A question for those pushing for war on Syria...Have you lost anyone you know in war?

[Octafish]

A brother of a friend of mine from high school was murdered by a fellow soldier at a "stress clinic" near Baghadad.



Army Maj. Matthew P. Houseal was a good doctor, too.

While I didn't know him personally, I was friends in high school with one of his siblings. Why I write this:

Maj. Houseal would be alive today, most likely, were it not for Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and all their enablers lying America into an illegal, immoral, unnecessary and disastrous war on Iraq.

Now, in Syria, we're told it's the opposite of Iraq, where all we had were Bush and Cheney lies piled high on top of 9-11.

War on Syria seems so "right." There are many sound, humanitarian reasons for military intervention: to stop aggression, prevent war crimes and poison gas, help a people downtrodden for generations by a multi-generational family of dictators.

OK. I got it. Even if you've never lost someone you know to war, shouldn't peace be worth trying first? War should be the last resort.

[HardTimes99]

1. Syria 2013 reminds me of Serbia, ca. 1913-4. And it's August to boot. Scary

shit. Things have a way of escalating past a point of no return and then an entire generation of young people (men in the case of World War I) are destroyed.

[Octafish]

13. The Butterfly Effect made large.

The generals today are better trained, but the type of thinking that might makes right still rings alien to too many in leadership positions.

Until we can bring back a life that's gone, war should be a theoretical construct only.

[BOG PERSON]

35. agree

the US isnt the only party that's drawn a red line here

[Marrah_G]

2. +1

[Octafish]

14. My ex-wife's first cousin was killed in Vietnam.

One of my best friends from childhood's brother was killed in Vietnam.

Another of my current best friend's brother was killed in Vietnam.

They share one thing in common: EACH of their families was never the same.

[Autumn]

3. A Brother in Vietnam. My Nephew came home after two tours

in Iraq and his last tour in Afghanistan and put a gun to his head and pulled the trigger. War should always be the last resort.

[Octafish]

17. I am so sorry, Autumn.

My step-mother's son-in-law-to-be returned from Iraq and did the same about 9 months ago. Something happened at work -- he was a civilian contractor working on helos in Texas. He left behind his fiancee and a baby. Everyone on my step-mom's side is hurting -- my dad's side didn't know the fellow. My dad did, though, and he's a very different person today.

[Autumn]

18. I think he was gone after his first tour. It just took him a while to die.

[Motown_Johnny]

4. Haven't we been trying peace?

The war in Syria has been going on for years now without our using any military force.

The argument now is whether it is worse to allow chemical attacks on a civilian population or to "punish" the government who used chemical weapons on their own civilians through military strikes.


I honestly don't know which is right but it would seem that trying to deter future attacks would be a good thing. Military force may not be the right way to do it but maybe all that is understood by some people is force.


This is a lesser of two evils situation. Neither choice is a good one.

[avaistheone1]

30. Why limit the solution to a choice between the lesser of two evils?

Instead why aren't negotiations and political solutions being discussed? Ultimately even war itself can only be resolved with negotiations and political solutions.

[Motown_Johnny]

31. Who are you going to negotiate with?

The guy who is gassing his own people or the Al-Qaeda associated rebel groups?


It takes two to tango, also to end a war.

[avaistheone1]

32. Better that they sort this out and do their own killing, rather than we do their killing for them.

The negotiators will emerge in either your scenario or in mine, so I see no reason for the U.S. to get blood on its hands.

[Motown_Johnny]

33. So allowing chemical attacks on civilians is your first choice?

What if the attacks continue to escalate? This is at least the second, and possibly the third time chemical weapons have been used in this war.

Won't there still be blood on our hands if we allow these attacks to continue when we might be able to deter this type of attack?

[avaistheone1]

34. Before you get on your high horse.

The U.S. gassed families in Fallujah, and we helped Saddam gas Iranians.

Where is the U.S.'s moral purity?

This is not something new.

How about we face our own moral failings?

