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Fri Oct 4, 2013, 09:51 AM

The Capitol Incident: "They didn't have to shoot her."

There are serious questions as to whether Miriam Carey, the woman at the center of yesterday's incident, could have been detained without getting shot to death. They could have shot out her tires, etc. Plus, there has been a terribly large number of incidents of police shooting the shit out of whatever they please without any conceivable justification. I hope there is an intensive investigation.

...but for the moment, I am going to play Devil's Advocate. She attempted to breach the White House security perimeter, failed, and sped toward the Capitol building. Now, think like a DC cop...in the age of car bombs.

They didn't know she was unarmed. They could very well have thought she was sitting in front of a trunkload of explosives with her finger on a button. She didn't stop, she wouldn't stop, she kept pointing her car at very important buildings.

Security in DC, from top to bottom, is heavily geared toward protection from car bombs. That's why Pennsylvania Avenue has been closed since the OKC and WTC bombings in the 90s. That's why those stone and metal barriers are ubiquitous.

I'm no mind-reader, but I'd bet my bank account that's what those security officers were thinking. I wish Ms. Carey was still alive, if for no other reason than to ask her what that whole thing was all about...

...but if you're the cop who didn't take the shot, and that car blew something or someone up, you'd be a suicide waiting to happen, and everyone would be asking why you didn't fire.

Thoughts?

