Here's why I am doubtful about Hillary Clinton -

[hedgehog]

and please, I'm asking for information here, so give me your best sales pitch -

but back in 1993, she was in charge of bringing us a Health Care Plan. It got slapped down by the Right, and as far as I know, that was the end of that. It's not that she compromised, it's that as far as I can tell, she left the field entirely.

that's one reason. Here's the second - she stands for women's rights worldwide, but what else does she stand for? It's great for me that one of my daughters has a job as well paid and with as much responsibility as one of my son's. But I have another daughter and another son who are both underemployed. All of my kids are still paying off student loans, will be for the next ten years, and they all went to state schools. As Senator from New York, I don't know what she did for my region except to grease the skids for a major mall expansion in Syracuse that neither the city nor the county wanted. It sucked the life out of the rest of the city, and coincidentally made money for a Republican developer who happened to be a big Clinton donor. Now I know that politicians need money, so I don't have to like all their friends. I do expect them to do something for me and mine as well as the big money people.

[Laelth]

1. Bookmarking.

-Laelth

[BlueToTheBone]

3. I loves me some popcorn.

Want a beer?

And for the record, I think she is incredibly organized, able to think and able to convey her thoughts so that people around the world have great respect for her and she would be a dynamic president. BTW, she left the stage over a stained blue dress.

[hedgehog]

6. I am unsure about what you mean by the last statement - but

I'm glad you brought that up. How many people support Hillary because they are still angry that Bill was impeached over that? How many younger people care? How many younger people are even aware of it?

Turnout will be vital to a Democratic victory. It's not going to be a cake walk for us even if the other side runs Ted Cruz; Nixon, Reagen, Bush I and Bush II proved that. Is anyone here willing to risk Bush III? I don't think Hillary is capable of generating the excitement we need.

[BlueToTheBone]

14. ...

It's not that she compromised, it's that as far as I can tell, she left the field entirely.

I was just responding to that statement and adding why I thought she left the field.

[hedgehog]

16. IIRC, health care reform died before Bill Clinton had been in office 6 months.

[HappyMe]

4. Scoot over.

[beachbum bob]

2. let google tell you

https://www.google.com/#q=hillary+clinton+achievements

[hedgehog]

7. But - tell me what gets you excited about Hillary.

[Savannahmann]

5. My Friend, I'm going to say to a certain extent, I agree.

Part of what I want out of the next Presidential Primary is a serious discussion on the values and positions of the Democratic Party. It can be just more of the same, or it can be for real progressive principles.

I don't know who I will support for the Primary Process. I see some similarities from Corey Booker and President Obama. One of the things that I'm going to be considering is who can win the General, and I'm not sure that is SOS Clinton. Also I am wary of the aura of inevitability. Few things in life are truly inevitable. Death is one of those things that is inevitable, but little else is. If Hillary was the nominee, you can count on a few things as inevitable. Comments she made about Candidate Obama in 2008 will be questioned, such as her 3 am phone call ad. The inevitable question she will have to face is did President Obama rise to the situation? If she says yes, then the question of her making such accusations without better information comes up. If she says no, then why hasn't she said so since?

We need a candidate, one that can win the general, and push progressive principles. But we also need a candidate who has a consistent and clean record.

Before you start ranting friends. I'm not saying that the candidate should be Booker. I'm not even suggesting it, I'm just saying that the individuals rise to power over a fairly short period is similar. I am not saying that the policies or statements are similar, nor am I endorsing anyone at this time. I am not even tossing a name out there, merely an observation and a comment that it is far too early to even consider one person as the inevitable candidate.

[DURHAM D]

8. It was as much the Left as the Right who threw her plan on the floor.

She had to stop working on the issue as first lady because the President had no choice. Don't forget he was a hayseed that needed to be shown he just wasn't all that and those that needed to show him were establishment Democratic Senators.

