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Wed Sep 11, 2013, 10:24 PM

What a remarkable piece of writing in Putin's Editorial at the NYT

No one wants the United Nations to suffer the fate of the League of Nations, which collapsed because it lacked real leverage. This is possible if influential countries bypass the United Nations and take military action without Security Council authorization.


This can be read in many ways, but undermining the Security Council indeed could lead to that. And the calls from many in the US to get out of the UN might no longer be seen as just mere posturing.

A strike would increase violence and unleash a new wave of terrorism. It could undermine multilateral efforts to resolve the Iranian nuclear problem and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and further destabilize the Middle East and North Africa. It could throw the entire system of international law and order out of balance.


I just suffered a back to the future backlash. This is exactly the language used in the 1930s by multiple diplomatic corps as Germany started to arm itself. And the reference to the time the US and the USSR fought together to defeat the axis was all but accidental. This essay is directed at the US Government, but also directed at those who know history.

Under current international law, force is permitted only in self-defense or by the decision of the Security Council. Anything else is unacceptable under the United Nations Charter and would constitute an act of aggression.


Again, this is a case that many of us have made here. So do not tell me that this is love of Putin. Anybody who understands the current global order gets that. And yes, the system is that much at threat. This is remarkable, and I am sure chattering classes at usual places are doing the same I am doing. We get it. It is also a tool of diplomacy. I would love to see an answer from POTUS in Isvestia, with a co-release in English at the WH. Let's have this in Russian.

It is alarming that military intervention in internal conflicts in foreign countries has become commonplace for the United States. Is it in America’s long-term interest? I doubt it. Millions around the world increasingly see America not as a model of democracy but as relying solely on brute force, cobbling coalitions together under the slogan “you’re either with us or against us.”


Those of us who travel outside of US Borders get it. We have heard this more than once, and far more often than I care to think anymore. The US is seen as a brutish Empire who is striking when not getting it's way. So yes, I can assert with full confidence that this is the mood abroad.

As to the rest, the last paragraph, referencing the Declaration of Independence in an oblique way and being completely critical of the city on the hill, America is exceptional myth is also common currency abroad. The IDEALS of the US are still admired. The US itself, not so much.

I would quote more, but that would be a violation of IP, even if in this case, this should be treated as an official government document.

What is more remarkable is that we have rarely seen this before. And when we have it's been at the brink.

For the rest of the essay go here. It IS a most read

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/12/opinion/putin-plea-for-caution-from-russia-on-syria.html?ref=opinion&_r=0

191 replies, 5374 views

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Reply What a remarkable piece of writing in Putin's Editorial at the NYT (Original post)
nadinbrzezinski Sep 2013 OP
msongs Sep 2013 #1
CakeGrrl Sep 2013 #3
nadinbrzezinski Sep 2013 #6
SidDithers Sep 2013 #7
Summer Hathaway Sep 2013 #9
OilemFirchen Sep 2013 #14
orenbus Sep 2013 #16
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SunSeeker Sep 2013 #35
dionysus Sep 2013 #157
dionysus Sep 2013 #27
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geek tragedy Sep 2013 #23
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DLnyc Sep 2013 #8
joshcryer Sep 2013 #24
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Fla Dem Sep 2013 #104
ProSense Sep 2013 #5
OnyxCollie Sep 2013 #39
DevonRex Sep 2013 #10
sibelian Sep 2013 #51
DevonRex Sep 2013 #140
sibelian Sep 2013 #190
jsr Sep 2013 #11
JohnnyLib2 Sep 2013 #12
nadinbrzezinski Sep 2013 #13
2naSalit Sep 2013 #60
gulliver Sep 2013 #15
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joshcryer Sep 2013 #31
treestar Sep 2013 #73
quinnox Sep 2013 #18
geek tragedy Sep 2013 #21
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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Wed Sep 11, 2013, 10:39 PM

1. oh that Putin, just another paulist teabagging hater lol nt

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Response to msongs (Reply #1)

Wed Sep 11, 2013, 10:40 PM

3. Oh that Putin, who jails journalists and LGBT - but who cares today? He writes so great!!!

Count on DU to cozy up en masse to the latest anti-Obama development.

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Response to CakeGrrl (Reply #3)

Wed Sep 11, 2013, 10:43 PM

6. Well I guess Santayana would be in order

but I don't expect you to even know who Santayana was. But this is a remarkable piece, for reasons explained in the OP, but they went over your head. I can't wait for the haters at The Cable and The Atlantic Wire, to do the same I just did. After all those haters also know history, and the former in particular is directed at the Diplomatic Corp chiefly. You know the idiots who have to deal with them furiegners who are not that special or exceptional.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #6)

Wed Sep 11, 2013, 10:48 PM

7. "but I don't expect you to even know who Santayana was"...

FFS.

There are literally thousands of well-educated people at DU. Some, much better educated, and much more knowledgeable than even you.

Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #7)

Wed Sep 11, 2013, 11:00 PM

9. Well, I, for one, know very well who Santayana was ...

He was the guy who predicted ten meters of hailstones falling on Mexico City, an imminent war with North Korea, and the dangers of wind turbine blades flying up to a mile straight up in the air.

I believe he was also a "member of the press" at one point - but I could be mistaken.

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Response to Summer Hathaway (Reply #9)

Wed Sep 11, 2013, 11:30 PM

14. Sublime.

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Response to Summer Hathaway (Reply #9)

Wed Sep 11, 2013, 11:33 PM

16. I know who he was too

That's the guy that sang this song

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Response to orenbus (Reply #16)

Wed Sep 11, 2013, 11:39 PM

19. LOL!!! n/t

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Response to Summer Hathaway (Reply #9)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 12:16 AM

35. You are badass.

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Response to Summer Hathaway (Reply #9)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 02:48 PM

157. you win the thread. nt

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #7)

Wed Sep 11, 2013, 11:53 PM

27. and, they can correctly spell "rifle".

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Response to dionysus (Reply #27)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 11:56 AM

116. It's a kerfunkle, that's for sure...nt

Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #116)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 02:17 PM

146. Little known fact:

Simon & Kerfunkle sang back-up on Santayana's first LP.

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Response to Summer Hathaway (Reply #146)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 02:30 PM

148. 50 ways to leave your black magic woman...nt

Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #7)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 07:06 AM

87. Yes but..

... never ever ever conflate education and intelligence as so many people do. There are a lot of educated idiots out there and contrary to popular belief a "master's" degree is a measure of persistence, not necessarily intelligence.

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Response to CakeGrrl (Reply #3)

Wed Sep 11, 2013, 11:51 PM

26. Have I mentioned lately I love you? You nailed it! nt

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Response to babylonsister (Reply #26)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 06:51 AM

86. Thanks. From what I'm seeing,

when it comes to opposing the warmongering authoritarian failure that is President Obama, it's OK to stand in agreement with

Oath Keepers: racist militia
Sarah "Let Allah sort it out" Palin
Rand Paul
Vlad Putin

...while being the self-proclaimed truest defenders of human rights and the Constitution.

Massive logic fail.

I can only guess who'll be up next week, but if Van Jones retweeting Limbaugh supporters is any indication...

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Response to CakeGrrl (Reply #3)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 11:47 AM

114. Count on DU to separate message from messenger

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Response to KurtNYC (Reply #114)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 03:42 PM

164. +1000

sickening.

