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Fri Aug 23, 2013, 04:42 PM

Yo, DU. I think we all need to take a deep breath, just for a moment, to remember

Remember that it is precisely this kind of divisive, reciprocally disrespectful, culture warfare
that our Corporate Oligarchs LOVE to see on progressive websites. I love DU as forum to work
through sticky issues
like sexual-orientation, while hopefully not getting stuck at any point.

I've served on several juries recently where the Chelsea Manning topic was being fiercely debated,
to the point where people are feeling "hurt & deeply offended" by their DU counterparts in the debate.

Please remember to consider the need for cohesion and civility, and to not take things so damn personally,
while at the same time passionately standing for your personal truth on DU.

That is all. Peace out.

96 replies, 3498 views

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Arrow 96 replies Author Time Post
Reply Yo, DU. I think we all need to take a deep breath, just for a moment, to remember (Original post)
99th_Monkey Aug 2013 OP
pnwmom Aug 2013 #1
GalaxyHunter Aug 2013 #2
bunnies Aug 2013 #3
LineLineReply ^
Hong Kong Cavalier Aug 2013 #5
uppityperson Aug 2013 #6
Ms. Toad Aug 2013 #8
bluestate10 Aug 2013 #16
bunnies Aug 2013 #23
BlueStreak Aug 2013 #57
bunnies Aug 2013 #59
GoneFishin Aug 2013 #80
hfojvt Aug 2013 #81
Marrah_G Aug 2013 #87
Posteritatis Aug 2013 #43
NuclearDem Aug 2013 #63
Egalitarian Thug Aug 2013 #68
PowerToThePeople Aug 2013 #4
Ms. Toad Aug 2013 #7
99th_Monkey Aug 2013 #11
Ms. Toad Aug 2013 #37
99th_Monkey Aug 2013 #39
rhett o rick Aug 2013 #52
bluestate10 Aug 2013 #9
Ms. Toad Aug 2013 #12
bluestate10 Aug 2013 #29
Ms. Toad Aug 2013 #40
emsimon33 Aug 2013 #56
Ms. Toad Aug 2013 #58
MADem Aug 2013 #41
The empressof all Aug 2013 #73
99th_Monkey Aug 2013 #14
bluestate10 Aug 2013 #24
99th_Monkey Aug 2013 #26
bluestate10 Aug 2013 #33
99th_Monkey Aug 2013 #34
Ms. Toad Aug 2013 #42
Posteritatis Aug 2013 #46
winter is coming Aug 2013 #31
bluestate10 Aug 2013 #38
winter is coming Aug 2013 #48
Divernan Aug 2013 #54
backscatter712 Aug 2013 #35
bunnies Aug 2013 #60
winter is coming Aug 2013 #17
KittyWampus Aug 2013 #18
bunnies Aug 2013 #19
GeorgeGist Aug 2013 #25
backscatter712 Aug 2013 #32
NuclearDem Aug 2013 #66
NutmegYankee Aug 2013 #10
Bluenorthwest Aug 2013 #50
NutmegYankee Aug 2013 #65
TBF Aug 2013 #13
99th_Monkey Aug 2013 #21
TBF Aug 2013 #45
99th_Monkey Aug 2013 #72
Ms. Toad Aug 2013 #51
shenmue Aug 2013 #15
99th_Monkey Aug 2013 #22
cbdo2007 Aug 2013 #20
bravenak Aug 2013 #27
99th_Monkey Aug 2013 #28
bravenak Aug 2013 #30
99th_Monkey Aug 2013 #36
bravenak Aug 2013 #47
Hekate Aug 2013 #44
randome Aug 2013 #49
Eleanors38 Aug 2013 #53
randome Aug 2013 #83
Eleanors38 Aug 2013 #90
rhett o rick Aug 2013 #55
Demeter Aug 2013 #61
99th_Monkey Aug 2013 #75
Peacetrain Aug 2013 #62
ET Awful Aug 2013 #67
Peacetrain Aug 2013 #82
kpete Aug 2013 #64
liberal_at_heart Aug 2013 #69
99th_Monkey Aug 2013 #77
liberal_at_heart Aug 2013 #79
valerief Aug 2013 #70
felix_numinous Aug 2013 #71
99th_Monkey Aug 2013 #78
SleeplessinSoCal Aug 2013 #74
Democracyinkind Aug 2013 #76
Marrah_G Aug 2013 #84
99th_Monkey Aug 2013 #85
Marrah_G Aug 2013 #86
99th_Monkey Aug 2013 #89
Heidi Aug 2013 #94
kelliekat44 Aug 2013 #88
Heidi Aug 2013 #91
99th_Monkey Aug 2013 #92
Heidi Aug 2013 #93
99th_Monkey Aug 2013 #95
tavalon Aug 2013 #96

Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 04:43 PM

1. K & R. n/t

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 04:43 PM

2. fur sure!!

 

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 04:47 PM

3. I call bullshit.

Sorry. But I DO take these things personally. When DUers are taking swipes at the LGBT community dont expect me to sit down and shut up for the sake civility. Fuck that.

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Response to bunnies (Reply #3)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 04:49 PM

5. ^

This.

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Response to bunnies (Reply #3)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 04:54 PM

6. +++++++++

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Response to bunnies (Reply #3)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 04:56 PM

8. + a gazillion.

These "let's all talk about it politely" when lives are - in some cases literally - at stake is offensive.

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Response to bunnies (Reply #3)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 05:06 PM

16. A person having a view on LGBT people that don't match you own, but who aren't haters

isn't something that deserves fighting over. You seem to take a hot, intolerant view on the subject, I wish that you didn't but accept that you do and will deal with it. I don't think that any serious participant on DU that considers themselves a Moderate or Progressive hates LGBT people, or want anything BUT full economic and social rights for LGBT people. There are some haters lurking on DU and when given the chance, they take their shot, but if one studied how those people behaved socially or voted, one would see that they share nothing in common with Moderates or Progressives and are truly the enemy. Some valid members of DU can make that distinction, unfortunately some can't.

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Response to bluestate10 (Reply #16)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 05:14 PM

23. Yes. I DO treat intolerance with intolerance.

I have no use for those calling Chelsea an "it", refusing to call her "she", or insisting that ones genitals are the be all and end all of their being. I posted this in another thread but Im going to post it again because I really dont think you get it.


Can you imagine how difficult it must be to have the body of one gender but the mind of another? You try, all your life, to conform to what society expects from a person born in the body you have. You wear suits, join the military, date women, act "manly"... when all the time you feel as if your pretending to be someone youre not. And when you finally find the courage to say "no. This isnt ME" you have people trying to force you back into the definition you want out of. People focusing on whats between your legs rather than whats in your heart, soul and mind. And all you want is to be accepted for the person you are. Thats all she wants.

I think the least we could do, as caring, accepting, progressive human beings, is give that to her. Dont you?

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Response to bunnies (Reply #23)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 07:02 PM

57. What is this about, anyway?

Is this about the insistence that everybody now use the name Chelsea when talking about what BRADLEY Manning did?

That isn't intolerance. It is nonsense on the part of those making those demands. I will not talk about Bradley Manning's actions using some other name. He was BRADLEY Manning when he did his leaking, and that's all there is to it. If I ever get into a discussion about his future life as a woman, I promise I will do my best to refer to her as Chelsea. But if we are talking about the leaking episode, I ain't changing, because that would be completely absurd. Chelsea didn't do that. Bradley did.

If you think that is intolerant, you really need to think that one over from scratch. You risk alienating a lot of people who otherwise would support you.

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Response to BlueStreak (Reply #57)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 07:07 PM

59. Bradley IS Chelsea.

Thats the point.

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Response to bunnies (Reply #23)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 08:03 PM

80. Show the same tolerance you seek for those whose life experience does not give them

the ability to shift gears so quickly. I had a co-worker who I respect a lot. A kind, smart, helpful person who I will always think highly of. When they went through the transition it created a confusion which I can not articulate well, except to say that it was impossible to digest without allowing some time to pass. I was supportive and non-judgmental, but I still needed time.

Several other posters have made the same point.

Have some tolerance. Just a suggestion.

