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Tue Sep 3, 2013, 12:46 PM

Alan Grayson: Munich Metaphor ‘STUPID’





Rep. Alan Grayson said Tuesday he is “sick and tired” of the comparison to the situation in Syria to Adolf Hitler and Munich in 1938 made by Secretary of State John Kerry, dismissing it as irrelevant. “I’m sick and tired of stupid historical metaphors that have nothing to do with this. I don’t think that there’s many people alive who remember Munich right now and properly so, that has nothing to do with this,” Grayson (D-Fla.) told MSNBC on Tuesday.The outspoken Florida Democrat said the situation in Syria is a civil war that was nothing to do with the U.S. or any of its allies.


“Not a single American has been attacked. Not anyone of our allies has been attacked,” Grayson said. “If you’re looking for historical analogies, let’s talk about Iraq and Afghanistan. Those seem like historical analogies that might actually be more relevant than Munich.”



Even if you follow the analogy, Grayson said the “expensive” and “dangerous” plan being contemplated won’t accomplish anything to help the situation, anyway.


“The attack that’s being contemplated won’t do any good. We’re not going to get rid of Assad through this attack, we’re not going to disarm him through this attack, we’re not going to do anything significant to prevent him from doing exactly what he may have done before,” Grayson said.



Grayson said the money that would be spent on an attack would be better put to humanitarian uses or domestic issues.



http://www.politico.com/story/2013/09/alan-grayson-munich-metaphor-stupid-96203.html?hp=l7

39 replies, 3705 views

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Arrow 39 replies Author Time Post
Reply Alan Grayson: Munich Metaphor ‘STUPID’ (Original post)
Segami Sep 2013 OP
polichick Sep 2013 #1
Segami Sep 2013 #2
Enthusiast Sep 2013 #8
Segami Sep 2013 #14
Jack Rabbit Sep 2013 #24
Enthusiast Sep 2013 #29
MisterP Sep 2013 #10
polichick Sep 2013 #15
Enthusiast Sep 2013 #30
eridani Sep 2013 #16
ProSense Sep 2013 #3
truebrit71 Sep 2013 #6
ProSense Sep 2013 #11
MynameisBlarney Sep 2013 #12
Enthusiast Sep 2013 #31
Bandit Sep 2013 #32
rug Sep 2013 #35
hedgehog Sep 2013 #4
Capt. Obvious Sep 2013 #5
LuvNewcastle Sep 2013 #7
blm Sep 2013 #9
ProSense Sep 2013 #13
Bandit Sep 2013 #33
blm Sep 2013 #34
DeSwiss Sep 2013 #17
snagglepuss Sep 2013 #18
nikto Sep 2013 #19
beerandjesus Sep 2013 #25
nikto Sep 2013 #37
Ocelot Sep 2013 #20
mimi85 Sep 2013 #21
Scuba Sep 2013 #27
mimi85 Sep 2013 #28
nikto Sep 2013 #38
swilton Sep 2013 #22
beerandjesus Sep 2013 #23
Scuba Sep 2013 #26
malthaussen Sep 2013 #36
beerandjesus Sep 2013 #39

Response to Segami (Original post)

Tue Sep 3, 2013, 12:55 PM

1. Maybe Alan Grayson could start a People's Party - Lord knows, we need...

a party that doesn't represent the mic.

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Response to polichick (Reply #1)

Tue Sep 3, 2013, 01:09 PM

2. Shhh,...

referring to the 'mic' might invite an unwarranted smiley from the thread roaming pack.

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Response to polichick (Reply #1)

Tue Sep 3, 2013, 02:05 PM

8. And a party that doesn't represent the banks too.

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Response to Enthusiast (Reply #8)

Tue Sep 3, 2013, 02:12 PM

14. Not the Banks?...Ok now, thats it!

Now you've gone WAY OVERBOARD for even suggesting such nonsense!




I didn't feel the need to attach the 'sarcasm' smiley,
but I did anyway.

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Response to Enthusiast (Reply #8)

Tue Sep 3, 2013, 03:38 PM

24. Or the fossil fuel industry or private health insurance companies or private prisons

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Response to Jack Rabbit (Reply #24)

Tue Sep 3, 2013, 04:15 PM

29. Yup. Indefensible. nt

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Response to polichick (Reply #1)

Tue Sep 3, 2013, 02:09 PM

10. and the political spectrum needs to have the other 70-90% of us represented

SOMEONE has to be to the left of Francisco Franco

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Response to MisterP (Reply #10)

Tue Sep 3, 2013, 02:20 PM

15. Agreed, and someone will start a true people's party eventually...

if we're ever to be a functioning democracy.

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Response to MisterP (Reply #10)

Tue Sep 3, 2013, 04:16 PM

30. It would be a nice change....nt

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Response to polichick (Reply #1)

Tue Sep 3, 2013, 03:06 PM

16. Or maybe more people like him could take over the Democrats

Way too many on the left totally blow off electoral politics. I've never seen a third party as serious about elections as they are about ideas.