194 replies, 7986 views

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Reply The Capitol Incident: "They didn't have to shoot her." (Original post)
WilliamPitt Oct 2013 OP
srican69 Oct 2013 #1
el_bryanto Oct 2013 #7
COLGATE4 Oct 2013 #66
SoLeftIAmRight Oct 2013 #155
kestrel91316 Oct 2013 #166
joeglow3 Oct 2013 #10
Hayabusa Oct 2013 #152
IdaBriggs Oct 2013 #24
MoonRiver Oct 2013 #44
IdaBriggs Oct 2013 #49
MoonRiver Oct 2013 #57
IdaBriggs Oct 2013 #62
MoonRiver Oct 2013 #71
TheDebbieDee Oct 2013 #161
thecrow Oct 2013 #81
MoonRiver Oct 2013 #85
Comrade Grumpy Oct 2013 #180
Comrade Grumpy Oct 2013 #183
matt819 Oct 2013 #189
MoonRiver Oct 2013 #188
jeff47 Oct 2013 #95
ann--- Oct 2013 #139
dgibby Oct 2013 #162
dgibby Oct 2013 #149
kestrel91316 Oct 2013 #167
thecrow Oct 2013 #175
kestrel91316 Oct 2013 #187
thecrow Oct 2013 #194
GreenStormCloud Oct 2013 #173
alphafemale Oct 2013 #179
treestar Oct 2013 #113
progressivebydesign Oct 2013 #143
progressivebydesign Oct 2013 #141
KamaAina Oct 2013 #125
Peacetrain Oct 2013 #96
IdaBriggs Oct 2013 #112
progressivebydesign Oct 2013 #138
Niceguy1 Oct 2013 #2
newfie11 Oct 2013 #29
appleannie1 Oct 2013 #140
oneshooter Oct 2013 #169
avaistheone1 Oct 2013 #86
nadinbrzezinski Oct 2013 #87
progressivebydesign Oct 2013 #145
Niceguy1 Oct 2013 #171
hamsterjill Oct 2013 #88
apnu Oct 2013 #97
Orsino Oct 2013 #128
BeyondGeography Oct 2013 #3
randome Oct 2013 #4
jberryhill Oct 2013 #9
randome Oct 2013 #14
jberryhill Oct 2013 #19
randome Oct 2013 #25
KittyWampus Oct 2013 #100
loli phabay Oct 2013 #32
sinkingfeeling Oct 2013 #5
mikeysnot Oct 2013 #6
jberryhill Oct 2013 #8
CJCRANE Oct 2013 #13
jberryhill Oct 2013 #16
CJCRANE Oct 2013 #17
jberryhill Oct 2013 #20
CJCRANE Oct 2013 #23
The Straight Story Oct 2013 #26
CJCRANE Oct 2013 #35
GreenStormCloud Oct 2013 #177
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GreenStormCloud Oct 2013 #184
CJCRANE Oct 2013 #186
jberryhill Oct 2013 #31
CJCRANE Oct 2013 #38
jberryhill Oct 2013 #106
CJCRANE Oct 2013 #109
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RC Oct 2013 #68
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LuvNewcastle Oct 2013 #28
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Laura PourMeADrink Oct 2013 #104
Sissyk Oct 2013 #11
frazzled Oct 2013 #12
The Straight Story Oct 2013 #15
Eleanors38 Oct 2013 #70
geek tragedy Oct 2013 #18
Courtesy Flush Oct 2013 #21
wercal Oct 2013 #22
WilliamPitt Oct 2013 #27
hootinholler Oct 2013 #46
wercal Oct 2013 #51
RobinA Oct 2013 #127
jberryhill Oct 2013 #132
mnhtnbb Oct 2013 #43
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Marrah_G Oct 2013 #69
kmlisle Oct 2013 #118
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progressivebydesign Oct 2013 #153
wercal Oct 2013 #164
TorchTheWitch Oct 2013 #190
wercal Oct 2013 #191
MADem Oct 2013 #147
winter is coming Oct 2013 #156
Tree-Hugger Oct 2013 #73
wercal Oct 2013 #79
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Tree-Hugger Oct 2013 #107
markpkessinger Oct 2013 #174
wercal Oct 2013 #176
sendero Oct 2013 #30
mnhtnbb Oct 2013 #33
n2doc Oct 2013 #67
Paladin Oct 2013 #34
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seabeyond Oct 2013 #37
Raine1967 Oct 2013 #42
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ScreamingMeemie Oct 2013 #54
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Raine1967 Oct 2013 #55
seveneyes Oct 2013 #45
bigwillq Oct 2013 #50
HappyMe Oct 2013 #53
lapislzi Oct 2013 #56
DinahMoeHum Oct 2013 #72
Coyotl Oct 2013 #58
jeff47 Oct 2013 #102
bottomofthehill Oct 2013 #151
ScreamingMeemie Oct 2013 #59
Vinnie From Indy Oct 2013 #61
hootinholler Oct 2013 #63
discntnt_irny_srcsm Oct 2013 #65
nadinbrzezinski Oct 2013 #74
LineLineReply ?
WilliamPitt Oct 2013 #76
nadinbrzezinski Oct 2013 #80
Orsino Oct 2013 #144
nadinbrzezinski Oct 2013 #146
zappaman Oct 2013 #154
maddezmom Oct 2013 #158
grantcart Oct 2013 #75
Pretzel_Warrior Oct 2013 #77
sabrina 1 Oct 2013 #78
EX500rider Oct 2013 #134
mythology Oct 2013 #192
dinger130 Oct 2013 #89
jeff47 Oct 2013 #105
CarrieLynne Oct 2013 #92
heaven05 Oct 2013 #93
Demeter Oct 2013 #94
Egalitarian Thug Oct 2013 #98
Junkdrawer Oct 2013 #101
Skittles Oct 2013 #103
Spitfire of ATJ Oct 2013 #108
littlewolf Oct 2013 #110
onenote Oct 2013 #130
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progressoid Oct 2013 #115
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Orrex Oct 2013 #120
leveymg Oct 2013 #123
No Vested Interest Oct 2013 #124
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DireStrike Oct 2013 #133
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warrant46 Oct 2013 #142
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CC Oct 2013 #159
krispos42 Oct 2013 #160
Jamastiene Oct 2013 #170
B Calm Oct 2013 #172
Hekate Oct 2013 #181
SomethingFishy Oct 2013 #193

Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 09:54 AM

1. cops are exercising their god given right to shoot and kill anyone they please

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Response to srican69 (Reply #1)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 10:02 AM

7. What a well thought out and reasoned response

I really appreciate the depth with which you grappled with WilliamPitts question - and such pithiness. Very well done. You should certainly be proud of yourself, and definitely not think of yourself as a shallow knee jerk responding jerk.

Bryant

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #7)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 10:49 AM

66. This ^^^

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #7)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 01:30 PM

155. I worked for 6 years in the mental health ward of a jail.

We worked with local officers training them to identify and humanly interact with the mentally ill citizens. Some were good some were bad. In a heated situation untrained or fuckedup cops kill. It is that simple. I think cops kill many people that could be safely apprehended. I did not see this kill and can only guess - mother with child driving crazy??? Easy capture.