Each and every year 40,000 people die here in the U.S. because of lack of access to medical care. That number is supposed to be halved by Obama care. Should Obamacare prove successful there will still be 20,000 people who will die for lack of medical care. Are the Syrian children more important than are own children and people?

And are we resigned and comfortable with the hunger that pervades our country and its families in the U.S?

If someone can solve the problem in Syria it certainly isn't the U.S., we have no moral standing, nor are we in a financial position to do so.

[treestar]

5. Yes. So are we the only people who get to decide?

BTW, no one is "pushing" any war.

[progressoid]

10. No one is pushing any war?

[Segami]

12. +1

Nah, we don't want war.....so they keep reminding us.

[treestar]

28. Not here on DU

That is merely the conclusion of those using black and white thinking. You can't even question their conclusions without being accused of a hyperbolic position anti.

[pinboy3niner]

29. You may have missed some recent threads in GD, treestar...

Fuck Assad, take him and his generals out.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023544819

How about a drone strike on Assad's relatives?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023541901

[HardTimes99]

25. Bwa-ha-ha. You must have missed the open letter in the Weekly Standard signed by

all the usual NeoCon suspects, war criminals and sociopaths.

There are quite a few armchair warriors right here on DU with a pronounced case of bloodlust, come to think of it.

[NuclearDem]

6. Two security forces MPs I went through basic with.

And a fellow 1A8 who hung himself after coming back from deployment.

[Octafish]

19. A friend of mine from high school wanted to be an MP...

...and then a police officer after he got out.

The guy was the straightest arrow in St. Joseph Senior High School in St. Joseph, Michigan. Apart from enjoying science fiction, there was nothing unusual about him except he didn't swear, drink, smoke, party, talk back to teachers or make sexist comments. He really was a wonderful human being.

Something snapped after basic training and he went AWOL. He came home, took his dad's hunting rifle out of the close and shot himself in the heart. This was about 1976 or so.

People thought he must've panicked when he realized he'd never be an MP or a police officer. My heart sinks like a stone when I think of him and the pain his family and friends still go through.

Please know I am truly sorry upon learning of your losses, NuclearDem. Life is too short to be spent taking it from others or one's self.

[TM99]

7. I have lost too many relatives

and dear friends & brothers to war.

I have seen the violence. I have felt the fear. I do not want others to do so ever again.

Is that unrealistic? Hell, yes. Humans are angry monkeys most of the time and love to fling their poo. But I still wish and hope. I spoke out 10 years ago. I spoke out against Libya. I will continue to speak out against Syria.

Watching this run up is shocking to me. It is not what it is being said, because really it isn't any different than the war propaganda from 10 years ago. What is shocking is the number of Democrats who support this bullshit. As a Republican fleeing my fucked up part a decade ago, I lurked at DU. It was a spot of sanity for me even though I never joined in to the discussion.

My how things have changed. Humans are humans, period. It doesn't matter what party you affiliate with, it ultimately comes down to principles. I am saddened by those whose principles change because a man with D after his name is now the President.

[Octafish]

36. Thank you for sharing your experiences, TM99.

I know they're just words, but please know I am truly sorry at your infinite loss. The loss of any human being is terrible and forever changes the world.

The combat veterans I have known -- men and women -- have each related their desire for anything but war. They each said it was a waste of human life. "Things" could have been settled differently.

Thanks also for the heads-up on the sea change in the Democratic Party. Somewhere the idea that people are more important than things got replaced by the "Money trumps peace" thinking of Wall Street, War Inc and George W Bush and his ilk.

[TM99]

37. Thank you Octafish for this thread.

I appreciate your kind words.

I still work with a lot of veterans in my psychology practice. I rarely meet one who is pushing to go back to war if they have really & truly experienced its horrors.

Ten years ago, I suppose I could still say I was naive enough to believe that perhaps party did make a difference. It really doesn't. In the end, we are still just human beings, and sadly most of us are really screwed up human beings.

So many hawks; never enough doves.