[hedgehog]

9. But - did she pick herself up off the floor and try again?

[DURHAM D]

10. This is not a serious question.

[hedgehog]

11. Yes it is - did either Clinton push for Health care reform during the rest of his two terms?

Last edited Fri Oct 18, 2013, 02:29 PM - Edit history (1)

Edit:
I looked this thread over and I think I missed your point. I know that Hillary was repeatedly embarrassed in an excruciating fashion by Bill, yet she went on to make a political career for herself. It's a measure of my values that I'm not really interested in her personal life. What I am looking for is someone who will keep on fighting for me. I don't think we will succeed if 2016 devolves into a re-hash of the Clinton Presidency.

[BainsBane]

26. What was she elected to in the 1990s?

Of all the Hillary hate comments I've seen, the idea that she wasn't involved enough in policy throughout the rest of her husband's term is the most spurious. Then you go on to blame her for what her husband did.

Firstly, you don't need to worry about anyone running for President now because no one is. This endless fixation on Presidential elections is exactly why Democrats lose mid-terms and local elections that lead to re-redistricting. Then the idea that Clinton is not a fighter makes me wonder how much attention you've paid. It seems to me of all her pluses and minuses, her perseverance stands out.

I get that Hillary bashing is all the rage on DU. Hate Hillary Clinton and everyone gives you high fives. Your particular set of criticisms, however, don't make any sense to me.

[Beacool]

42. Thank you for what you wrote.

I don't have the energy to refute some of the nonsense that one reads on this so called Democratic site. It's not a wonder that the majority of Clinton supporters left this site in 2008.

[treestar]

56. Exactly and just when 2014 is looking better

Due to Republican meltdown.

[coldmountain]

44. The Republicans took over Congress!

[karynnj]

28. You ignore that HRC and Ira Magaziner developed the plan keeping the Senate

and House committees that oversaw healthcare at a distance. This included people like Ted Kennedy. This was likely bad both in terms of policy - their collective memory was of many things that did not work and some that were promising - and in getting votes. None of them felt any ownership. (Remember Democrats controlled both branches.)

That might not have mattered if the plan was accepted as good by all , but it wasn't. The fact that she had not even one supporter on the Finance committee - not even Bill Bradley - says something.

In some ways she STILL had the tendency to keep just to her inner circle as SoS. There were many times that Lugar complained that neither she or anyone high in the State Department was willing to come before the committee other than when she had to each year with the budget.

That won't hurt getting elected, but it might signal that she would not work well with Congress.

[Laelth]

50. Useful information. Thanks for the post. n/t

-Laelth

[yurbud]

12. I would like to see a candidate who took on the big dogs to defend the rest of us

I don't see that in her.

[hedgehog]

13. This ^^^^^

[HappyMe]

17. Yeah, that's true.

I saw here somewhere the New American Center is now the way to go, and that Elizabeth Warren is too liberal for Americans today!



People here have complained endlessly about Obama being too centrist, but now centrist is awesome cuz Hillary.

[Ikonoklast]

33. The cognitive dissonance is jarring.

People here have complained endlessly about Obama being too centrist, but now centrist is awesome cuz Hillary.

They hate 'Centrist Obama', but love 'Even Further Right Hillary'.

Wut.

[HappyMe]

37. I don't understand it myself.

It's almost kind of funny... if it wasn't so obviously ridiculous that is.

[DonCoquixote]

53. That is because

Many so called liberals are centrist.

[yurbud]

35. the handful of shills and their sock puppet identities are not DU

[JohnnyLib2]

15. Take a look at her role in establishing CHIP (Children's Health Insurance Program)

[hedgehog]

20. I had forgotten that if I ever knew it.

However, I think it's important that it is not the first thing that comes to mind when I think of Hillary Clinton.

[karynnj]

30. You mean her very secondary role to Kennedy, Hatch and Kerry?

The plan was first introduced as legislation by Kerry and Kennedy in 1996. It was patterned after a Massachusetts program which expanded the number of kids that got insurance and paid for it with money from tobacco taxes. In 1997, Kennedy reworked the plan - making a state by state plan rather than national - with Orrin Hatch, who was against tobacco and for children.