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #7)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 02:23 PM

166. +1 000 000 000

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Response to srican69 (Reply #1)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 10:07 AM

10. AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service

AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service

At Fri Oct 4, 2013, 09:56 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

cops are exercising their god given right to shoot and kill anyone they please
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3782756

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

This post is just completely over the top. There is no reason for this sort of garbage.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Fri Oct 4, 2013, 09:59 AM, and the Jury voted 1-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: While it is an extremely ignorant post, I don't believe there is anything against the ToS.
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Response to joeglow3 (Reply #10)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 01:28 PM

152. Damn, I thought that this would be about the snarky response to it.

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Response to srican69 (Reply #1)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 10:11 AM

24. * Who acts like a terrorist by trying to barrel through White House Security in a car. (nt)

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Response to IdaBriggs (Reply #24)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 10:19 AM

44. A crazy terrorist?



The cops did not know what they were dealing with. Washington just experienced a terrorist attack, and I'm sure police were on high alert. Like Will said I wish she were still alive, but I don't fault the cops for what they did.

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Response to MoonRiver (Reply #44)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 10:24 AM

49. I am not sure which one scares me the most - the "crazy" ones, or the "sane" ones.

My comment was supposed to be an asterisk to the guy who thinks the cops are just randomly killing people (with me pointing out she was acting like a terrorist).

I can't fault the police either. It is a tragedy on multiple levels.

May she rest in peace, and be seen as a martyr to those who aren't able to access mental health care.

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Response to IdaBriggs (Reply #49)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 10:32 AM

57. I see.

I also heard she hit her head in a fall. That on top of having a baby, experiencing post-partum depression, or, more likely, psychosis, being estranged from her husband, losing her job and possibly health insurance (guaranteeing she had limited access to mental health care), and we have a recipe for disaster.

Hoping her baby has a strong, loving family.

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Response to MoonRiver (Reply #57)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 10:37 AM

62. If only we had psychic police who could know all of that!

"This one isn't dangerous - she is just a little messed up now! That one - well, that one is messed up *and* ready to blow us all up! That one just likes to read trash romance novels and is fantasizing about ...."

On second thought - no psychic police!

Sigh. Agree about the baby. Wish her life had been better, and she could have gotten the help she needed before she tried to breach security around the capital / ran people over with her car.

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Response to IdaBriggs (Reply #62)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 10:59 AM

71. Yeah, don't know if I trust my police to be psychic!

After psychics are wrong more times than they are right.

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Response to IdaBriggs (Reply #62)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 01:36 PM

161. +1!

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Response to MoonRiver (Reply #57)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 11:29 AM

81. Couldn't they have used strong tranquilizer darts?

I'm frustrated by all the killing of these people who go nuts and do something stupid.
If there was a way to totally subdue them in the act, I feel that would be better than putting bullets into their bodies. IMHO, it could be a way to decipher just what made them snap and then apply better psychiatric healing to them. But in the heat of the moment, I understand why they shot her, I just wish it was not with bullets.

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Response to thecrow (Reply #81)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 11:32 AM

85. They didn't know what they were dealing with.

I was watching it as it happened, and I was 100% sure it was a terrorist, domestic or foreign, attack. I fully expected that car to explode at any moment.

Edit: Tranquilizers don't work instantly. If a suspect has a finger on a detonation device, s/he could fire it off before passing out.

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Response to MoonRiver (Reply #85)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 06:24 PM

180. Well, you were wrong, weren't you? But that lady is still dead.

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Response to Comrade Grumpy (Reply #180)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 06:28 PM

183. The police use of lethal force here demands an exhaustive investigation.

As it should in every case of police use of lethal force.

I don't think this lady had to be killed. I think police in general are too quick to resort to lethal force.

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Response to Comrade Grumpy (Reply #183)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 07:06 PM

189. I agree

The problem with an investigation - and there will be an investigation - is that it will conclude that the police acted properly. Internal police investigations always result in this conclusion.

Sure, there's the heat of the moment argument. And I can appreciate that these things happen in a matter of microseconds. But I can't help but wonder if at some point along the way a cooler head might not have taken lethal action.

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Response to Comrade Grumpy (Reply #180)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 07:00 PM

188. I was wrong, but I could have been right.

Are you OK with taking the chance?

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Response to thecrow (Reply #81)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 12:20 PM

95. No, those would kill tons of people

The level of tranquilizer required depends on the person's size and individual physiology. For example, anesthesiologists start with an estimate, and then usually have to tweak it a few times.

