Response to dotymed (Reply #10)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 08:25 AM

20. You have that correct "dotymed" - already have 1 online doing a story

tomorrow or the next day.

Main stream will be ordered to leave it alone
(as they did during the election)

but we already had 100,000 views and over 10,000 FB likes on it thus far.

IF that GROWS (and the new followers I got over the weekend on Twitter are 200 HUGE followers - including President Obama's campaign) is encouraging.

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Response to laserhaas (Original post)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 08:13 AM

11. Good luck

I'm all for separation of corporation and state.

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Response to Victor_c3 (Reply #11)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 08:26 AM

21. So am I

SO AM I

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Response to laserhaas (Original post)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 08:18 AM

15. Copy all your stuff off to the Guardian UK and George Galloway

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2005/oct/25/otherparties.usa

He successfully stood up to Norm Coleman who was trying to roast him in Senate hearings.

He's always controversial but at least you know he won't let anyone shut him up about it.

Make sure the whole world is watching and you might just live through it.

GOOD LUCK!!




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Response to Tigress DEM (Reply #15)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 08:27 AM

24. Thanks, I'll see if Mr. Galloway is on my list of media contacts.

I do so hope to live through this;
but I'm kicking the big boys now.

They play mean....

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Response to laserhaas (Reply #24)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 08:38 AM

29. He is/was Brittish Parliment and quite the insane clown possee BUT...

If he takes to your issue, no one will be able to shut him up.

He's not a sweet innocent and some of his views are not very tolerable, but he helped stand with US against the war in Iraq and he's pretty indomitable. Kind of like a Teddy Roosevelt without the personal restraint.

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Response to Tigress DEM (Reply #29)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 08:48 AM

35. Thanks - looking him up now

....

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Response to laserhaas (Reply #35)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 08:50 AM

37. Also looks like someone got fired for busting Goldman Sachs

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017153297

NY Federal Reserve Examiner Fired After Submitting Critical Report of Goldman Sachs

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Response to Tigress DEM (Reply #37)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 08:58 AM

40. Thanks for this, she IS my type of Gal and Bill Black is a guy

that I need to talk to

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Response to laserhaas (Original post)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 08:26 AM

22. wishing you success with this

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #22)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 08:29 AM

25. Thanks - for all that you say and do azurnoir

If they don't "get" me and the court is not pushed to do wrong by the powers that be; then it will turn into a trial. They can never let this go to trial; the evidence is too overwhelming, profuse and most irrefutable public docket records and federal archives.

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Response to laserhaas (Reply #25)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 08:43 AM

32. I certainly hope they do not get you in court

and your welcome

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #32)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 08:51 AM

38. All I'm asking for is one day - just one day

if the court honorably hears any of the evidence - RICO Romney loses

And I'm well aware that the path of least resistance to quashing this, is hushing me up.

We'll see what happens over the next few days...

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Response to laserhaas (Reply #38)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 07:33 PM

92. Have you thought of...

Faxing it all to Amy Goodman?

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Response to ReRe (Reply #92)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 09:51 PM

94. Tried her and her mom.

They never return my emails, mails or calls.

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Response to laserhaas (Reply #94)

Tue Oct 22, 2013, 12:33 AM

99. Dear laser...

... Amy's Mamma passed at least two or three yeears ago.

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Response to ReRe (Reply #99)

Tue Oct 22, 2013, 05:24 AM

105. I've been at this for a decade plus now

I'm sure (IF) when the court dockets my complaint;
some media outlets will garnish better interests.

Hopefully!

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Response to laserhaas (Original post)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 08:30 AM

26. Good luck.. nothing would please me more than watching this case move forward.

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Response to mountain grammy (Reply #26)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 08:34 AM

28. If it does - Romney's RICO Gang loses big time.

Their ONLY hope is that the court tosses it out;
and I'm allowed to Amend the Complaint 1st - as a matter of Law.

The more this is talked about in the public, in court, by ANY press

greater is my chance to thump them good.

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Response to laserhaas (Reply #28)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 08:42 AM

31. I'll be shouting from my mountaintop! They need a good thumping

because an election is never enough. His refusal to release all but 2 years of tax returns was astonishing; hard to believe that was just blown off. Rmoney is hiding plenty and there's no one who doesn't know this, we just need someone to air all the dirty secrets. Thanks for giving this a go.

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Response to mountain grammy (Reply #31)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 08:46 AM

34. We came close. Vanity Fair didn't talk to me; but they did research the

information I sent them and did a story on Bermuda/Sankaty.

The money there is ALL Mitt's and it is WELL OVER

$1 BILLION.....