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Response to CakeGrrl (Reply #3)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 12:24 PM

128. Yeah like HE really wrote it

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Response to CakeGrrl (Reply #3)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 12:46 PM

139. Seriously!!

Putin is the OP's noble standard for what should be our political standard?

holy shit!!!

I hear N Korea's leaders have said a few good things in their time. Shall we add them to this new Rah Rah List? I'm almost positive Bin Laden said something nice and thoughtful too.

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Response to CakeGrrl (Reply #3)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 10:31 PM

187. It is nice when people do nuance and critical thinking instead of black and white. nt

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Response to msongs (Reply #1)

Wed Sep 11, 2013, 10:40 PM

4. Yup, that Putin.

the flashback to the 1930s was not funny.

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Response to msongs (Reply #1)

Wed Sep 11, 2013, 11:48 PM

23. No, just a gay-bashing dictator, but the enemy of your enemy is your

friend so he's a hero.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Wed Sep 11, 2013, 10:40 PM

2. His is the country that vetoed UN action!

And he does nothing to back up his points.

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Response to treestar (Reply #2)

Wed Sep 11, 2013, 10:56 PM

8. Technically, I think his is the country that might have vetoed the resolution that

was never brought because it might be vetoed.

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Response to DLnyc (Reply #8)

Wed Sep 11, 2013, 11:49 PM

24. Russia vetoed twice

of course you are correct that their veto prevented a vote many other times

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Response to treestar (Reply #2)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 12:10 AM

30. I can't believe Putin is getting support for doing exactly that.

I mean he's as two faced as any other.

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Response to treestar (Reply #2)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 10:46 AM

104. Yes, Yes, use the system my and the other democracy loving country of China continually throw

a monkey wrench into. Yes, Yes, my lovelies, please do play in my backyard.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Wed Sep 11, 2013, 10:43 PM

5. "Remarkable" fact-free propaganda. n/t



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Response to ProSense (Reply #5)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 12:40 AM

39. Needs more blue links. nt

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Wed Sep 11, 2013, 11:23 PM

10. OMG I will throw up.

Seriously. He's a fucking homophobic ex-KGB murderer. You can kiss his ass if you want to. I'm disgusted by the Putin worship, myself.

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Response to DevonRex (Reply #10)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 01:53 AM

51. I'm gay


And I think he makes more sense than you....

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Response to sibelian (Reply #51)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 01:00 PM

140. Seriously, you are gay and you think this man

believes all people are born equal? I'm sorry but that is fucked up. Because Putin very clearly does not believe all people are born equal. That business about "the Lord?" He enlisted the Russian Orthodox Church to help him persecute LGBTs in Russia. That's actually the only reason he gives 2 shits about religion - to use it to control people. To persecute people. And he's happy with Neo-Nazis clubbing LGBTs and then having them arrested.

Nice man, that Putin. Using the extremes of church doctrine and violent Nazism to deny human rights. And the man has the gall to think he can lecture US? Fuck him.

If you'd like, we can go back further, to what he did to the Ossetians and Georgians in 2008. The crazy bastard actually blamed that war on the United States, too. Back then people actually called him unstable. And then further back to the Second Chechen War. All the forced "disappearances" and the carpet bombing of cities with mass civilian casualties. That's why we've taken so many Chechen in here. Remember the Boston Bombing.

Speaking of which, there is something very wrong with that whole scenario. Very, very wrong. Funny how Putin claimed to have warned us when he actually gave us no information at all about what Tamerlan did while in Chechnya and Dagestan.

Vlad is a not for democracy or liberalism in any way, shape or form. Or don't you know how the votes were rigged in all the states when he was supposedly elected? And don't you realize that he's only in power now because he grabbed it from Medvedev? Russians went to bed with Medvedev and woke up with Putin. Done deal. They had no say. Read about it. Then the anti-gay law happened.

Then a Putin backer found corruption in his government and was imprisoned, denied medical care, beaten and found dead in his cell. Magnitsky was his name. Then there were purges of liberals in the social sciences, economics, journalism. Liberals have fled the country. And now they want to rip children away from their LGBT parents.

And you think Putin makes sense? I'm sorry but WTF? Really. WTF.

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Response to DevonRex (Reply #140)

Mon Sep 16, 2013, 02:15 PM

190. No, I have no illusions about his opinions about people like me.


But, like me, he himself is under no illusions about the United States of America.

As for his list of crimes, you are correct about all of them. None of them place you in a position to contradict the substance of his editorial.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Wed Sep 11, 2013, 11:25 PM

11. It is a good read.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Wed Sep 11, 2013, 11:28 PM

12. Thanks for a different perspective.


That's becoming more rare these days.

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Response to JohnnyLib2 (Reply #12)

Wed Sep 11, 2013, 11:29 PM

13. You welcome

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Response to JohnnyLib2 (Reply #12)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 02:41 AM

60. +1 n/t

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Wed Sep 11, 2013, 11:32 PM

15. Kind of cracked and self-serving...

...but it's great to see the U.N. being bolstered. Also, it further clarifies the damage that Bush and his Republicans did to the reputation of the United States.

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Response to gulliver (Reply #15)

Wed Sep 11, 2013, 11:33 PM

17. And here is the answer over at CNN

http://thelead.blogs.cnn.com/2013/09/11/white-house-responds-to-putins-nyt-op-ed/

It is a weird day in international relations. I know that historically this has happened before, but never at this speed.

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Response to gulliver (Reply #15)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 12:10 AM

31. The UN will only be bolstered if Russia signs on a Chapter 6 resolution.

Otherwise the UN will be basically taken out of the equation and nothing of portent happens.

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Response to gulliver (Reply #15)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 03:20 AM

73. The UN being bolstered!

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Wed Sep 11, 2013, 11:35 PM

18. Putin is no slouch

He certainly is an intelligent man and knows how to maneuver on the world stage. I think some countries like Russia need a "strongman" type like Putin to keep a firm hand on things. Look what happened in Iraq when another strongman figure, Saddam Hussein, was deposed. It quickly degenerated into chaos with suicide bombings and violence becoming the norm and a daily occurrence, and this is still going on even today. I once posted a thread recently, saying I think Iraq would have been better off if Saddam had not been thrown out by force, and I got 100% agreement in the replies. It surprised me, I thought I was being bold in my statement at the time.

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Response to quinnox (Reply #18)

Wed Sep 11, 2013, 11:45 PM

21. Please don't let us catch you complaining about authoritarianism, mmkay? Nt

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #21)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 07:11 AM

90. Wow wee wow wow! +1

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Response to quinnox (Reply #18)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 12:20 AM

37. You do realize how bigoted your comments are, right?

 

Countries like Russia and Iraq can't handle open societies and democracy. They need strongmen to keep them in line.

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Response to Pretzel_Warrior (Reply #37)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 01:27 AM

45. Have you been to Russia? Know many Russians?

Because most of Russians I know and have spoken to while spending time in Russia agree ... Russians do tend to prefer czar-like leaders.

And the Russian Orthodox Church wields great and vast influence in Russia - they're the group that is pushing the anti-gay agenda after having received much pushing, encouragement and propaganda from the US evangelical wingnuts.

Putin can't stay in power without the support of the ROC.

I love the way people here attribute all of Russia's faults to Putin. Obama hasn't abolished capital punishment, gun control here is a joke, the US hasn't signed the treaty against land mines, on and on and on. But because Obama's the president, it must ALL be his fault, right? Riiiiiight.