Kennedy and Hatch - along with cosponsors Kerry and Dodd got the bill through the Senate and it passed the House.

The important thing that HRC did was that she spoke in favor of the bill publicly and she is said to have pushed Bill to include the funding piece in the budget.

[libdem4life]

18. I'm struggling with this, as well,as we cannot afford to lost these midterms and futz around trying

to find someone that has the interest, will, skill, experience, funds, name recognition and the sheer intensity it's going to take to take on the Republicans in 2016. They have no shame, truth or ideas...as the Cruzes are bound to breed and multiply.

I can't think of a Progressive ... just by sheer depth of character and compassionate as I find them to be ... would even want to take on this political sludge fest upcoming. There is only one United States Senator listed on the Progressive Caucus...Bernie Sanders. We need 8 years and a couple of mid-terms to fill out and entrench the Progressive Caucus. That should be a litmus test, IMO, of a candidate who wants real Progressive support. Are they willing to put their name and work on the Caucus. The Suicide Caucus surely does.

I think it will be the dirtiest we have ever seen. Cruz has set the bar very high for audacity and flim flam and sheer prevarication. Yes, the Republican Moderates are grousing here for a bit because he trumped their Aces. Yet I fear we may rejoice too long for outwitting them in the shutdown...which they never intended to go through with anyway...and fail to dig the Progressive trenches. Make no mistake, they will ALL be there and will take every Tea Party vote and crazy rally they can get...holding their noses, perhaps...but In It To Win It.

I lean Hillary because I feel she (add in Bill and likely Chelsea) is capable of taking and giving in the slugfest to come, and likely willing to run. She has developed thick political skin (as has Chelsea who had to grow up being mocked as ugly by Rush Limbaugh as a mere child) and my guess is that the people have pretty much heard it all, (how many more times can we hear about the Rose Law Firm?) she survived, increased her political stature and capital and represented us well on the international stage.

I also remembered HillaryCare. She and Bill overplayed their hand too soon after the election. She is at least as intelligent as Cruz and does not lack hutzpah. But, reality was that she was not "in" politics and it was too Liberal for its time. From the health care standpoint as of today...this is where I finally will make my decision. Who is the most likely to bring single payer to our country in the next 8 years? It won't be Jeb Bush, that's for sure.

As to her work with women...I haven't watched it much, but what I do know is that being the first woman President of the United States is by far the most important lesson in female leadership...standing up with the G-8 or G-20 as the most powerful person in the world. That well serves to elevate the status of women, as did a black President for blacks around the globe.

I'm not a purist...I say a D is better than an R when it gets to the office of President, appointing cabinet members, setting our economic future, progressing this ACA health insurance compromise, and naming a couple of SCOTUS.

And this is for sure as to the Corporate Funds discussion..They All Every Single One of Them have to take corporate funds and do some kowtowing or they just don't make it. That's the reality today and probably for some time. It's naive to think or pretend that's not the case. I think 8 years of a Democratic Administration, especially a strong one with coattails, is our best bet as the way to grow our Progressive Caucus from the ground up and actually get a few Democratic Senators willing to sign on to the list.

I am In It To Win It for the Democrats. That's my opinion and it's always subject to change, as I am a true Liberal. Also, what better way to send the lemmings right off the cliff than the term ... Madame President. Elizabeth Warren and Sherrod Brown, I believe, have stated they are not running.

If not Hillary, then who?

[leftyohiolib]

19. isnt she stil for TPP

[Pretzel_Warrior]

21. Hillarycare was swept aside by Dems--not just the right

[hedgehog]

22. What are her relations with the current crop of Democratic Senators

and Congressmen?

[Pretzel_Warrior]

23. Very strong

[hedgehog]

24. That's a plus for her.

[BainsBane]

25. She stands for education, an end to human trafficking and slavery

You don't seem to have followed Clinton's career very closely and are now and are now blaming her because you don't know what she did. As for women's rights as Secretary of State, there is a lot available online. For example:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/03/06/hillary-clintons-mission-to-help-women-and-girls-worldwide.html

You also seem to confuse a Senator's responsibility with those of a congressman. A Senator isn't supposed to look after your district. Their responsibilities are national and state-wide.