So you're left with an insufficient dosage, or a dosage high enough to kill. The situation would be many, many times worse than Tazers.

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Response to thecrow (Reply #81)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 01:17 PM

139. I agree

The cops were SO close to her car and looked inside of it. Didn't they see the little child in there? Why not use more effective methods to throw in front of her tires to puncture them? Why not shoot out the tires instead of into the car?

I was aghast when I heard that the person was unarmed. I realize a car bomb is not readily visible, and once she hit the police officer and he bounced off her hood, I could see why they'd feel the need to shoot, but why kill?

I don't understand it.

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Response to ann--- (Reply #139)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 01:40 PM

162. I seriously doubt they were looking in the back seat.

All attention should have been on the driver. In the video I saw, the tinted windows were up and the sun was shining. I don't know about that car, but my windows are legally tinted and depending on the angle of the sun, I can't see into my car. How were they to know she didn't have a gun or for that matter, a suicide vest? BTW, she WAS armed -with a 2,000lb car she was using as a battering ram, and she'd already managed to elude the police at the WH and at another stop where she injured a secret service agent.

As for her tires, she was traveling at 80mph in heavy DC traffic with police in hot pursuit. It takes time to lay down those strips and there would have been no way to stop her without causing police cars to wreck, too. She was going so fast that she was past the imbedded barriers near the Capitol before they could be automatically deployed. Unfortunately, one of the officers in pursuit did hit them, however, totaling his squad car and injuring himself.

I'm very sad that this young woman was having so many mental health problems and that she is dead. I feel badly for her family and all those involved in this tragic incident; however, I don't know how the police could have made any other decision under the circumstances that were known at the time.

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Response to thecrow (Reply #81)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 01:25 PM

149. Tranquilizer darts will not stop a person immediately,

only make them more dangerous before they blackout.

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Response to thecrow (Reply #81)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 02:28 PM

167. The drug used in tranquilizer darts for larger wild animals is EXTREMELY dangerous in humans.

In vet school we students were forbidden to handle or work with it. Federal law restricts its use to highly skilled and trained wildlife people and only certain highly trained veterinarians.

M99/etorphine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etorphine

If you accidentally prick your finger with it, you'll probably die.

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #167)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 06:12 PM

175. Well, obviously I would want them to use something less than lethal

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Response to thecrow (Reply #175)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 06:40 PM

187. Name the magical "something", please.

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #187)

Mon Oct 7, 2013, 07:37 AM

194. We're not talking about taking down "large wild animals"

You are. And your suggestion mentioned a lethal substance.
That's NOT what I was talking about.
So go somewhere else.

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Response to thecrow (Reply #81)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 05:59 PM

173. So you want tanq dart that will penetrate a car body?

They are called bullets.

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #173)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 06:20 PM

179. I had to rattle my head at that too. A dart that will pierce through a car and be non-lethal.

Ohhhh-kay.

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Response to MoonRiver (Reply #57)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 12:49 PM

113. Yep. Something was going to happen.

It is almost lucky no one else went with her - there are some injuries and fortunately the child is OK, though there may be psychological damage. But that child could easily have been a casualty.

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Response to MoonRiver (Reply #57)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 01:20 PM

143. she has a long history of mental illness... it wasn't the head injury. n/t

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Response to IdaBriggs (Reply #49)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 01:19 PM

141. she had mental health care...

she just apparently wasn't taking her meds. Don't make her a martyr. But we can question why the hell the anti-tax idiots and the activists, and Big Pharm, are so hellbent on having people who should be committed, living amongst us.. having children... and HOPING they don't go off their meds. This could have been much, much, worse, with many people killed.

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Response to MoonRiver (Reply #44)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 01:02 PM

125. If you were referring to the Navy Yard shooting, it was not a terrorist attack.

But it was an event that called for massive police response, so you are correct that they were still on edge.

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Response to IdaBriggs (Reply #24)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 12:21 PM

96. people who fly planes into buildings?

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Response to Peacetrain (Reply #96)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 12:48 PM

112. That would be one good example!

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Response to srican69 (Reply #1)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 01:17 PM

138. Umm okay.

So next time someone rams a barricade, and this time has a car bom, or AK-47, we'll let them know that you think a hug is a better option.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 09:54 AM

2. you have seconds to act decisively

She had already uaed her car as a weapon...I think the officers had no other choice...