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Response to Flaxbee (Reply #45)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 01:39 AM

48. difference is that Obama isn't out there opposing gun control the way Putin pushes anti Gay

crap.

and Putin IS a big part of it. look at what he did to the guy who painted a picture of Putin in women's underwear.

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Response to JI7 (Reply #48)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 02:07 AM

54. Vitaly Mironov was actually the politician who ordered the raid.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/27/us-russia-putin-underwear-idUSBRE97Q0U720130827

There is no mention in the article of Putin ordering the raid. Granted, the law is on their books and Putin may have ordered the raid, but it is not factual known that he did. It's equivalent to saying that Obama ordered specific pot shops raided in California. He may have. He may not have. It's called speculation.

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Response to Flaxbee (Reply #45)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 03:21 AM

74. Not even comparable

We have free speech. Gay marriage is allowed in a lot of states and the federal government recognizes it. Sorry we are light years ahead of Russia.

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Response to Flaxbee (Reply #45)


Response to quinnox (Reply #18)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 07:53 AM

94. What vile garbage.

You should be ashamed of yourself, but we all know you aren't.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Wed Sep 11, 2013, 11:43 PM

20. Putin still making a certain crowd swoon.

His concern is solely for the functioning of the UN and good of humanity!

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #20)

Wed Sep 11, 2013, 11:47 PM

22. Don't forget equality!

Is there a VPG here at DU? How do I join?

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Response to Barack_America (Reply #22)

Wed Sep 11, 2013, 11:49 PM

25. It's called "general discussion" nt

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #20)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 07:09 AM

88. Yes and our concern is the Syrian people..

... that's why we let 100,000 die before hitting our bout of poutrage.

Putin is pursuing his economic interests to be sure, but then SO ARE WE.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)


Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 12:09 AM

29. Still no admiration for the KGB thug and his Icon worshippers.

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Response to Dawson Leery (Reply #29)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 12:12 AM

32. Here:

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Response to Dawson Leery (Reply #29)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 12:12 AM

33. Who has any form of admiration?

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #33)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 02:09 AM

55. "What a remarkable piece of writing" apparently you.

DERP

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Response to Dawson Leery (Reply #29)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 01:55 AM

52. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRGGGGHHHH!!!!!!!!!! "TRUST"! "ADMIRATION"! "WEEPY SLOBBERY LOVE"!

FUCKING BULLSHIT!

"What do I FEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEL ABOUT HIM AS A PEEEEEEEEEEEEERSON" - FUCKING NONSENSE

DOES WHAT HE SAYS MAKE ANY SENSE?

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 12:13 AM

34. And now, he's gonna 'work' for this exceptional goal of ridding his beloved a$$had of

his entire stockpile of poison gas, something he would never have thought of suggesting himself to the U.N.

That murderer and GLBT people jailer is pissed, and it shows.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 12:17 AM

36. That is indeed high praise coming from an expert writer such as yourself

 

If I were you, I'd write a letter to the NYT editor elucidating your opinion of Putin's writing.

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Response to Pretzel_Warrior (Reply #36)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 12:40 AM

38. Leaked first draft:

“I personally believe, that U.S. Americans,
are unable to do so,
because uh,
some, people out there, in our nation don’t have maps.
and uh…
I believe that our education like such as in South Africa,
and the Iraq,
everywhere like such as…
and, I believe they should uh,
our education over here,
in the U.S. should help the U.S.
or should help South Africa,
and should help the Iraq and Asian countries so we will be able to build up our future,
for us.”

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Response to Pretzel_Warrior (Reply #36)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 07:55 AM

95. She'd end up putting the entire NYT editorial staff on her Iggy List

with the speed of a flying turbine blade.

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Response to Codeine (Reply #95)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 02:53 PM

159. unless the draft got lost under 3 meters of hail so it could bever be delivered to the NYT...

gives me a sad.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 12:46 AM

40. Good piece.

- Oh, and we're ''seen as a brutish Empire'' because that's what we always were. It was a step-up given the times no doubt, but empire we still were. The freedom and liberty stuff was mostly for PR to get un-landed peasants to fight the Brits and their mercenary German thugs for the cause.....

K&R

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Response to DeSwiss (Reply #40)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 01:08 AM

42. un-WHAT-peasants?

Considering your username, may I introduce you to this http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/4631069?uid=3739744&uid=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21102630827197

Many Swiss were enticed to come to Wisconsin by Andrew Hatz who wrote back to his relatives in Switzerland in 1846 "Come to America, I have more land than the President of Switzerland!" although he probably really wrote something like this "Kommen Sie nach Amerika, ich habe mehr Land als der Präsident der Schweiz "

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Response to hfojvt (Reply #42)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 03:37 AM

79. No one knows bettter than me.

- My Swiss came via the slave quarters. Thanks for the link.

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Response to DeSwiss (Reply #40)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 01:40 AM

49. Actually, there really were a lot of freedom-fighters escaping from religious and political

persecution among the immigrants to America.

Few people have been as oppressed as the Irish were by the British. Many of them came to the US.

We are so strongly Protestant because so many of our ancestors escaped persecution, even imprisonment, in Europe simply for their Protestant beliefs.

Then there were the political refugees like the Germans who immigrated following the German revolution in 1848.

Oh, and let's don't forget all the refugees from Germany during and before WWII and then from all over Europe, especially Eastern Europe following WWII.

And then those from El Salvador, Cuba, Mexico, all parts of South America, Viet Nam, everywhere in the world. They did not come and they are not coming to grab. They are coming for freedom and justice. And we need to offer that. We should not offer instead war and further subjugation.

Our ideals are beautiful.

We need to work together to make them a reality.

When we fail to do that, we not only let ourselves down, but we let the rest of the world down -- including Russia and Putin and Assad and Syria.

No country lives up to its ideals all the time, but we are a long way from it at this time.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 01:00 AM

41. Well I would like to be able to take Putin at face value.

Too bad he is such a hypocritical thug.

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Response to WCLinolVir (Reply #41)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 08:39 AM

98. +1000

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 01:17 AM

43. I tend to very much agree with you.

I don't think you'll find much understanding amongst posters here. I've been to Russia 7 times and fully understand your comment in regards to a strong leader for Russia. Yeltsin gave away the farm, hence the reason Cheney liked him so much, and hence the reason Cheney despised Putin. In Russia they have a saying, "Eta Russia", which means, it's fucked up, but what can you one do? Nothing.

Russians know that if they had a different leader it could obviously be worse, most likely, very much worse. They also know that Russia's economy is growing. They see the new malls and new cars and they are liking new Russia. Every time I visit there are more and more new cars and amazing new restaurants and coffee shops. Granted there is still a lot that can be done to improve the country but Russia is definitely on the upswing.

Paradoxically, I see the opposite happening here. The U.S. is on the downswing. You see it everywhere. Having studied a bit on Russian employment laws (I do some translation work), one thing I notice for sure in Russia, is that the government is very pro labor/employee when it comes to workers rights versus those of the corporations. Once again a complete paradox as workers rights in the US have practically evaporated.

Russians also like the way Putin has positioned Russia on the world stage. They have national pride, as all countries tend to do, and feel that strength is important (ah, the Russian psyche) globally. They like Putin because he's a brilliant chess player in the Great Game. They understand he's ex-KGB and can't be totally trusted but that worry is diminished by his ability to get the job done (most of the time) for Russia.