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Response to bunnies (Reply #23)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 08:18 PM

81. what is, though, the mind of a woman?

When you write

"you act 'manly'"

what is that supposed to mean? Smoking the same cigarettes as Mick Jagger?

Then I can't get no satisfaction.

I would say that there are many ways to "be a man". I have worn my hair long. In fact, by some standards, it is long right now. And I have also partially shaved my head. (and one of my friends called it "the ugliest haircut" (the jewelry store down the street was having an ugliest ring contest))

I have never joined the military, although sometimes I have regretted that (I could be retired (and honored) right this very now if I had. A classmate of mine is in the guard and posting pictures from Slovakia!! Will I ever get to visit Slovakia? I doubt it. I highly doubt it.)

Some men don't date girls. In fact, I have not dated a female myself since 1999 (not for total lack of trying though. Every couple of years I give myself another opportunity to be rejected). Other men avoid dating females on purpose.

Are we not men? Or are we Devo?

Given a wide latitude in gender styles, I am not sure what somebody wants when they want to change genders. One thing they seem to want is for the world to treat them differently than they do at present, but that is something that lots of people, of either gender, want.

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Response to bluestate10 (Reply #16)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 09:52 PM

87. When your views are bigoted then expect to be called on it

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Response to bunnies (Reply #3)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 05:46 PM

43. Yep. It's easy for someone to say "don't take it personally" when they don't have to. (nt)

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Response to bunnies (Reply #3)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 07:18 PM

63. Damn straight.

Sorry to the OP, but I don't tolerate transphobia. This is also an important learning moment for people who aren't familiar with trans* issues.

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Response to bunnies (Reply #3)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 07:23 PM

68. Hear, hear! Thank you very much. n/t

 

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 04:48 PM

4. That is over a 1/2 lb of chill. n/t

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 04:54 PM

7. When it is your life,

or the life of someone you love, it IS personal.

When you are being told that your closest friend, who transitioned recently in her 5th decade of life is still male because she hasn't surgically removed the boy bits and pieces she was born with, it IS personal.

When you accepted a foster child into your home following a suicide attempt, and listened to him spending nearly every night banging his head against a pole in your basement - trying to make the male voice inside vanish from the female body it inhabited, it IS personal.

And being told to "chill" because "Corporate Oligarchs LOVE to see {divisive, reciprocally disrespectful, culture warfare} on progressive websites" is hurtful, and patronizing. It is the equivalent of being told to get to the back of the bus because the scene you're causing is attracting too much attention.

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Response to Ms. Toad (Reply #7)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 05:02 PM

11. I appreciate your strong feelings, but am curious.

Is your post intending to argue for a personal sense of entitlement to be
"hurtful, disrespectful, etc." towards others on DU, regardless of DU Terms of
Service?

btw - I have some transgender friends as well, and DO have some strong feelings
about this myself.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #11)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 05:33 PM

37. I give pretty wide latitude to people whose existence is being attacked.

I don't think it is the best way to win hearts and minds, but the reaction to lash out is understandable when the same poster - in 7 posts insists on referring to Manning using male pronouns, and insists that "he" is a man until surgery changes him (which aside from anything else - is legally incorrect in many states), when none of those posts are hidden, or when - after having posts hidden for insisting that Manning is a "man" a member repeats his contention in a new post - and a jury leaves it 6-0.

Your post was the emotional equivalent of telling someone being stoned that he is not permitted to call those stoning him names because it looks bad to those watching DU.

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Response to Ms. Toad (Reply #37)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 05:37 PM

39. Thank you for your thoughtful reply

I've kind of stayed away from the fray so far (at least until this OP) so
I do appreciate your reportage from the trenches. It is helping me to
grock more fully why some are so pissed.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #39)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 06:22 PM

52. Another thing that has added to the tension was the closing of Meta. The bullies are pissed

and loaded for bear.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 04:58 PM

9. You likely served on a jury that deleted one of my posts today.

All in all, I felt more sorrow for the four people that chose to delete than I felt anger. On the surface, they seemed to have been more enraged about my insistence that Manning is a man until he undergoes a sex change operation. If Manning wants to call himself a woman, so be it. What I know is that if I and other rational people saw him on the street, what we would see is a man.