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Response to Segami (Original post)

Tue Sep 3, 2013, 01:10 PM

3. Was Grayson in the room when Kerry allegedly made the comment?

I mean, the only report I see is in Politico, and it lacks context.

“I’m sick and tired of stupid historical metaphors that have nothing to do with this. I don’t think that there’s many people alive who remember Munich right now and properly so, that has nothing to do with this,” Grayson (D-Fla.) told MSNBC on Tuesday.

A lot of people weren't alive during Vietnam. Is Grayson suggesting that people can't understand historical references? Or that WWI or WWII shouldn't be mentioned in historical context?

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Response to ProSense (Reply #3)

Tue Sep 3, 2013, 01:52 PM

6. So the new standard is you have to have been in the room when a statement was made?

Good to know.

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Response to truebrit71 (Reply #6)

Tue Sep 3, 2013, 02:10 PM

11. No, it's about claiming people are too young or stupid to understand historical references n/t

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Response to ProSense (Reply #3)

Tue Sep 3, 2013, 02:11 PM

12. I have no idea what you mean

because I'm not in the same room with you.

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Response to ProSense (Reply #3)

Tue Sep 3, 2013, 04:18 PM

31. Historical references should have some basis in fact.

Not just some made up bullshit that has no bearing on the discussion about a strike on Syria. See post #4.

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Response to ProSense (Reply #3)

Tue Sep 3, 2013, 06:01 PM

32. So you believe calling him Hitler is accurate in any way what-so-ever?

Even Obama has said he doesn't believe he actually knew anything about such an attack and if it did originate from the Administration it was a rogue unit that was not a part of the inner circle....To equate the two is stretching things IMO

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Response to ProSense (Reply #3)

Tue Sep 3, 2013, 06:41 PM

35. He said it in a conference call to House Democrats.

Secretary of State John Kerry told House Democrats during a Monday conference call that they face a "Munich moment" as they weigh whether to approve striking Syria to punish Syrian President Bashar Assad for using chemical weapons, two sources with knowledge of the call told NBC News.


Would you like a link?

http://firstread.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/09/02/20295307-kerry-congress-faces-munich-moment?lite

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Response to Segami (Original post)

Tue Sep 3, 2013, 01:17 PM

4. With Hitler's plans to invade Eastern Europe and kill the inhabitants to ensure

Lebensraum, war was coming, sooner or later. There was no negotiating with him. Assad has no apparent plans to invade other countries, only to hold what he has.

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Response to Segami (Original post)

Tue Sep 3, 2013, 01:19 PM

5. So that's the reference to Munich!

I've been seeing "Munich" mentioned a bunch and I've just been assuming it was Israel's response to the murder of its wrestling team.

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Response to Segami (Original post)

Tue Sep 3, 2013, 02:04 PM

7. Sic 'em Grayson!

Looks like he's going to raise hell about all this bullshit, and well he should.

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Response to Segami (Original post)

Tue Sep 3, 2013, 02:08 PM

9. By that standard, US can't interfere in ANY country where chemical weapons

are currently being turned against innocent people, where hundred thousands more are killed, and millions are forced out as refugees.

Grayson chooses to not use historic context, at all. Especially the fact that Kerry has actively pursued diplomatic solutions with Assad for Syria for 8 years. Did Bush pursue diplomacy in Iraq for 8 days, let alone 8 years?

Grayson isn't sick and tired of the bogus attack on Obama and Kerry that they are manufacturing intel to have war in Syria just like Bush did to go to war in Iraq? That's a historic reference he can admire?

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Response to blm (Reply #9)

Tue Sep 3, 2013, 02:12 PM

13. Exactly, which is why

I asked:

Why is it the U.S. responsibility to prevent Iran pursuing its nuclear program?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023587381

The House passed a resolution tightening sanctions and declaring the IRG a terrorist organization. What happens if Iran continues to pursue its nuclear program?



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Response to blm (Reply #9)

Tue Sep 3, 2013, 06:05 PM

33. If there was evidence that Russia or China used chemical weapons would you still be

chomping at the bit to go to war with them? the ONLY reason we are even suggesting such a thing is because we believe the Syrian Administration is weak and would be easy to topple. It really has nothing at all to do with Chemical weapons at all. Just a convenient excuse. Same exactly as was done with Iraq.

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Response to Bandit (Reply #33)

Tue Sep 3, 2013, 06:33 PM

34. That's inaccurate. There is CURRENTLY tons of evidence reSyria and 2million refugees.

Bush didn't even use 8 days to pursue diplomatic solutions in Iraq, while Kerry has actively pursued diplomatic solutions for 8 YEARS with Assad in Syria since 2005 in contrast with the many hawks and neocons who wanted to invade Syria back then.