[Ernesto]

8. My dad died in WW2

I never got to meet him............

[Octafish]

38. I am so sorry, Ernesto.

Your words hit me like a hammer blow. It is something almost beyond comprehension, the idea of never knowing a parent -- one of the people responsible for one being in the world.

He must have been a remarkable person. His family and your mom's family raised a great kid.

[Tikki]

9. My husband lost an uncle in Korea...

We recently had a family reunion and we talked about how this one looked like that one and so on...
An aunt brought a picture of the lost Uncle and we showed it around...and even though he was killed before
he had children...his face showed up in the nieces and nephews and their children.

Seeing that photo was very sad and happy at the same time.


Tikki

[Octafish]

39. The Future

Thank you for sharing your experience, Tikki.

The idea that someone will be remembered in the hearts and minds is important -- it's probably the most "human" thing of all, love.

Seeing the person reflected in the faces of the family, as you wrote, must be very sad and happy at the same time.

My uncle was a Marine wounded in Korea. He came home and recovered. One of the biggest guys of my childhood memory -- strong, smart and brave. He and my aunt tried, but never could have biological kids. They adopted a son, however.

My uncle passed away in 1972. He suffered from a type of bone cancer -- very painful last months. I miss him every day.

[wild bird]

11. My uncle in Korea.

[Octafish]

40. I am so sorry, wild bird.

People who have not lost someone in war can only imagine the pain and suffering. The loss is beyond words to convey, an infinity of what might have been.

[wild bird]

46. Thank you.

He was at the Chosin Reservoir when the Chinese attacked.

It's sad that those pushing the hardest for military action are those that have either never experienced combat or lost a relative/friend to combat.

Sadly, I experienced both and am dead set against any US military action against Syria.

[warrant46]

15. 12 members of my unit in Viet-Nam

[Octafish]

41. I am so sorry, warrant46.

Each of those 12 service men is an infinite loss -- to their families, their friends, their nation.

My good friend lost his brother in Vietnam, November 1968. His family was never the same. His dad's health failed. He died young. His mom shortly thereafter.

One thing I remember most: They were good people -- the BEST.

[warrant46]

49. They were good and they were very very young

And they are about to be joined by another generation


“They wrote in the old days that it is sweet and fitting to die for one's country. But in modern war, there is nothing sweet nor fitting in your dying. You will die like a dog for no good reason.”

― Ernest Hemingway

[KittyWampus]

16. I am not pushing for war. However, I know people who escaped slaughter in Yugoslavia & Serbia.

[brooklynite]

20. "Try Peace" is a lovely phrase on a protest sign...what exactly does it mean?

The Government began attacking peaceful protesters in Syria two years ago. How should your "try peace" approach have addressed that situation, and how long should it have been allowed to continue?

Personally, I don't think we're rushing in at this point.

[AsahinaKimi]

21. I have never met my Grandfather...

He was killed in WWII. The family does not talk about it, but my Father has mentioned the word Kamikaze in whispers with my Mother, when talking about the family history. I asked about it once..and was given a blank stare. I assumed it was a taboo subject. That was when I was younger, and I have never asked again.

[Octafish]

42. I am so sorry, AsahinaKimi.

Your grandfather must have been incredibly brave.

My mom's dad died when she was a young girl, so I never got to know him. His absence has left a large void in my life and heart.

While our nations were at war then -- a much more complicated time than merely "Us vs. Them" usually conveyed in popular media and through academic histories -- our people are at peace today.

My job gave me the opportunity to know many people from Japan visiting Detroit over the past 25 years. All of them -- each man, woman and child -- treated me with the utmost kindness and respect. I would be proud to call them brother and sister, son and daughter.

It is my great honor to know you through DU.

[pinboy3niner]

22. More than 60

In the VN War alone. Two roommates and many other friends, as well as other men I trained with and served with.

But I'm not pushing for war.