Hate happens when a person dislikes a person for what nature made him or her. Nature made Manning Transgendered. That is the way that it is. He should be allowed to have a sex change operation because not allowing that is cruel punishment, but until that happens, in my view, Manning is a man.

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Response to bluestate10 (Reply #9)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 05:03 PM

12. Tell it to my closest friend

who is legally, and in every other sense, a woman - and who still has all of her original boy parts.

You need to educate yourself, because your comments are ignorant (of whether it a surgical procedure is required to be a woman) and hurtful (because you continue to insist on things which are just plain wrong and seem to be making no effort to learn from the people who are asking you to stop punching them).

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Response to Ms. Toad (Reply #12)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 05:20 PM

29. It is easy enough to call a person Ignorant. I favor Manning getting a sex change operation

and the government paying for that operation, given that it is imprisoning Manning for an act of conscience. But not knowing Manning or your friend, I would see a man or woman if I met that person on the street. If that view doesn't suit your tastes, too bad.

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Response to bluestate10 (Reply #29)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 05:40 PM

40. Who says she wants a sex change operation?

None of the reports I have seen which are directly attributed to Chelsea Manning suggest she is seeking a sex change operation. And a trans* woman does not have to have a sex change operation in order to live as a woman or to be legally or socially treated as one.

Please stop being disrespectful of trans* individuals. When you are asked to use female pronouns, use them. When you are given a name, use it.

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Response to Ms. Toad (Reply #40)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 06:56 PM

56. Thank you for providing clarity and insight

I went back and changed the pronouns on a post regarding PFC Manning to reflect the insight and sensitivity you have provided.

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Response to emsimon33 (Reply #56)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 07:05 PM

58. Thank you!

It means a lot!

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Response to bluestate10 (Reply #29)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 05:42 PM

41. This is a subject that many don't understand.

I think you don't quite have a clear understanding, either.

Many trans people never get a sex change operation. Some just do hormones and remain "preoperative" their whole lives.

Each case is different.

If you met Manning on the street you might not see "a man." Manning is five foot two, slightly built, and in a wig and makeup and women's clothes, you'd probably see a young woman.

Transgender/transexual and intersex people have, up to now, been treated as extremely rare, bizarre, 'not the norm,' and a one-off, in general. We're now learning that this circumstance of birth is not as uncommon as we once thought--it's not one in a hundred, sure, but it's not one in a million, either. People covered it up out of some misguided sense of shame, when actually it's just that the wrapper doesn't match what's inside. Nothing to be ashamed about--just a bit of an error on the old assembly line, something that can be fixed.

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Response to bluestate10 (Reply #29)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 07:29 PM

73. I think that the medical community has come far in this determination

I would lean towards their assessment that gender is not determined by ones genitals. For those who may not know anyone who is transgendered personally I can understand it may take a beat to get use to changing ones internal identification of how you have come to view them....But really It's no big deal to call her Chelsea....We will all get use to it.

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Response to bluestate10 (Reply #9)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 05:05 PM

14. I think you've made your views well known elsewhere

and now here too.

I am curious though, as to why you have SO MUCH ENERGY wrapped up in this debate?

At SOME point, there comes a time to respectfully agree to disagree, right?

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #14)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 05:15 PM

24. The issue that I see is that those who view themselves as tolerant and understanding

are exactly the opposite. A person expressing a viewpoint that a Transgendered person is the sex that person was born with is one viewpoint. That viewpoint isn't ignorant or hateful. I was born straight, some people were born Gay, others born Transgendered, my view is that I have no more or less rights, that is simply how I think. What I find offensive is people assuming, those are people that if I knew them I would shun.

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Response to bluestate10 (Reply #24)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 05:17 PM

26. Do you view yourself as "tolerant and understanding"?

Just curious.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #26)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 05:23 PM

33. I don't discriminate at all against anyone. BTW, do you consider yourself tolerant or understanding?

I have the personal history to back up my claim of who I am, do you?

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Response to bluestate10 (Reply #33)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 05:27 PM

34. Listen, you are the one who was complaining about peeps on DU

claiming they are "tolerant or understanding" but not acting that way. <-- that was you, not me.