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Response to Niceguy1 (Reply #2)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 10:14 AM

29. Exactly right

She could have run over or into innocent people.

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Response to newfie11 (Reply #29)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 01:18 PM

140. She had already hit a guard with her car. He is lucky to be alive.

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Response to newfie11 (Reply #29)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 02:58 PM

169. But remember that people killed by a car

don't count as much as people killed by a gun.

Why?

Because cars are not built to kill.

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Response to Niceguy1 (Reply #2)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 11:36 AM

86. They should have shot out her tires instead of killing the poor woman.

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Response to avaistheone1 (Reply #86)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 11:38 AM

87. See post 76

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Response to avaistheone1 (Reply #86)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 01:22 PM

145. oh please. That's TV BS. a car still drives on rims.

AND she could have jumped from the car and started shooting, or detonate a bomb. Stop watching so much tv.

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Response to avaistheone1 (Reply #86)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 05:41 PM

171. that doesn't stop a car

...

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Response to Niceguy1 (Reply #2)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 11:45 AM

88. Agreed

In the beginning of the amateur video that's being shown on several networks, you can clearly see several officers have to jump out of the way of her car when she throws it in reverse and gives it the gas.

It's a sad and horrible situation all the way around. But I will not fault the police's response to this because I've never had to walk in their shoes. They are having to make split second decisions to the best of their ability. And yes, there are some bad eggs who are police officers.

But in this instance, the woman started the problem. They had no way of knowing that she suffered from mental illness. It is impossible for them to have viewed underneath the seat of the car, etc., and had they shot the tires, she might still have exited the vehicle with a gun. They simply did not have enough information to know WHAT they were going to have to deal with.

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Response to Niceguy1 (Reply #2)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 12:24 PM

97. When all you have is seconds... that's when training is supposed to kick in.

As any martial arts practitioner.

The cops were probably trained for this. Not specifically, nobody trains to specifically gun people down in the street like that, but I'm sure some level of training kicked in and the cop was working on autopilot. Its a systemic failure to be sure. I'm quite sure all the cops in the area felt their lives were threatened and acted quite naturally.

I'm not excusing the tragedy, nor am I giving the responding cops and their training a pass either. Reality lies between the two extremes.

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Response to Niceguy1 (Reply #2)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 01:06 PM

128. Anywhere else but the White House gates...

...the folks with guns would have had more latitude. Until the driver's death, her behavior looked a lot like that of a terrorist intent on detonating some device.

No good options were available, and that sucks.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 09:54 AM

3. Wrong place to expect the benefit of the doubt

Agree with your summary.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 09:55 AM

4. I wonder how shooting out tires works in real life as opposed to action movies.

Wouldn't there be a danger of a ricochet? Especially when they had her cornered and surrounded by half a dozen officers.

A ton of bricks, a ton of feathers. It's still gonna hurt.

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Response to randome (Reply #4)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 10:04 AM

9. Shooting almost anything in real life is problematic


But they did a piss poor job of surrounding her the first time.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #9)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 10:08 AM

14. All they had were bodies the first time. And she basically plowed through one officer.

They probably violated procedure by not shooting her then and there. They went the extra mile to give her a chance to stop, IMO.

A ton of bricks, a ton of feathers. It's still gonna hurt.

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Response to randome (Reply #14)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 10:10 AM

19. They had vehicles in the CNN video

By "first time" you mean at the White House or on the west side of the Capitol?

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #19)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 10:12 AM

25. Wherever it was that the six officers surrounded the car and pointed guns at her.

Sure, maybe they could have done a better job of barricading her in but everything's easier in hindsight. They still went out of their way to give her a chance to stop.

A ton of bricks, a ton of feathers. It's still gonna hurt.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #9)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 12:28 PM

100. shooting almost anything MOVING in real life is even more problematic.

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Response to randome (Reply #4)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 10:15 AM

32. it does not work well especially with a handgun, a long gun is better

 

But even then its hard to hit and the thing is tires are rubber so stuff bounces of including rounds if they dont hit square on.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 09:55 AM

5. We need ACA to help deal with the mentally ill in this country.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 10:00 AM

6. I wonder with all the defense barriers in place

they don't have those road spikes that come up to rip tires off?