Sadly, the country of Russia as a whole, is a touch homophobic. C'est la vie. Psychologically, Russia has a long way to go in many areas. Personally I would rather see Putin addressing crime and racism rather than arresting youthful happy people who want to express themselves freely or letting police close down art galleries. He isn't perfect. I know you know that. I just figured I'd point it out so you don't get disillusioned with the black or white simplistic views being expressed here on DU.

I enjoy your writing. Thanks for doing what you do. And indeed it is a very interesting moment in the history of the world when the President of Russia speaks directly to the American people. I too would like to see Obama reply.

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Response to go west young man (Reply #43)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 01:28 AM

46. Sorry after reading your post for a 2nd time...

I realized it wasn't you who wrote Russia needed a strong leader. It was Quinnox. I do believe he's right. I just wanted to correct my attributing that to you.

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Response to go west young man (Reply #46)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 01:35 AM

47. I would guess that most don't know

that things became awful after the fall of the Soviet Union. In the west, we saw things through the lens of "they get to wear blue jeans again!" But not realizing that it was one of the worst periods of the latter 20th century for the average Russian.

They only see things from their perspective. If asked for their opinions on Gorbachev and Putin, the average American would praise Gorbachev while reviling Putin, even though the Russian people would do exactly the opposite. Our society cannot free itself from Cold War thinking 20 years after it ended.

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Response to LittleBlue (Reply #47)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 01:58 AM

53. Your on the money.

It's a generalization but, the American psyche has a very short term memory (if it has one at all) ,Hence many of these simplistic comments by many of these posters I'm reading. On the other hand Russians have memories like an elephant and the suffering experience to back it up. The 90's were indeed the cruelest time in Russia since WW2.

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Response to go west young man (Reply #43)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 01:53 AM

50. Don't worry, the strong man in Russian history goes back to the tsars

they will never admit that, but Peter the Great was a thug as well. Don't get me started with Katherine.

I have studied Russian history and I get it. I just got done with an editorial for the paper.

Incidentally, they are into carrot and stick diplomacy, the Moskva went into the Med today, with her battle-group.

http://rt.com/news/russia-moskva-cruiser-mediterranean-720/

But this little let's do diplomacy by news paper, what is next? an open twitter feed?

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #50)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 02:45 AM

61. Underneath it all, I think that Putin, and Russia as a whole,

wanted to be more closely aligned with the United States. I believe that they became resentful after they were denied admittance to the WTO for so long.

Cheney and the MSM also pulled that propaganda number on Putin back around 2006 when he kissed a boy on the stomach (which is considered normal in Russia), however, the MSM really pushed that "child molester" story over here. I think Cheney was just resentful because Putin was taking control of oil and gas resources that he himself wanted his (Shell/Exxon buddies)hands on, i.e. the Sakhallin Island oil fields.

Then there was the Beslan School Massacre in 2004/US support for Chechen fighters and the way it was portrayed over here, as well as the Georgian Conflict in 2008, in which the US State Department and national media backed the guys who started the slaughter and incorrectly blamed Russia. Link to EU fact finding report here: http://www.ceiig.ch/Index.html

As a result of all these things which are, in my mind, laid at the footsteps of the usual suspects (Cheney, Rummy, Schultz, Bush...all the chicken hawk greedy NeoCons in the MIC/Gov't/Think Tanks) Russia has become resentful of us. When they quite possibly could have been much closer allies.

Considering things Russia has been relatively easy going in relations with the US. They have even facilitated the movement of most supplies into Afghanistan. I see this as another very smart chess move by Putin. It elevates Russia to a new status when it comes to world leadership. At the end of the dayl, Putin looks like the peacemaker on the world stage. Obama looks like the peacemaker at home. Americans in general don't look further than their home. And the rest of the world is aware of that.

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Response to go west young man (Reply #61)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 02:53 AM

63. I see this as part of the grand chess game

And on a darker analysis, have you noticed the number of nullification laws coming all over the place in the US? The Russians are no slouches. just like the CIA told Reagan, who did not want to hear it, that the USSR was close to collapse, I am betting Russian analysis's are seeing these cracks as a sign that the US is near collapse too. Ironically for the same reason... where all Empires go to die.

So I see them as starting to place themselves as the next leader in not so much a unipolar world, there is China, but one where the US is no longer leading. And for the moment I am assuming this continental empire survives.

Any good intel agency looks three, or four moves ahead... like the CIA did. National leaders on the other hand. not so much.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 01:18 AM

44. Hi

I think that this editorial is very interesting and it has many point that force us to re-think once again. We should not attack anyone, if something is wrong there, but we should try to help them in getting out of the mess.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 02:14 AM

56. Flirting with Godwin's Law. n/t

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Response to cprise (Reply #56)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 02:18 AM

57. I guess historical references all over that essay is flriting with it

then again, this is coming from the leader of a country that talks of that war not as a good war, but the Great Patriotic War, and a war where 20 million plus of their nationals were lost. That is a low count by the way. (And I will add the dead from the purges at both ends, which brings the count of dead in the course of a generation to a mind boggling 60-70 million)

It is also a country where people learn history. I have learned that my compatriots in the United States mostly have the memory of gnats. The first gulf war, is as distant as the cambrian period, let alone the good war, unless it is in the movies.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #57)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 02:24 AM

58. OK, but I was referring to *your* comments. n/t

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Response to cprise (Reply #58)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 02:30 AM

59. You mean the ones making the connections to what he wrote

and implied.

I will repeat this, memory of gnats.

I realize that most people should read that essay with a cliff notes to the formation of the UN, starting with the Yalta Conference, as well as another dealing with the interwar period. It is not my fault that I GOT THE BLOODY REFERENCES and what he is talking about.

My hope ( and I think I am correct given the CNN response from the WH) is that the WH got them.

What is remarkable is seeing diplomacy by news organization as well.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #59)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 02:55 AM

65. Right about the news organizations.

Interesting how the pendulum swings. We have become them. And nobody noticed. It reminds me of Terry Gilliams "Brazil". And in the meantime silly people, all over DU lately, acting in groups, post simplistic self flagellating comments while their Rome continues to burn.

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Response to go west young man (Reply #65)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 03:00 AM

67. I write both news and fiction these days

I stopped doing dystopias. It is kind of hard to do dystopias when you read the news paper. Some of it I even write it.

And it is not that people are silly, they are just very ignorant and proud of it. I meant it when I said that most need to read that essay with at least a time line of events, with relevant quotes.

My editor asked me to write an editorial with these latest developments because it is very odd. For the moment I also included the CNN bit and the Russian stick... the Moskva battle group moving into the med.

Guns of August and interlocking alliances come to mind at the moment. I am almost betting NATO is going to at least a slightly higher alert. If there is anything but a sneeze in the Eastern Med, Article Five of the NATO charter might come into play. Oh and rockets red glare loses it's cache when it is one with an explosive warhead coming in your general direction.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #67)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 03:24 AM

75. Looks like the BBC is calling it a win for Putin.

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Response to go west young man (Reply #65)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 03:07 AM

70. Well said!

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #59)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 02:59 AM

66. I agree and got it too...

I find all the hubris expressed by some is a direct result of the memory of gnats, the constant demonization of any culture that isn't US and that they (anyone who isn't fawning over our "ways") must be wrong because we don't think the US has ever done anything wrong.

All of our leaders in all countries are human, make mistakes, some are sociopaths (but some are only made to look like that in our eyes thanks to the corporate news who feeds the populace all that junk food...)