I didn't ask you if you "discriminated".

So can you answer my question without trying to deflect it?

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Response to bluestate10 (Reply #33)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 05:45 PM

42. You ARE discriminating

merely by refusing to use the gender pronouns and names you are asked to use. It is arrogant to insist that you are tolerant and understanding at the same time you are actively being disrespectful of trans* individuals.

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Response to bluestate10 (Reply #33)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 05:50 PM

46. This may be the least self-aware post I've seen on this site in days. (nt)

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Response to bluestate10 (Reply #24)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 05:22 PM

31. The "viewpoint" that a transgender person is the sex they were born with essentially

denies that person his or her gender identity. You're telling the transgender person that your opinion of what their gender is is more valid than their opinion: to wit, they're "wrong". How is that different from or more acceptable than telling a gay person that their sexuality is "wrong" because it doesn't map to their sex in the way you believe it should?

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Response to winter is coming (Reply #31)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 05:36 PM

38. I am not telling a Transgendered person anything. Have you not understood that already?

People can view themselves as whatever they want, I have no say in that unless those people encroach on other people's rights. Transgendered people haven't encroached on anyone's rights. I made what was a simple statement, that in the absence of any other information or personal contact with another person, I see them as what I see before me, nothing more, nothing less. Once I know the person, I view them as they want to be viewed unless that person is an ass. BTW, I have several Gay family members and fiercely defend their right to be what God made them - al all times.

You don't know who I am, don't make assumptions about what my social views are. That tendency is what enrages me in regards to some DU members. They make assumptions about what is in President Obama's heart because the President says or don't say one or more of their hot button words. I see attacks on lifelong, strong Democrats because those people don't mouth hot button phrases. It is time for people making assumptions to grow up, IMO.

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Response to bluestate10 (Reply #38)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 05:54 PM

48. I'm assuming this is your post.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3521459

Manning is a man until a sex change operation makes him a female.

This shit with calling him "She" in the absence of said sex change operation is fucking insane.


That is not the same thing as assuming that a stranger on the street dressed as a man is a man. You now know that Manning identifies as female, yet refuse to acknowledge her as such unless/until her sex matches her gender.

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Response to winter is coming (Reply #48)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 06:33 PM

54. +1000 - Hoisted on his/her own petard. Good catch!

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Response to bluestate10 (Reply #24)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 05:29 PM

35. What can I say? I'm intolerant of bigotry. n/t

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Response to backscatter712 (Reply #35)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 07:10 PM

60. me too.

Shame on us!

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Response to bluestate10 (Reply #9)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 05:08 PM

17. So, if aliens abducted you and switched your genitalia, that would make you the opposite gender?

It's not about body parts.

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Response to bluestate10 (Reply #9)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 05:08 PM

18. At this point the gender/sex issue has been explained to you. So your unwillingness to listen, learn

and be considerate of others is deliberate.

Some transgender people don't want to have sex change.

It's about gender identity, not physical plumbing.

If this is the hill you wish to die on, so be it.

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Response to bluestate10 (Reply #9)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 05:08 PM

19. And I feel sorry for you for thinking

that genitals define a person and for lacking the ability to accept people for who they really are. Would you call a masculine looking woman a "he" because of how she appears to you on the street? Thats pretty sad, really.

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Response to bluestate10 (Reply #9)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 05:15 PM

25. When you grow up ...

you'll be a man. Until then you're a child.

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Response to bluestate10 (Reply #9)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 05:23 PM

32. I'll explain it once more.

And I'll use short words and simple sentences that even you can understand.

Gender is in the brain, not between the legs.

Chelsea Manning wants hormone therapy to make her body's gender correspond with her mind's gender. She's been female since birth.

It's not that hard.

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Response to bluestate10 (Reply #9)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 07:22 PM

66. Sex is not gender. Sex is not gender.

Now say it with me:

SEX

IS

NOT

GENDER

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 04:59 PM

10. I remember the LGBT vs Black fight after prop 8 passed in 08.

Now that was horrible to endure.