[HardTimes99]

26. On this day in late August, one harkens back 99 years to another August and

another young man who briefly fell sway to the siren call to combat:

Anthem for Doomed Youth

What passing-bells for these who die as cattle?
Only the monstrous anger of the guns.
Only the stuttering rifles' rapid rattle
Can patter out their hasty orisons.
No mockeries for them; no prayers nor bells,
Nor any voice of mourning save the choirs, —
The shrill, demented choirs of wailing shells;
And bugles calling for them from sad shires.
What candles may be held to speed them all?
Not in the hands of boys, but in their eyes
Shall shine the holy glimmers of goodbyes.
The pallor of girls' brows shall be their pall;
Their flowers the tenderness of patient minds,
And each slow dusk a drawing-down of blinds.

Wilfred Owen

[Octafish]

45. I am so sorry, pinboy3niner.

There is nothing one can say because each of your comrades in arms was a world of infinite possibilities for the world we all share. This world would be a completely different place were just one still with us -- Better still, were all able to live life to their natural span.

My good friend's big brother died in Vietnam, less than a week after arriving. He was shot in some kind of "Friendly Fire" homicide.

L....... J.... P...

LCPL - E3 - Marine Corps - Regular

Length of service 0 years
His tour began on Nov 19, 1968
Casualty was on Nov 25, 1968
In QUANG NAM, SOUTH VIETNAM
NON-HOSTILE, GROUND CASUALTY
ACCIDENTAL HOMICIDE
Body was recovered

My friend wanted to join the Marines in order to learn what really happened to his brother. He and is family were never satisfied with the explanation they'd gotten from the Pentagon.

My friend never really laughed in a carefree way, he never joked around, and was never unkind toward another human being.

[pinboy3niner]

48. Thanks, Octafish. Infinite possibilities, indeed...

It wasn't until 20 years later, when I found the family of one friend I lost, that I learned he'd been named after an uncle who was KIA at Anzio in WWII.

Joe Hearne Rufty, Salisbury, NC
July 21, 1917 - June 2, 1944
KIA Anzio Beach, Italy


Joe Hearne Rufty, Salisbury, NC
February 23, 1945 - January 29, 1970
KIA Thua Thien Province, I Corps, South Vietnam


R.I.P.

[gopiscrap]

23. Thank you for asking this question

I was seven when I was awakened by my mother to go to a friends house to spend the night. Why? Because there were firemen in the living room working on my dad, who was shot in Vietnam giving him high blood pressure and a host other problems. He died that snowy night a week before Christmas. I remember seeing my mom put on and take off her artificial leg morning and night. Why? Because she lived in a large urban German city and Hitler decided that the "future of Third Reich" were it's youth. My mom was made to march in the ice and snow through the Bavarian Mountains to a Catholic convent for the duration of the war. This gave her frostbite on her legs and feet and this when she became pregnant, caused gangrene and she had to have her left leg amputated along with the toes on her right foot. I saw and felt everyday of my childhood the ravages of war. War affects real people!

[madokie]

24. As I typed so many times

in this forum. War is an admission of failure. A failure to communicate, a failure to air out grievences, a failure to come to terms, a failure to think of the innocent and on and on. Even the Soldier having to fight the war is innocent. War is killing. Killing does not solve anything.

[David__77]

27. My father didn't die, but had life changing problems from Vietnam.

Classic PTSD... Ruined our family, that's for sure. He has several tours between 66 - 72. Was injured, many of his close colleagues were killed in a rocket attack.

He knows it was an immoral war. And he was never the same after it. I came later on, but I know all this from my parents and grandparents.

[bullwinkle428]

43. My mother's father died at Okinawa in 1945. She was only 7 at the time,

and I can't possibly imagine what kind of impact losing a parent to war would have on a kid that age.

K&R.

[Paladin]

44. I had a cousin who came home from Viet Nam and blew his brains out.

That was the end of any flag-waving for my family and myself. This country used my cousin's life like the rest of us use toilet paper. And I was stupid enough to believe we might have learned something from that war.

[Little Star]

47. k&r