As for leaving the "scene" in 1993, she wasn't elected. The GOP raised hell because the First Lady, a non-elected official, played a key policy role.

The criticism of Hillary Clinton exceeds that of any other politician in the Democratic Party. It's obvious to me that people blame women where they wouldn't blame a male politician.

[HappyMe]

41. Oh, and there it is!

"...blame women where they wouldn't blame a male politician."

I have been waiting for misplaced, unfair accusations of sexism or misogyny leveled at anyone who has a legitimate criticism of Clinton.

Do you read DU at all? Male politicians take the heat here every day, all day.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

27. You have two kids who are unemployed and paying off student loans? I assume that they are

unemployed because of the policy of shipping jobs to foreign countries and not because of any fault of their own. HRC voted to protect the bankers by changing the law and making student-loan debts nondischarable in bankruptcy.

More information can be found here:
http://www.examiner.com/article/congressional-dems-unite-to-swindle-young-occupy-wall-streeters-w-loans

[hedgehog]

29. Underemployed, but yeah.

Edit - i went to the link and checked the list. Given some of the names on it, there must have been some serious swapping of votes for other items and/or big pressure from donors.

I think student loans should be repaid - but we need lower tuitions or higher grants plus low interest rates!

[AnotherMcIntosh]

36. I think that student loans should be repaid, but that traditional rules should be applied. I believe

that judges should apply reasoning and common sense to determine when debts should be discharged in bankruptcy. I believe that we should not have one set of rules for the Donald Trumps of the world and another, more oppressive set of rules for those who took out student loans.

In situations where people are unemployed through no fault of their own, I believe that judges should not be precluded from evaluating whether student loan debts can be discharged in bankruptcy.

[Laelth]

51. Hear, hear! n/t

-Laelth

[SheilaT]

31. My biggest problem with her is that she is simply

same old same old.

I do not see her pushing new ideas or really fighting for the little people. Unlike, say Alan Grayson or Elizabeth Warren.

What distresses me the most about the constant gushing here on DU about how she is so inevitably the 2016 Democratic Nominee, is a complete lack of understanding of history, especially electoral history. I'll recap.

In 1991, in the aftermath of the Gulf War, George HW Bush's popularity was so amazing that it was obvious that he was going to be re-elected, so every single potential Democratic candidate quietly withdrew from the race. Remember his second term? Oh, that's right, some other little known Democratic decided to challenge him.

In 2001, while we were all still smarting from the stolen election the year before, it was conventional wisdom here on DU that Gore would run again and win this time. Except he didn't. Run again that is.

In 2005, still angry over the election being stolen a second time, it was conventional wisdom here on DU that Kerry would run again and win this time.

In 2007 the conventional wisdom here was that Hillary was the only person who could possibly run a successful Democratic campaign for President and there was no point in considering anyone else. So what happened?

In all these cases reality happened. The person assumed to be the obvious next candidate either didn't run or didn't run well enough to get the nomination. For us as a party to make up our minds three years before the next election that one and only one person is the obvious choice is to overlook a lot of good possibilities.

I'm against Hillary on various pragmatic grounds, including the fact that she gave it her best shot in 2008 and lost. She made a good Secretary of State and she should enjoy her retirement.

While I personally favor Elizabeth Warren and Alan Grayson, I am going to be open to whoever actually chooses to run.

It's bad enough that Barack Obama has employed so many people from the past in his administration. If Hillary Clinton becomes President, we won't really have had a new person in office since her husband Bill.

At the risk of trashing lawyers in general, she's a lawyer who worked essentially in corporate law for many years, and so her world view is colored by that experience.