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 10:02 AM

8. Shooting a bomber is not a good idea either

"They could very well have thought she was sitting in front of a trunkload of explosives with her finger on a button"

And that finger could be holding a switch closed which, if opened, would set off the bomb.

Disarming a bomb with a gun is extremely stupid.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #8)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 10:08 AM

13. What would you do in that situation? nt

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Response to CJCRANE (Reply #13)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 10:09 AM

16. I would construct the bomb to go off if I was killed

I don't understand your question, as I thought I made that clear

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #16)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 10:09 AM

17. If you were a police officer in that situation?

Plus how could you hold a switch and drive at 80mph at the same time?

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Response to CJCRANE (Reply #17)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 10:10 AM

20. Oh, I wouldn't be a police officer in that situation

I would be the bomber

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #20)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 10:11 AM

23. How would you hold a switch and drive at the same time? nt

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Response to CJCRANE (Reply #23)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 10:13 AM

26. pretend it is a cell phone (nt)

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Response to The Straight Story (Reply #26)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 10:15 AM

35. Yes, that's possible but evasive driving holding a cell phone is unlikely

as you need both hands on the steering wheel to do tight turns etc. especially driving at 80mph in an urban environment.

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Response to CJCRANE (Reply #35)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 06:17 PM

177. Use a steering wheel spinner knob.

In the 1950s they were fairly common on young men's cars. Of course this is a modern car so outfitted.


Here are some from then:



On those models the plastic top could be popped off and your favorite picture inserted.

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #177)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 06:25 PM

182. If you can drive at 80mph with one hand on the wheel while evading the cops

and concentrate on holding something in your other hand while also reversing and pulling 180 degree turns at high speed...

then you're a better man or woman than me.

In reality, I think the device would go off prematurely.

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Response to CJCRANE (Reply #182)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 06:29 PM

184. Likely, it would go off prematurely. But those spinners do add much to a driver's ability to turn.

N/T

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #184)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 06:33 PM

186. True. I can imagine they would be useful during normal driving conditions. nt

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Response to CJCRANE (Reply #23)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 10:15 AM

31. If I don't push the button every 45 seconds it goes off

Easy 555 timer circuit on a breadboard.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #31)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 10:16 AM

38. So the cops should've just let the car reach it's presumed target? nt

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Response to CJCRANE (Reply #38)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 12:37 PM

106. She wasn't shot until the car was immobilized


Unless the presumed target was a median strip.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #106)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 12:43 PM

109. Did you see the video? The car wasn't immobilized, it was driving away from the cops AFAIK.

The cops were on foot. They had her car surrounded but she reversed into a cop car suddenly then accelerated forward through the group of cops (possibly hitting one of them).

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Response to CJCRANE (Reply #109)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 12:49 PM

114. That video wasn't where she was shot

That was on the west side of the Capitol. After going around the circle and driving off at the end of that video, she turned up Constitution, and THEN crashed and was immobilized.

After she was immobilized - THAT was when she was shot.

Did YOU see the video? Nobody is shooting in that video, and it should be pretty obvious that she is still alive at the end of that video, because she is still driving.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #114)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 12:53 PM

116. I saw the one from yesterday where she drove behind some trees and we heard some gunshots.

Maybe it was edited because in that video it seemed like she didn't drive far before the shooting started.

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Response to CJCRANE (Reply #116)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 12:57 PM

121. Eventually, the motorcycles catch up and one guy breaks the windshield with his helmet

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #121)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 01:03 PM

126. That was a different incident. Methinks you're just being contrarian for the sake of it.

That's a fun thing to do but doesn't add to the discussion.

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Response to CJCRANE (Reply #126)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 01:07 PM

129. Yes, it is as relevant as

referring me to "the one I saw yesterday".

If you have a video of the shooting which you would like to use as a reference for this discussion, then please provide a link to it.

The video made by the Arabic speaking tourist is nowhere near where the shooting happened, and does not include the shooting.

So if you want to ask me "Did you see the video?" in reference to the shooting, then the answer is "No, I did not". Neither did you. Would you like to provide some reference to the video of the shooting?

Because if you are not going to do that, then we might as well watch the SUV chased by motorcycles for all the relevance it has to the situation extant at the time of the shooting of this person.

To recap:

I said the car was not moving when she was shot. She had crashed and was going nowhere.

You claim a video contradicts me.

What video?

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #129)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 01:15 PM

135. You could be right.

I'm not here to prove a point.