I thank you for putting together a well reasoned analysis of this LTE and sparing me from doing it (I would have had to do more homework than you seem to have needed).

Well Done!

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Response to 2naSalit (Reply #66)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 03:01 AM

68. That pesky masters in history was helpful

granted, the article for the paper actually required me to check on the pesky timeline.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #68)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 03:11 AM

71. And mine

is in polisci so I would have had to look those up too. Guess I get the policy stuff before I get other aspects of some issues. But history goes hand in hand with policy and it is my next favorite subject... but both of those come behind my passion for music and culture, my escape mechanisms.

I still am glad that you wrote about that with an open mind, much needed around here.

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Response to 2naSalit (Reply #71)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 03:14 AM

72. I got my minor in poli sci

we are just reversed I guess.

And the folks here mostly do not realize just how remarkable this is in the history of diplomacy.

IIRC there was something similar at play before WW I, with some of the royal families (who were cousins and later went to war with each other) exchanging essays for local papers, arguing their points. And yes, that went at the speed of the telegraph best case, horseback most likely.

Why they are thinking I admire Putin. Actually the guy who deserves the atta boy is the Editor of the NYT, for accepting the piece.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #72)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 03:26 AM

76. Indeed...

I guess that some just can't get past the idea that someone they've been taught to view with a jaundice eye can only see jaundice and that someone they have been taught to hate might have something of value to offer. Biting the hand that makes you an offer of peace instead of war is all they can muster, thus proving his point.

A good hard look in the cosmic mirror does wonders at times like these.

I laughed about the inverted education paths! Carry on the with work you do, I appreciate your efforts and that you share them here.

Time to go toss and turn for a few hours, I rarely sleep well.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #59)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 05:36 AM

82. This gnat says you're not paying attention.

Officials around the globe frequently make those references now, because the US is the self-declared "global policeman" with its finger stuck in every pie. There was no need to liken Putin to the Nazis, unless you can show a recent trend that the Russian government is preparing to turn genocidal and expansionist... because that's what your second paragraph ultimately implies, that the high ideals spoken to the international community are a mask for militarist insanity.

What is remarkable is seeing diplomacy by news organization as well.

I noticed some of the posturing from NYT journalists... it was very familiar pseudo-humanist war posturing. The organization had been trying to get beyond its Irag war reputation, only to find one morning that Russian diplomats had just cut off an incipient war cry in mid-utterance. That paper was on the precipice of something quite unnecessary, and realized it only at that instant, like someone who was going to an exclusive party and at the last second tipped by a sole stranger that their pants were falling down.

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Response to cprise (Reply #82)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 12:14 PM

120. Well it is time for you to go to the children's room

This is a remarkable moment in diplomacy, whether you get it or not, I don't care. I won't waste your time, or chiefly mine anymore.

Good bye

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #120)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 02:57 PM

161. .

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Response to dionysus (Reply #161)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 05:56 PM

169. She is entertaining when she does that

 

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Response to Pretzel_Warrior (Reply #169)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 07:39 PM

181. you can count on it any time someone disagrees with her

it is SOP...

but entertaining nonetheless. i think a betting pool might be in order...

sP

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Response to ProdigalJunkMail (Reply #181)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 09:21 PM

186. one can only get caught making shit up about themselves so many times before they become a complete

punch-line. the infamous "when I was a cop" statement comes to mind...

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #120)

Fri Sep 13, 2013, 11:57 AM

189. Send them to the "Children's room?" Just because they

disgree with you, and make a cogent argument in the process? It seems to me that you don't want a discussion, even though this is a discussion board.

Of course, I've been on your "iggy list for quite some time, so this is primarily for other readers to see how petulant you can be.

Your loss, not the board's.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 02:52 AM

62. Putin is laughable

What is wrong with exceptionalism? Shouldn't that be something to strive for? It certainly does not mean all Americans are exceptional, look at the tea party, if they are exceptional, it's being exceptionally nutty. While I applaud the NYTimes for giving a forum to others, Putin is so full of ish, the editorial just makes me want to refute every point he makes, just out of principle. Putin, who needs to take his shirt off, to display some symbolic virility, which actually only serves to show weakness. Please.

I also do not understand this phrase that the US is not the world's policeman. If the US is not, who is? NATO? China? With great power comes great responsibility. The US is not Cambodia. Does the world not need a nation or nations to lead when other nations cannot? Yes, this can often engender resentment and ire from others because they see this as meddling but in a situation such as what happened in the balkans, was that not the right thing to do? The UN cannot lead.

A little off topic but can someone explain this thing about Iran getting nuclear weapons. I understand we do not want nuclear proliferation, I am not for that, but if Iran got nukes, what do people think would happen? That they would nuke Israel? If they did that, Israel and the US would probably nuke Iran out of existence, I think Iran knows that. Is it that if Iran gets nukes, they will give it to Al Qaeda who could then build some limited dirty bomb? Couldn't Al Qaeda get that from other sources, like North Korea? Is it if Iran gets nukes, then Iraq will want them too and so on and so on? That I can understand, I would not want one country after another to get nukes. Israel seems the most concerned about Iran getting nukes, but again, I would think Iran would know there are only downsides to attacking Israel. I do not understand.

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Response to donna123 (Reply #62)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 02:54 AM

64. All Empires die,

and all empires think they are exceptional right until they die. You will get it.

As to Iran... re-read that section in the essay, he does have a point. In fact, it is the same point I have been making for years. We really leave those nations who have nukes alone.

And if Iran nuked Israel, trust me, Israel will launch. On the bright side Nuclear winter will take care of climate change.

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Response to donna123 (Reply #62)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 03:36 AM

78. It's all here if you want it in detail.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_program_of_Iran

Essentially, Russia is building the reactors for Iran. And has offered to take care of the spent nuclear by products. However, Western nations and especially the US and Israel constantly say a nuclear Iran is not tolerable in the Middle East. It's happening regardless. The Iranian's are not going to bomb Israel as it would be equivalent to killing themselves. In case you didn't notice US actions in the ME have far more to do with oil than anything else. Google the Azerbaijan Chamber Of Commerce. It's essentially the PNAC signatories.

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Response to donna123 (Reply #62)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 08:27 AM

96. "What is wrong with exceptionalism?"


The objection to the claim isn't that it's somehow an aspiration that should be avoided.

The objection is that it's FALSE.

It's aspiration that isn't meaningful. It can't be achieved.

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Response to donna123 (Reply #62)


Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 03:05 AM

69. K & R, bookmarked. A very important essay.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 03:28 AM

77. The UN is not worth the paper it is printed on, sadly.

Because Russia and China have vetos in the security council, the UN cannot be relied upon or trusted with authority, and it will sometimes be justifiable to take unilateral military action in defiance of it.

I don't think Syria is one of those cases - indeed I'd be hard pressed to name one in recent history, if it comes to that - but if the US (or any other nation) is to adopt a policy of obedience to any kind of international authority it needs to be NATO or a "league of Democracies" like John McCain proposed in one of the few good ideas of his presidential campaign, not the UN.

The UN has value as a talking shop, and bodies like the WHO do some good, but as an arbitrator or enforcer of law or human rights it is utterly worthless.

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Response to Donald Ian Rankin (Reply #77)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 06:26 AM

84. It still has moral force against those nations that try to circumvent it.

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Response to reformist2 (Reply #84)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 11:55 AM

115. How do you mean?

Are you saying that it's word carries some weight? If so, my answer is "yes, it does, but it probably shouldn't". Or have I misinterpreted?