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Response to laserhaas (Original post)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 09:28 AM

46. Thanks for fighting the good fight. Best of luck! k&r n/t

-Laelth

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Response to Laelth (Reply #46)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 09:36 AM

49. appreciate that "Laelth" - it is going to get rough.

IF the court allows anything to occur

a hearing

a motion

ANYTHING

they then will know it is going forward;
and they CAN"T win if it goes to process.

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Response to whttevrr (Reply #50)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 09:56 AM

51. Don't fret 'whttevrr' (really hard moniker btw)

Luck has nothing to do with it.

They are EXTREMELY guilty.

All I need is one (JUST 1) honorable public servant to give this a review;
then Romney's RICO Gang needs to run for the hills.

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Response to laserhaas (Original post)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 10:57 AM

53. Here's a link to a DailyKos story on Taking Down Goldman Sachs

It is by Kossack Cordgrass.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/10/06/1023387/-How-to-bring-down-Goldman-Sachs


Who wrote the following correct summation;

There is very obvious criminal activity. Not so much on this lawsuit, but that when Goldman Sachs trashed the company to hide their initial crime and eToys went bankrupt, eToys hired some bankruptcy lawyers, Morris Nichols Arsht & Tunnel (MNAT). Those bankruptcy lawyers happened to secretly be affiliated with Goldman Sachs. It is against the law for a bankruptcy law firm to work on a bankruptcy case when they are affiliated with the firm associated with the IPO, because there could be a conflict of interest.

Just like with Nixon, it wasn't so much the initial crime that got him in trouble, it was the coverup. This coverup is a very clear, documented crime, and it could bring down Goldman Sachs.

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Response to laserhaas (Original post)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 12:02 PM

57. I wish you all the best

I'm assuming you know of Patrick Byrne, CEO of Overstock.com who is obsessed with exposing naked shortselling and has also sued Goldman Sachs, among others. Wall Street criminals nearly bankrupted Overstock and was very successful at painting Byrne as some kind of kook after he sued them. It seemed his efforts died on the vine until one of Goldman's lawyers accidentally released papers that exposes their naked short selling. Oops! As far as I can tell, it's game on again.

Good luck and be careful.

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Response to Oilwellian (Reply #57)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 12:07 PM

58. Actual met with Patrick Byrne and he hates me; because

I cost him millions in the ToyTime deal.

Paul Traub was trying to make friends with Overstock by reducing the price of the sale of ToyTime.com to him; and they asked me to come in and keep the count straight.

Not only did he have to pay the original agreed upon price;
but I made them pay the cost of the count.

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Response to laserhaas (Reply #58)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 12:29 PM

64. LOL, well I'll be

If I'm reading you correctly, Byrne has a philosophy of do unto others, just don't do it to me?

I was wondering if the info that Goldman Sachs lawyer accidentally released, and Taibbi exposed, is of any help to you in this suit? It seems to have helped Byrne quite a bit.

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Response to Oilwellian (Reply #64)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 12:43 PM

67. I'm one of the sources for Taibbi's "Greed and Debt" article

and , I'd be Glad to help Patrick go after Goldman Sachs;
but it is highly unlikely he would be willing to discuss it with me.

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Response to laserhaas (Reply #67)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 01:06 PM

71. I have to admit...

I'm not familiar with your story, but I will be by the end of the day. When something touches my interests, I become a bulldog that doesn't let go. LOL

I became obsessed with Byrne's story and even did a video on Jim Cramer when he openly admitted to stiffing his clients via pumping and dumping. It's so amazing to me how brazen they are about the crimes they commit with impunity.

Again, best of luck and be careful. You're going after some pretty unsavory characters.

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Response to Oilwellian (Reply #57)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 07:30 PM

91. while a big fan and understanding the necessity of shorting for liquidity

 

naked shorts are dirty, dirty pool.

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Response to laserhaas (Original post)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 05:53 PM

83. Are we on a roll of good news or what?

k&r

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Response to laserhaas (Original post)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 06:02 PM

85. Rec. one zero zero!



any score against GS will be a BIG deal!

Cheers,
Agony

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Response to laserhaas (Original post)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 06:03 PM

86. Thieves, all of them. nt

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Response to laserhaas (Original post)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 07:25 PM

90. Politicususa has posted an article about YOU :)

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Response to Tx4obama (Reply #90)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 09:56 PM

95. Thanks for the heads up

Is this okay to post on LBN?