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Response to NutmegYankee (Reply #10)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 06:17 PM

50. There was no such thing outside the minds of those trying to cause such a thing.

Your comment precludes the existence of black GLB or T people, as if all GLBT people are white. It is not only inaccurate it is veering toward the racist side of things. And anyone who claimed such a divide existed was also playing with racist as well as homophobic tropes. Some did so, but my guess is that most of them were straight white people, god bless them.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #50)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 07:21 PM

65. You're joking right?

I was here, and I saw it right here. In fact, it led to a a lot of DUers leaving the site.

As for the accusations of racism or homophobia, just make them openly towards me and I'll let the jury system handle it.

As for some history:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=221x173419
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8034539
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4399114

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 05:04 PM

13. Sensitivity Training -

find a class and sign up. Oh, is that too personal?


There are folks that are being killed because they are transgendered. I read this story just this afternoon -- http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Transgender-Woman-Assault-Death-Harlem-New-York-City-Hate-Crime-220755371.html

With these kinds of events happening it is not surprising that folks are going to speak out on the issue. Maybe try to have a bit of empathy and stand in someone else's shoes for a moment.

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Response to TBF (Reply #13)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 05:11 PM

21. Yes I know

that transgendered people are being treated horribly, in many ways. <--this grieves me too.

The Manning thing is really bringing it to the forefront, which may be
good in the long run, but not so good if you're on receiving end of a
hate crime.

I don't think anything you've said in your post convinces me that it isn't
a good idea once in awhile to take a deep breath and remember the
much bigger picture.

Why do some hear this as me saying "shut the fuck up"? .. because that
is emphatically and clearly NOT what I said. I in fact encouraged people
to "passionately stand up for your personal truth" <-- did u miss that part?

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #21)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 05:49 PM

45. Yeah, "shut the fuck up"

is what it sounds like. It may not be what you intended but for some folks this is their lives everyday and it is very important. People are dying because of the bigotry of others. That's why it's not ok to just sweep it under the rug or tell folks to "chill out". It makes them feel that they shouldn't have said anything. That it's not a real issue. It is.

If you don't want to talk about it that's fine - just trash the threads. Why make others feel like they can't talk about something that is important to them?

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Response to TBF (Reply #45)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 07:27 PM

72. Chill, but also continue "passionately standing for your personal truth" <-- I did say this

STFU. <-- not this.

What is it that makes people project stuff into my words that isn't even there?

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #21)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 06:17 PM

51. Trans* people - and to a lesser extent allies

live this every day of our lives - listening to the lunchroom chatter at work when Ann Coulter comes on and the mAnn Coulter jokes start, sitting through family members hateful comments about the "he/she" while you are still invisible to them, grieving the loss of a beloved member of your community - simultaneously with reports from the media repeatedly misgendering her and fixating on the "odd" clothing she was wearing and her male genitalia when she was discovered tied to a concrete block at the bottom of a local reservoir.

When something brings trans* issues to the headlines, it comes to us with that daily backdrop of painful noise. In addition, DU has a shameful history of telling LGBT individuals to stop being so demanding. To stop insisting on getting magic ponies. For the good of the cause - because we don't want to give ammunition to our enemies, or because now is not the right time, or whatever the excuse of the day is to tell us to be quiet. Often - at least by people trying to be polite - directed at both sides.

But that is like telling a bullied person and the bully that both of them need to behave more politely. That is why we hear you saying "shut the fuck up." Because that is how it feels to someone who is being bullied when they are told that they need to behave more politely.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 05:06 PM

15. This is DU

I need a ton of those chill pills.

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Response to shenmue (Reply #15)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 05:14 PM

22. Well this is a "250,000 mgs." dose

which according to one calculation posted upstream is "over a 1/2 lb of chill".

Not quite a "ton" but maybe metaphorically.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 05:10 PM

20. Lack of common sense will destroy us long before our divisiveness.

Once you've gone off the deep end, it's that much harder to climb back to reality. Ask the conservatives.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 05:18 PM

27. 250000 mg?

