Fisa judge: Snowden's NSA disclosures triggered important spying debate

[BelgianMadCow]

Dennis Saylor orders government to review rules on surveillance and says further declassification would protect court's integrity

The court that oversees US surveillance has ordered the government to review for declassification a set of secret rulings about the National Security Agency's bulk trawls of Americans' phone records, acknowledging that disclosures by the whistleblower Edward Snowden had triggered an important public debate.

The Fisa court ordered the Justice Department to identify the court's own rulings after May 2011 that concern a section of the Patriot Act used by the NSA to justify its mass database of American phone data. The ruling was a significant step towards their publication.

The Guardian

I concur.

[cloudbase]

1. As do I. n/t

[gulliver]

2. No link. No value. nt

[BelgianMadCow]

3. Oh thanks for the pointer

[gulliver]

6. Ok. Guardian. Still no value.

No offense, but the Guardian is worthless. It's whole business is now gambled on Snowden/Greenwald. Nothing they say on the matter can be given any weight because of this conflict of interest.

[Bluenorthwest]

10. That's so funny. The Guradian has been around since 1821.

It's just funny how you think.

[BelgianMadCow]

11. That's an interesting point of view

The Guardian has (for a long time, iirc) been in financial dire straits, so that makes your statement 'their business is gambled on it" not that far-fetched.

But even if that would slant their opinion pieces etc, do you actually think they pulled the FISA judge statements from thin air?

I see Salon also carries it, but let me check for other links.

[BelgianMadCow]

12. LINK (ACLU): "FISA Court Orders Declassification Review of Rulings on NSA Spying"

WASHINGTON – In an important decision, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court ordered the government to review for release the court's opinions on the meaning, scope, and constitutionality of Section 215 of the Patriot Act. The ruling is on a motion filed by the American Civil Liberties Union, the ACLU of the Nation's Capital, and Yale Law School's Media Freedom and Access Information Clinic. Section 215, which authorizes the government to obtain "any tangible things" relevant to foreign-intelligence or terrorism investigations, is the claimed legal basis for the NSA's mass phone records collection program.

"We are pleased that the surveillance court has recognized the importance of transparency to the ongoing public debate about the NSA's spying," said Alex Abdo, staff attorney with the ACLU National Security Project. "For too long, the NSA's sweeping surveillance of Americans has been shrouded in unjustified secrecy. Today's ruling is an overdue rebuke of that practice. Secret law has no place in our democracy."

ACLU

[fascisthunter]

19. lol... thanks, now I know who or what is actually credible on this discussion

so slow...

[DisgustipatedinCA]

22. Liberals disagree with you.

[NealK]

23. How about that paper:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2013/09/13/the-fisa-court-will-release-more-opinions-because-of-snowden/

[MannyGoldstein]

4. "Make No Mistake™... only by secret laws can we maintain transparency..."

"Right Jamie? Right Lloyd?"

Note to the severely parody-impaired: the above is parody, not an actual quote. Take a deep breath.

[BelgianMadCow]

5. What! You must be a follower of the "Doctrine of Occult Infallibility"

"Court documents released this week show that after its first three years of operation, the best the intelligence establishment could show the judge overseeing the program was that it had led to opening "three new preliminary investigations". This showing, noted Judge Walton in his opinion, "does not seem very significant".

If this was the best the intelligence community could put on the table when it faced the risk of judicial sanction, we can assume that all the hand-waving without hard, observable, testable facts is magician's patter, aimed to protect the fruits of a decade's worth of bureaucratic expansionism. Claims that secrecy prevents the priesthood from presenting such testable proof appeal to a doctrine of occult infallibility that we cannot afford to accept."

Also from the Guardian, "Time to tame the NSA behemoth".

[MisterP]

8. not even Cornelius Fudge lay claim to that doctrine

[Hutzpa]

13. The SHADOW Government is in complete control

that's for sure, no matter who gets elected as president they're still calling the shot, how unfortunate to
have created a monster that has gone out of control.

At this point one will have to ask if the Director of NSA is in control of this monster?

[joeybee12]

7. Great...we have a Fisa Judge who loves Putin, too...the inhumanity!

[forestpath]

9. K&R

[Octafish]

14. Police State UKUSA

Friendliest Fascism on The Planet

[BelgianMadCow]

16. I'm thinking more along the lines of Sheldon Wolin

"Inverted totalitarianism reverses things. It is all politics all of the time but a politics largely untempered by the political. Party squabbles are occasionally on public display, and there is a frantic and continuous politics among factions of the party, interest groups, competing corporate powers, and rival media concerns. And there is, of course, the culminating moment of national elections when the attention of the nation is required to make a choice of personalities rather than a choice between alternatives. What is absent is the political, the commitment to finding where the common good lies amidst the welter of well-financed, highly organized, single-minded interests rabidly seeking governmental favors and overwhelming the practices of representative government and public administration by a sea of cash."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism

Glas to see you post to the thread, gives me the chance to ask you: how, the eff, do you keep all your news & facts organized?

Your posts are an inspiration, and I consider them among DUs best.

[fascisthunter]

20. there was a PBS special years ago

in which fascism was being tauted as a viable option for the US by a Keynsian opponent. I can't remember names but I was fucking blown away by the outright audacity to even admit such a sentiment. It was about ten years or so ago... and now here we are.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

15. Now we need someone to review the reviewer, and then someone to review the reviewer of the reviewer.

[KoKo]

17. Recommend!

[Uncle Joe]

18. Kudos to the ACLU and Judges that respect the Constitution.

It's so ludicrous to believe that any nation governed by the rule of law can classify, making secret the Constitutionality of its' own reasoning.

How can any citizen then prove harm and hold said government accountable to the rule of law?

That speaks volumes as to their lack of faith in their own policies, the people and the Constitution itself.

The ACLU is seeking more: namely, Fisa court "opinions evaluating the meaning, scope and constitutionality of section 215 of the Patriot Act."

Thanks for the thread, BelgianMadCow.

[backscatter712]

21. And he dated a stripper! And he had boxes in his garage!

And he drinks red wine with chicken!

[NealK]

24. You're wrong.

In fact he dated a box and had strippers drinking wine in his garage.

[Katashi_itto]

27. No no, both wrong!

The Wine was dating the strippers and he was on top of the garage.

[Wilms]

25. ^

[WillyT]

26. K & R !!!

[liberal_at_heart]

28. K&R