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Response to Donald Ian Rankin (Reply #77)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 01:42 PM

141. With all it's defects, the veto was a product of the failure of the League of Nations.

that's not Putin talking, that is well understood history. It has prevented major conflagrations since the end of WW2. Again, that is not Putin talking, but well known diplomatic history.

What it has done though is ensure a series of brush wars, even proxy wars fought by both sides of the Cold War.

So you could argue that preventing WW 3 might make it a tad more valuable than the paper it's written on.

As to the veto power, if you are fair to it, we have also vetoed anything that does not meet our national interests. You know it does work because the five powers complain that it stops them.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #141)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 01:51 PM

142. What makes you so sure we'd have had WW3 without the UN?


I'm reminded of the old joke about the man who keeps throwing rolled-up balls of newspaper out of the window "to keep away the elephants", and when challenged replies "well, do you see any elephants in here? It must work".

That the US, UK and France have vetos as well as Russia and China is another bug, albeit a less severe one - two wrongs do not make a right. But taking those vetos away would be even worse than permitting them.

I claim that

1) The only way an international body can work as an adjudicator is if it has sufficient teeth to enforce its law evenly, even against the USA and China.
2) A body composed of all the nations of the world and functioning democratically cannot be trusted with such teeth, because too few of those nations care about human rights.
3) That leaves two other obvious options - unilateral action by nations or groups of nations - which is what we've seen - or an international but not all-national body, restricted to countries with decent human rights records, with teeth - which I don't think we're likely to see, because the USA wouldn't trust it and Europe wouldn't want to spend that much money on defence, but which might well be a good thing.

The downside, of course, would be an even more polarised world. But, hopefully, being in a "good guy club", or at least a "not terribly bad guy" club, would be attractive enough that nations would clean up their acts in order to join.

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Response to Donald Ian Rankin (Reply #142)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 01:55 PM

144. It's a few decades since WW2

And it preventing a major conflagration, that at one point would have included a nuclear exchange, is accepted by most observers.

It is not the only reason, but it is one of the reasons.

Now Americans in general hate the UN which is hilarious as hell, it was FDRs child.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 03:43 AM

80. I find it amazing how very nasty some on DU can be when one of us simply states his/her opinion

Your posting is very interesting and I am saddened that so many responses and comments failed to move the discussion forward and instead reverted to name calling and emotion.

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Response to emsimon33 (Reply #80)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 02:38 PM

152. I have most of those folks on ignore

For that precise reason.

I don't waste time with them any longer. Indeed, added a few more. If people want to act like three year olds, they have to be treated that way and confined to the children's table.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 04:29 AM

81. Get out the Polonium and let's celebrate

 

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 06:20 AM

83. Russia's use of force against Georgia 5 years ago would meet Putin's definition of an act of

aggression.

Under current international law, force is permitted only in self-defense or by the decision of the Security Council. Anything else is unacceptable under the United Nations Charter and would constitute an act of aggression.

Georgia had not attacked Russian territory nor had the Security Council authorized any action.

Millions around the world increasingly see America not as a model of democracy but as relying solely on brute force, cobbling coalitions together under the slogan “you’re either with us or against us.”

That is true. Of course, millions do not view Russia as a "model of democracy" but, to give Putin credit, he makes no pretense that it is such a model. And he is stealing the line used by Bush and Assad - "you are with us or you are with the terrorists".

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Response to pampango (Reply #83)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 07:20 AM

91. The Georgian president provoked the attacks and was a buddy of the neocons nt

 

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Response to soundsgreat (Reply #91)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 07:41 AM

93. Even so, the Russian response using force meets Putin's definition of an act of aggression.

And the "but I was provoked" excuse is one that Obama could use. It's not a excuse that excuses much.

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Response to pampango (Reply #83)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 10:45 AM

103. You may want to read the EU report on causes and conditions

of the Georgian conflict. They found that Russia did not begin the shelling. The American media portrayed it as so, but the EU Fact Finding Mission found otherwise. Here's the report. http://www.ceiig.ch

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Response to go west young man (Reply #103)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 11:00 AM

107. I understand that Russia did not start it. My point is that Russia's military response meets Putin's

definition of "an act of aggression".

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Response to go west young man (Reply #103)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 12:30 PM

134. Georgia never shelled Russia at all

All the fighting took place inside Georgia. Russia sent its army into an independent, sovereign country to intervene on behalf of some rebels. It would be the equivalent of the USA landing troops in Syria to fight Assad.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #134)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 04:43 PM

165. The EU report found that Russia was not the aggressor

and never began shelling.

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Response to go west young man (Reply #165)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 05:06 PM

166. And by that standard, the USA could send in troops to Syria and 'not be the aggressor'

and could launch cruise missiles at Damascus and 'not begin' anything. The Georgian government attacked some rebels inside Georgia; Russia attacked Georgia in response.

On the night of 7 to 8 August 2008, a sustained Georgian artillery attack struck the
town of Tskhinvali. Other movements of the Georgian armed forces targeting Tskhinvali
and the surrounding areas were under way, and soon the fighting involved Russian, South
Ossetian and Abkhaz military units and armed elements. It did not take long, however,
before the Georgian advance into South Ossetia was stopped. In a counter-movement,
Russian armed forces, covered by air strikes and by elements of its Black Sea fleet,
penetrated deep into Georgia, cutting across the country’s main east-west road, reaching
the port of Poti and stopping short of Georgia’s capital city, Tbilisi. The confrontation
developed into a combined inter-state and intra-state conflict, opposing Georgian and
Russian forces at one level of confrontation as well as South Ossetians together with
Abkhaz fighters and the Georgians at another. Such a combination of conflicts going on at
different levels is particularly prone to violations of International Humanitarian Law and
Human Rights Law. This is indeed what happened, and many of these instances were due
to the action of irregular armed groups on the South Ossetian side that would not or could
not be adequately controlled by regular Russian armed forces. Then another theatre of
hostility opened on the western flank, where Abkhaz forces supported by Russian forces
took the upper Kodori Valley, meeting with little Georgian resistance. After five days of
fighting, a ceasefire agreement was negotiated on 12 August 2008 between Russian
President Dmitry Medvedev, Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili and French President
Nicolas Sarkozy, the latter acting on behalf of the European Union. An implementation
agreement followed on 8 September 2008, again largely due to the persistent efforts of the
French President. This successful political action stood in contrast to the failure of the
international community, including the UN Security Council, to act swiftly and resolutely
enough in order to control the ever-mounting tensions prior the outbreak of armed conflict.
Since then, however, with the exception of the establishment of an EU Monitoring Mission
(EUMM) and the Geneva talks, almost no progress has been made in the difficult process
of establishing peace and stability in the region. The situation remains tense and volatile,
and there are many who fear a resumption of hostilities.
...
It is true that a number of contentious legal issues resulting from the break-up of
the Soviet Union also played their part in setting the stage for the armed conflict that was
to follow in August 2008. The issue of self-determination of South Ossetians and Abkhaz
as well as their right to unilateral secession from Georgia are two legal issues related to the
conflict. Both South Ossetians and Abkhaz consider their right to self-determination as the
legal basis for their quest for sovereignty and independence of the respective territories.
However, international law does not recognise a right to unilaterally create a new state
based on the principle of self-determination outside the colonial context and apartheid.
An
extraordinary acceptance to secede under extreme conditions such as genocide has so far
not found general acceptance. As will be shown later, in the case of the conflict in August
2008 and the ensuing recognition of South Ossetia and Abkhazia, the Mission has found
that genocide did not take place. Furthermore, much of international state practice and the
explicit views of major powers such as Russia in the Kosovo case stand against it. This
applies also to a process of dismemberment of a state, as might be discussed with regard to
Georgia after the dissolution of the Soviet Union. According to the overwhelmingly
accepted uti possidetis principle, only former constituent republics such as Georgia but not
territorial sub-units such as South Ossetia or Abkhazia are granted independence in case of
dismemberment of a larger entity such as the former Soviet Union. Hence, South Ossetia
did not have a right to secede from Georgia, and the same holds true for Abkhazia for
much of the same reasons. Recognition of breakaway entities such as Abkhazia and South
Ossetia by a third country is consequently contrary to international law in terms of an
unlawful interference in the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the affected country,
which is Georgia.
It runs against Principle I of the Helsinki Final Act which states “the
participating States will respect each other’s sovereign equality and individuality as well as
all the rights inherent in and encompassed by its sovereignty, including in particular the
right of every State to juridical equality, to territorial integrity and to freedom and political
independence.“