[hedgehog]

32. In point of fact, there were a number of people in the race in 1991 -

I took my kids up to Syracuse to see Jerry Brown. Governor Mario Cuomo was a possible candidate until the very last minute - the plane was sitting on the runway to take him to New Hampshire to file. It was rumored in New York that the reason he didn't run was that the Clinton camp threatened to tie members of Cuomo's family to the Mob.

Pat Schroeder wanted to run, but decided that it just wasn't going to happen.

That was before broadband and I think money had a lot to do with Bill Clinton's eventual success.

[SheilaT]

34. Mario Cuomo was a possible

candidate, and I was very much looking forward to his running, but that's all he was. A possible candidate. He did not run. The rumor you quote is just that, a rumor, and I'm going to guess has no actual basis.

Of the few politicians who ran in 1992, only Jerry Brown and Paul Tsongas won any significant primaries or caucuses. And they were, in all honesty, third tier candidates. As was Clinton, except that he got the nomination and then won the election.

I am forever sorry that Jay Rockefeller has never become President.

[ohheckyeah]

40. "I do not see her pushing new ideas or really fighting for the little people."

You haven't looked very hard. She's spent a lifetime fighting for women and children.

[Blue_Tires]

38. Also, given all the current anti-NSA sentiment in the public

The revelation that she spied on everyone of note at the UN won't help...

[stillcool]

39. I can not help..

Admiring her. As government affairs go, where has she not been, and what has she not done? She's wicked smart, has a great sense of humor, and speaks with such a strong sense of a confident self. Some of the things I like most about her, are also the things I like the least. She is ruthless and ambitious. She will play dirty. She will pal around with anyone for a price, so...in other words, with all her imperfections she's a perfect politician. Certainly not a "progressive's" dream, but within the confines of our government, as good as anyone, and better than most.

[kiranon]

43. Hillary in 2016. Yes!

Do not think anyone could have gotten health care through when Hillary tried. At least she tried. She's plenty tough. She may not run so the issue is moot. So, if not Hillary, who are you thinking would make a better candidate?

[hedgehog]

46. I've been told that the two people I like are not going to run,

so I have no new names ready just now.

But - if the best we can say about Hillary is that no one else wants to run, we're in trouble. If the best we can say is some variation of "it's her turn", we're toast. I think Hillary supporters should consider threads like this an opportunity to test out what sells. Convince us doubters here on DU, then you'll be ready to convince other people in real life. This is supposed to be a place for discussion, not an echo chamber.

[coldmountain]

45. Hillary will run and be the most formidable candidate in history

[Taverner]

48. She will shoot the republicans with laser beams in her eyes

And an interesting skill of Hillary's is that she can weigh whatever she wants, and go from weighing nothing to infinity pounds

[winter is coming]

49. We were told that in the run-up to '08. How'd that work out for her? n/t

[Logical]

55. LOL, she will not even be the nominee. n-t

[Taverner]

47. Agreed

[regnaD kciN]

52. Those who were around in 2008 would remember that I wasn't the biggest fan of HRC…

…but this OP is downright silly, particularly in wondering why she "left the field entirely" after the defeat of the 1993 health-care proposal Uh…maybe it was because she didn't hold a position in the government except as an advisor to WJC on health-care, and, once that task was over, she didn't have a position to fill? What did you expect her to do -- set up her own office somewhere and pretend to run the government?

[DonCoquixote]

54. I do not hate her

and yes, if she wins the primary, I will vote for her in 2016. Let me say that again. I will not play the Third party game, because I still remember how that got us President W.

However, when you have someone who has acted only slightly less hostile to the left than the GOP has, how do you expect enthusiasm?

[Sheldon Cooper]

57. As this thread shows, HRC has stood for more than 'just' women's rights.

But even if she hadn't, is there something wrong with 'just' standing for women's rights? I think that's an important enough cause to be involved in, all by itself. Your criticism makes no sense.

And oh yeah, how old were you in 1993? If you were old enough, you surely remember the uproar over HRC having any role in government. The right wing crazies were incensed that a first lady would dare to get involved in anything other than decorating the Blue Room and tending the Rose Garden.