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Response to laserhaas (Reply #95)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 10:25 PM

96. I've sent you a PM. Also...


Alan Colmes (Democrat on Fox News) has posted about you, here: http://www.alan.com/2013/10/19/romney-bain-capital-hit-with-rico-suit/

Little Green Footballs posted an article too, here: http://littlegreenfootballs.com/page/302507_Romney_Bain_Sued_for_RICO_in_F

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Response to laserhaas (Original post)

Mon Oct 21, 2013, 11:46 PM

97. Good luck, my friend. You are doing MUCH good out there. nt =)

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Response to AverageJoe90 (Reply #97)

Tue Oct 22, 2013, 11:29 AM

108. Can't never could until it tries

Thanks

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Response to laserhaas (Reply #108)

Tue Oct 22, 2013, 03:32 PM

112. You're welcome, and best of luck. n/t =)

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Response to laserhaas (Original post)

Tue Oct 22, 2013, 12:33 AM

100. Hey, I just read about



this on a news site I frequent.



Good for you!!!

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Response to blue14u (Reply #100)

Tue Oct 22, 2013, 05:26 AM

106. Please advise what blog etc. I try to thank all who help get the word out

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Response to laserhaas (Reply #106)

Tue Oct 22, 2013, 09:30 PM

116. I read the piece on


PoliticusUSA.. Then I noticed Tx4obama had just posted

to you, he too had also read the same article.. I'm so behind

all that you do and the reason for it.

I did read a few posts prior to mine in the OP.. someone was being

so ugly about your accomplishments.. Why are people so rude??

I feel their comments and cynicism was so uncalled for..

I wish the absolute best for you...

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Response to blue14u (Reply #116)

Wed Oct 23, 2013, 12:31 AM

117. Thanks for the well wish. I've no idea why people join the mob to beat up a victim

a 2nd, 3rd and etc. time and again.

Either they are from legal fields circling the wagons to protect attorneys at law (akin to the "Blue Wall of Silence" by policeman) - or they are out to make it a left v right thing (which it is NOT - I'm trying to stop crooks & corruption)

Or- they are snide; attacking me like I'm trying to be special.

If you call losing your career, having your family attacked, a friend having to shoot/kill and assailant and finding out our federal system of justice is incestuously and systemically corrupt;

specialness...........

then our whole world is upside down already...

I just want this over with already....

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Response to laserhaas (Reply #117)

Wed Oct 23, 2013, 12:50 AM

118. You have many very


good insights as to a reason for the snide remarks from fellow DUers...

I am truly sorry for all the loss you have had to endure. I am thinking you have many

who support you, and your endeavor even outside of DU.

Wanting it all to go away already is probably your biggest wish...

I can't blame you for that, and wish I had the strength you have to

continue to fight the good fight..

Hang in there. You have so much support!!!

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Response to blue14u (Reply #118)

Wed Oct 23, 2013, 12:58 AM

119. If not for a staunch belief in the existence of good people

I would have tossed out civility a LONG time ago...

The Law is our friend;

All I need do is find an authority that desires to see it applied.

Thanks again - for your kind words.

All together, we've had over 200,000 web views on the various storys/blogs etc;
and more than 20,000 FB LIKES...

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Response to laserhaas (Original post)

Tue Oct 22, 2013, 12:37 AM

101. Yes!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Response to laserhaas (Original post)

Tue Oct 22, 2013, 12:43 AM

103. Good news...

Looks like you're getting picked up by several newsblogs... You are probably going to get real busy, if you're not already. Good luck, laser.

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Response to ReRe (Reply #103)

Tue Oct 22, 2013, 11:30 AM

109. Please provide links "ReRe"?

The more the merry

One seeks quantitative review of the issues;
which then compels a proper adjudication upon the merits.

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Response to laserhaas (Reply #109)

Tue Oct 22, 2013, 07:13 PM

114. You've probably already seen them by now...

... look at post #90 and #96 in this thread.

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Response to ReRe (Reply #114)

Tue Oct 22, 2013, 08:20 PM

115. Yes I have (search every hour like a narcissistic toad).

The goal is to garnish "quantitative" attention;
and that means "qualitative" reflections.

Which will equal a proper adjudication upon the merits;


where "they" (the nefarious RICO horde) - Lose!


Thanks

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Response to laserhaas (Original post)

Tue Oct 22, 2013, 05:13 AM

104. Wow! Good for you. Thank you for trying to bring these criminals to justice.

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Response to Dark n Stormy Knight (Reply #104)

Tue Oct 22, 2013, 11:31 AM

110. They say it can't be done - and I'm trying to prove that logic errant

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Response to laserhaas (Original post)

Tue Oct 22, 2013, 11:34 AM

111. Good for you and Good Luck

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Response to Liberalynn (Reply #111)

Tue Oct 22, 2013, 05:20 PM

113. Thanks - "Liberalynn" - Good news is, the judge hasn't tossed it YET

50/50 chance the powers that be will crush the case.

If the judge won't play ball - they can reassign it to one who will.

We'll see

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