Overdose of chill that is.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #27)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 05:19 PM

28. "Over 1/2 a pound" according to one calculation upstream. ~nt

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #28)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 05:22 PM

30. Cool.

I'll take one then and chip a piece off if I get too hot and bothered.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #30)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 05:32 PM

36. lol - nice to see that SOMEONE is keeping their sense of humor. ~nt~

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #36)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 05:52 PM

47. Somebody's gotta do it.

We have a lot of Very Serious People here.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 05:48 PM

44. KnR. Peace.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 05:59 PM

49. Absolutely!

Every discussion on such a topic needs to begin from the standpoint of 'How do I convince this person he/she is being wrong or disrespectful?'

Until you have iron-clad evidence that the person is being purposely hateful.

I try to 'judge' fellow DUers from the point of view of someone like my dead Grandmother. She was something of a racist but she had a kind heart. She was also a hard core Baptist fundamentalist.

But I always treated her with respect -and corrected her where she was wrong- and in her final years she told me many times, "Not all the good ones are Christian." Meaning me.

Those are the victories worth winning. Not the ones where one side tries to outshout the other.

There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.

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Response to randome (Reply #49)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 06:28 PM

53. Thank you. An engineer told me: "Intolerance means nothing works." nt

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Response to Eleanors38 (Reply #53)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 09:40 PM

83. Intolerance by either side, yes. I would agree with your engineer friend.

That doesn't mean 'tolerance' for bigotry, as the newest Republican talking points try to make us believe. But working to get people on your side is almost always worth the effort.

There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.

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Response to randome (Reply #83)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 11:44 PM

90. True, that. GOP talking points are used by Democrats against

each other more than the GOPers use them.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 06:39 PM

55. It is important that we argue among ourselves. When we stop that we will be Republicans.

But it is essential that we remain respectful. And I beg juries to be consistent and hide all posts that attack a poster. You know want is disparaging and what is frivolous. We need to attack POV and not posters.

And please everyone, put the bullies on ignore.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 07:14 PM

61. Or, We COULD Just not talk about it at all...

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Response to Demeter (Reply #61)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 07:35 PM

75. That would completely miss my point

Chill but also please "passionately stand for your personal truth" <--you may have missed this part>

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 07:16 PM

62. Sometimes 99 its a "walk a mile in my shoes" moment

I ended up refusing to serve on a jury today, because , I realized as I read the post that was being pondered that I had not walked a mile in that persons shoes.

So sometimes you get yourself educated before you say or in our case type anything.

A person can have the most innocent of intent, but at the wrong time, it can be the wrong thing to say, the wrong question to ask, the wrong comment to make.

Everyone can only do the best they can do with the information they have at hand..

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Response to Peacetrain (Reply #62)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 07:23 PM

67. Before you judge someone, walk a mile in their shoes . . . .

Then forget about it, because not only will you be a mile away from them, you've got their shoes!

Sorry, couldn't resist

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Response to ET Awful (Reply #67)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 08:20 PM

82. I needed that

been one of those days

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 07:20 PM

64. NEVER

!

peace, kp

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 07:24 PM

69. I don't think so. I'm not going to take a chill pill. I have seen a couple of posts where

people have taken responsibility for unknowingly being prejudice, apologizing, and promising to try and be more accepting. That is commendable, but there are also people here who feel they are justified in how they feel and that cannot be tolerated. I have a bisexual daughter and there is no way I would take a chill pill if someone where insulting the bisexual community.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #69)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 07:38 PM

77. I resemble that remark

since I'm one of the ones being "educated" by the debate.

In OP, I did urge everyone to continue "passionately standing for your personal truth".

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #77)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 07:46 PM

79. Not many people are willing to acknowledge their mistakes and try to correct them, so if

you are one of the ones doing that, that's great. You can't do anything about the past, but you can certainly do something about the future. Treat those you previously regarded with fear with love and you will do fine.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 07:24 PM

70. If the internet hurts people's feelings, they shouldn't be on the internet.

I'm so tired of the weak-kneed who get the vapors over nothing. If someone is fighting dirty, call them out or put them on Ignore. "My feelings are hurt," annoys the hell out of me.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 07:26 PM

71. Yes!!

I'm chilling










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Response to felix_numinous (Reply #71)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 07:40 PM

78. Awesome .. I'm totally listening while I post ..thanx. ~nt

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 07:29 PM

74. I appreciate the need to "chill". I doubt we can agree. I wish we could divide forums differently

Have a forum just for NSA surveillance issues and news items. If one wants to get into that minefield, one would know what was coming. I fall into the habit of reading what is "trending now". I'm stopping that. I gather it works for the site, but I think today it is dividing the community and makes it difficult to get important issues other than NSA discussed.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 07:37 PM

76. ALAMO!! ALAMO!!

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 09:46 PM

84. How about instead people stop making bigoted remarks?

How fucking difficult is it to stop and think before you hit post?