http://www.ceiig.ch/pdf/IIFFMCG_Volume_I.pdf


Tskhinvali is, of course, in South Ossetia in Georgia.

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Response to pampango (Reply #83)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 12:21 PM

123. Yes it would

So would the 1979 paratroop landing in Kabul. That was noted in the far fuller piece sent to the paper.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 06:50 AM

85. cobbling coalitions together under the slogan “you’re either with us or against us.”

I must have missed it when Obama said that.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 07:10 AM

89. It is a very important Op Ed

A lot of what he said is the truth

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 07:32 AM

92. Most likely his propaganda team wrote this opportunistic hypocritical bullshit..

regardless the Putin lovers swoon.

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Response to DCBob (Reply #92)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 10:13 AM

100. You called it.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/rosiegray/ketchum-placed-controversial-putin-op-ed

Does Ketchum Inc ring a bell?

From wiki

"The U.S. Department of Education has been accused of breaking Federal Law by paying commentators to publish articles and appear on talk shows promoting the agenda of the Bush Administration. The use of taxpayers money for this purpose is in violation of U.S. law and has been the subject of several Congressional investigations which reached their peak during the 2004 election battle. Some government reports have exonerated Ketchum and others strongly criticized the actions of the department and Ketchum. Further, Ketchum was strongly criticized by the public relations industry for its inept handling of this crisis."

and

"In 2004, Ketchum produced a controversial series of prepackaged news stories for HHS that featured actors posing as journalists and touted drug benefits. The ads aired on at least 40 television stations and violated a federal propaganda ban because they did not inform viewers that they came from the government, the Government Accountability Office stated."

Most hijinks at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketchum_Inc.

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Response to DCBob (Reply #92)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 10:30 AM

101. Thats EXACTLY what this is.

Putin takes a shit and some are lining up to roll in it. The admiration of this gay-hating, journalist killing, authoritarian asshole is fucking disgusting.

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Response to bunnies (Reply #101)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 10:50 AM

106. How you think you can be taken seriously with a post like that is astounding.

Lots of emotion and bellicose behavoir, but not much depth. Another simplistic comment that portrays how low DU has sunk. It feels like we're in the comments section of Raw Story or The Huffington Post. DU was once about serious debate.

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Response to go west young man (Reply #106)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 11:08 AM

108. Oh please.

As if those slathering all over Pootie-poot deserve to be taken seriously or engaged in a serious debate? That is truly laughable. The fact that such a disgusting person in being praised here portrays how low DU has sunk. Think about it.

Oh... and now I see your thoughts on the gay-hating in Russia "C'est la vie" says a lot right there.

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Response to bunnies (Reply #108)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 12:19 PM

122. Tell me, when was the last time in your life time this has occurred?

Recent history works too. None is swooning over Putin. The essay is a remarkable historical moment. I don't expect you to understand this, USA, USA, USA!!!! So it's time for you to go to the children's wing of the ignore list.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #122)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 12:26 PM

130. Oh noes!11!!!

Im crushed! The all-knowing, all-seeing Nadin is ignoring me! How DARE I not fall all over myself over an authoritarians propaganda?! You really should scroll down a bit and watch that sexy Putin video. You'll feel better. I promise.

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Response to bunnies (Reply #130)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 01:53 PM

143. See you at the Monthly Iggy Friday Potluck BBQ!

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Response to zappaman (Reply #143)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 01:56 PM

145. Sweet!

I was hoping there would be a party. I shoulda pissed her off a long time ago.

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Response to zappaman (Reply #143)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 02:21 PM

147. I need the recipe for the tomatoes

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Response to bunnies (Reply #130)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 05:16 PM

167. Welcome to the most happenin' group at DU...

the iggy parties are off the chain.



Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #167)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 05:21 PM

168. You too Sid?

This is AWESOME. All my favorite people will be there!

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Response to bunnies (Reply #168)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 05:56 PM

170. If you could do us a favor...?

Bring some TP.
We forgot to pick some up...

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Response to zappaman (Reply #170)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 05:59 PM

171. lmao!

No problem. Shall I bring some sweets too?

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Response to bunnies (Reply #171)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 06:00 PM

172. as long as you save some for the rest of us...

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Response to zappaman (Reply #172)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 06:20 PM

173. That is seriously one of the cutest things Ive ever seen.

Im not sure though, Nadin just plonked sheshe and the magistrate. Im going to need a LOT of cookies!

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Response to bunnies (Reply #173)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 06:31 PM

174. That thread is a hoot!!!!

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Response to zappaman (Reply #174)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 06:35 PM

175. Right?

Comedy gold, Nadin style.

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Response to bunnies (Reply #175)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 06:46 PM

176. Thanks...

Now, thanks to you, all of DU is being punished.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023657219

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Response to zappaman (Reply #176)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 06:58 PM

178. !

"Putin, who sadly one has to quality as not precisely a man that likes human rights and all that." Ok. Now, my face hurts.
Wait... is that a GCW op? Oh my!


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Response to bunnies (Reply #171)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 07:38 PM

180. I've got the vegetables covered~



Iggy~ poops

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #180)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 07:50 PM

184. awwwwww!

Perfect!

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #167)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 06:54 PM

177. It's certainly the fucking largest group. nt

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #122)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 12:27 PM

132. Oh noes!

The iggy list!

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Response to bunnies (Reply #108)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 12:21 PM

125. Evolve.

You can search through many of my other posts and see I am very pro equal rights for all people. I'm European and we've had equal partnership civil union rights for the last 20 years. I think I am finished communicating with you as your emotions seem to run in front of your intellect.

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Response to go west young man (Reply #125)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 12:28 PM

133. Ah yes, you know me so well.

Good day, sir.

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Response to DCBob (Reply #92)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 10:48 AM

105. You are correct....Ketchum placed the article and gets well paid

To do it. But it won't stop all the praise going towards Putin by some.

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Response to DCBob (Reply #92)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 12:41 PM

137. Well the children are out in force today

1.- This is the first time in diplomatic history something like this happens, at least in recent memory. I seem to remember something similar at the speed of the telegraph before WW1, and it was an obscure thing.

2.- Yes, this is remarkable for what it is regardless of what the children, unable to see history in the making, because of their own personal cult of personality, which is blinding.