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Response to Segami (Original post)

Tue Sep 3, 2013, 03:16 PM

17. Go get them warmongers Alan!!!

- K&R



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Response to Segami (Original post)

Tue Sep 3, 2013, 03:17 PM

18. Grayson is bang on. The money should be used to aid the massive surge in refugees.

I despise Assad and my heart goes out to the Syrians but this is pointless waste that will do nothing to rid the world of this scum.

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Response to Segami (Original post)

Tue Sep 3, 2013, 03:29 PM

19. THE POWER OF SIMILE: I had a horrible hamburger the other day---It was just like Hitler!

That TV commercial is disgusting---It's worse than Hitler!

Miley Cyrus's new dance moves---As bad as Hitler!

The new Megadeath CD is so bad, it's worse than Hitler!

I hate beef liver & onions---Just like Hitler!

You just can't beat The Power Of Simile.

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Response to nikto (Reply #19)

Tue Sep 3, 2013, 03:41 PM

25. Hahaha!

Traffic on the way to the office today was worse than Hitler!

And then when I finally got in, the coffee was worse than Hitler!

And then my machine was slow and I had to reboot--that thing is worse than Hitler!

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Response to beerandjesus (Reply #25)

Thu Sep 5, 2013, 05:48 AM

37. I think...

A new slang phrase has just been invented.

Now let's all get out there and USE IT.


This hot, humid weather---It's worse than Hitler!

Syria's Assad---Worse than Hitler. We gotta' start bombing.

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Response to Segami (Original post)

Tue Sep 3, 2013, 03:32 PM

20. K&R

 

Thanks for speaking the truth, Congressman Grayson. It's nice to have at least one Democratic leader who's not a smug, condescending empty suit.

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Response to Segami (Original post)

Tue Sep 3, 2013, 03:36 PM

21. Was Grayson ever in the military? nt

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Response to mimi85 (Reply #21)

Tue Sep 3, 2013, 03:44 PM

27. No, but I was. What's your question?

Or was that just a pathetic attempt to smear Grayson?

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Response to Scuba (Reply #27)

Tue Sep 3, 2013, 03:46 PM

28. Neither

I was just curious. I found my answer on Wiki.

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Response to mimi85 (Reply #21)

Thu Sep 5, 2013, 05:49 AM

38. I don't know but...

He sure slaughters Conservatives and warmongers.
Sorry for the redundancy.

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Response to Segami (Original post)

Tue Sep 3, 2013, 03:36 PM

22. Thank you Congressman Grayson

for trying to elevate the US public's education and not patronize us with inane sound-bites. The task is daunting given the MSM and mass culture's attempts to keep us stupid.

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Response to Segami (Original post)

Tue Sep 3, 2013, 03:38 PM

23. Amen! It IS stupid, and doubly infuritating...

...because Kerry is NOT stupid.

When stupid people stay stupid things, you can at least understand, and cut them a bit of slack. After all, they're just stupid.

When smart people say stupid things, it's either manipulative (as it is here), pandering (as it also is here), or just plain condescending (as, hey, it also is here).

My God.

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Response to Segami (Original post)

Tue Sep 3, 2013, 03:42 PM

26. Where's the rest of our Party "leaders"? Are they all corrupt?

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Response to Segami (Original post)

Wed Sep 4, 2013, 12:48 PM

36. Actually, the "Munich Metaphor" is not stupid...

... but you have to look at it from the proper perspective.

What I get from Kerry's quote is what has been mouthed by a lot of pundits recently, that this is a "manhood check" incident. The comparison is not to any threat Mr Assad and his regime may pose to the rest of the world, but rather to the cowardice displayed by Mr Chamberlain and the Western powers in the face of German aggression. Having "drawn a line" and "double-dared" the other guy to cross it, we now have to respond or look like wusses.

Mr Grayson is right, the events are not comparable. But it is quite obvious that this is about macho-male competitive bullshit and penis size (as Jon Stewart brilliantly pointed out in his show last night) and nothing at all about foreign policy or even politics. Mr Assad has been massacring his people for quite some time now. Clearly, it hasn't moved us to take any action. Ergo one must assume that any movement to action now is about something other than dead civilians.

-- Mal

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Response to malthaussen (Reply #36)

Thu Sep 5, 2013, 09:33 AM

39. I see your point...

...but the problem with invoking Hitler is that you immediately make a powerful emotional argument by doing that. The emotional impact of saying "Hitler" overpowers anything else you're saying.

Kerry knows this--and hence has no excuse. There are plenty of other ways he could have made the same point--Menendez did that when he talked about told that probably-apocryphal story of the bully in his schoolyard. But Kerry chose the metaphor that would maximize the emotional wallop; and given that the substance of the argument, while coherent, is not very strong or compelling, it's hard to imagine that he chose the "Hitler" argument for any other reason than to draw in the less critically-minded.

Therefore, I think the "proper perspective" with which to evaluate the statement is the gut-level response he was going for. I suppose the Munich metaphor wasn't stupid per se, but it was definitely manipulative, and deliberately so.

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