I'll watch the TV news tonight to see if there's any more information.

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Response to CJCRANE (Reply #135)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 01:54 PM

163. Or you could simply read the story accompanying the video at CNN

"Dramatic video footage by a videographer for Alhurra TV, a Middle Eastern news outlet financed by the U.S. government, showed the black vehicle then speeding around a nearby traffic circle with a police car in close pursuit and then heading away. The car crashed into more security barriers a few blocks later, witnesses said.

More shots were fired after the vehicle stopped, and the woman was hit several times, said Metropolitan Police Department Chief Cathy Lanier. Carey was later pronounced dead, Lanier said. Two officers were injured."

She got a "few blocks" away from the location of the video which you insist shows the shooting. Unless the guy with the camera is one heck of a sprinter, the video you reference is not relevant to the location and circumstances of the terminal phase of this event.

Other still pictures from where she ended up shows the car on a median.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #163)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 02:11 PM

165. Thanks for the info. The shots in the video were fired while the car was moving.

So either:

a) those were the shots that incapacitated the driver causing her to crash
b) or those shots had no effect and she drove off for a few blocks, crashed somewhere else and was then shot at again and was finally incapacitated.

The shots in the video were fired literally seconds after she pulled away, precluding option (b) if they were the fatal shots.

Option (b) might still be correct but I don't have time to analyze it right now.

I think I'll still watch the TV news update later on when I get a chance.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #31)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 10:51 AM

68. Or better yet, hold the switch open with your right foot.

 

It doesn't have anything else to do.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #31)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 01:25 PM

148. your attention to detail is rather frightening... n/t

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #20)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 11:50 AM

90. Of course if she had escaped again and driven into a group of pedestrians

then there would be those asking why didn't they shoot her to stop her?

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Response to KinMd (Reply #90)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 12:53 PM

117. Absolutely!

That is so absolutely right. Some people just hate cops and second guess their every decision in every case.

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Response to treestar (Reply #117)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 01:27 PM

150. Bingo! and if they hadn't done it and she killed the baby, they'd blame the cops nt

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #16)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 10:17 AM

40. I think CJ's asking about a strategy in confronting a bomber

Accepting the likelihood of a dead man trigger (which is more lethal if a delay is involved).

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #8)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 10:14 AM

28. That's what I was thinking. If they thought she had the car rigged with

explosives, shooting her was the wrong thing to do. I don't know what was going through their minds, but killing someone should be a last resort, and it just seemed like they were shooting without thinking. I'm wondering if those cops were ordered to kill her.

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Response to LuvNewcastle (Reply #28)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 10:24 AM

48. What would be the right thing t do?

Escort her to her destination?

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Response to pintobean (Reply #48)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 10:42 AM

64. I just think they could have found a way to stop her without killing her.

I'm sure there were people assessing the situation who told the cops to shoot her, so that's what they did. Maybe next time they'll have better plans in place to deal with situations like that.

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Response to LuvNewcastle (Reply #64)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 06:18 PM

178. I am usually the first to criticize excessive use of force by police; however, in this case . . .

. . . I don't really see as how the police had much choice. She was an immediate threat to the public, and the first responsibility police have in a situation like that is to stop that threat. It's enough to say 'they could have found a way to stop her without killing her," or that they should have had "better plans in place," when you aren't tasked with the job of finding those alternate means or formulating those better plans, and doing so in a manner that still accomplishes the objective of neutralizing the threat to the public.

Don't get me wrong: I think the entire situation is a very sad and tragic event and a horrible indictment of the state of mental healthcare in this country. But we can't really expect police, in the context of an unfolding security and public safety emergency, to compensate for those wider societal shortcomings.

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Response to LuvNewcastle (Reply #28)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 11:31 AM

83. They were doing their job. Which would be keep a bomb from getting to the target.

Even if it means it goes off in their face. Think Secret Service stepping between their protectee and a person with a gun and then "making themself big", to block as much area as they can.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #8)

Fri Oct 4, 2013, 10:18 AM

41. hate to disagree with you, but the choice is to shoot the bomber even if there is a dead man switch

 

And have it go off or let the bomb reach its target or a more populated area and the bomb still goes off, even if you persuade the bomber to give up theres a good chance there is a backup trigger that is controlled by a third party watching. There are no win win scenarios when dealing with this stuff.

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