3.- Go on and play with the rest of the three year olds who cannot handle the real complex world at the children's wing of the ignore list. Just be careful with the swing set, was just installed. The rest of the amenities are on order. I am sure you will take the cream filled pies and continue to throw them, but that can't be helped.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #137)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 07:03 PM

179. Bwaaaaaah! Nadin has finally lost it!

Hope she enjoys her echo chamber of Putin lovers. Seriously this is really pathetic. Amazing that someone who appears to be knowledgeable and intelligent can fall for that garbage Putin (or rather his PR firm) wrote.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #137)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 07:43 PM

182. well, you used to just say people were incapable of comprehending your brilliance

now, not only do they not 'get it' they are children. your debating tactics would be despicable if they weren't non-existent. a real shame that someone who claims your credentials is so inept at defending your many theses.

sP

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 08:36 AM

97. The Putin once subdued a Grizzly with his bare hands n/t

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 10:10 AM

99. It is really sad when our "trusted media" can't see PR schlock when it appears.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 10:37 AM

102. He is JUST SO DREAMY!

I love me some Putey Pute!

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Response to snooper2 (Reply #102)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 11:15 AM

110. Allow me to make your day.


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Response to bunnies (Reply #110)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 12:06 PM

118. this was good

thanks

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 11:10 AM

109. Meh.

Placed there by the Ketchum ad agency/PR people, who probably wrote it also.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 11:20 AM

111. I have lived in four countries and spent copious amounts of time in a half dozen more

And your "full confidence assertion" that everyone abroad sees the US as a brutish empire is not based on anything more than your fevered wishes.

Every measure that counts says that the US is still admired and respected in large parts of the world, particularly since Obama's election in 2008. I also have a large group of expat/frequent traveler friends and none of us have come across this sentiment that you appear to believe is so rampant. But then, we don't wallow in it ourselves so that may explain why we don't come across it often.

As for this piece of writing, how anyone even moderately intelligent can confuse this with anything other than a blatant piece of self-serving propaganda is beyond me. Putin is a master all right, of getting simpletons to become even simpler.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #111)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 11:21 AM

112. +1 n/t

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Response to Number23 (Reply #111)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 12:22 PM

126. +++



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Response to Number23 (Reply #111)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 12:23 PM

127. So the Yankee go home

And demonstrations closing major avenues are just figments of our collective imagination. The us as an ideal is still respected, the empire, not so much. Americans themselves are separate from the country for most folks I meet abroad, but there is usually a tad more sophistication in that resect.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 11:23 AM

113. Yes commrad, a well written editorial

But you must remember the thing that makes propaganda so potent is that it is one part truth and two parts lie.

And while Putin seems to be saine here, he is the same guy who will protect his buddy Assad by spreading false information about Assad forces using chemical weapons.

Believe me when I tell you that Putin most assuredly has his own skelotons in his closet.

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Response to IsItJustMe (Reply #113)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 12:25 PM

129. That comrade comment sends you straight

To the children's wing comment of the ignore list. It's obvious you are not here for discussion, but to berate and to bully. These days I don't have patience for that. Good bye

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #129)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 07:45 PM

183. funny how people who constantly belittle others

have such thin skins...

sP

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 12:01 PM

117. BWAAAAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHA

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 12:08 PM

119. There are a bazillion messages in here

 

And you seemed to have decoded it well

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 12:18 PM

121. Putin: A Gentleman, A Scholar, A Peaceful Man, Who Only Wants Wants What's Best for Everybody!

A gentle, wise soul who's motives, intent and character are beyond repute!

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Response to Skraxx (Reply #121)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 12:21 PM

124. LOL

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 12:27 PM

131. Useful idiot, indeed.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 12:31 PM

135. Oh, yes. I literally swooned when I read it.

I was disappointed, however, that he did not state his support of LGBT people living in Russia. I guess he's still not there, yet, eh?

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 12:39 PM

136. I just wish I could believe it

It's well written, and I'm dubious he wrote it, but that isn't a big deal because alot of people in his position have writers especially for foreign languages.

I'm also dubious he means a word of it. He talks a good game about the UN, but I'm dubious he has any real loyalty or affection for it.

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Response to zipplewrath (Reply #136)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 12:44 PM

138. It is a remarkable piece for where it ran

It's the carrot. The stick entered the med the same morning of the 11th. The Moskva battle group might be taking personnel to protect blue helmets, Almay made the comment on NPR they were willing to do that. But a carrier killer is there as a signal t the Sixth fleet too

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 02:35 PM

149. He makes some good points, but the "false flag" accusation ruins the entire article IMO.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #149)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 02:36 PM

150. That was pushing national agendas purely

And his is well known.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #150)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 02:39 PM

153. I understand pushing national agendas, but that can be done without lying about something

as important as this. I could forgive lies along the lines of "Russia is a peace seeking nation devoted to democracy", but this is more serious. I do agree with the points you highlight in the OP, and when I read the article, I initially had a favorable reaction, since he does make many important observations that we don't hear much from our own leaders or press.

But the false flag thing, for me, is like finding a hair in the soup. Hard to ignore.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #153)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 02:42 PM

154. The problem is that the attack happened

But we have first hand information from field reporters, mostly ignored in the US, that it was the rebels. The UN report is not conclusive either. So the Russians hung their hat on that peg.

It's one of those that comes from where it comes.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #154)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 02:44 PM

155. What about the HRW report? Do you think that is credible/conclusive?

It wouldn't surprise me if information from field reporters would be mostly ignored by the US.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #155)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 02:52 PM

158. Here is the problem

The US is relying on the launchers and mostly signals intel.

The Russians are also relying on field reports like sarin with some vital pieces for chem munitions missing like stabilizers. This supports a less sophisticated chem munitions handling.

Let's give both sides credit and both could partially be right. The US did see the Syrians bombing the living daylights out of the neighborhoods, matching satellite and signals intelligence. The Russians are hanging their hat on the rebels mishandled chemicals leading to the release.

What if the artillery barrage led to the accidental release? It's not like either side have actual people on the ground.

Then there is a truly horrific possibility, and who do you punish? Both are right, the Regime did indeed launch those munitions, but the rebels had some too, and due to the fireworks accidental releases happened, or on purpose thinking making it horrific will get the Americans to attack.

The old truism applies here, the first casualty of war is the truth.

The short, this is a very confusing incident, and it is the tenth incident. So why now?

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #158)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 02:57 PM

162. Interesting. I guess it's less cut and dry than I thought.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #162)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 02:59 PM

163. It is all but cut and dry

And I am sure Tel Aviv took the threat of an attack seriously enough to rise alert levels and cancel Yom Kippur leaves.

Some of the groups are indeed Al Qaida tied. They would get a twofer, attack the Zionist pig, and the Zionist pig would strike....hard.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #154)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 02:45 PM

156. What about all the field reporters that say it was Assad?

Seems like you are discounting those.

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Response to maddezmom (Reply #156)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 02:54 PM

160. They don't count.

Only the ones that make America look bad matter.
Cuz we are living in a dictablanda and if you understood arcs and trends, you would know America is an dying empire.
Suffice it to say, I'm not surprised you don't know this.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #149)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 02:36 PM

151. Not for some apparently.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Thu Sep 12, 2013, 08:09 PM

185. Dayum! I never thought I'd say this, but Putin hit the nail on the head.

A remarkable piece. Thanks for posting!

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