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Response to Marrah_G (Reply #84)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 09:49 PM

85. Yes, that.

a moment for a deep breath, can work wonders.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #85)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 09:51 PM

86. I can just imagine what our trans DUer's are feeling reading the responses to this thread

Personally I would be heartbroken at alot of the responses

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Response to Marrah_G (Reply #86)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 10:21 PM

89. That's what I'm getting too.

and it is sad, except that I do think some people are getting educated a bit, including me.

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Response to Marrah_G (Reply #84)

Sat Aug 24, 2013, 04:34 AM

94. Thank you. It is _just_ that easy.



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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 10:00 PM

88. Thanks for your post. But it appears to be hopeless. nt

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Sat Aug 24, 2013, 01:53 AM

91. "Take a chill pill" = "Back of the bus." (nt)

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Response to Heidi (Reply #91)

Sat Aug 24, 2013, 03:03 AM

92. It makes me sad that it's being taken that way

.. that couldn't be further from my intent...

whatever.

I tried.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #92)

Sat Aug 24, 2013, 04:10 AM

93. No, not "whatever." There are people in this community who are told

every election cycle to simmer down lest their insistence on equal rights and equal respect cost the Dems an election. Their concerns are described by many so-called progressives as fringe issues (as if expecting to be treated as equal under the law is some crazy, futuristic idea). And then, when they _do_ go to the back of the bus in order to support what the party claims is the "greater good" (getting Dems elected), they're accused of poutrage and pearl clutching for asking fellow progressives to treat LGBT people with respect.

I'm not gay, but I'm also not oblivious to the raft of utter horsesh!t my LGBT brothers and sisters endure, day in and day out, from the very people who they could most reasonably expect to support their quest for equality and respect. I mean, how difficult is it--really--to refer to Cpl. Manning as "Chelsea"? The learning curve could not possibly be that steep.

No, not "whatever."

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Response to Heidi (Reply #93)

Sat Aug 24, 2013, 01:18 PM

95. I have no problem with Chelsea

I've been consistently posting in favor of her sentence being pardoned,
or at least commuted to "time served" so she can go free and get on
with her life.

My problem is that people get in such a frenzy that it's impossible to
have a conversation, ANY kind of conversation -- which by definition
involves BOTH give and take, share and listen. <-- this was point of OP.

When this happens, no one benefits, least of all people who are already
struggling to have their voices heard.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Sat Aug 24, 2013, 06:17 PM

96. I couldn't have said it better, but I'll add to it.

Know thyself.

I am, for instance, not an antivaccer, but my child was brutally hurt by the 18 month vaccines and is now an 18 year old who got his first vaccine since 18 months last week. I used to try to be the voice of reason around here to be cautious and thoughtful about vaccines and not to just follow someone else's schedule. I quickly learned that people here have great hatred for any thoughtful discussion of vaccines and that it turns out that they can hit my hot buttons with amazing skill and speed. Therefore, I rarely read and never respond to any of the discussions about vaccines because I know I'll get pissed and nobody wins.

If there is something one cannot discuss without landing in the mud with their fellow DUers, they would do well to understand that, and back away. Flame wars rarely end with one party saying "Wow, You're right and I'm wrong. Thanks!" I've seen that maybe three times in 10 years and yeah, it's beautiful to see, but really the odds aren't in your favor.

It really is okay if someone on the internet, specifically DU, is wrong. Really, it is. Unless you can remain calm, kind and thoughtful, you just add to the noise and nobody wins. Besides, we are a team (of cats) so why try to score on your fellow team members?

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